34 Weeks to Go: Great Hedge of India (Book)

Can one book change everything? For Hannah, it did! Join her and Joel as they uncover the bizarre story of the Great Hedge of India, a 4,000km barrier built for a salt tax! Now, they're retracing its steps, armed with a few old maps & alot of hope.

Learn about the lost history, the challenges of mapping a forgotten route, and how you can be part of Project Salt Run!

We’re currently raising money to make this expedition possible. EVERY Pound raised on Crowdfunder gets us closer to being able to reach India. 

Hannah will run 100 marathons in 100 days, covering 4,200 km, to raise £1,000,000 for 1% for the Planet on Givestar.  This journey is a powerful testament to the potential within all of us to make a real difference.

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In the face of unprecedented environmental challenges, Project Salt Run aims to inspire action through an extraordinary journey of transformation. Hannah Cox, a sustainability advocate with Indian heritage and a first-time runner, will undertake a life-changing challenge across India, following the historic Inland Customs Line. 

This colonial-era boundary enforced a devastating salt tax, causing immense suffering and millions of deaths, but has been largely forgotten from history.
By retracing this route, Hannah seeks to honour its legacy and transform its meaning, inviting others to discover their own version of extraordinary. This journey is not about guarantees of success—Hannah faces the real possibility of failure—but it’s a powerful reminder that taking bold steps, even in uncertainty, can inspire meaningful change.

(You may notice a change in the episode countdown. Due to a miscalculation, the numbering has been corrected to reflect the accurate episode order. Sorry for any confusion!)

Transcript

And in fact, his inspiration for writing about the Great Hedge of India, which is what we're talking about in this podcast episode, we're talking about the history of the hedge of the Inland Customs Line,(...) is that he only found out about it because he picked up a book in a second-hand bookshop in 1995, written by a British army officer in the 19th century, talking about the Inland Customs Line, and he was like, "What's that?" So he was the one that started putting the thread. And the result of that was five years of intense research and the Great Hedge of India book. Today on the PSR Podcast, Hannah and myself introduce you to the book that started it all, as we deep dive into the Great Hedge of India and how it became a bit of a possession. But before we get into that, just a quick one from the people making this possible. If you're trying to make a difference in the world through charity, try GiveStar, the fundraising platform of choice for charity runners and thousands more. With just a few clicks, you can create pages supporting up to four different charities. Take Tap to Pay contacts as donations, track your progress, and share your story with friends, all on their free app. Download GiveStar today to make your fundraising count. This episode is also supported by 1% for the planet. Our planet gives us everything we believe in giving back. That's why we work with 1% for the planet, who help support businesses and individuals committed to donating 1% of their revenue to environmental causes. Join the movement and make a difference. Learn more at 1%fortheplanet.org. And now, onto your podcast.

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Welcome back to the Project Salt Run. My name is Joel Chevaillier. And I'm Hannah Cox. Today, well, for today, let's start with an update. How is training going? How is training to run 100 marathons in 100 days? How's that whole thing going, Hannah? Well, that whole thing, that whole thing, it's going well. I've got a new pair of trainers I'm very excited about.

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So one of the things, obviously, that you need to have is a good pair of trainers. And lots of people are like, "God, you're going to get through so many trainers running that far." And I thought, "I want to go through so many trainers. I want to go through one, maybe two pairs of trainers." So did a bit of research on what's out there. And there's a new brand of trainers called Normal, who reckon they can do about 1,000 to 2,000 kilometers. Most trainers say about, basically say you need to replace them way sooner than that. I think it's a marketing ploy.(...) And I was like, "Do you know what? I'm going to just try and get one pair that lasts me the whole time. Maybe two, you know, like if they get wet."(...) Anyway, I bought this new pair of trainers because mine are getting a bit ropey. And they get really wet. They're not very waterproof, the trainers I have. And they are really good. Especially being a chest-toed. It's like nonstop rain, right? Nonstop rain. And the brand is a B Corp and they're 1% for the planet. Oh, that's great. Wow. Just looping all the connections in there. Looping them all in. And they look really cool too.

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How long are you supposed to be able to get out of a pair of shoes?(...) I think... Or running shoes, I guess. I mean, it depends who you ask. I mean, I'm part of the Green Runners. So we're like, keep your shoes for as long as you can, patch them up, all that kind of stuff. Everybody plays out of them. Every bit of life out of them. But a lot of people like replace them after like 100 miles or 300 miles, which actually isn't that long. I mean, even the ones I've got that I bought last year, I've had over a thousand kilometers out of them and they're still pretty fine. Yeah. They're ultra. They're a good brand too. That's good. They're just the ones the guys sold me in the shop. I knew nothing about them.

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He was like, you need these. I was like, OK, thank you. I also have the image in my head. Mind you, the last time I met all the Green Runners, there was also a guy there that was repairing shoes, wasn't it? Or he was like Frankenstein shoes. He was... Yeah, yeah, he was like putting patches all over them. Yeah. Yeah. What was... Do you remember the name of that? Darryl. Darryl. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. It was just really cool. And it made some cool shoes as well, like really unique designs. Anyways, yeah. It's the way to do it. It's the way to do it. Reuse. So not Darryl, it's Darren. Sorry, Darren. Darren.

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About that, though, like back to training. So all I've just done is talk about kit. I haven't got a lot of kit. So that's something we'll be looking at. We'll probably chat about that another podcast. But generally, the training is going well.(...) It's really hard to fit it in around work, but I don't have a social life. So that is helping enormously.

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Well, didn't you say you were going to join up with some running groups or something like that? I have. Yeah, I've joined

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I go to a little social out there, you know, I have. I go to one club with Natalie, who's also part of Project So on on a Wednesday when when we're both around at track brewery called One Foot Forward. And then I've just joined the Manchester YMCA Harriers, which run on a Thursday.

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And they do track night on a Tuesday as well. And they I do a 10K look with them and they're all really nice. So, yeah, I'm I have got some running friends now. Any run group that leaves from a brewery sounds great in my book. Yeah. And the YMCA Harriers, they once a month, they all go to the pub together and you can take chips from the chip shop next door into the pub with you. Oh, sounds glorious. There you go. It's pretty good. That's why they keep me running. Right. So I have. Yeah, let's get into it. Sorry. Getting into today. So the whole thing that got you into this mess,(...) the it's a it's a little book. It's a little book with a big meaning. The Great Hedge of India, which was written by Roy Mox, Moxham. If that's if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And and you came across this book. When was the first time you actually saw this thing? I'm pretty sure it was 2014.(...) My.(...) For those of you that don't know, my dad passed away in 2011 and he was born in India. So I got really interested in reading about colonial history around that time. Because I didn't know much about that, about any world family history, really, on that side of the family.

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And it turns out after reading books on colonial history for three years, you start reading really weird books on colonial history that no one ever heard of, which is how I found this book.(...) Not proud to say I found it on Amazon. I think I just looked at colonial history books or something. And I was like, oh, here's one I haven't read. Oh, so it was literally like you were just kind of looking through colonial history books. And I was like, oh, here's one I haven't read. Through colonial history books.(...) Wow. Because for me, I never I never really.

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There's not a lot of history about or at least from a Western perspective, there's not a lot of history of India from that era that, you know, we get to learn about or sources that I really know about. You know, whereas I think it doesn't get taught in school. Yeah. Therefore, I think the source, the sources are there. It's just you have to go look for them. So the book when I read the book, it was it's 2014. But the book had actually come out in 2000, which which for me, when I then read the story was the most mind blowing part of it. The fact that that book had been around for 14 years and like no one had. There wasn't more everybody to know about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then also the top to top that off, like Roy, the writer, the author of the book, he's he's written so much stuff about about India as a whole. Like he has the the tea, the tea trade. He has a whole history on the tea trade.(...) And a bunch more. I mean, he's obviously documented so much more than fun. Yeah, he's he's been he's been prolific. I can't say that word prolific, prolific on the writing about India. And in fact, the his inspiration for writing about the Great Hedge of India, which is what we're talking about in this podcast episode, we're talking about the history of the hedge of the inland customs line is that he only found out about it because he picked up a book in a secondhand bookshop in 1995, written by a British army officer in the 19th century talking about the inland customs line. And he was like, what's that? So he was the one that started putting the thread. And the result of that was five years of intense research and the Great Hedge of India book. Yeah. And I did like from what I read onto it, he was he was spending, you know, he was doing loads of research flying out. And I mean, this wasn't, you know, like the normal. This is back in the 90s. So hugely different time in the areas that he was going to. So but yeah, he was jumping back and forth between the UK and then which is, yeah, like an insane amount of work. So so you've you found the book, you you read it for the first time. What was your kind of initial reaction when you learned that there's this massive thing that's just kind of been forgotten? Just absolute shock,(...) to be honest, absolute shock, because I thought I knew

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about a little bit about colonial history at this point. None of the books I'd read had mentioned this hedge.(...) And I was like, it wasn't difficult to ignore. You know, it was over 4000 kilometres long, spanned an entire country, you know, caused the death of millions of Indians. And I was like, where where why are there no books about this? And also, while we are not taught about colonial history in UK schools, we're kind of fed this sort of like. A fallacy that

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the British went to India and provided, I don't know, railways and infrastructure, and weren't they lucky that we went over there and educated them with those things? And that's just not the case of how it went down.

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So to then find out we did we we collectively as a British citizen, they can find out that happened. And like no one's talking about it. It's just to me was absolutely insane. Still insane. And because this so the the the reason this hedge was built was over the taxation of salt. Yeah, so it was to enforce a salt tax, which actually they they ended up enforcing it differently towards the end, which is one of the reasons the hedge disappeared. But the salt tax was in India till the 1940s. You know, we're talking about this is what Gandhi this is what Gandhi marched against the British for. Like literally because of the hedge. So I'm just kind of like you think it was something, especially something that cut the you know, the entire region in half. Like you would think, yeah, an entire an entire exactly. So it's like, you know, if we think about the great world of China, for example, if you said to someone, like, tell me some thing like big sightseeing things you'd see you'd want to go see in China, they'd say like, you know, terracotta army, you know, panda, the great world of China. Most people would say the great world of China. So big walls, Hadrian's rule. Offers, like, you know, big barriers and lines and stuff like that. We we know them well.

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These big roots, the silk quote, root 66. I'm just saying, like kind of famous sort of like roots and journeys and stuff. And I'm like, how did this massive one disappear? Yeah. And when we say like like it stretched across the entire region, it started in modern day Pakistan and then and then basically ended in Kolkata. Well, it ended in it ended in a Rissa, which is like near to Kolkata. Basically, we're just running further than that. But yeah, basically started in the Himalayas. So if you say for those of you that aren't amazing at geography, we're talking about it's been the the entire like basically through the biggest width of India(...) right from the kind of top left hand corner down to kind of the middle of the middle, the right hand side. I'm a very good description. You can go to our Instagram page and you can see a map of that. Yeah, there you go. You can see a map of the actual line. But also the book is so fascinating. There's so much of it that's so interesting as far as like how they man the the hedge, you know, when it was going, because I mean, it wasn't going that long, was it? How long was actually there for? So it's starting in around the 1840s and then it actually was kind of disbanded on the first of April 1879. So really like 30, 40 years that it kind of existed. So not a huge amount of time, but a long enough amount of time.

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Bearing in mind, it was in hedges are manmade things. So that hedge would have needed to be maintained. And at its peak, around 14000 British army officers manned this hedge to ensure that people couldn't cross the boundary without paying a sort tax. And I think one of my favorite things, like to learn about it, was how they were trying to man it and how like the different officers they had and all the problems they had keeping officers on the lines. Yeah, because no one wanted to do that job. No one wanted to look after the hedge. No one wanted to be away from their families.(...) You know,(...) the pain wasn't great. People got sick. You know, it just I mean, it was yeah, the whole thing was just insane. It's all over the place. Also, of course, they were dealing with the backlash from all the locals because, you know, when you're restricting salt, which is unfortunately very necessary for life. Well, yeah, exactly. And, you know, at its peak, you know, that salt tax, you know, it was while the hedge was there at its peak, it was around two months wages for a laborer. But the actual peak of the salt tax, which was kind of back in the 1820s, it was about half a year's wages for people. So it's a huge amount of money people are paying to basically(...) have something that kept them alive. Bare necessity. Something that literally, yeah, people were scraping off the the rocks near the ocean and whatnot. OK, so so basically the hedge was built in 1940s. It ended in about 79.(...) So what what from it, from your understanding, what kind of came of it from that point on? So just the salt tax continued to be enforced in different ways.(...) Essentially, when the hedge was disbanded in in 1879, it happened just after there had been a huge famine throughout the whole of India. So there was lots of outcry, even from British army officers. If you if you look through the archives in the British library, there's some quite vocal British kind of governors who are going over to parliament in the UK and being like, we don't think this salt tax is is the best. How we're managing this salt tax is the best way we should have a sugar tax or we should be taxing people in a different way.(...) This is not good for the people of India. So it wasn't that like everyone in the British army was thinking this was a good idea. You know, there were people who were working it who were like actively saying to the British government, this is not good.

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Yeah, there was a six to eight million people died as a result of the hedge and other, you know, there was massive droughts and famines not helped by the fact that also no one could get any, you know, get any salt and could afford anything through the customs barriers.(...) And so then the hedge was abandoned. And then after that, a salt tax continued to happen throughout the country. Just it was collected in a different way. Yeah, with the so. OK, so so kind of switching gears here real quick, basically going from the actual hedge itself to you finding the book and trying to kind of bridge that that gap in between there, I guess, like how did the book hit you on a personal level to to to make you come up with this concept to try and retrace it? Yeah, I've been asked this question a few times, and I don't think I really know the answer to it because there was just something about the story of it like the the scale of.

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What was created by humans to hurt other humans.

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For such a long period of time, you know, 30 odd years, which at the time of reading the book, that's how old I was. And then for it to be forgotten about as a piece of history, it was it almost felt disrespectful of everybody that had been hurt by that. And there was just something about the story that made me want to connect with it just on a on a more personal level. Like, you know, as I said, my dad's from Calcutta at that point. I didn't know where the rest of the family were from in India. I still kind of finding out that information.

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So it wasn't even near where, like my family was. From it was more just that story of almost being being, I think maybe something around being brought up believing one thing. And then suddenly they're being irrefutable proof that thing you believe the whole life is not true. And I think that had happened to me a few times as an adult, was it as a person where something I believed for a long time. And then someone's got that's not true. And I mean, like, oh, my God. And it was just one of those moments of like, oh,(...) British colonial history isn't all great.(...) And then it's like, here's some really awful stuff that happened.

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And it's like, just to remind that you can't just trust what you're taught. You actually got to always go out and find out information for yourself.

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And I think travel is a huge and you'll know this as someone that loves to travel. Travel is a huge part of that, isn't it? It's often pushing you against the maybe the subculture or the conscious kind of thoughts you have around cultures and other people and what things are, and then you have to actually go and experience things to actually understand what a place and what people are like. And I just thought I want to.

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I really want to go and see if any of that hedge still exists. Yeah. And because obviously, like as a kid, you always have a different like view of things, you know, that compared to as you grow as like an adult. But I guess would you say like kind of the historical narrative

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from from what it was when you were a child to kind of now? How would you say that's kind of changed? Well, I think, you know, the narrative is we don't always learn from our mistakes. And we often the story that we hear from history is from the victors.

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And I think because, you know, another part of the story of the hedge is it probably a lot of we say 14000 British army officers. You can guarantee there was tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Indian laborers who's actually roles it was to maintain that hedge for those British army officers.

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And not only that,(...) those stories are lost because of partition, you know, because of the British leaving India, because of lots of paperwork being lost, because there's, as you know, from our research, there's pretty much nothing existing at the moment in the UK

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with with any kind of documented evidence about what was done during this period in India. And there's none in it. And there's I don't think there's much in India. So therefore, how do we keep telling the story when the people that are affected aren't here anymore to make sure we're not making the same mistakes again? Like you were saying, as well as, you know, kind of the history being written by the victors, like, you know, because it does make this the whole planning, especially the mapping of it, quite awkward, because like we were saying, you know, it actually begins now in modern day Pakistan and then runs its whole way through. One of the most fascinating things, I think, looking at the old maps from like the 1840s up to now is how the names have changed. Do you like that's one thing I didn't really I couldn't I didn't see that anywhere in the book or, you know, trying to do some research on to try and figure out why. Do you have any idea of why the names have changed so drastically? I mean, like, like some of them seem to be relatively similar, but the spelling, like a really great example is like called Kata. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So a couple of things there. So full context, everybody listening to this, Joel, like me, has started to become obsessed by the hedge.

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And in Roy's book, he talks about all the places in that he goes to do his research. So almost like he's done all the like heavy lifting really for me and Joel. We know now where to go to find the maps and the documents that exist. Because essentially Roy sifted through them all for us. And we've been basically retracking it back down. And there's only two locations really that we found or that I've found any, which is the British Library and the Royal Geographical Society. Yeah, there's there is some stuff at the I think it's called the as an Asian and African Studies Society or something somewhere. And I was talking to them as well about seeing some maps and some documents there. But I just haven't had a chance to go back to London yet for that.(...) But it's nothing new than what we don't already have, if that makes sense. They've just got some similar stuff to look at.

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But anyway, Joel is referring to that there's one map

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in the British Library that has the whole length of the Inland Customs line on that you can kind of go in and have a look at. And you're right, the names on that map are not the same as the names that currently exist in India. But there's a few reasons behind that. One is it's likely that the British just name stuff. Whatever they wanted to call it, as opposed to what it might actually be called, that it was lost in translation from the Hindu or the Urdu, you know, or the local language, them saying something. And whoever was creating the map, the British maps, just writing something else that was maybe easier to understand or pronounce.(...) So there was an element of potentially that happening. And there's also the element of places being reclaimed by India

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when the British left to reclaim the names of those places that the British had named.(...) So there's a lot of, you know, it's not like one size fits all like. Yeah, all the names change back on this state. Yeah, it's like it's also like their names might not have changed. It just they might have been recorded incorrectly. And also places won't exist. So if you think about that customs line existing because it was a long existing, I don't know, roads, routes and stuff. When the customs line gone,(...) roads and routes will change because the barrier that stopped them going certain ways doesn't exist anymore. So also once that's gone as well now, right? Like, yeah, like from from the research that we found, I think, especially in the book, from what I was looking at,(...) Roy only actually found, I believe, two different places, maybe more. I could be wrong.

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But yeah, like we don't even know if those even those two locations still exist. So I guess that's something we're going to have to find out in person. Yeah, it's exciting.

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But yeah, no, it's been really fascinating, basically going back over and remapping, you know, Roy's old route, because the names are so different. Obviously, things have changed drastically. Whole new cities have been put into place.(...) New Delhi is about five times as big as it used to be from way back when.

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And it's been I guess my big my biggest struggle with it is is honestly just trying to make sure that I'm putting the names in properly because some of the locations when I was initially putting it together were

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were in completely different locations. And then I realized that's just because I was going through Google and I was finding they were finding the closest names to it. So suddenly I'd be like way up in the north when I'm the line supposed to be somewhere in the south. So, yeah, let's let's let's talk the let's talk the listeners through this a bit. So Joel has been tasked with the thankless task of actually getting that map that we found in the British library and creating an actual route for us to travel along when we were in India at the end of this year. So the big thing we're doing, which is really cool, is we're making it digital. This is the first time it's been made digital.(...) It is. If you if you literally if you Google the great edge of India, I think there's like 10 web pages. But there's also the same thing. So it definitely will be the first digitally re creation of that. And what for you? Why do you think that's so important to well? Well, I guess it's just kind of the the modern, you know, figuring out the modern way or like it's putting it into a modern platform, you know, simply simply like having a picture and then just drawing a line on it doesn't cut it anymore. You know, like for all, you know, basically all modern use. We need to have pins and exact locations. And I mean, even especially this for the run, you know, it's it's great that we're we're really looking into details because obviously we don't know what terrain you're going to be on. So there's a lot of data that we're going to be taking back in.(...) But considering that it was pretty difficult to actually just to figure out the exact line of where, you know, began and where it finished, now we should. This will hopefully will be contributing to really putting on the map. Ha ha pun intended.

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You know, this this actual route and where the hedge actually was, because it's quite vague if you're not following exactly where, you know, Roy tracked everything down.

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So how are you going? How are you going about mapping it?(...) So, yeah, we've been taking we've been going to British Library and the RGS. I'm actually going back to double check to make sure that the both maps match up. But basically, there's been two major maps from the East India Company where they registered the customs line.(...) And basically, the line basically goes in between villages. So they they did kind of try to make like direct routes in between each and basically just going through and have pinned every town that's there. And now it's just running a line where we think the hedge would have been, which is pretty difficult because a lot of the areas is agricultural.

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So, of course, they've they've tilled a lot of the what probably used to be the hedge back into the ground.

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So, you know, even if you're looking for some it's not not quite there. But yeah, we're basically just linking everything up into through Google,(...) Google Earth and now working on Komoot, which is a running app that we're we're trying to get that all laid out with. So, yeah, it's basically it's basically maps from like 150 years ago with landscapes that don't exist anymore. Yeah, literally from 1840s, which is the coolest thing ever to research. Like it's so cool to like it blows my mind being able to just walk into the British library and just be like, yep, can I have these ancient maps, please? And they're like, yeah, here you go. And no, no gloves, no nothing. You just get to play around with it. And they don't like you're allowed to have a pencil. Like they can't bring a pen, but you can have a pencil. And like even that makes me nervous having a pencil on the same(...) table, these ancient maps. Yeah, they're ancient to me, I should say. I'll share actually when we bring this when we bring this podcast out, I'll share on my Instagram some of the videos. And I don't know if I'm allowed to do that, actually. Yeah, you can do personal ones. You can do personal ones. Everything, everything's fine to be doing off your phone.

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But if you bring in a big old clunky camera, they might get a little weird about it. Yeah, just to get so so people can kind of see what we're talking about. These they're like huge.(...) This one map in the British library is is actually compromises of rollout, I think it's like 12 or 14 massive sheets, isn't it? The one that we're talking about.(...) So what's what for you has been really the biggest kind of challenges doing that part of work? I think honestly, it's been the culture change. Like I don't because I know very little about that region of the world.

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So understanding the names and like the differences and kind of translating it because a lot of a lot of the old maybe I'm flipping this over my head, but a lot of the old village like names would end in like an eye or an ear or something like that. And then now it's like the opposite. So like back then it would end in an eye. Now it ends in a knee or vice versa.

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And yeah, I mean, that's just kind of scratching the surface with with those those little bits and then also the the amount that has just changed geographically(...) because these were all different regions, right? They were all different climates. So like you said, started in the Himalayas and then went down into desert territory. Then it would like as it goes further south, it gets a little more tropical.(...) And yeah, so trying to make sure that we're on the right track and that it's actually being, you know, that I'm actually doing due diligence in mapping it has been the most kind of nerve wracking to double check and make sure that everything's kind of on the same page. That's always an interesting thing about old maps and stuff, because I mean, you're from the States, so you've got loads of places named after British places. Oh, yeah. Cambridge, Massachusetts. So uneventive, like even in California, because I'm from California, West Coast, right? We just named everything after Mexican places.

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So or like there's this year in the that is which is which is, you know, that's like my home territory. I guess that's where my heart lies. And and I realized like we just named that after the Sierras in in Spain. It's just like, come on, we could have been a little more inventive.

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Come up with some new stuff. Come on, guys. Exactly.(...) But I guess that's one of the but you know, that's that's going back to like naming places differently, like where where, you know, the states existed before colonialism.(...) So everything had different names as well. So again, all names would have changed. And a lot of this comes from this is kind of going back to the story of the hedge, which is if people have not got the ability to to write down or record in in a physical way beyond stories,(...) their their lived experiences or the names of places, it's like, how do we how do we remember them? Yeah, definitely. You know, I always find that that's always been quite a fascinating thing for me about like how how we remember histories and remember stories. Well, it's just whatever is being written down and told to us with we kind of just accept. Yeah. And actually, that's just not the case.(...) And and so kind of your whole idea about running this is basically to to reenergize, like bring this back, you know, bring it back into to the forefront of of just general knowledge and start some of the history, especially the colonial history, you know, perspective.(...) But why why? And I know we've talked about this before, but I wanted to get this in this episode. Why why run it? Why did it why did you go from from something where you could have just driven driven the damn thing to a physical challenge? Well, I think Dan touched on it in his episode, didn't he, about I mean, driving it just kind of wouldn't feel connected to the place in the same way.

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Almost too fast.(...) Dan talked about a lot of walking pilgrimages. I've done a lot of walks and hikes and I do really enjoy that that way to travel. And I'm sure over those hundred days, I'm not going to be like speedy, Gonzales running, you know, the length of the hedge.

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But I think running it was it was the physical challenge of it.(...) Felt important, almost like there needed to be a bit of blood, sweat and tears in(...) recognition of what it did. I don't really know how to describe it. It almost felt like actually when when Dan suggested it as a run, even when I wasn't a runner, it almost felt in a weird way. It felt a bit more respectful to do it in that way, maybe walking as well. But it felt like being actually connected to the ground.

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Physically was important to as a sort of like spiritual pilgrimage, I guess. And I think the physical suffering that will probably go under for me is almost like a bit of a way in which to show a bit of respect to the generations that experience that experience suffering as a result of that. Would you say your ultimate goal is to kind of have this,(...) you know, with raising awareness to it would be to try and get this in like history books and kind of get more people to understand it? I think it should be taught in school. You know, I think it should be taught in school. I think it should be it represents to me such a obvious example of taking more than we need without thinking about others. So let's fast forward to you've done it. You've completed it. You know, we're celebrating at the end. We get back to the UK.(...) What is it that you what do you think we could do to kind of, I guess, approach like(...) organizations to try and kind of push this forward to get people to kind of recognize it? Yeah, I was thinking about this actually, about how we kind of amplify the message of what we're doing. So obviously, we're feel like in the purpose driven business community, which I've been in for the last, you know,(...) five odd years, you know, I'm pushing the message in that place as in like as businesses, as people that make money, we need to think about how that money is made about how we're affecting others.

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As, you know, athletes and as endurance athletes, we're kind of speaking in that space to other runners already. I think there is, I think the missing element for us at the moment is like how we speaking to maybe more historical societies, maybe more educational institutions around what we're doing and why we're doing it. I think that's probably something we should be thinking about, as in you and me, Joel, like over the next couple of months, like the British Asian Society, speaking to the Royal Geographical Society about what we're doing a bit more,(...) just seeing how we can share some of the historical facts of the of the hedge that we're finding as we go along, but also seeing how we can use what we're doing to create social value, I think. Well, and another big thing as well is I feel like it's not just kind of forgotten and unknown through history here, but from what it sounds like, is it sounds like, especially when Roy was researching the whole trip, it sounds like he was having a hard time finding local Indians that knew anything about the customs line over there.(...) Yeah. So it sounds like it's kind of on both ends, right? Yeah, exactly. So I think it's I think it's talking about it more and, you know,(...) using this as a lesson to ourselves and to others about thinking a little bit more about how we're behaving.(...) Yeah.(...) So it's been you've been training for this for how long now? It's been... Oh, it actually feels like quite a long time now. So we're going to be in March soon.(...) Yeah. About 10 months. 10 months. So you've been training for 10 months. So that's not nothing. That's not nothing. That's a fair bit. I guess what would you say is like the progress that you've made, like from the beginning, you know, were you able to run a 5K in a certain amount of time? Like, how would you say you've changed personally?

(...)

Well, I mean, physically, I'm obviously fitter.

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Yeah, from a physical point of view, probably is quite obvious. I've definitely lost a ton of weight just through just running so much.

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I think it's been more mental.

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I never have always got tired. I was busy all the time. And I feel like when people told me I was busy 10 months ago, I'm like, I can't be that busy because somehow I've managed to earmark in training for this crazy race into my life.

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I think actually, for me, it's been more transformative in the fact that Project SORT 1 is a team. Like it's not like my, you know, my part of it is I'm the one doing the running, you know, and helping amplify the message that way. But Project SORT 1 really, from the beginning, was a team effort. You know, it was Dan's weird belief in the project before it kind of started. And then I think it kind of snowballed around October, November time last year, which is when I completed my first Ultra. And me and Dan were like, whoa, actually,(...) you can do an Ultra in five months. Maybe you could actually run this hedge. Maybe we need to start taking this seriously. And then we started planning with Nina, and then you and Becca came along, and then Alex and Nat have come along. And now I'm like,

(...)

it's like there's a group of us believing that we're going to do a thing that we could not do without each other.(...) And that,(...) I mean, there's something quite special in a group of people all believing something positive.(...) And it almost, I don't want to say like, manifest dictation, whatever, because I feel like, oh, come on. But it's more like,(...) the more we all believe we're able to do it, the more we've started to like, have opportunities for that to happen. It's like where we're focusing our energy as a collective, we're actually able to do things that I wouldn't have been able to do on my own. And I'm certainly only able to do as part of this group. But it feels quite like, whoa, like, if we can do this, what else can we do? It is cool working with such a weird collective of weird, wonderful people. Yeah, but you know this from like, doing your last trip in the school bus, right? You spent a year planning that trip, you then spent a year doing that trip.(...) And even just talking about it before you did it must have been like, yeah, we're just going to like, drive this bus cycle all the way down. It was really odd, like talking to people, we would like kind of just be like, yeah, this is what I want to do. And they just be like, your life is different.(...) Yeah. But when you first say it, it's like a simple thing to say, like, we're going to buy a bus and we're going to drive it down a really long road. And that, you know, it's, you know, but then you just focused all your energy on that, and then you achieved it. So I think for you,(...) having been able to do something so massive and incredible and amazing like that, and all the other mayhem trips, you've walked into Project Sort 1, like, yeah, I can probably do this as well. Whereas other people, if it was just their first ever thing they'd done that was a bit beyond the limit of what they thought they were able to do. But I think we are a group of people who think of where we don't really see where that limit is. We're like, let's try and exhaust every single avenue.(...) And then we know we've reached the limit. But why not? Why not just kind of aim for that? Like, we still don't know how we're paying for it. As you all know, from episode whatever, two or three.(...) We're still broke.(...) Actually, that's why this podcast is here. We require your assistance.(...) We do. Actually, I feel like that's also, we're not begging for money enough.

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Well, yeah, and also this is it. We're doing this like all of just like pure,

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like interest in a subject, right? Like I've been interested in subject and then it sat on the side for ages. And so for me, it doesn't feel like work. It's like, I'm getting to do a thing that I'm really interested in. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so it's just so cool to be able to go through all this this historical,(...) these historical documents and the book. And by the way, we still haven't managed to get in touch with Roy. We've been trying to reach out to Roy Moxham for ages. So if anybody listening to this has any kind of contact with the man,(...) you know, we would please, please send us a message.(...) It's one of those I'd love to just talk to that guy in person because we've both spent so much time looking over his notes and, you know, basically re-researching everything that he's done. But as a good segue, if somebody was listening to this Hannah that wanted to get involved, what would you say is their best course of action moving forward? Yeah. I mean, if you're listening to this story and you're like, for some reason, I'm also now obsessed with this edge,(...) which I'm sure is 99% of you,(...) then I would suggest reading the book, buying the book, supporting Roy. It's called The Great Hedge of India,(...) delving into it a little bit more.(...) But if you want to be involved in the project, definitely like there's so many ways in which people can be involved. We've got, you know, ones going up along the UK, around the UK in the lead up that we're wanting people to join us on.(...) We're specifically looking for two, three things at the moment, I think, which is one, we're looking for businesses and individuals that are able to help us fund the expedition. At the moment, it's all self-funded and times are tight. You know, I think we've not got much money in the bank to make that happen. So it's really self-funded at the moment. So anyone that can help fund the trip to make it happen believes in what we're trying to do, get in touch. We're also obviously trying to raise a million pounds for 1% for the planet. We do like the kind of proper fundraising for that when we start running, I think in October. But if you're a business that is interested in learning more about 1% for the planet and doing certified giving through your business, which is what 1% is, I'll put the link in the show notes, but I'd happily talk to anyone that's interested in exploring that as an option for their business because we really want businesses to sign up to 1% for the planet. I've been a member for years, I think it's just an amazing thing for you to do as business leaders.(...) And then thirdly, it's like how can you help us amplify the message of what we're doing? Are there any community groups you think we should be speaking to? Is there any

(...)

events that you think we should be at? Is there any organizations that you think should know about the projects and what we're trying to do? Whether that's educational, historical,(...) ones with bottomless pits of ethical money, just let us know. We just want to hear from as many people as possible. And honestly, it's surprising what comes up in those conversations when you just start talking to people.(...) We've met some absolutely incredible people that we're actually going to be interviewing over the next couple of weeks on the podcast who in some way or another serendipitously have popped into our lives, haven't they really? In the last six months, Joel and we're like, wow, we need to get you on the podcast and tell the story about how you're on our part of Project Salk1. So I'm really excited about that too.(...) Because I know everyone's really enjoyed listening to just me and Joel talking the whole time today. But we're hoping to bring other people involved. And actually next week, maybe I'll have to edit this out if I screw it up, but next week we'll be having Becca on hopefully.(...) And then many more to come. We're really planning on having loads more people from not just the running community, but from sustainability.(...) And hopefully we're going to get some people diving into a little bit more of the history. Cultural identity is just huge, isn't it? It's a huge part of why we're doing what we're doing. And exploring that I think will be really interesting. No, that's something that I've been having. It's been such a real joy to be able to go through and kind of learn about and just have the excuse to be a huge nerd in a library and dig through all this history. It's just awesome. No, I feel like we've given you a little bit of an overview about the Great Hedge of India, the Inland Customs Line.(...) I know we've touched on it a few times in the podcast, but we're talking about so many different things about running and about how we're funding the expedition and all these other things. I think and introducing you to the team that perhaps maybe it's got lost. And I think something that I talked about with this with Joel this week is stopping telling people I'm running across India, telling people that I'm running the old Inland Customs Line. And I think even just that shift in how we're talking about it, especially if we're probably going to be starting in Pakistan, which is not India.(...) I think(...) that would also be telling the story more and probably being a better explanation to people because when people meet me, they don't immediately identify that my father is from India. So

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it's weaving that into the story too. Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for listening. This has been the Project Salt Run podcast. I am Joel Jourrier. And I'm Hannah Cox. And we'll catch you guys next week. Thank you. Bye.

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That's our show, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. We will be putting together a new episode every week until Hannah starts the run. Once again, a big shout out and thank you to 1% for the planet and gift star for their amazing support, the Better Business Network, and of course, Better Not Stop. Please make sure to check out all the links and everything we included in this conversation, as well as if you wanted to get involved in our bio. Make sure you follow along on our social media account, especially on Instagram to keep up to date at Project Salt Run. The podcast is produced and recorded by myself. And until next time, safe travels.