The Couple Bubble: How to Protect Your Relationship in a Busy World

What if strengthening your relationship could improve your sleep, lower stress, and support your overall health?

In this episode of Thursday Tea with Sami: Your Sip of Wellness and Mental Health, Dr. Samia Estrada sits down with Michelle Garraway, Registered Social Worker and founder of The Relationship Agency (Ajax & Oshawa, Ontario), to explore why human connection is one of the most powerful—and often overlooked—pillars of wellness.

Michelle shares practical, research-informed insights from the Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy (PACT), including how attachment, neuroscience, and arousal regulation shape the way we fight, repair, and reconnect. You’ll learn what secure functioning really looks like, why agreements can be more effective than “boundaries,” how co-regulation supports nervous system health, and simple daily practices that help couples (and families!) feel more connected.

If you’ve been having the same fight on repeat, feeling distant, or simply want a stronger, more resilient relationship, this conversation offers real tools you can start using today.

Connect with Michelle:
Website: therelationshipagency.com (blogs + free resources)
Instagram: @relationships.are.everything
Learn more about PACT: PACT Institute + Stan Tatkin’s Wired for Love online program

Transcript

Michelle Garraway (00:00)
It really is at the core of everything because I think you can achieve a lot of those things on your own. You can work on sleep, you can work on all of those things. But if you have secure, strong relationships, increase that. Relationships protect against stress. They make you more resilient. They actually improve your sleep, lower your cortisol, do all of those things. So can get so far.

Samia (00:07)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (00:22)
It's the same when it comes to attachment. You can get a good way on your own, but solid, secure relationships are gonna be what really pushes you to that next level of wellness.

Samia (00:42)
Welcome to Thursday Tea with Sami, your sip of wellness and mental health. I'm your host, Dr. Sami Estrada, every week we gather here for thoughtful conversations about mental health, wellbeing, and what it really means to live well in everyday life. Before we begin, a quick note.

This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical or psychological care. Listening does not create a therapeutic relationship, and the views shared by my guests are their own, and everyone's experience is different. Please seek personalized care from a qualified professional. Now grab your favorite cup of tea or whatever brings you comfort.

And let's get into today's conversation.

Samia (01:45)
Hello everyone and welcome

to Thursday Tea with Sami, your sip of wellness and mental health. I'm your host, Dr. Samia Estrada. Today's conversation is one I'm genuinely excited about because we're diving into something that sits at the very heart of wellness, human connection. We talk a lot on this podcast about nutrition, movement, sleep and stress, but research consistently shows that the quality of our relationships

may be one of the strongest predictors of long-term health and wellbeing. My guest today is Michelle Garraway. Michelle is a registered social worker and the founder of the Relationship Agency with two locations in Ajax and Oshawa, Ontario. She's trained in the Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy or PACT and works with both individuals and couples to help them build secure, resilient relationships

not only with others, but also with themselves. Michelle is especially known for her couples' intensives, where partners do deep, focused work over a short period of time to create real, lasting change. She also leads a team of nine social workers, offering evidence-based therapy to individuals, couples,

and families across Ontario.

Michelle, it's such a pleasure to have you here. Welcome to Thursday Tea with Sami

Michelle Garraway (03:10)
you, Sami. I'm very happy to be here and good morning.

Samia (03:12)
⁓ thank you and good morning. It's so good to have you. Why don't we start by just telling our listeners a little bit about your story. can you share a little bit about how your professional journey started? What led you into relationship work and all those wonderful things?

Michelle Garraway (03:28)
Sure, I'd love to. this PACT work and having the clinic is actually a second career for me, but adjacent to my first career because I spent most of my professional world in the public sector, but generally working in human services or social services. So I have a background doing frontline work like most social workers do. I worked five jobs at a time. I worked in crisis centers. worked in...

employment centers, did ⁓ telephone services, all of that stuff, before I went into government. And I spent most of my time in government starting in the front lines as a caseworker in what's called Ontario Works, which is our welfare program here, and just evolved through that doing policy work, research work, innovation work. Eventually, I got to the point where I had moved out of social services and I was just working corporate wide. So I was doing ⁓ organizational performance and strategic planning for everybody. So for

garbage, for transit, for all of these things. And those things are very important, but they don't excite me. And I had moved really far away from what was important and exciting to me, which is the human work and the human connection work. So I actually did my master's in 2019. My undergrad is in psychology and criminology. And then I waited a little bit because I always knew I wanted to do a master's, but I wasn't sure what, and found my way through to social work.

and then started doing clinical work part-time, again, always having multiple jobs. And then I knew that I wanted to have a group practice. And in 2022, I started to build the foundations for that. And here we are now. And PACT specifically, I was led to when I was doing my practicum, my second practicum for my master's program, my practicum supervisor, who actually became great friends with her mother as a PACT clinician. And when I was telling her where I was and thinking, this doesn't feel right for me, I want to do something.

Samia (05:00)
Okay.

Michelle Garraway (05:08)
more meaningful, something that fits. said, have you heard about PACT? And it made a whole lot of sense. So I got the training, fell in love with it. I drank the Kool-Aid and I've been doing it ever since.

Samia (05:11)
I'm sorry.

what a beautiful story. And I know some of our listeners might not be familiar with PACT. Could you tell us a little bit about what PACT is and what made you fall in love with that?

Michelle Garraway (05:17)
Yeah.

Sure. So PACT is, like you said, the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy. It's a couples therapy method developed by Stan Tatkin, who is based out of California. It's multi-theoretical, multi-modal, which means he's very academic and an excellent clinician. So those things mean that he's pulled in all sorts of research, all sorts of techniques. He gives credit where credit is due and done the work and also tied to his own experience of being divorced and remarrying and figure things out to develop a model that really is grounded in

what human behavior actually is realistically and creates a framework for how to have what we call a secure functioning relationship.

Samia (06:02)
wonderful. Sounds like a great blend of real life and research combined together. Because I think a lot of times research can be very, I don't know, lab based and not so much grounded in what happens in real life. But when you can combine that real life with the research, I think that's when you get the best results. Good.

Michelle Garraway (06:02)
Thank

Yeah, yeah. So PACT differs

in that PACT has three foundations, attachment, neuroscience, and arousal regulation. And PACT is really based on understanding how humans operate, like I said, accepting Stan says two great things that he says a lot of great things. But two things that are really important that understands how humans really are. One is that everyone is annoying. Every single one of us human beings is annoying and difficult to live with. So we have to understand that and accept that if we want to be in relationships.

Samia (06:39)
Anyway.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (06:49)
And the other one is that our brains and our bodies are still designed for threat detection. So yes, we're wonderful and loving people, but at the end of the day, our brains are more prone to move us away from things that hurt us and are threats and dangers to us than they are to move us towards things that are good for us. So it takes active work to work with those things and be conscious of that. So PACT takes those two things into consideration and teaches people how to actually function together, knowing that that's the nature of how we are.

Samia (06:49)
Yeah.

wow. That makes so much sense when we think about it. But I think in relationships, we don't often think about that. We just think about, in the moment, what's happening. You mentioned that PACT integrates, let me see if I got this right, attachment, neuroscience, and arousal regulation. Can you explain each one of these and why they matter so much in relationships?

Michelle Garraway (07:37)
Sure.

So attachment in plain terms, it's gained a lot of popularity lately on social media, which is great, but then of course it gets distorted. But in plain terms really is the template and the framework for how we understand relationships work. So relationships in general. Attachment starts from when we're really young with our primary attachment figure. And that relationship ⁓ sets the tone for how safe you feel in relationship, how confident we feel in relationships. What we understand our role is what other people understand.

Samia (07:45)
Yes.

Michelle Garraway (08:04)
their roles are. So subconsciously, that's kind of just how we show up over and over again and repeat patterns based on attachment. So we have to have an understanding of that because we kind of just think my way of relationships and knowing relationships is the same as yours and it never ever is. So that's really important. The second one around neuroscience is knowing that relationships aren't just psychological. It's not just your intellectual knowing of things. It has to do with the way your brain actually functions.

So we talk about the different parts of the brain and understanding that when you're in a high stress situation, your amygdala is gonna kick in and say, and when you're in that state, you don't necessarily make the best decisions that are gonna move you towards things. It's just hard to make decisions because your resources, as we say, have moved away from it. knowing that your brain sometimes makes its own decisions, because it likes to be very efficient and do those things, can help you to understand how, again, how you're showing up in relationships.

Samia (08:52)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (08:55)
And then the last part around arousal regulation has to do with activation of your nervous system. So like I said, we're looking for threats. We're trying to figure out what's going on. Our nervous system runs us and also keeps us safe. So in relationships, if we have through attachment an idea of how things should be, and then we're faced with what we think is a threat and our brain kicks online, then our nervous system is also going to ramp up. And that's when you can get activated or triggered. And again, it's just completely impossible to...

make decisions that are in a secure functioning way if your nervous system is activated. So that's one of the big differentiators. So those are kind of the three pillars. So we're working with brain, body, social context, which I think really sets PACT apart from other therapy methods.

Samia (09:38)
Definitely,

yeah, it's taking into consideration all of who we are and the way that we think about things.

You mentioned something about

people sometimes getting things confused or sometimes social media contributing to that. What are some of the common misconceptions that people have about couples therapy when they first walk through the door?

Michelle Garraway (09:58)
Yeah, couples therapy, think

in general don't really understand what therapy is. I get a lot from my friends even around, you just give people advice. I'm like, that is so far from what we're actually doing. And I generally don't give advice unless it's really needed. So that, and then I think people think couples therapy is for relationships that are really in trouble and really it's a last ditch effort and it means your relationship is broken somehow. So.

Couples therapy is actually most effective when you're kind of just like struggling a little bit. And then you can come in and move much faster and really learn and integrate things. I also think people, the biggest worry I hear from people is they worry that the therapist is gonna take sides or they're gonna get blamed for something. And PACT is especially good about that because we don't care about right or wrong. We care about how you're functioning.

So that's our role. You decide what works for you in your relationship. You know, it's only a problem, it's a problem for you. So if it works fine for you, great. I don't care. I'm not invested. I'm here to be the couples therapist. Yeah.

Samia (10:57)
Yeah,

that's probably a relief to most listeners to hear that and know that, they're going to somebody who's neutral and it's just going to help them with whatever it is that they're dealing with. I know that one of the central ideas of PACT is secure functioning.

Michelle Garraway (11:10)
Yeah.

Samia (11:17)
What does secure functioning actually look like in day-to-day life in a relationship?

Michelle Garraway (11:22)
Great. so I'll give you a little bit of a foundation because I think this is one of the things that really helped me to buy into PACT and made me say, okay, yeah, this is the thing that makes sense because it's so clear what it is that we're trying to achieve where another couple's therapy methods or just relationships in general, it can feel like you love and be kind. But what does that actually look like in practice? So secure functioning is defined by five features, safety, sensitivity, justice, collaboration, and mutuality.

Samia (11:38)
Yeah.

Right.

Michelle Garraway (11:48)
So safety is both physical and emotional safety. I know you're not gonna harm me or at least not harm me intentionally. I understand that in our relationship. Sensitivity is an awareness to what's going on with your partner. And that's on two levels. So one in like just what's going on in your life. Like is work stressful? Is your relationship with your mom good right now? But the really important thing also that sets PACT apart is sensitivity is an awareness of what we call their kind of operator's manual. So I'm sensitive to the fact that I know

Samia (11:56)
Good.

Michelle Garraway (12:15)
When Sami raises this bright eyebrow, it means she's getting a little unhappy with me. So I'm sensitive to the way my partner expresses themselves, the way their emotional state changes, kind of what the signs of activation are, things like that. So really being sensitive to how your partner shows up. Justice is around equal sharing of power and also around quick repair of harm. PACT really focuses on moving through conflict quickly because we don't want those memories to lay into the nervous system and the memory system.

Samia (12:21)
Thank

Michelle Garraway (12:41)
Collaboration, we're partnerships. We're doing this together. We're working on it together and Mutuality has to do with each person really mattering in the relationship So it's the concept of what's good for you is what's good for me And then the thing people struggle with is what's not good for you. It's not good for me So I have to make decisions accordingly. So that sounds all nice and well in real life in the small moments Which are really important. It looks like when you notice a fight escalating say hold on a second

Samia (13:03)
Bye.

Michelle Garraway (13:07)
let me check in and see what's happening here. So we slow it down to real time, having a sensitivity around that. Yeah, it looks like having agreements around the way you operate as a couple. So even something very simple as checking in at the beginning of the week, particularly married couples who have young kids, there's so much going on. So pause slowing down and saying, how are we dividing this up? What are the expectations of us? What does that look like? And in conflict, having a way that you go through.

Samia (13:23)
Right.

Michelle Garraway (13:32)
and that you agree about how we're going to get through these things.

Samia (13:35)
got it. That's such a beautiful way to kind of check in with each other and, just see how things are going. And, you know, I imagine doing that early on prevents you from having a much bigger fight where you've been holding on to resentment and things like that, right?

Michelle Garraway (13:50)
Yeah,

yeah, that's a lot of the work that we do around, there's an acceptance, of course, that you're gonna have conflict and rupturing relationships, but we can prevent a lot of the conflict if we get really explicit about things and come from a secure perspective and always consider your partner in everything that you do.

Samia (14:07)
Yes. Yeah. And I know we've been talking about secure attachment and secure perspectives. If someone didn't grow up with secure attachment, how can they begin moving toward a more secure functioning relationship as an adult?

Michelle Garraway (14:23)
Yeah, that's such a great question because I think, you know, you mentioned earlier about ⁓ social media and confusion about things. I think some people think attachment is a diagnosis and it's like you have anxious attachment or you have avoidant attachment and that's kind of just it for the rest of your life. But attachment absolutely is fluid and malleable and it can change based on the experiences that you have. So an important thing in PACT is that it

Samia (14:44)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (14:46)
Even though it's supremely couple focus, it also has a big focus on individual accountability and self-activation. So if I want a good relationship, I have to be a good partner. That's the only way that it's going to happen. And both people have to do that. So if you are someone who has an insecure attachment style, it's absolutely possible to move towards that. And it starts with, first of all, understanding what that is. So understanding your own patterns in relationship. What happens to you when someone criticizes you? What happens to you when your partner leaves?

for work during the day. Just start there with reflecting on those things and understanding what the patterns are that happen inside your body, inside your brain, inside your mind, and you can make a lot of movement.

Samia (15:22)
⁓ great. I imagine once you recognize it, then you can start to make some changes, right? You can, you can say, ⁓ I know that I'm getting upset because, you know, this is something that maybe happened to me when I was a kid and I keep repeating it, but now I can make that change.

Michelle Garraway (15:38)
Yeah.

And you can plan ahead once you know those things. Like when my partner goes away on vacation, I get really anxious. And historically, that's not me. He can go, that's fine. As an example, and you know, we've had problems before because he's gone away and I text a lot and I want check-ins and I want all these things and he feels bombarded. So if I know that based on my experiences, I get really anxious when there's distance between me and my partner, perhaps when I know that something's coming up, I can say, hey, can we talk about how to make this feel good for both of us?

Samia (15:40)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (16:06)
and then maybe we'll make an agreed to plan that I'll check in every evening at 6 p.m. And I will say that if you don't check in, I'm gonna assume that you're still thinking of me and you still love me and I'm gonna give you a gracious interpretation and we'll check back in the next day.

Samia (16:20)
Okay, I love that idea. And I'm glad that you brought that up because I was also going to ask, I know that stress affects a lot of things. We talked about how stress affects the way that even our brain works and how we can respond. So I'm wondering how secure functioning might look like or what secure functioning might look like when couples are under stress, know, parenting, illness, grief, major transitions, etc.

Michelle Garraway (16:46)
Yeah,

if you've gotten to that place where you're securely in your couple bubble, it's wonderful because it really shores you up and gives you resiliency to be able to move through those things. So it would look like, first of all, having an awareness that your partner is under stress, just thinking, OK, my partner's mother is in the hospital. So I know even if he doesn't express that to me, that's going to be an added stress load to him. So I'm just going to pay attention. I'm going to be thoughtful. I'm going to check in and I'm going to check in in the way that he wants me to check in.

Samia (16:57)
Okay.

Michelle Garraway (17:14)
because some people want you to sit down and say, hey, how's it going? Tell me about your feelings. Some people want you to just bring them a chocolate bar. So I'm going to know what that looks like. It looks like, again, planning ahead, understanding, anticipating that things are going to be difficult and coming up with a plan together about what it looks like, about how you're going to navigate that together. And I think the most important thing in secure functioning is we talk about what's called the couple bubble. So in PACT, we are unapologetically relationship first.

So it's the two of you in the couple bubble and everything outside of you is what we call a third. And the priority in life is you and your couple bubble. So your partner gets the best of you, everything else comes afterwards. So secure function in those stressful situations is maintaining that couple bubble, keeping that relationship priority, setting aside quality time together, recognizing that in those stressful times, usually maybe we go for a date night.

every Friday, but maybe it's just we're going to check in with each other for five minutes every night before bed. And that's all the capacity that we have at this moment. And understanding with Grace that that is what it is.

Samia (18:15)
Yes, yes.

That's that's such a beautiful visual. The couple's bubble, right? I'm imagining it in my head and, and thinking about yes, everything else is second and your spouse or your your partner gets the best of you. ⁓ I really like that. Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (18:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, it's lovely.

We call it being in each other's care. So it's great. You can simplify it that way. If you take care of me and I take care of you, then we're both taken care of. It's great.

Samia (18:44)
Yeah, perfect. Yeah,

that sounds really easy. But I know in real life, you know, it takes a lot of work. And, that's with anything, anything that we want to work and anything that we want to succeed, we have to put the work into it. Yeah. Well, you know, I know we were talking a little bit about how social media influences things and another sort of

Michelle Garraway (18:47)
Haha, yeah.

Samia (19:07)
trending word, if we will, has been boundaries in social media. Can we talk a little bit about boundaries and relationships?

Michelle Garraway (19:15)
Yes, boundaries in relationships are important. Boundaries in life are important. People are still confused about them, but that's okay. ⁓ I think when it comes to boundaries in relationships, there's two aspects. You have to have them because you have to have expectations and needs and you have to understand what's happening inside of you and what's important to help you show up in the best way. So that's when boundaries are important. We don't really talk about boundaries in couples therapy. We instead talk about agreements.

Samia (19:21)
You're cool.

Michelle Garraway (19:39)
And that's because boundaries are kind of a one-way thing. Boundaries are about me, they're about what I need, how I show up, what I'm going to accept, what I'm not going to expect. And sometimes the way that people misuse them and weaponize them is that, you know, it's like, this is my boundary, you need to meet it or else, or there's consequences. Which really doesn't fit that model of a couple bubble. It doesn't fit that model of mutuality and collaboration and secure functioning. So we talk a lot about agreements instead of boundaries because agreements are a two-way thing. They're collaborative.

Samia (19:55)
room.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (20:05)
We've come up with them together. We've taken into consideration both partners needs, both partners boundaries. But it stays within that mindset and that frame of us as opposed to me and you.

Samia (20:17)
Got it. Yeah, that makes agreement so much more powerful, it sounds like to me, than boundaries, right? And I never really thought about boundaries in the way that you're saying, of that sort of like, here's my boundary, and if you cross it, there's a consequence. But it does feel very punitive, whereas in a relationship, you know, it's about making it work and make sure that both people are being taken care of, so there shouldn't be that punitive part to it.

Michelle Garraway (20:43)
Yeah, and particularly, you know, might not be meant that way, but particularly when we look at relationships through the lens of attachment, so many of the pain points come through disconnection or connection or rejection. So if a boundary is being presented in that way of you don't get access to me or you did something wrong, so you're going to move away from me, it's just going to trigger all of those things.

Samia (21:04)
Yeah, yeah, it starts that distancing and then everything else. If we're talking about neuroscience, because we were talking about the different aspects of this, if we're talking about neuroscience, why are agreements so powerful from the neuroscience perspective?

Michelle Garraway (21:19)
because they provide predictability and they provide safety. So if I know what to expect from my partner, my brain doesn't have to put in work. So brains are lazy, well, efficient, however you want to look at it. ⁓ Yeah, they like to go down the path of resistance. They like to go down a well-woven path so they don't have to use a lot of resources. They want to hold on to their calories. So if I know what to expect from my partner, if we've made an agreement, my brain does not have to put any attention to that.

Samia (21:22)
⁓

Yes. Yes.

Michelle Garraway (21:44)
⁓ It can put its resources in other places and it creates that sense of safety. So it's not going to activate them and make Dela to take over. I can stay in that prefrontal cortex place and make decisions in a way that is better serving me.

Samia (21:59)
Got it. Yeah,

it sounds like probably neuroplasticity takes some place there too, because the more we do that, the more comfortable we feel with it and the more automatic it becomes in the relationship, right?

Michelle Garraway (22:10)
Yeah,

exactly. And that's such a good point. we in therapy, we talk about it as having a corrective emotional experience. So if you've had hurt in a relationship before, if from your attachment development, you understand, know, relationships go this particular way and I'm going to get hurt. But then in real time, this is one of the things about PACT 2, we focus on moment to moment and what's happening in front of us. So if in real time, I like to my hands busy. If in real time.

Samia (22:19)
Okay.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (22:39)
you have an experience where say, say you're really avoiding enough conflict because you know that it's just gonna turn up into a huge, big blowout fight. So then you go down that same path, but then of course, avoiding that conflict just makes it worse. So then you're proven right and it ends up in a big fight. If in therapy you come in and we're able to create a container where you can have conflict and for the first time in your life, you can experience conflict that feels safe and calm and loving and you get through.

Samia (22:46)
Yeah.

Right.

Michelle Garraway (23:06)
to it on the other side safely, that's a corrective emotional experience. And that starts to rewire the pathway in your brain, like you're talking about with the neuroplasticity, that your brain can learn a new road to go down when it comes to conflict.

Samia (23:15)
Yes.

Got it. Yeah.

And therefore extending that feeling of safety throughout the relationship. ⁓ I love that. Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (23:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It takes a little bit of work.

So that's why I try to tell people, you just got to stick with it because you kind of open that, you dig the first little bit of that road and then the more and more you do it, it becomes easier to choose to go down that path instead of this one.

Samia (23:30)
Yes.

Yes, yes, perfect. And I know we've been talking a lot about theory and how PACT works and all that, but could you share some examples of practical agreements that couples can start using right away today, maybe, just to give people an idea, right? Because I think it's one thing to think about it in theory, but to actually apply it to our everyday life might look a little bit different.

Michelle Garraway (23:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, great. A really simple one. So the theory behind it is when it comes to attachment, attachment has a lot to do with proximity and contact maintenance. So how close we are to each other and how long we can stay like this. Some people are like, just want to be like this all the time. Some people would prefer to be like this. So what that leads to in real life is an influence on ⁓ separations and reunions. So thinking about when we leave and when we come back together.

Samia (24:16)
Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Michelle Garraway (24:28)
And separations and reunions include simple things like going to bed at night. For some people who have a very anxious style, when we go to bed at night, that's a really worrisome time for me. I might ruminate a lot. It might take me a while to go to sleep. When you come home from work in the day, when you leave for work in the morning. So you can start very easily by having a conversation about, let's build an agreement about how we want to function when it comes to separations and reunions. So how do we want to ⁓ say goodbye to each other in the morning? And how do we want to reunite each day when we come home? What's that going to look like?

Samia (24:32)
Okay.

you

Okay,

I'm thinking about some of my clients and how sometimes they come home from work and they're stressed, know, work has been stressful, they've been busy, they, you know, and I often talk to them about transitions for themselves to leave work at work and then be able to be present at home. But

I think what you said is so lovely to have that agreement of how are we going to

that going to look like? Because

if we're coming home stressed and not wanting to deal with anything and we're in a bad

what's that going to do for the rest of our evening with our spouse or our loved one? But when we have that agreement, then we kind of know to, we can either have that transition activity like I was talking about, or we know

at the door, we leave everything else because once we walk through that door, we have an agreement of what that's going to look like.

Michelle Garraway (25:45)
Yeah,

absolutely. And you come up with that agreement with that sensitivity and that justice and the collaboration and the mutual understanding. So it's going to look different for everyone. In my ideal world, everyone comes home and embraces for 30 seconds and kisses and then moves into it. But for some people, maybe right now that might be too much. So you can agree though that I'm going to take 10 minutes and I'm going to go into the basement and I'm going to meditate or I'm going to read or I'm going to...

Samia (25:52)
Yes.

Thank you.

Michelle Garraway (26:06)
scroll on social, whatever it is that you're going to do. But after 10 minutes, I will come up to you and I will give you that hug and that kiss. So that other person who is more longing for that might be able to sit tight for that 10 minutes, knowing and having faith that will happen. They can just have a bit of patience.

Samia (26:12)
Yes.

Right. And this works for all kinds of relationships. I'm thinking back to a time where I had to commute about an hour and a half to two hours each way and work a very long work day. And then I'd come home. And of course, my husband and my daughter had been waiting for me all day. Couldn't wait to see me. You know, they were excited.

Me, I had been in traffic in the morning, worked a long day at work, and then in traffic in the evening. And all I wanted to do was get home and shower and forget about my day. And so sometimes there was that misconnection there. And so what we decided to do, because I noticed pretty shortly after I started doing this commute that this wasn't going to work for our family. And so I did exactly what you're talking about as I said.

Hey guys, when I get home, I'm gonna give you a hug. I'm gonna say hello and all that, but then I'm gonna get in the shower and I'm gonna get comfortable and then I'm gonna come back and then we'll talk about our days and because I'll feel fresher and I'll be ready to talk and I will have washed the day off of me. And that worked perfect for us. So that was an agreement and that was, and it doesn't necessarily have to be just with your romantic partner, because that was an agreement with my daughter as well.

Michelle Garraway (27:26)
Thank

Absolutely, yeah, that's a great example and a good point to make too that we use PACT. I've used PACT with families too, with parent-child dynamics. You can use it in your workplace. You can use it with friendships. Just considering the way, again, coming back on the accountability and how I want to show up in relationships piece, you can implement these principles in all of your relationships and it feels good.

Samia (27:56)
Yes, absolutely.

And I want to keep thinking about all the positive things, but I can't help but wonder what happens if an agreement is broken and how should couples talk about this or approach the repair of that?

Michelle Garraway (28:10)
Excellent question. Because when we talk about making agreements, we then say, okay, what happens when we break this agreement? So we make an agreement about how we repair when we're making the agreement. Yes, absolutely. think that's what one way that working with a therapist is really helpful because I tend to go an extra five steps that people wouldn't even think about. So we've already got that in place. So ideally, if we're talking about coming from a secure functioning perspective,

Samia (28:18)
Yes. I'm ⁓ okay. Yeah.

Yes.

Perfect.

Michelle Garraway (28:37)
We accept, like we said, everyone is difficult and annoying. There's going to be conflict. So we know that we're going to fall short sometimes. So we have an agreement around the way that we communicate that disappointment to each other. We have agreements around knowing that when we have fallen short, we have accountability. We acknowledge the impact. We discuss what we can do differently next time. We make repair, and we co-regulate with each other. So it's going to happen.

Samia (28:44)
Yes.

Okay,

perfect. So that's going to look different for every couple because it's what works for them. And it sounds like you place an emphasis on personal accountability. What does accountability look like in a secure functioning relationship?

Michelle Garraway (29:03)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

It looks like placing consideration for that couple bubble and the relationship above being right or wrong and having those be more important than that. Right or wrong really kind of goes out the window when we're looking at being in a couple bubble and being in a secure functioning relationship. So even if I didn't intend to harm you, I have to know that it did harm you. Maybe it wouldn't have harmed me. It wouldn't have been my experience of that.

But there has to be an acknowledgement of an experience that is different from yours and an acknowledgement that maybe I played a role in that, acknowledging it, making amends for it, and making a plan to do it differently.

Samia (29:47)
Yeah.

Yes.

Okay, I've come across couples who have a really hard time letting go of that right or wrong and or of wanting to be apologized to when the other person does something wrong. How do you work with something like that?

Michelle Garraway (30:09)
So we have to understand where the not wanting to let go of the right or wrong comes from. Sometimes we work with all different kinds of couples. sometimes neurodivergence can play a factor in that. And we have to explore it from that perspective if there's very rigid thinking so we can understand it from that. And again, it comes to looking at what's realistic with someone's capacity in that of can they move a little bit this way and can you move a little bit this way so that it can be workable. But if not, you're choosing to be in this relationship. So some things you have to choose.

Samia (30:23)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (30:36)
accept if you want to stay in this relationship. Now if it's not that, we want to look at where the story comes from about why that is so important. A lot of the most common thing I see around the importance of being right or wrong is that for some people being wrong would come along with so much shame and so much hurt and so much pain that it is easier and more protective to stay in that stance of I was right, was right, I was right and not acknowledge that. So if we can create a space where

Samia (30:38)
Right.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (31:02)
you can be wrong and that's okay and I still love you no matter what it can be a lot easier for people to suggest admit that I can say ⁓ I'm so sorry and that's it move along.

Samia (31:05)
Yeah.

Yes.

And I imagine that that's part of the reason why couples sometimes struggle with repair is, it's not about actual struggle of repairing the relationship, but how the individual feels about it or what, memories or triggers or emotions that brings up for that person, right?

Michelle Garraway (31:19)
Thank

Yeah,

we look a lot at what's happening under the surface. Like I've said, what's happening in the brain, in the body, in the nervous system. So for some people, if I am wrong, that means I am unlovable, which means my partner will leave me. I will be abandoned. I will be on my own. So they don't communicate. They don't think that. They don't think that's what's happening for sure. They don't communicate that definitely. What happens above the line, above the...

Samia (31:36)
Yeah.

Okay.

Got it.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (31:53)
subconscious and what's observable is they get defensive or they get critical or they get hostile or they disengage or whatnot. But what's really happening underneath is that it's so important that I'm not wrong because if I am wrong, I'm on my own.

Samia (32:04)
Yeah,

got it. Okay, so I'm trying to picture this in a relationship. Can you give us an example or walk us through what maybe a healthy repair might look like? What people might say to each other?

Michelle Garraway (32:17)
Yeah, so I do ⁓ borrow from some of the Gottman's research. mean, PACT does too, because Gottman is very, the Gottman method is very academic, very well researched, and they have a lot of really practical tools, techniques, resources, scripts, things like that. So the Gottman's talk about a gentle startup, speaking from "I" people know that type of thing. So repair would look like whoever's, ideally you notice that you've done harm first. So somebody has to bring it up.

Samia (32:28)
Let's.

Michelle Garraway (32:42)
Ideally, if you've done harm, you can bring it up. That's beautiful. That's a wonderful thing to say, hey, I think I missed something there and I want to talk to you about it. That's the best way to go. If not, if you have the one who is feeling like you've been harmed, if you can bring it up and say, hey, I'm feeling hurt about something, I want to talk with you about something. And then it's a process of expressing the emotional impact on you, getting any clarity on things, feeling heard and understood. So hey, when you didn't...

do the dishes like I asked you to. It made me feel really unseen and unheard and a little bit taken for granted. And I want to know if we can talk about what happened and talk about what we can do differently next time. you might be met with, usually traditionally you might be met with, you're always bothering me. you're always, but if we come from a secure functioning place, you can say, I mean, me immediately, I would say, I'm so sorry you felt that way. Let's talk about it. And I can understand, understand why it's important to you.

And then I think a really important piece that people leave out, and one of my favourite things to do is have people create some understanding of how do we know that this is repaired? Because some couples can want to rush through it so quickly that they leave before it's actually repaired, and one person is still kind of holding on to the hurt and the other person thinks, that was awesome, and they don't know. then, yeah, some couples also will just go on forever and ever and ever and ever and ever, which just makes it worse than when they're talking about a different fight.

Samia (33:41)
Okay.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (33:56)
So if you have some sort of agreement, which is as simple as, does this feel repaired for you? And you say yes, and you say yes. And I like to have fun in relationships. Like we really need a lot of levity in relationships. So I'll ask people like, do you need a secret handshake? Do you need a secret word? Like, do you need a fist bump? Whatever. So they'll come up with something that works for them. Silly couples are more into this, so they might have a silly handshake that they make up, but it feels solidly repaired. And then there needs to be reconnection. So what does that look like? And that's something as simple as, okay, after a fight we hug, we kiss.

Samia (34:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (34:25)
This is repaired, but it feels good.

Samia (34:25)
Yes.

I love that you're, you are helping the couple think about the next steps that come after that. Because like I said, sometimes they only think about, okay, this is what I need to do and repair. then what happens after because sometimes that transition from being upset with each other to now

having repaired and talked about it feels a little awkward. Like how do I go from being mad to being lovey-dovey again, right? And so that secret handshake or that fist bump or you know, whatever, I think that that just lightens the mood and allows for that transition.

Michelle Garraway (34:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it's really important too that conflict is contained to its individual conflict. So if we have a disagreement about something and we work through it and repair it, it's gone. We don't go back there. So each conflict is its own individual thing. We repair through it quickly and then we leave it in the past and we move on. There'll be plenty of fights in the future. Yeah.

Samia (35:12)
Yeah.

Okay, yes,

yeah. When you were giving the example, you mentioned, not part of the repair, but as an aside that one of the partners might feel like, here we go again, right? Is there ever this feeling like maybe you have to pick your battles or, you know, I have had in the past where

one of the two partners feels like, well, the other partner is just nitpicking. Like it's just everything. We have to talk about everything because it seems like I can't do anything right. How would you handle a situation like that?

Michelle Garraway (35:55)
So I find usually in that situation, it's actually that that partner is hypersensitive to criticism. So even if the partner is just saying, can, hey, you forgot to do that. Can you do that? They're like, what an attack on me. So that tends to be the place where we would work on it. If however, someone is constantly choosing something, yes, totally. You have to give your partner a generous interpretation. So sometimes I have to say to people like,

Samia (36:03)
Okay.

Okay.

Michelle Garraway (36:20)
What would you do if this was somebody you liked? Like to have to remind them that you like this person and you care about this person. So if this was a friend, would you so quickly, you know, judge their character and criticize them and come down on them so harshly? So yeah, absolutely. If you can give your partner a generous interpretation, remind yourself consistently, I like this person, they like me, we love each other. They're not doing this to me. That's an important thing for a lot of people to work on too. They tend to have kind of a victim mentality around things are being done to them.

Samia (36:23)
Yeah. Yes. ⁓

All

Michelle Garraway (36:49)
So you can move through things and I should note too you will find When people start couples therapy there is kind of this place where I do encourage people and say like, know For a little while you're gonna have to do things bigger and longer than you usually would you're gonna have to talk about your feelings You're gonna get get really practiced and saying I feel hurt So you might do it more often than not but eventually through what we talked about those corrective experiences You will get that feeling of knowing. I don't have to say every little thing. They know

Samia (36:50)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (37:16)
They know what I need, they love me, they're gonna take care of me and I'll bring up what's important and I'll drop what's not.

Samia (37:20)
Okay, okay. And now I'm curious about the opposite as well, because I know there's a lot of couples that like to, as we say, sweep things under the rug, they don't want the conflict. So they'd rather just kind of sweep it under the rug, pretend like it never happened. What happens in that in that situation?

Michelle Garraway (37:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, never fighting is not a good thing. That's not a good, that's not an indicator of a healthy relationship. And when they never do, often in those times, those people have a fear of conflict, of course. So they have to actually learn the conflict skills. have to learn that conflict is okay and it's safe. And they generally have a disconnection from understanding what their own needs are and understanding their feelings and what's happening in their body when conflict comes up and understanding those things.

Samia (37:44)
You

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Michelle Garraway (38:04)
So we have to have them first of all start to see conflict as a good thing. I explain it to people like it's just like working out. Like if you lift weights, the muscle building theory was, when you lift weights, you create little micro tears in your muscles and then that rest time in between makes them bigger and stronger. So it's the same thing with a relationship. If you can have healthy conflict, the relationship is gonna go deeper, more intimacy, connection. So you need it in the relationship.

Samia (38:20)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (38:28)
So when they avoid completely, yeah, we tend to spend a bit more time having each person get more in touch with their internal world, understanding the templates that they have for what conflict looks like, working on those skills of conflict. And then really my job, we talk about a PACT therapist being the master regulator in the room. So we control the temperature of the arousal, what's happening. So my job is to really hold steady and make it safe for people to have conflict in that way.

Samia (38:54)
Okay,

that sounds beautiful. I'm really curious, what are some of the conflict patterns that you see most often?

Michelle Garraway (38:55)
Cool.

Sure, so there's the classic pursue and withdrawal, which if anyone's really read about attachment or studied ⁓ EFT, emotion-focused therapy, Sue Johnson really established that. So one person may present as more anxious, so they are kind of chasing after, constantly seeking reassurance, constantly seeking closeness. And another person ⁓ is more avoidant and they just want distance, they want away. So the more this person pursues, the more they go away. So in PACT, we talk about attachment very simply to make it easy for people.

Samia (39:19)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (39:29)
So secure attachment we call an anchor, anxious attachment we call a wave, and avoidant attachment we call an island. So if you think the picture of an avoidant person is an island, and then the wave just keeps crashing and crashing and crashing and crashing. And the more they come, the more it tries to pull away. So we try to work on kind of rebalancing that system and coming to a place where the anxious person, the wave, can have a bit more calmness.

Samia (39:30)
Okay.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (39:55)
and express their needs in a way that doesn't feel like rejection and criticism for the avoidant person. And the avoidant person can start to move forward. So this person stays a little closer. So we go through that. Mutual escalation. So both people go, phoop, immediately through the roof. That one's hard to work with. So we do that one. So it just builds and builds and builds and builds builds and builds. We don't know what we're fighting about at this point. We're just fighting. The example that you gave of just a shut down, complete conflict avoidance. So.

Samia (40:03)
eyes.

Yes.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (40:22)
They're coming

because they feel like they're roommates or they're disconnected or very often we'll see this in long-term couples where they'll come in because they disagree on parenting adult children and they've just, they just stopped trying to do anything together. So they avoid it completely. So those are the most common ones.

Samia (40:41)
Okay, okay.

We've been talking a lot about couples. I want to ⁓ shift gears a little bit to more talking about connection because I think that a lot of the things that you're talking about are things that, as we talked about earlier, are not only good for couples but in relationships in general.

In this podcast, we generally talk about lifestyle medicine and the six pillars, you know, that being nutrition and physical activity and sleep and interpersonal connection and avoidance of risky behaviors and managing stress. But that interpersonal connection is so important. How do you see that interpersonal connection fitting into the broader picture for wellness?

Michelle Garraway (41:22)
For me, of course, because this is the work that I do, and our slogan is relationships are everything, and that's my Instagram handle too. It really is at the core of everything because I think you can achieve a lot of those things on your own. You can work on sleep, you can work on all of those things. But if you have secure, strong relationships, increase that. Relationships protect against stress. They make you more resilient. They actually improve your sleep, lower your cortisol, do all of those things. So can get so far.

Samia (41:36)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (41:49)
It's the same when it comes to attachment. You can get a good way on your own, but solid, secure relationships are gonna be what really pushes you to that next level of wellness.

Samia (41:58)
Yes, I'm so glad that you said that because we, I think when we think about connection in general, we don't often think about the physical benefits that we get, right? The lower cortisol, the better sleep, even better digestion, better immune system. But ⁓ it's amazing how that interpersonal connection, how much we need it, first of all, and how good it is for us.

Michelle Garraway (42:22)
Yeah,

this is a thing that it's so interesting that we really struggle with as human beings as a species as an animal, we are wired for connection. We are wired for interdependence. That's the way we were designed. I have Stan's books back there. One is wired for love. One is wired for dating. That is the way we function. That's who we are as a species. But the way our society has evolved, particularly here in North America, there's such a focus on hyperindependence. And it's just not that's not the way we were designed. That is not our operating model.

Samia (42:36)
Yes.

Right, exactly.

There's so much about connection that aside from the physical aspects of it, there's been a lot of research, for example, that when we're together, like if two people are in line to get lunch, for example, and the first person orders a healthy lunch, the person behind is more likely to order a healthy lunch, right? Or if somebody lights up a cigarette, even if the person behind them maybe wasn't planning on lighting a cigarette, they'd be more likely. So there's

Michelle Garraway (43:09)
Mm-hmm.

Samia (43:18)
almost like this contagious energy that happens when we're with other people. And I think that comes into play too when we talk about co-regulation, you know, and how, well, I'm gonna ask you, because you're the expert, can you ⁓ explain to us or talk to us about co-regulation and why it's so essential to our human wellbeing?

Michelle Garraway (43:40)
Yeah, think we don't, nobody thinks about their nervous system. I get it. That'd be kind of weird if you're just walking around thinking about your nervous system. when you think about it, the example you gave, I think of the concept of neuroception. So people are familiar with perception. So I see things, I hear things, I smell things, I take that information in, I process it, I make decisions according to that. But there's also a neuroception. So your nervous system is open, scanning the environment to understand things. So the examples that you gave are kind of, I think, a blend of like behavioral economics.

Samia (43:44)
Yeah.

Alright.

Michelle Garraway (44:08)
I see things that influences me, but also neuroception. I'm open to the world around me. It is the way it is, as much as we might try to shut it out. So when it comes to co-regulation, this is a really important one too, because I think sometimes people can get co-regulation confused with co-dependence, especially if there's pushback against kind of the fact that we need people. But co-regulation is another person's nervous system coming next to mine.

Samia (44:25)
Yes.

Michelle Garraway (44:33)
showing up with a presence, showing up with stability. That person just showing up, like me being the master regulator in the room, lending out my nervous system, helps to regulate someone else's nervous system, helps to bring them down, helps to keep them in that, what we call the window of tolerance, where they can make their best decisions. The heart is pumping the way it needs to, my cholesterol is where it needs to be, my blood pressure is where it needs to be. So all of our nervous systems are touching each other, whether we like it or not. And so if we can have an awareness to that,

Samia (45:00)
it

Michelle Garraway (45:02)
and have a relationship where we co-regulate with each other, it's great. It's like, I think about, okay, I think about this episode of The Simpsons. I don't know if you ever watched it. When the aliens invaded and they were walking down the street holding hands and everyone thought it was weird. And they were like, we're just exchanging important information. What's so weird about that? It's a normal thing for us to touch each other, for us to be connected, for us to share our presence and our calmness with each other.

Samia (45:17)
Yes.

Yes, my husband and I do this funny thing where, you know, we've talked about the research about endorphins and how touch releases endorphins and things like that. And so sometimes we've had a bad day and we'll come up to each other and just say, I need some endorphins. And then that's just a cue for like, I need a hug or I need to hold hands or I just need to be near you. And that's a way of co-regulation for us. ⁓

Michelle Garraway (45:51)
Absolutely. Yeah, my partner has a bald head and I love it and I rub it and that feels good for me and it

feels good for him. So you have to figure out what feels soothing for each person.

Samia (45:59)
Yes, that's wonderful. this has been such a good conversation. And I know that listeners probably want to get something

practical and doable. What would you recommend? What could be some daily rituals

micro practices that can help strengthen their connection?

Michelle Garraway (46:15)
Awesome.

Okay. So first of all, yes, the how do we say hello? How do we say goodbye when we part each day? How do we show each other appreciation? So what do you like? Do you want actual words and ask each other how what what helps you to know you are appreciated? And I might say, I want you to tell me I appreciate you, or I want you to cook breakfast for me. That makes me feel appreciated. Come up with agreements on that. If you can think about

Samia (46:19)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Garraway (46:39)
Kind of like the, we talk about slicing things thin. So don't start with your biggest problem. So say your problem is your in-laws. Start with a smaller problem and say, hey, can we make agreement about how we're gonna handle things, like the dishes? Whatever, maybe that's what it Let's have an agreement about it. That one, I really like actually, if people wanna keep it simple, I'm a big fan of the Gottman State of the Union check-in.

Samia (46:45)
Thank

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (47:02)
So it's a weekly check-in. You start with five appreciations that you have from each other for the week before. You talk about what you think really went well for the relationship that week. You talk about any repair that needs to happen, anything you need to process. And then lastly, you ask the question, what can I do to make you feel more love this week? So that's a wonderful practice to implement weekly. And then even smaller, if you can implement trying to have a 30 second hug.

Samia (47:03)
Okay.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (47:28)
each day or a 10 second kiss. Those ones are great.

Samia (47:30)
Okay.

Perfect. I love all those

That's such a great idea and I think checking in with each other every week takes it out of The realm of conflict you're checking in to it's preventative work You're checking in to keep your relationship working. Well rather than waiting for something to go wrong before you check in

Michelle Garraway (47:51)
Yeah, and I love the final question. How can I make you feel more love this week? ⁓ Exciting. That's cool.

Samia (47:55)
Yes, so beautiful, know.

Yeah, Good. And how can people bring more of that emotional safety and sensitivity into their everyday interactions?

Michelle Garraway (48:07)
I really think it starts with understanding what happens inside of you when you interact with people. Really understanding and pay attention to your body. So what happens in my chest? What happens in my throat? What happens in my muscles? What happens in my face? My face says a lot. Start understanding the way that you're showing up in your relationships so that you can make slight adjustments around that. So people often want to say, well, I want to be more such and such for...

Samia (48:12)
Okay, yeah.

Come on.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (48:33)
the people in my life and so I'm going to ask more questions or I'm going to check in more with how they're feeling. But what kind of presence are you bringing when you ask those questions? Is it coming with demands? Is it coming with criticism? Are you showing up as a safe nervous system for the people in your life? So start with understanding what happens inside of you, what the messages are that you carry around, what your own expectations are in relationships and the kind of person that you show up with. you doing your role when it comes to secure functioning?

Samia (49:01)
Got it. Okay. Are those the same strategies that you would recommend if somebody's feeling distant in their relationship or do think there's different strategies for reconnecting when you're starting to feel that distancing from your partner?

Michelle Garraway (49:16)
So I would say yes and. So yes, you have to understand what's happening in you. So if I'm feeling a distance, it's tricky. It's this constant thing of knowing what of this is mine and what of this is ours. So am I feeling a distance just because something is triggered in me that's triggered that abandonment thing and I feel like you're not there, but really you're just carrying on with your life you think that everything's great? Or have we really not spent a lot of quality time together? Have we really not talked about something? Maybe there's something unrepaired that's lingering.

in the relationship. So start with an understanding. I always think it's really important when we enter a conversation to have a framing for that conversation. What's my goal of this conversation? Am I hoping to get an apology? Am I hoping to feel more connected? Am I hoping to come up with a plan? Do I just want to be heard? Do I want to do some problem solving? So if you're that person who's feeling disconnected, sit with yourself, understanding what the feeling actually is, understand what's mine, what's yours, have a goal for the conversation, go in with a gentle startup.

Samia (49:53)
Yes.

Michelle Garraway (50:10)
and have that conversation and then and make a plan because you know if you're feeling disconnected you're disconnected so how can we connect?

Samia (50:16)
yeah, So it sounds like a little bit of everything that we've already talked about, but checking in first and then using those same tactics.

Michelle Garraway (50:24)
Yeah, and there's so many reasons why you could feel disconnected, right? Maybe it is just that you're busy, or maybe it is you have this long-term pattern of disengagement and misattunement, and now here you are. And that's going to take more work than one conversation.

Samia (50:36)
Okay, okay. And I know we've been talking about regulation and co-regulation and attachment, but another part that PACT emphasizes is that arousal regulation. Can you tell us a little bit about what arousal regulation looks like in real life?

Michelle Garraway (50:53)
Sure, so we talk about, I don't know if you've had this on your show before, but you know what it is, but the window of tolerance. So when somebody is within their window, think about it like there's this little thing, I'm in my window, I'm happy, I'm going along in life, I can go up and down, I can get angry, I can get sad, I can get excited, but I'm still within that window. So can feel all of these feelings, but I still have full access to my resources. I don't feel threatened, I feel safe, I'm cool. So.

Samia (50:59)
Yes.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (51:16)
⁓ When you get dysregulated, you can go up or can go down outside of that window. So when you're hyper aroused, this tends to present and look more, it's more visible. So it's bigger. This is when people yell, this is the people who punch walls, these people who throw things. It's big, it's visible. Or you can down regulate in your arousal and end up in hypo arousal, which looks more like depression or withdrawal or being quiet.

Samia (51:29)
Right.

Michelle Garraway (51:39)
So the important thing that I tell people to know is that once you've gone outside of that window, it is not possible for you to resolve any conflict. It's not possible for you to make decisions in the way that you want to make decisions that you would when you're actually regulated. So when it comes to arousal regulation within a relationship, if we know that, that I can't do anything if I'm hyper or hypo aroused, then the first responsibility in a relationship is to drop whatever we're doing and tend to that arousal and bring yourself back into that window before you can do anything.

Samia (51:51)
Friday.

of me.

Michelle Garraway (52:08)
So people need to know what it looks like for themselves and for their partner when they start heading out. So that's an exercise that we do because it's quite specific for each person. So some people you will see ⁓ they'll sit up tighter. And it's always so fascinating to me that the way your body responds is like a representation of what's happening inside of your emotions. So for some people, their throat will get really tight and it's because the feeling is it's not safe to speak. So my throat.

Samia (52:14)
See you.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (52:35)
Some people will actually collapse and try to make themselves smaller so they can't be seen. Some people will puff up because they're like, a fight is coming so I need to get ready in my fight stance. So understand what it looks like in your partner where they start to head out. Maybe their speech gets a lot faster. Maybe their speech gets a lot slower. These are all things that have to do with arousal and understand what it looks like for yourself. And then because we're mutually taking care of each other, whoever noticed it first can speak up and then make decisions accordingly.

Samia (52:35)
for life.

Got it.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, and do partners influence each other's nervous system or arousal?

Michelle Garraway (53:08)
100 % yes. So ideally your partner influences

you to feel calm, but in triggered moments, you're going to influence you to feel aroused, which is so important. Like what we were just talking about when it comes to wellness overall, that if you are in a chronically stressful relationship or if you're in a relationship with someone who is influencing you to chronically be aroused, that's going to impact your health. That's when we see people with chronic health conditions and we look to, okay, what's your relationship like if you're just in a constant state of arousal?

Samia (53:13)
Yes. ⁓

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (53:36)
Yeah, you're going to be secreting hormones. Your cortisol is going to be all over the place. You can't sleep. You can't rest. Your immune system is depressed. And it's because you're constantly in that arousal state.

Samia (53:45)
Yes. And if your partner notices this, if your partner notices you're outside of your window, Are there specific things that your partner should do and specific things they should avoid?

Michelle Garraway (53:55)
Yes,

and the ideal thing is that when you are not aroused, you have a conversation about what that looks like. Because the last thing anyone wants when they're angry is for somebody to say, you seem angry. That's what can make you more angry. Yeah, so ideally, we have a conversation before and of, how can you flag to me that we need to take it down? And we will actually do, we'll play that out in session because you'll feel immediately if they say, um,

Samia (54:03)
Okay.

Right? Exactly.

Michelle Garraway (54:22)
Sami, you're getting really angry right now. You need to calm down. You're going to have a... And we'll know, don't say that to me. So we'll test it out and we'll come up with what it is you need to say because it is different for everyone. Sometimes it is just saying, hey, are you getting defensive right now? Or, hey, I noticed myself getting defensive. Or sometimes it is just a hand on the leg might help. So we want to work out what that actually looks like for each person.

Samia (54:27)
Right.

Yes.

Definitely when, when I get upset, the last thing I want to hear is, you're getting upset or you're getting angry or why are you acting this way? So there's definitely things to avoid.

Michelle Garraway (54:55)
Yeah, and an important piece about

coming up with those, what those strategies are gonna be together is that it gives the person permission to say that to you. So that comes back to what we were talking about with the brain about why agreements are so good is because I have already bought into this. I've said, yes, this is what I want from me. And I know that it's also safe to step into this arena and say something to you because you and I both know that this is what we said is good for both of us.

Samia (55:02)
Yes.

yes. And I can see this working for not only for romantic partners, but really any relationship that you have, we were talking about taking it to connections and not just the romantic partners. And I think a lot of the tools that you've given and a lot of the skills that you've talked about are skills that we can use in any of our relationships.

Michelle Garraway (55:37)
Yeah, I think there's two parallels. at work, I used to do strategy and all that jazz and projects. we would do, sometimes in projects, they do a post-mortem. So they look back at what went well, what didn't, how can we do it. I recommend a pre-mortem. So we ask the questions, yes, okay, if we execute this project and it is the best thing ever, we do everything, what will have happened?

Samia (55:43)
Uh-huh.

Okay.

Michelle Garraway (55:57)
And then we can make a list of, know, we'll meet all our timelines. We'll have communicated regularly, et cetera, et cetera. OK, if this thing blows up and it's the worst project ever and we completely fail, what will have happened? You know, we didn't meet regularly. We ignored the budget, whatever it is. You can apply. that's how these principles can work in a work setting when it comes to a family. OK, we are taking a family trip to Disney World. If this is the best trip we've ever had in life, what will have happened? So we just did this. I just went on a

Samia (55:58)
Right.

Yeah.

yes.

Michelle Garraway (56:24)
two week vacation with just my partner, no kids, it was amazing. And we sat down and said, what will have happened? And so through that, we were both able to discover that we both did not want to be over-scheduled. So it'll be the worst trip ever if every single day we have somewhere to be, we never feel like we can relax. OK. So we know that we need to protect buffer time to just do nothing and come up with those things. Yeah. So you can apply it everywhere.

Samia (56:39)
Yes.

Yes, what a wonderful idea. I love that. Yeah. And you know, now that we're living in this very fast paced, this made me think about it when you talked about, you know, having every moment accounted for. We live in this very fast paced and highly connected world too. But how do you feel that technology and our modern stressors are impacting relationships?

Michelle Garraway (57:09)
I think the one thing that jumps out initially is that technology gives a false impression of connection. So we can think that we're connected with people. talking to people, I'm sending memes to people, I'm chatting with people, but I don't actually have, I'm not touching anybody's nervous system. I'm not actually connected in that way. So it's easy to think that we are connected and we're interacting and we're getting the things that we need in relationships, but we're not truly, we're not actually.

Samia (57:25)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (57:33)
The other thing is it's again the ease that comes with it is it's easy to fall into those things and prioritize those things and put them above your couple bubble and have them kind of flood the space and take up too much space. And then I look at another side of that is around.

Samia (57:46)
Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (57:50)
that these things are all thirds, like the concept that I mentioned before, a person, place, or thing outside of your couple bubble. So if you as a couple are mismanaging a third, it's going to interfere with your secure functioning. So if when you go to bed at night, you're both scrolling instead of doing that check-in, then you've put that above your couple bubble and you've lowered the priority of your relationship.

Samia (58:10)
Got it. Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

And I think this is probably gonna hit home for a lot of people because I'll tell you, I hear about a lot of people saying, yeah, we go to bed and we're just scrolling through our phones and, you know, and one that's, that affects the way that we sleep, that affects the way that we feel, you know, it puts a lot more stress on our body. But also we have to think about how that affects the relationship too.

Michelle Garraway (58:36)
Yeah, yeah, people have to take opportunities to turn towards. You know, you've asked a couple of times, what are the practical things that people can start doing right now? Turn towards as much as you can. So that's the concept from the Gottman's around turning towards and turning away. It's actually going around on social media right now, the bird theory. people are, yeah, which is actually about the squirrel. That's the animal that they use, the Gottman's. So the Gottman's talk about it as if ⁓ turning towards and have a sensitivity and a connection around it. If you say to your partner, look, a squirrel, and your partner says, where are,

Samia (58:43)
for

Yeah.

⁓ yes.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (59:04)
Oh, that's interesting or thanks for telling me or anything like that that's turning towards your partner and attuning to them and engaging with them. If you say, oh, look, a squirrel and your partner's like, I don't care. Why are you telling me about squirrels? That's turning away. So that's a bid for connection and opportunity to turn towards. And when you're looking at technology, you can think about that. Like, have I actually turned towards in any way or am I just turning towards my phone? Yeah.

Samia (59:07)
Right.

Yes.

All right.

Yeah.

Right,

Okay, speaking of technology, are there any other, aside from technology,

triggers that cause couples to lose that

Michelle Garraway (59:40)
abandonment. So any sort of threat to the relationship, really. So people who bring up divorce when they're in couples therapy, one of our primary things is to say stop that immediately because you're threatening the safety of the relationship and you're going to trigger that. Abandonment wound immediately. So any threats to the relationship. Rejection and criticism. if there's more, if the...

Again, the Gottman's, we're talking about the Gottman's a lot The sentiment override. So if the general tone of your relationship is criticism and it's not one of appreciation, ⁓ we see that a lot. Rejection, abandonment, I think unfairness. So people feel like a relationship is really imbalanced. It can lead to a feeling of kind of overload or being taken for granted. Those are the common things we say and that will just escalate.

Samia (1:00:02)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Michelle Garraway (1:00:25)
Well, that one doesn't escalate typically. That one tends to lead to just contempt and resentment and disconnect quietly over the long term. Those are the ones where you get that the divorce came out of nowhere. But meanwhile, they've been disconnected for a long time.

Samia (1:00:36)
Yes. Okay.

you're talking about abandonment, feeling being taken for granted. And it made me think about couples who are navigating long distance relationships.

Michelle Garraway (1:00:49)
Hmm.

Samia (1:00:49)
You know, they might have demanding careers, maybe parenting, know, adjustments, etc. What do you think matters most when somebody's trying to navigate a long distance relationship?

Michelle Garraway (1:00:59)
I think you have to be very intentional around finding ways to have each other feel seen and heard and valued. So you have to make like treat it like a business plan and say what are the tactics, what do we need to execute, what do need to do about this. So whether that's ⁓ good morning and good night text messages, whether it's scheduling regular phone calls, whether it's scheduling a virtual date night, things like that. It's impossible without

Samia (1:01:08)
Okay.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (1:01:26)
sitting down together and coming up with a plan for like what do want our relationship to look like? How are we going to feel like we're still in a relationship?

Samia (1:01:35)
Okay,

good. Okay. I'm gonna bring it back to something that we talked about at the very beginning because you mentioned that it's better for couples to come see a therapist when things are just starting to get a little bit difficult rather than waiting till things are falling apart.

What would you say are some early signs that a couple can recognize and that can let them know that they can benefit from therapy?

Michelle Garraway (1:02:00)
I think if you're having the same fight over and over and over again, yeah, but if you've had the same fight five times, just come to couples therapy. You need to learn how to fight so we can talk about that. If you are avoiding each other, definitely come to couples therapy. If you're fighting more often or they're getting more intense, as soon as you see the intensity come up, you gotta come ⁓ because things are going in the wrong directions.

Samia (1:02:04)
Okay.

⁓

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (1:02:26)
It's never too late, it's just always better to come earlier. Yes. And I do think too, if you, there's a few specific circumstances where I think people absolutely need to come to couple therapy, even if they feel like everything is going great. So ⁓ if you are in a second marriage, if you've been divorced and you have a new partner and things are going really great, I think most people who have gotten divorced and who go to therapy themselves and then get a new partner are pretty on.

Samia (1:02:30)
Okay.

Okay.

Michelle Garraway (1:02:50)
on board with therapy, they're like, this is what do. But just to put that out there, if you've been divorced, that is a huge trauma attached to relationships. And even if you've done your work and you feel good, come on back and let's talk about how we can make the new one go well. If you're blending families, absolutely, I think people should come to couples therapy to sort that out. And then I think everyone before they get married, I think most people have an unrealistic idea about

Samia (1:02:51)
with

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (1:03:13)
the amount of work that it takes for a long-term partnership to work. And most people don't have like the really concrete plan, steps, concepts, actions that PACT has in relationships. just, we all just do our best. So if you wanna have a long-term partnership and you wanna get real about what it's gonna take, come to Couples Therapy.

Samia (1:03:16)
right.

Yeah.

great. I love those if somebody's trying to choose a therapist, what should they look for in a therapist and a couples therapist?

Michelle Garraway (1:03:37)
So it's so important that a couples therapist is actually a couples therapist. So couples therapy and individual therapy are two completely different skill sets. I do both and they're very different. A couples therapy is a different method, it's a different approach, it's a different mindset. So like I mentioned earlier, PACT is very unapologetic in that we're about the relationship.

Samia (1:03:43)
Okay.

Yes.

Michelle Garraway (1:04:00)
So it does not work if we try to apply an individual therapy method to couples therapy because I'm working on this person and this person where what I wanna be working on is the relationship. So that's the most important thing. So some of the common, the most common couples therapy methods that you'll see are emotion-focused therapy EFT, which is attachment-based, the Gottman method, which does a lot of the really good practical stuff. There's relational life therapy.

Samia (1:04:11)
Yes.

Michelle Garraway (1:04:25)
and then PACT are kind of the big ones. Family systems therapy can help with that too. Interpersonal psychotherapy too. But they have to be specifically trained in couples work and be an actual couples therapist, not just a general therapist. In my opinion, you cannot make headway or significant or transformative change in couples work if you're not working with attachment. So I would ask the couples therapists if and how they work with attachment. And then the most important thing across all therapies is that you like the person.

and that you feel comfortable with them and you're gonna enjoy working with them. And then lastly, it's important if you have any specific presenting issues, if there's addiction, if there's mental health concerns, things like that, the therapist needs to be specifically trained in working with those things. And an ethical therapist will ask you about those things and if they're not, they'll refer you out to someone else who is, or they might ask you to do individual therapy along it, substance use, things like that.

Samia (1:05:12)
Okay. And do you think that's a really helpful thing to do to have individual therapy alongside couples therapy? Yes.

Michelle Garraway (1:05:19)
Yes, of course I'm biased and I love therapy. Yeah, and I do,

and we do, ⁓ you know, I can only encourage people to do that if I feel it would be beneficial. And I do keep in mind, it's a lot of work, therapy is a lot of work, and especially couples therapy, it brings up lot of feelings, a lot of emotions, it takes a lot of resources like we talked about. So you want to be mindful about what your capacity is. Therapy is not cheap. So you want to keep that in mind also. And you can kind of flow in and out.

Samia (1:05:30)
No.

Michelle Garraway (1:05:46)
of the two of them. Some people are all in on therapy and just do individual therapy forever and ever and then pop into couples therapy when they feel like they need a tune up. But therapy is good. It's good thing. I'm very biased. Yeah.

Samia (1:05:53)
Okay.

Yeah, I agree. We're a little biased, but yes, definitely.

Yeah. And I'm glad that you mentioned the relationship because when you're going to do therapy, you're going to be very vulnerable and open and talk about things that are really difficult to talk about. finding that person that you feel like you can really connect with makes all the difference in the world, because if you feel like

Michelle Garraway (1:06:10)
the

Samia (1:06:21)
the person on the other end is going to judge you or not be helpful, or you might not be as honest and open and then not get as much benefit from therapy. And what research tells us is that the connection with your therapist is almost as important as the training that they have or the methods that they use for therapy,

Michelle Garraway (1:06:43)
Yeah, yeah, just having someone who you feel safe with can go a long way. We do hear a lot of horror stories. People come to us after trying a few couples therapists, or someone will be doing individual therapy for a while, and then they'll bring their partner in to work with that therapist, and that always goes bad. So it's really important to keep couples therapy as couples therapy on its own thing. Yeah.

Samia (1:06:46)
Yes.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Okay. And as you reflect on the couples that you have worked with, what have you learned about love, about connection? What surprises you the most or what surprises people the most?

Michelle Garraway (1:07:17)
The first thing, I mean, I'll start negative. There's a lot of people in relationships who don't like each other. ⁓ And if you don't like each other, you should not be together. So that's it. There's that. ⁓ But that really like, you know, we'll do case consultations among the team. And that's one of the questions I was like, do they like each other? And they'll say, yeah, they like each other. They love each other. So if you have that, you can make it work. I think it has been surprising and

Samia (1:07:23)
Okay.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (1:07:39)
what I've learned through my training and through my experiences, it really takes a lot of intentional work to make a relationship work, a long-term relationship. You can do it for a short while, ⁓ but a long-term relationship through the phases, takes a lot. knowing that, like knowing about love, really, realistically, long-term relationships are a lot about a lot of really practical logistical things that are not sexy and not exciting and have absolutely nothing to do with love. ⁓

Samia (1:07:49)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Michelle Garraway (1:08:07)
But

that's the truth about what it comes down to when it's about long-term relationships.

Samia (1:08:12)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

you know, in therapy, we often ask the miracle question, right? If you could be anywhere you want to be or if life was exactly how you want it to be. So I'm going to ask you something similar. If our listeners practice just one thing consistently, after today's episode, what would you want that to be?

Michelle Garraway (1:08:33)
I would want everyone to just practice connecting with themselves in the sense of actually slowing down, being present in the moment and understanding what's happening inside of you. That's it. I think so many people, most of us are walking around disconnected from ourselves and it makes it really hard to be in relationship if you don't have that presence, if you don't know what you're bringing, what you're throwing into the mix.

Samia (1:08:44)
Yeah.

you

Michelle Garraway (1:08:57)
And it's an act of self-compassion and self-love to slow down and say, hey, what's going on inside of me? And understanding what that is and then tending to that. So that could change the world on its own if everybody did that.

Samia (1:09:02)
Right.

I agree.

I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us. And finally, I want to ask you, I know our listeners probably loved everything you had to say today. So where can listeners find you if they want to get a hold of you, if they want to learn more about your work, where should they go?

Michelle Garraway (1:09:24)
So our website, therelationshipagency.com, it's for the clinic, but I'm on there and there's lots of blogs and we have free resources on there and you can learn about what I do, which is the intensives. And then I'm also on Instagram at relationships.r.everything. And then I would add too, if people wanna learn more about PACT, there's also the PACT Institute that has tons of resources out there. PACT Act's PACT Stan himself actually offers a Wired for Love online. It's a six week couples experience. So that's a nice like soft entry.

into couples therapy that you can do virtually at home together.

Samia (1:09:55)
⁓ perfect. Michelle, thank you so much. Thank you for such a thoughtful, grounded, and deeply human conversation that we've had today. I really appreciate the way that you brought neuroscience and attachment and real world relationships and challenges and everything together in such an accessible way. I think our listeners are really going to benefit from this conversation. And I just want to thank you so much for.

for having this conversation with me.

Michelle Garraway (1:10:24)
Thank you. I appreciate it. I love talking about these things and I loved your questions. They're also thoughtful and I hope that people really can find some things they can take away from this.

Samia (1:10:33)
Perfect

and I will add all of your information to the podcast Description so that if people want to find you they can just go to the description and find everything they need to know there All right, and to our listeners if today's episode resonated with you I invite you to reflect on how your own relationships support your overall wellness

Michelle Garraway (1:10:45)
Perfect. Thank you.

Samia (1:10:58)
⁓ You can find the links as I said to Michelle's work in the episode description Until next time stay well and keep being your best

Samia (1:11:13)
Thank you so much for tuning in to Thursday Tea with Sami, your sip of wellness and mental health. I hope that today's episode gave you a little inspiration in your journey. Remember, your journey to wellness starts here. I would love to hear from you. Drop me a comment letting me know how you liked this episode or what topics you want to hear more about. Until next time, stay well and keep being your best.