Are You Chasing Safety Or Creating Wholeness

“Safe space” is a popular phrase, but what does it look like when real people walk into a room with real histories, triggers, opinions, and nerves? 

Lyn Man is joined by Mark Henderson, Alex Papworth, and Scott Plate to unpack psychological safety and emotional safety with honesty, nuance, and a few unexpected lessons from the natural world. 

We explore the uncomfortable truth that facilitators cannot decide whether someone feels safe, even with the best intent. What we can do is build the conditions: people feeling seen and heard, clear group guidelines, and simple covenants like slowing down and leaving a pause after someone shares. We also talk about what happens when it goes wrong and why repair matters more than perfection, including the courage it takes to say “that did not land for me” and the ongoing commitment that makes those words possible. 

The conversation widens into relational safety, nervous system co-regulation, and the inner work that helps us show up with curiosity instead of judgement. From family stories about acceptance and becoming, to heart coherence and the way group energy spreads, we keep returning to the same point: shared safety helps all of us access wholeness and live from enoughness. If this resonates, subscribe, share with someone who leads groups, and leave us a review so more people can find the show.

Thank you for listening and taking the time to explore our podcast.

Earthaconter: Connection, Exploration and Expansion
www.earthaconter.org

Transcript

Why Safety Matters To Enoughness

Lyn Man 0:00

Welcome to I Am Enough, the space where we explore journeys back to our forgotten birthright of enoughness, to draw a natural wisdom along with awareness, acceptance, and compassion. To support each of us on that journey and embrace our wholeness. Despite what society tells us, each one of us is enough exactly as we are. My name is Lyn Man, and I'd like to welcome you to this space where we explore enoughness, people's journeys along the path to feeling I am enough, and look at what can support each of us on that journey. Hello and welcome to another episode of I Am Enough, the space where we embrace our wholeness. So today I have with me our some of our usual guests, Mark Henderson, Alex Papworth, and Scott Plate. And we're going to talk about safety today. And it's something that's that came up, has come up a number of times actually in our podcast, but that feeling of psychological safety, emotional safety. And we kind of have had a few discussions around what what does it actually look like and where do we look externally versus internally? Where do we feel safe enough to actually be our true selves? And actually what is it, you know, how do we become aware of what it is that makes us feel safe in a situation? And and I think it's interesting as well because you know, there's within you know, the coaching, therapeutic wellness spaces, there is all this conversation about creating a safe space and holding space for people. And it's like, well, what does that actually look like? Because in reality what each of us needs uh is potentially different. So I am just going to to open the conversation up now to whoever wants to contribute first and and see what emerges.

You Cannot Decide Who Feels Safe

Mark Henderson 2:28

Thanks then. I think uh maybe a good starting point is is just emphasizing the the the point that we we have we can have the intention of creating a safe space for people to step into, but uh we can't determine whether each individual actually feels safe. We can only do our best to create that space. So how safe each individual feels is dependent on a number of different factors. So yeah, uh throw it, throw it. I just wanted to to get that in at the start.

Lyn Man 3:05

Thanks.

Mark Henderson 3:06

But yeah, uh well, what do we do as facilitators, as coaches, to to make people to to to create that safe space or uh to to set about with that intention. And I think uh one important thing that I I'll start the conversation off with is making people feel seen and heard. So I think that's that's a key one. And the way that I tend to do that in a in a group situation is is to try and establish eye contact with everybody and not be not be rushed, just take time and really just try and find a a contact point with with each person in the circle if it if it is a group situation. And then I think that can build if there's conversations outside any sort of more formal circle. For me, there it's about empathy and and building on that, making people feel seen and heard by sh being interested in in that person and finding out who they are. Um so I'll start with that.

Scott Plate 4:26

I love I love that, Mark. I love that adding up the ingredients, you know, in a sense of safety. The thing that strikes me is you know, creating space for people. And then in addition, reflecting back to them, the fact that we believe they have intrinsic value by how we listen, by how we look at them, how we reflect as coaches, as facilitators. You know, one of our for me a work is I my pledge is to reflect to that individual, the highest and best version of themselves that I can sense them to be. And maybe they can see it in me and move toward it and feel safe because at least someone else does. And I can also, like at a group setting ad, for example, there's a woman I sit with in a death cafe, and she's a remarkable facilitator. And she runs it out of Austin, Texas, virtually. And what she asks participants in the in the group to do is when someone has finished speaking to allow space. So what happens is the person who has just spoken, the group intelligence communicates that there needs to be space created to receive what that individual has just shared. Because very often, you know, with the old adage, there are people who listen and people who wait to speak. Very often the people who wait to speak kind of drive through that offering and communicate without words that they haven't been listening, because what's uppermost in their mind comes immediately after, in a way. So safety is, I think, is a byproduct of making sure certain covenants are in place. I think, at least in a group setting, I I promise to see you, I promise to hear you as you shared, and I promise to create space for what you have to say. And the way I do that communicates that what you say has value. And not only for you, but for all of us, because we're going to allow it to land. Yeah.

Listening That Makes People Feel Valued

Alex Papworth 6:38

I'm going to uh respond to that, Scott, and hold my hand up to be in that person with my I'm gonna share this story. No, I'm not sure what Scott is saying now before you pay close attention. But I but I was, I was. And um I suppose one thing the covenants you were talking about was uh and this story is it's to do is to do with something happened to me the last year in this community, but it's that what's important here is that commitment and the ongoing d uh demonstration of it, I think, to being seen and being heard and understood. So that in itself I think is is is is is well for in this particular scenario is is significant to to speak up and say, whether you say I don't feel safe or that was uncomfortable for me or whatever it might be, then then the act of doing that is is is you know permitted if you like, because that's the cultural space, that's what's been said. So it's okay to say that didn't land so well with me. So anyway, just so briefly, so last year I can't I think maybe it was May or something last year, and you may or may not remember this, but I think I did I did bring this up. But I remember going to a I think it was a nature of business session and and there was a there was a sort of a round table of sharing and I had something to say and I'd, you know, not necessarily articulated it very well. And at the end of the session, I hadn't had my chance in quotes to speak, and I was very, you know, after that session I was quite uncomfortable and felt you know, and I I guess I'm somebody who who has I have to work at the group sessions to some extent and pay attention to what's going on for me. But it was actually quite useful in some ways, because it reminded me of past experiences that maybe contributed towards that. But I could have kept quiet, I think is the point. And I don't even know how you guys remember this, but I certainly had a conversation with myself and started exploring, you know, the white and the west walls of of that. And to, you know, what what was that what was missing, you know, did I did I state my needs clearly enough, or um, you know, w was there a problem with the facilitation? And I think Lyn, we probably had a conversation if you remember subsequent. So I think I think there's by yeah, hopefully that's illustrative, but I think for me one of the key things as well is that that commitment and the ongoing commitment to to sort of supporting, to being supported to be yourself. And to be honest with you, those opportunities are great when it messes up. Because if you don't mess up, then it's it's uh how how do we prove it? You know, when you mess up is as in I feel unsafe or I was uncomfortable, whatever it was, then you're gonna get then then you that's there's no evidence, it's it's words, but it's a bit suspicious, like if it ever, you know, if there's no trip-ups and things to to explore that need to be addressed. So for me, that's that's you know, ongoing commitment is important evidence for that. And then, yeah, as I say, sort of actual opportunities of let's call it unsafeness, and so we can work, you know, working through then what does that mean? What do I need to do? Is there anything else other people can learn and so forth?

Mark Henderson 9:59

So uh yeah. Yeah, well what comes up from me, Alex, as you're speaking, is the you know, responsibility. So obviously the whoever's holding the space has a responsibility, but each individual also has their own responsibility to look after their own needs, and and perhaps that's something that a a facilitator needs to voice at the beginning of a session, so that they feel comfortable to to speak up if if they don't feel safe or if it's something that that's that that's not right. So yeah, that's that's an interesting an interesting angle. And another another thing I think it's important is that we feel invited and welcomed into the space. And it sort of talks to what you shared, Scott, about um you know that that we um Yeah, that that we we see feel seen and heard, but um more than that, it's it's the the the energy that we facilitate in and value each participant for who they are and their contribution, or just who they are first and foremost, is is really uh an important part of it too.

Scott Plate 11:26

Yeah, I think I think it's I remember reading something I'm blanking on the provenance of it, where there was archaeologists were discovering, you know, evidence early on, because I think safety sometimes emerges as a counterargument to survival of the fittest. And we think of earlier versions of ourselves as, you know, trying to do what they can to survive, but there was evidence in a bone they found that the person had had broken a bone or a leg and it had been set. And I forget whether who who the anthropologist was, whether it was Margaret Mead, I can't remember. I'm just pulling things out of the air right now. But to this Yeah, to this observ exactly to this observer, there was clear investment in the value of the other person, even if they weren't injured. And therefore, in in in a in a difficult situation where people are relying on everyone, every link in the chain needs to be self-sustaining. The evidence of that was interesting. Yeah, I think the other thing that I think strikes me is the movement from do I feel safe? And I'll do what I can to keep myself safe, self-preservation, to what is necessary for others to feel safe. I mean, animals often, you know, I was we were speaking before this about this sort of experience I have walking through herds of deer in the morning when I go out on my morning walk, and they feel safe in this herd, clearly, and I'm a soul interloper coming through there, but I'm very aware of my own presence when I walk through them because they're hyper alert, as deer tend to be. And I keep thinking, what would help them feel safe? And I'm completely outnumbered here. I mean, there's 30 of them, and there's me. And the question came up later do I feel safe with all these deer, which are not known to be attacking animals, although I think I shared there's one who seems like she'd bring it if she needed to. But I'm wondering how much safety perhaps needs to evolve from what keeps a space safe. In other words, I need to believe intrinsically in the value of every human being and their sense of wholeness. Because I think safety comes from the word uh salvation or whole. It has to do with wholeness, you know? And how can we create a sense of wholeness so that everyone who participates in a space feels well or has the capacity to feel well? But it's, I think in time we move from I need to feel safe to we all benefit from our common safety. We all do. Each person individually, you know, benefits when everyone around us feels safe. Because empathically, my nervous system will pick up on someone else's dysregulated nervous system. And then I begin to mirror that, mirror neurons without even realizing it. And all of a sudden I feel safe. I feel unsafe because I sense that there's someone else in the room who feels that way. So anything I can contribute to the well to the common welfare as it pertains to safety, I think benefits me as well.

Speaking Up When You Feel Unseen

Lyn Man 14:54

Yeah. It's interesting. You've you've all brought up a real variety of different things, but you're just coming back to what you were talking about then, Scott, which pertains to all of it, is it's the almost the environment that we're in. And I think part of that is making, you know, the word I wrote down earlier with structure and guidelines, and particularly in a group situation, it's like that actually knowing what's acceptable for want of a better word, and what's you know, how what what will it take for this group this space in this group or this environment so everybody is feeling that they understand how to treat each other or how to listen, how to go back to what what what Mark was saying about that that they are seen and heard and again and and I loved what you shared with the the death the in the death cafe, Scott, with that actually that gap, that pause to just actually let the person understand they had been heard, but also to let everything, everyone else to really take on board what had been said. So for me it's very much around that, and I I had this recently when I I started doing a a training, and it started off with these guidelines, and it wasn't even just so there was the the guidelines that had been created by the facilitator, but then she invited everybody to to sense into well what else needed to be in there and and what else needed to come out, and that was for me was was a really a beautiful way of doing it because that recognised that we all need different things. And it wasn't even, you know, one of the things that that was shared wasn't actually around we often think of keeping s people safe as it's like a, you know, I'm almost seeing like cotton wool around and keeping people but it wasn't around that. It was actually by us accepting that there was going to be ongoing change and everybody was going to be going through it, and it was you know, it was about growth. And for me that was was really telling because these we s it was setting the tone almost for what was how we could show up in that space. And and I think that's very much the case. And w one of the things, you know, I really love with our conversations, you know, yes, so we're recording this and it's it's going out, it's you know, anybody in the world could listen to it. But I appreciate that you're all very open and honest and sharing your personal stories, your thoughts, your insights throughout it. And to me that's really meaningful because I don't sense that you're ever holding back and feeling constrained by this environment. So to me, actually, that that feeling of safety isn't about necessarily creating a space that is constraining, it's creating a space that can flex and grow with what people need in there. And particularly as people learn to to come, you know, to feel their own internal safety. And going back to what Alex shared, I totally remember that that conversation, Alex, because it was a total misunderstanding. Yeah, but you raised it, and I think that's the thing, it is that having the ability to actually this has made me feel less valued or whatever it is, uncomfortable, and the ability to share that. So really, you know, even just listening to you has kind of changed how I've almost or it's expanded how I've perceiving this topic of or almost what a safe space is.

Alex Papworth 19:51

So I want to I want to interject if that's safe.

Lyn Man 19:56

Okay.

Alex Papworth 19:57

You were talking about growth then, and I I was reflecting on the sometimes the the language and how it's interpreted can be limiting. And to me, I was thinking, well safety doesn't mean painless. And you know, growth is growth is I mean, it's a bit of an evocative word to say it involves pain, but it certainly involves can involve discomfort. So I think that's for me is important to clarify. And then that's and that being an example, you know, where I was uncomfortable and uh but growth came from this. So I think there's something here about about a yes, safety doesn't mean pain-free. In fact, it's almost the opposite. It's almost uh design to be painful, but um that's where the growth happens and and I think in my sense of this space, you know, we what we want from this conversation, I think collectively, and I think hopefully speaking on behalf of all of us to some degree is about helping others to understand, you know, trying to articulate this, trying to put it into the words so that other people can come at this from a let's say um well slightly more enlightened and patronizing things like that coming up, but uh they find it useful at the end of the day. They find it useful, maybe find a different perspective on on this sort of topic that is they can take away with them and and use in spaces that they hadn't previously had, and I I I'm I'm fairly confident that's at least part of the intention of of everyone sitting in this group. And I'm sure they'll be quite happy to tell me I'm wrong if that's the case.

Scott Plate 21:30

No, I I appreciate that you felt safe enough to say you didn't feel safe or respect it. For example, you know, there there's a certain modicum of confidence in the intrinsic nature of a group when someone can speak up and say, you know, I this is not hitting me in the right way, and I know it's contrary to what maybe the perception, but I need to tell you, I think the a lack of safety would have precluded that comment and made it probably less possible to make. So I hear you

Safety As Relational And Cultural

Scott Plate 22:02

with that. And I remember teaching in universities. My last time there was probably in 2020. But what was happening culturally and politically in the U.S. was really trickling down to college campuses and students who were really becoming clear about what they intrinsically believed as opposed to what they'd inherited and thought was true. There was a zeitgeist that really revolved around the word safety. This space doesn't feel safe to me, for example, was a common theme. And, you know, there were older, crusty faculty members saying, well, that's the real world. And you, this isn't a safe place. And, you know, you need to learn to suck it up. And it was just like, oh boy, this is, you know, not necessarily the most constructive dialogue we're having here because a student is finally feeling safe enough to be able to say they don't feel safe. And we're telling them not to feel safe. So, and I understood that, you know, people may have different, as Mark began by saying, different ideas about what safety is and how it, how it manifests. But I think the the what's becoming more and more true for me is there's a kind I was just writing about this and it was struggling with this as I was writing about it. There's a life that comes through us that is whole and complete. And the world drowns it out for a long time. The world is confusing and noisy and often very frightening, at least it was for me, because how I came through was not what the world supported initially, who I was as a gay man. And I didn't feel safe in the world. I I hid it because I wanted to appear as though I felt safe. And but what I was was quiet and immovable, and it wasn't going anywhere. And what the strange thing was for me is that was my safety, that was my wholeness, but I could not find it. I couldn't look at it, I couldn't look for it. And, you know, I had to feel, I had to risk, as Alex was saying earlier, but it's a different context. But it's the same thing that he's saying to be able to say, this isn't, this space isn't okay for me. And I have to make it okay. So I didn't have a lot of tools to work with at that point. I did speak to people who I knew would, I would, with whom I would find sympathy. And I had to navigate my way by really groping blind for that solid piece of me that was trying to come through that I had done everything in the world I could to ignore. So the funny thing is, paradoxically, is what sustains me is what I avoid often when it comes to safety. Because it means really risking being who I am. And if that gets released in the world, I might wind up alone and the herd abandons me. We talked about herds earlier, and then all of a sudden there's no connection. But as time has gone on, I recognize that for me, safety, true, true safety is inherently relational. That I know that you accept me. You know, I go through the the iteration of, well, I don't need you to accept me. I'm fine on my own, but I'm not really fine on my own, am I? I'm I'm I'm I want to believe I am. But I think safety comes from when I sense that you have my well-being uppermost in mind as well. So it's it's an interesting, it's constructed, and we have to deconstruct versions that we think make safety true. But it in the end, it's being with others relationally and trusting that my well-being is part of what makes the group feel whole.

Mark Henderson 25:55

Yeah, that's um that's made me think, Scott, that um, you know, what what does it what responsibility do each of us have to feel safe and and what makes us feel safe? And I totally agree with you. It's it's all about our relations and a relation to our relationship to ourself. And in an ideal world we would all be self-sufficient in that, but we're we're not in an ideal world and we're all messy and healing and on our journey. So it's those relationship with others that that's creates or or or doesn't that that feeling of safety. And I I would just like to focus on um you know what what happens in a group when when everybody has a a level of safety that that they feel comfortable with. And I I was was able to experience this just the last few days on a on a retreat, which was very brilliantly facilitated. OD for life. And w what I experienced in myself and saw in others was that we were all able to be step into being ourselves, and perhaps even, you know, the the highest version of ourselves. And and that had a sort of knock-on effect because that state of being in in in a let's say the majority sort of helped to to build that energy and that that feeling of safety in others. And it became yeah, a really wonderful thing to be part of. And really in any any space that we're trying to that we're inviting people into in this way, uh our goal is surely to to support them to, as we said, to grow in some aspect, to to look at themselves, to to to step more fully into who they are. So uh maybe that that helps just to emphasize why this is this is so important in the work that's that that we do. Yeah.

Lyn Man 28:18

Yeah. It's interesting with that, because I'm really glad you shared your your experience, Mark, because you you'd shared some of that with us earlier. And and part of what came through was that was there was an element of interest and curiosity with people. And for me, you know, and it goes back to also what what Scott was sharing earlier about, you know, within the US and and it's not just the US, it's everywhere, but there's there is this polarity, which we had a conversation about previously. And I think that in itself has created an element of almost shutting people down from feeling they can be themselves fully, because if they doesn't matter what side, what opinion, or not having an opinion even, it kind of they're opening themselves up to somebody judging what's been said, and it's no longer you know, used to be able to have conversations where it was coming from that curiosity, that interest. It's like, okay, so and Alex before has mentioned program in the UK, radio programme, I think it was Alex, the the red line.

Alex Papworth 29:40

Oh, the red yeah, crossing the red line, yeah.

Lyn Man 29:43

Yeah, where they explore how somebody got to, you know, their opinion. And for me it's very much around we don't know what somebody's experience has been, we don't know what they've been exposed to in terms of, you know, their their cultural upbringing, the the beliefs of their family, of where they've you know everything that's happened in their life. And the only way we can start to to understand is by being open and showing up as being open to however they they show up. And but part of it as well is we have to start to do that for ourselves because very often, you know, we have this inner critic, we have we judge ourselves for and it becomes a bit of a habit that if we start to shut ourselves down, then when we go into a situation, we can start to immediately apply that outside of ourselves and start to shut others down. So again, it comes back to the doing the inner work first and making ourselves feel safe with ourselves. And when we hear that voice, you know, coming from going back to that being responsible, coming from that place of being the responsible adult and going, actually, you know what, to yourself, that that's not true, you know. It's you you're just being hard on yourself, whatever it is. But when we can start to do that, I think from ourselves for ourselves and start to sort of make ourselves feel comfortable, then we don't take that in the same way into our spaces with with others. And we are more from coming from that place of the responsible adults and and open and curious as to to who's showing up and how we can be in this space and what we can learn from them. Because I think that's one of the the amazing things is that we we learn from every conversation we have, every interaction we have, if we want to. So yeah, I'd I'd love to hear your thoughts on that and also your own experiences around it.

Safety Does Not Mean Painless

Scott Plate 32:17

It's such a I think I really value what you're saying, Lyn, and harkens back to what Mark shared about how we can be in a space in a way that encourages people to become fully themselves. And I grew up with my father's terror that I was going to be an actor. And I didn't realize what he was trying to do was keep me safe because it was a fear he had never really conquered. He wanted to be a cartoonist, but was afraid of the rejection, and he transferred that to me. And all I remember feeling from him was just opposition and anger, and you know, what you're doing is stupid. But on his deathbed, he was able to share with me that he'd been frightened on my behalf and he didn't he wanted to keep me safe. And the thing that's interesting to me about what you're sharing, Lyn, I think it's critical when it comes to establishing safety, is how can we be interested in what's becoming even when we're not sure what it is? And this is, you know, we talked a little before our session today about, you know, I'm the one of us in the group who's never had his own children. And the three of you have had children. So it must be interesting to sit in front of something that is actively becoming something that you might not have been able to imagine, imagine and still remain curious, you know, about what this is, because that's an essential ingredient in creating safety in a space, that I love you no matter what, and you're okay no matter what. Whatever you become, you're my child, or you know, I accept you intrinsically. I didn't get that message from my father. I also misinterpreted what he was trying to communicate. What he was trying to communicate really was, I feel frightened on your behalf. And he finally shared with me, you know, when he was dying, you know, he was trying to explain how he was such an active opponent to this. He just said, you know, I just, I couldn't have handled the rejection, he said, you know, and I thought, okay, it's just helpful to know even later in my life that that's what was going on. And I just thought, okay, you know, I'm glad I'm having this conversation with you. And I'm really glad to know that now because it would have saved me a lot of heartache earlier to know this, but maybe he wasn't ready to share that. But I think trying to hold a space that that upholds the intrinsic value of someone's becoming, even if we can't see where that path is headed, and not really know is an essential component of creating safety. Because if I know I'm loved and I know I'm accepted and I get that early, then I will risk more easily in life.

Alex Papworth 34:57

There's uh there's a lot you brought up, Scott, but I'm be keen just to pin in, if I can, your uh conversation with your your dad and um that because that that felt really it was obviously very resonant, but it was just that. It was the time that's required and the intention that's required and the commitment that's required for those relationships and the things that are unsaid, and that feels quite transferable to I don't know, let's say, you know, non-family relationships of the safe spaces that we've been talking about. Because I feel it needs to be I wanted to be really clear, this isn't simple and quick. You don't create you just create you just create a safe space, and and Lyn, you were touching on that. Well, it starts with you. You know, if you start with you and then you know, and then you you probably get some value from that, that reflective time and that inner growth, and then perhaps you're ready to be actually responsible for yourself and then then to enter these spaces with that sort of you know, not fixed by any means, but at least having an intention, a sort of desire to to see what happens, to see what what grows from it. But it I don't know, I just feel it can't be you can't stay you can't stay too strongly the the the the time and the attention and the care I suppose required to to to sort of surface, discuss, explore. I mean there's that there's also what's going to be vulnerable, I mean there's also much going on in that, isn't there? So um yeah, I'm not sure where that leads us, but it's I just wanted to go and just shine a light on that for a moment and just I suppose as much as anything, it's just saying recognising I don't want to say it's hard, because I don't think it's hard, it's just it's hard if you if you're just not choosing, if you're just not ready. It's easy in a sense that when you're ready, you think this is gonna be quite challenging. However, I don't actually have a choice. This is the way I'm going, and I'm I'm not gonna go backwards or sideways. So, okay, let's see what happens next. Uh let's see what lesson comes up next, you know. Because this is because this is a path I've chosen. So I don't think yeah, harder harder easy isn't isn't so relevant, but I think it needs to be recognized that it's you know the time and energy and chaos that's required. There there's there's a lot. So so just pin out of that now.

Mark Henderson 37:33

I I can pick that up, Alex. I think um it's very much a process and uh like anything, we the more we put ourselves in in that position, the more we learn, the more comfortable we feel, and the more prepared we're we are to to sit in the the discomfort of the situation and the group. So if if we can create that feeling of safety within ourselves through grounding ourselves, just getting ourselves in the right state before we invite into that space, then that as we've touched on already, I'm sure that has a huge impact on on how the rest of the group feels coming in. And something that we we often we're only really beginning to understand is is the sort of the physics and the chemistry around our our being and how that affects those around us. If I think of um, you know, the the energy that comes from our hearts and that that you know is is measurable outside our bodies by by a few meters. And I remember actually on a retreat leading a group um on a on a walk, and we came to a field of of young calves, and the group sort of I I would just kept on walking. I was I was leading and noticed that there was nobody behind me. The group had sort of stopped and uh were wondering, you know, really? Are we gonna really walk past these cows? Who I should say that were were getting closer and closer because they were young and they were in just so curious, you know. And and I stopped and I turned around and I sort of gathered the group and I said, this is a great opportunity for us just to sink into our hearts and practice coherence. So just to sort of make contact with your your heart and take a few breaths there and realize that you're not, we're together here, we're much of a bigger threat to them, they're just curious, and you know, send them send them some compassion. And and it was absolutely amazing what happened because we we took a few moments there and then we continued walking, and they just sort of stopped and in a group. They didn't come any closer and and let us pass. And it was like, you know, something invisible had been dropped on top of them that you know stopped them from moving outside their their tight, compact, compact herd. So I really believe in the this the effect that our state of being has on ourselves, obviously, but but also on those that that are around us. So yeah, that there's there's a quite a lot of responsibility for us to to do what we need to do individually to get into that uh that state and hopefully allow the nervous systems in the room to just sort of fall follow suit and to to relax.

Scott Plate 40:52

Yeah. But I'm hearing you so go ahead, Lyn. You were about to say something.

Coherence And Nervous System Contagion

Lyn Man 40:56

Oh thank you. Yeah, no, when you and it was the same thought came to mind when you were speaking earlier, Scott, about the when you because you're empathic, you pick up on what everybody else is feeling in the room. And but it's the same when you know when Mark shared this and that that state. And I don't know if you've ever seen this a video somewhere on YouTube and it has these, I think it's pendulums swinging and they they're all started off at different and gradually over time they come into sync. And it's shows exactly what you're describing, Mark, it is that when we you know our state can influence those around us and you know I've noticed that as well with when I've had conversations with people how sometimes when I'm introducing somebody because I've had a a short conversation with before them beforehand, I speak so much faster than other times. And it's I've tuned into the energy of the person. Not necessarily that they're not grounded, because most of them are because of you know the work they're doing, but it's just that their energy runs faster or slower. And and I do find it fascinating when we start to look at actually how we we can adapt and how if we start to, you know, as Mark gave a beautiful example just then, come from our heart and spread that out, and particularly, you know, get others to do the same, then it can have that that big impact. So yeah.

Scott Plate 42:50

No, it's it's I think what I'm hearing to hearken back to what Alex was saying, you know, to not overestimate or underestimate the time it takes to create safety and coherence, and that it's a practice that's best begun and sustained. So that, for example, anyone who meditates knows that, you know, it's a little different. It's a different process, you know, to try to get an access, access a part of yourself that feels whole and still, because we're competing with our own thoughts very often. But the more we stay with it, you know, the more we realize it's possible, you know, the more often we walk that path through the grass, the more visible to us it becomes that we can get to this place because there's a part of us that remembers the way. And when we know the way, we make the way possible for other people. And I think the practice that, you know, of coherence, of presence, of I will just say, for lack of a better way of saying it, just a the belief that everyone deserves to feel safe, the belief that everyone deserves this sense of access. Is not just a discussion topic. It's a practice that we get better at as we commit to it. And as Alex was saying, it it he's I I appreciated you saying it. I don't want to say that this is hard, but it does require a commitment. It does require a commitment to the value of this for not just everyone else, but for me. And I am not well if everyone around me isn't. I can't be. You know, I can tell myself a story that I am and keep myself feeling good for the time being. But that at the end of the day, you know, I'm a mammal, I'm a relational being. I need, I need the society of other people. You know, there are times when I it's a little overwhelming and I have to be off by myself in the woods, but that's not the normal way of being for me. But the reason I think sometimes I do have to be off by myself in the woods is that I haven't felt safe with other people. And so, and part of the reset for me is I'm going to go someplace that just sees me. You know, and I do believe, you know, this is maybe silly, but I believe that I'm seen where I go with trees, and I believe that I have a presence. Not that I'm creating it, but for that for those places in nature that I have my my presence there has a consequence for them. And I have to be responsible for it, you know, by how I carry myself and how I stay within myself. And and it's a reminder that I can be this way when I am around people. So it's a nice, it's a nice lesson from a tree to simply just be in my own space and you know, respect the relationship between myself and others. But I also love um the example of the calves mark the just their curiosity. On the other side of the spectrum, I was up in Albuquerque, and there's a place alongside the Rio Grande called the Bosque, which is the woods in Spanish. It's the, and and there are turkeys everywhere, wild turkeys, and they're in bands. And there's a Tom turkey who's responsible for all of the hens in the in the covey. And turkeys are not necessarily curious by nature, wild turkeys. They're quite territorial. So I remember trying to find a place to walk, and someone said, Oh, there's a path down to the Bosque from where you're staying, and just as over her shoulder, but watch out for the turkeys as she was walking away. I said, Okay. So I'm walking on this path really early in the morning, and there's like probably 20 or 30 turkeys in a herd crossing the path. And there was one, probably 20% larger than all of them, you know, between me and the and the herd, the flock or the covey. I think the collective noun for turkeys is escaping me at the moment, but you just walking between me. But there was this interesting feeling I had from this turkey, is you need to respect me, this feeling of, and I'm like, okay, all right, I just I do. And I, you know, there are more of you than there are of me. And you were here first, and I'm I'm new. And but it was interesting. It was this, I don't know, it's hard to explain, and I might be making up stories, but it was a presence that compelled my respect. And it wasn't forcing me to respect it, because it wasn't aggressive, but it was absolutely sure of itself. And it set an example for me to be in this with them in a different way. And, you know, so it's it's funny. It it safety doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to be curious or it's going to feel good, as Alex said, because sometimes I'm compelled into a sense of respect. Sometimes I'm invited by curious calves who just want to see what these humans are all about. But my work is to, is to pick the meaning from the code that I'm getting, regardless of where I am, to try to find out what the wavelength is or the heart coherence, as Mark was saying, so that I can contribute in a way that contributes to the well-being of that shared space. And the culture may have a different tone wherever I am. But I need to look for what it is that's coherent. You know, that's part of my responsibility. That's why I heard Mark saying earlier, what's my responsibility here? You know, in addition to creating access, is to look for what the tone is and to not match it or become something else, but to respect it.

Mark Henderson 49:00

I'm laughing at myself because I'm sitting here thinking, yeah, that's enough about safety. Do I really want to live my life? It's not it's not my default way of living my life. So uh but yeah, it's in a obviously we're talking about a very specific context here, but uh I have to chuckle at myself. I I sense the energy of that turkey, Scott, that it was like authoritative and and there was something that it communicated with that didn't leave you in any doubt without it being aggressive. And that that those natural sort of vibes, you know, between and between uh mammals and is is uh animals and it's so interesting.

Scott Plate 49:47

Oh, absolutely it. It's ex absolut literally the turkey had words out of the side of its eye. It was we're gonna move at the speed of safety here. And they took their time crossing that path, and they let me know by the tempo rhythm of how they moved that we're going to all be nice to each other here. All right. And it wasn't, and it wasn't an order, it was just what we were going to do. And I thought to myself, this is kind of and it was early in the morning, there's nobody else out. I'm just it's a beautiful place. And, you know, but the trail was a loop. And I remember walking when it was safe and the turkeys had all crossed. I'm like, I'm probably gonna run into these guys again because I'm coming around, and I did, but by this point they had crossed, you know, and I didn't, we didn't have a a little contre-etemps that we we were, you know, we'd they'd moved beyond it. But uh I wondered later whether or not they felt safe as a result of the first encounter, that they didn't have to guard their territory quite so much because how how the first one had gone. But again, I could be telling myself stories.

Alex Papworth 51:00

I love the um the opportunity that presents, just the opportunity that we can all have to practice uh in and you don't need to justify or explain, you just can experience it and tune and see what it means to you. So, you know, potentially potentially bringing it back to human spaces or uh or whatever. But um, yeah, the the lack of judgment and the ability to to do that. I would say I had an experience with an ancient olive tree, very different, but there was actually a big element of respect as well. I wanted to go and visit this olive tree in them in Crete, because there was something that was reputed to be 3,000 years old, I think, so I had to go and visit it. Wow. This feeling of just show some respect to your elders. And it looked like he was very much an elder, as you might imagine, an olive tree of that age. And um just, you know, there was that. Ooh, this is exciting, a really old olive tree. That was not the right energy to be bringing to this place. It was just like, okay. I am 3,000 years old, so I think you should be uh behaving appropriately.

Scott Plate 52:07

That's amazing. Was it a huge like a circumferential kind of tree or was it something small?

Alex Papworth 52:13

That's more sort of, you know, the the perimeter and some of the hollow than all twisted and you know you know, just it is evoked age. Three thousand. Yeah. Yeah. But um, yeah, us humans work on different timescales and we've got a few minutes left before we need to wrap up, are we Lyn?

Final Reflections And Closing

Lyn Man 52:36

So Yeah, I know. I was just looking at that, and I just wanted to you know, y I think it's been interesting very much with with with presence the awareness, going back to what you've you were sharing, is it's very much about that awareness. And unless we're aware in the space we're in, we we don't pick up on the cues. But I also before we finish, I want to go back to what Mark said and by living in safety is not his where he wants to come from. But actually earlier I was like, for me, it was like actually when you create that, when you are safe enough within yourself, you can take the risk. So it's a very interesting tension that actually you're not you it's not that you're wrapping yourself in cotton wool mark, it's actually that the having that inner safety allows you is what's allowing you to go or come yeah, I don't know if that's the right wording even, but it's always it's like it brings this Yes so so I'll I I I sometimes react to the when people say take care, it's like you know, well, I'm not sure I need to.

Mark Henderson 53:53

Uh so it's like stay safe until you don't have to. It's coming to me now. Because you've got that inner safety that you you mentioned.

Lyn Man 54:04

Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Plate 54:06

Stay safe until it doesn't make sense to you anymore.

Lyn Man 54:08

Yeah. Totally. Right. Well, yes, as Alex reminded me, we're conscious of time. So a couple of words each to finish off. What do you what's what's come out for you today?

Mark Henderson 54:27

Something about there's a lot about animals, isn't there? And this this animal instinct in us, and now we have the the innate uh ability to to create safety for ourselves, but but you know, this conversation has been more about creating safety for others. Yeah. And it's something that uh we c we can all step into more.

Alex Papworth 54:57

Just seems like safety is almost just being aware and maybe a tune as well.

Lyn Man 55:04

Yeah. Well, thank you all very much. It's been a wonderful conversation as always, and I look forward to our next one.

Alex Papworth 55:15

Thank you. Thank you.

Lyn Man 55:19

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