Wait… Non-Alcoholic Wine That’s Actually Good? How Amanda Thomson Built Noughty Wines in a Sea of Skeptics

Amanda Thomson from Noughty Wines is rewriting the rules of wine, how we celebrate and socialize… without alcohol.

In this episode, Noughty Wines founder Amanda Thomson joins Nosedive to share how she went from champagne expert to one of the leading voices in the non-alcoholic wine movement. She breaks down what it really takes to build a brand in a category people doubted and why the alcohol-free shift is bigger than anyone expected.

We dive into the rise of non-alcoholic wine, how Amanda built Noughty into a globally recognized brand, and the realities of navigating skepticism as a founder in a legacy/male-dominated industry. She opens up about resilience, the mental hardships of entrepreneurship, and why building the right network can make or break your journey.

Because the future of drinking culture isn’t about what you’re giving up it’s about gaining a community of people who just want better options.

In This Episode, You'll Discover:
🧡 Amanda’s journey from champagne to non-alcoholic wine
🧡 Why non-alcoholic wine is gaining momentum
🧡 The behind the scenes of building a beverage brand from scratch
🧡 How to handle doubt, criticism, and industry skepticism
🧡 The role of resilience and mental health in entrepreneurship
🧡 What makes a good non-alcoholic wine vs. a bad one
🧡 The power of networking and building the right support system
🧡 How Amanda is shaping the future of alcohol-free drinking

🔗 MENTIONED:
✨Noughty Wines: www.noughtyaf.com
✨NoughtAFs IG: www.instagram.com/noughtyaf
✨10% off code for 1 full case (6 bottles): NOSEDIVEMIXED

Love what you’re hearing? Help keep the convo going - like, subscribe, comment - we appreciate you more than you know - catch you next time!

Where to Find Us:
✨Mara's IG: www.instagram.com/marademauro
✨Renee's IG: www.instagram.com/heyreneeadams
✨Nosedive IG: www.instagram.com/nosediveco
✨Nosedive TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@nosediveco

Email us: info@nosedive-co.com

✨10% off code for 1 full case (6 bottles): NOSEDIVEMIXED

Transcript

Renee (00:01.31)
Okay, so Amanda, we were just talking a little bit about kind of like where I'm located, where we're located. I'm in Savannah, Georgia. Mara just recently moved to the Keys. Where are you calling from?

Well, technically I'm London based, but I spend so much time in America. I'm back and forth over travel. I'm there every month or so. And actually someone in the US is like, why don't you move here? And I said, well, there's no need to actually, because of course, if you think about the way your country works, right? I mean, for me to get from London to New York is almost the same as crossing America, California to New York. You know what I mean? It's so vast country.

Yeah.

Renee (00:21.901)
Okay.

Renee (00:37.453)
Mm, right.

And of course I have to come and work in different states. So it's been a really great learning curve. I'm getting to know some of your great cities, which is hugely exciting. And actually getting to spend more time in Atlanta, because we've just done a nice distribution deal in Georgia. that, yeah, looking forward to that.

Yeah, that's incredible. I'm so excited for that. mean, selfishly, of course. But also, I actually used to do a lot of travel to the UK for my previous job working for Gulfstream. I used to travel there maybe like once a month to Cheltenham.

He

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (01:16.344)
Okay, nice. Very famous in the UK for having a race course, horse racing.

Yeah.

Renee (01:21.718)
That's right. Yep. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. but to go back to the distribution and just like back to you really, why did you choose non-alcoholic wine as kind of the, you know, the entry into non-alcoholic space?

Yeah. Well, champagne was my North star, so I was a fine wine nerd. So that was my entry point. And actually I studied fine wine. I left my broadcast career, trained in wine in Paris, and I launched a champagne first actually. And it was just that realization that as a non-heavy drinker, even at wine events, say I was at a few wine events across the week,

Me too.

Yeah.

Hahaha

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (02:09.869)
I wasn't really inclined to drink every night, even in small doses. Now, everybody's is entirely different, right? So this is just mine. I didn't have an alcohol problem. I recognized that alcohol wasn't healthy. And I think it doesn't take a scientist even back through history to understand that alcohol wasn't healthy. Now, obviously in 2026, that's a much more prevalent conversation.

Right.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (02:36.065)
But I'd grown up with a mother who was kind of a health foodie before that was fashionable, like really early days, very into plant-based food and just being aware of not having processed food. So she was kind of ahead of her own time. And so that drive actually to really understand what the opportunity was in alcohol-free wine wasn't so much driven out of a health issue. It was more driven just out of a literal problem of realizing

Sure.

Renee (03:04.046)
Hmph.

I was changing so much water. So my default drink after I'd had one glass of wine or when I didn't want wine was sparkling water. And then the penny dropped so heavily when I was like, well, why has no one made a good non-alcoholic wine for wine drinkers? And for those of you who know the history of non-alcoholic wine, there are many legacy brands and I'm not ever about to be negative about any brand. I only ever speak about Noughty, but they weren't targeted.

Hmm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (03:32.577)
to wine lovers and that was the difference. So I became obsessed in quite a Willy Wonka Charlie and the Chocolate Factory type of way with seeing if it was possible to make good non-alcoholic wine, which technically was not a marriage of words that even made sense, good and non-alcoholic wine at that point. And actually I had to rip up the rule book in terms of my obsession with a particular grape.

No.

Renee (03:40.64)
You

Renee (03:53.111)
Mm-hmm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (03:59.285)
or a particular maker. I used to see great winemakers as artists and terroir as they say in the wine business, which is basically the aspect of where the vines are planted and how the sun hits them. And all of my kind of wine geek stuff, it was very relevant in terms of the infrastructure and my understanding of what I wanted on the palette for non-wine people palette is really essentially the taste, how it hits you. And then I was like, what?

Okay, I've got to really start from scratch here and be much more open-minded as to how I come about creating this. And that was really how Nausea came about. It was that sort of desire for great sort of wine that didn't have alcohol, which was this strange conundrum. And also it frankly pissed me off that alcohol...

Man.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (04:53.351)
and celebration was so intertwined. And I was like, well, that doesn't make sense because technically alcohol is not good for us. Why should alcohol have to be a component? So there were so many touch points for everybody who has any degree of complication of relationship with alcohol. It was just interesting that mine came from a wine geek place, which if I'm really honest with you both, I think is pertinent to my success.

hehe

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (05:21.165)
Because a lot of the non-alcoholic brands have grown up adjunct and outside. And I actually think that the reason I'm successful with non-alcoholic wine is I did and do occasionally still love wine. Yeah.

Right.

Renee (05:33.931)
Yeah, as kind of the foundation of sort of your, maybe your own expertise and your own passion. It is deriving from the fact that you love wine, you love educating about wine, you love the whole process of what it takes to curate a really good tasting wine, not only to celebrate, but for, you know, the pleasure of actually

consuming something that makes you feel a certain way, going back to that kind of artistry behind it. It's like invoking this or evoking this emotion behind something that just makes you feel good. And it tastes really good. So yeah, I totally can see where that's coming from. And it really does set apart Noughty in the fact that it's not two separate things. Like it's not just a good non-alcoholic

wine. It's a good wine, like hands down.

Thank you. Sorry, Mara.

I also

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (06:43.63)
I was just going to say, it says I'm not recording. So I don't know if this will actually capture in the actual recording, but I did want to say that I think it is interesting how you mentioned that you think part of your success is because you are not like, you're not just alcohol-free facing. Like you have a history of like alcoholic drinks, beverages, and

I feel like when you start talking to people about anything that just like pushes their beliefs or identity, it becomes a little dicey. But you're, you're already coming in with this presence of like, I'm not saying don't ever drink alcohol or it's bad or this, like I actually have a very wide, experience with all of this. And I'm just in opening the door and inviting you to another option.

I think you put that beautiful, I think that's the beautiful way to explain it. I mean, as a brand, we're officially alcohol agnostic. We take no position. And I think it's been a fascinating journey for me because everybody who doesn't drink has really found us pretty much very early, almost like they were waiting for us. And that's been fantastic to hear everybody's stories.

you know, and receptive.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (08:01.121)
And I think often people are shocked that I occasionally still drink and I didn't have any issues with it. And I still, don't drink very much now. And actually the longer I'm in the naughty world, the less I drink, right? Because, sort of, I guess summarizes why my brand exists. It's not less than. And what I love about naughty is it gives me what my wine did, even though it hasn't got alcohol. And it's kind of this, I've coined this phrase, which...

I think makes sense to me and hopefully others, which is you're making a wellness choice without noticing. Now, obviously, if you've got a strong relationship against alcohol, you're choosing that strategically. But equally, to really move the needle on non-alcoholic drinking and wine, I wanna bring wine drinkers on board, right? know, bring everybody to the table. So it's like, taste it, it tastes good. It's low sugar, it's organic or low intervention. It's just a great ritual, just try it.

Hmm.

Mm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (08:58.733)
Oh yeah, it's good, right, there you go. Instead of all of those things that we have a complicated relationship with that we can or can't do or may or may not be addicted to or whatever it is, substances, whatever, or even just food addictions, people who don't want, I don't want to eat too much cake, I might get fat or whatever it is. As soon as you're getting into that negative brain to the worm of not doing things, it's just not.

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (09:27.691)
not a lovely place to be. And we're the opposite of that as a brand. We just say, welcome, we've got a beautiful wine range, it's non-alcoholic, my provocative strap line is wine just better.

Yeah, well, that's what I gonna ask too with the, I mean, I love the branding aspect and Mara, I'm sure you probably can maybe speak to this a little more too because of the just creative mind that you have, but the branding behind Noughty itself, how did that process kind of come to be?

Hehehehehe

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (10:00.269)
Well, there's kind of a funny story actually. And there was a funny moment early days, because we launched in kind of 2019, so full in London and New York almost at the same time. And then of course the pandemic hit in 2020, that thing we've all tried to forget. But everybody was online, the great and the good of the drinks world. And it gave me a very interesting opportunity to not be literally selling in America, but be online with all of the taste makers. And actually,

The naughty AF thing was alcohol free. I'm British, right? I'm very British. And the penny drop moment came with my New York friends or some people in the industry and they were like, oh, I love that. And privately, I had this real panic moment afterwards. My husband's our comms director. He's kind of a PR genius. And I had this panic and I'm like, oh my God, they don't think that's.

Right.

You

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (10:55.541)
alcohol-free, had forgotten the way Americans use AF. my God. We needed to see some sort of massive pivot on the website and whatever. And then we really just leant in and realized it was perfect. So it was just a really beautiful, happy accident. But I'm still playful about it because technically it's alcohol-free, it's just you Americans.

Hahaha!

You

Renee (11:09.782)
Yes.

Renee (11:20.791)
I know we like to be the aggressive. as fuck. Okay, yeah. Hell yeah.

But we've, you know, we've had so much fun with it since, you know, with our merch and we've done limited edition caps. And I mean, it's really hit. But the beautiful thing is, and I think it's a bit like our brand name, Naughty, you know, I wanted one word, I wanted it to be catchy. I wanted it to be slightly provocative. I wanted that, I like that double entendre, which is the play on words. You know, it hasn't got alcohol. It's still fun and mischief.

Yeah, yeah, that's so funny.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (11:42.136)
Mm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (11:55.457)
You know, there was so many different things semantically that I loved about the word and the spelling. But I just think that, importantly for me, it also needed to be elegant and fit in fancy five-star hotels, Michelin star places, beautiful upscale places where it has fitted from the start. And so we were always dancing in that delicate area.

Mm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (12:23.373)
And luckily it stayed in both places at once, which was what I wanted. And I think it probably sums up my relationship with Britain and America, because I'm British, but I love selling in America. I'm quite big for a British female founder. I'm unapologetic. I'm ambitious. I'm loud. If you give me a microphone, I'll speak without kind of going a bit British about it.

Culturally, I fit in really well in the US. So I think I'm really happy with the way that brand elements turned out.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (13:03.214)
I love it. I love just hearing about all of it. And this might sound so ignorant, but just your accent alone when you say naughty, I'm just like, my gosh, like, it just sounds so much better. Like, it sounds...

Yeah.

Whereas I like it when you Americans say it, so go figure.

That's very funny.

That's so funny. my gosh. But yeah, it's so true, like how the AF really played in your favor, even though there was this moment of like, no, you know, but it's like, actually, that's what like probably helped things catch on and like, that's branding. And that's, it's just kind of genius.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (13:42.829)
Wow, you're very sweet. I'm very happy now with our brand actually. I mean, I'm brand obsessed and I hadn't really realized how hard, well, I knew Brandbilt was hard because I'd had a champagne business prior, so I'd sort of cut my teeth with that. But I always laugh now looking back, most founders would say, naivety is kind of a smart.

position to be in when you're entering a new industry. But, you know, I mean, I picked the hardest thing to do ever. I always said, you know, for the easy win, I do tech all over again. I mean, to try, you know, to create a new category, to build a drinks brand, to go into the wine space and do something somebody hadn't done before. You know what I mean? The benefit of hindsight, I'm like, what the hell was I thinking? You know, but also I'm like, I could have given myself a much easier ride here.

Ugh.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (14:40.385)
So here we go, know, bring on the next chapter.

Mmm.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (14:50.008)
Right. How have you navigated? just, you you're here and your energy is so beautiful and wonderful and you have so many great things to say. And then of course, as we know, life and these scenarios, like, okay, you have life and there's things that are going to come up that are challenging, especially when you're going against all the odds. What are some things that you typically do to help keep you grounded?

or passionate or motivated? Are there days where you're like, I don't want to do this and you still do it? What's kind of your advice to someone who's going through an entrepreneurial experience or not just life?

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (15:27.509)
Yeah, it's a wild ride. It's a wild ride. I think I've learned it's not going to be for everybody. And I think there's a strange dichotomy between a world that really celebrates the hustle and celebrates entrepreneurship. And of course, with AI, most kids are going to be doing their own thing. you know, I think what I always try to do with people when I'm mentoring is say to them, what do you want to achieve here?

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (15:56.513)
And what I mean is, going back to my point, I've picked the hardest thing. Build a brand, build a new category, work between America and Europe, you know, whatever. And I want to build a household name. That was always the plan. I've chosen to do something extremely hard that's going to require sacrifice. At the other end of the spectrum, know, side hustles to put food on the table are equally important and require different sacrifice.

So I think what I have learned on my journey is I have extreme resilience, extreme energy, and I'm all in, and I love people. I think if I didn't love people, I think I would have been found out because it's all relationships, right? Let's assume I've got great liquids, which I do, know, thankfully that was, I was all about the liquid. Otherwise why bother in the wine industry, right? I mean, that's the obvious tick. Luckily I can build brands. I've proved that now, you know.

everything gets more challenging, but you get much more used to rolling with the challenges. So the challenges start to appear easier because you've got all that resilient experience. But what I've learned very much is when investors say, back the founder, I now understand why. Like literally, like if you've got a founder who you're backing with a very average idea, and then you've got...

Hmm.

Renee (17:13.613)
you

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (17:22.175)
an incredible idea with a very average founder, the former's the ones who back. Every business pivots constantly. They just don't publicize the pivots or as you know, the truthful, the truthful unpacking is a crashing handbrake turn, right? So every business, it's constantly morphing.

Hmm.

Renee (17:35.073)
Yes.

Renee (17:39.2)
Yeah

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (17:44.493)
And so I hadn't really realized how much it was gonna be about my character and me and what is inside of me. And to go back to your point at the beginning, how do I stay, how do I essentially keep my shit together? I'm very type A, so I have to make sure I do exercise. It's a bit like people who've got puppies and have to walk them, otherwise they go a bit nuts. So I think even though the travel can sometimes be exhausting,

I love people, I love travel, eating good food, I like new situations, like trends. So, so much of the things I love are built into my business in that regard. I'm not down the mines, I'm not working with youngsters. I look at people doing real tough jobs and trying to put food on the table. So, I'm the last person to complain, right? I chose this and it's exciting. I just think on the other side,

Mm-hmm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (18:41.323)
We all need to be more realistic about what, certainly what a brand build takes. And unfortunately the world is littered with entrepreneurs who've not made it. And often it will be not necessarily anything to do with, know, them not being able to get funding or just the sort of furniture of it. It will be that their psyche couldn't take it. Cause it's tough. It's tough, you know.

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. We talk about that all the yes, all the time, like the other side of the highlight reel of sort of the the successes that you see. And that's what brings me kind of to my next question around. So you said Noughty launched in 2018 or 2019 timeframe 2019. So and even before then, like

We talk about that.

Renee (19:31.605)
If you could give people or describe sort of a timeline on how long it has taken for you to kind of get to like, what is that? How long has it actually taken?

wow, yeah.

Yeah. So 2019 to 26 is the naughty journey. And of course I had a champagne business prior to that. And I trained in wine prior to that. So, you know, there were many years that led to the naughty launch where I was, luckily I had a husband who was earning, you know, so I wasn't about to be homeless, but you know, we had all kinds of times where money was tight, you know, because we were a two income

Yeah.

Renee (19:52.747)
Right.

Renee (20:04.738)
Mm.

Right.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (20:11.915)
I had a good, really good career in broadcasting. I used to earn a nice salary. So take out that income and then go to study. I did a whole year study. I remember putting the course on my credit card, you And so, yeah, I think there's such a sort of strange entrepreneur world we live in with TikTok and social media where some people are building a business through unpeeling layers and sharing their pain and trauma, whatever that.

whether it be personal or literal or behind the scenes stuff. And that's one thing, isn't it? And then of course, if you're building a brand, I think the word authentic is, I would argue very much overused now. And I think we have to really put it to bed unless we can unpack what it should actually mean, because nobody wants an authentic surgeon doing the operation, right? You want a reliable.

You

Going back to reliability, incremental gains, the boring bit. But I think all of that is relevant. And if you're building a brand, arguably it wouldn't be desperately smart or appropriate for me to start going on social media every day, sharing all my problems. That would be a very different journey, a different business, and probably wouldn't be very useful for my brand.

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (21:38.133)
And so I think it all goes back, doesn't it, to what you want to achieve. For me, everything comes back to the vision. And I'm often shocked when lots of people, even quite far on journeys, can't answer that question for me. So when I'm doing mentorship, I really drill down into understanding, we say five-year plan, it's never five years anymore. That, sadly, that ship sailed, or it has at the moment.

But you know, I say to people, what is this in five years?

Yeah, right? Yeah.

No? I did. Well, I'm learning too, right? I'm just sharing what I've learned today. I'm always learning, Mara. And I think that I worry about people who die not learning, you know?

I'm learning right now. This is great.

Renee (22:24.749)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's something I admire too about Mara just personally is that she is such an inquisitor, just asking the questions and always learning. And that's why we love being able to have this platform to have guests like yourself who have a somewhat maybe, I mean, I guess you could say somewhat traditional in some sense of how you've gotten to this place.

Mm. Yeah.

Renee (22:54.391)
but it's also a combination of very different things that have gotten you to this place that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be so linear. And that's what we want to amplify for people is the fact that if you are following certain areas and joy in your life and passions and things that you love and keeping, that vision in mind, but not getting stuck on the process, but actually learning from the process and growing from the process.

It works out in your favor.

Yeah, I think so. And I've worked out that I love strategy and challenges. I think I've only learned that on this journey. So I had a friend come over for coffee first thing this morning. I'm trying to make sure I still see friends because that's another thing. It's hard to keep them when you're doing this. Your family, everybody gets crossed because you're never available, right? And she had a few problems going on in her life. And the way I...

My brain, hadn't realised quite how analytical, I was like, well, we could deal with that and we could deal with it. And if we did this, we could do that. And I have to be careful, because of course not everybody wants to hear that. Luckily in this situation she did. But yeah, I strategies to my buzz literally.

Yeah. And it's a natural one, just saying.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (24:14.211)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to I wanted to go back to what Renee was saying as well about.

following the things that light you up and that type of stuff and like this term that it will work out for you. I think it's just important to come back to that and it's like how do we define work out for you? Because some people get so caught up in, my business is gonna be successful, I'm gonna make this amount of money in this amount of time and it's like, hold on, if you can not be so attached to what...

Well... Yeah.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (24:53.014)
you know, like the outcome might be, but that through the process, you're growing and evolving and you will take away, you know, so much experience. I feel like that's what we really try to like introduce people to and having those conversations. Yeah.

The journey. Yeah, the journey. Yeah, and that I think is the million dollar challenge because I'm hugely ambitious. I always have been and I'm very competitive. And just to be clear, not at anybody else's expense, but because I know, I don't know why I felt it necessary to clarify that. I don't think if I was a guy, I probably would have clarified that. Let's scrub that. Let's scrub that.

I was just about to say that. I was just about to say that.

Let's grab that. But yeah, I don't know. I'm not very focused on gender, but I've realized that I don't think I've ever had a man qualify competitiveness. Ever. And so I... Where were we? Sorry.

Mmm.

Renee (25:48.631)
Totally.

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Renee (25:55.057)
I know it's like, wait a second, that's actually something to maybe touch upon because I think that's so true. Yeah, it's so juicy and it's so true.

Hehe.

I know it's like, that's, that's, that's juicy.

Well, I think too, we're just saying like, I don't know, I feel like, yes, we can be.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (26:20.487)
I feel like, at least from my experience, I've been fed in past recent times that if I follow this certain type of model for my business, I'm going to like, this is going to be the outcome. And I think it's like, okay, yeah, you know, it's about the journey, this and that, but also at the end of the day, like not only glorifying the journey, because at end of the day, people have to pay their bills and they have to put food on the table. So it's like, what the fuck?

Bye.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (26:42.653)
Exactly. No, but you've just hit the nail on the head and those things have to be unpacked, I think, quite early because I had a husband, I wasn't going to be homeless. You know what mean? So I could put my course on my credit card. Would that have been recommended for someone who had a less stable infrastructure and hadn't had a previous career? Probably not.

Yeah, right.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (26:55.607)
Right.

Renee (27:00.386)
Yes.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (27:07.973)
I think we have to frame everything with where each person is and what is possible. And that's where I think sometimes there are conversations for people to say, well, it probably is worth trying as a side hustle first, because you don't want someone to go all in without a safety net, certainly not in this world, right? So it's like unpacking people's situation and probably having quite difficult.

Bright.

Yep.

conversations and particularly from a monetary position, know, America's not cheap to live in, nor is Britain, but I know America can be particularly tough. So that's a really important question. So I think delusion would be dangerous to be a part of that sort of journey, if we're being brutally honest.

Hmm.

Renee (27:57.463)
Yeah.

Totally. And I feel like this conversation is timely because I recently had this conversation with someone in my family who I love and who is quite a bit older than me. we see things, we see things, there's similarity there, you know, but there's also, we have our different experiences that get projected onto the scenario. And which is like, I've been

on this entrepreneurial path for three years and kind of did the thing that probably isn't the smartest at all. Not really taking into consideration my, yeah, yeah, like not taking into consideration what my actual scenario was and being like, sign me up for that program. I'm going to do this, this and this, and then I'm going to make this and I'm good to go. Well, did it turn out like that? No, it didn't. And so, you know, this family member has seen me

We all have, we all have. Yeah?

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (28:57.442)
go through this for several years and they're like, what are you doing? You know, and I'm like, it's not, but she doesn't see my everyday life. And so I'm like, it's not that I am delusional. I'm, I'm still with you and I very much so value financial security. And I'm trying to figure out what I can do to get me, you know, to get there. And I haven't given up. I'm not living in the Lulu land.

in the face.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (29:20.834)
But I do wish I had mentors at the beginning of this journey who were a little bit more transparent about the risk and version. Yeah, yeah.

What it actually takes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

But, and I know it's been horrendously painful and I'm so sorry to hear it, there are two things that come out of that for me. First thing is you learn an important lesson the hard way, which will stick, and you'll go on and not do that again, but importantly, share the lesson, which you just did. And I'm sure if anyone wants to unpack it more deeply with you, you will. The second thing is I might pause, and I always say to people, it's wonderful to have supportive friends and family.

they're often a bit too close when it comes to having those conversations about business, because they've got different relationships with you that come into a different play and different analysis of you. So I'm very mindful personally, I don't go to any of my friends or family for business advice. I keep it really separate.

Hehehehehe

Renee (30:22.07)
Yeah.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (30:25.591)
Mm-hmm.

So I might encourage you to consider being slightly more private about things because otherwise it's not that they don't care about you. It's just that I think family and friends cannot help bringing so much of their personal relationship with you to the table. And I think it can also discolor analysis in that regard.

Totally.

what I was going to say is like you have and hold different values when it comes to what it is you see your life and how you want your life to unfold on a daily basis, which the value structure could be different than your family members. And I think to what Amanda was saying too, is it can maybe muddy the waters of your own voice on what you want, because then you get all the

outside noise from your friends, from your family, whomever you're kind of seeking this, and maybe you don't even seek it. Like maybe it is unsolicited advice too. Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (31:30.101)
Yeah, sometimes it's unsolicited. Yeah, mean, so in that regard, you might find this strange, but mostly when I'm asked about my business by close family and friends, I say, it's great, thanks. And then I talk about them or try to talk about something else in my life.

Right. Most of the time unsolicited.

Renee (31:45.162)
That's it.

I need to do that. That's what I need to do, I think too, because it's funny, Mara, that you bring that up too, because Amanda, I wanted to ask you about how do you deal with maybe skeptics and maybe not with family, but maybe you do have skeptics among your family with non-alcoholic wine. But my dad and I, we bonded over our love of wine. Growing up, he's French Canadian, like wine is right next to, if not above water.

yeah, yeah.

Renee (32:18.162)
in our households. And so when I started on this journey of drinking less, it was very scary for me because I was like, God, I'm not going to be able to connect with my dad on anything anymore because that's what we bonded over. And so now I'm starting to introduce and he is starting to taste some non-alcoholic wines, I will say, but yeah, how do you go about kind of

managing that because I love the fact that you're like, yeah, the business is doing great. Just kind of leaving it at that. How do you navigate maybe some skeptics, especially amongst the wine audience?

We'll just get back to your father. We're in French. We're in Quebec. Yeah, selling, I don't know if he lives in Vancouver or Quebec. Okay, we've got a lot of lovely Canadian press. Yeah. So hopefully he'll like Noughty We'll get him on board. Yeah, skeptics. Yeah, I think that it's really important that I share with people that I think

No, he's in it. He is in Georgia. He's in Georgia. Yeah. Yeah.

Renee (33:14.878)
Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (33:27.711)
If you're going to do something different, you shouldn't really crave acceptance from people close around you. And if you do, I think you're playing a dangerous game. And I think that because people close to you, it's a mirror to themselves, then the judgment comes in. So I don't crave any acceptance from people close to me. Truthfully,

Mm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (33:57.779)
I might sound tough here, but I worked out that if you want to do something really different, it will unsettle people. So I had to find peace with that very early. And I was already a woman launching a champagne in an industry that was incredibly snobby and historically very male dominant. And so I was not afraid to provoke.

And I think going back to the question about what you want to do, I wanted to do something very dramatic. So I had to get very comfortable with skepticism because I mean, I get skeptics every day. If I let them upset me, I would not have a global brand. And I'd be crying in a corner constantly. So I wanted to achieve something incredibly ambitious, which was to be

Hmm.

Renee (34:46.774)
Yes.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (34:56.939)
the leading premium non-alcoholic wine in a category that didn't really exist and be a household name. I mean, that's kind of audacious, right? So I had to deal with my self-worth and belief in what I was doing almost from the get-go. So I used to sort of play an almost perverse game with myself where I'd be like, you'll be back.

you'll be back. So people would say, that's a stupid idea. And I'd be like, you think so? Well, I'm turning over X million. And then suddenly, I mean, now, now, now people invite me for lunch, who probably I mean, so there's just, there's a lot to unpack here. I guess it depends what you want to do. So for me, the more people were skeptical, the more

They're back!

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (35:45.111)
confident I was. I'm not saying that that's an approach for everybody, but I think whatever you're trying to do, if you want to be a founder, you've got to really find personal strength. You cannot rely on others for your confidence. And if you have to, I don't think it's really for you, to be honest. It's an incredibly lonely day and it doesn't mean your cup won't be filled up by other founders. I would argue that the best

Yeah, no, I think that's such a great piece of advice.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (36:14.487)
people to fill up your cup, but other people on their own separate growth journeys. Those I think are objectively the best people because you're not directly competing, you share all your private struggles and they've got no personal acts to grind or opinions. So I find whenever I'm in the room with a bunch of founders and there's no money or investors in the room, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (36:39.393)
That's when you have all your super private conversations and that's when the truth happens. It's unfortunately not very often, but when you're early stage, I say to people, a small like-minded community of founders. They can be at any stage, but it's helpful if they're at a similar sort of stage. They don't have to be your friends, but you can all agree to confidentially share problems and just get them out there.

share.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (37:05.729)
But I really think that you can only count on yourself for that confidence piece. I just think that, unfortunately, I don't think the journey's gonna work otherwise.

Yeah, yeah.

What would you say, what do you think is the, this is probably so multifaceted, but one of the biggest things like someone needs to embody in order to be able to go on that entrepreneurial journey. Like, because I feel like this conversation for me brings up, there's a confidence piece, but also I'm thinking of just

you know, growth spurts throughout your business when you're looking for advice and you have to discern who you're turning to, you know, okay, I'm not turning to my family because that's going to be whatever. And then who do you know, like the discernment piece and the confidence piece and the consistency piece, like, what do you feel like has been really pivotal for you?

So I think that your network is absolutely key here. So I go to different people for different things.

Renee (38:13.504)
Yeah.

You know, like I'm only great at a couple of things, vision, palette, brand build, maybe three things, whatever. And then I want my amazing finance person, my amazing PR person, you know, my community building person, my whoever. So your network becomes key here because of course you can't, it's hard to ask for a give without giving yourself, but that's where that.

infrastructure of network building. You know, for example, we've taken this call now and if you, if next week you go, my God, Amanda's going to be helpful with X, you know, then you should email me, whatever. Do you know what I mean? Everybody you meet, you've been so kind to give me a platform so I can't wait if I can ever be useful to you. It's that kind of thing. I think that I got used to building, I suppose, being an ex-journalist. I was never afraid to ask for 15 minutes of help, but equally,

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (39:08.063)
I would want to make sure I was also trying to give something. So I might sort of say, I'd love to give you a case of naughty. Could I also take 15 minutes just to ask you about this or, you know, finding that sort of relaxed, reciprocal, not too formal way of building that network. And then the first part of your question, I would say singularly, if one has to boil it down to one thing, then resilience.

like literally resilience. So the ability to manage to keep bouncing back every single time. And that gets easier, but it's a really hard thing. I think it's hardest actually in the beginning because I remember, I remember steam coming out of my ears almost literally early days. And now,

God forbid, if I get a phone call from one of my team with some disaster, I'll probably be like, okay, well, let's unpack that. Where's the ship? Well, how much is broken? So I have lived that in a literal sense, and I think it's that resilience, but I don't know how you can build that.

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (40:26.763)
without constantly picking yourself back up. And I also appreciate some people can't pick themselves back up, which I guess goes back to my original point, which is that I don't think it's for everybody. And can it be a side hustle? So what's the journey? so I think that's when perhaps we should look deeper into our psyche to see.

Right.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (40:55.051)
You know, and especially when we're young. I mean, I'm a lot older than you two, I'm sure. And you look so young, but I mean, it sounds like you're doing an amazing job and maybe you're just being a bit hard on yourself.

You

The pressure. Yeah, we definitely put pressure on ourselves and I love the and I want to emphasize the pressure. I know seriously it is like we do it to ourselves sometimes or a lot of the time and I think that what goes back and I really want to emphasize that you said you weren't afraid to provoke. I just think that's it sticks out to me so much, especially as

Yeah

This is a pressure cooker.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (41:31.447)
Mm-hmm.

and not to make it a gender thing. But I do think that there are other pressures that we put on ourselves as competitive people, but also from the perspective of being a woman. There are other pressures that I think that we put on ourselves. So the fact that you are really leading from a place of not afraid to provoke people.

because you are unapologetically passionate about what you're doing and your vision and how you can help other people through this. I mean...

This is like what we all need to operate from, even if it is a side thing or whatever it is for you, even if you're not a founder. I think if more people in general came from a place of not people pleasing, we would be able to connect on so many different levels.

Hahaha!

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (42:30.101)
I think that's the, I think people pleasing is really not relevant here at all. I think being respectful is relevant. I used to have an early stage club called the Polite Disruptors Club. I would always try to be polite and I would try to leave any situation, I would want to leave it better than when I went in. That's my energy. I'm like, I always read energy. I'm not religious or even very spiritual, but energy. I'm like, I want people to think I showed up.

Sure.

Renee (42:43.104)
Hahaha

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (42:59.115)
think I did my best and remember me for that, that doesn't have to equate being liked. I think respected rather than liked. I think we as women probably are less used to being comfortable with that. I guess that's where the gender play comes in more.

Yeah, right.

Renee (43:17.002)
Right. Yeah. Well, with that, yeah, go ahead, Mar.

When do you, I was just going to say like, cause you know, we also are acknowledging that it's okay for this, entrepreneurial journey to not be the long game for someone. And when do you think is a good time, like for someone to make that call, you know, cause there's obviously no, you know, do this for X amount of years or X amount of months, and then check in and make a decision one way or the other. Like,

Absolutely young.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (43:52.054)
When does someone know that, maybe this isn't for me if we're talking about, you know, you have to be resilient and you got to do these things and like, but how long do you do that before, you know, actually, this isn't for me? Or is it just fucking a gut decision in the moment?

Sadly, don't think we probably publicized the stories enough because I'm sure people want to fail quietly, but burnout is extremely prevalent in a literal sense. think we use burnout quite flippantly, but literal burnout is extremely prevalent in founders, is depression, proper clinical depression, unfortunately.

I think that that's a very good question. And of course there's no magic answer. And I guess it goes back to how well you know yourself. And if you think it's not serving you, then it probably really isn't serving you. I mean, I guess I wake up every day still wanting to fight the fight. Some days I don't feel like fighting the fight, but I have got used to that.

process and how I after my coffee, what should I work out? Should I get outside? Whatever, if I'm not traveling, you you've got your little bits. So I know myself well enough to know that, you know, that I'm fine. So I guess it's that knowledge of oneself that if it's not serving you and if, well, I think the biggest flag is if you're financially getting yourself into trouble, that's a massive red flag.

I mean, everybody's got to make sure they can have their basic needs comfortably met, haven't they? That's what we want in this world, right? So if you're struggling to pay your rent and put food on the table, then I think that's a problem, you know? And if you're struggling to get out of bed for the wrong reasons, if we're getting into dark mental health space, of course, that again is a massive red flag. without, I'm not a clinician, but...

Renee (45:36.989)
Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (45:48.853)
I'm guessing I'm just speaking from a rational place here, you know.

Right. Mm-hmm.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (45:57.816)
Yeah, it's just not a black and white, you know, decision point. it, right. like, takes.

Yeah, it's not really outlined.

Sorry, Mo, what I would add is, I think if somebody's wondering if it's not for them, it probably isn't.

Yeah, if there's even a thought. Yeah.

Right, right. Like if you're already, if you're asking that question, yeah. Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (46:15.733)
Why? I mean, because the romantic part of me goes, well, Jesus, you if someone's not that bothered and they could clock off work at a reasonable hour and they can meet their friends when they say they'll meet them and they won't cancel things at the last minute. you know, I had a death, very close death recently and absolutely not being flippant. But, you know, I had to speak to the person organizing the funeral and I was a bit like, God, I'm traveling. God, okay, so I couldn't. I mean, so it's real.

the journey and so, know, if somebody's kind of going, well, I could start work at this time, pretty much clock off at this time, have my weekends free and earn a reasonable living, then why wouldn't you? So if that appeals, I would 100 % recommend that. mean, this is the worst thing to do for someone who's probably not gonna be all in, I would say. I'm really putting people off, but I think it's important to.

You know, I do because I think that I love the fact that it's become so romanticized on the one hand, but I also think the flip side of that is not realistic, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is just, it's just interesting to me because you do have to, I don't know, I find the balance in here because on one end, you know, we're saying you have to build the resilience. I'm sure along many successful founders, there have been moments where they're like, oh, I don't know about this, you know, but they do, they do keep going, you know? So it's like being able to discern and being honest with yourself and bringing it back to that point of

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (47:44.909)
100 % of course.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (47:55.211)
Yeah, but I think, I think, sorry, sorry to interrupt. I was just thinking before we move off the point, I think that we are, have all those moments, but I've never doubted the journey and what I'm doing.

really knowing yourself on whether

Renee (48:10.017)
Yeah.

And I don't have mental health issues. have bad mornings and bad days. And I always try to separate that for people. And I say, if you've got clinical depression, then 100 % entrepreneurship should not be for you. Not until you've sorted out that piece of your life. But yeah, I guess it's just that idea of I've never questioned

You've just so clarify that for me.

Renee (48:28.012)
Mm.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (48:34.168)
Mm-hmm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (48:39.892)
not doing this.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (48:45.646)
Okay, so that's like, that's the differentiating piece, not like, oh my gosh, I have to wake up and this is my task list and that, you know, oh gosh, I don't want to do that versus versus this journey, you know, I'm like, I don't really know about this. Like those are two different things. And to have the awareness to discern the difference between the two, like

Well absolutely that, yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (48:58.803)
Absolutely. For me, they are.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (49:03.637)
Yeah, I, yeah, bang on. And I also think that founders who are trying to do big things are also a bit crazy. So in a literal sense, and I think people who run side hustles and do amazing things on a smaller level are so impressive and don't have to be quite so crazy. I mean, I'm un- I'm un-employable. I'm literally un-employable.

Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (49:32.919)
You know, I'm the crazy founder. Once you're in, you're all in. And I think that's probably where the difference lies. And I keep coming back to that recognition of side hustles and small businesses because they're so important and they're a chance to try things out as well.

Yeah, yeah, unemployable. think that's fantastic. You're like, nope. Yeah.

mean, no one could ever tell me what to do. know, imagine my poor husband, he's used to leading. When we're in the room together, it's, we to be quite careful.

Yeah, I love it. I know.

Yeah.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (50:06.21)
That's so funny. Amanda, you mentioned that you're not very spiritual, but I am just curious if you happen to know your astrological zodiac sign.

May I have a smoke? What was the guess?

was gonna ask that too. Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (50:19.24)
Gemini.

I was gonna say Aries.

Awesome. I'm yeah, I'm a Sagittarius.

What do you do?

Gemini. Okay. Cool. Yeah.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (50:27.542)
Nice.

no, you're not! That is very literal. I love it. I love you.

And I'm a Libra, so this is me always trying to understand.

No, I love the lighter note too, yeah, because I think that's something else too that we wanted to, we are starting to ask our guests that. So I think that's actually just a very just fun thing to do. But also, what do you like to do for fun? When you have that actual minute or second outside of naughtiness.

Yeah, yeah. That's fun.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (50:59.501)
These are always the awkward conversations of founders like me, because we kind of panic and we go, I had a whole thing recently when I realized I had no hobbies, because of course, I don't have any time for them. I had that, you know, it starts to feel so one dimensional as an entrepreneur. I guess, if I'm honest, so many of my fun things have become incorporated into my life.

Yes.

Renee (51:12.925)
Yeah.

Mmm.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (51:26.475)
whether that be wine, whether that be great food and restaurants, whether it be hospitality, whether it be fashion when I'm traveling, whether it be art when I go to different cities that I often don't have time to visit galleries, but I romanticize, might. Yeah, there's not a lot of...

Your fun things has become just ingrained in sort of like your everyday stuff that you do. Yeah.

I guess, I guess, and laughter is important still to me. I have a very good sense of relativity. So I'm always trying to find fun in difficult moments where possible. yeah, the hobby's thing's a tricky one. When I read those sort of entrepreneur things, I get up at 5 a.m. and I meditate and I do an hour's feng shui and I'm like, really, really.

But know, so I think I've just come out and honestly said, I think it's quite hard for entrepreneurs to have hobbies. I've got paddle on my to-do list, but I still haven't managed to play. So I've got a whole list of things that I would like to be hobbies.

Mm.

Renee (52:29.477)
I mean, I think that's a good starting point. Yeah.

Yeah, like what. Yeah, and I also like because it was reminding me when we're having this come, this topic just came up and like fun and I feel like fun can feel kind of big like a thing you have to do that, you know, gives you this thing. But then you started mentioning like art galleries and I was like, okay, like how does someone who's so busy start to just what do you do to acknowledge the beauty that's around you?

Mmm.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (53:00.396)
you know, and that's walking through New York City and acknowledging this beautiful sculpture, you know, like, it's cool.

I'm quite good at that. So my personality is very half glass full. So I find lovely moments. Like I'll get off this call and I think, we had a lovely conversation. I've made two new friends. I'm very, I'm very, it goes back to energy. You you've both been amazing energy. I've bounced off you even with the hard conversations, you know. So yeah, I see beauty all the time. you know, whether I'm enjoying my first coffee of the day, whether the sun's just come out in London.

You

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (53:28.482)
Yeah.

I'm sky obsessed, sunsets. There's no issues with me around beauty. I always appreciate the aesthetic.

Yeah, and tomorrow's point that is that is a hobby. That is a hobby because a lot of people don't do that. You know, yeah.

Yeah, it's fine. It's a hobby.

Wait, that's my hobby. Okay, good. Yeah, I'm good at that. There, there, We found something I'm good at with a hobby.

Renee (53:50.558)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it doesn't have to be the traditional sense of things. Like that is something that brings you joy every single day and that many people don't slow down enough to do, probably especially as a founder. So hell yeah.

Yes! Yes.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (54:09.513)
Okay, stuff, yes, small stuff, good. Yeah, like that, thank you. I'm from even better now, me for the win.

Right, right.

Good.

Renee (54:20.032)
Fantastic. Well, Amanda, we just so appreciate your time, your tips, your advice. And I am just, I'm just so humbled and thankful to be able to have this conversation with you because I have just been admiring you and what you're doing and with Noughty in general and how that's been incorporated in my own journey. And so we just, we thank you so much for your time today.

That's amazing.

amanda 2026 2 20  15 8 23 CFR (54:45.229)
It's been so lovely. I really appreciate it. And of course, this is, I always say to everybody, know, one person's sort of sharing is only relevant to my story. If it can be useful to anybody, then I'm grateful. That's the only reason I try to share, you know, in as honest a way as I can. And Mara, I hope we'll become new friends. And if there's anything you think, Amanda might have some ideas on that, I would love to bounce them around with you.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (55:13.566)
Yes, Amanda, I'm so happy we met. This conversation has been beautiful and yeah, grateful for both of y'all.

Yeah! Awesome!

So they're not going be in the same city at the same time sometime over a bottle of Noughty.

Yes, my gosh, we have to and we'll document it all. It sounds good. Okay, guys, till next time. Bye.

Yeah.

riverside mara raw video cfr nosedive 0140 (55:31.714)
Yes. Okay, bye.