Fat Girl Smut on Early Release (IYKYK) and Fat Positive Romance

Everyone deserves to see themselves reflected in every single trope and microtrope. Today, I am joined by Meg of Fat Girl Smut to examine the radical joy of seeing larger bodies in romance and the specific humor of the coming early microtrope. We talk about the empathy gap, why erotica is a necessary space for healing, and how to find beauty in your own body exactly as it is right now.

Key Takeaways

• Why reading about experiences different from your own is the fastest way to increase your understanding of the world.
• How this trope brings humor, light-heartedness, and evidence of extreme desire to an intense scene.
• A candid discussion on the exhaustion of Ozempic culture and the importance of accepting your body without waiting to reach an "ideal" weight.
• Why reading about consensual, female-prioritized pleasure can be a restorative experience for survivors.

CONNECT WITH FAT GIRL SMUT:

Instagram

People Mentioned

Amie @ Curvy Girls Read (Episode)

Grand Gesture Bookstore (Instagram)

Sabina Nordqvist (Episode)

Ruby Dixon (Author)

BOOKS/AUTHORS MENTIONED:

The Wedding Date – Jasmine Guillory (Amazon)

Against a Wall – Cate C. Wells (Amazon)

The Tyrant Alpha’s Rejected Mate – Cate C. Wells (Amazon)

A Chance at Love – Beverly Jenkins (Amazon)

Every Chance You Get – Sloan Spencer (Amazon)

Choosing a Forever – Daisy Wren (Amazon)

After Hours on Milagro Street – Angelina M. Lopez (Amazon)

The Catch – Leonor Soliz (Amazon)

Yours for Now – Leonor Soliz (Amazon)

PS You’re Intolerable – Julia Wolf (Amazon)

Cocky – Taahesi B. Williams (Amazon)

Breaking Away – Sookh Kaur (Amazon)

The Princess Trap – Talia Hibbert (Amazon)

Personal – Alexandria House (Amazon)

They Wouldn't Dare – Deanna Grey (Amazon)

Full list of books mentioned (Doc)

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Everyone deserves to see themselves reflected in every single trope and microtrope. Today we're talking with Meg of Fat Girl Smut, and we're talking about the microtrope of coming early. This is such a fun conversation. We talk a lot about representation, why it's so important, and a little bit of recommendations for the two pump chumps and more. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast contains mature content intended for adult audiences only. Hello, Meg. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. If you could start by telling us who you are and a bit about your reader journey.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, I'm Meg. I run a Fat GirlSMUT on Instagram mostly, but I do technically have a TikTok. I was always a reader when I was young and I fell out of it like we all do in school when like reading becomes more of a chore and less about enjoyment. And then I got into college and I was reading art history textbooks, which do not recommend as fun time reading. And then I was working a really terrible job that I compare to factory farming ads. That's what I was doing. And I was just looking for any source of joy. And I think my mother-in-law got me The Wedding Date by Jasmine Gillary as a Christmas gift, and I devoured it. And I was like instantly. I'm like, I need more of this. It was the first romance I had ever read, and it was the first time I'd seen like a body that sounded like it could be mine in a book, and it was radical. And I just I couldn't stop once I started.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Oh, that's what an introduction to romance, right? Like, I feel like a lot of us maybe we rediscovered it through erotica. Like, so for my story, it's like my livido was shot after kid number two, was pushing myself to read self-development because like I'm constantly wanting to learn and better myself and be the best parent I can. And then found erotica on Kindle and was like, hello, and read like 10 of those in two months, was like, okay. But then like any platform, it tended to show me white bodies, skinny bodies, right? Like your typical male-female pairings. And then a few years in, I was like, I'm not reading anything that looks like me. I want to find more of that. And I had to push to try to find that. So for you to get that right off the bat, I think is so incredibly special.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

It was truly like a mind-blowing experience because like I've always been a reader. Like, even when I wasn't reading a lot, like I was reading sci-fi and fantasy, like those are my genres. I loved those books and they mean so much to me. But finding a diverse and different body in those books is so difficult. I'm pretty sure my mother-in-law had originally bought me one of the Binti books, which I don't know if you've read, but they're really incredible African sci-fi books. And I loved them, but I had already purchased them. So she went back to it was probably like Target or something in our like Chicago suburb. And she came back with two different books. One of them is I Am Not Your Mexican Daughter, and the other one was Jasmine Gillary. And I just, I was like, oh my God, this is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yes. That's so cool. And then what happened next? Like, were you like, I'm devouring this and I need more?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Pretty much. Like I live in Portland and I lived at Portland in the time. So like I'm in a book city. So my mom's a huge reader, too. Like my mom without audiobooks reads like maybe 20 books a month.

unknown 3:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

And so it's not like I wasn't going to bookstores. It's just I wasn't picking up anything that I was reading at the end of the day. And so I remember, I think I finished the wedding date, and I remember going to Powell's after work and getting the wedding party because I was like, I need to know what happens. Like I need to see what happens with these characters because I'm obsessed and it's so good. And it felt so relatable in a millennial. Like I'm right on the edge of like millennial Gen C, like just age-wise and who I socialized with. And so to see characters that felt like they could be me or my friends was so radical.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yes. And you said you did read like some sci-fi and some fantasy before that. So it sounds like you were still exploring, but just having a hard time finding something that you could relate to, which I think is so important with romance. I think that the beauty of romance is we can see ourselves reflected in such incredible ways and in ways that we maybe didn't even realize, but also being able to see other people's experiences in ways that makes us more empathetic or more understanding for their experience. I recently read Deanna Gray's They Wouldn't Dare. And in it, the male main character has OCD. And I don't think I maybe I've read one or two books where there's OCD in it, but not from a trauma response. It was usually like a stalker who's like psychologically got some stuff going on and he's got OCD, right? But like his OCD looks different. Whereas this character, it was trauma from being in foster homes and like always having to be clean, and being clean meant you're in control, and that's all he could control. And so like him washing his hands and washing his hands and washing his hands, and then the female main character just being so incredibly understanding, and instead of being like, you need to stop, was like, how many more times, more cycles do you have before you're good? And just her understanding of that. And I was just like, I don't have that experience, but if I met someone who did, I would be way more understanding than just being like, Oh, well, you're different, and that's interesting. Okay, turning away, right? Like instead, I can empathize.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

And that's one of the hugest things for me, like, with giving people access to books and books where they feel pain, because those experiences are so nuanced, and like having access to understanding like where people are coming from and different lived experiences. At the end of the day, no one's lived the same life as you. So, like, you need to learn how to have empathy for people who've experienced a different life than you. And reading is the number one way to increase your empathy gap. I got really obsessed in 2019, probably with like empathy gaps and the best way to reach out to people and have comprehension. Fun fact, I was a phone banker for Planned Parenthood in 2016. So, like, one of the things that I cared so much about was like teaching people to have empathy for others. Because if you don't have empathy, you don't understand why something's important. The way that you get to increase your empathy is by reading about it. And I just think that's amazing. Like, how was how cool is that that you like can increase your own understanding of the world by reading about something and reading and enjoying something?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yes. So you have Fat Girl and Smut in your username, which I love. Obviously, this is we read Smut. Why was that important for you? As you were like, okay, I'm gonna dip my toe into Bookstagram. What was that process for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Starting my bookstream, I don't know if I've shared this story anywhere. It's not the way that people got into Bookstream. Like, I read a lot. That's one of the things that if you followed my Instagram doll, you've probably seen I read what I would consider an unhealthy amount.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

I don't know what you're talking about, but no such thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

And the thing was, I was working factory farming ads. I had been at this company for seven years. I had gone two years without a raise post-pandemic, and I had worked at this company through the pandemic in an office. I don't know how they did that. It was wild. And my coworkers who I'm luckily friends with, they were so kind and they were like, you need to work less at this job. We need to find a way for you to care less and work less at this job. And I started Fat Girl Smut because they wanted me to work on something that wasn't work at work. Which is like not something that you should ever do, or nothing I would recommend. But it was a situation where I was like falling into depression. I was overworked, and like my husband was in dental hygiene school, so I got to see them like maybe eight hours total for a week. It was just like really rough mentally. And I was reading and I wanted to talk about these books, but my coworkers are like, we're not reading this with you. I tried so hard to get one of them on the Ruby Dixon wagon with me. I'm like, I just need someone else to confirm there's crack in these books.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

I know. I have talked to Ruby Dixon. She does plan on being on the podcast. It's just a matter of scheduling. So look out for that one because I have read over 25.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Maybe close to 50 of her books.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

I think I'm close to 50 because I did Ice Planet, Ice Home, the Dragon series. The Dragon series slaps and you can nobody talks about it.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Like the audiobooks, too, are so good. You can listen to them so quickly, and they're so good.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

So good.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Ah and I'm I want to say I'm like 80% sure the second FMC in that series is plus size. I'm not positive.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Yeah, but she's always very purposeful in the diversity of her characters. I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Oh, it's so good. It's so good. But they were like, we can't talk to you about these because you're reading at an incredible rate. You have undiagnosed ADHD, so you're working while you're reading them. And like you're plowing through ads, you're plowing through books. Put this energy somewhere. And I'm a graphic designer by trade. Like I went to art school, I have those degrees, and so I just was like, okay, fine. I think I was following Kirby Girls Read Romance. Amy is incredible. She's one of my favorite influencers on Bookstagram. And I was like, I could do this. Like, I've I've read some books that I don't think I've seen her talk about. I could probably do this.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

And that's how I started my books to group. That is so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Like, what a way to get into it. And then your friends being like, you need to put this energy somewhere that is not your job. Kudos to them for looking out for you.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

I'm truly so lucky. And because of like this work, now I work at Grand Gesture, which is the romance-only bookstore in Portland. I love Catherine so much. I'm obsessed with her and she knows it. But she hired me because like I'm such a romance reader that I was recommending books, and she's like, oh, you're hand selling for me, and I'm not paying you. And so I started working there part-time. I was doing my full-time job, and then I started doing Fat Girls Month. So last year I was basically doing three jobs. And I was lucky enough to quit that job in December of last year. And now I'm just freelancing, working on getting some illustration side business going on. But I'm really fucking lucky that I get to do this.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yes. And I'm sure you feel mentally so much better than when you were working at the other job and just consuming and consuming all the stuff. And I feel like there's just something so special about conversations with other people who get it, right? Because I think that so often the romance industry gets a bad rep.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

It's wild. The things that people feel comfortable saying to you when you're like in a place where you're like obviously very pro-romance. Like sometimes people walk up to me in the store and they're like, I don't really read romance, but what would you recommend me? And I'm like, okay, let's pause and talk about like your internalized misogyny on why you don't like romance.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Yeah, you can learn so much from it. Like we've talked about already, so much empathy, so much about other people and their experiences. I think people get this idea of romance is 50 shades. And it's not. Like that is a very sub-genre of romance. Like you could have historical romance, you can have science fiction romance, you can have speculative fiction romance, you can have urban romance, and then urban romance being like a one of two categories: either streetlit romance, so like more African-American street romance, or you can have urban romance, which is like modern times with vampires and werewolves. Like there's so much variety to this. Amish romance. That's what I used to read when I was a teenager, and they wouldn't let me read anything else.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

I am working, and if anyone has a recommendation, I am begging you. I am on the hunt for an Amish romance that is dirty. Like I want it so badly because I think it would be such a good book because you have two people that have never had like sexual encounters that don't have education, that are like forced together. I'm like, please, someone must have written this and I need it in my bones.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

So if anyone knows, send Meg an email or a message and get her that book.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

It has to be out there, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Somewhere for sure. Yeah, oh my gosh. I'm trying to think. I feel like the only reason they would let us read the Amish romance is because it was closed door or fade to black. And so it was always implied what happened. Right. But I know that the Oh my goodness, what is the religion outside of where it's just like just a step outside of Amish Methodist? You might be able to find something that's like Amish adjacent, where they still live very simply, but they have electricity. Or like they do make their own clothes, but they work in like their communities.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

The only thing that I'm thinking of that I know it isn't is oh my gosh, the Judaism that like doesn't allow technology. I can't think of the name of it right now.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Somebody sent us a message, y'all know.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

I haven't been religious since I was 12. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

I know. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian cult, and I got out when I was like 21. So good. Good for you. Well done. My mom left, so I was like, oh, I guess we're going now. That was just how it went. Um, but I it kind of like my eyes were open that it was a cult when I was 18 or I was 17. I finished high school and I wanted to go to a Bible college, like a secular Bible college-ish. So it was like a regular one. And they were like, oh no, you're going to this unaccredited one that we're associated with, or you don't have a home to come back to. And I was like, oh, this is a cult. Man. But like having no experience, no money. I didn't know how to drive a car. Like, literally could not do anything for myself.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

You're so trapped in those situations.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

But yeah, so if anyone has an Amish romance, send it that is open door and spicy, send it to Meg.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Back to what we were talking about previously. I think erotica gets a bad rap even within romance readers. And I've had a lot of conversations because, again, I work at a romance bookstore and people are weirdly comfortable telling me things. But like one of the things that I think is really interesting is like people who don't appreciate the safe space that erotica can be for people. A lot of people, especially essay survivors, want to read those experiences in a way that makes it clear that A, it's not their fault because that's such an internalized belief. And B, that like some sort of reckoning comes for whatever perpetrator. Like dark romance and dark erotica are like very important genres that I feel get a really bad rap.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

I'm happy that that's kind of where I started was the erotica, because then I was able to dial it back a little bit. But it wasn't, it was like, oh, they're in a sex club. Do those exist? Can I find one? I want to find one. Then I went off to that side. But then, like, just reading the romance, I was like, this is great too. Like, I was able to enjoy it and also can usually I'm reading a sci-fi or like a fantasy, very low-lift fantasy. I can't do like high fantasy. Uh sci-fi or fantasy. I'm listening to an audiobook that's typically a BIPOC contemporary romance. I'm usually reading an erotica, and then I'll have something on like my phone that I'm reading. So, like having that variety, I think, helps. But then erotica is such a great palette cleanser, too. If you're like, I don't know what I want to read, but I've got maybe two hours.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Also, it's really nice to have something, especially right now, where there's no stakes. Like the stakes is the sex. And that feels so nice right now.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yes, it's very important.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I need something where like the most stressful thing is, are they gonna bone?

SPEAKER_03 17:13

And we already know they are, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

It's a little workout. I need that comfort, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

So important. And I think that it's so incredible, like you said, for essay survivors who have a lot of things where they can't maybe engage with content in a certain way, where they're like, oh, that doesn't feel practical, or they're trying to heal certain parts of themselves that have been affected because of their experiences, or just want to learn what consensual relationships look like? What is that, right? Because they maybe they've never seen it reflected for themselves, or maybe they're in a new relationship and want to understand how to be better in that relationship in a way that is beneficial to both them and supportive for them, where they can explain themselves to their partner. And I think that, yeah, it's romance is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

I literally talk about it for hours, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yes, and I love that so much because like it's something we should all be talking about. Like, it's like this gateway to like understanding and experiences and finding language, like language we were strictly not taught that is so important to have access to. And that's why I'm like such a Ruby Dixon fan, and I've tried to explain this. I'm like, I could give a dissertation on Ruby Dixon.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Someone should. If someone's written a dissertation on Ruby Dixon, please.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

I just I'm like, imagine that you've never seen this sort of like female pleasure being granted to someone. Like, how radical is a Ruby Dixon book in that scenario? Incredible.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

I feel like one Ruby Dixon, but then like any romance where, especially written by women, where female pleasure is the priority. Yeah. Right? Like it's so prioritized, and that's where they're like, oh, fictional man would never. And it's because they prioritize women. Whoa, novel idea. Fucking wild.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Fucking women are people. What do you know? God.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So much. Anyway, okay. So today we're talking about your favorite trope, and it is a micro trope, and I am here for it. And it is coming early. So good.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yes, I love this trope so much. Like it just brings me so much joy, and I love the different ways the ways it's executed. Like, it is the perfect micro trope that I think that can fit into so many different spaces in books because like it brings so much lightheartedness to a moment that can be so serious or so like intense. And then having that moment, like it can bring humor, it can bring embarrassment, like it can bring so many different emotions, and that's lovely. Like, what a lovely thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yes. Yeah. I when before we started recording, I was looking in my tropes, and I have so many tropes tagged in my story graph. And I was like, I can't find a coming early, but I do have a came in his pants. So we're gonna, those are the ones I'm gonna have to recommend. But let's go through some of those examples of what coming early might look like for some of our romance characters.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

So I have a couple of different ones written down because I think about this trope a lot. I like think I think about a lot of book tropes a lot. Let's be so real. And like all of my things that I look for, I prioritize fat bodies or larger bodies. So that's where I'm coming from more than anywhere. And I couldn't help but think about is there any chance you've read Kate C. Wells? Maybe. She's great at grobling. Like she writes these like men that you're like, there's no way I could be attracted to this man. He's got truck nuts. And then you're like sitting there and you're like, I think I'm attracted to a man that has truck nuts. What's wrong with me?

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Did she have a werewolf shifter series? Yeah. And the one of the female main characters was disabled. I believe she had like a limp or something like that. The groveling in okay, so yes, I have the groveling in that one. I was like, there's no way that she's gonna be able to turn this around for me. She did.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

She did. Kate C. Wells is, in my opinion, like the queen of a grovel, like taking these men that you're like, they're not redeemable, there's no way. And like you're just like, fuck yes.

unknown 21:39

Fuck.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Like the one you're talking about is The Tyrant Alpha's Rejected Mate, which is a phenomenal book and falls into one of my categories, which is plus size in my mind. I'm sorry. I picture that the way she's described as having a soft stomach, like shapely legs. I'm like, she's plus size. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

I'm not sorry.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

It's so good. And the book I'm specifically thinking of is Against a Wall by Kate C. Wells. And Cash, the main male character in this book, has truck nuts and is a hunter and is like so white trash hillabilly described. And you're like, This man? Because not only is he all of those things, but he's also her like high school bully. You're like, surely not. But then like he's obsessed with her. Like he is so obsessed with the main character, and like truly to a point where you're just like, has he been stalking her for 20 years?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Maybe. Question mark.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

But there's an excellent moment with their first like sex scene. Like it's not the first intimate scene, but it's the first time they're having sex. And he like comes almost instantly. And sh the female main character is like, are we done? Like, what happened here? But he like keeps going and he doesn't stop. It's just like one of those moments where you're just like, he came early, but I think it worked.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Everything's fine.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Everything's better than fine. Like, I was real scared for a second, but it worked out.

unknown 23:12

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah, I always laugh when the authors allude to like maybe, where they like insertion, and then they're like, I gotta stop.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

And like they just stop, and it's like, uh it's so well done because like he they've talked about his like obsession with her body, you've seen his point of view, like you understand that this is like his ultimate moment. And so like it makes sense for him to finish early because like he's got all this built up from years of desire for this woman. And like he truly is like a two-pump chump. But he keeps going. Because I was also thinking about like this microtrope works in so many different ways, and like I'm a huge fan of it. But I did run in there's a few cases where I don't think it works. And one of the first times I ever noticed it not working was my first ever Beverly Jenkins read.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

And I love Beverly Jenkins now. I've read like several of her books, they're really beautiful historicals and the description of the time period, the understanding of the politics of the time, like so good. But I didn't know what I was getting into. It was my first time reading her. And this hero, they describe like going in, going once, twice, and then he like leaves. He's like, I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

And I'm just like sitting there and I'm like, Excuse me. What? Sir, you better get your butt back in there.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Like she's like an experienced heroine, like she's from like a gambling dent. And so this isn't her first sexual experience. And she's just like, excuse me. And that, oh, I wrote down the name of that because if you know what to expect, I think it works better because like it does recover from there, but like truly, you're sitting there and you're like, he's dying.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

I didn't even get her to finish.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

And of course, I was like working at my office job at the time, and I like positive.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Someone needs to hear about this.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

I'm like, who do I write to? But again, like it ended up like working out, and they there's a conversation about like how to actually have women have pleasure in those experiences. Because if you're a dude and you're not taught that women can experience pleasure in those experiences, you're not going to try for that. And I think, especially because it was an earlier published book of hers, it was A Chance at Love. And it's a really good Western historical romance. And I think reading that and realizing that, oh, women can experience pleasure and learning how to do that ends up really powerful because it goes to show that not only are we not taught about our bodies, but like the entire population isn't taught about our body.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah, I think that's such an important thing when it comes to more like historical stuff. And even some of the sci-fi stuff, like a lot of the female main characters have to teach the male main character, here's what feels good to me, and here's what I like. And I think that when you have a hero or the other main character who's wants to learn and is invested in the pleasure, then it can make such a huge difference. I'm always fascinated by like the I read a lot of like alien romances, and I'm always interested by like the differences in the maybe equipment that they have, the special equipment. I'm like, woman came up with this. But like female pleasure was seen as hysteria or as like wild, that's not normal behavior, or a woman having a sexual appetite. Oh, she's just loose. No, that's not it.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

No, it's not. And having it written down like in a book where you can point to and say, Oh, this isn't acceptable in my sexual experience. Like, I should be looking for better, and whether that leads to a conversation or it leads to showing up for yourself, because customering yourself during sex isn't like a bad or a harmful thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yeah, I can even think about one, I think that it's really important, especially as women who maybe if we've been in long-term relationships, like I'm celebrating 10 years of marriage this next month, which is like crazy banana pants to me. But like even thinking about things I enjoyed pre-kids, or things that I maybe need now post-kids, or I mentioned in the episode I did with Sabina Nordkiss, because she writes disabled characters that I have interstitial cystitis, which means there's like divots or like potholes pretty much in my bladder lining, which means that sex and intercourse can be painful. What do I do in those instances? And so do I just power through it? Hell no. But pre-Alicia, a pre-romance Alicia might have just been like, I just want my husband to be happy and like then we can be done and move on. That's not how I feel anymore. And I can communicate that in an effective way and say, this hurts this way, or I'm whatever, I maybe had too much wine, and so now my bladder's inflared. We need to do other stuff. Cool, let's go. Being able to communicate that can make a world of difference in our sexual experiences.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah. And like it's so empowering to see those conversations happening and knowing that they're normal and like they're a part of a relationship. Like my husband and I started dating in I think 2009. So we've been together for so long, and like the way our relationship looks has changed so much throughout that time. And that's normal. Like life happens and you don't stay stagnant in those situations. And like just allowing all of these different experiences to become normal is so cool. I just think it's neat. I agree. So we went over our two pump chumps, which I think again, it works. I don't know why it works, but it does. There's also situations where he finishes from going down on her. I love those situations. I'm like, he finished early, but who cares? I think, especially in those moments, it's entirely focused on her pleasure, and her pleasure is what gives him pleasure. Right. And like we're using like he, him, she, her terms, but like obviously we could just be using like top-bottom. It doesn't really matter because like at the end of the day, it's about pleasure being exchanged and being focused on one partner over the other, and like them getting pleasure from that. Like that just I think goes to show how powerful like intimate relationships can be when your like entire focus is on giving pleasure and you receive pleasure from that.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

I'm also curious because uh my husband's in a male body, and he gets a lot of pleasure from giving me pleasure, or even like just having his face in my butt. Like he's just all about the ass. He's an ass man. And I'm always fascinated by that.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

It's wild. There's a lot of studies like focusing on the like the different things that like turn people on, basically, because like humans are really sex-obsessed. We really like it, and for good reason, but there's a lot of like research that goes to show that most male people are very visually like stimulated. If they're like physically touching something, looking at something, they're going to be way more aroused. Whereas most women presenting people, femmes, are much more experience-driven. That's one of the reasons why erotica works so well for so many women, is because reading it allows you time and space to get turned on.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah, it takes us longer. You're able to mentally, I feel like it's a mental thing. Like, I have to be mentally stimulated to be physically stimulated. And I don't mean like I'm thinking about something sexy, but like I need to be out of my head. No actual thoughts or no stresses, or no, oh my gosh, I have a whole list of things that I need to do and get done today. Like, I'm not turned on when I have a million things in my to-do list. And so having that kind of release of the brain can allow you to have a better experience of like actually being in your body. Yeah. But it takes longer.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

It does take longer, it takes time. And I don't, there's no shame in like things taking time. I also, a little evil part of my brain is like, I wonder how much easier it would be for fums to get off if there wasn't so much societal pressure on not being sexual. Yeah. Like, I think about that a lot because there's so much pressure and opinions about who's allowed to be sexy, who's allowed to have sexual desire, who's allowed to express sexual desire. One of the things about having always been in a larger body is people not seeing you as a sexual person. And that's one of the reasons that reading about plus-sized people getting off often and with great partners is so wonderful to me, is because it's like, oh, I'm allowed to experience those things in this body right now. Like, I don't have to wait. I have polycystic ovarian syndrome, I'm never gonna lose weight. The fact of the matter is that unless I have some sort of surgery, I'm not going to lose weight. I'm going to look like this for the rest of my life to a degree. And understanding that even right now I can experience pleasure with a partner and other people desire me is so huge, especially being a child of the late 90s, the early aughts, when like body standards were just wild. I look at pictures of me from like middle school where like I was considered the fat friend, and I'm like, it's so unhealthy to have that much judgment and that much pressure on a body. And having a fat body doesn't determine your sexual worth or your worth at all. And that's one of the reasons that I want more people to read fat rap. At the end of the day, like, I don't care what your body looks like. You can be like a size zero, but I still think you should read about larger bodies because I think it's important that you understand that those bodies are desirable. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with them being desirable.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

100%.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Okay, what recommendation do you have for I think every chance you get by Sloane Spencer, he comes from going down on her. And I've become obsessed with this book because I am self-identified as a himbo. Love it. I'm like, I wish I were a bimbo, but I am simply not. I do not care enough about my appearance to be bimbo quality. And I respect all the bimbos out there. They have my love. I'm truly like one of those people when I see someone walking down the street, I'm like, they're so pretty.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

I'm usually the one to be like, oh my god, I love your outfit.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

It is so gorgeous. But like, I have street smarts. I don't have book smarts. That's just who I am at the end of the day.

unknown 34:15

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

I'm like, listen, you can talk to me about like colors and art history. I'll have that information unlocked and ask me to do math in my head, I might cry. So, like, seeing Jonah being obsessed with this like single mother of two in the way where he's just like, I want her body in a way that is like probably unhealthy. And I'm just like, yes. And the other one that I'm pretty sure he comes from going down on her is Choosing a Forever by Daisy Wren. I love her books. I think they're really great at expressing breaking a cultural and puritanical belief system from what your body is. And I love those books. I especially love choosing a forever because I love both the hero and the heroine, and I love their relationship. Again, I married my high school sweetheart. Seeing like a second chance romance where it's starting from middle school and ends up with them in their 30s is just like crack cocaine to my little heart.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

I'm just like, give it to me, I'll gobble it up. And like the way he's described as like being so uncomfortable, being so aroused for so long. He's like, I don't know what to do with myself. He keeps having wet dreams, and I'm like, buddy. And I think, yeah, the other ones I have, and I'm trying to remember if After Hours on Milagro Street is he comes like a two-pump chump, which I think he does in the first scene. That book starts off so strong, and I love that book. I actually have book club tonight talking about that book.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, I've heard good things about that one. I had it and I cannot find the physical book anywhere. I don't know where in the world it went.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

I listened to the audiobook and I enjoyed it immensely. I loved all the like historical research into that book. I love that it was like a slutty professor. He's not slutty, and that's the wonderful thing. He's so buttoned up and he's like, I don't know what to do with sexual desire. And I just love like when the hero is like, I don't know what to do with my boner feelings, and the heroine's like, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

It puts such a spin on what we expect in a romance, is like the guy pursuing her or her being a virgin, right? There's a lot of that still very patriarchal behavior that happens in romances, especially a lot of the popular ones. And so to see it spun, I think is always so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

It's so much fun. And I think it can be done in so many different ways. Like one of my favorite lines from Lights Out, which isn't a plus size book, but is a book that lives in my head rent-free, is like Josh sitting in the car going, Am I not masculine if I come in my pants? That's something that manly men don't do. And he's so concerned about it. And I think that just goes to show like the different perception that men have from what's attractive versus what is actually attractive. Because the idea of someone being so attracted to you and having so much desire for your body that they'll come without any sort of stimulation is like an incredibly attractive thing. Because like women don't experience desire in that same way, at least not often or not frequently, and not in a way that feels easy to grasp onto. But the idea that someone can be that obsessed with you or have that much desire for you, I think is inherently attractive.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, I saw somebody talking about this with I think it was vampire romance. And they were talking about the reason why people, women specifically, like vampire romance, the idea that you are the soul-sustaining life force that someone needs to survive, and like how attractive that is, that someone needs you that much or wants you that much that you are the only thing that they want to sustain them for their life, like being alive, right? That's hot.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

And like those sorts of things. Women are told they're replaceable, they're not attractive, they're not like all of these things. They need to meet all of these expectations. And to know that's not true and have it reinforced, it's so good. Yes. Amy and I have a like list of it's all the like plus size posters. We have a list of like top-tier like book boyfriends, who's the simpia simp, and PS You're Intolerable is on there. Every chance you get, Joan is on there. The catch by Leonore Solise is on there, and I love that hero. I just want to drag him around by his chain.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Yeah, Leonor Solis is incredible. We had her on the podcast talking about her book. So everybody go check that out. We'll have the link in the show notes too.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I've listened to that book twice, and I'm like, I could probably go with further recipe. I mean, just like she's so good, and the way her books capture not only the female experience, but the body diversity of those books and the certain circumstances in those books feel so real in such a wonderful way. There's so much discussion of mental health throughout them and like where people's mental states are and how that affects everything.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yes, which in the episode, Leonor is a licensed therapist, which is why I think she has such an incredible way of approaching that and like having those harder conversations or being able to, especially being Latina, like the machismo that is in the Hispanic culture, and just like how you're able to navigate them and how we navigate it as women, and um, how sometimes we do need the men roped in to stand beside us or to stand for us in these situations. I think it's she, yeah, she does it so beautifully.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

She's wonderful. I listened to that episode and it's so well done. I'm truly obsessed with her. I also try to read more Latine romances, not only because Latine is an incredible audience and like incredible books are being written. But my husband, who I've been with since 2009, is Puerto Rican. And I'm like, at this point, I'm like, I understand a lot of their culture was like so much machismo going into it that affected who they were growing up. And now they're just so comfortable with who they are. They came out as non-binary when we were planning our wedding in 2020, and like I'm just so proud of them and I love them a lot.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah, and with having Hispanic heritage, there is so much binary of the women do this, the men do this, the women are treated this way, the men are treated that way. So kudos to them for coming out and owning that about themselves. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

I just love them a lot, and I think they're really wonderful. They have no desire to be on my page. I'm like, a couple of times I've been like, Can I post a picture of you? And they're like, no. They're fine if I like use text-based stuff to be like, Can I tell them that you said this? And they're like, Yeah, sure. The other one that I read recently that like really stood out to me because it's described as he comes in his pants and he's pretty sure she doesn't notice, but he's like, I need to get out of these jeans. They're so uncomfortable. Which is like an incredible moment.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

That's Brighton Walsh. And I just love that moment because again, it's a second chance, and I love a second chance. And he's like, It's so hot that she got off on me, that we like came, and then he's like, But these jeans are sticky. And I'm like, Oh, what a way to break up an intense scene, like a very emotional, very intense moment between two characters who are like dealing with the fact that they still have feelings for each other, and then to just be like cutscene, these hands are wet. Help. God, what a perfect comedy break.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Right?

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Love because yeah, that sounds uncomfortable. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Where's the washing machine? There you go.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Go take care of your best. But those are the big recommendations I have written down here. And again, I cannot recommend after hours on Milagro Street and choosing a forever enough. Like they're both very straight-laced dudes who like don't know what to do with their sexual desire, and they are truly befuddled. I love me a hero who is just like, I have no idea what I'm feeling or what to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah, that's fun. Because I think it really does spin, like I said, that patriarchal tendencies that we see in romance, or at least a lot of the popular ones, on its head of the male main character maybe being less experienced, or maybe being, like you said, a little more straight-laced in how they approach their intimacy or wanting it to be a certain way, because they've always thought that's how it's supposed to be. And then the female main character just comes barreling. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

And if you haven't read, I'm sorry, I'm just thinking about this book because it's on my mind. And I have book club later today. If you haven't read after I was on the Lagra Street, I think you should, because like I love that heroine so much. She's like unlikable. She's very proud to be like the best bitch in bartending, and she's proud of her body. And like seeing someone who's unapologetically rude to people feels something in me.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

I told my friends to solve him. I'm like, I want. Resting bitch face. I don't have it. I have resting kind face. And that means strangers walk up to me all day and they ask me questions that I don't have answers to, and I get very sad. To have someone that like is so confident with who they are and so confident in their abilities and what they look like and who they are down to their bones, like completely wrap this man around her pinky finger within 10 minutes of meeting him. That's incredible storytelling because I believe every single word that she's written down that expresses that this man has instant desire for her, and she's like, I could use a fuck. It's just incredible. And like the idea that like women can't experience sexual desire the same way men can is infuriating and patriarchal. And it's just putting people into boxes that they don't deserve to be in, and like also putting so much pressure on people to behave a certain way, I think, is really disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Yeah. I think even some of the content that I'll like see on Instagram or other places is very like, we expect women to be in the streets, this maiden, but also hot, but not too hot to draw other men's attention, or you want her to be the perfect mother all day long and like catering to the house and catering to the kids, and then eight o'clock, kids are in bed, switch on the vixen. Like, are we objects or are we humans with feelings and issues with our bodies too?

SPEAKER_01 45:29

There's so much body dysmorphia and body issues that, especially in the age of Ozempic, I'm just like, I'm tired. I don't want to hear about this perfect female body anymore. I understand that a lot of people get comfort and satisfaction from it, but there is no ideal body. The idea that we expect people to all look a certain way is objectively horrible. And I don't want to live in that world. Like I want to live in a world where like all bodies are appreciated and like we understand that everybody looks different because they've had different life experiences. I have beefy calves because I walk a lot. Like I am strong because I carry books a lot. Like those things don't make me less valuable because they're covered in a layer of fat from something that like to a degree I can't control, but also I don't want to change. Like I spend so much time working to accept this body and find beauty in this body. That like the idea that I should change it for someone else makes me really mad.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Yeah. I had a conversation with my eight-year-old. He's autistic the other day. So he doesn't necessarily have a filter just yet. Also, being a kid adds to that. Um but he came in, I had my sports bra and my pajama pants on, and my belly was hanging over my pants a little bit. Quite a bit, I should say. And it wasn't a little bit, quite a bit. I've had an apron belly, you're like, and he comes in, he's like, Mom, you don't have any abs. And I was like, That's actually not true. Do you want to feel them? And so I like I tightened and he was pressing, and he was like, Oh, you do have abs. I was like, Yeah, everyone has abdominal muscles. Some people's are covered with fat layers, and some are not covered with fat layers. And he goes, You have a fat belly. And I was like, I do, but you know what? This belly has done some incredible things. I birthed you, I birthed your brother, and I carried you all the whole nine months. That is incredible. And he goes, very kid-like, you should lose the belly. And I was like, and this is where we pause. We don't make comments about other people's bodies. It's not okay, and it's actually really mean to do that. So I like my body the way it is, and this is my body, and I love it. And you can have an opinion about it, but we don't say those things out loud. So teaching him, like, it's a very kid-like to be like, you should lose that so we can see your abs. That's his probably his thought.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

But like, what a wonderful like moment for you, too, because that's so true. That's amazing. Because like at the end of the day, our bodies are so much determined by things that we can't control. Right. And I think there is so much misinformation regarding that. Like, what we eat, what we do, all of that instantly affects what our body looks like. When it's all genetics, like I was made to survive like a fucking famine. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

My body could survive a famine better than yours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

I have also more testosterone in my body than is necessary, but that's okay. Yeah. That doesn't change who I am fundamentally, and that doesn't decrease my value. And unfortunately, I think those things are really hard to grasp and to see them illustrated in a place where people are seen as desirable. Oh my gosh. Like so much healing for me who was convinced as like a younger person. Not because of anything anyone said to me or anything like that was done to me, but so much societal pressure to look a certain way. And to remember that like you don't have to look a certain way to be worthwhile at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Yeah, I could not agree more. It's so important, and I think that it's such a good reminder to us that it doesn't matter what our body looks like. We could literally be missing limbs. And like some of the romance books, there are people who are missing limbs, and they still deserve love because they are whole people in who they are and their spirit, and I think that's it's such an important part of romance is seeing those bodies reflected in the stories and getting that love, and it can be so incredibly healing for us.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Yeah, I totally agree. And that's one of the reasons that like I do my very best to include as many diverse books in my wrap books as I can. My own personal goal is to include at least one queer book, and if there's not a queer book, include something where I'm like, I could recommend this or I could recommend that instead. But especially because so many books are like popular to an extent, I want to make sure that I'm including as much diversity in my own recommendations as I can and have my reading reflect that. But I do my very best to make sure I've read all of the books I'm recommending, or if I haven't read them, people I trust have read them and know that those tripes are included. Because like I don't want to recommend something and it not be there, which is why on my like plus size in my mind posts, I'm so explicitly clear. I'm like, these are not plus size characters.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

In my head they are.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Yes. I'm allowed to picture this character however I want. There's so much pressure on so many people to do certain things and be a certain way. And like taking the pressure off of like yourself to look a certain way is like so huge.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yeah. And so healing. Like you said, societally, we get told we have to look a certain way or be a certain way or do things. Man, fuck all that.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

I'm done. I don't want to anymore. Like, I'm 30 fucking years old. I'm tired.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

I am tired. I feel that in my soul. I have some recommendations as well. And I will include the ones that have plus size bodies too. So I'll make sure I have those. All right, so books where he finishes in his pants. The first one is Kaki by Tahisha. I want to say is how you say her name, B Williams. This one is a soccer football. So not football football, but like European soccer. So his parents are from Africa. She is Jamaican and something else, and also practicing Rastafarian, which I don't think I had ever read. Um, very curvy body has a roster of men, which I love, has a lot of I love myself and I'm a bad bitch, but when other people say things about her body, it's very triggering for her. And so there's a lot of discussions around weight, around body, around this is the body I'm in. Like she's also vegan by because of being Rastafarian. She also does not go down on him because she's Rastafarian. That's like a whole discussion in there, which I had never heard before. And I was like, this is so fascinating. I love it. But so she is best friends with his little sister. She was the girl that was sniffing his underwear when they were younger. Like she was like wanted him so bad. And he comes back from being away and is like, damn, she grew up. And she's like, Who are you? I don't remember you. She does, but she's like, I don't know. I don't like let me bring you down a peg, boo, because I don't remember. Are you sure we know each other? And he's like, Yeah, like, are you messing with me? Like, we know each other. So then, of course, he wants her even more. She has a whole roster of guys, ends up getting really drunk and texting all of them the same thing. So now she's rosterless, and he's like very specific about the kinds of people that he has sex with, and he doesn't just have sex with anyone. So, like, very opposite, so good, and such a fun time. Highly recommend. I just read that earlier in the month.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

I also love football, like European football, especially over like American football. I love the culture and just all the details in there. I'm gonna add that to my TBR like right now.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

It's so good. Um, next, I'm pretty sure this is plus size. I don't remember. The main character on the cover looks like she's maybe mid-sized, so we'll go with mid-size. Breaking away by Suk Carr. And I probably said her name wrong, and I apologize. This one is Canadian hockey. Uh, she is a photographer and an Indian immigrant to Canada. And he is, I want to say she's his childhood crush. Like they went to like school together or whatever. And if I'm remembering, I might be misremembering this one. My tags say Dirty Talker, Grumpy Sunshine, Fake Dating, It's Always Been You vibes. And I'm seeing masturbation in there, so there you go. Price kicked too.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

And I'm pretty sure she is. Plus, I she that book is on my TBR. I'm actually trying to convince Catherine to bring it into the store because it's like one of those books that's on Ingram, and I'm like, I just think it'd be really neat.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Highly recommend. That one is fantastic. I have on here Yours for Now by Leonore Silise. That is the first one in the Cozy Latine billionaire series. And there is a scene in that one. Next is The Princess Trap by Talia Hibbert.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Oh my god, it does happen in that book.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Yep. There's a scene in that one. We've got Personal by Alexandria House. This is her basketball series. And there's a dry hump to orgasm and a female Dom. Say less.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

I love her mom. Is it a mafia series? It's like the dark romance.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

Yes. All the assassin ones.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

I'm obsessed with those, but I haven't read her basketball ones. So it's like on the top of my TBR. They're on my Libby like tags. Oh. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

That one is a dry hump to orgasm. Good boy. There is a surprise in there. While on birth control.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

So I'm just gonna note that. One of those ones.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

But yeah, there's some BDSM, female dom, and the audiobook because she always, I don't know how Alexandra House does it, but she always gets Jacoby Diem and Wesley Chavon to do the audiobooks. And those two together are just yeah, I need them.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

And I'm just like, yeah. This is gonna ruin my Libby TBR, but I think I'm okay with it. It's so good.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

That is it for the plus size ones, but that gives you guys such a variety and excellent choices from there.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Yeah, and I cannot wait to read the ones that I haven't read, and I might need to reread The Princess Trap, especially what now that it's got the new cover.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Oh yeah. I haven't read that book since probably 2022 when I first went into Talia Hibbert because I love the Brown Sisters trilogy so much. If I want to read with the Talia Hibbert, I usually go for them, but that might change.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah, that one is really good too on audio as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah, very, very good. I also love the fiance fiasco. She's just so befuddled by him. He's I'm obsessed with you. She's like, What?

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Yes. So good. Could not recommend enough. This has been so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 57:33

I could literally talk to you for another hour. We're gonna need to do this again with another show.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

I could talk about so many things for so long. I talking about romance is my favorite thing. Giving book recommendations is my true favorite thing, and I am lucky enough to get paid to do it.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

Love it. So if people want to connect with you, get to know you, light stalking, etc., where can they find you on social media?

SPEAKER_01 57:59

All my social media is under Fat GirlSmut. It won't be changing anytime soon. I am currently working on launching a website so I can sell stickers and prints. I have some exciting collaborations coming up, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

Awesome. That sounds incredible. And we'll make sure we have links for all that in the show notes for anyone who's going and doing other things as they're listening to us. It'll also be in the YouTube description. Meg, thank you so much for being on. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

Thank you so much. I had so much fun.