Well Done with Kat Vong

Skin Aging: The Science Behind Skin Longevity with Dr. Lily Shapiro of ATIKA

• Kat Vong • Season 2 • Episode 49

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EP 49. Are you taking collagen, layering on hyaluronic acid, and investing in skincare—but still wondering what actually supports long-term skin health? In this episode, I am joined by Lily Shapiro, PharmD, founder of ATIKA, a science-backed nutritional skin supplement, to talk about skin longevity, beauty supplements, and what it really means to support your skin from the inside out. Dr. Shapiro brings a unique perspective as a pharmacist, former Wall Street professional, and founder of a supplement brand built around the science of skin aging. We get into the truth about collagen supplements, the skin barrier, how oxidative stress impacts aging, and what consumers should look for before trusting any supplement label.

In this episode:

  • The four-pillar framework for understanding what's actually driving your skin to age
  • What most people get wrong about collagen supplements
  • Why calling hyaluronic acid "hydrating" is technically incorrect and what it actually does for your skin
  • The one antioxidant Dr. Shapiro says she'd take if she could only choose one supplement for the rest of her life
  • How sun exposure, pollution, stress, alcohol, and sleep deprivation impact skin 
  • Why supplement dose, form, and third-party testing matter 
  • Red flags to look for when shopping for beauty and wellness supplements

Resources:

Guest Bio

Lily Shapiro, PharmD, is the founder of ATIKA, a supplement brand focused on skin longevity and inside-out beauty. She holds a doctorate in pharmacy and spent years working on Wall Street before creating ATIKA. After entering her 40s and noticing changes in her own skin, Dr. Shapiro began researching the biological drivers of skin aging and developed a comprehensive approach centered on a 4-part framework: collagen integrity, antioxidant balance, lipid barrier support, and mitochondrial function. Today, she is helping consumers think beyond quick fixes and hero ingredients by bringing a more research-driven, systems-based approach to skin health.

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Lily Shapiro

if you're looking at foundational support for your skin and the processes that drive aging, it's a system and so you have to support it as a system

This is well done. A space where we explore the mind skin connection, living in alignment, and what it actually means to live well and look your best. I am your host Kat, a beauty industry insider, mom of twins, and someone who suffered from severe eczema before realizing that true beauty is an inside job. We don't talk about surface level quick fixes here. This is about real insight, practical tools, and learning how to listen to your body. Let's go. hey, Well Beings. Welcome back. Today's conversation is likely going to make you rethink what you know about skin health, especially around supplements, collagen, hydration, and what it actually means to support your skin from the inside out. This is really the foundation of the show and what I believe in, so that's why I'm so excited for today's conversation. My guest today is Lily Shapiro. She is the founder of ATIKA, a supplement brand that's built around the concept of skin longevity. Lily has such an interesting background, she has a doctorate in pharmacy. She spent years working on Wall Street, and then eventually created ATIKA after realizing that so much of the conversation around skin aging is still focused on the surface and surface-level treatments. So you'll wanna listen to the end, because we are really going to get into some eye-opening truths around supplements, skincare, how you can make more informed choices as a consumer, and what it really takes to achieve skin longevity and skin health long term. So let's get into it

Kat Vong

Welcome to the show, Lily. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. So let's start with your story because you do have a very interesting background- Yes. going from being a pharmacist to working on Wall Street. So tell us all about this journey and how eventually it brought you the idea of ATIKA.

Lily Shapiro

Yeah, sure. So I, yeah, maybe I'll bring it all the way back. I was born in the Soviet Union, as you just heard me speak Russian- Yeah. to the, to the people who work here. And I, you know, I came to the United States when I was 10 and,, my family, I come from a family of musicians and so in their minds, you had to have a profession, right? And so I initially actually wanted to go to med school, but they pushed me towards pharmacy. Long story short, I ended up going to pharmacy school, graduating and it was a doctorate degree, so it was quite a few years. And then worked a few years and realized that it it wasn't for me. It wasn't a good personality match. So then decided to pivot, apply to business schools, ended up, going to Wharton, which is a finance heavy school. And so it was very easy to follow the herd from there to Wall Street. And so since 2010, I've been on Wall Street. You know, I did a year of consumer investment banking and then I pivoted to markets. And up until last August, I was helping to manage a hedge fund. It was a machine, learning hedge fund out of Silicon Valley, and sort of, living my life. At the same time, I'm 46 today, so, when I entered my 40s, started seeing the skin changes, and started really thinking about, okay, skin is the largest organ, right, in our bodies. And all the conversations that I'm hearing about skin are cosmetic in nature. We're chasing that wrinkle, we're chasing that sun spot, we're, chasing all the surface- mm-hmm. uh, you know, changes that we see. But the reality is that it's an organ and it's a, it's a tissue, right? And what are the drivers of aging of that tissue, of that organ? Yeah. And so I started thinking about it in that way, and I started digging into the literature to try to understand, okay, in addition to the topicals, could I be taking something that will help to support the function of the skin as I move through the decades? Got it. Right? So we talk about health span as the quality of years you're alive. Here, I'm looking at skin span as the quality of skin, as you move through the decades. And so I started digging into the literature and, you know, I have a PharmD, so I speak the language, so that helped to sort of cut through the noise, and to really drill down, okay, was this study designed well at these reasonable endpoints, and I was able to put together an internal cocktail for myself, it's really a longevity cocktail, but for me, I was mostly focused on skin, so that's what I was optimizing to. And, it was great, but it was 20 pills. In the morning, I would take all these pills out of the bottles, put it into a little bowl, put it next to me on my desk, and hope that as I go through the day, I will take them one at a time because I just absolutely cannot swallow pills. Like, I hate it. Yeah. And it turns out that actually 40% of adults globally have trouble swallowing pills. So I'm not alone then.

Kat Vong

That's high, 40%.

Lily Shapiro

It's very high. Wow. It's very high. But I'm, like, particularly sensitive. Like when I was pregnant, taking prenatals was the hardest part of my day, and so, so I got very frustrated because I see this, mix of pills and I know I should be taking them. I know what they will do for my body, but I just can't do it. So I started opening them up, the capsules and putting them in water. And of course, a lot of them are bitter and it's absolutely vile. So then I'm putting, uh, electrolytes on top to try to mask the taste and, it was, it was, it was a disaster. So I got very frustrated and I thought, okay, why doesn't something like an AG1 but for skin exist, The Nutrafol for skin except in powdered form so that people like me who do not love taking pills or just have pill fatigue, frankly- Yeah. can take it every day. And so I created it and I created it really for myself. It was never supposed to turn into a business, but of course, once you work with a manufacturer, the quantity is, you know- Right. it's at least a few thousand units. So I thought, okay, I will create it. It'll be like my passion project, maybe I open up, you know, maybe I set up a website and I open up a Shopify store and if people wanna buy it, fabulous. And if not, uh, that's fine too. Like I really made this for myself, but when I brought it to life, I realized that there's nothing else on the market like this. Yeah. It's really a very unique, formulation. It really works. You know, I have my own Visia scans of where I was able to reverse some of my wrinkles around the eyes, like real results. My hair's, shedding like really stopped and my hair started growing a lot faster and longer. So I started seeing all these changes. So it works and there's nothing else like it. And so I ended up actually leaving Wall Street, in August and pursuing this as a full-time business. Wow. Yeah.

Kat Vong

Okay. You mentioned there isn't really anything on the market like this, right? So many beauty brands, supplements, brands, they focus on really one thing, the beauty industry really focuses on the key ingredient or the hero. Yes. Why is that thinking or that approach not necessarily the best way to approach skin longevity?

Lily Shapiro

Well, our bodies are extremely complex. There is no reason why pressing one lever is going to cause a massive dramatic systemic effect, right? In some cases, yes, it's possible depending on what the compound is, but if you're looking at foundational support for your skin and the processes that drive aging, then well, it's a system and so you have to support it as a system, And that's really what I did. I zoomed out and I said,"What are the drivers of skin aging and how can I support them as a system, as the really complex system that it is?

Kat Vong

Yeah. And what are the drivers of skin aging? Can we get into that?

Lily Shapiro

Sure. So I developed a framework, the acronym is the word CALM. So C stands for collagen integrity. A stands for antioxidant balance, L stands for lipid barrier, and M stands for mitochondrial function, and I'm happy to go- Yes. into as much depth as- Let's- As you'd like.

Kat Vong

Let's really dig into this because I think the listener is so curious about how this actually works in terms of skin, or the difference between anti-aging products, right, and this, which is really about attacking these different pillars of skin longevity.

Lily Shapiro

Yeah. So we know that we can take collagen, and some people think collagen works, and some people think it doesn't, but at least we know that we can take something internally to affect external change. Mm-hmm. But collagen is one thing, it's one input, and not all collagen is created equal, and we can get into that. Um, it does work, but it has to be a very specific type of collagen. And it has to be taken with cofactors. Again, it's a system. not just one single hero ingredient. so that's the C in my framework is the collagen integrity. That's the scaffolding of your skin, And so how I approached it, I researched collagen, and most people focus on bovine versus marine. That's not the right question. Oh. So there's generic collagen, whether it's bovine or whether it's marine, It's type one. Let's assume it's type one and let's assume it's hydrolyzed even. Hydrolyzed means it's broken down into smaller pieces that your body can absorb. Well, that's fine, and that works as basically protein building blocks for collagen creation. But there's no specific reason that these peptides, these, you know, sequences of amino acids that the collagen is broken down into should go and actually, you know, should go to your skin and help you make more collagen. There's just no reason for that. Oh. How it works, When you have very specific chains of amino acids, so they're dye and tripeptides, so two or three amino acids, but very specific ones in order, they travel through your blood. They have an affinity to your fibroblasts that are the collagen factory- Okay. right, for your body. And they signal to your fibroblasts,"Hey, fibroblasts, we need to make more collagen." But in order for that signaling mechanism to work, they have to be very specific amino acid sequences. And so there is collagen out there that is able to reproduce these amino acid sequences. It's called bioactive collagen peptides. And there is a company out of Germany, Gelida, that makes them specifically for skin. They have different types that they make, they make them for bones, for muscles, for joints, and for skin. And so the Verisol is the brand name, it's a branded collagen. That's the one you wanna take for your skin, because they are optimized. They're very specific sequences of amino acids- that are consistently reproduced.

Kat Vong

Okay. Before you continue, I do have to ask, so does that mean most collagen on the market, that we are all trying and, all the very, popular brands are not really addressing this specific, or not offering this specific peptide, sequence?

Lily Shapiro

Correct. Okay. Correct.

Kat Vong

And so we're just wasting our money then,

Lily Shapiro

Not, not necessarily, because some of it, some of So hydrolyzed collagen, it's hydrolyzed into different sequences of amino acids. Yes. Some of them might be the right ones. But what you're doing, so like if you take some, like the blue tub at Costco that you buy, right, the gigantic tub and where they have you put 20 grams into your coffee, you, what you're doing is you're flooding the system and you're hoping that some of it is the right kind, in my formula, the verisol collagen, it's been studied at only two and a half grams, so a fraction of the 20 gram. And you don't need a lot because it's so targeted and it's so specific. So to answer your question, not necessarily, but if you are taking collagen for your skin or, you know, for your joints or for any specific thing, then shouldn't you wanna take a more targeted collagen? Yeah. Yeah. Right?

Kat Vong

And you don't wanna have to use a full big scoop in your drink if you don't have to, right? You want it to be, you said two and a half grams is all you need if it's the right kind.

Lily Shapiro

Right. And then the way they formulated it, it dissolves really nicely. It doesn't have any aftertaste. Like it's actually a really beautiful product. It's expensive- because it's, well, it's trademarked, but it's worth every penny. Right. And that's why I included a branded collagen in my formulation of, 18 active ingredients- for skin. The other issue is for collagen to work, you need certain cofactors. So for the helix to stabilize, you need vitamin C. I have seen some collagens out there, the generic collagens that include vitamin C, but they encourage people to put it in their coffee. Well, vitamin C is not stable in hot water. And so it degrades. And so you're not getting as much as you probably need. Interesting. Then in my formulation, so that first pillar, the C, the collagen integrity. So I include the bioactive collagen peptides, I include vitamin C, 500 milligrams, which is what has been studied. I include zinc and as, you know, there are different kinds of zinc. I include picolinate because that's the most biavailable form, So I'm a pharmacist, so I think about absorption, right? I think about all these things. And I include selenium that is also necessary for the enzymes to actually help your body make the collagen. I also include bamboo derived silica. It's a building block. So it's still collagen, but it's a very different approach to thinking about collagen. I'm really looking at it as a system, what does my body need- Yeah. to produce collagen? So it's not just putting, you know, 20 grams of my coffee.

Kat Vong

It is so interesting because you did mention the marine versus the bovine. And that's what people are marketing. They're saying this is a marine or this is bovine. And then as a consumer, you're like,"Well, what's better between those two?" Yeah."But that's not the right thing to ask." Yeah.

Lily Shapiro

And they've been successful in convincing people that marine is somehow more premium- Right. and more bioavailable. I would not agree with any of those statements.

Kat Vong

Or the grass-fed versus the not or,

Lily Shapiro

It's interesting you bring in grass-fed because again, as a pharmacist, to me, everything has a pharmacological effect on the body, right? So if you look in my fridge, everything is pastured and, like, I'm just one of those people, so this is a collagen that I'm using from Germany. So that means EU regulations, The cattle is pastured across the European Union where they have very different standards, where they're not spraying their grass with the stuff that we allow here, So it's also, you have to think downstream as well. Mm. It's just a different quality product.

Kat Vong

That's a really good point. I didn't even think about the, even the source of the grass- Yeah.

Lily Shapiro

And then, you know, people talk about marine collagen and if it's wild caught, fish, that's, that's great, although there are no guarantees that just because they say it's wild caught, it is. But a lot of the marine collagen is probably going to be, farm tilapia from some Asian country that you don't know what they're putting in there, right? So you just have to think about those things- Right. because everything has an effect pharmacologically on the body.

Kat Vong

So interesting. Okay. Let's move on to the next three that you mentioned. Okay.

Lily Shapiro

So antioxidant balance. So, we know that antioxidants are good for us, we talk about them, people use vitamin C topically, right, because it helps to reduce the reactive oxygen species, combat oxidative stress, So the reality is that antioxidants are incredible. There's a lot of research, not just for skin, you know, for cognition- Yeah. for cardiovascular health, for your eyes, for I mean, name a body part. And, you can take them internally, you can do them topically. But again, antioxidants, it's just a really broad term, Under that umbrella, you have fat soluble ones, carotenoids, and you have water soluble ones, polyphenols. And within those two kind of categories, you have different antioxidants that just work in very different ways, So they're working on different parts of the cell, whether it's the lipid layer or the aqueous portion, but also they're just mechanistically all very different. And how do you know which one to take,'Cause people talk about glutathione as a master antioxidant, and it's true, unfortunately, you really can't supplement glutathione. Oh, you can't. It doesn't matter if it's injectable or if it's, um, liposomal and they're all very expensive on the market and people take them hoping that they're doing something good for their bodies, but the reality is that you really can't absorb it.

Kat Vong

Really? Yeah.

Lily Shapiro

I actually wrote an article about it. Okay. And I would be happy to share it with you. Maybe you can link it in. Yes, I can link to it. Because it's interesting, right? Because it's such kind of common wisdom that glutathione, glutathione, but the reality is, yes, it's very important, but your body makes endogenous glutathione, and how you wanna do it, how you wanna support it is by supporting the antioxidant system more broadly overall, again, as a system. And so how I approached it, I included 10 different antioxidants in my product, so it's the first m- really true multi-antioxidant on the market. So we take multivitamins, this is a multi-antioxidant, And it's interesting because antioxidants are so good for you, but I mean, how many tons of pomegranates would you have to eat to get, right? To get this clinically studied doses. And so antioxidants are really the compounds that you want to supplement because, because you really can't get enough from your diet, But again, you don't wanna mega dose one because that can actually blunt some signaling in your body. You wanna do it as a system and you wanna do it at the right doses. And so that's what I've done. I combined 10 of them, some are carotenoids, some are polyphenols, they all work through different mechanisms, and each one is included at a dose that has been studied in human research.

Kat Vong

Wow, My, my, brain is spinning because, you know, every morning I make a smoothie and I put in my blueberries, my blackberries, my pomegranate seed-

Lily Shapiro

And that's great. You should. That's, I mean, you're ahead of the curve, right? That's great. And you're getting fiber and you're getting other compounds, but if you really wanna look at some of the specific benefits of antioxidants, the dosing has to be a little higher probably. Or like, for example, astaxanthin, which to me is the most magical antioxidant, is derived from algae. You're just not getting that from your food. Mm-hmm. And we can dig more into that, but

Kat Vong

yeah, we can talk about that after.

Lily Shapiro

So we covered collagen integrity, we covered antioxidant balance. The next one is lipid barrier. This is a really important one because when we talk about hydration, when we talk about hydrating creams, wh- like what are we actually really talking about? What is hydration in skin? Hydration is when the outer layer of your skin, the stratum corneum, is, it's blocks, it's like bricks of dead cells that are held together by ceramides and other fats. Mm-hmm. And that mortar, the ceramides, the, the cholesterol and the lipids, if it's intact, you have an intact lipid barrier, your body is able to hold onto water, and that's how you get hydrated skin. It's the ability of your body to hold onto water. When your lipid barrier is intact, you're also keeping out irritants. Those irritants are, potentially can set off inflammatory cascades. So you're protecting your proteins, your lipids, your collagen from that whole system, So it's really important to have an intact lipid barrier. And how do you do it? Well, your lipid barrier is 50% ceramides, 25% cholesterol and 25% other fatty acids, more or less. Yeah. If there was a way to replenish those ceramides, you're basically replenishing the lipid barrier and healing it. And so you can do that in two ways. You can do it topically where when you put ceramides topically, it actually embeds into, the fat embeds into the lipid barrier, and it works as long as you keep the cream on the face. So you have to do it every day, or you can do it orally. And internally, and again, it's a signaling mechanism. So, you know, you take ceramides orally, it doesn't mean it just magically goes there, but there is a mechanism that is signaling, and it helps to replenish your natural ceramides. And so you're basically healing your lipid barrier from within. And there is, again, there's trademarked ceramides and there's generic. I'm using trademark ceramides from France because that's where the quality consistency is. They have done human clinical trials and have shown really incredible results. And this is the kicker, not just for skin, but also for hair at the same dose that I'm using. And so people are seeing, and this is anecdotal, I'm not making promises, right? But the feedback that I'm getting from customers is that within two to maximum three weeks, they're seeing much improved hydration, and that's because they're healing the lipid barrier.

Kat Vong

with ceramides, I had never really thought to ingest them. You know, especially When you see a lot of the collagen products on the market, sometimes you see the hyaluronic acid. Mm-hmm. Or also in the beauty world- Yeah. we're told about the ceramides, but we're also told about HA a lot as well. Mm-hmm. And I know you have an opinion on that. I do. But, But yeah, Let's talk about hyaluronic acid because I feel like that is such a, you know, it's trending- People love it. everywhere,

Lily Shapiro

so hyaluronic acid can be great. So again, there's topical and there's internal oral. Let's start with oral. It's a very large molecule and you need a lot of it. It doesn't absorb well. Mm. There is one company in Japan that, does a very low molecular weight one that you can absorb, but you need a lot of it. You need 120 milligrams, so again, it's either a big pill or two actually big pills, or if you're including it in, like, a powder, format, well, already my, you know, I have 18 ingredients and it's a 10.3 gram scoop. It's like the size of AG1. Hmm. So it's, it's just a lot of powder. Adding another 120 milligrams of it, it's just a lot. But that's not even the main issue. The main issue is that hyaluronic acid is a humectant. What does that mean? It means it pulls in water from deeper layers and let's do sort of like an illustration. It like swells up the cells, right? Makes them a little more hydrated, but it's temporary. It's temporary. So the, the analogy I like to give is that if you imagine a brick wall, right? So the stratum corneum, the outermost layer of your skin where your lipid barrier is, that's the stratum corneum. So it's, it's bricks- Yeah. and mortar. So hyaluronic acid is like throwing water on the wall. Yes, it's going to be wet, hydrated, but then it dries up. But if you fix the mortar, if you seal in the cracks, well, that's actual hydration. So oral hyaluronic acid, problematic, uh, especially the generic ones, because it's just too big of a molecule, you need a lot of it. And by the way, it doesn't hydrate. It's a humectant. It's very temporary. It doesn't affect the structure. Topical hyaluronic acid, same mechanism, right? Humectant pulls in water from deeper layers of your skin can make you look more plump. Today I should have used it where I'm on camera, right? I didn't, but I could have. Um, and that's great. For like special occasions, I mean, you can use it every day too, but just remember, you're not affecting the structure, the underlying structure. It's a bandaid. And it's fine. There is a place for it, but just as long as we understand that people talk about hyaluronic acid as hydrating, it's not hydrating because it's, temporary.

Kat Vong

Yeah, That's fascinating. I didn't realize it was so temporary. Yeah. But is that also why in the beauty world they recommend you layer on something else to keep it in your skin? I come from the beauty world and there's a lot of you lock in the hydration with an occlusive, like a balm or an oil.

Lily Shapiro

I mean, just given the mechanism of it, yeah, you can do an occlusive and that will help to keep the moisture in, right? The transepidermal water loss is the term that's used in dermatology. So you're occluding it, but that's what you're doing by fixing your lipid barrier, you're occluding from the inside.

Kat Vong

Got it. Yeah. Yeah. You know? You actually affecting the structure, as you mentioned- Yeah. versus it being a bandaid solution. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Lily Shapiro

So hyaluronic acid is great. There's a place for it. I would go with topical versus, oral, but just so you know, you're not, addressing the root source of the issue.

Kat Vong

Okay. So we talked about collagen, antioxidants, and then there's, well, as part of that was hyaluronic acid is part of the collagen and ceramides- And lipid barrier. Lipid barrier. Yeah. What was the fourth?

Lily Shapiro

Hold on, before we get to the fourth- I just wanna say a few words about the hair benefits because that has been the most shocking thing for me. So I formulated this product for skin. I'm on camera, so some viewers will be able to see it, but I have naturally very good hair, right? I have a lot of hair, it's very thick, I'm very fortunate. So I never thought about really hair, It's not on my mind, but the feedback that is coming from the customers that have been using it for a few months now is that it's making their hair shed less, it's making their hair grow longer, it's making their hair grow thicker. Wow. I had someone tell me it's making her eyelashes grow. I haven't experienced that on myself. I usually Latisse personally, but, this is a woman in her 60s. She also told me that somebody asked her if she got hair extensions. This is a 62-year-old woman. It's one data point. Yes. But a lot of people have emailed me and said,"Lily, you know what? That my hair is just, it's not shedding as much." Yeah. And that is that same ingredient, the ceramides from France.

Kat Vong

Do you think you'll do any clinical tests to actually study whether that is happening with the hair?

Lily Shapiro

Well, they have. The company has. Okay. And so they have really nice clinical data on it that I sort of didn't even pay attention to when I was formulating. I was really focused on their clinical data for lipid barrier, but just to see people give me that feedback, It's incredible. That's exciting. I know. It's really, it's really exciting. Okay. So the fourth pillar is mitochondrial function. And that's a really important one because when we think about skin, we don't maybe necessarily think about cellular function, but the reality is for anything to happen in our body, cells need energy, And it's very trendy now to inject NAD+. Yeah. And I have, I have views on that as well. Uh- Because a lot of, a lot of things are trendy and they're great, right, on social media, but they may not have the science behind it. there is a place for injectable NAD, but most people don't need to do it. Most people don't, they can take the oral precursors, right? So there is NR. Mm-hmm. There is NMN and there is niacinamide or nicotinamide. It's the same thing, different, names for the same compound. And so what I'm using in my formulation is niacinamide. I'm using it at 500 milligrams because you get the double benefit. It is a precursor to NAD+. So once the ni- nicinamide gets into your cell, it does convert into NAD+. Okay. So you're getting the NAD+, but it, niacinamide also has decades worth of research and clinical data for skin health, for elasticity, there's actually some, data around prevention of melanoma, that's at 1,000 milligrams a day. Uh, that's not my game. I'm not focused on that. I'm using 500 milligrams. But it just has a lot of different skin benefits and you're getting the NAD+ benefit as well. And for most people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, maybe even 60s, it's just more than enough. Okay,.

Kat Vong

Can you explain to the listener who might not be familiar with what exactly Exactly is NAD+ for the body and why, you know, having something else like the niancinamide, it functions the same or what is the importance, of the mitochondrial function as it pertains to skin longevity?

Lily Shapiro

So mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, so that's what gives your body the energy to do anything, so if you want collagen to form, that requires energy, if you want any sort of remodeling, any sort of changes, it all requires energy. So it's important to support that. And again, zooming out, how is everything related as a system? And so it may be counterintuitive to say, why are you supporting your mitochondria when you wanna see, you know, fewer wrinkles? But it's all interconnected.

Kat Vong

I have to also remind the listener that we're talking about skin longevity, not anti-aging. Like they're two different things, yours is really supporting the system and not necessarily bandaid solutions you're taking it from the inside out.

Lily Shapiro

Yes. Well, let's dig into the word anti-aging. What does it actually mean?

Kat Vong

I don't know. I don't know either. That we age backwards? Yeah. That we should reduce aging?

Lily Shapiro

So I'm 46, I'm supposed to look 26. It's not gonna happen. Right? We can put a label on it, but it's not gonna happen. A much more realistic question is, how do I keep the function that I have as I move, through my life and how do I keep my skin as healthy as possible as I age? That's realistic. And it's attainable. Looking 26 when you're 46, there are all these anti-aging creams on the market. Have you ever seen a 46-year-old that looks 26? Right, exactly. I mean, I'm from, from the cream? Just from the topical. Right. I mean, it's an interesting term. Yeah, we've taken to it as a society, but what does it actually mean? It's a privilege. Yeah. It's a privilege to age, right? But you wanna do it in a way where you maintain function and you maintain energy and you maintain, that elasticity, that plumpness, in your skin.

Kat Vong

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's say you're a woman in your 40s and you're noticing changes in your skin. After taking a product like yours or really thinking about the system, what should they expect?'Cause I know that one of the things that you've mentioned is people have this kind of very wayward view of how quickly things should happen. And that's why they go for the quick solutions, right? We want it fast. Yes. We want it quick. What is realistic when you're taking this more holistic systemic approach?

Lily Shapiro

So the product that I formulated, it's 18 active ingredients, And it's for skin longevity. And skin longevity is, is a broad term, right? And we're talking about different pillars. And so it depends on, on which pillar you're talking about. So for example, People have seen more hydrated skin- within two to three weeks, because that's just how the ceramides work. That's how long it takes to repair the lipid barrier. And so you just feel more hydrated, you look healthier, you look plumper, you look glowier, let's use that term, So that's two to three weeks. Well, with wrinkles, for me, it took me 12 weeks to reverse some of these wrinkles around my eyes. Two weeks and 12 weeks are very different timelines, but they're also very different endpoints, Then there is hyperpigmentation sunspots. The ingredients that I have in my formulation there's several that have been shown in clinical trials to lighten sun spots and to prevent them, but that takes months. So there, there's no magic, right? But even with collagen, people take it, they sort of expect that it will take a few weeks to work, and so the same with this. So it depends on which endpoint you're talking about.

Kat Vong

Got it. On the subject of the magic pill, I know we're jumping a little bit, but I would love to know from your opinion, do those pills that say that they prevent sun damage or they help with sun damage, photo damage, do those actually have any merit or what is your thoughts on that?

Lily Shapiro

100%. So there is a fern called Polypodium leucotomos. I have it in my formulation. I have it at 480 milligrams. It's been studied, 240 to 480. I included the higher dose because there's decades worth of literature that shows that it increases the amount of time you can be under the sun longer before you get redness, before you get that DNA damage, before you get the photo aging. So there is very compelling data for it, and I include it in my I sort of bucket it in the antioxidant column. It's not a true antioxidant, it's a fern, but there's very compelling data. And actually yesterday I went to a dermatology group and I was, showing my product to like five, five dermatologists. And they were so excited about the product because they said, number one, you're including polypodium at the study dose, at the higher, dose. But number two, you've got all these other things in here and it's so easy for people. Yeah. So they placed a huge wholesale order on the spot and their office manager, emailed me this morning that they already sold a bunch of jars. Okay. They were super excited about it because again, there's nothing else on the market like it that is just so all in one comprehensive, Yeah. At all the right doses. This is one thing we didn't talk about, is that a lot of products out there, they pad the label, right? They pixie dust. They say," Oh, we have, this many ingredients in our formulation."But then if you start looking at the label, number one, it's either a proprietary blend, which to me it's like, okay, I don't know what's in it and I don't know at what doses and I understand you have to protect your intellectual property, but if I don't know what's actually in it, I'm not taking it, sorry, and that's why I've been super transparent about all the ingredients and all the doses, even though, you know, my advisors have told me,"Well, you don't wanna do that because people are gonna copy you. And I said,"Well, that's too bad because, to me it's really important to show exactly what's in it at what dose, And it has to be the clinically studied dose. Otherwise So the analogy, I often give is if you run a marathon and at the end of it, you're thirsty, you're parched, will drinking one sip of water be enough? Mm. No. You need a glass, you need a bottle, It's the same with supplements. If the company's pixie dusting an ingredient, is it gonna do anything? No, it has to be the right dose. It has to be enough water, right? It has to be enough of that ingredient.

Kat Vong

Right, right. And the thing is, is that to your point about how you even started this is that you end up taking a bowl full of supplements because you don't actually know. And that was me. I actually don't take a ton now because I'm like, I don't know if these are doing anything- Yeah. but I used to have a cabinet just full of everything- Yeah. under the sun. Yeah., I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk a bit about, skin aging, because I know we kind of skipped to all of the ingredients, which is great, but I wanna talk a bit about oxidative stress and how that actually impacts the skin. And I know you also separate between oxidative stress and chronic inflammation. Can we talk about the difference between those two things and how does that affect how we look, our skin and skin longevity?

Lily Shapiro

Sure. Love your questions. Okay. So we live and breathe. Normal metabolic processes create reactive oxygen species. UV light creates reactive oxygen species. We're under LED lights right now. I'm in front of my computer all day long. The cumulative exposure creates reactive oxygen species. Pollution creates reactive oxygen species. How your body clears it is through the antioxidant network, And if it can't keep up with the amount of ROS, ROS ROS that you, generate due to your environmental exposures, then you start getting oxidative stress and oxidative stress leads to inflammation. So if you take antioxidants and you sort of prevent oxidative stress, right, or you help your body sort of keep your body in balance, you're actually preventing inflammatory processes. So as a society, we talk a lot about anti-inflammatory, calming inflammation. Well, what about preventing inflammation in the first place? Isn't that a much smarter strategy? Yeah. Right? So what oxidative stress does is it basically, it just degrades your proteins, your lipids, your collagen, It just damages it. And so as a result, you get loss of elasticity, you get, you know, hyperpigmentation, you get wrinkles, you get like all those cosmetic things- Yeah. but that's really the, the underlying process driving it.

Kat Vong

And I mean, as humans, we can't really, avoid that kind of stress, right? Because day to day, we're, you, like you mentioned, we're working on the computer, we're walking around outside- Yeah. we're everything is basically attacking our bodies and so we can't avoid this stress and then that would lead to inflammation. So you're, you're saying start from the beginning- Yeah. and get, and do it proactively. Yeah.

Lily Shapiro

But even things that are good for us, exercise, it, it increases reactive oxygen species temporarily. Then your body adapts and actually the antioxidant, network kicks in. So in the long term, it's actually better. You upregulate that system. But in the short term, it creates reactive oxygen species. Or sleep deprivation, right? Yeah. Spikes in cortisol, psychological stress, all of it. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And again, it's just all interrelated. It's all a big system.

Kat Vong

Let's say somebody has really treated their skin poorly over the years that, maybe they drank a lot when they were younger or they- Oh, I forgot about alcohol, right? I was gonna say alcohol and then also maybe they worship the sun, you know, I'm guilty of using a tanning bed when I was like 17. Different times. Different times. I grew up also in a very cold climate, so I needed it, but how does that then impact long-term or can we reverse some of those things? Like how resilient is our skin?

Lily Shapiro

Look, it's resilient, but there are no miracles, But it is resilient and you can It's never too late to start supporting the, drivers of aging, you mentioned a lot of things. The one thing we can mention is a lot of people are taking GLP-1s, Mm. And so that leads to fat tissue loss. Well, you can't replace it, I mean, unless you start eating, right, again, or- Yeah. but you can support, you can support the structure, you can support the, the antioxidant system, right? You can support the lipid barrier and all of that helps.

Kat Vong

Yeah. To firm it up so that if you do lose a lot of weight, it doesn't look like it's like drooping.

Lily Shapiro

Right. Well, I mean, it's not gonna be magic. Right. Right? If you lose a lot of fat, you're gonna get the drooping and then that's where other procedures might be, more appropriate. But if you are supporting all those, you know, the Calm framework, yeah. The Calm system, then, you know, you're only doing yourself a service. And I wish there was a magic bullet, but oh,

Kat Vong

one thing we forgot to go back to was that supplement you mentioned, astaxanthin. Yes. What is so great about this specific?

Lily Shapiro

So it's derived from algae and it's a very, very strong antioxidant. And there's a lot of clinical data for, yes, for skin, so like photo protection. So in Let me, let me go back for a second. Okay. So in addition to polypodium leucotomos, you also have certain things like carotenoids that do help with photo protection, and astaxanthin is actually one of them, and I do include it in my formulation, partly for that reason. it helps with photo protection, it helps with, you know, skin elasticity, it helps with the lipid barrier a little bit, but it also helps with your eyes, it helps with cognition, it helps with cardiovascular health. So it's kind of like a magical ingredient, and what makes it so interesting, so it's derived from algae, and there are different types. There's natural, and then there's synthetic that they make in the lab. The synthetic you don't want to take because it's just not as many benefits as the natural one. So you want the natural one, but again, you want it to be pure and grown a certain way, right? And so in my, product, Advanced Skin Nutrition, I have four branded products. That's actually one of the branded ones because it was really important to me that it was the highest quality, because it's just such an incredible nutrient. And so what it does is, it embeds into the lipid, into the lipid layer of the cell, but it's long enough that it interacts So it's, it's lipophilic, but also hydrophilic, which is very unique because usually compounds are either fat soluble or water soluble. This one is sort of both. That's why it's able to have so many amazing benefits in your bodies because it's working in different parts of the cell. Yeah. That's fascinating. It's gaining some traction. Like I definitely hear people talk more and more about it. Some people are talking about it in the context of dermatology, others are talking about it in the context of brain health or, you know, heart health. Okay. But it, it's really an incredible ingredient. And if you were to ask me if you could take only one supplement and nothing else, what would you take? Astaxanthin would be a top three pick. Wow. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's that incredible.

Kat Vong

And so what have you noticed with your own skin since you started taking your own concoction to building ATIKA? What have you noticed?

Lily Shapiro

So I'll tell you what the dermatologist yesterday said. Yeah. The head of that group was gushing, she said,"Your skin looks so hydrated and healthy." And I said,"Thank you. Um, but definitely a lot more hydrated, just a lot plumper. And, you know, we can talk about my topical routine. It's the most pitiful thing ever. It's really just all internal support for me. But also, I think I mentioned, I was able to reverse some of these wrinkles, So I scanned my face with Visia Scan when I was 43, and I have that scan. Then at age 45, I rescanned, but after having taking advanced skin nutrition for 12 weeks every day, and there was a nine point improvement in the wrinkles. And I've never done a laser in my life, I've done Botox exactly three times, never under eyes, so it wasn't- And how- Any of that.

Kat Vong

And how uncommon is that to really get that nine point difference? Did the dermatologist have any-

Lily Shapiro

So I haven't done a clinical trial yet. I will. So we'll see. We'll have a bigger sample size. You know, I'm N of one, but it's meaningful. It's a really dramatic, if you look, and I have it on the website, you could see the scan the before and after, and you see the green lines, each one is a wrinkle. You see that I'm two years older, but I have fewer lines, And this is just with my product, Yeah. No lasers, no injections, nothing. Barely any topicals. Yeah, yeah. And also, we talk so much about the face, but I'm sure you've seen improvements like all over the body. Yes. I did a downward dog once and I saw my, the tops of my knees and I gasped in class. Oh my gosh. Right? Because you, you see the changes. Yeah. But also like eyelids, right? It's just structurally, it's just a lot thinner. So you'll see changes there at the top of your mouth- Yeah. because of all the movement, You see changes, your neck, your hands, your chest, yes, those, those we sort of talk about, but like this here, the top of the mouth, that's a really sensitive area that gets a lot of movement. And again, to your point, skin is all over your body. So what I'm doing by taking my product and drinking it, I'm supporting the skin all over my body, not just my face.

Kat Vong

So for somebody who is overwhelmed and they are thinking about, okay, I have my, five step skin routine, I am maybe getting, a laser treatment every now and then or something, you know, like a treatment- mm-hmm. whether that's an injectable or not. Mm-hmm. And then there's also this side, which is the ingested. If you were to choose which one, and I think I know the answer, like if they don't really have it in their budget to invest in all areas, what would you say is the most important? Where should they start?

Lily Shapiro

So I'm not a fan of the five, 10 step routines. To me, it's just, it's counterintuitive. Number one, you don't know how all of these things interact. Number two, like for example, vitamin C, it needs a certain pH, other things need a much more basic environment. So when you're layering all that stuff on, you could be negating it. People are just sort of- putting stuff on their face without thinking about, what's actually happening? So I'm just not a fan. And, I'm talking my book because my routine is like pitifully simple. But if you had to choose, well, I don't think you need to choose. I think you need both. I really do. You do need a topical, you need a good moisturizer, but you don't need 10 of them. You just don't. You don't need the hyaluronic acid if your lipid barrier is intact and healthy and you're glowing, you just don't need it. So I think you need both. You need internal support because again, it's an organ. Of course you wanna nourish it on the cellular level. The topicals are great, but they sit on top of your skin, And they're great, they're good, there's a place for them, but you just need both.

Kat Vong

It's such a good point that you don't know how they're interacting with each other there was a trend on social that was all around skin flooding and it becomes a soupy mess on your skin and what if these things are all actually negating each other? Yeah. And you don't even really know. Now you've just got a mess on your face.

Lily Shapiro

So like women in their 40s are starting to use estrogen cream on their face, which I think is great, but a lot of us are also using retinol. But well, when you combine the two, you're sort of negating them. So you're paying for two products, but you're getting half the benefit basically so you have to split that. You wanna do the estrogen cream in the morning and the retinols at night. And that's just one example. I mean, I've seen on social media literally 10 different jars, 10 different products, you're just layering them on. I don't know. I'm not into that.

Kat Vong

was there anything that you discovered about going into the supplements category that was surprising to you?

Lily Shapiro

The marketing around it and what's allowed and what's not allowed surprised me, how you really can't say anything, And I understand it's to protect the consumer, but then people find loopholes, And people still, I mean, there's just so much noise and misinformation out there, but then the good companies are not able to communicate. In a kind of like an open way. And look, I have a PharmD. I speak the language and even I found it extremely frustrating and overwhelming to sift through the noise, Because there's just so much out there.

Kat Vong

Are there any, quick rules of thumb if you were a consumer shopping for something like a supplement, what is a red flag immediately? I

Lily Shapiro

think to me, proprietary blends are a red flag. The format matters as well. Like I really looked at making gummies, but gummies are so complicated to make and it's so hard to make them the right way. Each gummy can only carry about 10% of the active, And so sometimes you'll see like, creatine gummies and maybe they found a way to do it. But in order to make the gummy, creatine you have to dissolve it. But once you dissolve creatine, the shelf life is very, very short because it turns into creatinine that doesn't give you the effect, and so like there are all these things where you have to keep in mind, so the format matters. The most important one to me is dosing, but also contamination. So I do have my product third party tested and I do provide the certificate of analysis so people can see, well, I claim I have 500 milligrams of vitamin C, how much is actually in there? And so I provide the report that says,"Well, it's actually 500 milligrams, right?" And it's never gonna be exactly 500, In my case, actually in my product it's 550. And, and I'm very transparent about it. You wanna ask for certificate of analysis COAs and if the company does not provide it, well, that's a signal as well, But before I personally take any supplement, I look, there are third party testing. Now we have apps, but there's a company that's been around for the past, like, at least 25 years that I've been using it. It's called consumerlab.com. Okay. Consumerlab.com. It's behind a paywall, but it's something nominal, like 60 or$70 a year, and to me it's well worth it because they third party test, they look at how much of each ingredient is in there versus how much you claim is on the label, but they also test for contaminants like lead, cadmium, arsenic. And you don't realize it, but a lot of things like, I don't know if you saw, they tested a bunch of protein powders and they found that a lot of them are contaminated with lead. I mean, do you wanna- No. put that in your body? No. They also were the ones that uncovered that AG1 had lead levels that were higher than is, you know- Oh wow. acceptable. Yeah. So you really have to be careful. You have to make sure that what the label says is, is actually what's in the capsule. And that's where you get into issues with some of the imported supplements, right? So I make my product in the United States. It's very different manufacturing practices, so what's on the label is what's in the bottle, the dosing that's been clinically, substantiated, and then contamination. Oh my gosh, that's so eye opening. I'm a mom also, and I have been looking at all of this stuff for my girls, so there's like a lot of kids' foods that I will not go near because I saw some consumer reports, but-

Kat Vong

But as we wrap up, what's next for Atika? That's how you pronounce it., You know, I say Atika, but again, my first language is not English, so to me that's really easy, but I found that the Anglophones, it's hard for them, so I'm happy with Atika as well. Some people say Atika, some people say Atika, it depends on your, I think, heritage. But either works. And by the way, the name, the name is interesting because it has roots in Sanskrit, Hebrew and Arabic and it means like ancient timeless- and beautiful. So it's quite a nice name. Yeah. What's next? Well, you know, just getting the word out there, getting the word out there and getting more people to try it, because the people that try it, they do come back and, they're taking it, Our return rate is really high- because people try it and they really like it. And it tastes great. It was important for me that it tastes great so that I would wanna take it every day. And so it is sugar free, but that was another huge project, like what sweetener do I use, Because a lot of these ingredients, they're bitter. And so you have to mask the bitterness, but then you wanna add a little bit of flavor, So the, flavor of the drink that I formulated, it's a citrusy flavor and you don't get that fake Stevia after taste because I'm using a combination of monk fruit and a Reb M. It's again, a trademarked ingredient, very expensive, but the reason why I'm using it is because it has a really clean, beautiful profile. And people who don't tolerate Stevia actually tolerate this even though it's part of the Stevia plant, but it's the highest quality part of the plant. How can people learn more about the brand and yourself? Yeah. We're D2C right now. We're in a few medical spas and country clubs, but mostly D2C. The website is atikawellness.com, so A- T-I-K-A wellness.com. We are on Instagram and I,, the Instagram is interesting. I put out a lot of very educational content and some people have told me it's a little dry. Okay. But for me, it's important that it's educational. It's not just entertainment. And the visuals are pretty, but the content really is there. And the handle for Instagram is atika.wellness. So A- T-I-K.wellness. Got it. Um, I also have a YouTube channel where I, put founder videos. I also have, a blog where I write almost an article a week. And so if you want to read about asthaxanthin, it's on there. Glutathione, I have an article on that. Ceramides versus hyaluronic acid. I have an article on that. Thank you for enlightening me on all of these things and keep everything educational because I think we need to know this stuff, I don't wanna look at pretty pictures. I want the substance, so- Yeah. that's amazing.

I feel like this episode gave us such a useful reframe around skin aging, supplements, and what it really means to actually support our skin over time and from the inside out. So many of us are trained to really think about skin in a very reactive way. We, you know, we see a wrinkle, then we reach for, a new product. We look for more creams, more serums. And that's not even to say, you have a skin issue or a skin condition like I did, you start reaching for more and more products without really thinking about,"What else can I do from the inside?" With that being said, here are some takeaways from today's conversation. Number one, what Lily helped explain to us is because skin is an organ, it's really affected by what's happening internally. There's oxidative stress, there's inflammation, the complex system around barrier function and collagen production and mitochondrial health which all affect the body, and therefore the skin's ability to repair and maintain itself over time. We have to stop thinking about skin aging as a surface level problem that can be tackled by a hero ingredient. the Body doesn't really work that way, right? The skin doesn't repair itself in isolation, and skin aging does not happen in isolation. It's a system. Number two, skin hydration is not just about adding water, but it's about keeping the water in and also the structural integrity of your skin barrier. Hyaluronic acid, has been so trendy in the beauty world. And Lily explained, yes, there's a place for HA. Humectants are useful in skincare. But she made a really important distinction around how humectants pull in water, but that is a very temporary effect. And what we're trying to achieve with skin longevity and skin health is how to get the skin barrier to hold onto that water in the first place, and that's really through the lipid barrier. It's where ceramides come into play. And then finally, with supplements the dose and the form matter just as much as the ingredient. We take a lot of things at face value, but Lily explained that just because an ingredient is listed does not necessarily mean it's in a meaningful amount to do anything for you. It also doesn't mean that it's in the right form or that it's bi-bioavailable. Third-party testing is really important because you wanna know that what's on the label is actually in the product, and that there aren't other contaminants in what you're consuming. So it's just something to think about when we are shopping for our supplements, I think this is just true for everything. We have to be more skeptical and informed consumers of supplements and of skincare. And I hope this conversation left you thinking a little differently about skin longevity and skin health. And not as a way to necessarily stop aging because we can't do that, but to support the skin as it ages in a way that enables it to function as well as possible as you move into different seasons of your life. And if this episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend who might be interested, thank you so much for listening to Well Done, and I will see you in the next episode.