Changeology
The Changeology podcast explores the art, science, psychology, and philosophy behind making big, bold, badass life changes.
Inspiring. Empowering. A little weird.
Changeology
When It Keeps You Up at Night: How Sleep Training Became a Masterclass in Change
When It Keeps You Up at Night: How Sleep Training Became a Masterclass in Change
When you’re running on no sleep, even the smallest change can feel impossible. In this episode of Changeology, I’m joined by Sarah Smith, certified pediatric sleep consultant and founder of Swallowtail Sleep. Sarah helps families of children from newborn to age eight create evidence-based sleep plans tailored to each child’s physiology—and each parent’s sanity.
Sarah’s approach is rooted in empathy, data, and partnership. Our conversation isn’t just about sleep—it’s about how we navigate change when we’re exhausted, anxious, or grieving the version of parenthood we thought we’d have. We explore what sleep disruption can teach us about emotional regulation, trust, and the messy, nonlinear process of change.
If you’ve ever resisted change because it was inconvenient, questioned your instincts as a parent, or struggled to stay calm in the chaos, this one’s for you.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- Why even “good” change brings grief—and what to do with it
- How resistance shows up in parenting and what it really means
- Why disruption is data (and how to use it to guide your next step)
- The parallels between fitness, coaching, and sleep work
- The difference between boundaries and control—and how to hold them without guilt
Connect with Sarah:
The REAL Change Kickstart is a 45-day 1:1 coaching intensive designed to help you:
- Identify the behaviors keeping you stuck
- Unlearn what is no longer serving you
- Create new patterns that align with what you truly want
Interested in longer-term support for making a significant change? Send me a message at meg@megtrucano.com to get started.
Want to learn more about the art, science, philosophy, and psychology of making significant life changes? Sign up HERE for my weekly newsletter and have the Changeology podcast delivered straight into your inbox!
Connect with Meg:
Sarah Smith
@0:36 - Meg Trucano
Welcome to the Changeology Podcast, Sarah.
@0:43 - sarahsmith
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
@0:45 - Meg Trucano
Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm so grateful to get a chance to speak with you about your area of expertise, which is pediatric sleep.
@0:53 - sarahsmith
That's right.
@0:54 - Meg Trucano
Yeah, so for context, Sarah and I worked together when my twin toddlers were sleep. We were suffering so much at bedtime.
And, you know, frankly, my husband and I were as well. And we're talking like one to two hours of fighting just to get them in actual bed and negotiations and crying and stress and tears from everyone.
And a little less than one week after starting to work with Sarah and getting her individualized support, we now have a bedtime routine that works for us that we all look forward to.
And more importantly, it helps our little ones get the rest that they need. So eternally grateful to you. And my husband and I have reclaimed our evenings.
@1:37 - sarahsmith
That's so nice. That's a huge win. I feel like when people like sped into this of like getting sleep help, everyone wants better sleep, but these like unexpected wins of like more time with your partner, feeling like you're not losing your mind during the day when you're parenting, like, like, I don't know, time to do your nails in the evening, stuff like that, like things that people have reported.
@1:59 - Meg Trucano
I love them. Like. Being less stressed when you're leaving the house, things like that. Oh, my gosh. And it's just been an overall, like, game changer for us.
So I'm seriously forever grateful. But Sarah, I would like for you to tell us about your really interesting journey to pediatrics because you have a history and personal training.
@2:21 - sarahsmith
that right? I I graduated college with a degree in applied exercise physiology. I worked as an exercise physiologist in the Houston area for a physician.
And it's very cool, but very boring. You're doing the same thing every day. You don't create any kind of relationships with people because they're coming in for this one test, this one appointment.
And then they're out the door. And it just really wasn't what I was looking for. I'd always been very interested in the body and biomechanics.
So I got certified to be a personal trainer. I didn't like Houston very much. So I sent an application in for a personal training job in Austin and was just like, I'm going to move anyway and just see
So I moved on a Tuesday. I went in for an interview the next day on a Wednesday. They hired me that Thursday.
And so we just hit the ground running. I worked in like a big corporate gym in South Austin is where I met my husband.
And then him and I had kind of the same complaints about the corporate gym environment and decided to open up our own gym.
So we had two personal training gyms in the Austin area. And we loved it. And I loved creating relationships with people.
And there's so many parallels between training and sleep training, where it's an individual kind of thing. What works for one person or family isn't going to work for another person or family.
Success and progress isn't linear. And it's just a very personal thing. And so when someone is trusting me with their health journey, that's personal.
There has to be a trust exchange. There's a lot of vulnerability because people are moving through change. And that's hard.
Regardless of what you're doing. I just really enjoyed that personal relationship and then my husband and I started having kids and it just the environment wasn't really working for us anymore being at a gym all day long just wasn't conducive for the kind of family we wanted to have so we sold both of our gyms right before COVID thank God because that one sunk our ship and then I still trained a handful of clients virtually and in person.
As the bands kind of lifted my husband changed fields completely and as I became a parent through all of this I really struggled with my oldest and her sleep and I had really severe postpartum depression that was went undiagnosed for a really long time and all of my anxiety fixated around her sleep and that was really hard and then I learned a lot in the process though and as the fog kind of lifted I realized how much I was
Getting in her way. And I downloaded, I mean, I bought and downloaded every sleep guide you can get on the internet.
And I was disappointed with this doesn't feel right. This plan doesn't feel right. And something's not clicking. I'm missing something.
I can't figure out like when her naps are supposed to be. I can't figure out why she's waking up so much at night.
I'm trying to follow the plan. Why isn't this working? And then as the fog lifted and I stopped being so anxious and hyper fixated on everything.
I could kind of step back. It wasn't that the plan couldn't work. It just didn't work for her. And it didn't work for me.
I didn't, I didn't feel comfortable with the process as it was outlined. And I had another plan that had a bunch of options, but I didn't know which one would be right for her.
So I started piecing together what I felt comfortable with, started figuring out the timing of her sleep. And most importantly, I got out of her way and it started of her way and
And so that kind of started just dancing around in my brain. It's not that this couldn't work. It just didn't work for us.
And it needed to be something that worked for our family. So then I started helping my family and friends with sleep stuff as I was training and doing all of that.
And then we had our son and I was very confident going in. He would sleep perfect from the jump.
I've got this. I know everything about sleep. It's going to be exceptional. I was very on my high horse about it.
What an idiot. So I did it. He slept terrible. He slept worse than my daughter. And I was so just pummeled by that.
I really shook my confidence until I was like, oh, it's because he's not her. He has different sleep needs.
He's totally not as flexible as she is. I didn't realize how flexible she was until I had a more sensitive kid.
other people it is ... Once I realized that and started, again, shifting into something that would work for him, then it started clicking again.
That context really helped me as I helped my friends and their friends. One of my good friends throughout all of this was like, hey, you should do this for real, professionally.
Because I had been telling her, I think I'm getting to the end of my training journey. It's just not making sense for us because to do virtual sessions, I'd have to be stuck at a computer for an hour.
And that didn't work with also taking care of my kids. Or to go in person, I'd have to drive, be there for an hour, drive to another house, be there for an hour, drive home.
It just wasn't conducive to our family life. So I knew I was kind of getting toward the end of that.
And I told my husband about it and he was like, let's do it. So I bought the course, the certification.
It was kind of like at your own pace. I've hammered through it in like six weeks and just of friends.
back. It's the ground running. And I did both for about a year, from 2022 to 2023. And then my training journey kind of came to an end, and I decided to go for it full time.
@8:10 - Meg Trucano
And that's what I've been doing ever since. And it's very obvious that you love it and have found your calling.
@8:16 - sarahsmith
I love it. I think it's really cool to be close with people like this, in this vulnerable environment of not only change, but change around their baby, their little, their kid, like that's so emotional.
And I never found what I was looking for, with like, something attainable, where someone could really just hold my hand and walk me through it.
@8:40 - Meg Trucano
That's what I needed.
@8:41 - sarahsmith
Just tell me what to do, because I have no idea and I'm so stressed. And so I was like, well, that's what I will do for people.
And I love it. kind of, I think, heals parts of me that broke in that first year postpartum.
@8:54 - Meg Trucano
Yes. Yes. And I can echo that as a former client. That just having that support of someone, so it's, for context, and this is something I didn't realize until you and I worked together, is that there's an app, and you are in the app, minute by minute, I say, Ro is now doing this, and you're instantly back with a, try this.
Um, so, it was incredibly supportive in a way that I, I had no idea I could feel like that when I was struggling so hard with something, right, and, yeah, I, I think, I think the approach that you take is so important and magical, both in terms of, you know, someone who is suffering with the acute problem of your kid not sleeping, because that, if you have a kid that is not sleeping, there are very few things that are more excruciating to your daily life, it's awful, it affects everything, too, yeah, and that you are not the parent you want to be, etc., so, but it's.
Also about change. And so on the Changeology podcast, you know, we talk a lot about navigating change and what it takes to successfully navigate change.
And one of the most profound, obviously, life altering changes many people undergo in their lives is the transition to becoming a parent.
And I would say that, you know, I think many people think that becoming a parent is overall kind of a positive change, right?
But it is hard. And like, so much harder than you think it's going to be. And there's this little element that no one talks about when becoming a parent, and that is grief.
100%. So you've said before that even good change comes with grief. So what kind of grief do you see new parents kind of grappling with?
@10:53 - sarahsmith
I think there's grief in that, like, this isn't your life before you lose your freedom a little bit. It.
Because before kids, get to do what you want, when you want, for the most part. And then when you have a kid that shifts to, you have to prioritize what they need and want a lot of the time.
And your stuff goes to the back burner. And there's grief in that. In that recalibration of needs, that's challenging.
I think there's grief in how your relationship with your partner can change. I think there's grief in not having the parenting journey you anticipated.
Yep. Struggling more than maybe you thought you would. And then I think there's grief every time they grow, too.
Because for me, I'm sure this is a lot of parents' thing, too. Like, every time my kids get older, like, their age is my new favorite age.
There's so many, like, new fun things. But there's also new hard. And there's the grief of them not being as little as they were.
And there's just, like you said, with any change, there's grief. Even good change because you're either missing the before or grieving what you thought it would would be like if it's not that.
And that's really hard.
@12:02 - Meg Trucano
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And when I think about, you know, my kids are almost three. And so many, like, times I've just had huge reality checks on how I thought I would be as a mom, how I thought they would be as kids.
First of all, I am a highly sensitive, introverted person. I really need my quiet. And it's just really important for my nervous system.
Okay. I have to get that on either end of the day, because in the middle of the day, my kids are both super high energy.
@12:39 - sarahsmith
Like, I'm not sure I've met kids that have that much energy and they, like, feed off of each other, you know.
@12:44 - Meg Trucano
Um, so a lot of the things that I sort of envisioned myself doing as a mom, like sitting down with them and reading, like taking nature walks and things like that, and they're like, no, absolutely.
Like, we have to move, you know? And so it's grieving what I thought it was going to be like, what I perhaps wanted them to be like.
But once you kind of have your moment of grief and then move into the reality of the situation, then you can kind of make a connection with the things that we do have and the things that you can do, right?
@13:26 - sarahsmith
Yeah. I think the more that you resist change, the harder you make it on yourself. Because like you said, I always wanted to be this very mellow, calm parent.
And I thought I was a calm person before I had kids, but really I just was in control of more aspects of my life.
And having kids, you have to release a lot of control. And that really sets my nervous system on fire.
And I was just a much more reactive parent than I thought I would be. And I resisted that a lot.
Like, I don't want to be this way. So I'm not going to be this way. Instead of being... Like, okay, I am this way.
How can I add some coping things into my parenting existence? How can I lean into this and make something work for me?
Like you said, taking time in the beginning at the end of the day, knowing that about myself. But the more I resisted, the worse it got until I leaned in and was like, how can I help myself and my kids?
And that's, I mean, with sleep, with change, with all of it, right?
@14:23 - Meg Trucano
Yeah, yeah. And bringing it back to our work together, talking about those like little fluctuations and the resistance, right?
So in your work, what kinds of resistance to change do you see most often for parents?
@14:41 - sarahsmith
So much. A lot of sleep help that I do is aligning the kids' sleep timing. What time are their naps?
What time is their bedtime? To work with their physiology. Because sleep is physiological. You have to build up enough sleep pressure, which is adenosine in the brain, to make sleep.
To make it be easy to fall asleep and to stay asleep. so sometimes when I'm like, okay, we need to push his nap to 1030.
@15:09 - Meg Trucano
I get resistance there because it's not as convenient.
@15:12 - sarahsmith
This isn't convenient for my life. I don't want him to nap at that time. That's fine, but we need to adjust something.
Then we need to wake him up earlier. Then we need to shift this because of this and that. And so there's resistance there if the schedule isn't exactly where they want it to be.
There's resistance sometimes with the child's temperament. If I'm like, hey, he seems pretty sensitive to timing fluctuation. So maybe we need to get closer to what our goal is.
There's resistance there because they want their kid to be flexible, but I can't make a child flexible or inflexible.
They just are. And so I think there's some resistance to acceptance of who their kid is once we start figuring that out.
And there's so much resistance to actually changing routines. Like that's the most resistance that I get. Here's. Here's how we're going to move through this change to make sleep more sustainable in your house.
And they agree they're on board until it's time to make the change. And then there's resistance because change is hard.
Because it's hard for the parent, it's hard for the kid too. And as the parent in this changing environment, our job is to be regulated, calm, confident, and holding to these boundaries that we're trying to put in place because the child will resist.
That's their job. Change is hard. They will push back because change is hard. And that's human to resist change or have a hard time with change.
And the hardest part for the parent, I think, is being that really calm anchor to push through and hold this boundary as they resist versus just like forget it.
Okay, well, I'll just rock you to sleep. That's it. But the calmer and more confident the parent can stay, the easier it is for the child.
Because human nervous systems... They naturally want to mirror each other. That's how they work. Even for adults, if I walk into the room, I'm in a terrible mood.
I'm barking at everybody.
@17:08 - Meg Trucano
My husband is going to start being in a bad mood.
@17:11 - sarahsmith
Whereas if he's in a bad mood and I can see it and I walk in lifting it, he'll meet me there most of the time.
Now, kids can't really control that. They don't have logic to use to their advantage. So if you as a parent are frustrated or really nervous or resisting the change, they will too.
If you come in and you're like, hey, this is how it's going to be. I love you. Everything's okay.
And you stay calm.
@17:32 - Meg Trucano
They will meet you there, too. Mm hmm. Oh, that staying calm is so hard, especially when, excuse me, when your brain is, you know, I remember when we were going through this and like, I heard like wailing and mommy and this specific pitch of his voice that and it's, it's just with my son, right?
Like my daughter doesn't have. doesn't doesn't my daughter She's just chill. She can fall asleep. We had a much easier time with her, but him, he just was really struggling.
I'm texting with you on the app, and we encountered this resistance, and it was so upsetting. And you said something that absolutely blew my mind, and that is, disruption is data.
@18:30 - sarahsmith
Totally.
@18:30 - Meg Trucano
And that statement was so permission giving for me that, you know, we weren't doing it wrong in the context of change.
know, disruption really is about pattern recognition, right? It gives you information about what needs to change and how.
@18:47 - sarahsmith
Absolutely. And, like, we found that for them, too. Like, part of his disruption was messing with his sister, getting out of his bed to get into her bed.
And so we saw that disruption. What can we do to make this easier? later. back. Him to eliminate that urge to get out and go to her.
@19:04 - Meg Trucano
And we pushed their beds together.
@19:06 - sarahsmith
And it worked great.
@19:08 - Meg Trucano
It did. I was stunned. was like, there's absolutely no way it's going to work. And it just took away because he knew that prior to that, when he would climb into her bed, we would instantly go in there and check on her because she hated it.
@19:26 - sarahsmith
She was like, get out of my bed. That's him recognizing your patterns and reacting to it. And I feel like a lot of people think their kid is manipulating them.
That's not it. They're not manipulative. He wants you in there. He's going to figure out what it takes to get you in there.
That's it. And he did.
@19:43 - Meg Trucano
There was another really interesting episode that got us in there real quick. He dropped trow and peed in his bed.
@19:56 - sarahsmith
That really, I still think about that all the time.
@19:59 - Meg Trucano
Like what a. Smart kid.
@20:01 - sarahsmith
He's like, you know what? I know what I can do. I'm going to paint on the sheets and see if they'll get in here.
@20:07 - Meg Trucano
And I still remember the look on his little face when we came in. It was like a combination of satisfaction and like, oh, mommy.
But yeah, it was still very cute. So that happens so often being a parent. You're like, seriously, but you're so cute.
@20:25 - sarahsmith
You know, I think our own regulation is the hardest part of parenting in general, not just with sleep, with parenting and finding tools to help yourself regulate while these kids are making you really control.
That's so hard. That's so hard. And if you haven't had the opportunity to put those things in place before we change sleep, it's a real steep learning curve sometimes.
@20:51 - Meg Trucano
Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I, like many, I'm, I'm sure parents you work with kind of expected it to be more linear than it was.
Now, I know change is not linear when it comes to any other, anything else, but I sort of expected this to be like building blocks, right?
And just to have like a very linear, oh, this is working.
@21:13 - sarahsmith
Nope, never.
@21:14 - Meg Trucano
Nope.
@21:15 - sarahsmith
No. Progress isn't linear with any human for anything, I don't think. And it shouldn't be. There's, I mean, we're human, right?
We're going to have good days and bad days, off days, even little humans. So it's reasonable that it wouldn't be linear for them either.
@21:31 - Meg Trucano
Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. Really good point. So you work with clients who are sleep deprived, which means that they are not functioning at their cognitive best most of the time.
And they're doubting themselves. At least that's how I was as a client of yours. I was like, I just don't know if I just need someone to tell me what's going to work and be with me.umo I implemented it.
Right. Um. So, what do you do? What are some strategies that you use in your work to help clients build that trust in themselves after you step away?
@22:11 - sarahsmith
Yeah, that's hard. So, just like I'm asking them to be for their child, I'm being the calm anchor while they move through change, right?
And that helps with the trust exchange, too, that I'm not shaming or judging them for something if something gets off, if they, like, give in during a night.
That thing is make or break. No single nap, no single day is make or break because sleep isn't linear, progress isn't linear.
So, if we have a weird day, that's fine. We move on the next day. And as I'm walking people through this journey, I'm teaching them what I'm doing and why.
So, like, with you guys, I was like, he's getting out of bed to go to his sister because you will come in.
Let's eliminate that. Here's what I suggest. Let's put this together for this reason. So that as you move away from my help, you can be.
@23:00 - Meg Trucano
I'm thinking in that way too. What is his behavior communicating to me?
@23:03 - sarahsmith
Does it mean I need to hold this boundary or do I need to change my approach? Is it a timing thing?
Do I need to move his nap later, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm explaining as we go every day what I'm doing and why, why I'm suggesting what I am, what I'm thinking so that you're learning along the way.
And then at the end of the support, I give you a guide that is an off-boarding guide, kind of is a looking forward.
Here's the things I anticipate you running into, and here's how you can manage them. And then I'm always available.
Like I have a service for prior clients called the email retainer where it's a monthly fee that's affordable so that you can email me as things pop up.
Hey, we're going out of town. Here's our schedule. What should I do? Hey, we have a doctor's appointment next week right at his nap time.
How can I adjust with that? And then I email you back, usually the same day. If it's early enough in the day, hey, here's what I think.
@23:53 - Meg Trucano
And then we just have a dialogue. And that is so assuring when you're kind of. In the thick of it, too, is, you know, and sometimes my clients feel this way, too.
They're like, oh, my gosh, I'm like, I'm finally getting some traction. And like, we're going to stop working together in a week.
@24:11 - sarahsmith
Like, yeah, it is stressful.
@24:14 - Meg Trucano
And so to have that kind of continuing support, which I also offer, right, it is just like those touch bases, just so you can kind of begin to trust yourself again.
@24:23 - sarahsmith
I really think more than anything, it just builds the parents' confidence. Most of my retainer clients will email me, hey, here's what's happening.
Here's what I think. And they're right. Hey, trust your intuition. Your intuition is right on. And they just need me to validate that.
@24:38 - Meg Trucano
And I'm happy to do that because it's building their confidence every single time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And relatedly, you know, one of my my pillars in my coaching philosophy, I guess, is autonomy and reminding people that they get to choose to decide.
You are also passionate about this and reminding parents that they're. Ones who are in charge, and they get to decide.
So why do you think that this is, what are some of the reasons, I guess, that you think that this is so tough for parents?
@25:10 - sarahsmith
To be autonomous in their decisions?
@25:12 - Meg Trucano
Yeah, yeah. To say, as they're facing resistance from their kids, specifically.
@25:18 - sarahsmith
Oh, it's so emotional when your kids push back. You have all these thoughts running through your head, like, am I harming them?
Are they going to be mad at me? Are they going to resent me for this? Am I doing it right?
Like, is this going to change things in the future? Like, there's so many things running through your head constantly.
And so my job really is to be the GPS in these situations, and the parents are in the driver's seat.
You ultimately get to decide what route we take. I'm just here to guide you. But this is your child.
This is your family. And your intuition is so valuable. You know your child so much better than me. I know them based on a form and a sleepwalking app.
But you know them. And so I want to remind parents, like, here's what I would recommend. But what do you think?
Do you think this? And if they're unsure, I can be like, here's why I think it would based on what I know.
So it's always an open dialogue.
@26:07 - Meg Trucano
It's collaborative. It has to be, because I'm not going to be there forever.
@26:11 - sarahsmith
And this is your child and your family, and you are the decision maker. You're in the driver's seat from now till forever.
I want to give you that confidence that, hey, I think your idea is great. Or I wonder if we could try something else.
Here's why. And it's a collaborative thing and not me saying, no, that's wrong. I don't think so. Like, because I don't know, this is your kid, but here's what I think based on what I see.
And I have the benefit of being zoomed out, not being as emotionally connected to this child where the parent is so zoomed in, their sleep is on the line and everything feels like an emergency.
And it's not usually, it's not an emergency, but the brain is telling them this is an emergency because your amygdala is on fire because maybe your child's crying.
two, it's your kid. This is a survival thing. It's evolutionary that you're a. Fathom like freaking out and telling you this is an emergency, do something different right now.
And I have the benefit of being zoomed out and being like, hey, this is not an emergency. They do not need you right this second.
They really don't. It's going to be okay. They are okay. And I bet you they will, the next time they see you, they will greet you with a smile and a hug and it's going to be okay.
@27:21 - Meg Trucano
Right. Yeah. And, and we were going through this. My, as I said, my, my son was just, I mean, the drama.
Looking back on it when I was not in it, he was so dramatic, you know, like throwing, he would hide under the edge.
@27:42 - sarahsmith
All the stops. Oh my gosh, all the stops. But it was just, it was almost, it felt biological how powerful that urge to go in there and soothe him.
@27:53 - Meg Trucano
Right. But it's not about crying it out necessarily.
@27:58 - sarahsmith
Right. Like I'm never asking anyone. Just ignore their kid. We want to see what their behavior is communicating. Do they actually need you?
Or are they resisting this change? And our job is to tell them, hey, this change is safe. And we can do that with our consistency because it helps them know what to expect.
Whereas if our response is variable, like sometimes we're going in, sometimes we lay with them, sometimes we pick them up, that bumps their anxiety up because they don't know what to expect every time they see you.
And so even though the consistency feels hard because it's new and different, it really is communicating to them their safety and helping them know what to expect.
And all humans feel safer when they know what to expect.
@28:36 - Meg Trucano
Yeah. And yes, two points that you made that I want to validate from a psychological perspective. So the behavior is communication piece.
I think parents and just humans in general, who struggle with behavior, whether it's sleep related. Whether it's, you know, if you're a team manager and, like, you have a teammate who is behaving in a way that isn't, that behavior is communicating something.
And the more we can understand that and try to actually understand what the behavior is trying to communicate, the better we're able to meet that, right?
@29:23 - sarahsmith
Right. And it's typically not personal.
@29:25 - Meg Trucano
Yeah.
@29:26 - sarahsmith
Yeah. Whether it's your kid, your peer, your partner, it's typically not a personal attack. It's their behavior communicating something about them.
@29:36 - Meg Trucano
Yep. Yep. And so that understanding has completely changed the way I understand my kids. I'm still working on the being more reactive than I want to be.
@29:48 - sarahsmith
I think that's going to be a lifelong journey for all.
@29:51 - Meg Trucano
Because they're always changing.
@29:52 - sarahsmith
The data point you're trying to address to is constantly changing.
@29:55 - Meg Trucano
That's true. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. Um, so. So what, so we've both kind of talked about our quote unquote befores, right?
Like we're both exhausted and bewildered and we don't know what to do before we sought professional, you know, sleep help, I guess.
So what support systems, be it sleep, be it health, do you wish more parents had in place before seeking help or in general after becoming a parent?
@30:26 - sarahsmith
You know, that's a question I ask a lot of parents who I can tell don't have support in place.
Like what kind of mental health support do you have? Do you have family that can relieve you? Is your partner on board?
Do you have mental health support in terms of like a therapist or medication if needed? Like what do we have in place?
And more than anything, I wish, I hope that people have open communication with their partner in place. That's huge because if we're going into this and the two of them are not on the same page, that's really challenging.
Or if If the primary parent can't communicate to the partner, I need your help, or I need a break, then it really builds up, and then the anxiety builds up, and change becomes harder because we don't have anywhere safe to land.
So communication with the partner is, I want everyone to have that, and I have it on my intake form.
Do you live with a partner? Are they supportive of this, and will they be able to help? That's on every questionnaire I send to family because I need to know going in.
That's the situation, and if we're struggling with mental health, because a lot of families I help, a parent has PPA, PPD, PPOCD, and so I need to know, are you struggling with any of that?
Do you have support in place for that? Because it's necessary. There's nothing that you're doing wrong. It's a mood disorder.
It is something not working correctly in your body, and we need to have something in place to help you with that because I'm not qualified to be that help.
I need you to have someone. someone. Qualified around you to help you through this? Are we taking steps to support you and how?
That's really important.
@32:07 - Meg Trucano
How often do you feel like you are the point of entry for someone recognizing that they have one of those mood disorders?
@32:15 - sarahsmith
Probably a third of the time.
@32:17 - Meg Trucano
Oh, that's a lot.
@32:18 - sarahsmith
It's a lot. I had a client in my first year who, as sleep is not linear, and it didn't line up the way that she wanted to, and she started being very aggressive toward me because she was stressed and anxious, and I'm the easiest person to take it out on because I'm supposed to be helping her.
And I asked her, hey, do you have mental health support in place? I feel like this process is really stressful for you.
I want this to be as smooth as possible, but I can't predict his behavior. I can't change his temperament, and I need to see the data before we can smooth this out.
And she said, no, I don't. I don't think anything's wrong. And I was like, okay. And I... I... Now I can't push, right?
I can't be like, listen, yes, there is. I said, okay. But she continued to steadily be more aggressive with me.
at that point, this is affecting my mental health. And I have to consider that because if my mental health starts nosediving, I can't help people in the way that I want to.
And so I had to let this client go. hey, I don't appreciate the way that you're speaking to me.
I don't think it's healthy for us to continue forward together. And so I refunded her, told her exactly why.
This isn't a way that I'm okay with being communicated with. If y'all need help in the future, I'm happy to refer you to someone else.
It just seems like we're not a good fit. And there's nothing wrong with that. Her husband reached out to me a few days later.
I was like, please take us back on. She reached out to a therapist the next day. I think she realized that this was her mental health, really struggling.
Please take us back on. We understand the boundaries that you've laid down and we will not do that. I'll be more involved.
Anyway, they came back on. We smoothed it all out. She started seeing a therapist because of that interaction. And I, it was really hard for me.
That was the first client I ever had to let go of because of that. And I've only let go of a handful of clients with similar kind of stuff.
But that was, I was upset for like days over, like firing this client. And to have that be the resolution where she got the help she needed because of that interaction, that made it worth it to me, you know?
@34:34 - Meg Trucano
Mm hmm. So that's a, that's a perfect segue into the next thing that I was going to ask you is, how do you take care of your own emotional health when you're doing this really emotionally heavy work?
@34:48 - sarahsmith
Um, boundaries are very important to me and I've become very good at holding boundaries, especially around my time. I stop responding at a certain time every night.
I make sure everybody's good, but I can't keep. Keep. Keep. Thank Talking to you until I go to bed.
I need some time to decompress. I also, if I feel like communication is getting a little hazy, I bring it up.
Hey, I think this sounds like it's really stressful for you. How can we make it less stressful? Let's make sure our communication lines are open, but boundaries are very important to me in regard to people want help.
They want help so bad. And I get a lot of DMs asking me for sleep advice and I either refer them to, I do a free Q and A every Monday on my stories.
Hey, I answer questions on Mondays. I can't do it in DMs just out of fairness to my paying clients and out of fairness to myself because my bandwidth only stretches so far.
So I hold boundaries there. If people are wanting more help, then some people will buy a plan on its own without support.
And they'll try to continue to send me questions about what do I do?
@35:49 - Meg Trucano
What do I do?
@35:50 - sarahsmith
And have to be like, I'm so sorry. We can add support if you want to. I'm happy to, but I can't continue the dialogue here out of fairness to the people who have paid me.
@35:59 - Meg Trucano
for that support. And that really helps me, just having those boundaries around my time and my bandwidth. That is so smart.
And I think, I think a lot of people, I've said this before, but I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding of what boundaries actually are.
And, you know, from a psychological perspective, boundaries are not a way to change someone else's behavior.
@36:23 - sarahsmith
I think that's a big misconception.
@36:25 - Meg Trucano
Yep. Yep. It's a, it's a way to protect yourself and what resources you have, your time, your energy. Um, you know, and like you said, other people, they just want help and you have to blame them.
Yeah. And like, nobody is trying to like manipulate me or take advantage of me. They're just tired. Yeah. They're tired, but you in sick and successfully and clearly communicating your boundaries, you tell them how to get that help.
@36:53 - sarahsmith
Yeah.
@36:54 - Meg Trucano
You tell them how to get what they need.
@36:55 - sarahsmith
And it helps my clients who I do need to be in contact with regularly because if, if. If I'm burnt out or stressed out, it's much harder for me to access the empathy and compassion that I need to be able to help them in the way that I want to, like in my intention and how I help people.
@37:12 - Meg Trucano
Yes. And I love that. I think everybody in the audience could probably stand to do that more in their own lives, whether it's with work, whether it's with really anything.
Have a think about where does your energy go? Where's your time going? And where can you set up structure in your own life and in communication with other people to kind of allow yourself the maximum amount of both that you need in order to function well?
@37:40 - sarahsmith
It has to be a work-life balance. And the nature of this work is I'm essentially available throughout the daylight hours of the day to answer people.
But I also have to take care of my kids and I don't want to be on my phone constantly either.
So I have boundaries within like I will respond to you typically within the hour, but some people want me to respond.
And I just can't sometimes. I'm a stay-at-home mom, basically, with my kids. I can't always access it immediately. And so having those boundaries in place from the beginning, they're in my contract that I send people.
@38:11 - Meg Trucano
Here's my response time.
@38:12 - sarahsmith
Here's when I'm not available. Just so people know up front.
@38:18 - Meg Trucano
Yeah, but I found when working with you, through the app, the communication through the app, I mean, it was.
It was instant. You were with us. There's a lot of how I can pull it out and be like, and go back to what I'm doing.
@38:33 - sarahsmith
And I like the accessibility of that for my life and for how I support people. I don't have to be stuck in front of a computer or whatever else.
@38:44 - Meg Trucano
Or your phone, yep.
@38:45 - sarahsmith
I took my daughter to a local spring-fed pool yesterday and could be checking in, go swim, come back to get a snack, check in.
And that was nice because I can be living my life and supporting people in the way that I want to.
@39:00 - Meg Trucano
I think that what you do to support people is just a godsend. It is amazing. So we have very much kind of in and out through all the change-related nuances of this conversation.
But now I want to take you for a rapid-fire round of questions. So what is your favorite of each group to work with and why?
@39:26 - sarahsmith
Well, I love toddlers. They're my favorite because they are bananas. Babies, you can kind of predict what's going to happen based on age and what development is going on and timing and stuff.
It's relatively predictable. Now every kid is different, so it's not exactly the same, but it's more predictable than a toddler.
I did not predict that Rowan was going to pull his pants down and pee on his bed.
@39:48 - Meg Trucano
Like never.
@39:50 - sarahsmith
I love it because I am forced to be creative and to kind of think outside of the box. And what is this kid asking for?
How can we shift these things around to work? and That's It's I love it, Todd. They're bonkers.
@40:01 - Meg Trucano
I love it. Okay, what's one myth about baby or toddler sleep you wish you could banish forever?
@40:09 - sarahsmith
I wish people would stop thinking that the only answer is cry it out. Like you either have to just tough it out and just sit in this horrible sleep or you have to cry it out and those are the only two options.
Because there's so much middle ground and the middle ground is my favorite to work in because then it becomes individual to the family.
It doesn't have to be cry it out. And you also don't have to suffer through five years of terrible sleep.
The studies show that between sleep trained and not sleep trained kids by age five, sleep is exactly the same.
But what happens to your mental health while you wait? That's important. You have to survive those years.
@40:47 - Meg Trucano
You want to enjoy them. You want to enjoy them and you want to have the bandwidth to be able to be that calm, collected, as non-reactive parents.
@40:58 - sarahsmith
And that's impossible if you're sleep-depressed. It really is. It's nothing you're doing wrong. You don't have the recovery and the bandwidth to be able to be the parent you want to be when you're exhausted.
@41:08 - Meg Trucano
You just don't. Yeah. What's something about your work that people misunderstand?
@41:15 - sarahsmith
I think they think that I'm training their kids to sleep. And it's not something that I'm doing. I'm trying to line up their physiological needs so that sleep comes easy for them.
And then I'm guiding the parent through making changes to make sleep more sustainable. I'm not training anybody to do anything.
Your baby doesn't need to be trained to go to sleep. That's a biological thing. But we all get into routines.
That's human. And so if they are in the routine and the expectation of being rocked to sleep every night, it is so reasonable they would expect that if they wake up.
If my husband like scratched my back every night when I went to sleep, I'd probably wake up popping him.
Hey, come back. I'm awake. Like scratch my back. I can't sleep. That's just human. All we're doing is shifting routines so that the expectation can change.
@42:05 - Meg Trucano
I'm not training anyone to do anything. That's really good. What is the one thing you hope listeners take away from this episode?
@42:13 - sarahsmith
They really don't have to suffer through this. You can make changes in your family dynamic, in your routines, in your sleep to make sleep happen, to make it sustainable, and it can work for your individual family.
What works for your cousin might not work for you. It's a different kid. It's a different family. But you can sleep in a way and in the journey that works for your individual family.
@42:36 - Meg Trucano
You don't have to tough it out. I love that. What advice would you give to someone who's on the precipice of making a life-altering change, maybe into parenthood or into something else?
@42:47 - sarahsmith
I would communicate with whoever in your life you're partnered with or your support groups. Talk to them. Make sure you have support before you move into this chain.
And more than anything. give to someone who's to you. Lean in. Know that it's going to be uncomfortable. Embrace that discomfort, knowing that everything that goes wrong is guiding you toward the right path because disruption is data.
And so every time your path is disrupted, it's pushing you where you need to go. And that's important. So lean in, let it go wrong because that pushes you into it going right.
@43:20 - Meg Trucano
Oh, that's so well said. I love that. Okay, final question. Where can our listeners connect with you?
@43:28 - sarahsmith
Great question. I am most responsive and present on my Instagram. My handle is Swallowtail.sleep.
@43:35 - Meg Trucano
My website is SwallowtailSleep. And if they want to just shoot me an email, it's just hello at SwallowtailSleep.com. Sarah, thank you so much for being a guest.
@43:45 - sarahsmith
was a blast. Thank you for having me.
@43:47 - Meg Trucano
It really was. And thank you from the bottom of my heart for the work you do. I really cannot thank you enough for getting our life back.
And for the audience, if this is something that you are struggling I recommend Sarah so highly, Sarah and Swallowtail Sleep is the best.
@44:07 - sarahsmith
So thank you so much for joining. Yeah, happy to be here.
@44:09 - Meg Trucano
Thank you. And thank you, dear listener, for tuning into the Changeology Podcast. I'll see you in the next one.