Spycraft for Leaders with Matthew Dunn

In this episode, former MI6 officer, author, and corporate strategist Matthew Dunn sits down with Francis Gorman to pull back the curtain on life inside British intelligence and how the lessons of espionage translate to leadership, business, and personal mindset.

Matthew recounts how he was secretly recruited into MI6 through university talent spotters, underwent one of the most rigorous selection and vetting processes in government, and operated under 14 different alias identities during his field career. He explains how emotional intelligence, adaptability, and courage are the real tools of a spy far more vital than gadgets or brute intellect.

Takeaways

• Sometimes what we perceive to be impossible is actually very possible.
• An individual can achieve much by believing in themselves.
• Drawing from experiences can provide insights into overcoming obstacles.
• A positive mindset is key to achieving success.
• Obstacles are often a matter of perception.
• Achieving goals requires a strong belief in one's capabilities.

Transcript

Francis Gorman (00:01.824)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Entropy Podcast. I'm your host, Francis Gorman. If you're enjoying our content, please take a moment to like and follow the show wherever you get your podcasts from. Today I'm joined by Matthew Dunne, a former MI6 intelligence officer. Matthew is a well-known author known for novels such as Ben Sign and Spycatcher. He's the co-founder of D2 Spycycle, a company that focuses on delivering in-person spy leadership programs to corporate executives. And it's very nice to have him here with me today. How are you today, Matthew?

Matthew Dunn (00:29.821)
Very well, thank you, Francis, for having me on your show.

Francis Gorman (00:33.29)
I was looking forward to this. I know your business partner Robin Drake was on before, so I thought it was a natural pivot to bring yourself on as well to get two sides of the kind, Matthew. Matthew, I'm always intrigued when I talk to intelligence officer, ex-intelligence officers, how they got into that field or was it something that they've always kind of aspired to? Could you give me little bit about your background story and what led you into the path that landed you in MI6?

Matthew Dunn (00:44.029)
My thanks.

Matthew Dunn (01:03.635)
Yeah, it's all changed now for MI6. Now it's all open application. MI6 has got a website and one can apply and it stays interested in MI6 itself. But in my time, that didn't exist at all. It really was a case of they approach you. And that was largely done through talent spotters, almost entirely positioned within universities spread across primarily the United Kingdom.

And that's what happened to me. I was approached in the second year of my undergraduate studies. I was at the time doing some academic work with one particular professor. And in the margins of that academic work, we just struck up a conversation about what potentially I could be interested in doing post-graduation.

And at the time, I was sort of loosely interested in government work, particularly with an inflection on foreign affairs. And I mentioned that. And we had a series of just ongoing conversations that were picked up and then dropped and picked up again. And this lasted for, I think, probably at least a year. It was a sort of courtship, essentially, during which

by the way, it became quite clear both to me and no doubt to him that we both knew what we were talking about, but neither of us articulated it. And it culminated, and I'm obviously bullet pointing here what happened, but it culminated in him saying, listen, and this was, think, probably the beginning-ish of my third year of studies. I've got some people in London, Matthew, that I think you should meet.

And my response to that was, yes, I'd be delighted. And so I went down to London and went to this very salubrious building in central London and met some very nice people. And their opening question to me was, well, before we go any further, do you know who you're talking to? And my response to that was, yes, you are the Secret Intelligence Service MI6. And their response was, yes, we are. So now we can have an open conversation. And that's what...

Matthew Dunn (03:27.932)
happened and I then went through the whole process selection process for MI6 which was further interviews, cognitive tests, two-day selection, assessment centers, more interviews and then even at the point of them saying to me well we'd like to offer you a position then I had to go through the the develop vetting process to security clearance.

which as you probably know takes forever because it is the highest level of security clearance in the UK. So a very long, tough process within which of course I could have failed at any stage because it was a pass or fail process and it's exceptionally rigorous, tough to get through. And I look back on the talent spotter period of that, as I mentioned, a good year of that.

courtship, that sort of merry-go-round kind of thing. I think, well, you that was a huge effort. And what if I'd fallen at the first hurdle? You know, it was a bizarre thing. But that was how it was done back then and for decades preceding that, it was a very, very top secret exclusive club, I guess. And that applied very much to how they selected people.

Francis Gorman (04:51.214)
It's always fascinating to look at that lens and the journey. wasn't just one and done. You didn't send a CV and all of a sudden you were at a desk getting an interview. They vetted you thoroughly from multiple angles by the sound of it before you got brought into the fold. And it's a story that resonates with me from talking to the likes of Jim Lawler, he was ex-CIA, et cetera, that kind of almost that courtship before the actual inception of the role and kind of

navigating that path forward. It's interesting that you talked, Matthew, about the cognitive tests, because one thing that I've noticed in a lot of intelligence workers is they're highly intelligent, but emotional intelligence is actually a really key aspect of it. Was emotional intelligence part of the test and validation piece around, obviously you're in the field, you need to be able to be persuasive and to bring people in a certain way, but in order to do that, it's not just

It's not just cognitive intelligence, it's that emotional intelligence aspect. Was that a part of it or do you have that norm naturally as part of your personality trait?

Matthew Dunn (05:56.743)
Yeah, it's a fascinating question, by the way, and one that I still reflect on. I looked back objectively at the process that I went through. As I mentioned, I think it has been changed quite a bit. But the one I went through was clearly designed to test traditional intellect, problem solving, that side of things.

was not really geared, I think, to gauge what we now call emotional intelligence, which by the way, was a phrase that pretty much didn't exist when I went through the process. But it didn't. It was almost a sort of industrial revolution sort of based sort of gauge of, know, is this chap or chap as smart or not kind of thing, which is, I guess, very important.

but what was very clear to me when I actually did my training and then obviously particularly operated in the field was there's so much more to the work and particularly so much more to actually being a really, really top spy because it requires a type of thinking.

We do sometimes call emotional intelligence, but I think it's a very nimble way of thinking and the ability to read people, the ability to actually navigate responses and actions according to how people are at any one particular point and all of that. And I actually think that ability was really what they were looking for in me, particularly during the talent spotting process and in the early stages of the selection process.

The cognitive bit was essentially to see if I had a, I guess, a fully functioning brain. But I don't think the process I went through was as front and centre looking at, am I a spy type character? It was much more, OK, is this an intelligent person? And by the way, in the margins of that, we will then make our own assessment about his or her character.

Francis Gorman (08:20.264)
Very good. No, it's question that I've replayed a number of times because it's come up over and over again when I've talked in the intelligence field, especially for individuals who've seen action or have been involved in espionage, you know, being able to turn the dial a bit when needed in the emotional sense has, you know, in more ways than one got them out of hot water. When you're working in intelligence work, Matthew, and I suppose I'm looking at this from the perspective of

splitting out yourself from who you need to be in the field. Does that play any problems into your personal life or how you navigate going forward in terms of the complexities of trying to be one persona when let's say you're in action and one persona when you're at home? Do those worlds play against each other?

Matthew Dunn (09:09.926)
Yeah, I mean, this is again a very deep question that again I have reflected on a peak. I had 14 different alias identities and those alias identities, it wasn't just having a dodgy passport and credit card, it required some degree of depth of background attached to each identity right back through to childhood, schools attended, you know, all the rest of it.

names of teachers, where I lived, you know, the pub on the street, I allegedly lived in the beer on draft in that alleged pub and all that kind of stuff. So a lot of detail. And for me personally, I had no problems immersing myself in those alias identities. And by the way, unlike the way it's portrayed in, for example, the movies,

operations overlap, so I will be moving from shifting from one identity to another to another, depending on the stages of each individual operation. But even with that in play, I had no problems with doing so. And I think, guess, dovetailing it to our earlier points about what are they looking for in terms of emotional intelligence and the subtext of that is, okay, what kind of person are they looking for?

You know, I think I was probably very well geared for that lifestyle, that ability to, if you like, morph into other people and become that person, you know, to the extent that if somebody randomly pulled out my alias identity name in the street, I would instinctively turn towards it when I was, you know, operating. I had no problems with it. And so I think, you know, that

sort of goes into a sort of a deep dive, if you like, into psychology and, you know, nurture nature, all of that kind of stuff. But I was very well placed for it. To your point about the impacts on my private life, again, that's a complex position because, for example, my return to base, if such a thing existed,

Matthew Dunn (11:34.909)
typically was London and encapsulated by a head office in Vauxhall Cross obviously, but London, but it's worth noting that London for me was not a safe place either. So, the epicenter of espionage to a large extent. And so even when I was returning from overseas trips and I was traveling a lot, I was still to a large extent operating when I was in London.

That meant maintaining whichever covers I was or ensuring I wasn't in certain places or accidental bump-ins to people I didn't want to bump into. You name it, or the concern, genuine concern that I might be followed or there might be hostile action against me, all of this kind of thing. So suppose what I'm saying is the concept of being, if you like, off duty and therefore having a private life, so to speak, was guess never truly there.

when I was operating. And so as a result of that, was never that much of a challenge.

Francis Gorman (12:41.678)
I suppose that that's a relationship with trust that has to be worked out as well. If you're you're always on, you're always on, and it's fascinating and the ability to compartmentalize, you know, the different personas and respond to them, et cetera. I always find that to be be fascinating. If I look in today's world and we're surrounded by big data and social networks and everyone has a CCTV camera in their hands, does intelligence work become far more

complex in today's age.

Matthew Dunn (13:14.012)
It does become more complex in terms of trade craft for sure. I mean, simple things or not so simple, largely when I operated, it was still very possible to think, okay, I've got a, know, back of a fag packet kind of appearance cover, not necessarily disguise, but you know, I'll pass as a businessman or an academic or whatever.

But of course these days one has to be so careful facial recognition and all this kind of stuff that to some extent didn't really exist. It was coming in towards the latter years but for the lion's share when I operated so simply getting from A to B or A to Z is a new challenge for sure and that applies by the way not just to the intelligence officers like me who are going

going somewhere, but also to our foreign agents that typically we were trying to meet. they would have their own security considerations that would mirror what I've just said. So that side of things. However, the bigger picture in terms of end game, what was it that people like me were trying to do? Well, it was all always about human intelligence. So it was always about the secrets that people have locked inside their heads.

and will never trust anything electronic. That has not changed. But certainly the practicalities, the logistics that has brought with it some new challenges. But then again, we work around those challenges. And also, lest we forget, we apply courage. We go for it sometimes and just play the system and hope we don't get caught.

Francis Gorman (15:08.686)
The human angle you talked about there and your knowledge is in the mind and you know, that still persists today. When I look at our modern world, know, a lot of the time, the easiest part to compromise from a security perspective is the individual. And something Jim Lauder said to me in our conversation has stuck with me ever since. said he never recruited a happy person. So if you've got an insider threat in your organization, know, is your company doing...

the right things to keep its employees on board and keep them happy and keep them motivated? Or are you disenfranchising those people and therefore creating threats by default? you got any, I don't know, I'm throwing this one out there from a different lens. Jim was XCIA, but does that resonate with you as well, Matthew?

Matthew Dunn (15:54.853)
It resonates and it's making me smile. mean, do I wholeheartedly agree with Jim? On principle, no, because he's ex-CIA, but just as a side, I think the thrust of it though is correct and that is motivation. In MI6, we would look at three things, forget other acronyms on his public stuff, were three things which will be access, security and motivation.

Access, when we look at somebody, access do they have to secrets, top secrets that genuinely we need? Secondly, security, security around the operations, security pertaining to the intelligence officer, people like me, to any foreign agents, assets that we are using, but also security in relation to, well, if the operation gets compromised, what is the potential fallout for the likes of HMG or our allies, both.

But the motivation side of things, I think, is the core of it. What motivates people? I would always, always be looking at motivation in terms of, you know, recruitment and is somebody likely to be amenable to an approach, as we call it, by me under alias? And will that person consistently and reliably be able to work for me? But where I slightly depart perhaps from Jim is that I

When it comes to motivation, in MI6 we would keep an extremely open mind as to what potentially can motivate somebody to spy on our behalf, work productively, and if we take a step away from espionage to working in the corporate world or whatever, motivations to do well or otherwise can vary enormously.

There can be typical ones such as pay and promotion and status, et cetera, but there could be other things in play as well. And so I think we should be very flexible when we look at motivations because people can draw on different motivations to achieve the same level of success. So that is a huge, huge, important one. And if again, taking a step away from secret world, so to speak for employers,

Matthew Dunn (18:20.456)
or people in any position of influence within an employer situation, I think it's always, always crucial to consider, okay, what is going to motivate this person? What is going to encourage this person to do well in their position or perhaps to exceed in their position? But not necessarily draw on one component, be open-minded as to what...

what could be in play here.

Francis Gorman (18:53.762)
I suppose that leads me nicely into your new company D2 Spy Cycle with Mr Robin Dreak. What lessons are you taking from the intelligence field and applying that are useful to executives and their counterparts in business? What can you enrich those individuals with that they may not get elsewhere?

Matthew Dunn (19:16.786)
Yeah, Robin ex-FBI, primarily counterintelligence. He was latterly head of the behavioral analysis program. He and I, we dovetail beautifully together because I was the spy, he was the spy gatcher essentially and all the rest of it. But it occurred to both of us, we have such a depth of experience in particular.

what we call or what is known as the spy recruitment cycle, which is a series of stages that are applied by trained officers in the secret world. And it occurred to us that that will be hugely valuable to people in the corporate world because the thrust of it is forging alliances. One of the

major recurring concerns that Sir Hy and Robin were hearing from primarily C-suite individuals was the lack of communication between individual silos within the corporate world. Understandably, heads of department or heads of division or whatever are very focused on their patch. They are motivated and they are rewarded accordingly.

But at the board level, of course, one has a more holistic view, a more bottom line view, and the lack of communication between those silos and also not just internal but also external to crucial potential interlocutors. That is currently a blockage and Robin and I know how to unblock that. So we have put together D2

a suite of programs, four programs we offer a year to corporates, which is a three day program taking corporate executives through the spy recruitment cycle to our knowledge no one else is doing this.

Francis Gorman (21:31.79)
It's incredible the way you've taken that work and kind of extrapolated to business, but it's something I see a lot is work in the intelligence field actually fits quite nicely into different disciplines in business, whether it's cybersecurity or leadership, et cetera. What is the most important trait you took out of your time in MI6 that has consistently stood with you in business?

Matthew Dunn (21:56.281)
I mean, there are many that, I mean, one I firmly believe in, which is that it's the art of the possible. I firmly believe that sometimes what we perceive to be impossible is actually very possible. So I, an individual, drawing heavily from my time in MI6, know that so much can be achieved.

And so very little actually in life for me personally becomes an obstacle. I will always say, no, this is surmountable. This can be achieved. So I think that belief, self belief, that so-called impossible can be achieved. And that is one key thing. The other is, we've sort of touched on this, but the other is people.

And I consistently remain fascinated by individuals and the power that emanates from within individuals. This will not be a popular stance, no doubt, but I'm not a massive fan of tribal behavior and by implication, the emphasis on teams. I know that teams are, you know, it's the buzz thing.

But I'm rather more a believer in there is no team in I. I'm much more focused on the ego in the real sense of the word. As I say, the power that emanates from us and the possibilities that emanate from us. And as a result, I am much more interested in alliances compared to teams. Because I think if we look at individuals and we recognize

the value that individuals have and then we incorporate that in an alliance which towards ends and purposes somebody else might call a team. I think we optimize our position and the position of individuals exponentially. But it is understanding. In lay person speak, what makes someone tick? I think that's hugely important and giving them value. Yes, they have to be part of

Matthew Dunn (24:20.66)
a bigger picture for sure, and they have to play their role. But the ability to look at people and to understand them, you will find it elsewhere, of course, because really what I'm talking about is leadership. But it's, and you'll see it, for example, in the military and other functions, corporate wealth, et cetera. But it's having those, as we used to call it in MI6, those antennae out.

and being able to be aware of the people around you. That is something for sure that I've taken heavily from MI6.

Francis Gorman (24:59.426)
two incredible insights there, Matthew. And I think both of them actually resonate quite strongly with me. The second one at the moment is something that I've realized in terms of the quantum problem. I'm not sure if you're familiar with quantum risk and quantum readiness, but it's a surmountable problem that no one individual will solve alone. And therefore, if you don't build alliances through organizations to get on board with the journey,

you're going to fail. I think that's, you know, creating that mission that people can move towards is really important. But the first point you made in terms of your mindset that, know, I can surmount nothing is insurmountable to me. You know, I can, I can, I can move mountains if I need to. That's, that's a really powerful mindset. And I think it's a mindset that's been eroded and to somewhat eroded by a lot of the propaganda and realities of the modern world for, for younger people who can't get housing, who are

disillusioned with the government and a lot of it's creeping through from wars and inflation and you know, all of that, all of that side of the world that's a little less pleasant to talk about. What do think the biggest threat to Europe and the UK and the West is at the moment with the kind of geopolitical stance we're in from your perspective from ex-intelligence?

Matthew Dunn (26:17.308)
Yeah, we live in very interesting and worrying times. The threats are external and from within, I would suggest. The external threats are perhaps obvious, they are state threats, primarily Russia and China. I would cite as the two biggest threats to...

our so-called Western principles, way of life, all of that, and they are very real threats. The work that those countries are doing against us is essentially on a war footing. It is that serious.

And we have other threats such as terrorism. Of course, that's ongoing. There are other countries such as Iran that pose a major threat, particularly to the United Kingdom and Western Europe, the export of assassinations, kidnappings, that side of things. So we have hostile actors surrounding us and their intentions are right clear.

and that is to completely destabilise us to the point of destruction. It won't happen, it won't work, but that is their collective objectives. The perhaps way more complex to some extent issues are what's happening within, what's happened, and you've touched on it in terms of some of the challenges the youth in particular face.

But it is essentially the changes, the transformations to our way of life. The ascension, obviously, of technology. But technology, I would say, in as much as the way it impinges on our daily lives. So at the personal level, our access to data, how we process that data, our relationships with our individual personal IT.

Matthew Dunn (28:35.56)
or that is doing to the minutes, hours of our day, all these kind of things. How we react to access, vast access of information, news and other things from all different quarters, different categories of reliability, all of that kind of stuff. These are problems that I think

are actually drilling down and are actually affecting individuals. For example, you mentioned trust of politics, for example. Well, is it any wonder we don't trust our politicians when every direction we turn, we're getting bad news stories about politics or we're getting gossip or we're getting tittle-tattle or we're information that may or may not be true or whatever. The end result is, okay, who do you trust?

at end of this whole process. There is an argument to say that perhaps historically, and this is not by the way necessarily a good thing, but historically ignorance was bliss. At best we get our information from our weekly newspaper or whatever it will be. But now of course it's a very different landscape. the consequences are quite clear. I genuinely do worry.

particularly for the youth, but not exclusively for the youth, about the effect it's having on their general mental health and wellbeing. I think it's a very troubling, difficult time for individuals now, particularly if they're within their formative years trying to make decisions. That's, know, previous generations, my generation was certainly included with kind of...

be bulldozed into making, right? Go out and buy a house, go and do this, go and get a job. Just don't overthink it, just do it. Now, of course, overthinking is the raison d'etre. It's like a lump it. It's the nature of life.

Francis Gorman (30:45.218)
getting great, great insights there, Matthew. Yeah, ignorance is bliss. I think I was only talking about this the other day that there some study came out that showed the smarter the individual, the more their happiness decreases. you know, I think there is something to that saying. Matthew, I want to kind of finish off by talking about your branch into becoming an author and the books that you've written when you spoke earlier in the conversation about, you know,

running multiple personas at any one time and you'll be able to kind of move fluidly through those. That must have been a powerful anchor to start to write and to start to offload some of that, you know, that imagery and storytelling into something that you can relive the past to an extent or you can create new avenues of reality in the fiction world. did you come across writing? Was it a way to...

kind of relive some of those moments or was it a way to express creatively you know an art that you you missed or was it something different?

Matthew Dunn (31:50.959)
I think it was the creativity really. wasn't anything particularly cathartic or anything like that. I I remember when I was a kid at school, tender age or whatever I was, nine, 10, winning a prize for creative writing, short story I'd written or something like that. And it was in my blood, storytelling. So I do look back on that, my interest.

I was a voracious reader, for example, in my childhood. I look back on all that and think that creativity, that ability to think outside of the box and then the imagination that comes with it, the art of the possible, all these kinds of things, I think probably, you know, was a massive, massive foundation for why in part I was perceived to be ripe for picking by MI6 because MI6 was all about creativity.

And what happened in my case was I finally reached a stage in my career where multiple operations had all concluded. I managed to get that sorted and I was essentially at a crossroads. Okay, know, where do I go? Do I stay in MI6 and go down sort of more senior management track or whatever? Or do I do something completely different?

and I decided that I didn't really want to play the sort of political game and go down the sort of senior management route and try my hand at writing and I did it from going back to our point about ignorance is bliss. I really didn't have a clue about the book industry or had no insight, know, no insider track, no contacts, nothing at all.

So I did probably what any other aspiring author did, just wrote a book and then sent it off to, I think it was about 10 different literary agents blind, I had no idea who they were, and was thankfully picked up by one of them. The books that I wrote, including that very first draft manuscript, are spy novels. And so yes, of course, I'm writing what I know, but, and there is a big but attached, which is

Matthew Dunn (34:13.05)
I am a storyteller. So I am starting with a blank sheet of paper, thinking to myself, what will make a good story, rather than, I don't know, drawing on particular experiences. And I still think my ability to write spy fiction, my experiences in MISIS, I mean, it gives me the technical expertise for sure. But think more than that, it also just gives me a steady hand. It means that when I...

envisage a particular scene or whatever or try and get in the head of a particular character. I kind of feel confident with it because I know how that feels and so that's what it is but I still have to do the hard graft of conjuring up a story that is sustainable over a full novel so there's no shortcuts there.

Francis Gorman (35:04.984)
Sure, no there's not indeed and that's great. thank you for sharing that with me. Matthew, before we finish up, you any advice for somebody who might be aspiring to get into intelligence work? What they should do or start? Is it a lot to do with, you mentioned reading and that's interesting because a lot of people have talked in this field, were avid readers all their life and studied books on...

novelist that wrote about tradecraft etc and you know that formed part of it but have you got have you got any advice for someone who may be thinking of a future career in the intelligence field?

Matthew Dunn (35:42.321)
Yeah, mean, firstly, I think in terms of the intelligence field, that is actually quite a broad field. it depends, for your listeners, depends obviously which country they're listening from, what nationality they are. But let's take the UK as an example to apply to any of the UK intelligence agencies. One has to be a British citizen. But the options are my former employer MI6, this MI5, the security services, GCHQ.

Signals, intelligence, then there's police, intelligence units, army intelligence units. The same would apply if one was an American looking at the American agencies far more. over there, French, German, you name it, the list goes on. So I think firstly, one would need to drill down into what particular aspect of intelligence work is interesting. And that will help define a target organization to look at.

I think, but then in terms of if indeed there is any preparatory work, which I would question by the way, one doesn't need to be an expert in, for example, espionage history and know the ins and outs of it, because any intelligence organisation, agency, whatever, is looking to recruit somebody, is not looking at their knowledge of spy work, they're looking at the individual. I'm thinking, okay.

Can we train this person? Can we make them into a spy? So I think broader things are more important. For example, curiosity is very important. And if one is curious, one reads books. So the book link is there, but I don't think reading books in its own right is the answer. think that just having that innate curiosity is more important. Curiosity in places and also obviously people.

I think is very important. Also, not to be too hard on oneself. It's tough to get into the world of intelligence, expect knockbacks. So have plan Bs and Cs in place. If I can't get into, for example, MI6, okay, why don't I consider the Metropolitan Police Intelligence Unit or Military Intelligence or whatever. So be open-minded about the possibilities if one is particularly

Matthew Dunn (38:08.612)
interested in intelligence work in general terms. But I think, you know, some of the obvious reasons do well in academic work and persevere, you know, make sure one's an all-rounder in terms of other activities and things like that. But also stick to being yourself as well because there is no one size fits all in my experience of becoming a spy. So

just optimize your own personality, your own character, and do not become somebody else. Plenty of time to become someone else when you actually become a spy, but to get recruited into the organization. Just be the best example of yourself, essentially.

Francis Gorman (38:50.498)
Wonderful advice, Matthew. And look, thanks very much for coming on. I really enjoyed the conversation. I the listeners got a lot out of it too, but have a great day and it was great talking to you. Thank you.

Matthew Dunn (38:59.932)
pleasure.