Digital Front Door
The Digital Front Door explores how technology is reshaping the retail industry and redefining the in-store customer experience. Each episode features conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and solution providers who are driving change at the intersection of digital tools and brick-and-mortar retail. From AI-powered shopping carts to retail media, personalization, and operational efficiency, the show dives into the strategies and solutions that help retailers improve shopper engagement, increase loyalty, and grow revenue. Listeners can expect practical insights, forward-looking ideas, and real-world examples of how the “digital front door” is opening new opportunities in retail.
Digital Front Door
Ep. 8 - Omnichannel Packaging Power
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Packaging isn’t just a container anymore, it’s a channel. We sit down with Designsteins founder and CEO Matt Woolley to unpack how smart packaging, clear storytelling, and rapid execution can turn a product into a cross‑channel experience that sells on the shelf and on the screen. From early lessons in guerrilla marketing to competing with global agencies, Matt shares how his team blends design, engineering, photography, and video under one roof to deliver speed to market without losing craft.
We dig into the mistakes brands make when they assume in‑store packaging will also win online, and how to fix them with richer PDP assets, micro‑video, and emotion-led narratives. Matt explains how to measure success beyond units, think launch quality, execution ease, and client confidence, while still treating the numbers as the scoreboard. He also gets candid about sustainability: the real tradeoffs between premium finishes and eco goals, why the answer is often “more with less,” and how incremental material changes can unlock better facings, denser displays, and cleaner end‑of‑life outcomes.
If you’re leading a brand or selling into major retailers, you’ll hear why emerging players are grabbing share with speed, why social can’t be a checkbox, and how “smart brevity” on pack and online moves shoppers from curiosity to cart. We close with a look ahead at display innovation and data transparency that can finally show what works, where, and why.
Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of creativity, commerce, and customer experience. If this helped you rethink your packaging or PDP strategy, share it with a teammate and leave a quick review, it helps others find the show.
Well hello everyone and welcome to the Digital Front Door. I'm Scott Benedict. Today we're going to dive into a topic that sits at the crossroads of creativity, commerce, and customer experience, and it's really about packaging and display at retail in the omnichannel era. When it's done right, packaging isn't just about protecting a product or promoting a product. It sells it, it tells its story, and it builds trust with the consumer from shelf to screen. Today I'm joined in discussion of this evolution by my good friend Matt Woolley, who's the founder and CEO of Design Science here in Northwest Arkansas. Design Science is an omnichannel packaging and display firm. And Matt and his team have really built a business around one simple but powerful mission to help sell more product, which we all want to do that in retailing. They do that by combining branding and packaging and engineering and video capabilities and photography all under one roof, serving suppliers and retailers across mass retail club and e-commerce channels. Matt's also someone I've had the privilege of speaking with before when I was a guest on the Matt Woolley podcast here, and we were sitting on opposite sides of the table and had a different graphic up on the screen. So we're going to kind of flip the mic today and hear from him about how Design Stein's is helping brands meet the demands of modern omnichannel retail. And Matt, welcome to the program. And this is a little surreal. It is. After about the first hour. That's true. I wanted to kind of start with the origin story of the company and and how did you kind of evolve from what I understand was just a creative design firm into really uh someone that's at the epicenter of helping brands go to market in the omnichale era? Packaging ties into digital platforms a lot more today than it than it does. And a lot of the work that you do has nothing to do with packaging. It's digital elements. So, kind of what's the origin story and maybe what were some of the pivotal moments through the history of the company that led from where you started to to where you are today?
SPEAKER_00:So it all started in March of 1983. No, I'm just kidding. Um That's a while back. Yeah, a while back. So the the the here is the quick story, if I can make it one. Um so I as far as I am concerned, I've always had an art background. Um but uh I was accepted to art school, didn't go because at the time it was either like it was either gonna be nothing wrong with it, you're gonna either be an art teacher or um starving.
SPEAKER_02:And one of those was even smaller, yeah. Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:And so uh I chose a banking career. So I was in banking and I was real blessed. I kind of rose the ranks for a young guy and woke up one day and realized that the dream had become a nightmare. And so I decided that uh I wanted to uh change you know my trajectory, if you will, and and you know it's a total God thing, really, but I I I decided I was gonna I decided I was gonna try to find something that could incorporate business and art. And so I went to work for a company uh that's still around, owned by Dave and Paula Routon, a company called Parachuting Penguins. And so they're kind of the OGs, you know. And uh I I worked there for a short time, and I think they had a great business, just didn't agree with some of the you know leadership thought processes on things, and that happens, no slant to them. They run a good solid business and they're still doing it. Um but while that was while I was there, I met a guy named Jesse Jacobs. And so uh Jesse uh is was a true artist, uh, great guy. Um and uh we just kind of hit it off, we became friends, and while that was I was kind of learning a little bit of the ropes of of you know retail, just a little bit. Um he was uh he was a little bit more seasoned, and uh I was doing I I've always had like other things I've done. I I can't sit still, like I've I'm always moving, and so I did stuff like music promotion and just all kinds of different things. And so I started involving him on some of the music promotion stuff, and lo and behold, you guessed it, when stuff starts looking a lot better, and you combine great ideas with beauty, attractive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It becomes attractive, and and it so that that little business I was doing was doing rather well, and I was like, I made the joke to him one day. I said, you know, me and you ought to go into business together. And I had since left parachuting just because of the differences. Again, no slander to them, and was doing a bunch of other things, and he um uh out of the blue one day, I get a phone call on a Sunday afternoon right after church, and it's Jesse, he normally doesn't call me on the weekend. He's like, Let's do it, man. I was like, let's do what? And he goes, Let's go into business together. And I just remember sitting there just that awkward silence. I was like, Are you for real? And he goes, Yeah. He said, Let's get frog in jump. And instinctively, I just thought, okay, let's do it. And so within a few weeks, we were we're a legal business and up and running and had no idea. I understood from the banking perspective what where that is one thing I'm blessed, and I can see my journey with it with you know my personal journey as well as the journey of design science. I can see where, you know, one thing led to another led to another. And the thing the takeaway with me was I saw how successful businesses operated in the banking part of things. You know, I was more operations-based, but I did help with the lending space quite a bit. So I got to see both sides of it, and you could see what successful businesses were doing and what they poured into it. And so that kind of gave me uh insight as to looking for people to approach. And that was our start. You know, you gotta crawl before you can walk. Yes. And so I, you know, we just didn't jump into supplier land, you know. Uh we started helping small businesses around town, you know, some of which I'm proud to say are still operational and doing well. Um, but you know, we'd just like any product, we'd do a deep dive, like, hey, what where are you lacking here? What do you want more of? How do you you know you just really had to we weren't just showing up to try to, you know, get a check. You know, we were trying to make a difference. Now, don't get me wrong, we really wanted that check. Yes, and we really needed this nice little pickpoint bill, right? Yeah. But, you know, we always we always had that uh what I call the appropriate ambition. And uh and so, you know, we would do a deep dive and to try to figure out what's gonna help and effective ways in small businesses too. And I can see again in our journey how this helped us much later when we're dealing with retailers like Walmart, every cent counts. And so you had to try to figure out what get what's gonna give the most bang for your buck. And so the reality is guerrilla marketing is where it's at for the small business. You gotta go, you gotta think big and go different and try to be as economical as possible. And so the first, you know, I'd say probably two, two and a half years, that was our focus. And I mean, we did anything and everything from business cards to websites to flyers to billboard stuff, I mean, that kind of thing. I mean, and had some reasonable success. And then it's kind of a weird thing. Design science has been like three or four different businesses. Um, it just evolved, and you know, we're almost at 17 years, so praise God for that. But the um uh, you know, out of nowhere, we started making some moves, and when you start doing good for people, the best marketing happens. It's not a billboard, it's not a Facebook ad, it's word of mouth. Yep. And so people start saying, maybe you ought to look at these guys, maybe you ought to talk to these guys. And so, you know, we'd come in the door and you know, no was never in our vocabulary. If we always had a let's just figure it out. And uh, and so weirdly enough, all around the same period was our next evolution, and what it turned into was uh us being on retainer as you know, the behind the scenes guys, you know, guys that were faking that they had a marketing team doing all the stuff, like they had all that in-house. Yeah, it was just us. And that was part of our problem too, because a lot of people still today are like, man, you guys have been around for almost 17 years, haven't heard of you. That's just because of the first 10 years of our business, we didn't advertise. Yeah, we were we were yeah, we were, we were, uh, and doing good at it. Uh but you know, we we were working for and it was a ton of experience all at once. And I don't know if I don't know, because you're talking about at the time I was in my early I'm well late mid to late twenties. So I still I had a little bit more energy than I have now, you know. Um and uh I look at all that we did, uh we were working for a fishing a fishing company uh that ended up turning, we rose the ranks with them and they turned into the category lead because of both of our work together. At the same time, we were working for and that was dealing with packaging. So like a good a high percentage of the stuff we saw at Walmart at the time was coming all through our hands, like photography, the packaging, the whole nine yards. I mean, it was all us. And then at the same time, we were working for a firearms company who had just they they who had just kind of decided they were gonna invest in themselves and wanted to kind of broaden their horizons. And so we were helping those guys, which is a totally different, you know, industry if you've ever been familiar with uh firearms, it's crazy. And di different demographic. And nothing wrong with it, just different. And then at the same time, we were also working for um a company that was making headway with Walmart, uh, basically a toy company. And they were the guys that um what would happen is is um, well, you know, like Mattel would have this cool innovation, but they'd want a little bit too much money for it. Yeah. And so Walmart and other suppliers would come and say, Hey, we love what Mattel's doing over here. Can you guys figure out, you know, this water table? How do we make this water table cool and also uh a little less costly and you know, looking for those efficiencies. So we were literally dealing at one time, we were dealing with seafood, which is all the you know, you know, Asian countries. Um we were dealing with firearms manufacturing, both in the United States and like Turkey. And then on we were dealing with like China and locally with like toys and having to work between all of them. So you want to talk about a learning lesson, dude. I I mean our heads were gonna explode. Yeah. But you know, it was such an exciting time for us, and that was the segue into what would become our story because we were basically now we had successes. I mean, some of them are still today, some of them I still get aggravated because I see them at Christmas, they're like, that was our idea. The uh but but we had we had some great successes by the grace of the good Lord. We had great successes. Um, but we were also the beauty of it is is we were being paid to learn. You know, the school, whoops, it was the school of hard knocks. Yeah. And so, yeah, and and that's that's that was like the second phase of us. And then it was at that point when we were like, wait a minute, because we were s going head to head with people that were like um, you know, real large agencies, like you know, like the geometries or the arcs or the VMLs, and which we're friends with all of them, don't get me wrong, it ain't nothing like that. But I mean, whatever you're going ahead, our s our team, which was you know drastically smaller the time, uh going head to head with ideation with these guys, I mean, it we we had to stay on our toes, we couldn't give an inch. And we had to think and the entire time we were thinking economically, like how can we achieve again, it goes back to that gorilla thing. Yeah, how can we achieve the biggest bang and you know, and and uh and be effective, you know. And uh so that's when it started opening our eyes up to the fact that like we have just as much knowledge as some of these other guys. Why aren't we you know, let's really put ourselves up. Let's strive for for a higher level, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so that's the reason why we can't do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's that's it. Well, and then again, it goes back to that thing too. I tell people all the time, it's like, you know, we're all blessed with gifts, you have different gifts than I do. Um, but um, you know, you work together with other gifted people, you can create some really awesome, you know? Yeah. And and uh uh you know, rising tide lifts all boats. And so that's what we've always used our partnerships too. It's like, you know, like we're in this together. It's not just uh You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, there's some people, and and I'm not I'm not getting on one of my tangents, I promise. Um but it's one of those things too where you know some people are just there and that's okay if that's their style of business. I mean, they're in it for that hot win and then they're gone. We've just never been those guys.
SPEAKER_01:No, and and I think that's part of what I would attribute your success to is being in it for the long haul and and learning and refining your approach over time, I think, is whether you know what I did as as a retail merchant, what what you guys do, there's a recurring theme there, is is it it you don't get ahead by staying the same. Bingo. You you have to keep evolving, right? Complacency is poison. Indeed, particularly the pays that retail's going.
unknown:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it's interesting because your your your tagline for the for the company is we help sell more product, or we yeah, we help sell more product, which is bold, powerful, and wonderfully concise and to the point. Yeah. And I'm just curious, in in practice, what does that mean? In other words, how do you measure a success in some of the projects that you do from a packaging or display or engineering uh or content maybe that you create for your clients? How do how do you how do you measure a success beyond just well, we sold more of that? That's that's probably part of that. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. But it's how did we do it maybe, or did we more efficiently or faster? How how do you guys think about that?
SPEAKER_00:Man, that's such a it that one has uh many layers. So let me say this. It all started back in March of night now. I'm just kidding. So that is a fantastic question. So ultimately, if you want to just bottom line it, I mean, it's about the numbers. Everybody likes the numbers, right? Uh everybody wants a win, everybody wants to feel successful, everyone wants to keep the company wheels going. So that's that you know, that that's a big one. How do we measure it? Well, yeah, it's that data that says this was the a success. It was it's the data that says, you know, everybody, you know, was you know happy with the numbers, the made the numbers, everybody continued to live another day in business. Uh you know, but it it's it's you know, uh the delivery of the display. It was the execution was good. It's it's the uh man, you know, uh you guys made this so easy for us. Um you know, that those are the those are big ones for us. You know, now as far as selfishly is concerned, that's that that's that's our client. You know, we want our clients to be as comfortable as possible, to feel like we know what we're doing and handling it just as well, you know, they have confidence in us, and ultimately it does what we set out to do. But from the selfish side of it now, um we uh our team thrives in uh innovation and beauty. We truly are this isn't just a sales pitch. For those of you that are listening, you know, those that know me know I'm telling the truth, but for those that don't that are listening, uh you know, there's nothing greater than seeing your product on shelf and then hearing that it's such a great product. You know, uh uh one that comes to mind like right now was um there's a company called uh uh Flora Foods, they do a bunch of different things. Shout out to Flora Foods, um but you know they had a great idea for uh a little Debbie Christmas creamer. Okay. And they came to us with the idea, and when I when they were telling us about it, you know, under strict NDA, I can talk about it now because it's on the shelf. By the way, go try it, it's real good. Um but uh when they're telling us about it, and I know you're the same way. I you know, you you you know whenever you're in it or not, you know, you get that phone call, they're talking about the product, and the your first reaction is holy smoke, this is gonna kill it. Everybody's gonna win because this is a great idea. That's a success right there. That's one of the joys that we get is working with people on innovations, they just don't know how to bring it to life. And then and then to work with an iconic brand such as Little Debbie, I can attribute at least 10 pounds that I don't need to have on thanks to their delicious treats. And then NSA it hit show.
SPEAKER_01:So is it fair to say that it's you know you can sit there once it's out there, it's on the shelf and it's in in in retail, and hey, we've achieved the sales. It's it's great to achieve the sales, but man, we we achieved our potential. Correct. We're not sitting there thinking, well, if we'd done this differently or that differently, we could have sold even more. It's like you know you can sit there and go, man, we are we're selling up to our potentials uh and we feel like we Did everything that we did contributed to that success. Is that kind of how you think about it?
SPEAKER_00:We gave it our best effort. And you know, let me also say this too, and people that care about their jobs, and you know, this is something I th nobody asked for this wisdom nugget, but I'm gonna throw it out there. We'll take it. Yeah. You know, we have to be careful about uh being too critical of ourselves. Because I'm telling you, once once the bread is baked, there's always that one little lump in there that's keeping the glow from looking perfect. Every project I have learned is that way. But as long as you learn from it and you know that you did your best and it was a successful thing, that's what you win. And and and it's and it's so exciting. But it it's it's it's just it's the process too, because I know you know what I'm talking about. You've been in this business uh for for a minute. Uh you know, you have you you know nobody sees it when it's on shelf, Scott. Nobody sees those painstaking late night hours that you had that you and the team were talking about this one detail. But when that one detail creates such a ripple effect that had such a positive outcome, you're like, that's it's it's a gorgeous thing.
SPEAKER_01:So wise persons said retail is detail, and they apparently really knew what they were they were talking about.
SPEAKER_00:100% it is, it really is. Um so that that's that's success to us. The process, and you know, and I'll take it a step further too, is uh, and I'm getting a little sentimental in doing this, but it's truth. Um the relationships you built. You know, I'm I'm a very relational guy. Um I love people, I love working with people, I love thinking through stuff with people. And uh, you know, when you're in the trenches together trying to figure something out. Yeah, there's bonds that get you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And that's that's a win for us too. Absolutely. So I I want to kind of uh dive into the omnichannel elements of what you and the the team do. And it feels like there's still a lot of brands, a lot of brokers, a lot of sales teams that still think of packaging in the context of of store-only function. And I'm curious, based on what you and the team are are seeing, what's the biggest mistakes maybe that you see or that some of the client teams that you work with ignore about how packaging performs online, whether that's referring back to a digital experience or it ties the digital and and the in-store experience together? Are are there any kind of blind spots or watch outs that you would give potential clients based on what you and the team have learned about how physical retail and digital kind of through packaging, through design, through creative elements kind of work together? What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:So here's what I see. I see the people that are winning at retail are the guys that truly understand both sides. I know this is gonna sound vague, but just hear me out. I'm we'll go there. Um that see both sides of it and the importance of it working together in programs. Um I will say that I see one of two problems. I see guys that are kind of like old school, like they're not willing to change. Yes. They've been trained this way or they've done this this way for 30 years. Yeah, why are they gonna do that? If it ain't broke, it works. That's not gonna work for much longer. Um that's my horrible Reagan impression. Yes. Um I picked right up on that. I was a little hypocrite. I was too, Mr. He's a great president. Anyway, so uh well uh that's my opinion. But anyways, um uh and a decent actor. Sorry. All right, back to the story. Um so uh when you're stuck in that again, it's a complacency thing or it's an uncomfortable, uncomfortable. That's really what it is, it's being uncomfortable, not willing to look into the other side of that fence there. Or I'm seeing extremes, especially with younger guys that are thinking they they understand the importance of a little bit of the importance of on shelf, but they're thinking, man, digital is the way on everything. It's cheaper, it's more effective, it's you know, there's less hands and that kind of stuff. Uh and it's dangerous because you have to have both. Um, I think everybody knows that, but nobody wants to play by those rules.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's a it's emerging, but but uh some of us uh believe that the two things work together. It's either or. And part of how it manifests itself is that a digital experience and a store experience with a product kind of work together. And that's what I found intriguing about what some of the things that you guys do is that you cause those interconnections to happen because that's the way the consumer wants to do it. 120 percent.
SPEAKER_00:Whenever we're thinking something through, whenever we're thinking uh any type of product through, um, and and again, we jump in in all the areas. I mean, do we do help with branding, packaging, the displays, the engineering of it, the fabrication of it. We also help with the video and uh photography pieces of it. We do all of it. We can we j and the reason why our our you know we're blessed that our sh our shall is always sharp is because we're asked to jump in between all of those, between teams a lot of times. So all that to say is that uh, you know, um, for instance, like you you you we had this is I'm not gonna name names, but we had a recent one where it gorgeous packaging, and we helped kind of refine it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And we thought this is great. And I still also let me say, in defense of in-store, I am a I love, I love both.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm a let's touch this, let's feel this, let's hold this, let's put it up to our face. Let's, you know, I'm that guy. I love store walks. Do you hear me? Yeah. Next time you want to go, let's go. I love it. Um that's gonna be a whole other episode. Yeah, let's do it. Um, but uh, you know, uh nothing's ever going to replace that in my mind. But here's the problem. When you have that great looking package and it's sitting there on the shelf, um you still have that same great looking package online. But then you'll see instances where um you you have to go the extra mile online. Because when you're there, you can impulse buy that thing. I'm the worst impulse buyer too. I'm a sucker for my own, you know, you know we former buyers love people like you. So that's that's I'm a sucker for the impulse buy. But online it takes a little more finesse and a little more of a story. Yeah, because you can.
SPEAKER_01:You can tell more of a story online. Yes, you know, and really unlock the medium, right, if you will.
SPEAKER_00:And so we'll see people that that the box says uh a decent story, but then you're looking for that, hey, let's make something up. Uh, you know, let's say it's a football, let's say you're selling a football, right? Okay, well, that looks great. All right, I'm here to buy football in store. This is wonderful, this fits it, in basket, it's gone. Online, you've got like 80 options, and you're not going past page one most most cases, but uh you've got all these options. Well, what's gonna help tell the story? Well, I see these guys have a product, and again, this is just an example, but you know, uh all of a sudden it's just it's it's a 360 of the football. Wow, that's exciting. Well, why don't we talk about what it's made of? Let's have a Dyson video that dissects what it, you know, the thing of it. Or let's have a let's hit on the emotional experience of father and son throwing the football. Indeed. Or or you know, or the texture, or the color. I mean, let's talk about something. But whenever I I get to these item pages and I'm like, man, this is not this is boring. This is not making any type of this is no storytelling. And that's the problem, is you see people that because it's successful here, think it's successful over here, and they miss the complete, they miss the complete point, and they lose sales. It still does good for the most part, and you must in a lot of cases, it still does it does decent, but it couldn't do better. Yeah, you never know if it's potential, right? Yes. And we everybody's been talking about this for years, but you know, but you know, it is true. It's like you know, I don't know how many mountaintops we have to screen this from, but yet still people are catching up to it. Oh, yes. And I also see the two, uh, this is another one you didn't ask about, but we'll get off into it. But you know, I will tell you this is where uh these emerging brands are kicking butt and taking names.
SPEAKER_01:That that's that it's absolutely the case. I think we live in a time where because of Omnichannel, because of digital experiences, a an upstart brand can tell its story and build its brand in ways that when it was just fighting for shelf space, it it was hard to be successful. It's maybe a little bit easier, and in some cases, upstart brandos don't have the layers of decision making, the layers of 100 red tape. They just go, let's let's try it.
SPEAKER_00:And and if it works great, you're fine. We got a TikTok channel, let's throw it up there and see what it does. Yeah. What do we got to lose?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's and you know that reminds me that this concept of of of speed uh is one that I think is big. It's big in retailing overall. My suspicion is it's pretty big in your business. You guys do a lot of things like 3D product modeling and prototyping, and you do photography and uh a lot of these things. And it feels like one of the important integration points for a brand who would be a client of yours to have in the here and now is speed of market, but still doing it cost uh cost effectively, and that the store experience and the online experience work together to tell the story of the product to a consumer. And and so I'm I'm curious, is that am I think about that the right way that all those things you don't really get to uh give up on one of those? All those are important to the brands that you work with.
SPEAKER_00:We uh 100% the the the biggest de I can't say it, the biggest di differentiator. Differentiator. Differentiator. Yes. I I can be taught, Scott. Uh is I uh here's the things that I'm seeing. So we work in a lot of cases, so design science clientele is divided between two two people, and there's no or two uh sections of this industry, and there's no, you know, this isn't some secret. Um but we work as the B team for a lot of big guys that need that speed to market that they don't get, they got so much red tape that you know the they don't have the the buyer doesn't want to wait nine months and so they need somebody to step in. And then at the same time, we also deal with a lot of emerging brands, uh whether you know it's it's through them directly or through a broker or whatever it may be, whoever you know comes to us. Um we don't discriminate as long as the money makes sense for both of us. Um but here's what I'll see. Uh when I say I think it's great. Now the big boys don't like hearing this. Um but uh I think it's great for us consumers because what I'm seeing is is like whenever that option's not there for the big guys to compete, you know, though if Walmart, for example, Walmart says, hey, I'm look we really need to innovate this category. We need to get moving on this. The last thing Walmart wants to hear is it's gonna take a couple years. Yeah, yeah. Or or you know, give us nine months, we'll get back to you with the proposal. No, you want it while it's hot. And I've said for years uh that if you want to, you know, if when Walmart says jump, you ask how high, you go two feet higher and two days sooner, and that's how you win. It's as simple as that. And you apply that to any of the big box boys or any retailer for that matter, you know, that we cut our teeth working with Walmart, Scott. That's how we operate. That's how you have to operate. Uh you got to get it while they are strike while they're on time. And uh these when these big guys push back and say, in the old days, they could push back and say, No, you know, we're gonna need some time to innovate on those. But whenever you've got the accessibility, just like we were talking about, of you know, 30 other companies that have been hounding this buyer for a year, please just give us a chance. You can bet your butt they're locked and loaded and ready to roll. They're gonna invest in it and they're gonna move five times as fast. So what ends up happening, and we're seeing this across every retail, not just Walmart. Um we're seeing these guys, the big boys saying, uh, we need a little bit more time. And it's not because they're necessarily doing wrong, they're just structures gigantic. Um they're saying, let's hold give us some time. And they got other this guy here just jumping and screaming, please, you know. And so the buyer says, All right, I really want innovation now because everybody moves as the speed of light now. Speed of retail is different. Yes, let's give them a chance. And so they give them a chance and they give it everything they've got because you know what? They're relying on that. If they make one misstep, it could cost them their company. And so what ends up happening though when they're successful, these big guys, the big guys say, How do we lose that skew? It's because of that speed and that passion. And then two years later, they're like, How do we lose those four skews? It's because of that speed and that passion. And we're seeing that across the board. Now, don't get me wrong, the big boys are also doing a good job with innovation. I'm not slandering, but I also think, too, that there's a happy medium between the two because it's propelling innovation. It's putting the pressure on.
SPEAKER_01:Competition brings out the best, not in retailers, but in brands. Everything companies who do what you do as well is that that motivation to get there first and do it better is always good, healthy, and generally produces the best results. 100%. So I think that's a good thing. 100%. Yeah, in addition to speed, one of the things that that's that's started to evolve in say the last 10, 20 years has been sustainability, and I know it has an impact on your business because as store operators used to tell me as a buyer, there's no display in this store, Scott, that is going to be here forever. Every display has a start date and an end date, uh, and you need to plan for what happens to it. I may have a look where is this gonna go to the buyer. I I once put a very large uh uh display into Sam's Club for Sony uh when HTTV first became a thing, and everybody loved that and it helped drive sales.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome.
SPEAKER_01:And at some point that display hit its end of life. What are we supposed to do with this, Scott? So I know sustainability. Hey, we're all still here, Scott.
SPEAKER_02:We all survived.
SPEAKER_01:And Sam's Club has managed to stay in business despite my uh my efforts. But I'm curious kind of how how how you and the team think about both you know materials innovation, sustainability, knowing that everything you do has a life, will get replaced by something else, at some point has to has to to to to find a proper end of life through the lens of sustainability.
SPEAKER_00:So sustainability is a is a sensitive subject. And and it is because number one, I will say that anything that we engineer, we always think of again, it goes back to being you know, it goes back to the roots. How can we achieve more with less? So there's a there's a place for that. Um and it that does help cut down on materials. Um however, you know, the the problem that we we've been up against is like, you know, whether it's Walmart or Target or whoever it is this week saying we really need to be thinking about the environment and uh and the future and that kind of thing. And we're like, yes, uh, we agree, but you have to unfortunately be ready to pay that price point because the problem that we see is there's people that just want that big bang, they want that beautiful look, they want that gloss, they want that high quality print, and they want um everything to look glitzy and glamorous, but then they also want the packaging to be sustainable, and the science is just not there yet. I mean, there's some things that we can do, there's products out there that we can utilize, but then there becomes the other point of. And I'm just being honest here, nobody likes to talk about this stuff, but I guess I'm gonna I'm shooting you straight. What we see is is we're like, we want this to really be sustainable, but we don't want to pay for it to be sustainable. And so at that point, you have to make a decision what's more important, and you know, I'm not gonna go there, but I can give you a good, you know, idea of where it usually ends up. And uh now here's the positive there is a middle ground. So for instance, and I I can't there's two different departments we're working with right now uh in Walmart, and we're hoping that they take the bike on it. But Walmart is real big right now in you know, sustainability and get away from plastics. And so the middle ground is this. It's like okay, there's a there's a department, and I can't get off into the details, but it's uh they're using a lot of plastic, okay? And it's because they're kind of it needs plastic to it, it needs a certain amount because it's the protection, this protection thing. Um so we were tasked like how do we make this how do we make this more sustainable? So did we take away plastic completely? No. But we used as minimal as possible and tried to try to supplement that with more biodegradable things of of a better corrugate with, you know, in things of that nature. And that's usually where the win is. Is it's not everybody wants to say, oh, this is completely sustainable. No, nothing is that way.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's one of those where sustainability, and I was with the company when we started that journey 20 years ago, and Lee Scott gave us that that challenge, and it was one of those where everything was not figured out on day one. Right. The drive to innovate caused uh uh we went from incandescent light bulbs, the CCFL that had Mercury, to now LEDs. That was that took time in lighting. It takes time in packing. It takes time and and challenging people, I think, is where what I what I love what you guys do is is that yeah, you're gonna execute this project project today the best you can, but then there's the idea that I know you guys get that says, Okay, I'm gonna challenge my suppliers back to say. Hey, I'm getting pushed on this by Walmart and Walmart's suppliers and other retailers, and think about how you can you come up with a plastic that biodegrades or something like that. That challenging people back is how the innovation happens over time.
SPEAKER_00:And and the beauty of that innovation, when you're trying to innovate, like other things get unintentionally innovative. Yeah. All the inventions have been access to. Well, this one I'm speaking of right here, like no joke, in making some of these changes, and it and again I wish I could go into details because I'm being real vague right now, but it's going to actually help uh add more product to the category and help it to display better. Yeah. So we consider that a huge win because not only did we, you know, help with sustainability, but while we were doing it, we figured out a better way to do it, more efficient way to do it, and uh, you know, there's gonna be uh a better allowance for you know uh more product. And and the company they were helping, guess what? Walmart's gonna be like, great job. Glad you guys knocked this out of the park. You know, here's your reward. Then just buy some more product from me. Everybody wins.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that and to that, that that concept of innovation, uh, you know, look ahead to the degree that you can. Obviously, the future is coming at us at a pretty irrevious speed. What do you think kind of separates the leaders from the followers in the space that you guys work in? And and as you maybe collaborate with brands uh and with with retailers like Walmart, any thoughts about kind of where's the future headed on this and and and where do some of the big innovations come from potentially?
SPEAKER_00:I honestly uh it's it's a combination of all the things we've already talked about today. It's uh people that uh take into account the importance of storytelling while taking into account the beauty of a packaging, but understanding that story translates over here to digital. And then finding innovative ways, again, the guerrilla marketing thing. Thinking outside the box, like, you know, can we do something more than an IRC to drive sales? You know, like you know, it and and and it's also uh intermingling uh the which we didn't really touch on a lot uh today, but like the social media aspect too, the draw of all of that. Uh you know, they're you know, there's some really great brands out there right now that the reason why they're firing on all cylinders, and quite honestly, some of them don't have that it's not that innovative of a product. It's not. But it's because they've done a good job with their story, they have a reason, they've done a good job with their beauty, and they're telling it on every channel that they can. That's it. And you know, and so when the consumer sees it digitally, they think, man, this looks interesting. I want to know more, they may not buy it then. But then when they see it in store and they pick it up and they wow, this is gorgeous. Uh, you know, I love this. I remember these guys. All right. And then you have a friend.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. That's what you're saying. Is that you can't rely upon anyone. I I recall the day where uh packaging on the shelf was the whole ball game. And then part of why you you guys do what you do is is there's several touch points that Android product has with a consumer, you gotta be ready to store at all of them.
SPEAKER_00:And you have to and you have to be you have to, you know, critically think through and assess every channel. It's not just a matter of like, okay, we're competing here in this because I see it. I do see this, and we try to advise against it, but you see people that they're just worried about that, you know, four feet of shelf space. Um, and then think, okay, well, we got digital covered on Walmart.com, yeah, but they've got nothing going on socially. It's no longer a check the box. They don't they don't under yeah, everybody you have to understand the story from the eyes of the consumer on every channel. Those are the guys that are smoking it right now.
SPEAKER_01:And it's a lot of work. Yeah. It it is, because now instead of having to think about how a consumer acts interacts in one channel, there's multiple.
SPEAKER_00:And how how will they how and and and it's not just that, it's like where's the starting point? So the guy digitally, where does he end up in store, where does he end up on TikTok? Or the guy on TikTok, where does he end up in the store, and then then you know you're saying like there's this fight, you have to think you have to think through a lot. Um but you know, what an exciting time.
SPEAKER_01:It is, because there's there's more ways to interact with the consumer than just the package on the shelf, just the product. The possibilities. So the possibilities exactly are there. And that kind of leads me to the to those this last question I wanted to pose to you, which is that I I gotta think when you get a new client, there's some advice that you you have to give them to kind of set them straight on. This is what it takes to be successful at Walmart, at Sims, at other retailers, and you're gonna need to do these things. Is there any kind of recurring advice that maybe you you give clients?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh, you know, whenever we're sometimes we're just in full transparency and we're just you know, we're told to put a hotel on the moon.
SPEAKER_01:You know, you know, like and you just do it, yes, yeah, I think it's the right is the invoice.
SPEAKER_00:Aye, aye, yeah, no problem. That happens. Yeah, and and but you know, um again, it it goes back to some of the greats. You know, like you know, I always encourage people in marketing. Now, m these powers can be good used for good and evil, but you know, you you look back to uh the greats of you know the Ogilbees or the Edward Renee's of the world, you know, and there's a whole host of others through the years, but it's all about uh it's all about a storytell storytelling. And um also the assumption that just because you've been great that you will continue to be great. Humility is really the core of that. Um and so I think that uh I can say, you know, as far as uh giving advice, I have to be careful because, you know, uh but I'm transparent as a windowpane when when asked. But don't get stagnant water is gonna attract. And so continue to evolve, be open-minded, listen to those around you. It's the principles that drive our everyday interactions, really. Um I see when companies are open to, you know, because there's some people will ask our advice and we'll say, well, we think this is critically wrong, and you're making a big mistake here, and here is why. And they don't listen. Ultimately, I tell them you're the boss, so we're gonna do what you say. But I want to make it clear.
SPEAKER_01:Here's what we thought.
SPEAKER_00:Here's what we think. Right. And uh we're not yes men. We're not here just to cash checks, but ultimately, I kept it. And so uh, you know, just be the things that we can is your is your story really is your story really being told the right way? And and the and the one of the big ones that we see all the time is a great book. Um I'm gonna throw this one out there too. I don't get any money for this, which I should because I know that I've bought like 10 copies for people and have recommended it a million times. Um it was written by the guys that had founded Politico. Yeah. Okay. It's called Smart Brevity. And I meant a Mark actually read that. That was it. It's a great book. Yes, and it's straight to the point. Yeah. And so, you know, and that application to everything has its place because, again, you know, there's a company we're working with right now, and they're dealing with Walmart Connect, and they're trying to, you know, get some upticks, you know. And they were so it's an innovative product. Again, I can't go off into it because they haven't released it yet. Yeah. Um, but uh it they want to start telling every last detail on their packaging, and every last detail in their you know, it's like, look, dude, we're just trying to get them to your landing page. So if I had to tell you today, if I had to explain to you in two sentences why you need this product and uh how it's going, how it's going to change everything, or you know, what is that emotional draw? That that's what so many people overlook. It's that uh it's that smart brevity. What is that emotional draw? What is the reality of this product? Just simple, straightforward. And when you do that, you find success. But it's whenever you start cluttering it with like how I talk, and I just keep going on and on and on and on and on and on and on. That's when you lose people. So uh I have to give my I have to give advice to myself and to our clients. Hey, just shut up and say the basic thanks.
SPEAKER_01:So I I had I was telling uh uh somebody the other day that I had an early manager in my career who uh uh said, You're selling the sizzle, not the steak. Think what the product does for you, not the specs of the product that's happened to be consumer electronics, but it applies across categories. So very alliance to your point. One of the last things I was gonna ask you is is kind of what's next? Where where's where are you and the team going? Where where are maybe some of the innovations you see coming down the road or things that you guys want to work on uh going forward?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So again, I'm gonna this is this is gonna come on people listen to this like this guy is vague on everything. But I swear there's so much I can't tell. And retail, that's the that is that is the dilemma that is retail. Yes. Because like there's so many exciting things that you're a part of, but you can't talk about it for a year. Yes. And that sucks. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So that means what Hemicard is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yes, please. In a year, Hemingway. But I would tell you, um, we have seen gaps, we'll just say in display execution. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And um we're working on uh intertwining um some of the things that we do um with a way to truly expose the data behind the success of things. We'll put it that way. That makes sense. And um I think if we uh if we continue to hammer it, we'll be able to we've got a we've got a cool setup that I think is really going to help our display clientele to be more efficient and have transparency on both sides of both the consumer as well as if Design Steins was successful for it.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome. So well, you'll have to cut back and tell us more when you can talk about it. We'd love it. All right. Well, good. Well, thank you for so much for for joining me and for telling us the story, not only about what you at the team are doing, but how the company got started and and how you've innovated. And it it really is interesting, particularly from my perspective as a former buyer, because I know things appeared in front of me that probably had your fingerprints, yours in the teams all over them, and I couldn't understand how the supplier pulled that off that fast. And I suspect I know that you guys may have been involved. It's also interesting that it occurs to me, kind of as you're talking, that packaging really is media. It's not just something that protects the product or it really is telling a story. You talk a little bit about innovation and speed, which any of us who have worked in retail broadly or for a particular retailer here know that that's pretty important. 100% and then the the future it feels like is connected. So on the shelf presence and the digital elements work together uh to tell the story of the product. So and one of the things I want to do is is is as folks are listening, if they want to learn more about you and and designstein. So I'm gonna put a slide up on the screen right now, and it will show your your uh website and and how to not only follow your podcast, but but also to follow you and the team on social media. And I love some of the posts that you have. I think that's reflective of the creative elements of the team. Yeah, we love to create Design Stein. So uh thank you again for coming, Matt, and and and have enjoyed it immensely.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I appreciate this opportunity. Uh, if you want to know more about us, just check us out at designsteins.com. We're also on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. All the police is right. And uh well, I'd be a hypocrite if we weren't there.
SPEAKER_02:It would be kind of your clients.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it absolutely would be. Um but uh yeah, I appreciate this opportunity. It's been it's been great. You're such an excellent host. So thank you for having me on, Scott. Thank you. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:And uh thank you for joining us, and thank you uh to the audience for listening. Uh this has been the digital front door. I'm Scott Benedict.