Mind Over Masculinity
Let’s stop asking men to "man up" and start asking how we can lift them up. After all, mental health is not just a women’s issue or a men’s issue—it’s a human issue.
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Mind Over Masculinity
Breaking the Mold: Redefining Masculinity - Mark Firehammer
Masculinity isn't something we're born with—it's something we're taught. But what if those teachings don't serve us? What would it take to break free?
Mark Firehammer, co-creator of Feelness, joins us for a deeply personal exploration of masculinity beyond cultural conditioning. Through powerful stories of his own father and grandfather, Mark reveals how rigid gender expectations can lead men down paths of emotional unavailability, unhappiness, and even self-destruction. His vulnerability creates space for us to question our own inherited patterns.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Mark connects physical movement with masculine expression. Having rejected traditional fitness paradigms that glorify "the grind" and aggressive posturing, he discovered that the same natural movements we use as infants can restore our physical wellbeing at any age. This revelation parallels his approach to masculinity itself—listening to our authentic needs rather than forcing ourselves into painful molds.
One particularly powerful moment comes when Mark shares a story about a 12-year-old boy who misunderstood "toxic masculinity" to mean that being masculine was inherently toxic. Through this anecdote, Mark clarifies that toxicity stems not from masculinity itself but from behaviors lacking empathy and respect—often resulting from the unhappiness of men trapped in roles that don't fit them.
Whether you're questioning your own relationship with masculine expectations or hoping to create healthier models for the next generation, this episode offers both compassionate understanding and practical first steps toward authenticity. As Mark reminds us, true transformation begins when we give ourselves permission to feel our way into new possibilities rather than accepting the limitations we've been handed.
Ready to rethink what masculinity means for you? Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation that's helping men move from autopilot to intentional living.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Mind Over Masculinity, the podcast where we question, redefine and reconstruct what it means to be a man in today's world. Now, today we are going deep, like peeling an onion. Deep, right, because it's time we examine where so many of our societal expectations around gender come from and, more importantly, like what we can do if they don't serve us. Right? That's a great way of thinking, right? So how do we move beyond that rigid boxes that we have placed in and how do we exchange those outdated norms for something that actually feeds who we are? So these are the real conversations that help us move from autopilot to intentional living. And who better to guide us and explore than someone who knows a thing or about the movement, both physically and mentally? My guest today is Mark Firehammer, so welcome to the show, mark.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, Avik, so happy to be here, and this is a topic that I'm just so excited to have with you.
Speaker 1:Lovely, lovely, great Mark. So before we start, I'll quickly love to introduce you to all the listeners. So, dear listeners, mark is the co-creator of Feelness, a movement that is based approach to maintaining the independence and avoiding the physical decline that society often tells us is inevitable. So, at the age of 60, he completely changed his approach to health ditching pain, regaining the mobility and proving the transformation. That I mean isn't about grinding through the painful workouts, but about listening to the body in a whole new way. But also here like what if we applied that same philosophy not just to the movement, but to how we approach masculinity? Right, there are a lot of things to think about, right? So what if we felt our way into new possibilities instead of forcing ourselves into the old molds? Right? So that's the discussion we are diving deep into. So welcome to the show again, mark, and I really can't wait to dive in.
Speaker 2:Me too, you know. I just love. One of the things that you just said is the old molds. In my opinion I think you and I we probably share this the old modes, they're actually the molds M-O-L-D-S. That's the problem is when you simply just accept that mold that's handed to you by your culture and it doesn't serve you and you said that in the opening too. Figure out what doesn't serve us. Therein lies the problem, and masculinity and femininity is deeply rooted in those molds.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. I have to say this. I mean, um, so, like, as I mentioned at the beginning, like, uh, the layers of gender expectations. I mean so, according to you, like, where do you think that most of our ideas about masculinity actually come from? Like, are they kind of hardwired or kind of more like the habits that we picked up from the society? What?
Speaker 2:do you say, yeah, it's definitely habits. I mean, I'm the 62-year-old's bull and the lit the bell and the lit the Well, in part because of the gender role that they were given by culture, right, they were both emotionally broken and they struggled to try to live the life that they were told to live and didn't have the permission. I guess is the way I like to put it. Nothing gave them the permission to be something other than what they were told to be, and in this country it's. You know, get whatever education, you can, get a job, earn the money, raise a family, support the family. But they're really, for me, the dangerous part in that is that they're then indoctrinating the new versions of them, the children, into the same role that they're struggling in themselves, without even really realizing it got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like uh, okay, I mean uh. Was there a moment in your life when you realized that, uh, these expectations weren't necessarily working for you.
Speaker 2:So anything like this yeah, it was less about they weren't working for me, because I always I kind of always knew they weren't working for me, but what? What I paid more attention to is how they weren't working. There's be here and the, and people found me to what I. I didn't know he was actually a songwriter, but he never got to really express that he took his own, that I was born and I didn't learn of this from my own father. I learned it from my father's sister, who was more emotionally available and able to communicate her experience of her own dad who had taken his life, and so that was a big thing in my 30s, like okay, here's a man that is. Actually I'm like him and I'm living in a culture that doesn't give me permission to not toe the line and get the job that earns the money and make the babies and have the garage and the two cars and the big house and work, work, work, work, work, work.
Speaker 2:It was so bad for him that he took his own life. My father, as a reflection of that, didn't take his own life, but I'm going to be honest. You know he might as well have, and he sort of did in a way, because he was so emotionally unavailable to the people in the world around him that this gender role that he had been given didn't even allow him to hear the voice inside of him that I believe is in all of us that is your own voice, telling you how could you live your heart's desire, what could you be that would really give you purpose in your life? And those two men, sad examples, never had or took the opportunity to make a decision for or against a different choice than what they've been told yeah, I agree on this.
Speaker 1:yeah, that I mean that's really uh and to thought about and it's also sometimes it's fascinating like so much of what we think is like just the way it. Is it actually really just conditioning? So I accept that I mean it means we have the power to change it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Infinite choices. I like to call him my buddy, but I've never met Deepak Chopra. Infinite choices I like to call him my buddy, but I've never met him. Deepak Chopra, he always says in all of his books and his teachings that the universe is the infinite choice and it's just a matter and you said it in the opening making a different choice, slowing down and identifying hey, this isn't working for me. I'm going to seek out and make another choice and hey, you know what? That other choice may not work for you either, but there's only one way to find out is try something different. You know? Oh, I want to.
Speaker 2:Can I tell you a story about a 12 year old that ran into my life? This is right on the subject and this is why I think of this idea of masculinity. That's toxic. You know it's a. It's a.
Speaker 2:Masculinity is the thing and toxic is the description of the thing. Sweet young boy and he goes to his mom and he says mom, I'm a boy, but I'm hearing about all this toxic masculinity and, as a 12 year old, what he heard was masculinity is toxic. He didn't. He didn't have the experience to process that and he was hurting at 12 years old, right At 12 years old, I can't even imagine that, because it didn't exist. Toxic masculinity wasn't a thing, it wasn't a phrase that was created, and his mom and his mom's friend pointed out to him that it's not masculinity itself that's toxic, it's the behavior that men can be observed to be exhibiting that's toxic.
Speaker 2:And that's when this 12-year-old learned that it's not masculinity at all, it's just human behavior. If we set aside the feminine and the masculine and simply look at the human, how is the human behaving? Is it toxic? Does it lack empathy? Is it hateful? Does it lack respect? That's what's toxic. And agree with me? I bet Avik that the reason why they behave badly is they've made the choice to accept the role they've been given and they're unhappy in that role been given and they're unhappy in that role. Right, so they behave badly because they're unhappy. Happy people don't behave very well. I mean unhappy people tend to behave badly exactly yeah loved it.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I'm not that 12 year old gosh no, that's, that's very true, that's very true it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, at that age, uh, having this word also, it's very, very difficult and very um, I mean, I can understand, like, uh, with this word how to go about.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, that's true you know, and there's a lot of those boys and I'm not going to say any of the names of these very famous characters out there in the world that are known for their advocating for this behavior in men is there's a lot of young boys that don't have the relationship with their parents to go to them and say, hey, I'm hurting about this. So instead they fall into the trap and they're indoctrinated by these dark characters that are actually trying to tell boys to be toxic and take power over others and be cruel. And because you know, they've taken your power away, so they're the enemy, so now I'm going to show you how you take it back. And that is really, really sad and, I think, partially responsible for many of the troubles we have in the world today, from any of the troubles we have in the world today.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, true. And also I have to say, like, as I was also mentioning, about the role of body. So, like, your work with feelness is all about, like, reconnecting with the body in a way that feels natural and inclusive. So, from this, like, do you think that the way we move, or maybe we do not move has anything to do with how we internalize the masculinity I mean?
Speaker 2:if you can share, oh, yes, I love that question. Yeah, absolutely, you know, people today basically are mirroring what they see, and I'm glad you brought this up, because I rejected at a very early age traditional fitness, because the imagery of men doing fitness created their physicality the way they moved, the way they stood. It's always very aggressive and fitness itself tends to be total body transformation. They encourage men, and women too, to strive to look like a Marvel superhero with the giant bulging muscles, and they tend to stand with their arms out. They're not against their side, it's just their arms are curved like they're a Marvel superhero because their muscles are so big. So, yes, absolutely, I think the way we move internalizes how we manifest our masculinity or our femininity. Right, and when I rejected the fitness paradigm, I began to really notice the younger men who were so-called fitness experts in their advertising. I'll give you a good example.
Speaker 2:There was this one guy. He had a video of himself at a workout bench, like lots of weight, and the title of this in a social media post was why I Grind and the grind grind is a term they use in the fitness world. It's like you're really working hard, you're breaking down muscle, building up muscle, burning fat and you're turning your body into this super strong thing. Why I Grind? And he's lifting this massive amount of weight and his little five-year-old son is standing between his knees watching his dad.
Speaker 2:And the message was I do this for my son, right? As if he can't be there for his son unless he was this manifestation of a unbelievably, almost ridiculously powerful physical figure and part of me, avik. I wanted to reach out to the fellow and say privately, you know, because I don't pick fights online. I said don't you think, if you asked your son, what he would really want is for you to get down onto the floor and play with him, right? Don't you think he would want that instead of watching you grind and become this huge physical specimen? But I didn't do it.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. Well, I didn't do it exactly. And and, um, like I mean, have you noticed? I mean this thing I'm saying like have you noticed any patterns, like in how we, as a man, approach the movement differently from women? Um, I mean, and also like if so, then what does uh that say about our cultural conditioning?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, because I don't do strenuous workouts. Um, I don't see it much. Uh, we have a physical fitness facility that's pilates basedbased, so what I see is a lot of gentle, purposeful, intentional, mindful movement. We tend to focus more on our clientele's older, so I like to think older means wiser, and many of them their age. They have no interest in building massive muscles or dropping massive amounts of weight. So I'm not really the guy to answer that question, but I think the ad that I described is a good indicator that the way men move at the gym is very much an inheritance, not a choice of the masculine role that they've been given, especially in the war between the sexes.
Speaker 2:You know, I think the reason why the phrase was coined toxic masculinity is that the men who are unhappy have been taught to blame the women for their unhappiness. You have more power than you should and I'm mad at you, so then they begin to behave badly. Toxic masculinity. But it's all rooted in. I don't love myself and I'm looking for something outside of me to blame, and they blame the women, and now the women have come into power in 1900. Right, okay, empowering sound current. I'm trying to remove a lot of, but I think you're absolutely. It's inheritance and it changes the way they physically move and present themselves in the world. And to get to the onion part that we talked about, if we peel back the layers of the onion of this person that's afraid I'm behaving like a monster man and women are perceiving me as a threat. Therefore they call me a toxic man.
Speaker 2:I peel back the layers of the onion and I go back in time as that man who doesn't know to do it, because he's looking outside of himself for the answer, and I would say hey, you know, listen to what the Buddha says about suffering. We cause much of it needlessly. We cause our own suffering and the way to know that is to look at our own life and go back in time and look at the choices we made and Avik. One of the choices that that sad, angry man made was to accept the role he'd been given by culture. Right and the women accepted their role of being powerless and they want their power back.
Speaker 2:But that sad, angry man that intake ownership, looking at the cause of my suffering, anything will lead to that suffering. Now I see the real reason, the reason. It's not just the cause, and Buddhists have to find the path to peace, because all beings desire happiness. We all wish to find our path to peace, because all beings desire happiness. We all wish to find our purest self, and this toxic male is not his purest self, because early on he made the decision to live the life he was told to live.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Lovely. That's really amazing, I have to say. And I have to say that this is a really great, uh great point. Like we often thought that push through pain or tough doubt, but yeah, exactly exactly what? And no pain, no gain. It's so, and I mean you, you are actually showing that actually listening to the body is where real strength comes from. That's very true, yeah yeah, I'm so grateful.
Speaker 2:I mean the last two years of my life making the shift and doing feelness for myself. I'm the kind of the poster boy, for it is that I get. I get up every day and I marvel at the ease with which I move because my body responded to the same movements I do on a oh you never. Yeah, lifting weights Hmm, doing push-ups Well, they kind of do push-ups, they do move in the arm strength. Lifting weights, doing push-ups Well, they kind of do push-ups, they do moves in the arm strength. I'm doing those moves now, the same moves that I did in my first year of life, and my body's responding at 60, 61, 62,. The same way my body responded at one month, two months, 10 months, 12 months. And it's just like the mind explodes because you realize that we are this amazing physical mechanism that has evolved over millions of years and what worked before in our individual life will work again if we just do it again. And you know what, if you look at what culture tells us to do, it told us to stop doing the things that really make us a capable human, which is moving in, you know, a variety and a frequency of comfortable, natural ways that keeps our body functioning as the amazingly engineered mechanism that it is our body functioning as
Speaker 1:the amazingly engineered mechanism that it is. Yeah, I agree, that's okay. And like, as I mentioned, about your age 60, so you turned 60 and completely redefined how you move and leave. So a lot of men fear about aging because they associate with like, with the decline or the weakness. So how has your experience challenged that narrative? Have you ever thought also, like before you turned 60, have you ever felt like not 60? I mean, uh, have you ever felt same thing after 40s? I mean, like the normal people or most of the men feel like? So what do you say this?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's a good question. Um, I remember precisely the the one time that, very briefly, I fell into kind of the trap of listening to what I should be doing as a man for my body. And I don't know if you remember it, but there was a product called P90X. It's extreme home fitness. It came from the Beachbody Company and I saw all these men doing this P90X and of course, the images were always the same. They were very their abs showed and their biceps were defined and they just they looked like athletes and I thought, okay, well, you know everybody's doing this and there's no other option. So it's a 90 day program. Why don't I give it a try? So I did it and I made it 60 days. I absolutely hated every minute of it. I realized, even though when I look in the mirror I was going to look like that. I knew that I never thought to look that way.
Speaker 2:The thing that I added to my body from the workouts you know the burn that was worse than feeling like I wasn't losing my abilities yet at 40, 42. But the pain of the workouts which, when you look at people who love to work out and I don't judge them if you really love that God bless you. Do it, you know. Do what you love. We should all do what we love, but I do not relate to these guys and even women that you see. Oh yeah, I just, oh, man, I'm so sore I down this path. I can't live the rest of my life feeling like this.
Speaker 2:I didn't figure out what the alternative was going to be for me until 18 years later, when I met Katrina, my partner, and we began to devise this approach called feel-less, which, as you've already learned, the reason why you do it on any given day is because your body tells you to right If you bend over to pet the cat.
Speaker 2:I love my cat and I feel a twinge of pain somewhere, whether it's my knee or my back or whatever. That's my body telling me you need to move, specific, to move from bending, and so I'm grateful for the and. No, I can't press 300 pounds and I never will have to, but I can do all the things that I want to do and love to do and want to do for the rest of my life. That's what I think is important for men and women to understand is super strength or super sexiness, if you will, doesn't really have anything to do with how happy you're going to be as you get older, but what does have to do with how happy you're going to be at any age is how it feels to be.
Speaker 1:You there, Mark.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, did you lose me? Oh no, I still see my audio's working, testing 1, 2, 3. Oh no, I'll keep. I'll keep talking, just off topic, until our connection is made again. I'm waiting to hear Vic's voice to say I hear you, mark, I hear you, hello, hello, hello. Yeah, I can hear you now. Can you hear me now? Yes, yes, it's perfect, stop. I just didn't know to gain our connection now. Can you hear me now? Yes, yes, it's perfect, stop talking. I just didn't hope to gain our connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The last part you were saying, so that's something I just missed.
Speaker 2:Do you remember what I was saying?
Speaker 1:So you were saying about your, you were sharing something. That part I moved.
Speaker 2:I think I was probably at the point where I was sharing that what I do now gives me the capabilities I need, which is comfort and ease, whereas what I was being told to do, not only by the cultural model of masculinity, but P90X, the fitness program I chose. They were telling me to do something that I actually didn't need, but they were convinced that if I achieved it, I'd be happier, and I'm so grateful to have an alternative, because all I care about is every day making sure that my journey in the body that I've been given is comfortable and easeful and that that journey can be epic because I'm not suffering.
Speaker 1:Very true, very true.
Speaker 2:We nothing, exactly we nothing exactly it's, I think, all of us, women alike, but men especially. We need to have them more often in practice, being able to articulate our feelings about masculinity and, as you said in the opening, be honest and open about what doesn't work. Our feelings about masculinity and, as you said in the opening, be honest and open about what doesn't work for us Very true, very true. What doesn't work for us and what might be an alternative. I'll hand it back to you with that Avik.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, so okay, and I believe like it's great to know from you all this. And if someone who is listening right now and realizing, wow, I have been getting a version of masculinity that isn't working for me, so what's the first thing? They should start making a shift.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know any number of exercises, like if I know this masculinity role I was given, like my father's or my grandfather's, I'm going to write what is it that doesn't see it with my own eyes and be sure they're made my partner. If Mary and Cheryl are a partner, we can talk about that. Think it's important, zach, what does your reply? If that makes sense? Okay, understood, anand, do you have any ideas on that? What would you tell your son? If you have a son, what would you tell your son who's saying I don't know about this masculinity thing? What advice would you give him?
Speaker 1:I'll suggest him that. What else it is like? Uh, uh, just uh, see your father and also you experience thing in your life wherever you feel, uh, uh, there is a blockage, there is something that, uh, you are not able to decide what to do. Then let's connect, we'll sit together and I'll help you, but first you experience what exactly is happening with you and what will you do in those situations.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's beautiful. Give your son permission to talk to you at any time, that's beautiful. I didn't have that with my dad. He wasn't interested in talking about anything with anyone. So yeah, so great. Are you actually a dad Avik, Am I? That's me that's the are you actually a dad? Do you have a son?
Speaker 1:so anything you want to share on this?
Speaker 2:oh, I think I lost you for a moment. I didn't, I didn't. I heard only silence Technology's letting us down. My friend, one, two, three. I see my mic is still working. It's got to be the connection.
Speaker 1:You're still there yes, yes, I, I can hear now, yeah, so, so and Jen spur one, two, three amst.
Speaker 2:One, two, three. Yeah, yep, there it is, thank you. Thank you, bye.
