The Power of Witnessing Your Story: Art, Healing & Soul Portraits | Devorah Brinckerhoff

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep101

What if healing didn’t require fixing, analysing, or reliving your pain, but simply witnessing your story with compassion?

In this powerful conversation, I’m joined by professional artist and creative healer Devorah Brinckerhoff, whose life journey led her to create the Soul Portrait process, a deeply intuitive form of healing through art and creativity that supports emotional release, trauma healing, and soul connection. Together, we explore how soulful creativity allows us to witness our stories without becoming trapped inside them, and how self-witnessing becomes a gateway to inner freedom, empowerment, and deep healing.

In This Episode, You’ll Discover:

• How Devorah’s healing journey gave birth to the Soul Portrait process
• Why witnessing your story is more powerful than trying to fix or analyse it
• How healing through art and creativity supports emotional release and self-trust
• The role of intuitive art-making in spiritual awakening for midlife women
• Why you don’t need artistic skill to heal through creativity
• How soulful creativity reconnects you with your inner truth

Key Takeaways:

• Healing through art and creativity allows emotional energy to move gently and safely
• Self-witnessing is a powerful act of transformation
• Creativity reconnects us with soul truth beyond words
• Trauma can become a gateway to spiritual awakening and empowerment
• Soul-led creativity restores self-trust and emotional healing

Reflection Question:

What part of your story is asking to be witnessed, honoured, and gently released through creativity right now?

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep101

Transcript

eP 101 Devorah Brinckerhoff

[00:00:00]

So today I have Devorah Brinkerhoff with me. Devorah is a professional artist of over 30 years as a way to process her own trauma. She created soul portraits and mixed media creative healing practice. That uses personal materials like letters, photographs, and journal pages as a way to transform and heal past wounds.

Working from her Oregon studio, she creates commissioned soul portraits and also teaches others the process through online and in-person coaching and workshops, guiding people to transform traumatic experiences, release old stories, and remember who they are beneath conditioning and performance. So welcome Devorah.

Thanks so much for having me, Sam. So let's just start with your story. Tell us about your journey, um, when you first started making art and what led you to, um, your work with Soul Portraits. There wasn't really a time when I wasn't making art. It was definitely my first language. It, it [00:01:00] came much more easily and fluidly than anything else.

Um, so always drawing, painting, exploring different mediums and, uh. So I didn't realize for a very long time that it, it had been acting as like a way for me to tell my story. Like I didn't even know what my story was, let alone tell it. So, but all along it was that kind of a release valve. Mm-hmm. And would diffuse stuck places in me that I, I wasn't even conscious of being there.

Mm-hmm. And so I, I was lucky enough to go to art school and start on the, the sort of typical art path and go into galleries and, uh, and just have that on rinse and repeat. And, you know, first you, it takes a minute to get into one gallery, and then you [00:02:00] want more galleries, and then you want across the nation, and then you want across the pond.

So they say, and, and really it was, it's, it was never enough. It never actually mm-hmm. Satisfied anything. And like, it felt good in the moment. Like, shows were really fun, they can be fun, but it's also a persona. And, uh, I wanted something much. I really liked connecting at a deep level with people who resonated with my work.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And certainly showed up on, during an opening, but they really showed up during studio walks and, um, open studios. And so just anybody could come in and people who, who resonated with my work would end up staying for hours. And people where my work made them really uncomfortable, they would just.

Turn tail and, and like run as fast as they could out of my studio. So I, I've encountered all, all, mm-hmm. And everything in between. Um, in terms of my own conscious awareness, I really, [00:03:00] even though it was always working for me, I did not become aware of it until my life fell apart. Okay. And then it, it became very clear to me what was happening in my studio.

Isn't that interesting? Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what led you to the soul portraits piece as well. Yeah. So, yeah. So tell us a bit about the journey then, in terms of how your life fell apart and how you realized and connected all those pieces together. So, and I'd back up just a little bit too. In, in with, with shows and getting ready for shows, there, there is this momentum around creating work and getting into a rhythm.

And I think I was listening to another episode of yours where, where you were talking with a guest and there was, you were talking about the discipline of showing up and, and, and being in the creative act or atmosphere and just. Continually putting the reps in and seeing what happens, and I was never good at [00:04:00] creating work for other people like ever.

Okay. Even if were like, I really love this, can you make another one? I'd be like. I am not sure. Like I genuinely don't know if I can because it never, yeah. It wasn't, it didn't come from that place, it came from another place and mm-hmm. Uh, and that to me really became what I later understood as what we're all capable of tapping into.

Mm-hmm. And this other energy of, of creativity, which is within all of us. So, um. So my world fell apart. Um, I, I, we had discovered that our children had were being sexually abused. And this was a, this was a like a over three year period of time and I had just kind of was like closing in the, the closing gap of my own.

History of sexual abuse. Um, so [00:05:00] I had spent years in therapy and all of a sudden my children were showing signs that were alarming. And I was like, no, this cannot really be happening. And as we discovered who it was, and, and we really tried. Hard to deny who it was and to not, like my vow was, I can't do to myself.

Mm-hmm. What, like, to my kids, what I did to myself, I, I wasn't gonna suppress their experience in letting the family know. Um, it was my, it gets a little confusing, so my husband's father's second wife's child was, we believe Okay, what. Molesting our children, two of them. Um, and when we finally like really put the pieces together and got the courage up to say, Hey.

This is what's happening. This is what we'd like to do about it. Are you on board? [00:06:00] Yes. We wanna support you in this. We wanna support him in this. It's all gonna be okay. Within 24 hours, they called everyone we knew and said, this is what you're going to hear. It's a lie. In fact, you know, yada, yada, yada, uh, and that my father-in-law called up my father and said, you'll never believe what your daughter's been saying about you.

Here it is. She told me this years ago, and. You should know, would you like to join a lawsuit? Um, because I had told my husband and his family that I believe that my own perpetrator was my father, but I didn't tell my father that because I didn't think that would go over very well. Mm-hmm. It didn't. So they joined a lawsuit for grandparent rights and within 24 hours we lost every single family member, cousin, aunt, uncle.

In-laws, parents, sisters, brothers, everything. Um, and a letter of excommunication from me, from my family. And I was [00:07:00] just devastated because I really loved my family and I was an unhappy kid, but I loved my family. I didn't, I didn't, I, I had a complicated relationship with my mother and if anybody sort of came under scrutiny, it was her.

Um, and at the same time, she just was more vocal about their shared. Values and beliefs, and, and again, she was just a recipient of those same values and beliefs from her parents and, and we're just a change. Right? Yeah. So I was sitting in my studio with all of these love letters and hate letters and family photographs and legal papers, and I was ripping them up.

I didn't know what else to do. I just started ripping them up and gluing them down in pieces on a canvas. In about four hours into this process, I stood back and I, I was like, what is happening? I, I'm disassembling and reassembling my story, my [00:08:00] identity. The this version of myself and I feel like a different, right?

I'm not the same person that received those letters. I'm not the same person that was excommunicated. I'm not the same person in that photograph from 20 years ago. Like I'm not the same person that I was five minutes ago, and that just totally blew up. My idea of what it means to be who I am and my identity.

Mm-hmm. And it was, uh, the first taste of freedom I'd ever really experienced. And so I did that for years for my own self. I just did soul portrait after soul portrait, and I didn't call them that in the beginning. I was just in my studio and, and doing mixed media work. And I used it whenever I needed.

And, and layer upon layer of myself just fell away. Mm. So is there, are there particular components then, I mean, that's such a powerful story, first of all, like wow. Um, but [00:09:00] are there particular components that really, you know, um, make up a soul portrait for you? Like, um, specific ingredients, if you like, that you feel are really necessary as part of the process?

Or is it an anything goes type of thing? Well, I think when people are really struggling with something, like I was really struggling and, um, I did not feel good about myself. I had struggled my entire life with, um, self-esteem and anxiety mm-hmm. And depression and uh, and so I used it to really question what I thought I was and who I thought I needed to be and.

Um, so when people do this process, the question is, is there a pivotal time in your life, an experience that you've had that that really changed the trajectory of who you know yourself to be today? Mm-hmm. So. Whatev, whatever that is. 'cause people usually have like a [00:10:00] really specific, like several specific times ex lived experiences that they feel very impacted by.

Mm-hmm. For better or for worse. Like it can be positive and wonderful. The people who tend to work with me. It's not, it's the darker stuff. And yeah, I'm comfortable with the dark stuff. So I think everyone like is able to exhale and be like, okay, my grief, my loss, my anger, my rage, my yeah, my, my pain is safe here to be seen and heard and held.

Um, so whatever it is, it's very unique to Whoev, to whatever your lived experience is. Wow. So I guess there's two parts to this then. So there's, um, your personal kind of, um, approach to, so soul portraits that you create, um, and then there's the kind of the workshop style stuff that you take other people through.

So focusing on you [00:11:00] just for a second. So, um. How does your, how did the Soul portraits time with your professional work? Like are you just doing soul portrait commissions now, or are you also creating other art that fits within that genre? Just to understand the complexity of it. So there are, I am, uh, I'm always.

Doing something. So whether it's drawing or doodling or exer, just creative exercises. 'cause it's a way for me to connect to myself. Mm-hmm. So it's very automatic. Um, it's something that I, I crave, but also as I've opened this up and, and really it's only in the last. Six plus years that I really started to work with the public.

Yeah. So inviting people into my studio and doing commissions if I'm doing a commission and typically commissions are are pretty intense, so they can be really. Easy, sort [00:12:00] of lighter when somebody's like, well, my husband is this neurosurgeon and I love his. Like, I want you to go through this incredible medical, you know, stack of information journals.

Um, and I love my children's drawings and I'm partial to like, uh. 1920s image of the spinal cord. So that was somebody's idea of, of, of a soul portrait for a very, so their, their family had a story and it, it had elements of all of them in that story. Mm-hmm. And then the Oprah image. Was what they wanted, right?

Mm-hmm. So it could be abstract with this kind of palette, but they knew my style and so we would work together in that way. So that's an example of a li of a, like a lighter, easier kind of commission. Other examples are, um, so somebody's lived experience of being a, a, a soldier in Vietnam. And like I did a [00:13:00] portrait, his portrait over COVID, and he just sent me material after material after material of, of things that he had written.

And he happened to be just a beautiful writer and had a lot to say about. War in general and what it's like. Um, Vietnam is pretty complicated in the sense that. That, uh, they, when they came home, they were really demonized. Mm-hmm. And even while they were there, there was a lot of conflict around it. And yet they, they were puppets for other people's agenda.

And he was very, very good at his job as a soldier. And he was an artillery man who I don't like, calculated where bombs would land. And so felt. Very responsible for death and a lot of death. Mm-hmm. And so, on the one hand, he was rewarded for doing his job well, and on the other hand, he didn't know how to, um, like regulate that experience.

And he had done a [00:14:00] ton of work, um, in, in that for himself. So it was such a privilege to make his portrait. Um. And what I can say is that it was also really intense.

It was such a, it was a beautiful experience for me. And afterwards I just did like an oil painting, no media, just a straight up classic oil painting, and kind of like released whatever residual energy I had been carried. That's so powerful. Wow. I love that. That was kind of the ebb and flow. So I'll immerse myself in somebody else's energy.

Yeah. I get images that are channeled. I follow the information of their material and I witness it with love. Like my whole thing is to show up as such an open heart so that people know that whatever they feel is unforgivable. 'cause we're our own [00:15:00] worst enemy with that. I did not know how to love myself, and I did not know how to forgive myself.

And once I had some practice with doing that, it's so easy to show up without judgment for others and to know that they were all doing the best we can. And so whatever it is. So the other, the other big one, um, is death by suicide. So. People who have that experience and they don't know how to hold their own, like their daughter's materials, uh, because they feel so much responsibility and guilt over what happened.

I hold those materials and I, and I witness them with that compassion and, and love and, and show a way to just hold space for the really challenging lived experiences that, that we have. So. After those kinds of soul portrait experiences of creating them for [00:16:00] someone, then I do, then I do just at my own.

And it might be a few paintings, I'm assuming, like rather than just one. Yeah. You kind of feel, you feel it when it's done right? Yeah. Like, so if it's, if there's something holding on, I also like to jump on a tra on a trampoline. Um, it's just getting okay. It's all, it's just all energy, right? So it's, yeah.

Getting is moving that energy out of the body. It's such a powerful process though. I mean, you know, just, I feel like you, um. How, you know, there's an honesty and a bravery, and a vulnerability to following a process like that because it can't be about like, um, commercial gain, like the gallery experience.

Do you know what I mean? Like that's why the gallery experience, you're talking about it and it's, there's a superficial kind of aspect to it, isn't there? And a factory kind of aspect to it, you know, where you're churning stuff out for, for others. Whereas this is just [00:17:00] very pure. It feels very pure. Yeah.

Yeah. Beautiful. It, my motivation to be with people in, in the most genuine way because even during an opening, right, I'm, I, I was pretending to be somebody I wasn't. Right? Like you get all dressed up, you have your nice glass of wine, you're all fun and just like, yes, that is part of me, but. Yeah. There are so many layers to all of us, and I'm really, so that dark time in my life where I just wasn't sure I would ever survive it.

Yeah. Became the gateway to my most meaningful. Life's purpose. Like I just love it. And, and do you think that's because you didn't have a choice anymore, right? You had to face it and it was like, it's almost like a surrender, right? You just didn't have a choice anymore. Yeah. And this is where it took you, what a beautiful place, right?

Yeah. I never would've done it otherwise. It was way too scary to, and so I get it when people have resistance to what I'm doing. A [00:18:00] lot of people do come to the workshop, but it's kind of a self, um. Selecting process. So if you're not ready, you won't wanna come. Yes. If you're, if you do wanna come, then, then you're ready for what?

What wants to emerge? And I guess like, I feel like because it's such a deep, um, almost spiritual kind of offering, um, that people are going to find you quite naturally. Like it's not something that you are, I'm guess guessing heavily marketing or, you know, talking about on a grand scale because actually, you know, these people are going to find you, um, because it's what they need.

Yeah. So that's, that's super powerful. So. Um, back to kind of, you know, the work that you're creating for others then, um, you know, how do you hope that a collector or you know, somebody who's commissioned, um, a portrait, how do you hope that they, [00:19:00] um, engage or connect with the work and, you know, what's your intention for their experience?

So I really feel like whether it's a soul portrait or a painting mm-hmm. Um, whatever it is, I've always believed that if you are responding to it, there is something coming alive in the viewer. Yeah. Like if, if you're getting an emotional response, something is wanting to wake up inside of you or wants to be seen or heard.

Um, and so when people. Uh, either by, by a painting that's already been completed or commissioned me to make one that's specific to their story. It's kind of the same because it's still their story. Something that's waking up is their story. It's, it's in them. And so I want people to feel seen. I want people to feel invited to see themselves and to know that they have everything they need inside of [00:20:00] them.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I really just want people to, to realize the, their own beauty. Their own, yeah. Magic inside. That's wonderful. That's so beautiful. Um. So tell us a bit about the process then, that you teach other people, because I'm assuming that, you know, what you do is not necessarily exactly how you, um, share, um, these soul portrait techniques with other people.

So, um, yeah. How, how does that sort of work? The technique itself is super simple, right? Mm-hmm. Like any kindergartner. Gardener can do it. It's like ripping and gluing and schmearing paint around, um, and stick figures. It doesn't, it doesn't matter at all. And one of the other sort of side bonuses to this is that I love disrupting what people think of as.

As like, good art, not mm-hmm. Like, what, what is that? Mm-hmm. And who gets to decide what goes on a wall? If [00:21:00] you love it, then that's good art. If you made it, then you're an artist. Mm-hmm. And we, we get pigeonholed into people who are skilled versus those who aren't. And if you're not skilled, then you're, you can't be an artist.

And I just think that's ridiculous. Mm-hmm. So I definitely cannot sing, but. Like, I would never, ever, ever get, uh, invited to sing publicly, but it's fun to sing, right. So I don't wanna hold back just because it doesn't sound good, though I spent years doing that. So I like disrupting the idea of what it means to be creative.

Mm-hmm. Um, because I think it's such an essential, innate part of being human. So when people are coming to a workshop, the only thing they need to do ahead of time is gather their materials. So to answer that question of like, what is it, like, what are the materials that belong to those moments that change who [00:22:00] you knew yourself to be?

Yeah. Um, and sometimes people don't have tangible materials to go with it, but we live in such a day and age where we can get images of almost anything online. And. If it resonates, then it, it's a symbolic representation of that. Mm-hmm. So, and, and it's about following your intuition. Because that is where your power is.

It's inside of you. It's your intuition. That's creativity gets me there. So for people who, who like or just want to invite more creativity into their lives, it's a, it's a workshop that just gets them mm-hmm. Out of their head and into their heart mm-hmm. And connecting with themselves. In a, in a very tangible, hands-on way.

Mm. And it, it represents all the layers. And we're, we're messy, right? Like it's messy. Being alive is messy and, and it's letting that be okay. Mm-hmm. So. When people come to a workshop, they get to [00:23:00] practice all of those things. Mm-hmm. Listening to their intuition, really allowing for any messiness, being with whatever shows up and anchoring like, so there's a past, a present of anchoring who you are now, and then inviting the future.

You know, you wanna step. So I am guessing that some people find it harder to relax into that process than others, you know? What are the typical blocks or challenges that people face when they're sitting down to do this kind of work with you? Well, usually if they're people who believe they're not artistic or can't do it, they just don't, they never sign up.

But yeah. But people, people like are like, but this sounds fun. And I'm like, then great. Just come right. Just come and anyone can really, anyone can do it. Mm-hmm. Um, so the block is, I'm not creative and I am always like, we're all creative. And it might not be like, this might not be your go-to. It could be gardening or, [00:24:00] or cooking or dancing or listening to music or making music.

And, but most of the people who come have just really, really like this idea. Mm-hmm. That it is not difficult. Like, so once they're there, they just, they get out. It just, they naturally just are like, wow, this was so fun. It was so easy. It turns off your mind. They just get in, they get into it and all of a sudden three hours are gone and they're like, whoa, what just happened?

low pressure? Yeah. Yeah. There the, the. The work too, sort of provides insights because you're not thinking about it. Yeah. So, and that's really fun when people notice things and they're like, oh wow, I can't believe this ended up in, in the piece. It's in this particular spot next to this other thing. And people can start making meaning.

Mm-hmm. From it. And so [00:25:00] what sort of transformation do you hope that people get from, you know, creating their own soul portraits? So the transformation that people get is, is that awareness that they're not their lived experience. Mm-hmm. So when they're holding materials from their past, or even materials that represent a part of their past, they're like, I am not this person anymore.

I'm not the one who walked down the aisle. I'm not the one who killed someone. I'm not the one who Right. I am no longer the one who had that experience or who lost a family member or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. They, there's no way they can hold that piece of paper and feel like they're the same person. It's within us, but they're not the same person.

And so it's, it's a way of witnessing without reliving, um, yeah. Which, and releasing too. Right. Yeah, 100%. When you witness something, it doesn't want to, it doesn't, it doesn't stick around. It wants [00:26:00] to move. Right. It's, we, we hang onto it. Yeah. And that energy, we get stuck with that energy and my cat is showing up.

It's okay. Hello. Um, and so yeah, we get to make the meanings right, so we, we can rewrite the story or reframe the story or let go of the story. Um, yeah. We make the meaning of our life. Um, so yeah, that's, that's super powerful. So why do you believe then that the creative process is so powerful in supporting this healing and transformation?

Because it is nonverbal, because I mean, it can be, there are plenty of people who are writers and they really get to themselves through writing. Mm-hmm. And there's certainly an element of that that works for me. But we can think and think, and think and think, and we just keep certain feelings alive. But this process really, the creative process lets us move what we can't [00:27:00] always articulate and or.

Should be articulated, right? Mm-hmm. Because experience, experience lives in our body and, um, and so that being able to witness it there allows that energy to move and people feel such a sense of, um, freedom and empowerment. So because they're, they've. And, and two, because they are there, there's a lot of fear, right?

The anticipation of feeling these feelings is so much worse than actually feeling them. Mm. Mm-hmm. And so after someone has done something that they're really afraid of and they've done it anyhow, that's really empowering. They're like, wait a second, I can totally do hard things. I did this and it wasn't even nearly as hard as I thought it was.

Mm-hmm. What else can I do? So it opens up this. [00:28:00] Door that says, I am powerful. And so many of the people I work with feel very disempowered and very stuck in sort of a victim mentality. Mm-hmm. And when people start getting a taste of what it's like to not be in that role, it's, it's, it's freedom. Yeah. So creativity for me is the doorway for that.

It's the doorway for self-empowerment to connect to our own wisdom and divinity and, um. To tap into something much bigger than what we've been taught. Right. It's all what we've been taught. Yes. Yeah. That was my next question actually. Is it is, is it a spiritual experience? Um, yeah. I never would've thought so.

I mean, I was raised in a household where religion was really not, uh. Relished and spirituality was just like a silly thing. Like really woo woo. And so I've sort of had to come out of the spiritual closet and be like, yeah, I [00:29:00] believe in, I believe in the universe. And yeah, I hope I'm talking. Yeah. Well that's the thing.

I mean, I think as well, we put so many labels on our experiences, right? Like we were talking about before. And, um, when we remove the, the need for words and we just. Let it flow through. Um, you know, it is a spiritual experience and that's, you know, where the healing lies, right. Um, in allowing it just to come out and to flow whoever it wants to onto the page or the canvas or whatever.

So yeah. Pretty cool. Really cool. Um.

So for all the women who were curious about healing and empowerment through art, what powerful message or question would you like to leave them with today? Well, they are in for a really awesome, fun ride, and I hope they, I hope they open that door and jump right in. It's so. It's such a great way to get to know who you [00:30:00] are, and it's such a nice thing to be able to do for yourself.

Like you don't need anyone else. You don't need me, you don't need me to witness your story. You need you to witness your story and it's more than enough. It's what you're every part of. It's been craving. And so to be able to say, well, I can dedicate that time to myself for an hour or half an hour or three hours or however long, or every day, or every once a week, a way to get to know yourself and, and you can do it like yourself.

Um, so I think it's a, it's a practice that builds on its own momentum. Mm-hmm. Of empowerment and of feeling good and reinforces our own sovereignty and independence. Um, and it's internal. So that external validation really falls away and you're like, wow, I'm unstoppable. [00:31:00] And it, it's, um, it's nice, right? I mean.

I, it sort of blows the idea away that you need a partner or somebody like a soul twin flame or any of that stuff. Like we've just, we need to be our own twin flame. We need to, right. And, and really, um, those places that we are afraid to share with other people, you don't have to, you just have to share it with yourself.

So shame and guilt, um mm-hmm. Just need to you to see them and. I don't have to, we don't have to have confession or have to have a therapist who understands because really we're the only one who can truly, truly understand. So it's just, in that sense, it's just so incredibly empowering. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Beautiful. And the, the witnessing self witnessing is, it's huge. Yeah. I, I really believe in that. I feel like that's probably the most empowering part and taking the time to like, honor what you've created and just really sitting [00:32:00] with it. And, um. Going back to it and, you know, just, um, honoring it in that way I think is, is a huge part of the, um, creative process and, you know, going on the journey.

Yeah. So people, yeah. People, I was just gonna say that people are like, oh, I'm gonna hate this. And oftentimes, and I, they're like, I'm never gonna put this up. And I'm like, great. You don't ever have to put it up. You can rip it, you can throw it away, you can burn it. And some people do all of those things and, but they're so glad that they did it.

And they, and more often than not, people frame it and put it in a central place in their home and it's a reminder of their power. Mm. Because there's always beauty in it, right? If it's come from the soul or come from this, you know, um, the, these, your life experiences, you know, um, it's always gonna have beauty in it.

Um, and, you know, I. Whether it's only beautiful to you, it doesn't matter, right? Because it's got beauty in it. [00:33:00] Even better if it's only beautiful to you. Yeah. And like, and five-year-old who's made a drawing, like they love their drawing, we love drawing, right? Mm-hmm. So it's that feeling in all of us. It's like, wow, I made this.

I'm not a great cook, but when I spend time cooking, I'm like. Wow. I made dinner so good. So how can people get to know you better Devorah and get a real feel for the work and your beautiful paintings? Um, Instagram and TikTok and Facebook. Um, I have LinkedIn, but I'm not very active on there and anybody can DM me anytime and on social media.

I, I occasionally, um. Promote an online workshop. Okay. Uh, it's more in person and word of mouth, but uh, yeah. So I'm not hard to reach. I'm pretty much anywhere. If you just Google my name, it'll show up. Soul Portraits. Anything with Soul Portraits? Well, there's a lot out there on Soul [00:34:00] Portraits. Hmm. Which is cool.

I'm so glad that people are. That's a rising. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. It's so exciting. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming and chatting with me today, Devorah. I loved our conversation. Thank you. Me too. It was great to talk with you.