How To Stay Human In A Polarised World

Polarisation  not only splits countries, it splits families, teams, friendships, and even our inner life. When the world feels tense, the temptation is to grip harder, pick a side, and defend it as if certainty will keep us safe. In this episode we wanted to ask a different question: how do we increase our capacity to hold two opposing possibilities, without collapsing into judgement or losing ourselves?

We start with a familiar UK flashpoint, Brexit, to identify the ongoing tribalism and the quiet damage it can cause. From there we explore polarity as a spectrum rather than a binary, and the idea of a “third force” that can reconcile what looks irreconcilable. We talk about moral hijacking and the fear of losing belonging, why we feel pressure to have a strong opinion on everything, and how that pressure can shut down creativity and compassion.

Along the way, we bring in adult development (including Robert Kegan), deep listening, and the value of uncertainty as an adaptive response. We use vivid nature metaphors, from grounded trees that still bend in storms to diverse ecosystems that flourish through difference, to show why creative tension is not a failure but a source of new possibilities. The invitation is practical: respect another person’s right to exist and evolve, even when you disagree, and notice what becomes possible when you stop making difference mean danger.

If this resonates, listen, share it with someone you often disagree with, and subscribe or leave a review so more people can find these conversations on enoughness, belonging, and holding opposing views.

Thank you for listening and taking the time to explore our podcast.

Earthaconter: Connection, Exploration and Expansion
www.earthaconter.org

Transcript

Why Holding Opposites Matters

Lyn Man 0:00

Welcome to I Am Enough, the space where we explore journeys back to our forgotten birthright of enoughness, to draw a natural wisdom along with awareness, acceptance, and compassion. To support each of us on that journey and embrace our wholeness. Despite what society tells us, each one of us is enough exactly as we are. My name is Lyn Man, and I'd like to welcome you to this space where we explore enoughness, people's journeys along the path to feeling I am enough, and look at what can support each of us on that journey. Hello and welcome to another episode of I Am Enough, the space where we embrace our wholes. So today, the question I am posing to my guests, who are Alex Papworth, Scott Plate, and Mark Henderson, our regular contributors, are how do we develop or increase the capacity to hold two opposing possibilities? Now, the reason this has come up is because right now we're seeing a lot of polarity in the world. And sometimes you can see both sides of it, but few people actually seem to be able to hold that capacity to actually maybe two truths, two possibilities. So I'm just going to open it up to whoever would like to go first. And I know Alex already has an example to share with us, so yes, please do.

Alex Papworth 1:40

Sure. Happy to do so. Um yeah, so for for uh for the people in the UK listening, we'll be very familiar with this one. And I feel sufficient time has passed that I might mention it without triggering too many people. But then again, maybe not. And maybe that's the point. We're all very familiar with Brexit uh in the UK. And it's uh, you know, the the event, if you like, is several years old, but the polarity or the or the tribalism that exists around is very I think it's still very live today. But that personal response to that was I remember being frustrated at the time because of what I saw as the tribalism and the people I hung around, if you like, my group were very much opposed to to leading the EU. And uh my frustration was was about the the division I saw and the judgment at the finger pointing, and that's the um the thing I wanted to respond to. And I suppose I'm I was sitting here thinking about the capacity side of this, really, and I suppose to start start off really was I didn't like what I was seeing. I wanted to do something to address that and and uh and avoid the tribalism. So so maybe the capacity there comes from some extent is to see see the damage being done. So my desire was to try and do something about that, and and and it's a very simple story because I remember at the time thinking, what what do I do? And and my reaction was to spend time and it's all very simplistic and cliche, but with the you know, in quite other camp, and I thought a way of doing that was to grow food with people. So that really led me on a very positive direction of our community food growing and the irony being the other camp was actually quite elusive, but I wasn't entirely sure what it was when I found it. But but that was my attempt was to I suppose in some ways, you know, it's almost like breaking bread. Maybe that sort of idea was was was too well that was to do that. But going back to the question, I suppose it starts with motivation, it starts with seeing seeing the damage that's causing. So that's my um yeah, my kickoff contribution, I think.

Polarity As A Continuum

Scott Plate 3:54

Yeah, I think there's examples of that around the world, honestly. I'm glad that you you know brought up this one. The thing that strikes me is there's a book that just reminds me of the Kabalian Hermetic philosophy, and one of the principles it explores is polarity, which assumes that things are identical, just different in degree. So, you know, we tend to organize things in terms of binaries and remain blind to the third or reconciling force that comes in. So love, hate, right, wrong, yes, no. It's difficult for us to hold those forces because we tend to take the active principle that what is other than our point of view is a problem that needs to be solved or needs to be deconstructed or something along those lines. So I appreciate the Brexit example because that finger pointing, you know, that can happen, it's happening in our country in the U.S. as well, is a direct result of not being able to see that, for example, light and dark are both qualities of illumination, just differing along along a scale. And love and hate are expressions of an emotional spectrum. So the inability to hold a polarity comes from, from my experience, and a teacher would say to me often, you're third force blind, you're not seeing that the reconciliation, however it may be elusive in the moment, is actually what unites both of these things. But the tendency is to see things from our point of view, and so the other is invariably either deficient or wrong or whatever that winds up being, or makes us need to change our approach and our feeling about it. So it took me a long time to understand that I didn't need to agree with someone in order to be able to empathize with them. So being able, even if I don't share this viewpoint, being able to enter into the universe of the other person's perspective is a key part of holding the tension. So I appreciate the conversation very much and the opportunity because I'm a Gemini, so my mother gave me one cookie, it needed to be two all the time. So there had to be a second one of everything. So my tendency is to try to duplicate, you know, and the binary takes on a different kind of quality, but there always needed to be two of everything. So the challenge was set up for me very early.

Moral Hijacking And Group Belonging

Mark Henderson 6:47

Yeah, you've you've brought it back to the sort of personal level, and that's where where this really matters for me. I think the potential to become to to build that capacity for holding different perspectives gives us so much more peace. Because we a society tends to want us to to go to one side or the other, and very firmly to the other end of the scale, more and more. And um, you know, that that causes feelings perhaps of of aggression against the other side. It it also triggers fear, which closes down our creative ability. And for me, this is all about sort of self-awareness and being able to understand where one is on that scale that you talked about, Scott. And to to be able to even even if you don't agree, to be able to respect and hold the other perspective. And I think I'm thinking of Robert Keegan's work that he's done on this sort of adult self-development stages, and the four and five are fourth one is self-authoring, and the fifth one is self-transforming. And very few adults actually make it to four or five. And self-transforming is all about what we're talking about, is that ability to to hold different different polarities at the same time. So so the the identity once uh is examining itself, that that ability to to sort of self-examine, to be self-aware around it. And we see precious little leadership around the world that has this capacity, which explains a lot. And I think also of native cultures where the tradition is that you know big decisions were talked about in in circle and could go on for a long time until a consensus was reached. And so so there there has for me, there has this sense of being able to to hold and respect others' opinions and even agree to to going in a different direction than perhaps what you came into the circle thinking that the that uh the discussion would go. So uh yeah, it's the our times call for for this capacity more than ever, it feels like. One

Alex Papworth 9:46

one aspect of that that can came into mind when you were talking, Mark, was the um I'm just curious about the cor correctness, if you like, of this of the validity, if it is the feels sometimes there's a sort of like moral hijacking. So um and and that relates to the sort of tribal membership, so there's you know, so there's it feels like there's a an individualistic level where do you have this capacity, this you know, individually. But there's also the sort of the idea of being excluded from from a group. So in order to be part of this group, you know, going back to my example, it was uh my North London middle class, whatever group. This is what we believe, and therefore you you need to be aligned with this to sort of maintain membership if you like. I'm wondering at what your thoughts are on this sort of idea of moral hijacking that, which is tied in with this sort of tribalism that you can yeah, you need to be you need to you need to buy into what we we believe in order to maintain membership. Yeah, clear is that. Yeah. I I think uh for me that what comes up is that it's that that society wanting to keep us in boxes or or encouraging us. It's our own identity that that wants that needs to belong in certain places or certain uh circumstances. But and and you know, our society wants us to keep that strong identity and to stand by that identity and defend that identity, and that becomes very rigid, and I think that that's part of the the problem. So so yeah, it's it's part of the the way that we find the society is built that we live in. This this is this is a rare capacity, I think.

Scott Plate 11:38

I think isn't it's such an interesting example, Alex. Isn't it kind of inherent in binary thinking to feel inevitably insecure if someone steps out of the group that you belong to, in a sense. So the feeling, as Mark was speaking of, the the need to bring someone back into the fold or reject them forcefully because their stance somehow minimizes or affects your state of belonging, is fairly common. Because what happens if I view the other as a problem, as opposed to simply differently positioned on a continuum of meaning, then invariably I will simply compare over and over and over that which is different, as opposed to being able to kind of either zoom up and look at this continuum and see what's there. But I think I agree with you. I've seen it here, and it's it happens frequently when the other is so clearly identified as problematic. You take a step back as, you know, why would someone need to hijack the moral high ground in that kind of a situation if they were clear about the fact that their territory is not one side or the other, but actually everything along that continuum. So where anyone stands in a continuum with the understanding that, yes, this is what I believe and this is what you believe, both are valid, they're differing in degree, but it means that my territory expands. If I'm insecure about how much territory I occupy, then I need to hijack moral high ground to give myself more room because I don't necessarily know that I have it, you know, and I think it's that's that's my my sense of it. But I hear you, and it I see it happening over and over, you know, where I live. What strikes me is, you know, the capacity, as Mark said, I appreciate that. It is rare, you know, it's absent from leadership, it's also you know, absent without example in all of us watching and paying attention. It's interesting to me how AC and DC in a house, you AC needs a grounding wire because it changes direction. It's like it it appeared periodically, it alternates from one direction to another. So without a grounding wire, that's inherently unstable electricity, which isn't what we're experiencing in this kind of binary thinking. But but it's the it's the nature of the current to change direction. You know, it is its very nature to not simply occupy a space. Direct current, you know, needs an adapter to work in that situation. But and I don't know very much about electrical engineering, but that much I know without a grounding wire, your house is going to blow up at some point. And I feel strongly that the grounding wire is my ability to see where you are and hold it as valid, even if I don't agree with it. And sometimes what you're asked to hold as valid is absolutely nonsensical and absurd to your point from your perspective. But if I believe that there is a continuum and I really believe that, then everything in it has life. You know, so I don't see nature kicking things out because they don't necessarily belong. They'll find some other way to live. You know, I don't see nature adopting a moral high ground. You know, I wonder if there's an equivalent to that, you know, in our in our natural kind of example.

Mark Henderson 15:25

When when Lyn was uh introducing the the question, I I I thought of when I worked with renewable energy and and heat pumps and and learning about that technology from the the experts uh was interesting because they when we we want to call things hot and cold, and I said, well, what is hot and cold? You know, it's just different temperatures. And you know, so it's uh a a minus four, you know, that's enough energy coming into uh uh from from the ground, for example, from the ground source heat pump to produce to to spark a refrigeration cycle that then through compression creates heat or warmer a warmer temperature to to to heat water if it's usable in a house. But minus four, you know, we would terms well that's actually cold, isn't it? Well, it's it's actually a temperature. So yeah. It's uh maybe another example in in nature. Oh sure. Yeah.

Lyn Man 16:28

It's it's interesting even just listening to everything that's been shared, because a lot of it does come back to how we're judging things or how we're feeling judged, and going back to that moral high ground, and I think there's you know, the the emotions of guilt and shame and the way people will share things, it's done in a way to make you feel those emotions if you're not aligned. And going back to what you were saying about respect, it is that actually you know how do we sit and respect that how do we respect anybody else's position because they have a right to to say what they believe. And and actually when we when we start to listen deeply and maybe go underneath, you know, what what is actually at the core and and often you know what people want is very similar. If you go right down to the very base of it, it is the same thing, it's just coming, they're coming at it from a different perspective as to how they're going to get there. So it it may be, you know, parents most parents will say that what matters to them is is having a happy child. But you will see many different ways to achieve that and going back to the belonging, you know, people you know, d I had this conversation with somebody the other day, and it's like sometimes people don't know where to go to find other people that maybe do think they're in a similar way. So they feel constrained, and I think that comes with the with judgment or it going back to I think it was Mark said about bringing us into that fear. When we're in that fear, we can't actually step out and really say what we're wanting to because of that that fear of being judged, that fear of being kicked out. In actual fact, you know, what what can we do if we we look in in nature, you know, there's I've I've been watching the robins in the garden and they're they're fighting over territory with you know it's that kind of time of year. And you know, they will one of them will chase others out of the way. But then other times there'll be three or four around e so it's there's it depends what I'm actually seeing at that point in time. So I could say that there's a lot of harmony. And and I shared a a picture the other day of my dog with a magpie actually sitting right next to her, you know, she was totally like whatever. So we can see nature and we can see the world as as harmonious and as joy, depending on how we're looking at it and the translation we're putting on it at the time. So yeah, I think there's there's so much in this that we can tease out where else are you or where are your thoughts going right now on this topic?

Mark Henderson 20:15

I think uh the answer to that question, then, about how how do we develop that capacity and and what's uh when when you're speaking, I was thinking what what helps me in a situation is remembering that I don't know that person's journey. I don't know they they're acting in a certain way that I find strange, but I I don't know what's happened the hour before or the day before or the year before or the 30 years before. And you know, we have this tendency that we've already touched on to a need, I think, to oversimplify things. And and that I think is part of the problem that uh we we we're probably not present, and you know, we're we're seeing the forest but not in the individual trees. So so for me that that often helps is to to to remind myself that this it's another person who seems to have a very different view from me, but I have no idea what their life has been like that has led them to that. Or and and I think we know we've talked politics or we've touched on politics as an example of this. Again, it's these are gross oversimplifications of complex questions, which and people have I think a lot of us have been sort of programmed into believing that system works. But does it really? I mean you know, it's uh it's a ping pong every four years or and leading up to it for um Many months, but it's not really constructive, and it takes us out of our own power. And so it's another example of us giving our power away by believing that you know one one manufactured solution is going to be the the answer and is going to give us better lives when there are so many complex questions as part of that. So I think oversimplification is uh part part of the challenge here. But as I say, that that sort of reminding myself that I I don't know what that person's going through is one strategy that I use.

Alex Papworth 22:45

Um what I bring in this is uh something that other we can do is paragraph on Radio 4, WC Radio 4 called the I think it's called the Red Crossing the Red Lyne. And it's an example mark of addressing that issue. So typically it's well it could be anything, but usually people with opposing points of you. And the whole exercise there is to is to understand that person. So there's a whole exploration about this is your position, why can you come to that view? Tell me about your life before. And it takes some time to do that, so we don't have the luxury of that, but it's a really good illustration of understanding the mystery of another person. You know, and they're usually there is you know, people are just positioned that it's not just about convincing the other, it's about understanding the other and relating to them. So it's a great example of how to approach that. But also, it struck me when you were saying it's a mystery idea. It's the idea of and there's something about needing control being a form of sort of intellectual understanding, and falling into that trap of lead, I need to know everything. And it's that's that's a sort of like a a related problem, I need to know. So do we believe the same story? I need to know, you know, does that make that makes me feel safe as Scott was intimating. So having well for me that's occasionally something I come back to and just experience mystery, and and this is this is out in the walks when you know I'll be I'll be noticing where how whether where the lichen grows on a side of a tree and thinking, why is that? and then just enjoying it for what it is without having to understand it. But for me, that's one of the capacities that feels quite useful here is to is to just experience mystery and magic and just um of another person with a rich and you know lay and complex life, and just I mean it feels very given the emotions that tend to be triggered under these circumstances. Experiencing that person's magic or mysterious seems to be quite a leap, as I say.

Scott Plate 24:44

But uh I think it's a good leap though. I mean I'm st I love that you said that though. I'm just curious, is what is it that you think makes us think we know? Because what Mark introduced was, I think it's key. It's it's you know, we have no way of grasping what that person is or what their experience is, but there's something in us that thinks we did. And yes, it's reductive thinking, yes, it's reductive reasoning, yes, it's keeping things controllable and keeping things in a box so it doesn't escape, you know, like the Tasmanian devil in Looney Tunes and frighten everybody and run in circles. It's just I'm not I'm wondering what makes us think we know all this. Yes, and and understanding, I agree, is a complete it's a box canyon, as they say in New Mexico. There's no way out of it, you know. But uh, you know, think if I even my I understand that I have created a binary, you know, as opposed to, you know, some people refer to it as non-dual consciousness or unit of consciousness, where where Mark alluded to, the tribal process, the council process that continues to go back to the well when there is no reconciliation until there is, and the space winds up teaching. But I'm really curious as to what makes us think we know everything that we need to know and therefore judge.

Lyn Man 26:06

Do you think it comes from a need to know? Or the need is actually that if if we say we know or we believe we know and somebody agrees with us, then it's actually validating us. So it comes back to that looking for external validation. So when somebody says something different, then actually it's we're we're seeing it maybe as taking it away from ourselves rather than being like, oh, it's a possibility. Well it's it's like what what does it mean to us for somebody else to have that that differing opinion or to see things in a different perspective? And I'm just conscious there's um I've had two examples recently where people have been going to the with all the suffering in the world, how can I possibly feel joy or how can I be happy because I'm not in their situation? And it's like it's for me, even holding that is is interesting because we don't know what you know, I cannot feel what situation people are in other than my own situation and I can have compassion and empathy for it, but I can't feel it and see what it's like. But if I live in the fear of that, or if I let that pull me into guilt, it takes me away from what I could potentially do that that may actually help somebody to come out of that suffering. And I think it's it's interesting when we we just look at even the the emotions around all of this. How can we be open to the the possibilities without letting it without us feeling like it's taking something away from us if something is not as we perceive it.

Mark Henderson 28:28

Yeah, I I wonder Lyn if that's if it's uh connected to the the feeling that there's almost a pressure to to to take a position on any question. And that somehow we're we're not uh yeah, we're we're somehow insufficient if we if we don't have a strong opinion about something. I I uh I think of my mother-in-law who in her you know she she was brought up that it's your responsibility to know what's happening in the world, but that meant you know, politics and yeah, that there's there seems to be uh an underlying pressure to to have this strong identity and to to stand by it and protect it and defend it and to uh to place it somewhere in in every aspect of life, to be to be clear about you know what you believe about everything. And and and that sort of for me has a sense of closing down rather than opening up and and you know it is yeah rather rather be open, not have a particular view and and curious, and um because nothing is static either, so everything's changes all the time. So uh so without that curiosity, for me, people's stance lose uh credibility.

Alex Papworth 30:00

Yeah, that that reminds me of um an email you shared a couple of weeks back, Lyn, because um when you talk about that, uh certainty is the word that comes to mind. The need to be certain of your views. And this email was talking about the value of uncertainty, and I think the language was essentially being open to uncertainty and talking about it being an adaptive response. So uncertainty is this signal to uh to respond, to adapt to to something in the environment, which is you know, which is where the the value comes in, which you know coming back to nature, that's our signal to to change in some way or to be to be curious, to be kind of curious, to see what we can learn. And the opposite, the cultural norm appears to be um you know, locking down on that certainty and uh and just someone's demonizing uncertainty as as being uh somehow efficient or lacking, which maybe it picks up on your theme again, Mark. But um I I f I find some value in framing it that way, saying it's uh reading those words I found very helpful. See treating as an adaptive response, it's a signal. So uncertainty has value because it's yeah, it's telling you something about the environment, not something to be not not a fear trigger, if you like.

Scott Plate 31:23

I think it's a great question, Lyn. And I think um, you know, my teacher used to say, you know, the formatory mind seeks contradiction and the maturing mind seeks synthesis. So we tend to look in terms of contrast, and I think the key to to it for me is just how we were nurtured to be in relational space with other people. There's a natural tendency, I think, on my part, to look at someone else for information. As a child, I was taught to pay attention. I was taught to obey the rules of the space. So my attention began to sharpen outside myself. I didn't include myself in the field because all of the information was out there. And so, in order to become visible to that other person, I had to become like them. I had to behave as they would have me behave. And those habits began to take root in me, and I formed a kind of belonging that didn't really include my perspective. Inside, my perspective was developing, and very often it was counter to what I was taught to believe. And but because all of my authority had been given away to pay attention to, to obey, I didn't have confidence in my view. So what happens is the what you say, I think in my experience point what goes up must come down. What you shove down comes up in the same way in time. And there is a conflict and a tension within ourselves that is difficult to reconcile because we do need validation, we do need belonging, we do need that sense from the other who has nurtured us and whom we have invested love and time and care. Uh, we do need that. But when we begin to sense ourselves a little bit more distinctly against the horizon of that relationship, it's frightening to step out and say, I don't agree with you. And I think then we kind of zoom out a little wider and put that on a social scale. Belonging doesn't go away. The need to belong doesn't go away. It changes again in degree in that world. But I think the the my sense of what I'm coming to as I'm speaking is my fear that I won't belong is what makes me make you wrong. So my fear that I won't become a part, I won't be a part of this family, however you want to define that word, is what makes me want to push you outside the family. You know, it's it's a strange paradox, but it's another reading of polarity. You know, it's I'm gonna make you other. So in the same, in a weird way, I'm actually affirming the relationship. And like, for example, people argue that, you know, whether they talk about the existence of God, whether God is real. And there are many people who are theists who are who are believers who say that even atheists imply the existence of God by denying the fact that it's there. But that's their view. But I think you could also argue the other side that those people need those atheists to believe what they believe, so they find a way to reinforce the relationship. So I think as long as we can pay attention to the binary relationships, natural tendency to change direction. And as Mark was saying earlier, things don't stay static, they evolve, they change, you know. So if we actually can sense that in ourselves and actually not only allow other people to have the same process, but actually fight for that person's right to have that process, then we're we're better off, you know? But I think for me, it's it's how I was taught to believe I existed in space with relation to other people. And I'm not blaming my parents, they didn't get anything wrong. I just they did what they were taught and I did what I was taught. But it's funny how we just begun believing something is true because everybody else did. And now all of a sudden we wake up and realize that our soul is our own and it may be developing in an entirely different direction. And it's nice to pay attention to that in the space as well. As my friend, as my cousin says, it wouldn't be an interesting world if everybody was wearing the same dress.

Lyn Man 35:46

So Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Plate 35:48

Yeah.

Lyn Man 35:50

And it it it's interesting with that because part of it really does come back to learning to trust ourselves and learning to listen to ourselves and just listening to you. There was a couple of things that came up, but the first was very much around that actually when we're taught to to listen for everything externally, we forget to listen internally. But as you say, eventually it does start to scream at us, and then we wonder what what's going on. And but the other thing was very much, I was drawn very much to Darwin and the survival of the fittest. And of course, you know, that's often interpreted as it's the the survival of the strongest, but in reality, it's the survival of those that adapt and evolve. And I think that's definitely the message coming through because things change and there is a lot of uncertainty, and almost in the uncertainty, what we're finding is is people are even more rigid, but actually in the uncertainty, what we need is to explore, to be open, to be curious, and to really start to adapt and see, well, actually, hold on a minute, what's changed? How how does this work? You know, what's going on now that maybe changes what I thought before, what I perceived, or changes the possibilities. So yeah, there's I think there's a lot we can learn from from each other, and it cut and it comes back as well to to our uniqueness, going back to to where you finished with the you know everybody being different, Scott, and and how it brings something to our world. So how how do we learn to be the word is the compassionate to somebody else is opinion, to somebody else's point of view and to listen deeply to it. So we're not making it wrong, we're not making it right. It it just is what it is.

Giving People Space To Change

Scott Plate 38:06

Right. I don't think I I agree with you, Lyn, and I don't and I this gets back to what Alex was saying earlier where how moral hijacking can become so dangerous ultimately and so alienating because we lose the capacity to change. And we also lose the capacity to allow other people to change. So it's I I think beginning to appreciate the fact that I ultimately, as a human being, needed more space to allow myself to be, or I would not have been able to become whatever it is I'm becoming. I tend to forget what I needed in order to have space in the world. And I don't, as a result of forgetting this, give other people the capacity to change. Like where we are in the U.S. right now, there are people on both sides of this political spectrum. And there are some people who are kind of waking up and having buyer's remorse over situations based on how things are evolving. And I find the people are not people who don't agree with folks having buyer's remorse having absolutely no compassion for people changing, for people coming and just no, you're wrong, and you need to understand how wrong you were, and I'm gonna rub this in your face. And it's like, boy, I wish, I wish so much better for everyone. I I really sincerely wish that we could let people have the capacity to discover that something they didn't even anticipate that wasn't even on their radar is now true. And it gets back also to what Mark was saying. The counsel process allowed for that which the group could not see in one round to emerge as a part of the process. The space, we talked about this in another podcast. The space has far more intelligence than what we bring to it, especially when we're looking at it with, you know, dualistic thinking. You know, what do what are we not seeing? What are we blind to? And being blind to a situation or a solution doesn't mean we're stupid or lacking. It just means we can't see it yet. So that means if I don't, if I have the right to be in the dark as I evolve, that means everybody else has that right as well. And I I don't, I don't, it's unfair that we don't give people grace for me, even if I disagree vehemently with something, that means the possibility for the opposing vehement disagreement to exist. It implies it. So it has to have that space. Now, you know, granted there's wisdom that says my human rights stop when my fist reaches your face. Now, there's a whole bunch of, you know, that's another argument. But my I feel as though one way to hold the tension is to is to acknowledge another person's right to exist, not only by nodding my head and saying grudgingly, yeah, you're allowed to be here, but actually fighting for their right to exist, to or advocating for their right to exist, however I do that within myself. And I know that sounds like a really good idea, but I've learned in my own marriage, it's, you know, I need to want me more than I want my husband in order for intimacy to work. And very we're very different in a lot of different ways. So where love becomes really something transformative is where I love him enough so that I fight for his right to take up more space. And it took me a long time to understand how that works because it's not about me, but it is about choosing me, choosing what I don't know, so that he can be free. You know, so I think I'd like I'd love that for everybody, honestly. But I think we're a ways from that at the moment. Yeah.

Mark Henderson 42:05

Yeah, beautiful, Scott. Thanks for sharing that. I'm thinking of of of diversity here. That's uh for for me, this is part of it, that we're open to we we we understand nature shows us that the more diverse a system is, the more flourishing it it is. Then, you know, if we can embody that in our relationships and organizations, then part of that diversity is about appreciating every other and what they bring and valuing that, even although there's a a huge spectrum potentially of views and perspectives and needs, you know. So in an organizational sense, it's holding both safety and accountability, alignment and autonomy, for example, and clarity and participation, and yeah, being able to in in a in a group, in a team, to to to to hold that and and value the the the diversity of of perspectives. And I think that as you were saying, Scott, that allows for this energy that's in between, that's in the space to to really emerge and uh and become something yeah, to to to realise potential beyond the sum of the the parts.

Alex Papworth 43:38

This is um reminding me of I was I've been looking for the opportunity to bring in creative tension because I'm sure that's relevant here. But uh there's a that seems to be a clear link in my mind what from what you were saying to I was thinking of uh ecosystems, you know, where you have the monoculture, which is you know the opposite to what you're talking about, and the idea of an eco type. Where two different ecosystems mix, and then you have that creative upwelling because there is two, and there's almost a sense of two alien ecosystems coming together, and then that there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of chaos and a lot of unknown, I guess, in that situation. But it's also known for being a very creative space. So uh I think there's there's an example there in nature of uh the potential for yeah, creating the I don't know what it is, the capac coming back to the capacity, the capacity to to allow that diversity to exist. It's even a wrong, I find myself using language I don't like, allowing diversity to exist. It's like celebrating the potential of diversity. And obviously it's telling it a loaded as well, but um yeah, that that to me is that's the simple grounded reality of how nature operates that tells us why diversity is is sort of well, it's actually necessary, it's where creativity comes from. Um so even in that you know, that sort of coming coming back to our original framing about attention holding two opposing points of view. For me is the question is almost what what emerges when you do that? What's what what's possible as a result of it's not just somehow having amazing capacity to to hold opposing points of view, it's like well what what might happen, which I think we've touched on in different ways in this conversation, but what is that that's it's almost like a a sense of excitement about what's gonna happen because because this is happening, we're allowing these two, you know, these two tensions, these two costs which exist. Something that's gonna arise come from that. What's it gonna be? And that's the open creative mindset, Alex, that that we need, which is the opposite of the the closed, defensive, this is my position, I'm defending at all costs. Yeah. Um yeah. And and then your your ecosystems coming together, then you you know, your point earlier about adaptability, it's it's those species that that adapt to that that new merging that are the ones that thrive. Yeah.

Scott Plate 46:21

Yeah, I'm seeing this story play out. It's kind of funny. There's a there's some raised beds in our backyard, and it's they're fairly long, and then there's a division in the middle, and on one side we planted portulaca, which is a it's a flower, feels like a succulent, does very well in hot temperatures. And then the other side we planted a couple of different varieties of sedum. The portulaca has exploded, and the sedum on the other side has struggled to gamely hang on. And but what's happening is the portulaca is beginning to exceed the part of the space it had been planted in and to move into the other space. But I'm watching this process because just at the moment this portulaca began to expand, the sedum began to kind of expand. And I thought, this is quite a little drama. You know, I'd keep watching every day. We're watering, I'm watching, you know. And you could, and my the story I'm telling myself is the portulaca is feeling into this space to find out how much life is actually there before it decides to jump this barrier and root itself. And then, because if you look at the two of them, there's a lot more portulaca than there is sedum. There's quite a bit more. And it's dominant visual entity, there's a lot more energy there, and but this other minority point of view is not dead by any means. So taking that little metaphor into the theater space where I was trained, trying to come to terms with a bunch of artists who have a different view of a process and how it should appear in the space. You know, my job as director was to continue to expand it to include all of them, but not to the point that the unity principle would become unrecognizable. So there was a saturation point at which the meaning would begin to be diluted if I were just accommodating and accommodating. There was there was some kind of ground that we needed to be able to stand on together, which would allow us to go in different directions. And my job was to help people understand how large that ground needed to be, but how specific its genesis really needed to be. So I think holding the capacity for creative tension means I need to know where I stand and what's true for me. And I also need to acknowledge that it, that very likely it's going to take up a lot more space by the time we're done. And it may not recognize, we may not recognize where you know, where we were at the beginning, or along the way, we may lose track of what this is. But if we know enough and have enough faith in where we began together, then it's possible to change together, even if we don't recognize where we are. But the thing that was fun about the process was something none of us had considered, always had the potential to enter, you know, and because we were hungry for that newness and creating, we were moved toward it instinctively as a group because the space had had had produced it. So I think holding the tension creatively for me involves faith in other people and faith in what they bring to the space, but the rigidity is always a bad idea, and it tends to fall out of orbit all by itself, or it should be encouraged to go out of orbit, you know, to me. So that's where I have to watch my own control impulses. But so but this isn't you're you're not, I can say in creative tension, you're not really keeping me in mind or anybody else. So without that willingness, this situation cannot evolve. And having that in mind as a priority, and maybe if that's the only ground we stand on, that's true, that's probably more than enough.

Flexibility, Grounding, And Takeaways

Lyn Man 50:36

You know just even thinking of you know the the characteristics we have to hold to be able to to actually develop this capacity is that that openness, that curiosity, that uh trust within us and that ability to be okay with holding the space for ourselves and for others to have whatever shows up for for us, for them, whatever it is. But but they're not creating meaning from whatever their perspective, opinion, belief is. And it's as soon as we start creating meaning from that, we're taking ourselves away from that having that capacity to be able to to hold that s hold that space to be able to see what's what's possible and allow something different to emerge. So moving from that rigidity, when you were talking about rigidity, I was taken back to like a a tree trunk, you know, you look at a a magnificent oak and you think it's it is solid, but it still has to be able to give in the high winds or in the storms. And and so there always is some flexibility there. And so yeah, just to kind of draw this to towards an end what would what are you taking away actually from this?

Scott Plate 52:34

What are you taking as something that has emerged from this conversation that you didn't expect patience for me faith in the process, faith in the fact that we don't know moment to moment how this tension will resolve and what it it points up is tension is something to be honored.

Lyn Man 53:08

Thank you.

Alex Papworth 53:10

I suppose the thing that came to mind for me was just uh this is more prevalent than I'd realised. I was just thinking of a conversation I was having with my business partner Aiden earlier, and that was that was this this topic that in reference to helping him and me relate to a con conversation and and see attention and tease apart what meaning we were gonna make of it and what we're gonna action we're gonna take. Um because I think I I probably arrived here with a more of a you know, the whole tribal us and them, which is I sort of don't care that much about it because there's not much I can do about it. But in the day-to-day interactions of the utility of this usefulness of this is or seeing that and the value of being able to have that capacity for yeah, just everyday conversations that that matter, actually. And not a dramatic, you know, the Brexit example I started it started in with. It can be quite small, but still very important capability.

Lyn Man 54:20

Thank you.

Mark Henderson 54:22

I think you summed it up beautifully, Lyn, that that when we have the ability to hold space for ourselves first and foremost. And then you you you mentioned the tree, and part of the other part of the tree being uh having that flexibility in the wind is that it's well rooted and grounded. So so that's a big part of it, is is having being able to be centered and grounded yourself, to hold space for yourself. And then for me, I'm taking away the the the idea of courage to to hold those different tensions and to engage in those those conversations, and I think that that's our opportunity to to demonstrate that capacity when we're when we can have those those conversations around tensions that we sense, and even although we are not aligned to the other person's perspective, but can still hold that with full respect of that person and the journey they've been on. So so yeah, I think you know courage is a big part of it for me.

Closing And Where To Find More

Lyn Man 55:39

Thank you. Well, thank you all for coming along and sharing your thoughts and perspectives and allowing us to create something within this space. Okay. Thank you for listening to this episode of I Am Enough. We hope you enjoyed it and are inspired to see yourself as enough and create possibilities. If you would like to discover more, please visit earthaconter.org.