Inside Putin’s Secret War Against the West with Sean Wiswesser

Francis Gorman sits down with former CIA senior operations officer Sean Wiswesser to unpack the evolution, culture, and methods of Russian intelligence. Drawing from nearly 30 years in the intelligence community and his forthcoming book Tradecraft, Tactics, and Dirty Tricks: Russian Intelligence and Putin’s Secret War , Sean argues that Russian intelligence services are not just arms of the state but central to how power is maintained in Russia. The conversation ranges from the Cheka and KGB legacy to Putin’s modern security apparatus, cyber operations, disinformation campaigns, corruption inside the services, and the broader hybrid war being waged against Western democracies. Sean also reflects on the difference between the Russian people and the Russian regime, the danger of unchecked autocracy, and the need for talented young people to pursue careers in intelligence and national security. 

Soundbites

 “Putin is who we thought he was. He’s a Chekist.” 

“We’re not at war with the Russian people. We’re in an undeclared secret war with the Russian intelligence services.” 

“What they were doing in 2016 was attacking our democracy and attacking the very concept of free and fair elections.” 

“Their goal was to sow discord, distrust, and animosity in the American public.” 

“Our strength is in our collaboration, our partnerships, our allies. The Russians don’t have that.” 

“The day starts with corruption.” 

Takeaways

• Russian intelligence is presented here not as a side institution, but as a defining pillar of Russian state power, with roots stretching from the Cheka to today’s FSB, SVR, and GRU. 
• Sean draws a sharp distinction between admiration for Russian culture and people, and condemnation of the regime and intelligence services that suppress freedom at home and destabilize democracies abroad. 
• A major theme is hybrid warfare: cyber attacks, social media manipulation, election interference, and information operations designed less to support one side than to fracture trust inside democratic societies. 
• Corruption inside Russian intelligence is described as systemic rather than incidental, shaping behavior from training academies to field operations. 
• Sean’s warning is that Putin is increasingly dangerous because he is insulated from dissent, surrounded by people unwilling to tell him hard truths, especially after the invasion of Ukraine

Get the book:

Amazon pre-order link: https://a.co/d/0ag2e9sy

Transcript

Hi everyone. Welcome to the Entropy podcast. I'm your host, Francis Gorman. Before we dive in, if today's conversation challenges you, sparks a new idea or sharpens how you think about the world, don't keep it to yourself. Subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone who enjoys staying curious. Today I'm joined by Sean Wiswesser, the former senior operations officer with the CIA. He served in multiple overseas tours and held senior leadership positions such as chief of station and served in joint duty assignments across the intelligence community.


Francis Gorman (01:35.992)
Sean is the author of the forthcoming book, Tradecraft Tactics and Dirty Tricks, Russian Intelligence and Putin's Secret War. It's out on the 21st of April, 2026. So make sure to check it out. The book examines the evolution of Russia's intelligence services, their fight against the West and a role in modern hybrid warfare. Sean, it's lovely to have you here with me today.

Sean (01:56.77)
Thank you, Francis. Thank you for having me. It's my first podcast with someone from one of my ancestors' homelands. And I visited the house. My great-great grandfather was born in County Cork. That's why I'm named Sean. So it's an honor, Francis. Thank you.

Francis Gorman (02:12.046)
why you're so good in the intelligence field, Sean. You've got that Irish blood running through you. Sean, it's lovely to have you here today. And I have the book here with me. It's been one of those reads that has made me pause, take a moment and kind of reflect on the world we live in today. Can I ask you, what was your goal and objective with the book? Who was it targeted at?

Sean (02:13.929)
Hahaha

Sean (02:18.677)
Sean (02:35.863)
Yeah, so thank you, Francis. If it does give you pause, then I've achieved somewhat my mission in writing the book. The book is for the general audience. It's for Americans, for the general public, and our allies across the world. It's meant to warn about and help to preempt and also disrupt the operations of the Russian intelligence services, who I believe in my career of almost 30 years in the intelligence community showed me, they are certainly out to

to attack democracies around the world and suburb freedom of our countries and all of our allies. And so my mission is to expose them for who they are, to discuss their tradecraft and their tactics so that we can better counter them. So that's why I wrote the book.

Francis Gorman (03:26.062)
It's a very noble endeavor to take your life's work and then to sit down and put it on a page so others can learn. From reading the book, the one thing that kind of struck me is the Russian intelligence service. It's a complex machine. And you talk about the evolution of the Russian intelligence service from its time under Stalin to what it is today under Putin. Can you go into that a little bit for me?

Let's just explore that for the audience, please,

Sean (03:54.412)
Yeah.

Sean (03:58.338)
So we have to, we have to, yeah.

Sure, for instance, we have to, course, put the modern Russian intelligence services in their evolution and context so we can better understand them. The book is 10 chapters on their tradecraft. It's not a memoir, although I do share some experiences I had with Russians, and it's not a survey of various, of one service or many services. Instead, it focuses on their tradecraft over 10 chapters in specific areas.

But I start the book in the introduction, and then briefly in the first chapter I talk about the organization of the services. One can't possibly understand the Soviet Union and the modern Russian Federation without understanding the critical and irreplaceable role, really, that the Russian intelligence services and the Soviet intelligence services have played in the functioning of the state. And I would argue the subversion of the state and the chance for a Russian democracy to really flourish.

You know, since the Russian revolution, Soviet revolution of over 100 years ago, Francis, they've played the key role. They've been the drivers within the Russian state and not in a positive form. know, Putin calls himself a Czechist. He uses the term Czechist and he uses it like it's a compliment. The term comes from the Cheka, which was the Čerzečení Komitej, the extraordinary committee for the defense of the revolution, basically. A lot longer term than that.

It was the first intelligence service of the Bolsheviks after the revolution. And the model that they used, Lenin himself said, is you can't have revolution without terror. So he wanted to terrorize the people. He picked Felix Zizinski, the first head of the Cheka, to have that mission of terrorizing the Russian and other Soviet people so that they wouldn't possibly consider counterrevolution. Of course, there was a civil war then that followed the revolution. And indeed, the Chekas practiced terror. You mentioned Stalin.

Sean (05:57.034)
After Lenin died and there was a brief period of some joint rule, Stalin eventually took over, Stalin emerged. And he used the NKVD, what followed on the Cheka, the NKVD, the OGPU, later the KGB, after World War II. Stalin used them ruthlessly against the Russian people. Millions and millions of people died at the hands of the Cheka and then the other intelligence services of the Soviet Union. So that's their history. That's what Putin is proud of.

reveres Zhezhinsky and this very day, Francis, these intelligence services celebrate on 20 December every year, Zhezhinsky Day. They're celebrating one thirsty rulers who terrorized the Russian Soviet people. I think that legacy is important because when Putin claims to the Russians says that the Soviet intelligence and Russian intelligence services were always the elite of society, they weren't. In fact, they were just the ones that were

destroying the chance for the Russian democracy and the intelligentsia to thrive in their country. So it's a myth. It's a carefully cultivated myth that's evolved over the past hundred years. But there's certainly no denying that they've played very critical roles in Soviet and Russian history over the past hundred years. Hope that overview helps. We can talk about each service a little more if you like.

Francis Gorman (07:12.622)
It does indeed. think we'll jump into the services as we as we go through the conversation. But I think it's important to call it. One thing I got from the book is you have a deep appreciation for the Russian people and the Russian, the Russian culture. But you've really focused in on the Russian intelligence services and the threat they pose to the to the West. Is that a fair is that a fair statement that you're.

You're very fond of Russia in terms of what it brings to the table with its people and its culture, but very aware of the tread it brings in terms of its intelligence services and its government's lens on the Western world, if that makes sense.

Sean (07:49.996)
Yeah, thank you. you, Francis. I appreciate that you picked up in the book and you see the way that I wrote it. I have profound respect for the Russian people. I was a Russian literature major, 19th century Russian literature. This is a rich culture, rich language. The people have contributed outstanding contributions to science and mathematics. But unfortunately, they've never had a government really in modern times. Going back hundreds of years, they've never really had a

a government and leaders worthy of the great Russian people. So when I studied there as a student in the 90s, I saw this. I saw a young, struggling democracy. Yeltsin did many things wrong, but he did a lot of things right. One of the things Yeltsin tried to do unsuccessfully was destroy the KGB. He briefly had a chairman named Bakatan who tried desperately to destroy this apparatus of state security, which had, course, terrorized the people.

And unfortunately, Yeltsin failed in that mission. And very quickly, the security services again started establishing themselves and terrorizing the people as they continue to this day. And so I think it's important, as you said, we don't lose track of the fact that we're not at war with the Russian people. I said that in my book. We're in an undeclared secret war with the Russian intelligence services because of their attacks against the West, that their

attacking democracies and they've attacked in a kinetic military conflict They attacked a democracy Ukraine, which we are trying to support militarily as allies and our European allies, of course, are trying to support so Russia Russia Carries the burden of aggression. It's Russia as I pointed out my book that's constantly attacking us if I could share one anecdote Francis You know you read this early in the book I mentioned I was starting my career as a CIA officer decades ago and and one of the Russian intelligence officers I met

had schooled me as a relatively younger officer, I'd ask them, hey, you know, after 9-11, why can't we all get along? Why is it that we keep learning and hearing, and this Russian intelligence officer was relating to me, that America's still the GP, we're the GLAVNY PRATIVNIK, we're the main enemy. And I asked him, as I related in the book, why is that? I don't understand. Shouldn't we all be cooperating against terrorism? And he said back to me, you know, you were the main enemy ever since World War II, you are the main enemy now, you always will be. Don't make any mistakes.

Sean (10:10.593)
for Russia, United States and its allies come first, above all else. And so this was a revelation even for me as a trained intelligence officer. There's no compromising with them. There's no collaborating against common threats. It's a zero sum game and Putin and his Tsikhisti, his Silaviki, which means strong men that rule the country with him, that's their mentality. They're never gonna consider themselves allies of the West or have anything in common with our vision of the world and our vision of democracies and freedom.

Francis Gorman (10:39.47)
That's a really interesting point. was going to pick up and ask you about that, the officer who disclosed that to you during the book, because it did strike me as something that was worthy of a conversation. When I look at the current government in the US's relation with Russia, there's a strange dynamic going on there that wasn't there before with Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin and Ukraine in the middle. Do you think...

that threat vector has shifted slightly or if Russia are still have a very strong focus on undermining the West at every opportunity to get under using Ukraine war as one of those mechanisms to pull those levers essentially in Washington.

Sean (11:22.135)
Well, Francis, you you mentioned one president of current administration. My book's apolitical, as you know. I don't mention any of our US presidents. I focus entirely on our adversaries. I think it's important to note my personal perspective, and I should mention all the views that I espouse now in this podcast and in the book are completely my own. They're not CIAs nor the US government. And that disclaimer is in my book. Well, I think a lot of mistakes have been made with regards to Russia going back the past 30 years. Really, a lot of mistakes, successive administrations.

I think the important thing to remember is that they are the adversary. Our focus should be on them, not on dividing and destroying ourselves from within. That's exactly what the Russian intelligence services want us to do with their active measures. And I know I think we'll talk in more depth about active measures later and how they practice misinformation and disinformation. So I think it's important to note that, you know, for us in the intelligence services, my colleagues and I that I worked with over many decades, Putin

is who we thought he was. He's a Czechist. He says so himself. He talks about it constantly. He reveres Czechist tradition. He is an autocrat. He believes that Russia needs to be led with a strong hand. There's a Russian understanding of the vlozh. This is understanding going back to medieval times even. The belief is that the Russian people have to be ruled by a strong leader like Ivan the Terrible, you know, or

Peter the Great constantly, you have to have these leaders that, you know, have to have a strong hold on the Russian people. I don't believe that. I believe the Russian people could thrive and have accomplished a lot more. There's a famous quote that's, I believe, attributed to Molotov. After Stalin died, the inner collegium of the Politburo, the inner leaders were saying, what do we make of Stalin? What do do about him? And of course, Khrushchev later condemned Stalin and the cult of personality.

One of the quotes, was either Molotov or one of the others, they were talking amongst themselves and supposedly historical records says that one of them said, you know, how can we judge Stalin? We might not have survived World War II without him. What would we have accomplished without him? And another one of the inner circle, maybe it was Zhukov, the general who famously was a hero in World War II. But one of them said, I don't believe that. I don't believe Stalin saved the Soviet Union. Think what we could have accomplished without Stalin.

Sean (13:46.338)
And that's my view. Without these dictators, without this autocratic society, without the disaster of the KGB running the state, think of the great things that the Soviet people might have accomplished, but will never know. So when Putin talks about the elite of Soviet society, remember, this was a broken system. And it's continued on in Russia now, completely corrupt, rampant corruption across Russia today, across the services of the intelligence services in the state.

So it's a complete lie when Putin tries to claim they're the elite of society. They prey on society, really, for instance.

Francis Gorman (14:20.134)
Those, I suppose, inside Sean are really important, especially in the geopolitical system that we find ourselves in today. The world is a fickle place. And you talked about democracy there and disinformation and undermining the American people specifically. In the book, you mentioned Fancy Bear, the hacking group that carried out the cyber attacks joined the 2016 US election. Can you speak to that to me for a minute? And what was the objective there?

Sean (14:44.503)
Sure. Yeah. So the objective, Francis, and this is really important, this has lost a lot in the political end fighting in my own country, which we really need to remember who are the adversaries and what they try to do. What the Russians were doing in 2016 was attacking our democracy and attacking the very concept of free and fair elections. Their goal was to undermine our democracy and our ability to go to the polls and the stations and vote for our candidate of our choice.

You see, for Putin and his regime, and not only Putin, Xi Jinping and China is the same exact, this is threat to him just like it is to Putin, functioning democracies with people that thrive in democracies where economies thrive, like in the United States or the UK or Ireland, that's a threat to them. You can't have that. That's why Putin attacked and wanted to destroy Ukraine. He doesn't want the example of functioning democracies. Remember what the critical issue was for Putin that pushed him towards war.

and his intelligence services pushed him into that corner and said, you have to go to war. It was Ukraine's entry into the EU, the fact that Ukraine wanted to proceed on the path to the EU and to deciding their own choices. So what they did in 2016, Francis, is a long tradition of what they call active measures, like, tibnium erupreatia in Russian. It's also called measures of support, is the modern term that the SVR uses, the Foreign Intelligence Service. So what they did is they decided they were going to use social media in a new way.

using an old method, active measures. Active measures traditionally, Francis, they'll try to take a subject that's favorable to the Russian Federation, for instance, a country entering NATO or Ukraine wanting to enter the EU. They'll target journalists, academics, and others in society where they can get a favorable view of things. Well, back during the days of the Cold War, they would have to bribe journalists or they'd have to win over an academic.

to their way of thinking, the Russians call it making use of a useful idiot, meaning someone's going to do their will, put out their views without necessarily being recruited. Well, in modern times, what changed in 2016, Francis, was they realized the incredible multiplying effect of using social media. So what Yevgeny Progorshin, one of the oligarchs loyal to Putin, his former cook did, is he said, hey, how about if I help in this effort? He volunteered to the intelligence services and said, I'm going to set up this agency

Sean (17:09.577)
with a couple hundred or more of English speaking, very talented young people that I'm going to set up and they're going to build social media accounts in the United States on Facebook and many other forms of social media. And we're just going to go in there and meddle and see how far we can get at what we can do. Now the Internet Research Agency in St. Petersburg was just one of many, Francis that did this across Russia under the watch of the FSB, the SBR and the GRU. They were all engaged in it.

In fact, that group you mentioned, Fancy Bear, was hacking the American Democratic servers at the same time as groups from the FSB and from other intelligence services. So they weren't coordinating very well. What was their goal? Their goal was to sow discord, distrust, and animosity in the American public. Were they successful? All we need to do to realize they're successful is see that in 2020, the same discord continued. And to this very day, I saw news stories today about whether or not foreign

Governments from Venezuela or other countries managed to access voting machines. Did they change the vote count? Former Attorney General Barr said to the American public after the 2020 elections when this was looked into his words, it was bullshit. No voting machines were compromised. But what the Russians managed to do is they've unfortunately had a degree of success in getting the American people to distrust our very electoral system.

And that was their goal, not for any one individual candidate. That was all incidental to what the Russians were trying to do. What they're trying to do is get us to question ourselves and question our ability to function in democracy.

Francis Gorman (18:43.406)
You know, Sean, you're, you're echoing a lady I had on the podcast a couple of weeks back, Elizabeth Bullock. spent three years on the front line in Ukraine. She's a British woman, trying to help Ukrainians that were disabled or at a disadvantage or had young families to get out of the, the part of the war zone. And one of the things that she came back to the UK and Ireland and her places is she's trying to get people to understand that Russia is attacking.

Europe, not just the Ukraine and they're doing it through hybrid warfare. They're tampering with undersea cables, the disinformation, misinformation campaigns. They want you focused on immigration, she said, not on the core problems that surround you. That distraction element seems to have spilled out now from just being focused at the US and is peripheral across the entire Western continent. Would you agree with Elizabeth's analogy and observations?

Sean (19:40.216)
Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I had not had a chance to listen to the other things Elizabeth said, but to that point, Francis, it's an old tactic the Russian and Soviet intelligence services have used for many, many decades. It's not just being used against the United States. It's all of Europe. I use the example, chapter nine of my book, course, is on active measures. I talk about the Brexit, attack on Brexit. The Russians were doing the same thing as they were doing in the United States, and the UK government commented on that.

The most telling thing for me that I mentioned in the book is that when investigations were done, the bipartisan, at the time bipartisan reports of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, which include the current secretary state Marco Rubio, at the time was a senator, he signed off on that report, the DNI report, which represented the view of our entire intelligence committee, what they all agreed with is that the Russians did this meddling in social media and unfortunately had reached millions and millions of potential voters. And what were they doing? Facebook pointed out, Francis.

arguing two sides of the same issue at the same exact time. Well, if they're trying to get one candidate or another elected, you'd think they'd focus on one particular issue and argue just one side of it. The fact that they had their media troll, their social media trolls, sitting and arguing both sides of the issue means they were just trying to amp up the emotion. They're just trying to get society against it to be fighting within itself and for our people to be fighting with one another.

And then they insert narratives like this idea of Venezuelan voting machines that were tampered with. Again, attorney general Barr said no truth to it whatsoever. It was investigated thoroughly. Unfortunately, this is still coming up now in 2026. We're still talking about it. It's very upsetting because I feel like the Russians can continue to get wins every time these false narratives keep getting played out. I believe we do have free and fair elections. I don't believe anyone tampered with the voting machines. I believe the counts were correct and accurate as has been testified.

countless times by many different states that run the elections in our country. But they sow that disunion, that distrust, and for a reason, Francis, because they're trying to make us fractured societies. And they're doing it in Europe, of course, as well, across your continent as well.

Francis Gorman (21:53.037)
I think they're doing a good, good, good job of it at the moment. We do seem to have. Yeah, we do seem to have instability in society in the West. And I think the world in general is quite unstable at the moment. But, you know, that's a whole different topic to get into. Sean, one one role that struck me in the book, the role of a cypher clerk. Can you can you you you talk to that for me for a minute? I thought this was intriguing.

Sean (21:56.137)
Unfortunately, unfortunately.

Sean (22:15.467)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for asking about that. You're the first. So credit to you, Francis. I've done a number of these podcasts talking about the books. So in Russia, Shifra Volchik, he controls the enciphered communications for the Residentura. Residentura is the equivalent of a station, British or American. The station's overseas, CIA has stations overseas, of course. So for the Russians, it's a Residentura of the SFR, the Foreign Intelligence Service, or the GRU, military service.

So, Chief of Alchik is key to the operation. And he has to make sure the telegrams are coming and going encrypted communications to and from what they always call Moscow Center. So, they call their headquarters in Moscow, whether it's the SVR or the GRU, they call it the center. And so, I related in the story that, you know, these code clerks, when we can recruit them in the West, they're a really big deal. I think I talked about the case of Guzenko, a Canadian defector to Canada, early in the Cold War, he made a huge impact.

So for the most part, the Russians in the Residentura, keep these code clerks on a really tight leash. I mean, they don't even let them leave the embassy. Or if they do, they're allowed to leave in pairs. One of the stories CIA let me relate in the book that I put in there was having met a code clerk once early in my career. And I would love if the Russians are, you let them waste a ton of time trying to figure out where it happened and when it happened. We leave it vague, of course, for that reason. But I had a chance to...

to happen upon, I won't say how it happened upon, but one of these code clerks happened to have a hobby he liked to play pool. And I happened upon him and challenged him to a game of pool and we were deep into the game and I was actually beating him when he realized I was an American. And then I introduced myself from the embassy. Well, both his and the other Russian that was with him, their eyes went wide, but he really loved pool. So he wanted to play desperately to play. So I beat him. And then that was really tough for him because he wanted a rematch and the other guy was yanking him by the neck really like, no, no, we,

We gotta get out of here. We really, really, really gotta leave. I'm like, no, come on, please. No, you don't want to rematch? Come on. for, Nizhny Dorozhnaya Druzhba, you know, international friendship. Let's have another game. So yeah, Chief of the Volchiki are important, important targets for intelligence operations. And I related that kind of neat story. I remember I met one of them, at least in my career.

Francis Gorman (24:28.598)
It's fascinating. I love that when I read it, had to go back and kind of read it again. So I fully understood the context. But yeah.

Sean (24:34.615)
Yeah, they got back to the embassy, no doubt they had to write a long report about how they met the American, and then even worse when they realized, oh no, geez, Sean, is he an intelligence officer? Is he CIA by any chance? Yes, I am. If they didn't know it before, yes, I am now. Yes, you know. Exactly, so sorry.

Francis Gorman (24:48.366)
Spoiler alert.

Sean, there's one thing I was thinking about when when I was going through the book and I find this sometimes myself when you start to put down your knowledge on a page, you sometimes it kind of it kind of taps into that back part of your mind or stuff that you forgot. You create this web of of information and it all starts to draw together. Did you find yourself starting to see patterns or?

I suppose questions or answers you'd never taught before as the words came onto the page. Is there anything there that you kind of stood back at the end of and go, well, not only do I have a lot of knowledge here that I've collated over my career, but there are certain patterns, there are certain approaches or techniques deployed by Russia that are very apparent that I would have never taught about in the context before I actually put it on the page.

Sean (25:43.01)
Well, one of the things that I'm proud of with the book, know, for instance, I mentioned it's a team effort, know, no intelligence officer ever does a job alone. Very proud of the fact that a former deputy director of operations, Mike Sulek, he wrote the foreword to the book. And, you know, he noted that I do have a unique approach focused on tradecraft. Well, Mike Sulek, among many other great leaders at CIA, he was one that believed, and CIA always hold me what we said, we said the gold standard of tradecraft.

We always have and I believe we always will. We try to protect our agents with everything we have and we stand by our agents and their families when things go bad. So tradecraft is important. It's important to do it the right way. It's not that mistakes don't happen in the intelligence world, they do. I'm proud of the fact that I mentioned and I'm able to share many stories of colleagues that helped me and I worked with jointly in my career. You mentioned the joint duty assignments that I had. You know, what occurred to me when I look back at sort of the long arc, focusing on tradecraft in particular,

There are stark differences between we and the West. We work with our partners. We work with our allies. We work jointly. We do have a special relationship with your services in the UK. We're very proud of that. We have the Five Eyes intelligence sharing relationship. What does Russia have? Within their country, as I talk about in the book, they hate each other. The FSB, GRU, and SVR, they despise each other. They can't work together to save their lives. They're constantly infighting and undermining each other. I mentioned in the case of the active measures, they were constantly

One upping each other not collaborating one was trying to hack the Democratic server the other service was doing it at the same time and FBI in fact uncovered the second one once they found the first one as the reporting leadership Let's talk about international allies How good is a of an ally is Russia for Venezuela really when it mattered when it really counted They weren't there at all for Venezuela. They don't care about Venezuela. How about Iran? How is Iran doing with that? You know great strategic partnership with Russia

Not going so very well for it, is it? So Russia doesn't care fundamentally about allies or relationships. We do. It's a strength of the United States. believe it always will be. I believe that our relationship in NATO is strong enough. It can sustain any US administration, any administration of any of our countries. Remember, there are some in Europe right now who are not great fans of the partnership with the United States or not fans of supporting Ukraine, which I feel very strongly about in the book, as you know.

Sean (28:06.603)
supporting Ukraine nowhere has it is it's so stark a contrast between freedom and those trying to oppose freedom as in Ukraine So I think that's what stands out to me, you know Our strength is in our collaboration our partnerships our allies and and those relationships and with the Russians they don't have that Francis and there's other things we can talk about like the fact that not only do they not have a gold standard Most of the time it's a drunken standard of incompetent operations and I give plenty of examples in the book of that we can talk about some if you like

Francis Gorman (28:35.738)
One example that stood out to me when you talk about this kind of behavioral aspect of the Russian intelligence services, you touched on corruption. my reading of it as a lay person looking in, be it I'm grounded in security and cybersecurity and have a good awareness of geopolitics is it was every man or woman for themselves, particularly man in this case, I believe, based on some of your analogies.

How rife is corruption and that dominant aggression within the Russian intelligence services?

Sean (29:15.115)
Yeah, it's fundamental to everything that they do. Francis, unfortunately, all of their operations, even some of their better operations. I begrudgingly give some compliments to the Russians in the book. try to be true and accurate, things that they're good at and things that they're a disaster and they fail at quite a bit and they fail often. But corruption bleeds through everything that they do. And their operations, as it were, are fruit from a poisoned tree, as I said in the book, because they're constantly

focused more about themselves, both their services and then individually. I start the book, you know, quote the defector Sergey Tretyakov, who I had the privilege to debrief extensively. I mentioned him at a few points in the book. One of the things early on I mentioned, if you recall Francis in chapter one, I talk about the structure a little bit, but I don't want to bore the reader too much. So I try to share some stories right away about Russians. What are they really like? Well, it's Sergey Tretyakov related. The entire day is about corruption.

The day starts with corruption. Russian intelligence officer is thinking, hey, I got to make some money on the side today. I got to scam. I got to do something to make some money. And sometimes it's on a smaller level. give the example worldwide, Russians are always procuring electronics. Some of them are used for spy operations, but most of the time they'll buy twice as many and claim to Moscow. That was the cost for half as many. They pocket the rest of them. They send them home. They sell them via the diplomatic pouch. This has just been going on for generations.

At a larger level, I give the examples when they're dealing with regimes that have sanctions, like currently is happening in Iran, happened in Iraq before previously. The Russians will take care of large scale scams, like buying an entire tanker of gasoline during the Iraq war. They weren't the only ones doing this. A lot of diplomatic missions were driving across the border to Syria and sell it on the black market. They're in pocket the money. This is the kind of thing that Russian residenture, their stations are busy with these types of ridiculous scams.

all the time, not my words. Sergey Tretyakov talks about it in his book, Kamranjin 2. The corruption is just endemic to everything that they do. And it bleeds into their intelligence organizations. I can give other examples too, Francis, if you like. It starts at the very base level at their academies even. If you'd like, I'll share that one anecdote from the book.

Francis Gorman (31:32.588)
Yeah, please, Sean. Let's, let's, let's have it.

Sean (31:34.924)
Yeah, so let's talk about, know, here's an example at the training academy. young Russian intelligence officer related to me and I put it in the book. They're doing surveillance training, something I was very familiar with. mentioned in the book, I'm an expert in that particular discipline and CIA allowed me to mention that. I was retired out of the senior expert cadre and the director of operations. Well, I know I spent quite bit of my career studying surveillance and counter surveillance. We'll just leave it at that.

So I was always interested to ask Russians about that experience and learn from them and of course debrief their techniques. So I asked this young officer, tell me about surveillance training at the academy. He said, well, you we did our marsh root, but I've had to key, you know, our surveillance checking route. That's what's called marsh root route, but I've had to key checking. So checking route for surveillance detection. said, Oh, how many foot exercises? Oh, you know, you get, you know, a few dozen. We worked against the FSB.

And that led to another corruption story. But the first one that really shocked me, I said, well, what about vehicles? You got to get in the cars, right? I mean, you're going to use cars too? No, no, no, no, no, no, We're not allowed to use the cars. So what are you talking about? You weren't allowed to use the cars. No, the gas in the cars, we have to leave that for the instructors on the weekends because they're going to use them with their girlfriends. They're Lubovniki. Excuse me? You're not allowed to use the vehicles assigned to the students because the instructors get to steal them and take them away on the weekends? He's like, yeah, no, that

That was just normal. We didn't get to use the cars because the instructors take them for themselves and their girlfriends. Oh, okay. Well then part two of the corruption. said, oh, so he told me more about his training and he said, um, they worked against the FSB training teams, which they didn't like. They don't cooperate real well. Well, the students from the SVR will be evaluated. So were the students from the FSB. So related at the end though, I said, how'd you do? What were your marks? He said, well, I should have gotten got ball off. I should have gotten the very top a marks, you know, but I didn't.

what happened? Well, my instructor told me that the FSB team was being evaluated by their special evaluators and I couldn't make them look bad. So he only gave me a B said that I didn't see all the people that I said that I saw in the training surveillance exercises. And the FSB instructor gave him a case of vodka to pay him off. He gave me two bottles of it. So, wow. I did quite a bit of instructing my career at CIS. Our students thought they had it hard at CIS training academy.

Sean (33:53.272)
I wonder how I would do explaining to them, I'd like to give you the highest grades, but I can't because another instructor paid me off and here's two bottles of vodka and compensation. mean, Francis, these stories, you just can't make this up. I mean, this is Russia at its very base, completely corrupt level. And the thing that struck me was this officer was told from the very get-go, hey, this is what your career is going to be like. That's what instructor told him when he gave him the two bottles of vodka. Get used to it. You got to get along if you're going to make it in this service.

Thankfully, he decided not to get along. He made a better choice for himself and his family to eventually resettle in the United States. I mean, these stories, a lot of people say they enjoy the stories, Francis, because he can't make that up. That's just too genuine for anybody that's lived in Russia. That type of corruption, again, bleeds into everything they do.

Francis Gorman (34:40.204)
Yeah, I think, when you read the stories, definitely does help bring the world to life. It did for me anyway, Sean, when was going through the book. When I look at the world today, do you think Putin is more dangerous than he ever was?

Sean (34:57.015)
I think so. Sadly, Francis, Putin reminds me of many ways of Hitler when he was in the bunker. Now, I'm not accused. The Russians have committed many atrocities and war in Ukraine, and they're continuing to commit them. I don't think it's an appropriate analogy to say that Putin is on the level of the atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazi regime. But they're both criminal regimes carrying out aggressive wars without any justification whatsoever.

The analogy I'm making specifically though, what I want to focus on is when Hitler was in the bunker towards the end of the war, there wasn't a single general or any of his inner circle who would ever speak the truth to him. So nobody was speaking the truth to Hitler anymore. had wiped out all opposition after the Valkyrie plot in 1944 when Stauffenberg and the other generals tried to kill Hitler. Unfortunately, they didn't succeed. Well, Hitler used it as a final purge against everyone in the military and society that could possibly stand against him.

Well, so for the past 20 plus years, Francis, you've had a constant purging of also any opposition whatsoever inside Russia has been purged or intelligence you have left or they've been killed like Navalny was killed. And we know now that he was killed. Your government, Germans and others have pointed out that we have conclusive evidence Navalny was killed. So were others. Anna Polokovskaya, a brave hero journalist, was killed. Many other Russian leaders were killed. Anybody that tried to oppose it.

So in the inner circle, the scary situation now, Francis, is he doesn't have anyone speaking the truth to him. So I put the blame for the Ukraine war squarely on the lap of the Russian intelligence services. They carry the highest burden next to Putin himself for launching this unjust, horrible war of aggression, the largest suffering in Europe, largest scale war in Europe since World War II. It was the Russian intelligence services that talked Putin into it and said, hey, you can win.

and we're going to help you win and we'll have prominent roles in it. The FSB in particular, his old agency that Putin headed as director in the nineties. And so nobody's speaking the truth to him anymore. Francis, that's a really scary thing. Nobody's willing to say, Vladimir Vladimirovich, maybe not such a good idea to go to war with a brother Slavic people, the Ukrainians who until that massive invasion in 2022, even after 2014,

Sean (37:19.393)
What had happened in Ukraine? were still lot of Ukrainians willing to think that they could live in peace with Russia. That maybe they could find a way, a middle path between Europe and Russia. Now take the poll numbers of how Ukrainians feel now. Now they know Putin and Russia and the current regime for exactly who they are. So that's, think, the scariest thing, Francis. I just don't think there's anyone keeping him in check anymore, unfortunately.

Francis Gorman (37:41.988)
And that is scary for Europe in general, think, Sean. And it's a sobering thought to hold in our minds as we move forward into a world of unknown trauma. We seem to be, it seems to be a war every week, the way things are going. But yeah, that just seems to be the world we live in. Sean, I always ask ex-intelligence people when I have them on the podcast, for listeners out there who

a deep interest in this field and are considering a career in intelligence or foreign policy or national security. Look back on your career. Have you got any advice you could give to those individuals?

Sean (38:24.341)
Yeah, thank you for asking, Francis. I related in the book. I spent a lot of time, almost three decades government and then some consulting contracting world still now. I've invested a lot into the next generation. I believe in it. I was an instructor within the intelligence community. I talk about that some in the book. I was joking with you about teaching at some of our training academies.

I believe that we need talented young people to enter government service in the UK and Ireland and our allies across Europe and across the world. It's no different than the United States. We need talented young Americans to say, yes, when called on, I'm going to serve. I'll serve my country. I'm proud that I served all over the world with CIA and the intelligence community, 12 years overseas, many different countries. I served in conflict zones, served in active war zones on more than one occasion. I sometimes worry that

Current generation of Americans might be discouraged. We've had to do government cutbacks. I don't argue and debate those policies. I'm not a politician. What I believe though, Francis, is that there's always a place for young Americans that want to serve their country. I encourage them to explore the intelligence community. There's some great career guides out there from CIA and other retiree organizations. I'm sure there's the same in the UK. For me, what I tell, speak to a of high schools and colleges trying to encourage groups to consider the intelligence community.

I had a blast, for instance. I had good years and bad years, not just good weeks and bad weeks. A friend and mentor of mine from UNC Chapel Hill, his name's Dick Cone, one of the best professors I ever had. I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning his name, but he told me when I started my career in government, he was a great mentor and friend. said, you're going to have good years and bad years. And I always quote that. said, it's true. Sometimes you have a bad boss or you have better bosses at different times. I had many more good years than bad years. I enjoyed my career thoroughly. I met my wife overseas.

My son's got to live with us overseas. So I think it's a rewarding career. It's a challenging career to work in intelligence. We can't always get it right 100 % of the time, but my colleagues in CIA and the other intelligence community colleagues I had the privilege to work with. And as you know, Francis, I dedicate the book to my colleagues, to my family, but also to my colleagues from the intelligence community that we fought within the fight, as I say in the book. It's a noble profession and we need good people to serve.

Francis Gorman (40:45.647)
Thanks, Sean. And I would say to anyone interested in the career to maybe pick this book up and give it a give it a read. It's definitely a good knowledge source to especially understand the Russian intelligence services. If that is an area you would like to specialize in. Sean, before we finish up, you finish off with the epilogue in the book and kind of a nod to the hero spies. Do you want to do you want to just kind of finish off in that note? And we'll we'll we'll talk about that for a second.

Sean (41:07.894)
Yeah.

Yeah, sure. Thank you. Thanks for asking that, Francis. You know, I talk about at the end of the book in the epilogue, you know, just like we were reflecting on just now, you know, it's a long career that's been intelligence around the world. I wanted there to be no mistake at the end of the book that there's my disdain and our disdain from CIA and my colleagues and I for the Russian intelligence services, how ruthless they are, what they've done to Russian society. But I have nothing but profound respect for the Russian intelligence officers who worked

as assets for our community, for CIA and FBI and other joint cases that I worked. They risked their lives, many of them, and they risked everything. And not all of them succeeded, and I pay tribute to some of those cases in the book. I'll leave that to the readers. But for me, it was a profound sense of mission and respect for those agents that I always carried with me through my career. It really was an honor to work with them.

Any of them that may hear my voice, if they've defected or not, I try to protect them very carefully in the book. You know, I express that in the book. I say, you know, there was this profound respect and appreciation for the sacrifices they made. Also related in the book is important to reflect Francis. The Russians I worked with who did make it to the U.S. and are living in our country now with their families, they have a good life, but they never give up on Russia. There's things about Russia that they all comment on. They miss and Sergey Tretikov passed away sadly.

many, many years ago. He loved Russia. He loved the Russian people, culture, traditions. He just couldn't stand that there wasn't a worthy government, a government worthy of the greatness of the Russian people. And he was willing to risk his life for it. Very talented man, a dedicated Russian who believed in the people but not in the corrupt government. And he made a new life for himself and his family in the United States. So that's what the epilogue's about. And that was what my mission was about, why I went to work for CIA and why I continued it.

Sean (43:02.433)
for many decades is I was trying to help the Russian people in their quest for freedom. And I believe we still need to do that. At the same time, we need to present a credible deterrent, of course, against Putin and all of his designs against the West. So thank you for giving me a chance to mention that and pay some respect to the Russian, those Russians, not just intelligence officers, but of course agents of various professions that have risked their lives helping the United States and our allies.

Francis Gorman (43:30.029)
No, I appreciate it, Sean. I think it's important. Like I said, my take away from the book was you have a deep respect for the Russian people and the Russian culture. So I think it's important that you also get to thank those who help serve the West in that regard. Sean, I suppose we've talked a lot about the book. You might as well tell people when it's out and where to get it just in case they want to know.

Sean (43:52.248)
Yeah, thank you. So 21 April, it's available worldwide. It's available on Amazon, all of your major book sites in the US, Barnes & Noble, many other bookstores, private bookstores. In the UK, it's going to be available in paperback in the UK. And so that's available in bookstores and via Amazon. Please order it now. It takes a little while sometimes, depending where you are in the world. It may take a week or two in the US. It's usually immediately available. So starting 21 April, it's called Tradecraft Tactics and Dirty Tricks.

Russian Intelligence and Putin's Secret War. I hope you'll give it a chance. The book is about countering the malign influence of the Russian intelligence services around the world, and that's why I wrote the book. Francis, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Francis Gorman (44:33.615)
It's been a real pleasure to have you on Sean and thanks for coming on the show and sharing with us your knowledge and your experiences. I think the listers will get a lot out of it.

Sean (44:42.753)
Thank you. Thank you. It's been an honor.

Francis Gorman (44:45.103)
Thanks very much.