Building Trust In The Digital Age with Robin Dreeke

In this episode of the Entropy Podcast, host Francis Gorman speaks with Robin Dreeke, a former FBI special agent and expert in human behavior. They discuss the importance of trust in building relationships, the journey of Robin from the Marine Corps to the FBI, and the art of recruiting spies. The conversation also delves into the impact of technology on trust, strategies for fostering team cohesion, and the five principles of trust outlined in Robin's work. In this conversation, Robin Dreeke discusses the importance of kindness, generosity, and effective communication in building trust and unforgettable connections with others. He emphasizes the need to embrace challenges as opportunities for growth and the significance of understanding human behavior, especially in the context of trust and violence. Robin also addresses the current geopolitical climate and its impact on trustworthiness, providing insights on how to navigate these complexities in personal and professional relationships.

Takeaways

• Trust is the number one skill set in building alliances.
• The foundation of healthy relationships is trust.
• Recruiting spies is about understanding their challenges.
• Technology can erode trust if not used wisely.
• We thrive in deprivation mode, not in comfort.
• Teams need to understand the overarching 'why' to be effective.
• People need to be seen and heard in conversations.
• Seek the thoughts and opinions of others to foster collaboration.
• Ego suspension is crucial for healthy dialogue.
• Generosity in communication fosters better relationships. Start with kindness and generosity in interactions.
• Being generous with time can create meaningful connections.
• To be unforgettable, focus on how you make others feel.
• Embrace challenges as opportunities for growth.
• Trust can be rebuilt, but it requires effort and time.
• In a chaotic world, simplicity in relationships is key.
• Understanding the arc of behavior helps predict actions.
• People do not suddenly become violent; it's an escalation.
• Healthy relationships are free from drama and chaos.
• Open communication and transparency are essential for trust.

Sound Bites

• "It all starts around that age."
• "I wanted to become an astronaut."
• "You really don't recruit a spy."
• "Start with kindness and generosity."
• "Be generous with your time."
• "Every day is a great gift."
• "It's all about the arc of behavior."

Transcript

Francis Gorman (00:01.448)
Hi everyone, welcome to the Entropy Podcast. I'm your host, Francis Gorman. This is episode 13. If you're enjoying our content, I'd really appreciate it if you can like and follow the show wherever it is you get your podcasts from. Today's guest has spent his career fine-tuning the science of human behavior. Robin Dreeke is a former FBI special agent and former head of the FBI's counterintelligence behavior analysis program. He's a master of building trust in the most high stakes environments, whether it's recruiting foreign spies, decoding human behavior, or training executives on how to lead with influence, not authority.

Robin is also a best-selling author with numerous titles to his name, including Unbreakable Alliances and The Code of Trust, just to name a few. He's also the founder of People Formula, where he teaches organisations how to use trust as a strategic asset. Robin, it's a pleasure to have you here with me today.

Robin Dreeke (00:45.614)
Thanks, Francis. Happy to be here. And out of all those things, I always got to throw this in there. The number one skill set in the world to use trust for in building unbreakable alliances is with my kids. My two adult kids, strategize these things every single day for great relationships in life, for all aspects of it. So thanks for the great intro.

Francis Gorman (01:04.861)
must get you over to talk to my four year old. I don't think he...

Robin Dreeke (01:07.598)
Yes, it all starts there. That's where the life arc begins. You know, what a great segue, you know, because that's our life arcs. And we discover the life arcs and that, you know, that spark and inspiration for who we are today. It all starts around that age. You know, the things that we do that allow us to feel good about ourselves, feel safe and feel seen when those things that they're experiencing at that age is the things that we're going to repeat throughout our lives. And so if they're good, healthy things are going to be good.

If there are unhealthy things, are going to be lessons learned and things will work on the rest of our lives if overcoming. So that's a great age.

Francis Gorman (01:44.754)
It certainly is a great age. They're full of love and admiration one minute and they're screaming and shouting at you the next. So I'm working on building different strategies to cope with it, but he's a great little fella. I can't give out about him.

Robin Dreeke (01:59.808)
It's awesome. Being dad is a number one title in the world that I, I, I, I telling my son this the other day. So my son's a Marine Corps fighter pilot and my daughter's a labor and delivery nurse. They're both in their mid to late twenties now. And it is the only, I wouldn't call it a job. A job is something that you do nine to five. It's the only role I've had in my life that I wanted to show up every day. I loved every day and I would do it all over again.

Francis Gorman (02:27.057)
Yeah, it really is a privilege. Robin, before we get into it, you might just take us a little bit back to your background. I know we touched on a few aspects there, but you've had a really interesting career and it started quite young. Can you bring us on a bit of the journey just so the listeners can understand where it is you've come from to get to where you are now?

Robin Dreeke (02:29.131)
It is a privilege.

Robin Dreeke (02:38.701)
Mm-hmm.

Robin Dreeke (02:44.788)
Absolutely, and that's part of that life arc. So I grew up in upstate New York here in the States and I grew up in a an underwhelming financial family So I had to learn a lot of grit and resilience and self-reliance at an early age I got myself into United States Naval Academy through that same grit resilience and ability to forge great alliances Got through the Naval Academy by the same things they kept wanting to throw me out because my academics were a little subpar and All I ever wanted to do in life was become an astronaut

naval aviator, jet pilot, and aerospace engineer, all those really cool things. And that fell drastically short because someone that has the kind of academic or lack of academic prowess I did failed out of those things. But I wanted to have in the greatest path ever because I wanted to become a United States Marine when I graduated. And in the Marine Corps, I learned the greatest lesson of all, and that I spent a lifetime of those reps already.

of learning how to solve my problems. And I did so by having healthy relationships. But really when it comes to leadership, and I had a great couple of humbling moments in Marine Corps where I failing as a leader, and that is I had to start shifting that focus from solving my problems to understanding the problems and challenges of others and being a resource to solving theirs. And that's where that shift started happening.

From the Marine Corps, my last duty station Marine Corps was at Parris Island, South Carolina, where I was a company and series commander down there in charge of lot of recruits and drill instructors. Came in the FBI in 1997 and I got assigned to New York Field Office up in Manhattan, New York, where I was assigned to work counterintelligence. Had no idea what it was, but I got assigned to work it and that was taking that skill set of being focused on others and solving the problems of others and applying it to recruiting spies.

And so work in the world of counterintelligence, my job was a recruit Russian military intelligence officers at the United Nations and all over. And I got on a behavioral team for counterintelligence. And so that is kind of the, the profiling side, but on the counterintelligence side, that's an adjunct job for us in the bureau. then took a bunch of transfers around the bureau, still working counterintelligence, eventually wound up at FBI headquarters, ran a national program against Russia at headquarters.

Robin Dreeke (04:59.384)
Then got asked to go down to Quantico, Virginia, where I was in charge of training advanced courses for counterintelligence. Wondered taking over the behavioral team that I'd been on since 2001 and became the chief of the behavioral analysis program where I strategized every single day, recruitment operations, double agent operations, false flag operations, espionage investigations, what I call the hooky spooky spy stuff. And what I found is throughout all this and throughout my entire life, the arc has been really pretty plain and simple.

strategizing healthy, strong relationships forged on a foundation of trust. And that is what is most remarkable is that all these things in the world of counterintelligence or in anything in life, you need allies in order to have allies. They have to trust you. You have to inspire someone to feel safe with you if you're going to move forward. And so I did all that retired in 2018, wrote a number of books, both in the bureau and after the bureau. And here we are today.

Francis Gorman (05:56.956)
I have to ask Robin, and this one's itching at me, how do you recruit a Russian spy?

Robin Dreeke (06:03.698)
first, how do you recruit Russian spy? The greatest question of all time. First, you really don't. It's the first misnomer that you get in all the spy movies is that there's some great one-liner you can use or if you throw enough money at a problem, it'll solve everyone's wildest dreams and aspirations. And in my experience with the great people around me that were extremely successful and as well as my own,

It's already inside someone. so what you so what's happened in anything we deal with in life is there is always a wickedly challenging problem we're all looking at, whether it's, know, for you and I, you know, whether it's our kids growing up, you know, we want a good prosperous life for them. We want maybe some education opportunity, whether they're going to trade school or higher education thing or whatever it is, we might have some issues and challenges of their own finances, maybe paying off a house.

Um, maybe some wants and dreams or a nice vacation, or in a lot of cases, there's elder parent issues where there's taking care of our parents as they're getting elderly is an issue or a challenge. There's always some sort of challenge. And so what people are willing to do for those challenges to solve them is where we come into the world of spies. so someone that has the type of information that can solve the national security issues, the United States and all our NATO allies and what we call the five eyes, the UK connect.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand, as well as our other NATO allies. These individuals have the jewels to the kingdom because they know what they're going after. They know what they're trying to steal from countries like the United States and our allies. And so that is a resource that I need and want. And likewise, I have resources that can solve their problems as well. So what you're doing is you're looking for people that already have identified this critical life challenge. And then you're trying to position yourself in a way that they will find you.

They will feel safe with you and they will trust you to be able to solve that problem and keep them alive. And so how do you recruit a spy? You don't, you place yourself in their line of sight in a position that they can trust you to solve that critical life challenge that they have. Sounds simple, right?

Francis Gorman (08:16.221)
Sounds really simple. I must try it out.

Robin Dreeke (08:19.296)
It is, you know, it's really funny. It really is. Here's the challenging part of it, is doing a deep enough dive to understand another human being. Get over yourself, get over your ego, your vanity, your insecurities, your trauma responses, your own trigger points to really truly see another human being for who they are and not judge that human being to not guess at what those challenges, priorities and pain points are, but truly understand what they are. Allow yourself to be in their line of sight. Allow yourself to enter their lives.

when they decide they're looking and that they can trust you when you display the great behaviors of trust. Again, because think about this, if you're willing to even contemplate someone coming into your life or inviting someone into your life to be this resource to solve one of these critical life issues, if they're using any sort or even if you think they're using any manipulation, sub-diffusion, or deception, there's no trust. No trust, no relationship because you're allowed to place your life and potentially your family's life in their hands.

they won't trust you and there will be no recruitment, be no cooperation. And recruitment is kind of a crass word to me anyway as well. It's always a cooperation between two people trying to solve some critical life challenges and problems.

Francis Gorman (09:31.102)
really interested in Robin and I think it's a nice segue into what I want to talk about next, which is we're in an era of digital transformation and with it it comes high levels of disruption. We're seeing large tech firms kind of demanding employees back to the office where they were used to that either hybrid or remote comfort and then we're seeing AI come across the stratosphere with other emerging technologies as post quantum which are going to be highly disruptive to individuals lives at every level.

Is trust being eroded by technology or is there a way that leadership teams need to start considering the employees and their workforce and how do they foster collaboration with these tools and these changes in order to get the outcomes that they want but to find that right balance for everyone in that situation.

Robin Dreeke (10:20.942)
So really detailed question. I'm going to try to break it down to a really simple answer. And the simple answer is, as homo sapiens as we've evolved for hundreds of thousands of years, we all seek, crave, and need the same things. And the last development of the last 10, 20, or a couple of decades of technology hasn't changed us and what our needs, wants, and dreams, aspirations are at our core.

Technology has changed how we get that information and how we assess that information, but still the same need is there, that is we want. We're always going to act in our own best interests in terms of our safety, security, and our prosperity from our point of view. We're going to do those with people that inspire us to trust them when they display open-eyed communication, transparency, and vulnerability. And so that is the foundation of understanding what we're all seeking and craving.

How does technology impact that? Well, technology is assaulting that in some areas because we think we can be satisfied with that human connection that we seek and crave with being present for someone else and being organic with someone else. But technology can't quite fit that bill. So you might require like 50,000 likes in order to get one person in person to say, well, it did a really good job today, Francis. I really appreciate it when you did X, Y, and Z. And I'll tell you what, your podcast is doing really phenomenal. I can't wait to retweet this and rebroadcast this out to a lot of...

to my followers as well. Because when you make that personal very, very granular connection, that means a lot more. And so it's just understanding how to use technology as a partner and not a crutch. And so that's where trust can keep building using it as a partner and a collaborator, especially with AI. When people start getting lazy, that's when things start falling apart. Because here's another thing we do as human beings because of our millennias of evolution.

We strive and we thrive when we're in deprivation mode. We are not genetically, biologically engineered to do well in abundance. right now, mean, just think about, just think about how much this makes sense in today's world, in today's economies. As challenging as we all think it is in the present moment, not 100 or 200 years ago, people were still dying of famine.

Robin Dreeke (12:36.472)
Well, we've genetically engineered our food so we can feed the world. Now that doesn't mean that there's not food challenges and hunger, strife and all these other things because of economics, because of policies, because of politics and all that. we have actually been able to, as Neil deGrasse Tyson says, and all the big food conglomerates that are modifying our food, we can feed the world. We've overcome so much as a species and even with information, we've gotten so much information, but we still create more problems because

a great book that talks about this called the abundance crisis or the comfort crisis. We are not meant to live in comfort. Just think about the times of our history when we've made these huge leaps forward in both societal things, economic areas, technological areas. It's when we've been at our lowest because when we are in deprivation mode, that's when we innovate to solve those problems. So when we're a society inside of comfort,

comfort can be too much technology if we're leaning on it or not just leaning on it but giving it all over we then create chaos and so using tools to keep moving forward and innovating is really what's key and critical and the behaviors of trust have not changed at all we're always consistently seeking open-ass communication transparency and vulnerability those people that we're engaging with because those behaviors allow us to feel safe because they empower us with situational awareness

We have situational awareness, we feel in control and we feel in control, we feel safe. I tried to make it a simple answer, but I think over complicated.

Francis Gorman (14:08.549)
Lots of good detail in there Robin, worry about it. And I think so the vulnerable aspect and the situational awareness are key parts of that to bring it through. As someone who manages a team myself, to get the most out of the work we do on a day-to-day basis, have you got any strategies, simple strategies, just to help the team function more cohesively, to help us move forward? How would you support someone in those scenarios?

Robin Dreeke (14:32.718)
Sure.

I think there's really two critical areas in there for a team to be bought in, be all buying in and put 120 % of effort into everything they're doing. One, and Simon Sinek talks about and start with why, is everyone's got to understand the big overarching why. And where they fit into that why, I mean, there's a great story and anecdote that people have told numerous times of some person that saw themselves as lower end worker who's mopping a floor.

Just was about to get frustrated and quit the job in the restaurant he's working in because he I'm just a lowly sweeper in the store. And then the manager said to him, the leader of the organization, but you understand the impact you're making. He goes, no, I'm just a floor sweeper. yeah, but what's your goal in aspiration? He goes, I'd like to be something more than a floor sweeper. says, well, here's how that works. He said, if you sweep this floor well and you clean up well, what does that do to our ratings with the health department? Does it go up or go down?

He goes, that goes up. I said, well, when that goes up, do you think when we put that sign on the front of the store that says we are a five-star rating for our cleanliness that we're going to have more customers come in? He goes, yeah, we'll probably have more customers come in. If we have more customers come in and we have a need for more people on the staff and more growth, who do you think we're going to want to hire, from within or from without?

So everyone has got to understand their role towards that greater why. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is people need to be seen, they need to be heard, and they need to have every conversation about them. And you can take the same message that you have and you can shift it by shifting the focus of that message in terms of them. And this is what I call the golden keys of communication that I pontificate about all the time, because these are the four keys I was missing my entire life until poof, I started putting together.

Robin Dreeke (16:20.014)
Because when we spend a lifetime, our first formative years of life and that arc of solving our own challenges and problems instead of focusing on others, because especially if we come up in a challenging situation, we're bullied like we all are, we're felt disenfranchised, whatever it is, we're so focused on our challenges and problems, our language then becomes about us. And here's the four keys. One, seek the thoughts and opinions of others instead of monologuing and pontificating on and on about your own. Two, talk in terms of

The other person's challenges, their priorities, their pain points instead of yours. Three, this is the key crux to absolutely everything. This is non-judgmental active curiosity. What I mean by that is non-judgmental meaning whatever your own morals, ethics and beliefs happen to be doesn't mean you have to agree with someone else, means you seek to understand at a very deep level. This is what's called very active empathy. And I use that word active and active curiosity meaning this. Take your curiosity

to the upper level. Don't just be curious about what it is you want to know. Be very curious about what it is they want to say. And the way you do that is you listen to the words they're saying. Don't stop the mid-sentence and ask another question about what you want to know. Listen to the words they're saying, the stories and anecdotes they're sharing and explore those with a very easy what question. Quote unquote what. W-H-A-T. What was next? What was your golden aspiration you had?

What path did you think you're going to be walking? I mean, just look at those three questions right now and you're to get a whole buffet of what's important to them. And finally, you empower people with choices with a beautiful word, if. If that's something you're comfortable with, if you'd prefer to do it this way or this way, what you think would be best for you. So using those four golden keys of communication, shifting the focus from you to others, people understand the overarching why of where they fit into the dynamic of the organization, and organization. That's what really gets teams on board.

Francis Gorman (18:17.437)
It's really insightful Robin and it's so simple when you break it down into your four different pillars. I was starting to have a read of the Coler Trust and you've got five principles in there, suspend your ego, be non-judgmental, honor reason, validate others and be generous. You unpackage them and speak about them in a way that's powerful. Can you talk a little bit about those five principles for me and where they came from?

Robin Dreeke (18:21.228)
It is.

Robin Dreeke (18:43.916)
could talk about each of them for way too long. Pick one. What was your favorite that you want to go on to, Francis?

Francis Gorman (18:49.863)
Well, I think there was two, was two that stood out to me. The first one, suspend your ego. And the last one, be generous. under two things that probably creep into modern society. And I think you talked about the 50,000 likes to get, you know, one validation, et cetera. And that drives ego. But it also, it also drives the fake generosity aspects of the modern world as well. So those two, if we could pick them up maybe and we'll just have a chat about them.

Robin Dreeke (19:02.03)
You alright?

Robin Dreeke (19:10.882)
Yeah.

Robin Dreeke (19:15.682)
Yeah. And we can, we can blend those two together because they really, all those really go hand in hand. So ego suspension, most definitely the hardest thing to do. And you said it a few seconds ago, I said, this all sounds very easy when you lay it out like this. And it is the thing that makes it hard and challenging for each of us. And this is the thing to do too. No one should ever beat themselves up for where they think they fell short. We're, we are our own worst critics, much worse than we are on other people.

We're all working on this. It's not a big deal. Just know that you're working on this. And so part of that working on this, the thing that undermines these great relationships, these great dialogues, these great conversations is our own ego, our own vanity. And most importantly in there, our own insecurities. We all have trauma responses. We all have trigger points that triggers our feelings of being left out, triggers our feelings of not being part of, triggers our feelings of we're being disenfranchised, whatever it is.

We get a flare of a victim mindset and when that happens, our shields go up, our defenses go up, our mouth starts opening in ways that are not helpful. And so that is what I mean by ego suspension. If you can, if everyone can just remember very, very rarely, if ever is anyone doing anything to you, you are just in the way of their insecurities. And so anytime you hear, and this is what the ego suspension really plays a huge part.

If you're ever in a conversation, a dialogue, an interaction with someone and you feel they're being inappropriate, you feel they're ranting at you, being angry at you, and it's flaring up your insecurities and you want to flashback, just remember this. They're just being who they are and you did something that made them feel insecure, unsafe and disenfranchised, whatever it is. And so they are literally reacting to, granted, doesn't mean it's appropriate or inappropriate, it just is.

They are being insecure with their language because of you. And so ask yourself, what did I do that didn't allow them to feel safe conversing with me? What action did I take? What's going on in this situation that they don't feel safe enough to calm down? And so when you can let go of your own wanting to lash back, wanting to get revenge, wanting to get the one liner and whatever it is and just literally ask yourself this very simple question, is what I'm about to say or do going to help or hinder

Robin Dreeke (21:39.418)
Healthy dialogue and a healthy relationship because that is the only way we self challenges and problems is with a good healthy relationship and a healthy dialogue and If you start reacting back to them the same way without suspending your ego, it's just it's just chaos and there's to me There's no right or wrong to this that just is and so that's that's probably the first thing to do and then be generous Here's what generosity is and generosity. It's it's probably gonna be the bravest thing you do Be generous with kindness to start with

You know, there's a great game theory that's been proven millions of times over and that's called tit for tat. And tit for tat starts with the fact that in these game systems, in every system in life, they've experimented with, you know, the back and forth and collaboration, not collaboration, what's most advantageous and what they found through playing this out, not just in short term, but we're talking like thousands of years into the future when the way these games work is that when people start out with kindness,

Eventually, it will come back to kindness kindness no matter what the other person reciprocate with if they want to poke or jab you back you just mere the last reaction they take but always start with kindness and in other words Let go of your ego. Let go your vanity when they finally come around to reciprocating with kindness and generosity All will fall into place and so first with generosity be generous with your kindness be generous with your grace that you give people and Don't hold on and most importantly be generous with your time

So those are a couple things to do again. Easy to say, can be hard to do because it requires us to take a leap of faith in many of situations. But I guarantee you, the way the laws of averages and statistics play out and the way the human behaviors is just a cause and effect, they all are exceptionally predictable and they do work.

Francis Gorman (23:26.459)
And again, sounds so simple when you lay it out like that Robin, but yeah, very impactful, especially generous with time. think time is something we only have a finite amount of and you know, it's very hard to find hours in the day, yeah, know, box it off.

Robin Dreeke (23:38.382)
And I hate to interrupt Francis and here's what I want to do this one thing with time too. So think about this. People will make the excuse or rationalize that I don't have time to do so. I don't have time to sit down and have a cup of coffee with someone. I'm not talking about that. You're right. That takes more time. You know how long it takes to to to be generous with time when you just do this. So Francis what was that sparking inspiration that set you on the path of who you are today. How long did that question take.

Francis Gorman (24:05.639)
seconds. Yeah.

Robin Dreeke (24:06.55)
Yes, and I'm gonna listen to the answer you had. I'm gonna remember that answer you had. Say, France, I can't wait to hear more about that. I'll tell you what, if you got chance later this week, can we follow up with that? Boom! Who was that entire conversation about? And I now have a spark that's gonna give me your life arc. I'm gonna start hearing what is a challenge, a priority, and pain point in your life. I'm gonna start understanding how you make decisions. I'm gonna start understanding all things about you.

Francis Gorman (24:21.019)
Me, the individual, yeah.

Robin Dreeke (24:33.046)
And they only have to come in little seconds of glimmers. And now think about this, during the course of your day, how many people did that?

Slim to none. You be the one person. It takes three seconds to ask a question. means something to the other person. And is that time well spent? Yes.

Francis Gorman (24:55.163)
I think Robin, this brings me onto something that I was a bit fascinated when I was doing my background research and you talk about how to be unforgettable. Is that one of the techniques?

Robin Dreeke (25:05.804)
Yeah, it is. How to be unforgettable, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters, it's how you make them feel about themselves. You know, one of the greatest things you can do with another human being is discover the greatness in them that they never even knew was there. When you're just... We're all born with... I truly believe this. I think we're all born with like one genetic spark or talent.

And then it's up to us to whether we give that spark or talent some water and nurturing to give it the reps it needs to kind of flourish into something more. Mine, I'm positive. I'm a positive aspect guy. I used the analogy the other day that, you know, I see the glass is half full no matter how much water is in it. If there's only this much water in it and if it drains completely out, I get a hose, I fill it back up and it's still half full. I mean, I am, I am that kind of positive guy. So when I'm conversing with someone,

course you have challenges, course you have weaknesses, of course you have things you're working on, of course there's things about you I might find irritating. But you know what? We all do, so do I. I don't look at those. I'm gonna focus on this. I'm going to find the greatness in you. I'm going to find what we have in common. And that's how you become unforgettable because I'm not focused on what I can do to impress you with me. I'm trying my hardest. I'm going to find what's impressive about you to you and to me.

And if it's not work based, going to find something about, mean, just, I mean, just friends, you know, I'm going to remember about this conversation when we connect again after this, no matter how long in the future it is. Four year old son.

No matter what, at the end of the day, I could see the spark in your eye talking about your son. That's what matters and that's what matters to you. So that's how you become unforgettable. Be the person that talks about the thing that matters the most to the other person.

Francis Gorman (26:49.435)
I also have a leaven me goal but I won't get into him. Because he's making the eyes look very tired at the moment.

Robin Dreeke (26:57.153)
Hey, here's the positive thing about that too, Francis. We never remember average days. We only remember really challenging ones or really awesome ones. And so, and I didn't say bad ones, I said challenging ones. Our brains work that we remember those challenges. So remember, every day you have a challenge with your son, just know, this is a great gift he's given me today. I'm gonna remember this day.

Francis Gorman (27:19.901)
must reframe. I'm going to have to reframe my tall process and some of these are up and after this conversation.

Robin Dreeke (27:24.462)
100 % it makes it makes it makes life a blessing. You know, I'm also into stoicism and Eastern philosophy and I read a Doubt H. Chang every day, you know, by Lao Tzu and one of the and also I'm into the astrophysics. I'm into all these things by Neil deGrasse Tyson as well and other astrophysicists. And when you take this global perspective of things and the and the probability of just us being able to breathe this air in this entire universe.

It is such an infinitesimally small probability we get to live. And so here's the way I think about every situation every day, that's why the glass is full. We all have the amazing privilege, as long or as short as it is, we all have the privilege of dying one day. There's so few things in this universe to ever get a chance to do. And so...

What a great blessing, what a great privilege. And so every time something happens, lean into it, man, because if it's a challenging moment, you're going to remember it's going to be a great rep. You're never going to do that the same way again. You're going to learn something from it. You're going to move forward from it. And so few organisms or particles in this universe get a chance to do that. So that's how stupid, optimistic I am.

Francis Gorman (28:34.511)
It's very good and it's a great perspective on life Robin. It's great way to be, to have that infinite optimism and see the best in the situation. And I think I would agree, you learn more from your worst days than you do from your best days sometimes and that's foundational to who you become as an individual over the years. It's like making a diamond, all that compression. Sometimes it kind of comes at the far side as something beautiful.

Robin Dreeke (29:00.27)
Absolutely. I've read enough history to see how blessed we are to live in this time period. read a lot. I've read so many survivors of Auschwitz's stories. I just finished one called Daughter of Auschwitz, The Redhead of Auschwitz, Into the Woods, Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, Ellie's Workin' Tonight. And then even you go back further, all the way to the the 14, 15, 1600s in Europe or anywhere else in the world.

You know being marauded by highway bandits, know dying of every single disease on the face of the planet that no one could figure out I mean mortality rates were abysmal one and one and four children didn't make it past three years old. I mean Really? We're okay right now. No matter how bad as anyone thinks it is We are pretty darn good right now and it's gonna keep getting better now It doesn't get better in in time frames of a year or two a lot of times, but it does get better over time

Francis Gorman (29:53.278)
I wanted to ask you before we finish up, we've talked a lot about trust but in our lives, in relationships, in business, if trust is broken, in your opinion, can you fix that? Can trust be regained?

Robin Dreeke (30:08.29)
Yeah, a common most challenging question is, if you're, if you're in a situation, you've done something silly or stupid, or the other person did that broke that truss, what can you do to regain it? And yes, it can be regained, but it is a, it is, it is a long haul and a challenging road because it's not up to you. Now you can do things that you can hopefully move that pendulum to start swinging back in the direction. Because what happens is when we lose trust is the other person didn't feel safe with you.

And you did something that was counter to their feelings of safety, security and prosperity for themselves and those they care about. That's what blows trust. You didn't operate with the behaviors of trust, is that open-hearted communication, the transparency and vulnerability. So with that understanding that you did something to make someone or inspire them to feel unsafe and or you didn't have the behaviors of trust in order to rebuild, you have to own it.

You have to say, listen, I completely understand that I did this wrong. And I will now start working for, not just in my words, but now in my actions to rebuild that trust by giving you full transparency and openness in the area that you didn't feel safe in with me. What more do you need? What do you need to do this? Allow them to have free, full access to whatever area aspect or you that they didn't have that didn't feel safe. And most importantly, you have to do so on their tempo and their timeline.

If they say they want nothing to do with you and never talk to me again, the only thing you can do is honor it. There's no making anyone ever do anything. All you can do is hope to inspire them to want to because that's the difference between you convincing someone to trust you again. You can't. All you can do is hopefully inspire them to want to unlock it from within themselves that they're willing to and you have to give that open-eyed communication transparency and vulnerability in all the areas they felt you didn't.

at the tempo that they want, as frequently as they want. I mean, just look at all that energy. Look at how vulnerable you're making yourself. So long answer is yes, you can. That's what you have to do. And if you don't ever have to want to do that, don't blow trust in the first place.

Francis Gorman (32:17.853)
Which is good advice again. Robin, we're seeing reports in Europe at the moment, and specifically in Ireland, where North Korean entities are placing insiders in organizations to create insider threats. And a lot of them are against US companies in Ireland as well. Mandiant, I think it was Google's Trade Intelligence team, actually brought the report to the public in the last couple of weeks. Is there...

With, I suppose, growing tensions in Europe with what's going on in Russia, Ukraine and the wider world, you know, we're in a very unsteady place geopolitically at the moment. And that's probably driving a lot of bad actors or nation state attacks. Is there anything organizations can do to help bolster self against the human element of risk and threat to their organizations internally?

Robin Dreeke (33:08.2)
there's two things in there. First, I want everyone to first take a deep breath and deep breath in a sense of, know everyone's feeling very unsafe because of the world's geopolitical challenges and dynamics that are going on. But as a study of history and a knower of all the things that are going on in the intelligence world, it's okay.

Everything's gonna be okay. It's not any worse today than it's ever been before. And a lot of people think it is because we live in the now and not yesterday, but it really has been much worse in the past. And it's challenging now and there'll always be challenges, but these challenges are nothing new to the world at large. We just happen to know more about it because the way information flows now and the way that people are using information and weaponizing information, all those things. And so I don't from my optic, again, I have a limited optic as one individual human being, but...

From my optic of being 22 years inside the FBI and the intelligence community, I don't see anything any worse or better than it's been in the lifespan I've spent doing it. So that's the first thing is take a deep breath. It's gonna be okay because no one wants bad things to happen. One second.

So that's first thing. Now, things we can do for the human factor? Yeah, you can just assess people for trustworthiness. And so what's really simple to do that in these situations, everything we talked about today about what you can do to inspire trust in others, about making the conversation about others, about having the behavior of trust with that open, honest communication, transparency, and vulnerability, now reverse it. This is what your expectation should be of others.

is what you're looking for in others. know, if you have, because granted, if we have lasting strong relationships and healthy relationships with people, first of all, healthy relationships look like this. There's no drama. Drama is unhealthy. Drama is chaos. If it's too busy, too complicated, and people are giving you lot of double words, I mean, if they're all over the place, that's drama.

Robin Dreeke (35:04.428)
I'm telling you that's unhealthy. I'm not saying of what you should or shouldn't do, just telling you chaos begets chaos. And you cannot solve problems if all you get is a lot of swirling chaos around you. So you got to put that aside for a second and anchor down on keeping things simple. And if you can, keep the people that are in your life simple, focused, no chaos. And so the way you do that is you're looking for people to use healthy language with you.

having them use the keys to communication, look for how they're interacting with others. Are they seeking the thoughts and opinions of others or are they angry and pontificating not their own? Are they talking in terms of your challenges, your priorities, your pain points, your friction points and those of others or are they focused on self? Three, are they non-judgmentally and actively curious about everyone else around them about how to solve problems or are they so focused on solving their own problems?

And three, are they empowering people with choice to let them feel safe with what's going on and give them choice about how to move forward collaboratively together. And then, when there are open eyes with their communication, they're being transparent and being vulnerable, meaning that they're owning when they're making mistakes. They're telling you and sharing you openly what they're doing to overcome them. And when they're doing all these things that we're saying behaviorally in the same tempo, in other words, there's no tempo deviation.

So if you come back with a question that you didn't have a lot of clarity on, say listen, you know Francis, you just said this, I don't quite understand that, help me understand what did you mean by that? They should be able to respond at the same tempo, the same tenor of voice, the same intonation, the same non-verbal cues and tempo, and be very clear and concise on that answer, or own the fact that they don't know the answer. That is what you can trust. Now if all of sudden,

They shift, they block, they blade and they're telling you something different, it's incongruent with what they're sharing. That's reason to take a pause and say, huh, we have an issue here. Now I'm not saying say this out loud, but here's an issue where there's a lack of transparency, there's lack of openness and we have incongruence with tempo. So this is an issue for them and we need to either explore this deeper to solve it or we need to walk away from it. So that's what I'm looking for. I'm just looking for good healthy behavior from those I'm engaging with.

Francis Gorman (37:12.733)
Okay, okay. I'm gonna have to replay this after and write down a couple.

Robin Dreeke (37:17.43)
It's a lot. know it's it's I call it death by Robin. It's a lot of information nonstop. But hopefully when you do listen to it again, everyone does, you know, do a replay on this. It is really a simple. Remember this to keep it all simple. What are you going to do to inspire someone to feel safe with you? To do that, you need to understand that all human beings are always going to act in their own best interest in terms of their safety, security and prosperity for themselves and those they care about.

And that could be small, that could be large, but once you understand and do a deep dive of that, you can now predict that behavior. can now understand how they're interacting with the world, how they're making decisions. And if you don't and you're missing it and they're doing it, not what you expected means you don't know them well enough. And so dive even a little bit deeper, or they're just completely chaotic and unhealthy. And so you need to make other choices.

Francis Gorman (38:09.021)
It's it's fair and it's logical again. you know, I think there's, you can see how you've got a number of books in this space, Robin. You're a fountain of wisdom when it comes to these aspects. Robin, I've been looking at a lot of the different kind of interviews you've given and you get brought in quite a bit to talk about the worst parts of human behavior, whether it's murders or attempted assassinations, et cetera.

Robin Dreeke (38:33.073)
yeah.

Francis Gorman (38:37.053)
What do you look for in an individual that, you know, defines these behaviors, psychopathic behaviors, you know, aggressive? Is that something that forms over a lifetime or are you born with those traits and they just materialize based on the environment that you're placed in as you evolve in life?

Robin Dreeke (38:47.758)
Mm-hmm.

Robin Dreeke (38:56.408)
Francis, fun question. know, it's first time we're infusing my latest background in last couple of years of doing true crime in human behavior. Here's what I'm seeing in every single case I've covered, whether it's a missing person, whether it's a abduction, whether it's a serial killer, whatever it is, it's the same thing. Guilty people that have committed these crimes, there's an arc. There's always an escalation.

So just like we've talked about here, human beings, talked about that life span behavior arc and you know, things that your son is doing at the age of four is going to be part of his spark and arc that allows him to feel safe throughout life. You provide a safe, healthy environment for him. That's going to be safe, healthy arc. Now there's going to be little blips and bloops along the way, but generally it's going be healthy and safety. What people are doing the most abhorrent things against another mankind where it's

going into the realm of violence against others and crime at an escalated level, when it reaches that level, it's never ever, ever the first time they've done it. It's never ever the first time they've done violence or had violence or angry thoughts about someone. Now, granted, it might be the first time they've taken an escalated to the level of death or physical assault or mental, psychological damage, but it's always been an escalation. So the first thing I'm always looking for

is if someone is a victim and the first thing I'm doing is I'm looking around that person's close circle because I think it's 85 to 95 % of the cases, the people that have had violence done against them, they know the person. The person that does the violence against them is already in their life or connected in some way. So you're look at that circle of people around them and the first thing I'm looking for is who's unhealthy?

Who has a healthy unhealthy background and established arc that says that they are on an escalated path to a violent or potential violent act because people do not go from zero to a hundred James Clear atomic habits. No one forms a brand new habit of healthy engaging life in a healthy way and also I'm going to kill someone. It just doesn't happen. Now mistakes happen accidents happen and that's completely different story. But generally in those cases too where there's

Robin Dreeke (41:11.822)
99 % of time too also there's some sort of alcohol or drugs involved in those cases too. what you're doing is you just look at the law of averages of everyone and everything and so it becomes very predictable about how these things played out, how they started, who's involved, who's not involved because they're all following arcs of behavior.

Francis Gorman (41:30.033)
really insightful Robin and I think we're just up on time but it's been an absolutely inspirational conversation. There's so much value in there and I think the listeners are really going to get a lot out of it. So really, really thank you for coming on and speaking with me today.

Robin Dreeke (41:43.982)
My pleasure, Francis. And for everyone listening, he said it once already, but I want to encourage everyone to do it too. It puts a lot of time and effort into putting this together and bringing great people with great knowledge on for you all. So make sure you hit that like, subscribe, and share with your friends.

Francis Gorman (41:56.349)
Rowan, amazing. Thanks very much. Thank you.

Robin Dreeke (41:58.19)
Such a pleasure. Thank you.