Empowered Ease
Welcome to Empowered Ease, hosted by Jenn Ohlinger—a holistic coach, founder of The Moonflower Collective, and critical care nurse dedicated to revolutionizing women's health. Join us each week as we delve into the transformative stories of healers, health practitioners, and everyday women like you, challenging the patriarchal framework through empowerment and holistic healing. Through engaging storytelling, our podcast highlights each woman's unique journey toward embracing their feminine gifts, trusting their body, and prioritizing their mind, body, and soul. Discover how by empowering ourselves, we can pave the way for stronger relationships and a more balanced world.
Empowered Ease
Stephanie Konter O'Hara Navigating the Postpartum Journey: Finding Support When You Need It Most
Hi!! I would love to hear from you!
When Stephanie Konter O'Hara—a mental health therapist with over 13 years of experience—became a mother, she discovered something surprising: all her professional training couldn't prepare her for the emotional tsunami of postpartum anxiety. "I thought I knew what to expect," she shares candidly. "I was definitely not prepared for everything that I experienced emotionally in postpartum."
This powerful conversation explores the hidden realities of maternal mental health that aren't covered in typical birth preparation classes. Stephanie reveals critical information every expectant and new parent should know, including the surprising fact that most women experiencing postpartum depression feel most suicidal between months eight and ten—not during the initial newborn phase when most support is concentrated. We discuss the biological perfect storm of physical recovery, severe sleep deprivation, and hormonal fluctuations that create unique vulnerabilities during this transition.
Stephanie's insights go beyond the standard warnings about postpartum blues, diving into practical advice for building effective support systems and finding the right healthcare providers who truly listen. She emphasizes that typical "baby blues" should only last about two weeks—anything beyond that warrants professional support. For partners, family members, and friends, she offers guidance on providing meaningful support without judgment, starting with the simple question: "How can I support you?"
The discussion extends beyond the immediate postpartum period to explore how women's hormonal shifts throughout life—from new motherhood through perimenopause—profoundly affect values, relationships, and identity. This conversation offers validation for anyone navigating these transitions and practical guidance for building the support systems necessary to thrive through them.
Subscribe now to hear more conversations about the real, unfiltered experiences of women's health journeys and join our community of listeners seeking authentic dialogue about life's most challenging transitions.
Stephanie Konter-O'Hara, LPC, ACS is passionate about making space in the world for everyone to be themselves and live in the most connected and authentic way that they can. She is a Mom, Podcaster (Redefining US), Licensed Mental Health Therapist, Group Practice Owner of WellMinded Counseling and author of the workbook Becoming Mommy. She truly loves to help people explore their relationships with themselves and believes that we should all surround ourselves with more opportunities to connect with our village.
Here is her website: https://wellmindedcounseling.com/redefining-us-podcast
Link to her workbook: https://a.co/d/b462dWn
Socials (instagram and facebook) @wellmindedcounseling
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Hello and welcome to Empowered Ease. My guest today is Stephanie Conter O'Hara. She is a mental health therapist, specializing in anxiety and postpartum issues. She's also the host of the Redefining Us podcast, author of the Becoming Mommy workbook and founder of the Well-Minded Counseling Group Practice. Welcome, Stephanie, how are you? I'm good.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you and have your listeners tune in.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited for you to be here. It sounds like you are doing a whole whole lot, which is exciting, but all very relevant things. I'm loving this postpartum vibe, so tell me a little bit about where your focus is at these days or what you're focusing on right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would say I've been working with a lot of women both in postpartum and some perimenopause, because that tends to happen with the women that I've worked with. They're usually moms that are becoming moms a little bit later in life, so they're experiencing this like postpartum experience and then, not too shortly after, edging into perimenopause.
Speaker 1:That's not fair, not fair at all.
Speaker 2:No, it's not fair. And so, yeah, I think I'm kind of learning more about perimetopause as I go, just because that's the needs of the clients that I'm serving. But most of the training that I've gotten formally is in postpartum work. But historically I've been working with women with like eating disorders and anxiety and just trauma in general. I've been a therapist for 13 years, so this is kind of like the evolution of my work as a clinician.
Speaker 1:I love that. I mean, I feel like a lot of those things are tied together to or can exacerbate another, so it's like a great foundation to have with this kind of work and I feel like it's a very this very untalked about issue was becoming more talked about. But a lot of women that I've talked to I personally am not a mother, but I have, like everyone in my circle that I've talked to they have like their story and their experience and it's so different for all of them. But I feel like a lot of people feel blindsided and this kind of stuff helps with that. So I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So tell me a little bit about what inspired your journey to this postpartum work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, as I mentioned, I've been a therapist for 13 years and when I had my child, I think it was like on year 11. So she's not too old yet, it's only 19 months. But I had a relatively smooth, emotionally speaking pregnancy, nothing like completely unexpected. And then, when I got into the postpartum phase, it was very unexpected and again like in my brain I was like, oh, like I know what to expect, like I'm a therapist, like I can manage these things. I know quote unquote all the coping skills there are, to know. Rationalizing to yourself here, exactly, and I was. There was a rude awakening, I guess.
Speaker 2:I was definitely not prepared for everything that I experienced emotionally in postpartum and it became very apparent to me that in my local community there wasn't a lot of people that I found through a simple Google search that were dedicated to this work.
Speaker 2:I found more like national organizations and like more resources on that like front, but or maybe resources for like a pelvic floor PT, which totally love them, that's needed, or like a lactation consultant or like a health coach that was focused on like the nutritional aspects, or you know, all of these other care providers which hats off to them, love that they exist. But as far as finding the therapist that focused on this, it felt a little lacking. And so I found Postpartum Support International in my desperation of looking for a provider and then kind of like learned everything that I needed to know through that. But I would say it felt I don't want to say too late, but I experienced a lot of my emotional turmoil personally, from like one month to like five months postpartum. It was like the most intense period for me and I had found Postpartum Support International like six months, in which was still helpful but, definitely not during the peak of my I would call it a quote unquote crisis.
Speaker 2:I wasn't in crisis, would call it a quote unquote crisis.
Speaker 1:I wasn't in crisis, but I felt emotionally like I was in crisis. So, as a mental health professional, what is that like? I mean, I've worked like before I became a critical care nurse. I worked in mental health like as, like you know, a tech and I worked a little bit as a nurse. So I feel, like you know, even I judge myself a little bit. It's hard sometimes. So, yeah, share a little bit about what that's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I already know this about myself going into postpartum, but I have a predisposition to be very anxious, worrying about things left and right. Health tends to be one of the many features of my anxiety. So the anxiety not just was about my health, but also my daughter's health, and so I would find myself fixated on like is she breathing? Like am I going to fall while holding her as I walk down the stairs? Is she eating enough? Is she sleeping enough? What is her brain development like? Is she meeting all of her milestones correctly?
Speaker 2:Like I just became I'm going to use the word obsessive about these things to a point where it was consuming most of my day, like doing research or like watching her or like talking to other people about what is your kid doing?
Speaker 2:Like is my kid behind?
Speaker 2:And I just really it was really all consuming for me, um, and I don't really think I could, like really take a deep breath until she was in daycare, and I know that might seem weird for some people, but it kind of felt like, oh, there's these other people that are going to help me, help her get reach her milestones, because these are trained professionals on, like, child development, like I don't need to become the expert in this anymore, because now I have these other care people like in my life that are going to help her like reach these milestones that I was so afraid that like I didn't know enough to help her reach, or I couldn't keep her healthy enough, or all these beliefs that I had about myself.
Speaker 2:So I really yeah, I got really wound up about that and that was like my experience and like, upon reflection, I was like, oh, it's a little obsessive, compulsive of me and my anxiety, I think, just like reached a different level than it is typically during that time yeah, do you think it was like the break of going like once you have a little break to like, have a little self-awareness of like, what's going on, or like having that like, oh, finally someone I can trust with them.
Speaker 1:So I take a little moment for myself and like, oh my god, things aren't right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that played a big part of it was having the break, having other people I could trust, like now part of what I would consider like my team and like my village, and then also, um, my breastfeeding journey became a little less intense. During that. I had what people would probably consider like an oversupply, and so I think the hormones that are involved in having, uh yeah, like a too much supply like contributed to a lot of these things again, so much that I learned afterwards, like I learned all of this in like month six of like oh, that's probably why, like I was experiencing all of this.
Speaker 2:But I yeah, I would go in my I'm getting into the weeds here but my baby like did not want to take a bottle. So I was like breastfeeding her almost like exclusively. Despite my best efforts of trying to get her to take a bottle, she would just like refuse. She's a very strong-willed little one.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's in the weeds, though. That's all part of it. You know what I mean, because there's the different kinds of kids, everyone's like that's part of it's balancing your unique little little creature you just made and also yourself and all this stuff going on. You know, like, yeah, there's so much involved. So did you have, um, what kind of support did you have, like postpartum? I guess yeah, did you have a lot of support and it just didn't feel like enough? Or did you have less support, or that's a good question.
Speaker 2:I think I had support, but maybe I isolated myself almost and it was like no one knows the whole story, Like no one knows the whole truth, because like I'm with this baby 24 hours a day and like, oh, they could say like, oh, Stephanie, you should do this, or oh, Stephanie, you should do that, and like my brain like could not accept that information. Because what ended up happening, too, is like everyone has different feedback, Everyone has different opinions, Everyone has different ideas, and I was like none of this is like the exact same. So how do I do this quote unquote right, If my mom is saying this, my mother-in-law saying this and the doctor saying this and Google saying this and my friend is saying this? I was like so overwhelmed with information that I then feel like I isolated myself to try to like get away from the noise, and I think that's kind of how I generally manage my anxiety, but I think in this moment it just was like more intense because of everything that was going on.
Speaker 2:I think if I had more physical support, I would have been able to get that break that I felt like I had during her going to daycare. I live across the country from my parents and my in-laws and most of my friends also live across the country. I have other people here physically, but they have their own lives and they weren't like necessarily coming over my house to like watch my baby. Nor do I think I maybe would have let them like, yeah, Like I don't know, like you know how much experience you have, your degree in child education, Like I found myself very protective. My partner was definitely around and helpful, but he had a full-time job and I was staying home for the first like four months. Um, I mean, don't even get me started on paternity and maternity leave in this country.
Speaker 2:It's like absolutely ridiculous Like, yeah, my husband had to use his sick time and all of his PTO to even like, take time off in the first month to help support us.
Speaker 1:And a lot of women have to do that too. You know what I mean. It's like everyone's using all their PTO and all their sick time just to try to bond with your new, your new little family member. It's not fair, yeah no.
Speaker 2:So, yes, I had support, but it wasn't in person physical support to that it would have been helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's hard to take advice, too, for people that aren't there, and then everyone wants to share their experience and you're like that's beautiful, but that's not exactly what I'm going through. Yeah, yes, so what was like the turning point? What's the point that? Like, split it for you? Yeah, if there was one.
Speaker 2:Well, I do think her going to daycare was helpful. And then really, when she started sleeping, I had read some like nonsense on the internet about I say nonsense now, but then I thought it was like the gospel about like child attachment. As a therapist, like having, like having attachment concerns was like high priority. And I read somewhere that, like children need one person to like really attach themselves to in order to have like secure attachment, which, looking back, I'm like there have been millennia that there have been multiple people around a child that they have been able to attach to in order to still develop secure attachment. But I had read something that as long as I have one person I think I read it as mean like I have to be this one person.
Speaker 1:Right, that's my job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is like my sole purpose right now is to be this like secure attachment figure um. And so I read that they needed that for like the first six months. So I felt like I couldn't give myself a break until then. So I think when that time had hit, I at six months, I was like, okay, now I can like take a deep breath. But if I were to redo it all over again, I was like, okay, now I can like take a deep breath. But if I were to redo it all over again, I would have like reminded myself that like, oh, they just need a secure attachment that doesn't necessarily need to be like me 100% of the time. Like it could also be my partner, it can also be a nanny, it could also be my brother, it could also be, you know, my sister. Like it doesn't need to be just me that she has a secure attachment with. But I think my brain and my panic like forgot basic information.
Speaker 1:That's so common, though. Like as a nurse, like I hear so many moms when they're in the ER with their little one, they're like I just can't like have so much appreciation for people who break it down for me, Like I'm not a nurse because I'm not in my nurse brain, like that's not what's going on in there, I'm in my mom brain and I don't not thinking like anything but that. So you know, yeah, yeah, it's scary, so scary, yes, so scary.
Speaker 2:And I and I don know I took all these classes to like prep for birth and like prep for like the first two weeks. And looking back, I keep like thinking to myself like if there was like a prep class of like how to be an attuned parent that was like available at the hospital Not that I had to go like digging for like on the internet, but like something that was widely available, that I wouldn't have to like again, I go back to like I just wasn't thinking about that, like I wasn't thinking about how I was going to experience postpartum. I was thinking about taking care of the baby, because that's what all of the classes and the books that were suggested to me were about. Like there was no real information suggested to me about how I was going to experience postpartum and what I might go through, and I think that would have been really helpful to be available prior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so. Is that what this workbook is about? This Becoming Mommy yes, so.
Speaker 2:Becoming Mommy is basically that, in that it helps women go through different exercises. Well, first realizing the importance of going through them is like the intro, but the exercises themselves are really set up to help women identify what their values are, how they want to show up, figure out who they want in their village and to go back to like expressing the importance of their village. It doesn't need to be just you to try to help moms get out of this like isolationist, like mindset that they might find themselves in. So, yeah, the workbook, I believe, has like some 20 exercises in it to really help women, like hopefully in a very like clear path, like get to a place where they feel like prepared to go through their own emotional journey in postpartum. So there's like very little information about taking care of a baby in there, cause that's not what this workbook was supposed to be about. It's about like taking care of you, like as the mom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be such a great gift for a mom too, like an expecting mom, cause I feel like it's just not something on many people's radars, like you said, because it's like we're programmed to think about the other things first, the baby first. Obviously, right, you're so hyper focused on that, but how wonderful, is there any? So I'm guessing you work with these women one-on-one quite a bit now. Women in postpartum is there typical things that you see? I know you said personally your anxiety is really high in general. So are there other typical things that you think women? I know you said personally your anxiety is really high in general. So are there other typical things that you think women experience? Cause I've heard of the like hovering, like I, if I take my eyes off them, something could happen. You know that kind of anxiety. But I feel like there's other manifestations in postpartum that women experience are typical too. Can you name some of those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think postpartum depression has the highest incidence of people being like experiencing that, and a lot of it has to do with like I'm not a good enough mother for this baby, or like I am incapable of taking care of this baby or someone else would be better off taking care of them than I am to take care of them. These are kind of like the things that you might hear someone in postpartum depression saying.
Speaker 1:Is it like an imposter syndrome, kind of exaggerated by hormones?
Speaker 2:Yes, I definitely think it is like a certain level of imposter syndrome that happens. And then there's this like grief or a loss that shows up around, like oh, my life is no longer the same. Like I'm different, my life is different. Like where is the old me?
Speaker 1:like yeah, like in an instant. There's a constant thing there that is on your mind, that will never be off your mind again yes, so there's like this huge transition that creates this like grief feeling oh yeah, for your old you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so much sense in your old life and your old relationship.
Speaker 2:Even like now, your partnership is no longer a partnership, like, like you're in a family dynamic and like so how do you shift? That becomes a big question that women tend to wrestle with and I think that can also, you know, create feelings of loss or grief because now they are not just you know, oh, this is my partner. Like, oh, this is the father of my child, or this is the you know wife, this is my partner. Like, oh, this is the father of my child or this is the you know wife of my child. Like, it happens both ways. Even a lot of men experience postpartum depression as well. It just manifests differently. I'm not an expert in that, but that does exist for women who are like why it makes sense, because that role changes too.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Their their role of the kind of attention they get and the kind of care they get, also because you don't have that kind of energy.
Speaker 2:Yes, so a woman's effort towards the man changes, but also their own effort towards themselves changes, just like it does with the women. Like now I have to take care of this other person. I can't just like go blow off steam and play video games or watch a sports game or go hang out with my buddies Like I now need to be here, like for this baby.
Speaker 1:So I think if both people are experiencing this huge life transition, which could again like the loss and grief I think is pretty common, and transitions at the same time are so hard in a relationship anyway, you know what I mean. We go through them one at a time. Yeah, exactly, oh gosh, okay, so I love this. This is great info. Um, what do you? Do you say, say the worst of it is typically the first five months after, or?
Speaker 2:I think it depends. So it's interesting fact that most women who experience postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety typically feel the most suicidal between months eight and ten interesting.
Speaker 1:Okay, that is very good to know.
Speaker 2:I think it really has a lot to do with at least this is.
Speaker 2:I don't want to like bash on research institutions, but there's not a lot of research into this. It's more of just like what they've found from experience. But I think if they did take time to research this, my anecdotal opinion is like in the first zero to eight months, like your baby needs you, like a lot, and at eight months they start becoming a little bit more independent, like they start crawling. Usually they start eating more solid foods. So I think what happens? Again, there's no research really diving deep into this. There should be. I don't know when that's going to happen.
Speaker 1:Hopefully there will be all the other women related issues under study.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I think there's this like kind of like with when people take antidepressants, right Like there's this phase where you're like in the deep of it and you can't, you're not even motivated to do anything, and then when you get on an antidepressant, usually the depression starts to lift and you have more energy, and then that can lead to more suicidal acts. And so I think the same sort of mechanism is happening here, of like why most suicidal ideations and acts in postpartum happen between eight to 10 months, because there is a energy like level that you're getting at that phase in postpartum.
Speaker 1:You're not just surviving anymore, you get a little space to think about what you're actually, how you feel, and it can hit hard, I would guess, especially if you cause. When you're in survival mode, you're not processing anything, you're just doing, yes, which you're lacking sleep so much. So you're definitely in survival mode. Oh yeah, well that's powerful to know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so to be like monitoring that for yourself, or if you know someone that's in postpartum, if you're a therapist that works with this or even any other provider, to just be more mindful that the risks of hurting themselves or committing suicide is between eight to 10 months.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's get into some of the advice you've got and the tips and what people should be looking for and how to support and all of that, because, yeah, I want to know now.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the first thing is like remembering that typical baby blues is really only the first two weeks. Like, if you're experiencing anxiety, depression, after that point, it is time to seek like additional support. Like I think people think that it's just normal to feel depressed or like normal to feel anxious I know that was part of my story um, like oh, this is just how it is. Like yes, that can be quote, unquote how it is, but that doesn't mean you need to do it alone. Like that means that you should seek out support, that you should go talk to a provider and reach out to those resources, because if it lasts longer than two weeks, it means it's like clinically significant enough to speak to someone, because at a clinical level, like usually only 20 to 30% of women like experience this past the first two weeks. So if you're a part of that, like there is support and there are professionals out there to help. So I just wanted to say that because I think normalizing that you need to reach out is helpful.
Speaker 2:Another thing that I think is really helpful to know is having other women in your corner that are going through something similar to you is really helpful.
Speaker 2:So finding community, whether that's like in a support group, whether that's in a mom group, that you find like just connecting with other women who are in the same phase of life as you, because I do think it's really difficult for someone who's not in the thick of it to one remember what it was like, because I've heard plenty of people say like oh, that was like five years ago, I don't even remember what it was like, I just blacked it out. Like that's not helpful for you when you're in it. I mean, other women who are in similar spots as you could be really helpful. So, again, online support groups there's like mommy support groups kind of things, mommy support groups, therapy support groups. There's this organization called mommy's dad that I connected with. That is this woman who's really like a saint, who connects women with other women based on their due dates and their geographical location, and so you can connect with other moms who are literally going through it at the time that you're going through it, without having to like leave your house.
Speaker 1:Oh genius, what's her name? Her?
Speaker 2:name. Oh my goodness, I'm horrible at remembering.
Speaker 1:It's okay, we can look at it later.
Speaker 2:Her group is called MAMISTAD. It's M-A-M-I-S-T-A-D, so that's great. Postpartum Support International also does groups that are free that you can join, and they have local chapters that you can be a part of. So, yeah, I think that's. Another really big thing that I wanted to share is like you don't have to go through this like alone, and I love that you said that every episode it comes up and people that listen to this are like, oh, here it comes.
Speaker 1:But like women healing community, I say all the time like we need each other to validate each other because we don't validate ourselves, so we have to share our stories and hear other people's and I love that this is so relevant in like everything we talk about, like birth, like especially birth right, because back in the day we probably did this surrounded by a lot more women with a lot more experience. It's a very like solo process now in our culture and I think that it's normal to be like feel alone and scared and sad Cause I think really traditionally women huddled around each other in these times and we don't have that anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and looking for other providers, I think also helps. Like in my experience, even just talking to other women, they're like oh, I didn't even know pelvic floor, like PT existed, like I didn't know that there were like sleep consultants that had like a variety of ideas, not just the cried out method.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like providers that speak to what you need, not just like what they think is best, is really important. So making sure that there is an alignment between you and your provider is super, super important. Just like I would say with a therapist like not every therapist is going to fit you. Like not every PT is going to fit you. Not every lactation consult is going to fit you. Like, do the hard work. Unfortunately, it's hard work to like find the right provider. Yes, settling for one is only going to lead you to feel more in misalignment with yourself and your values and your goals, and you don't have time for that as a mom to feel in misalignment with what you need.
Speaker 1:That's the best advice in every aspect of health. If a provider is not taking you seriously or somehow blows off what you say or bounces over you, that is not the one for you in any way. You need somebody that hears you when you talk and when you bring up a concern like addresses that, and if they don't there, that's not the one you need to be seeing straight up, yes, with your OB, with your therapist, with everybody, with your cardiologist, like all of them.
Speaker 1:So I love that you said that, cause that's great advice, and I don't think we feel a lot of people feel empowered to switch providers. We just think they're all that way and that's not true. They may be harder to find, but there are people who care and listen to you, and maybe it's just like a personality thing too. Maybe that provider listens to other people. You just need to find the one that listens to you.
Speaker 2:So but yeah, and if you're yeah, I was going to say if your provider like doesn't listen to you, like it's okay to say like hey, you're not actually hearing me, this is what I said. Like just because they're experts I'm using quotes for those that people that can't hear or see me experts like doesn't mean they're an expert in you. You're an expert in you. So advocating for what you need in that moment is super helpful. My workbook kind of talks about that too, of like different ways to approach providers when you feel unheard by them.
Speaker 1:But someone with you who does feel confident to like. I don't think that's weird at all If you have some mouthy nurse in your family, like me, and you want someone to go with you to feel like help. You ask questions Sometimes. I think that, like you know, that's also very appropriate. Maybe your husband's a little better asking questions than you, so you bring him along and have him back you up. Whatever it is. I think that's helpful too If you just need a little. Some of us have helped pushing back, so bring someone with you who will help you push back, if that's what you need, yeah.
Speaker 2:And having like clear expectations or clear ideas about what you want I think is helpful too, rather than just being like, oh, whatever happens happens like both in the delivery room and in the postpartum care. Like having an idea of what you want or having someone there that can help you like figure out what you want and advocate for you is really important. I love doulas for this. This reason, so I definitely encourage people to find one.
Speaker 1:Do you listen to? Something was wrong. That podcast you've ever heard.
Speaker 1:No, I don't this episode is about birth trauma, which don't listen to it. If you're like you know, don't listen to birth trauma if you're having a baby. But if you're post it and you need and you've had some kind of birth trauma, it's great to listen to. It's very validating. But one thing they stress in that a lot is like having someone with you who's there for you, like in your birth experience, because really when you go have a baby, it becomes about the baby A lot of it, which is great. That's what you want as a mom, right, but you need someone who's there for you and a lot of times a doula. They've been there a lot and they are dedicated to you. They're a great person to explain what's going on. That's normal art. No, that's not really normal. So that's a great person to have there for you.
Speaker 1:Cause a lot of people you go into healthcare. Even though I'm a nurse, I'm in healthcare all the time. I would have no idea what we're doing in OB. Whenever I've had OB patients, I like grab those nurses and I'm like help me, I don't know anything about this.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and there's postpartum doulas which, again, even in my being pregnant, I didn't realize that that was a thing like having someone there for your care in postpartum?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and now, like you were saying, you live across the country from your family I do too. I think that's so common too, where, like, it's not necessarily your mom and your mother-in-law can just drive right over. You know what I mean, and maybe they can, but still, can they drive over every day? Can they really be there? Are you really connected with them? There's so much at play there. You really have to find the support that works for you.
Speaker 2:Your in-laws or your mother lives in the same town. I'd also just want to give voice to people who are retiring later in life. Both my mom and my mother-in-law work full time, so even though they came to visit me and even though they're available for phone calls and texts like they couldn't be available for probably how much I wanted or needed someone of it, or how much they probably wanted to do honestly, yeah, that's true, exactly Right.
Speaker 2:So like having someone that's that's their job or their role to be a support to you is really helpful. So, even if you don't live across the country from your family, like getting that support is, I think, so important and like under valued potentially from like the perspective of like you don't know that you need it until you need it, sort of thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, I see that a ton. So is there any other kind of advice for you? Have women going into this to help them prepare? I know this workbook is great and honestly I think it's a great gift for anyone. You guys know people have a baby, so it's a great gift. But what other advice would you give for women? Or maybe, like I kind of want to say, like you I know you said past the first two to four weeks, but other signs maybe to identify in themselves that maybe you need to reach out and ask for a little help, Because you know I'm one of those people I'm usually like so deep in it before I realized, like what did I do? I buried myself.
Speaker 2:Well, I do think it's important to say that if you've already have a predisposition to have mental health issues like, you're probably going to experience that in postpartum. So just be aware of that and maybe seek out support beforehand or have a plan for your aftercare.
Speaker 1:Would you say sorry to interrupt you, but would you say it exacerbates for people, kind of, the struggles they already have. Or would you say, let some. There's things that are totally different as well.
Speaker 2:Or I think it. Yeah, well, both right. Like it exacerbates the situation. If you've already, if you already have anxiety, if you already have depression, you're going to be very likely to have that. I think it's some. I can't remember the stat because I don't have a brain for that necessarily, but their numbers don't stick.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, a lot of people even get diagnosed with bipolar disorder in postpartum. So even if you haven't previously been diagnosed with a mental health condition like, it can show up in postpartum because you're in the most like hormonally dysregulated, like moment in postpartum and unfortunately, people experience psychosis in postpartum that have never experienced psychosis before. So I just want to talk really briefly about this because I think people there's this fear that if I tell someone that I have mental health issues, that they're going to take my baby away from me. So I just wanted to voice that that there might be reservations to seek the support if you're concerned about that.
Speaker 2:But an educated provider is going to know the difference between I'm anxious that my baby's going to get hurt or I'm anxious that my baby is going, that I'm going to hurt my baby, compared to I want to hurt my baby right or like I'm going to do this to my baby. And even if you do feel like you want to do that, like if you have the wherewithal to say like I need help, like still get help, like they will probably put you in a place to get that help and you might, they might put your baby in the care of your partner or a family member during that time. But it's still better to get that help than to not, because I don't. Again, I don't want to get to the dark side of this too much, but, like so many women who experienced psychosis that end up hurting their baby, there's very little forgiveness in the courts for that, even though you're experiencing a psychotic break that you didn't plan for or anticipate or want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and do you think that I mean I would? I can only like guess to be what it would be like to be in that place, but I would guess that there's a lot of fear going on about reaching out, a lot of fear that's keeping, that's exacerbating it, but also like that's a really scary place to be to reach out to somebody and say like I mean, I had scary thoughts during burnout and telling someone that was like oh my god, the hurdle. That is the shame, the shame that comes with sharing that kind of stuff sometimes, even though it's totally normal.
Speaker 2:I think it's so normal. I haven't done any like research or read any research on this, but I think the amount of women that think to themselves like, especially late at night, when you're up and you've slept like maybe five hours of broken sleep, thinking to yourself like I can't do this or like someone else would be better off doing this Almost every woman that I've spoken to like has that thought Like that is just so common of an experience. So like just know that you're not alone. Like, if you have those feelings in the middle of the night, like it is brutal to have a physical trauma of giving birth, whether you delivered vaginally or through a C-section, that's a physical trauma of giving birth, whether you delivered vaginally or through a C-section, that's a physical trauma. And then you immediately go into a perimenopausal state when you're breastfeeding. So you have like way less estrogen, way less progesterone in your body that normally help regulate your mood.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, the rage. The rage, yes, also super common. So you go into a perimetopausal state during the time that you're breastfeeding, the entire time, and then you also experience sleep deprivation. So now you've had a physical trauma, sleep deprivation, and you're in a perimetopausal state if you're breastfeeding, feeding, so the likelihood that you're going to feel completely besides yourself, even if you don't have a preexisting mental health condition, is like I don't know, most people have a mental health condition because we live in this society and it has a lot of pressure and a lot of us are medicating for, for this, you know.
Speaker 1:So let's be honest, most people do that. So much pressure, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And so I just want to put the yeah and out there that like there's all of these contributing factors. People are like, oh, I thought I was going to be happy having a baby. I so I wanted to have a baby for so long, but this is like what my dreams were. And then they have this experience where, like holy cow, like my whole world feels turned upside down. Why?
Speaker 1:And I'm like, hey, it's normal, it's normal, it's normal.
Speaker 2:Let's look at everything that has just happened. Yeah, you've been sleep deprived, you are again in a perimenopausal state and your body just experienced a physical trauma. Yeah, like, have some grace have some patience, and that's best case scenario. That's best case scenario. Do you know what I mean? Yes, that's without experiencing a birth trauma or having your child born with like a chronic health condition or anything else in your life going on stressful too. You know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, like anything else. Oh my gosh, I love that you're doing this. Okay, so you work with people one-on-one in a counseling practice. You also have this workbook, and then I'm is this what you talk about in your podcast too?
Speaker 2:So my podcast does talk about this stuff, but there's also other people that come on and we've talked about just the transition that women go through during different phases of life. That's what kind of redefining us is about is like through each transition, whether it's a new job or having a baby or a new marriage or going through midlife or experiencing perimenopause, going through midlife or experiencing perimenopause like women and men. But the podcast is about women are going through transitions, like all of the time, and in each of these transitions we have to redefine, like what our values are, who we are, how we're going to show up for ourselves, for our community, for people in our lives, and so that's that's what redefining us is about.
Speaker 2:So we do have a lot of people on, just because it's a topic that I'm interested in right now is like postpartum, but my goal is to have people who are like experts in perimenopause or experts in going through a divorce and how women continue to redefine who they are through those like life transitions.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. I find like so that they say, like the age, that of your midlife crisis is like your forties, and that's also like a lot of my clients are in their like late thirties to fifties I would say women. But it's also the time where our values shift, like our hormones are shifting and we're shifting from like this, like trying to be, like present ourselves to the world and an achievement, to like we start valuing our peace and that a little more. And so I think I love that that you're focusing on transitions, because it's so powerful and that's like a lot of times how I, why I ended up seeing people, cause we're in this like powerful transition of life which also involves a lot of hormone shifts.
Speaker 2:So yes, yeah, I was actually listening to a podcast by the woman that wrote the pause Mary Claire. Again, I'm like horrible at names. I should really I can relate.
Speaker 1:I love this book. What was her name? Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, I was right, it's Dr Mary Claire, that's her handle on Instagram, but she wrote this book and she, in the podcast that I was listening to her share about, she was saying that a lot of women end up getting divorced in their fifties because their values and their hormones shift so much in the perimenopause menopause transition that they end up like wanting different things for their life than they did when they were maybe in their 20s and 30s when they got married, and that their partner just has not gone through the same hormonal shift that they did, which I thought was really interesting. Obviously, you can still get through your 50s and stay married if that's what you want to do.
Speaker 2:I don't think every marriage ends in, you know, divorce because of perimenopause or menopause. But I do think like yeah, women are going through transitions all the time and like honoring that for yourself is really important.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, my husband and I. It's funny because I've been perimenopausal Anyone who listens to the show knows like hardcore I just I'm ending this job, I'm transitioning to new one, but I've been doing like 18 hour days for the past year, so it makes that so much worse, like so much worse. That's the reason why I'm like I'm out of this, I can't handle it anymore, I'm gonna kill somebody. But my husband is so funny Cause there's days I it's not funny in the moment at all, it's funny but I wake up and like I'm a nurse I've been a caregiver my entire life Like I care. My husband's like I, you know, probably gets a little more caregiving than some other women, cause that's just who I am. But there are days when I wake up and I don't want to care for anything not a single other person and then there's a part of and I realized it's hormones. So it's like, okay, this is going to shift in a few days.
Speaker 1:But I can't understand the person I've been most of my life Like why would I do? Why do I do all this? It's so exhausting to think about, it gets me a little down and I'll get pissed at him over things I normally don't and he's like, oh my God, I'm like it's not like these things aren't valid. Okay, they're very valid. It's just normally I have like a higher threshold for it. You know, I'm not acting crazy. I just feel very differently about them right now. It's like poor you, I'm so sorry, but it's true. It's like it's so crazy how hormones play such an effect on that nurturing feeling, because to me it's just such a shock that it can actually be gone sometimes too. And I'm like oh well, that's an empowering feeling to not feel like you need to take care of people.
Speaker 2:Well, historically, women go, after going through menopause, like no longer were the caregivers of the community, but they were seen as like wise members of the community, and so people would go to them for their knowledge and like their expertise, not necessarily for their like caregiving capabilities that was usually reserved for like younger women in the community. So I just wanted to validate, like, of course, like your brain, why am I still caregiving? That's not what, like biology says that my body and my brain should be using its resources. For now, like now is my time to like bestow my knowledge and wisdom on others and be more in a teacher like protector role and not a caregiving role.
Speaker 1:So oh my gosh, I love that you said that I've I just recently got like a leadership job in healthcare Cause I'm like, well, I'm going to try to make a difference in this way, because that's how I feel. I feel like I'm ready to like be, you know, not the one doing the caregiving, but the one making the change so it gets better, which is like, so that's all fit so well. So thanks for that.
Speaker 2:yeah, of course yeah, I think it's really important to look at like, where we've been compared to where we are now, because, like, clearly there's wisdom, and like how communities and tribes existed for years before the internet, like how do you think they survived?
Speaker 1:yeah, I used to read, get so into. I can't remember who wrote them ishmael, do you ever read that book back in the day? No, it's about how a lot of how we evolve from tribal things are like hung over in our culture. Maybe some of the holdups we have it's. It's really interesting. I love that perspective, but anyway, okay. So let's say, if women are like struggling with this, they're hearing you or say like, um, some of those things, and they're like, oh my God, that's my daughter-in-law. What do you suggest that they do? Where, where do they start? How can they support people?
Speaker 2:or how can they support? Yeah, I think it's important to come from a place of like, empathy and understanding, and not a place of like you need this, or like an accusement, accusing judgment.
Speaker 1:Watch out for the rage. Yeah, yeah, because, watch out for the rage.
Speaker 2:I do think it starts with like you know what? Like I really want to support you. How can I support you? Have them share with you what they think, first, and then, like, provide suggestions or resources. Like hey, I heard this podcast. Or hey, there's this postpartum support international. Or hey, there's these resources. Because I think, just coming at it with, like you should do this, like in general, not just in postpartum, but people aren't going to listen to that. So, asking what they think they need first and then providing resources and support, I think is a great way to try to approach helping someone in this place and for women who are in it and struggling, just like what would you say to them?
Speaker 1:just reach out, ask for help. What?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, you're not alone. First of all, because I think that's super helpful and you're not crazy. You're not alone. First of all, because I think that's super helpful and you're not crazy, you're not broken and like you can be a good mom and you can do the work, like the fact that you even care about being a good mom like already makes you a good mom. Yeah, you're there, you're already there.
Speaker 1:You're wearing yourself sick, you're there.
Speaker 2:So remember that. And yeah, like you can Google, you can reach out to me. I can hopefully help provide resources for you in your local area. Postpartum support international I can't speak their praises enough. That's an excellent organization based out of Oregon. Yeah, where?
Speaker 1:can they find your workbook? Where can they find your? Where do you live? Do you coach um as your therapy? Just like a restrictive right now only do therapy.
Speaker 2:I do have a redefining us community that I'm trying to get off the ground, that moving together like more women who are interested in talking about these types of things. So that is for anyone in the United States, not just those that are in Colorado, because that's where I have my therapy practice and that's where I'm licensed, in Colorado and in Florida.
Speaker 2:So you can't work with me one-on-one if you live in either of those States. But as far as just connecting in a community sense, I have my Redefining Us community that you can find on my website, wellmindedcounselingcom. I have my podcast, redefining Us, that's located on all major platforms. Again, you can also find that information on my website and my Instagram, and I have a YouTube channel, redefining Us, that shows all of the podcasts. My workbook is available on all major online retailers so you can find it anywhere from, like, bookshoporg to amazon, to barnes and noble to target, like. If you just get it, you can or search it online, you can have it shipped to your house I love that.
Speaker 1:That's perfect. Well, it's been so fun talking to you. I feel like I could ask you like a million questions, but it would be a little off base, so maybe we'll have you back another time to talk about some other aspects of all of this, but I loved it. Thanks so much for coming on. Is, oh, I want to ask you, I ask everyone this so um, what is your go-to so like?
Speaker 2:say you're like super stressed out, overwhelmed, shut down. What is your go-to self-care when things are like getting out of control that helps you like bring it in? Yeah, I am someone who really is fueled up by alone time. So if I can take time, even if it's like 15 to 20 minutes, to sit and do an activity, it depends, right, like I think sometimes I needed to sit down and do an activity. Sometimes I need to go for a walk. So those are probably the two things that I do, depending on my mood. If I'm like really overwhelmed and I need a quiet place, I just like to sit down and color like that might something a toddler might do.
Speaker 1:But like I do that too, I have a adult coloring book. Yeah, it helps me focus my thoughts sometimes because there's so much racing.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's like so, and you can't be anxious when you're being creative, because it actually is using the same part of your brain, so you can't be anxious while you create. So, if you're anxious, try to sit down and create something, because you just can't do both at the same time and create something, because you just can't do both at the same time.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. That's great advice. Okay, well, I think that's it.
Speaker 2:Is there anything you want to leave us with? Yeah, I just want more people to care about their own experience in postpartum and for not just the moms to care about it but the society, because, like, we're doing something so significant like raising the next generation of humans and like if we don't care about that, like what? How could we possibly care about anything else? Is my opinion. But yeah, like you have to take care of the moms because they're the backbone of society, so taking care of you is really important.
Speaker 1:I love that You're highlighting such a great issue too is like there's a lot of very understudied things about women's health and women's hormone shifts throughout life during pregnancy, after pregnancy, normal shifts that come throughout just life. It's very understudied and um, and we deserve it. We deserve to know a little more. So I love that one of the people are like pushing this and providing support. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yes, of course, and thank you so much to all of your listeners. I really appreciate you giving me the platform to speak to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well thanks.
