Parenting in a Tech-Driven World with Katie Colgan

In this episode of the Entropy podcast, host Francis Gorman speaks with Katie Colgan, an application security professional and advocate for women in tech, about the critical issue of online safety for children. They discuss the various threats children face in the digital world, the importance of parental involvement in cybersecurity, and the challenges of balancing screen time with real-life interactions. Katie shares insights on the potential dangers of child-focused devices and the implications of monitoring children's online activities. The conversation emphasizes the need for open communication between parents and children regarding technology use and the importance of setting boundaries to ensure a safe digital environment.

Takeaways

• Parents should start discussing online safety as soon as children use technology.
• Supervision is crucial as children engage with tech at a young age.
• Understanding the apps children use is essential for parents.
• Monitoring devices can lead to trust issues between parents and children.
• Privacy concerns arise when third-party companies monitor children's data.
• Children's online interactions can expose them to risks from unknown users.
• Balancing screen time with real-life activities is important for children's development.
• Parents need to set boundaries around technology use for their children.
• The decision to step back from a career can be driven by family priorities.
• Empowering children with knowledge about tech is vital for their safety.

Sound Bites

• "Kids are not built to live on their screens."
• "You don't know who works for that company."
• "We are there to help them become functional adults."
• "Tech is wonderful, but it brings problems."
• "It's a conversation about boundaries."
• "You're giving the world access to your child."

Transcript

Francis Gorman (00:01.83)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Entropy podcast. I'm your host, Francis Gorman. This is episode 11. If you're enjoying our content, I'd really appreciate it if you could like and follow the show wherever it is you get your podcast from. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Katie Colgan, an application security professional, a champion for women in tech, and a role model for anyone balancing a demanding career with raising a family. From pausing her career to focusing on her children, to staying ahead of industry trends, Katie's journey is a masterclass in resilience, passion, and intentional living. Katie, it's absolutely fantastic to have you with us here today.

Katie Colgan (00:32.376)
Thanks, Frances. I'm glad to be here.

Francis Gorman (00:35.11)
Katie, you have an angle that I've been wanting to talk about for quite some time, which is protecting our children online, child safety, awareness for parents. What are the biggest threats that kids face today?

Katie Colgan (00:49.998)
I think the biggest threats are going to be the lack of supervision when they get into tech. So a lot of young people, particularly five, six, seven year olds have their own technology. And that leads to a lot of parents being comfortable with their kids being online on different types of applications, things like that.

they may not know themselves what's possible within those apps. If they're just sort of giving a brief look at it and going, yeah, okay, go ahead. That kids then go and do things that they don't necessarily know what to do with. A lot of it coming down to like adverts on seemingly benign games. Ads can be one of the biggest opportunities for kids to see things that they shouldn't be seeing, particularly at such a young age.

Francis Gorman (01:50.204)
Off the bucket at Katie, what age do you think parents should start talking to kids about online safety then? What do you think is a suitable bracket?

Katie Colgan (01:57.294)
as soon as they're able to use tech. Personally, my view would be that as you as a parent use tech, talk to your child about how you're using your tech so that you can demonstrate that you're using social media in a particular way or you're seeing something that you don't like like an advert and you can explain this ad is trying to sell me something or a phishing email or a message that looks a bit funny.

actually showing kids how that works from day one means that that's going to be in their brain as they get older, that it's not a new experience for them when they're faced with it themselves.

Francis Gorman (02:42.075)
I think that's, that's solid advice. Do you find parents are receptive to discussing cybersecurity around their children or are they dismissive? I find personally, because I work in the field, you know, I lecture and then realize that's not the right approach. I should be more receptive. And I think, I think as a cybersecurity professional, we have to be conscious that we probably see the ugly.

Katie Colgan (03:03.03)
Yeah.

Francis Gorman (03:11.097)
more than most people and it's not something that they're consciously thinking of. is the messaging, when you speak on these areas, do you find people are understanding that they want to listen or are they dismissive of the content? How do you feel that that lands?

Katie Colgan (03:30.742)
Yeah, I think it depends on the person and what their views on tech and also just what their experiences have been with tech because not everyone has seen the ugly in the online world. And so if you have never yourself seen something particularly malicious or really heard much about the dangers of being online, you're going to be a bit more like, it's fine. And I think that's part of the problem being that

A lot of people don't know what they might face, particularly if a parent uses tech in one way. kid is unlikely to be using tech in the same way. So they're going to see different dangers. And so the actual knowledge of a parent knowing what apps are available and what those apps can do, like does

an app have inbuilt chat features where you can talk to someone that you don't know, that you're not friends with, is that something that exists on a different app that you've maybe never used? It's something that some parents will just not be aware of and that's a big educational piece for parents because I have had some parents who very much agree with the sort of aspects of

We need more education and other parents who are just sort of like, yes, we do some of the things like checking out like common sense media before they will use an app with their, their kid have an app or watch a movie or those sorts of things. But be very sort of relaxed about other things. But yeah, it's a really hard balance between being in the industry and knowing so much about what does happen.

online versus someone who's just using technology. It's similar to like a dentist who sees all of the horrendous things that happen to someone's teeth. But 99 % of people will never see that. So they'll have that experience of you must do this, this and this to make sure that your teeth are as healthy as possible. I think that could be, you know, the pinch of salt with a cybersecurity professional who sees everything, how much of that is actually directly impacting

Katie Colgan (05:55.85)
if anyone in their day to day is an important thing to consider when talking to parents about online safety.

Francis Gorman (06:04.013)
I think that's, I think you touched on something there, which is the, online chat features. And this is something I find particularly frightening with some of these applications that, you assume you give your child something that is focused at children and it is a certain age group and that only users of that age are interacting with them. And, know, they're innocent and harmless, but we know

the tech companies are very lax in terms of verification. You can set up an account, a Facebook account, and then use that as an identity provider to set up a whole string of accounts off the back of it with no verification or validation. So I could be a predator in that up masquerading as a 10 year old boy or girl. And nobody is the wiser unless you're really looking at an apps that self delete messages or, know,

high messages subliminally within the application as well. It's a mind feel really in some of these areas.

Katie Colgan (07:06.358)
Yeah, definitely. mean, even as far as even if it's not necessarily direct messaging, even leaving comments can be a place to be communicated with. That may not be something you would immediately identify as a risk. But the direct messaging within an app that's aimed at kids, one of my

sort of

Concerns about people focusing into apps that are aimed at children is that piece on being able to verify who you are based on something else. is no local, you can't use your driver's license to verify your ID online. That's something that is verified by the government to say, yes, this is valid. So when you have an app that is aimed at children, the likelihood is that that's a place where

predators, people who want access to children are going to focus their attention. And that makes it really difficult to, for me as a parent to trust that with that app with my child, because there isn't that security in knowing that the people actually on the app are also children.

Francis Gorman (08:32.923)
It's a really uncomfortable concept when you start to talk about it like that. And you look at your kids and they're precious. then somebody once said to me, you used to go out in the world and maybe get bullied. And now you can be bullied at home in your bedroom at nighttime during the day. It follows you around. So in terms of screen time or

Katie Colgan (08:38.136)
Definitely.

Katie Colgan (08:42.669)
Mm-hmm.

Francis Gorman (08:59.501)
allowing a child to have a device, do you think there's a healthy balance in terms of, you know, being present with reality versus spending all of their time looking into their phones?

Katie Colgan (09:06.702)
Thank

absolutely. mean, kids are not built to live on their screens and I know the world is moving towards tech. There's no doubt about it. You need to know about technology to exist in the world at this point. So much of government support and applications and things are all moving online. But there is a whole world out there of things that are outside a device.

while saying that speaking on a computer feels a bit funny. But a lot of things are migrating onto apps that are keeping you pinned to your phone that you could be doing not on a device. I, as a personal experience, I had been playing Candy Crush for years from like they introduced the app.

And I've recently deleted that because it was taking up a lot of my time of doing that instead of anything else. But I've recently been playing Sudoku instead on an app, but they've gamified it to the point that I then don't want to put it down. Whereas if I was using a book of Sudokus, I would do a couple and then probably get bored and go and do something else. But because they've gamified it by adding other elements to it.

They're hooking me in to staying on my device and I'm a 32 year old adult and I find it difficult to put my phone down. I can only imagine how hard that is as a four, five, six, seven, 18 year old also trying to manage that, that pull into a device.

Francis Gorman (10:50.383)
And I think that's something that doesn't actually get enough awareness. had Louise McCormack on a couple of episodes back talking about ethical AI. we we ventured into this whole concept of the psychology behind the applications that are driving you, know, the constant notification, you know, you leave the phone down, there's a there's a buzz, there's a there's a draw and it feeds on your emotions. It pulled you back.

depending on the application and social media companies are experts in this field for making sure that they get your time because the app is free, but you're giving them your data. You're giving them your attention. That's where the cost comes. The cost comes in terms of time, you know, and time is precious. We only have so many hours in today, so many days in the year, so many years in our lives and yet we give them.

into these devices and at a cost of our social surroundings. It's a really slippery slope. And Louise said something on that episode that has stuck with me ever since. She made a statement that once you give a child a device, you potentially lose the control over the type of person they're going to become. And she made an analogy that a social media company or another

technology provider may just put them in a test group, you know? So if you're gonna have a good child, if you're gonna have a bad child, if you're gonna have a child that is defiant, that's no longer up to you. You're now being led by the technology that they're consuming. And that was a terrifying concept to hear out loud. And I stop sometimes and look around and everyone...

is looking in their phone. you go to a train station or an airport, we're all guilty of it. We're looking in a device, you know, we're flicking. All you're seeing is the light shine up in your face. People aren't interacting as they used to be. And our children are watching us and they're just repeating that behavior when we give them a device. So we can't, we can't wag our fingers and say, now, now, child, you know, why are you behaving like this? they go, well, daddy, mommy, this is

Francis Gorman (13:07.887)
This is what you do every day. why can't I? So it's a reflection of self to an extent that we need to be conscious of. Katie, I want to talk about devices for kids. Things that we think actually help protect them or make them safe. There may be a darker side to those devices. Do you want to give me a view on some of these areas? I know it's something that you're passionate about speaking about.

Katie Colgan (13:33.999)
Yeah, so there are so many devices out there that claim to be protecting kids, the idea being that it's a device that's for keeping kids safe with kids in mind. And I genuinely believe that the people who start up using these, making these devices have that intention. I can't possibly imagine that they don't. However,

When you put the name of a kid safe or a kid focused device, where it takes where it records any kind of data, that becomes a target. It's something that says this company has lots of data about children. And we as a third party to your family, you don't know what is happening in this company. So there's quite a few.

different companies like there's Pinwheel, the Gab phone, there's the Bark phone. There are three of the companies that I've noticed recently that have kids' phones or watches, some variation of a things like an Apple watch, like a tech watch that is more limited in what the functionality could be. But they're all aimed at allowing parents to have some kind of control monitoring.

of what their kid does on that device. So things like the watches would be about sort of tracking where your child is, you've got GPS, which you can use WhatsApp for that as a tracking thing. Most apps now have some form of GPS, that ability. And so it's all about the technology. Things like the watches would be limiting, like that they can only message certain people or phone certain people.

And they all have varying degrees of what they do. Most of it being about knowing where you're at least where the device is. In theory, your child is with that device and also then being able to sort of manage what they do on that device from afar. Because typically these devices come with a parental overview or some kind of connection for the parent with the device.

Katie Colgan (15:57.71)
What I have seen a lot of this being is some of it's monitoring 100 % of you can see everything that's on your child's device, which I understand why parents may want to see that because they'll miss things. You won't be able to see, look over your child's shoulder all day every day to see what they're doing. And so if you can take a quick nose at who they've been texting, what they've been saying, that kind of thing.

I can understand the desire for that, but when it comes from a place of...

Katie Colgan (16:36.274)
losing the connection with your child, you're also losing a bit of the trust with your child. Particularly if the only thing, whether you tell them that you're monitoring their device is one thing. Like there will be some parents who may not actually say that there's certain technology on their kids' phone, which immediately when their child finds out they're being monitored, that will immediately break their trust because

they think you as a parent don't trust them, which if you didn't tell them you're monitoring them, you don't trust them. And I understand that you shouldn't trust a child on a device completely independently until their brain is developed enough to have some amount of responsibility with that tech. But one of the things in particular for me is

The phones that... messages, particularly like private messages between your kid has to say your kid has this phone, they're talking to their friend. If that device is monitoring those messages for cyber bullying, for potentially harmful conversations, whether that's things like going down routes of...

drug use or suicide, things like that. They're then going to ping that to the parent and say, we find this piece of information that you may want to know about. And one of the companies that I mentioned, they do that where they analyze that kind of data with their own AI. And within their FAQs, they mention about privacy for children.

but they're a third party analyzing all of that information from your child's phone. They have access to that information and you don't know who they are. You don't know who works for them. And even if the creator, the founder and the C staff or whatever C level staff of that company are all 100 % behind keeping kids safe, you don't know the other 50 to 100 people that work for that company. They're obviously

Katie Colgan (18:56.46)
You would like to think they're being validated in some way and you'd like to hope that they all have good intentions. But we know that's not always going to be the case. And the privacy from for that child has been put in the hands of someone that you don't know anything about all of these people who work there and you don't know what they're doing with your child's data. So even though they say they have they care for the privacy of the child from the point of view of the parent. So you as a parent can't see

every single message that your child sends, can't see everything that they are monitoring, only when it comes up with something potentially dangerous, worrying that you need to know about. They send you a little screenshot of what that is. They name that in the sense of privacy for the child, but that's privacy from the parent, not privacy from their company who is monitoring all of the things that your child is doing on their device. And you don't know how they store that.

You don't know who has access to that, but yet they're not allowing you access as the parent. So that's one sort of really important thing to me is that they're naming the privacy of the child, but not from themselves. But also those sorts of devices, it's really, it has another moral implication.

in that your child is going to be using certain apps. Like for example, if it allows you to use WhatsApp, you have agreed to the terms and conditions of that device monitoring that account. But anybody who that child talks to is not also being monitored. And they didn't agree to that terms and conditions. They agreed to WhatsApp's terms and conditions, but not that phone's terms and conditions.

So as much as you're trying to protect your child, and obviously if they were talking to someone who was a predator or was they were in a dangerous situation, you'd want to know that. But what about the aunts and uncles who are also talking to that child? Their privacy is being invaded by that company as well, because they didn't agree to be monitored that way. And so you're going down a slippery slope of you're trying to keep your child as safe as possible, but you're

Katie Colgan (21:20.662)
Unless you're having those conversations with your child as often as you can about how to use tech as safely as possible, they are at risk of when they're on tech. And if you even know all of those things, then you're cleaning up after the fact. You're not stopping them from getting into those situations. You're knowing about it afterwards and having to then go and tell your child, we've seen that you've been talking about this.

As much as I think that there are some kids who will be receptive of that, yeah, my parent wants to help me, I really would love to know how many times that's actually made things worse for that child, rather than actually help them because knowing information that they didn't realize their parent would know is something that could be really devastating to the child, especially if it's maybe their friend who's been talking about something and they've been really...

maybe their friend's been really depressed and they're feeling very vulnerable and then your parent knows that that's happening. That sets a really bad standard for your own child's privacy for them and their relationships.

Francis Gorman (22:38.859)
It can also be misconstrued by the parent, know, somebody says something in passing, I'm so depressed or, you know, and all of a sudden it's something it never meant to be because of this, this oversight piece. But you've, you've touched on layers of abstraction there that are extremely complex in terms of consent for children who have not yet formed.

Katie Colgan (22:41.742)
Mm-hmm.

Katie Colgan (22:45.292)
Mm-hmm.

Francis Gorman (23:06.479)
the proper cognitive ability to make certain decisions for themselves, yet all of their data and decision points are now being extrapolated out to, assume, some third party cloud environment that's a little bit ambiguous in terms of who can access it, what they can do, et cetera.

And if I was to look at this from a threat map perspective, I now have a cohort that I know are within a certain age group that I can target if I get access to these devices. So if I had sinister intentions, I may use that as an avenue. in some ways, and I have a problem with anything that's internet connected because you just cannot trust it, you know, a vulnerability.

credential leak, you know, you've probably used the same credentials to set up the kids app as you used on 20 other accounts, you know, log on to have I been pawned, stick in an email address and see if it's already already been compromised is that password out there. So you're you're potentially creating an attack path to your children, which is a which is a frightening prospect if it all goes wrong. I'm very conscious, The parents may feel overwhelmed and. When we have these blunt conversations.

Katie Colgan (23:56.28)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Francis Gorman (24:21.453)
It may to an extent instill fear or panic, but we live in a world where digital is reality and everyone is connected to an extent that that's not going to revert anytime soon. So from a parent and a cybersecurity professional to people feeling overwhelmed in how do I deal with this?

My friend's kid has a phone, he's got a tablet or whatever, you know, they want to play this game online, but I'm not letting them and those pressures on the parent to not make their child unhappy, to please the child when maybe that's not the best thing to do. What advice would you give Katie to a parent that's just struggling to get a handle on how do I set some boundaries here?

Katie Colgan (25:17.186)
Yeah, so I think it's a hard one in terms of within your own family, not all things work the same for every family. So one family's decisions to let their child use certain technology, certain apps, that's within

Katie Colgan (25:41.198)
That is something that obviously does happen. It happens with tech, happens with clothes, it happens with board games, it happens with sports that kids play. I am going to sound probably really horrible right now, but we are not there to please our children. We are there to help them become functional adults and make sure that they are.

equipped to deal with the things that come up and that you've made a very valid point. Even if you were to completely keep your child away from technology, the friend down the street has it. They might not tell you that they're on their friend's phone. They might not tell you that they're seeing things at a friend's house. We can't hide from the problems that tech brings. Tech is wonderful for certain things. Like we have obviously all decided tech is the way forward because it's so handy.

We can have conversations like this from miles apart. We can talk to family members, we can share videos, we can play games with each other. But it is a really hard thing to do to set those boundaries and say, here are my reasons for why I don't think this is a good idea. Having that as a discussion with your child as what is it you actually want to do? Is it the game or is it the friend?

because we can set up a play date so that you can go and play. Obviously, depending on the age of child play, it may not sound quite right, but we can make sure you're able to see that that person as often as we can. Or is it the game? What is it about the game? Bring the kid, your kid into the conversation because it's not just about you, but you are the one that is there to protect them from things that they are not yet capable of understanding. And so it's

very much it's a conversation. It's here's my boundaries, come up with some arrangement for, okay, this is an app that you want to play with your friends. You can play it with loudspeaker on in the living room while we're all present. That would be a way of finding a middle ground to be able to allow them to have that access without allowing them free rein because kids need boundaries.

Katie Colgan (28:01.024)
and more so than anything on a piece of tech that's not just giving your child access to the world, it's giving the world access to your child. And people don't think about it that way.

Francis Gorman (28:12.635)
And that is, that is stark, know, when you say it like that. I also find Gady and I've got two kids, one can't walk or talk yet, he's only 11, but one is big and bold, he's heading for the famous five. And I find on wet days, you know, when the board games run out and you let him watch a little bit more telly than he should, et cetera, the mood is always far worse, you know.

easier, easier to run straight to an argument, more of tankerous, know, contrary, overstimulated or under stimulated. I'm not, I'm not sure which one it is, but there's definitely a change in behavior. So I'd hate to think what it'd be like if I sat him with a tablet all day and just let him play at it and see what his, his, his mood is like. I'm fortunate enough. I live in the countryside so I can kick him out the door and get him to run around the field or something, you know, but I can understand if, if you're, if you're, you know,

Katie Colgan (29:02.328)
Yep.

Francis Gorman (29:08.557)
in a situation where parents are working or there's people calling over and you just need to keep the kids quiet for a while to have a grownup conversation or whatever. It's very easy falling into that trap of the iPad or tablet or whatever. Which brings me to my, I won't say final question, but one of my last questions. You made a very brave decision to stop working in a field that is very lucrative at the moment to go.

Katie Colgan (29:16.142)
Yep. Yep.

I'm sorry. Yeah.

Francis Gorman (29:37.69)
mind your family? What was the what was the driver there? And, you know, it's it's it's admirable. I've as I said, I've 11 week old at the moment so I can fully appreciate the pressures that being a parent brings. And, you know, it's not all rosy. It's it's it's very stressful. And there is definitely an intense workload that you need to figure out, especially when it goes from one to two. And I'm sure it gets worse when you go two to three or three to four. I hate to think what it looks like if you go to five. But it's it's

Katie Colgan (29:53.23)
the

Katie Colgan (30:03.832)
you

Francis Gorman (30:07.575)
It's a really admiral decision to step out of a field that has high demand at the moment, such as cybersecurity to go parent. Was there any particular driver there or did you just need to take some time to look after you and to help, you know, bring your family up in the way you want rather than being stuck in the rat race?

Katie Colgan (30:27.502)
Yeah, mean, personally, I fell into cybersecurity. wasn't my, I want to go and do cybersecurity when I got the job in cybersecurity. It was many years ago. It was a big accident, really. So it wasn't originally a career of I want to do this and I want to get to this point and I want to do all of that. I've never been a career driven type of person. So kids was always my goal.

And whenever it came round to talking about going back to work, I just didn't want to be splitting my time with my then not even one year old son with work. And I knew that from my own personality, I find it very difficult to balance that kind of thing. So when I was working, I would get into the office as early as possible.

so that I missed the intense traffic or the intense train journeys and then would come home in as little of the chaos side of travel. And that's not possible when you have a child. Even with working remotely, I did a job for a while where I was completely remotely and my mental health took a time because I wasn't seeing people and I could only imagine trying to do that while also having...

to look after a child in and around that. And so I was very lucky that my partner has a good enough job that he could manage to bring us in an income and I could step back and stay at home with my kids. I now have two kids. They're both preschool age, so like not school yet, but we have also in that time from me leaving work decided to home educate. And so we also have that side of things where that's

particularly difficult to do if you're also working in nine to five. But I don't.

Katie Colgan (32:33.28)
I don't feel like I have.

I like that I have that choice. Not many people have the choice to be able to completely step back. Like looking at how much it was going to cost for nursery for one child was astronomical and I couldn't imagine going back to work to pay someone else to look after my child, to not have very much extra and have not seen my child. So for the fact that people do feel they have to do that because they just need to be able to live, it's really hard.

to not have that as a decision. So I'm very lucky and I know I'm very privileged to be able to make that choice in the first place. But it's, I still feel like I'm able to keep within the industry, at least a little bit, because I do have a desire to make sure that my kids are as safe as they can be when it comes to tech. My husband works in cybersecurity as well. So I still hear a lot of the, did you hear this happens? And you know, all of the crazy stories from the

what cyber attacks happened recently, that kind of thing. And I'm also part of the B-Sides Belfast organizing committee. So I get to see a lot of the stuff from that point of view of just being in the industry. So I still like it. I still like learning about it. I still want to know what's happening. But at the minute, my focus is more on the how to protect the next generation and how to give them the tools to protect themselves.

And a big part of that for me now being in the home education community is that a lot of those parents want me to help their kids understand how tech affects their lives and what they want, like sharing pictures with their friends could end up as without being what I always feel like a party pooper kind of thing. When I say be very careful about who takes your picture, be very careful about asking for permission before you take someone's picture.

Katie Colgan (34:34.818)
Like with my kids, as often as I can, I ask them, is it OK for me to take your picture? Because I want them to grow up knowing they have a right to say no and that their image is theirs and it's not something that someone should be able to just take and use what they will. So, it's been interesting making that decision.

Francis Gorman (34:58.425)
Look, Katie, I think it's very admirable and you're forging your own path and you're far, you're really are contributing back to the industry even if you don't think you are. So I think you need to give a shout out to how can people find you online if they want to keep up to date with your advice and where can we find you?

Katie Colgan (35:17.804)
Yeah, I am on social media as CyberSecMama on Instagram and Twitter and Blue Sky and also TikTok, but I don't post that often, but I'm hoping to try and get more out there and LinkedIn as Katie Colgan. But just as and when I can, I try and put something out when I've got time around the kids.

Francis Gorman (35:45.87)
Okay, that's perfect. We'll send people over to CyberSecMama to look you up and I'm sure there's gonna be lots of valuable insights coming out of you. I can tell already you're not gonna lay idle. You have a lot more to give back to the industry and I really appreciate you coming on to the Entropy podcast to talk to me. I think it's been a really valuable and insightful episode for people, especially parents to listen to and I really do appreciate taking time out of your busy day.

Katie Colgan (35:59.797)
definitely.

Katie Colgan (36:13.986)
Thanks very much for having me and hopefully it wasn't all doom and gloom. Thank you.

Francis Gorman (36:18.243)
I don't think so. Well, if people are depressed, you can leave a comment below the episode. Thanks a million Katie.