Green Fix
Welcome to the Green Fix, the climate & sustainability podcast for Australian corporations and their ESG practitioners. We explore the top challenges and opportunities in the industry, how they are impacting your business and your work, so that you can keep your sanity.
Green Fix
How Bonobos, Vultures and Midges are Running Our Economy, with Natalie Kyriacou OAM
What if the most honest business strategy was as simple as “keep things alive”?
In this episode of Green Fix we meet award‑winning environmentalist and author Natalie Kyriacou, where we unpack how biodiversity, climate stability, and social equity quietly hold up every supply chain, balance sheet, and brand promise we care about. From a tiny midge that makes chocolate possible to vultures that prop up public health, Natalie brings research‑rich stories that make the stakes unmistakable - and the solutions tangible.
She confronts the extinction crisis with equal parts humour, curiosity, and urgency, weaving together quirky stories - from hippos to financiers betting on whale poo - to illuminate our hidden dependencies on nature. Her book, lauded as “the most important environmental book of our times” and praised as “racy, raucous, and riveting,” is a bold call to action for anyone from board directors to city dwellers.
You can find Natalie's book at your local bookstore or online at these outlets.
Natalie's Recommendation to our listeners:
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Loreto Gutierrez
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We are the only species that argues over whether we should maintain the environmental conditions necessary for our own survival. Your fate and the fate of your children are tied to the fate of nature.
SPEAKER_00:So if that if isn't reasoned enough to advocate for nature, then I don't know what is the Welcome to The Green Fix, the climate and sustainability podcast for Australian corporations and their ESG practitioners. We explore the top challenges and opportunities in the industry and how it impacts your business and your work so that you can keep your sanity. I'm your host, Dan Leverington.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm your host, Loretta Gutierrez, and today we are in conversation with Natalie Kiriaku, award-winning environmentalist, author, presenter, and company director. Natalie was awarded the Medal of Order of Australia and the Forbes 30 under 30 for her contributions to wildlife and environmental conservation. She's also a board director at the Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife in Care Australia, and the founder and chair of My Green World. Natalie's expertise lies in the intersection of climate, nature, and social equity issues. Her new book, Nature's Last Dance, explores how power, propaganda, and profit influence the fight for the planet, which is a topic that our listener is very well versed in. Natalie, welcome to The Green Fix. Thank you so much for having me. We would love to start by giving our listener a glimpse into your journey into nature and sustainability.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I spent my late teenage years getting rejected from every job I ever applied for. And on one occasion, I was rejected from a job that I didn't even apply for. So I was faced with some pretty undeniable evidence that I was both unskilled and wildly undesirable to the entire labour market. So I decided to just do things that I was passionate about and hope for the best. And that's how I became, you know, what every parent dreams their child will become, which is a full-time volunteer for a variety of wildlife conservation organizations. But it's actually quite insulting to assume that charities will just take any volunteer. I had to beg them to let me volunteer. And then I became a university student, which meant that not only was I not being paid to work, I was paying to learn. My original intent was to be a journalist. And the hope was that I could report on environmental and human rights abuses. So I completed a bachelor's degree in journalism, and then I started my master's degree in international relations, which is essentially international law and politics. But while I was doing my master's, I had spent a few months working and living in Borneo and Sri Lanka working with endangered species there. Anyway, long story short, I got my underwear stolen by orangutans, worked with orphaned orangutans, came back to Australia and had an entirely new mission where I wanted to work with young people to engage them in wildlife and environmental issues. And I wanted to support charities around the world and communities. And so I started a passion project, which was a wildlife and environmental nonprofit. And that passion project ended up sort of getting away from me a little bit and became a proper charity. So by the time I had finished my master's, I was the CEO of an organization and was no longer on a mission to be a journalist, but I was a charity worker. And so um I spent quite a few years working in the nonprofit sector and realized that they were up against some serious systems of power. Then I became interested in the forces that shape environmental destruction or the systems and power dynamics that determine whose voices are heard and whose were silenced, or the structures that decide who pays the price for prosperity, whether why some forests can stand and some species vanish and some communities flourish and some are forgotten. And so I entered into corporate world to better understand these systems. Um and I kept training and trying to immerse myself in the mechanics of change, working with corporations, with governments, with communities, with nonprofits in Australia and abroad. And today I'm very grateful and lucky to have this career that is honestly my dream career. I get to talk about the environment every day in a whole bunch of contexts. And I, as you mentioned, I wrote my first book all about nature. So my career has been, I think the consulting word for it is non-linear but full of surprises.
SPEAKER_00:The golden thread that that runs through your journey. Having read your book, um, Nature's Last Dance, it makes so much sense that this is this book has come out of that journey that you've been on. And I think that authentic connection to nature and and the environment is so clear. Can you tell our listener a little bit about the book before we are before we start?
SPEAKER_02:It's called Nature's Last Dance, Tales of Wonder in an Age of Extinction. And it explores the way that nature shapes our humanity, how it shapes our culture, our society, our politics, our economics, and our entire human civilization. But it's told through a range of really quirky stories. So I use sometimes strange, sometimes funny, sometimes joyful, sometimes tragic stories as hooks to explore broader themes. So, you know, I cover a golden toilet to talk about consumption, or a great emu war to talk about survival of the fittest, or biases in our understanding of evolutionary theory. This book isn't more a mainstream audience. It is I know that people are reluctant to pick up an environmental book, particularly at this time, but this book is for anybody and everybody. And I uh my hope was that I could create a book that has at least one story in there for everybody.
SPEAKER_01:So I do believe your book is for everyone. It's so charming, it's funny, it's really engaging, it hooks you in. It's also extremely well researched. There's over 700 references in there, which is incredible. So can you tell us a little bit about that creative journey and the writing process and the research process for the book?
SPEAKER_02:I really appreciate that. It is heavily researched. Usually, if you see a book that has that many references, you would think it would be a textbook or something that's quite dry, but it's not that. It was, I know that the stories that I've put in there sound so wild and unbelievable that I wanted to make sure that I had great sources for them, but also just I wanted this to be a rigorous book. Um, so I went through a few few processes with this book. This book was the greatest joy to write. I just loved it, but there was a few layers where I needed to make sure that I had all of the facts right, that it was heavily researched, that I'd drawn on wide-ranging opinions, that I was considering a wide range of viewpoints. I also was going through at times quite dense and dry research. And then I had to find ways to make it fun or find something really comical in that in that research. And I enjoy doing that. I enjoy finding these, you know, I was going through the minutes of meetings with between geologists. And I can tell you that it's very dry. Like geology meetings, if you're not a geologist, oof, there it's some dry stuff. And then I would find these gems, things that, like, you know, these drama in in a geologist meeting or these funny nicknames. And so I was trying to, always trying to find the humor or joy or inspiration in in these materials that people wouldn't often look at. But the actual process of writing, it was for me addictive. Um, and I I also say that knowing that I had I've had quite an idyllic experience. I loved every single minute of this book, of writing it, researching it, editing it. I happy cried, not stopped happy crying over this book for almost two years now. I'm so passionate about it. It was an absolute privilege to interview the people that I interviewed. It was a privilege to capture the stories of people that we've never heard of who are just heroes, who just give everything for nature. I loved finding ways to try to weave in humor or joy or tragedy into stories. Um, for me, I could not stop writing. I was so addicted to it because it is a labor of love. So this book is my whole heart and it's my whole brain, which is, you know, going to be really embarrassing if people hate it a lot because I tried so hard. So I would, but my best times in terms of process, I'm I'm quite, I'm run by chaos. Like my, I mean, I do have pragmatism in my life, but I do thrive a little bit in chaotic environments. So, um, and I don't have, I don't like to be too structured. But generally in the mornings when I don't have any creativity, but I can work really hard. So I can pound out like seven hours of research, getting facts, you know, writing kind of boring stuff. But then it's in the evenings where I like basically romance myself and light candles and have music and drink hot chocolate and I can write, and that's where I'm more creative. So I can go back over some of those facts and add more lyricism to them, or poetry to them, or you know, think of these new angles, which essentially meant that I was just writing constantly.
SPEAKER_00:We'd love to chat about some of the some of the examples that you've alluded to. So, like in in part one, you talk about the intersection of carbon and nature and and the five major threats to biodiversity, habitat loss, uh, to pollution, climate change, overexploitation of organisms, and invasive species. We'd really like to explore the link to the business environment that you've been able to pull out through uh through this book.
SPEAKER_01:That's right, Dan. I think what would be interesting, Natalie, is to hear particularly how a company's financial success is directly linked to biodiversity and what this could mean for our listeners on their day-to-day work and sustainability.
SPEAKER_02:Well, to destroy nature is to destroy the long-time viability of your company. Nature isn't just a resource, it is the foundation upon which all of our industries rest. So clean water, pollination, fertile soil, climate stability, and climate regulation, these are life support systems of the planet and by extension, the life support systems of humanity and of global commerce. We cannot survive without them. There is not a single business in the world that does not rely on nature. You take away those things like clean water, pollination, fertile soil, climate regulation. Businesses do not exist. Um, so if you're a timber company or you're building a new factory, a business, a beverage company depending on fresh water, supermarket that relies on, you know, the existence of pollinators to keep its shelves stocked, a fashion company requiring healthy soil to, you know, produce cotton for their t-shirts. Um, every company in the world is dependent on nature. So um I know there's a lot of conversation about, okay, so businesses need to understand what the like what is the value for them to protect nature. And I'm getting a little bit tired of that question because I'm like, the value to you is that you stay alive and your business stays alive. There is just no existing as a business without nature. It is in your best interest to protect it. And maybe if you're a company that relies on forests, the forests they might not be disappearing in the next two years or the forests that you rely on, but they are disappearing. As a company or as a company director, you should be looking at short-term and long-term risks. Nature destruction is the highest short-term and long-term risk to your business. Not to mention the first point of call you can go to is insurance organizations and listen to what they're saying about nature and how, you know, we're going to have homes and businesses that are uninsurable in the in the not too distant future because of nature destruction and climate change. And so when we say a company's financial success being tied to biodiversity, what I'm saying is your financial success is that you can stay alive. Like that's that's success in my mind. If you want to stay alive, you should care about nature.
SPEAKER_00:I um I gave a presentation a few weeks ago, and I was saying if uh econ 101 are the four factors of production that we've all kind of grown up understanding, the world that we're actually living in is econ 2025. And I think that fits very well with with uh your description of nature as well. And we'd love to hear how uh one of the world's most recognizable brands actually depends on a single insect in order to generate their profits.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, Mars Incorporated. Mars is, you know, multi-billion dollar company, and almost all of its fortune is completely attributable to a tiny little irritating insect called the midge. It's a those little biting insects. It's a relative of the fly, but it is tasked with a job of disproportionate importance because it is the near exclusive pollinator of the cacao tree, which is the plant that produces cocoa beans and chocolate. Without the midge, we do not have chocolate. And without chocolate, Mars Incorporated would never have been able to drive any of its profits. Um, and we have these this really interesting scenario playing out because majority of cocoa comes from West Africa. And West Africa is experiencing nature-related disasters, I would say. Mass deforestation, which ironically is often a result of cacao farms and plantations, climate change, and climate change is impacting the ability for forests to thrive. And so we're faced with a scenario where the chocolate industry needs healthy forests and a stable climate to be able to produce chocolate. And both of those things are suffering as a result of the chocolate industry. And this is an industry that, you know, employs almost 50 or whose, you know, 50 million livelihoods depend on this industry. And so when you think about it like that, you've got one tiny little irritating biting insect that nobody likes, that nobody's heard of, and you have 50 million livelihoods dependent on it, and one of the world's biggest companies in the world entirely dependent on it. And so when people ask me, what's the value in of us protecting nature, I'm like, what do you mean? Look at the midge.
SPEAKER_01:I love that story, and it's such a good representation of the intricacies of you know, supply chains in business. It's only one of many of the stories that you're telling of how of all these overlooked ways that we are intertwined with the natural world. So from well poo to drunk moose. Is there one particular of your stories from the book and that you think illustrates serious risks that nature can pose to business, both from operating from the operating side to supply chain, whether they are aware of it or not? I do have a few. Can I talk about vultures?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, please. Yeah, it's a question I need to ask more often. So this is related to government and business and health systems, but it rather than focusing directly on a company supply chain, it actually gives a view of devastating nature destruction can be to the entire economy. So in India, in the it was in the 1990s, vulture populations were declining. And vultures are nature's cleanup crews. So they have a really important job, and that job is basically to eat dead things. They live off carcasses of, you know, wild animals and domestic animals of dead livestock and things like that. Um, so their cleaning services are really, really important to humanity and to nature alike. When they eat the remains of these decaying bodies, they're preventing stench, but they're also petrol and carbon emissions, eliminating disease and bacteria that's usually released during decomposition. Without them, disease spreads and climate change can worsen. Anyway, in the 1990s, a vulture population started dying on mass. And it they had a population of about 50 million vultures and it was plummeting to near zero within a couple of years. And they soon realized that the cause of it was a drug, a veterinary drug that vets were using on livestock to treat them. And so when the livestock was dying and vultures were eating it, they were getting poisoned. So the governments quickly realized what was happening. Um they banned the drug, and of course, vets quickly complied and stopped using the drugs, but a lot of damage had already been done. There had already been a significant decline in vulture populations. That decline led to half a million people in India dying, and it also costs the Indian economy$350 billion. That cost is just out of this world. That is one single species and how heavily reliant we are because of their cleanup services. Um, so I should mention the vulture populations are rebounding now. It shows that with interventions, recognizing when we're causing harm, fixing it, and then putting care back into conservation efforts, this scenario can be not reversed, but improved upon. I think that's probably one of the most startling examples of how a species that is sort of globally mocked for being hideous and unattractive to people is one of the most important species that we have.
SPEAKER_00:Hearing you talk about the vultures, uh, I think we're doing them a disservice by likening them to private equity firms.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. It's rude.
SPEAKER_00:Um continuing the the upward trend of that uh of that story, all Australians growing up in in the 80s and 90s um were aware of slip slop slap, no hat, no play, and that was as a direct result of the hole in the ozone layer. Um the ozone layer has started to close and is projected to close completely by the 2060s. So the two uh historical figures who were key to that was uh Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. What do you believe this successful international collaboration can teach us about overcoming political divides uh in order to address global environmental crises? It is a great story.
SPEAKER_02:1980s, Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, the darlings of the conservative world, they teamed up and saved the world. And it was particularly interesting because those two figures were very much against regulation. But when they perceived a threat to their population, and that that threat being the hole in the ozone layer, they acted. They acted decisively. What this resulted in was the Montreal protocol. Um I've I've seen articles pop up saying, remember we used there was all of that um alarmism around the hole in the ozone layer, um, that never came to be anything. And I'm like, no, no, no, we fixed that. That that was that's actually the most successful environmental thing that's ever happened. It's um it's it's quite a remarkable story. One of the crucial elements of success to that was that Margaret Thatcher was a scientist by trade. She understood the science and she had a great friendship with Ronald Reagan. So Ronald Reagan listened to Margaret Thatcher and respected the science. He had also suffered from skin cancer recently. So he understood the impacts that an environment where there was a hole in the ozone layer could have on human populations. So it was two leaders of the world recognizing that science needs to be understood and acted upon. And they acted decisively. One reason for success was really strong and unequivocal leadership from two of the world's most powerful countries. Another was that there was a really clear and well-articulated goal. Addressing climate change today and nature destruction is a little bit different and a little bit more complex. You've seen all of the United Nations agreements. We have a lot of goals. We have a lot of targets. We're not great at meeting them, but we're really great at making targets. The Montreal Protocol, it was a pretty clear target to, you know, phase out a couple of chemicals. Industry at the start wasn't really on board and they lobbied against it. But with the leadership of Thatcher and Reagan, and then having a few, you know, powerful industries or organizations pushing for it, and you know, the help of activists, community groups, um, scientists also pushing, um, they managed to get industry on board, but they first had to prove that it was financially viable for them. It also, it was legally binding, and there was no, there was no other option. It was it was very much set out as this is what you have to do. There is no other option for you. There is no backing out of this, you need to find alternatives. And whereas we don't really have that in climate and nature at the moment. It's like, we would like if you would do this, and we're going to sort of try to incentivize this, but at the same time, we're disincentivizing it. And yeah, it was overall strong, strong leadership, which was particularly powerful coming from conservatives, a really clear, well-defined goal, legally binding agreements. They had mechanisms to support economies and clear alternatives for industry. Decades after the signing of the Montreal Protocol, Ronald Reagan's Secretary of State George Schultz, he offered a glimpse into the mindset of um Reagan during the ozone crisis and environmental challenges more broadly. He said that indecisively to implement the Montreal Protocol and ban environmentally harmful chemicals was, in Reagan's view, an insurance policy. Um sometimes, you know, science is not really certain beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's a process of discovery. But Reagan knew that even if the science wasn't and isn't ever 100% certain, the risks of inaction were too great. And then the Secretary of State George Schultz then said in the case of the Montreal Protocol, the people who were worried were right.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, they often are. Natalie, I want to um switch gears a little bit and talk about um something that you talk about in your book, and I'll quote is the extraordinary lengths ordinary people go to in order to rescue species and environments. And there's a one beautiful story in your book, and you talked about the oil spill in South Africa and how people rallied from all over the world to save penguins. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that for our listeners.
SPEAKER_02:So in the year 2000, there was an oil spill off the coast of South Africa, and that oil spill took place in the home of one of the largest colonies of vulnerable African penguins. Within hours, you had thick oil gushing from this vessel. It wasn't a huge amount of oil compared to other disasters, but because of the location, it could potentially wipe out nearly half of the world's total population of African penguins. News of the oil spill started to reach around the world. And what happened next was truly one of the most remarkable rescue efforts that the world has ever seen. Phones started ringing throughout the night, emails were sent, people started gathering supplies, the zoos around the world started connecting with each other. You had Brazil, Ireland, New Zealand, France, Germany, Australia, Poland, Singapore, Canada, Hungary, Netherlands, UK, the US. They all heard the call and they all started rallying their teams to try to save these African penguins. And we had NGOs involved, the Red Cross showed up, I4 showed up, WWF showed up right across the world. People started flying in and traveling in to help South Africa rescue its penguin populations. And then volunteers came. Volunteers came from all over the world. It was a whole mix of people: students, doctors, locals, young people, old people, children, grandparents. There were people that came in designer clothes, some in wetsuits, you had fishermen coming in to rescue penguins. It was the largest volunteer workforce ever assembled in the world, and it was all to rescue a penguin. And for months and months, people kept coming and coming. They bought, you know, wheelbarrows and forklifts. They donated wash tubs and garden hoses. You had nurses coming bringing stuff from the hospitals. The Red Cross was there to bandage up people's fingers because they were getting bitten from trying to force feed penguins. There was a time when they had volunteers answering emergency phones for the penguins, and there were over 28,000 calls for people that were asking how they could help. Australians sent over needed sweaters for penguins. A seven-year-old girl donated the contents of her piggy bank to protect the penguins. They set up tents, they built little villages, and it was all centered around the birds. All in all, 45,000 people showed up and donated half a million hours of their time to save a little penguin. 40,000 penguins were saved. 90% of the penguins that were oiled were captured, rehabilitated, and released back into the world. And I use that story to talk about how many people there are in the world that just show up. I think the majority of the people in the world are kind and good. They care about the community, they care about the species around them. They want to do good. They want to be part of a community that does good. They help each other. We we hear stories of destruction, we hear stories of abuses of power, we hear stories of megalomaniacs. But I truly think, particularly after writing this book, that the majority of the people in the world, they are people like that. They're people that knit sweaters for penguins and volunteer their time to protect species. They're good people and we don't hear about their stories enough. And I think we need to hear about their stories more, both to inspire us to do better, but also to pay tribute to these sort of simple things that we take for granted that are quintessentially human.
SPEAKER_01:And Natalie, I I love that story. And I wonder if you have any advice for people who may feel a little bit disconnected from Nietzsche at the moment. You know, you live in a city, you have your corporate job. Do you have any advice for how people can connect to this culture of conservation? Yeah, absolutely. There's a few things.
SPEAKER_02:First of all, the simple things going outside and and looking up, looking at the world around you. I'm lucky enough now to live in Sydney and I I can take a short walk and be at the beach and see the ocean or swim in the ocean. You know, most people in Australia, they are quite close to either a national park or a beautiful forest or a green space in the city. We have birds and an amazing variety of wildlife all around us still. We're so fortunate to have that. And while we do have species disappearing at an alarming rate, we can still see this, we can still see so much wildlife around us. So look up. Look up and see the birds in the trees. Sit under a tree on your lunch break. Appreciate what you have around you. Don't take that for granted. I think that needs to become a real habit that we need to embed. Also, I think the age of technology is changing our behavior in some really concerning ways. One of the ways is that we don't make eye contact and probably don't stop and chat to people or our neighbors or people in our community so much anymore. So I would like to see a world where we look up from our mobile phones and make eye contact with somebody in the park, talk to them. That's often how movements can start as well. If you are sitting in your local park and you notice that maybe they're cutting down trees and you don't want them to do that anymore, and you have a chat with a neighbor, and that can turn into a bigger conversation with other neighbors, and then that turns into a visit to the local council, and then that turns into a movement to protect local park. I very much believe in the power of looking up, speaking to your neighbors, crossing these social divides that we have to find the points of connection, find things that you have in common, make friends with new people and start your own movement. If you don't want to start your own movement, then there are so many volunteer resources. There are so many communities that you can join. There are, you know, the local, you can go on local council website and they have a huge amount of volunteering opportunities, whether it's nature restoration projects, beach cleanup projects. There's, you know, Australian Conservation Foundation, Land Care, there's WWF, Rising Tide, Surfers for Climate, Farmers for Climate. There's both big NGOs and local community groups that that are mobilizing communities. Um, and they have a lot of resources available to be able to join them. There's also places like Wildlife Victoria or WIES that are doing uh wildlife rescue and wildlife care. We had a really big problem in Australia where majority of our wildlife rescuers and carers are over the age of 40. The majority women, and we do not have the next generation of young wildlife carers and rescuers coming in to protect our world's wildlife. We need them. They are a crucial part of the Australian workforce that are underrecognized and underpaid. So we need young people to be sort of wildlife rescuers and wildlife carers. So that's another opportunity.
SPEAKER_01:Something that I was quite apparent as I was reading the book, and I really enjoyed about your book is how you revised a lot of perspectives around the role of gender and how you revised biases that have geared science, that have geared research, assumptions. I wanted to ask you why was it important for you to shed light on this particular perspective in the book? What were some of the most fascinating finds around gender biases?
SPEAKER_02:Well, when we talk about our understanding of nature, our understanding of evolution, our understanding of humanity, much of that has its origins in Charles Darwin's theories of evolution. Darlin was a brilliant mind, contributed immensely to our understanding of the world today. But he was a product of Victorian society, and he was a product of Victorian society biases, which deemed women, also deemed people of color as inferior. He likened female animals to wives. He claimed that males were superior to females. And unfortunately, these biases shaped some of his theories. He focused almost exclusively on the male of a species, and he studied a handful of species and then portrayed males as being dominant and courageous. And then he largely ignored the females of the species because he deemed them to be passive and weak, while he also deemed human women to be passive and weak. And that's why today we have all of these, we have a lot of dominant narratives about men being like wolves and wolfpacks and alpha males. And they're based on pretty warped understandings of evolution. And so, in reality, nature's full of surprises. In seahorses, males carry the babies. In spotted hyenas, females are the aggressors. In lions, females hunt and they're central to pride survival. And today, over the last 30 to 40 years, less than 10% of the research studies on nature are focused on the female of a species. Majority of them are focused inclusively on the male of a species. And this is bad news for men and women because it just means that we have a real really narrow interpretation of the role of men and women in society. And so in my book, I talk about bonobo clitorises. Um I say that bonobos are feminist icons. Um, I also actually also talk about snake clitorises. Um basically, can I talk, can I talk about bonobo clitorises? I'm going to. It's about to happen. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I would expect nothing less, Natalie. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:So please. Bonobos. Bonobos are a great ape and they bear a resemblance to a chimpanzee. Chimpanzee societies are quite vicious and violent. By comparison, bonobos societies are less violent and much more peaceful. And that is because the female bonobos rub their clitorises together as a form of solidarity and friendship. And it is essentially it's allowed them to collaborate and make ensure they check male power in bonobo societies and at times overthrow the patriarchy. But because they rub their clitorises together and form these friendships, they have a society that is built on and prioritizes social cohesion and collaboration. And so powerful is social cohesion and collaboration and clitoral rubbing to this species that the female bonobos have now evolved giant clitorises. It is like their clitoris is like now an emblem for how solidarity is powerful and beneficial to the species. I use that as an example to of how there are so many stories of nature that we actually haven't captured. We tend to lead towards, okay, let's let's talk about wolves and lions and showcase just what the the males of that species do. And then we equate that with this leadership and how if you want to be a successful leader, you need to be dominant and aggressive. But no, um, if you want to be a successful leader, you should be focusing on collaboration. You know, you don't have to do it exactly like the bonobo. You can interpret that however you will. Um, or you can focus on whales who pass down the matriarchs, pass down knowledge. And it is this knowledge transfer transfer that is incredibly important to a species and to leadership potential. You can focus on lionesses who are tasked with hunting and gathering. You can focus on a myriad of species that demonstrate to us that it isn't just dominance and aggression that makes a good leader. There are so many other skills and traits and behaviors that are modeled across the animal kingdom that men and women can lead from. And because it is, it's harmful for men and women. We don't want little boys growing up thinking the only the only chance they have of being a leader is if they're aggressive. And we don't want women thinking that they're genetically not aggressive and they can't be a leader. But looking at the natural world and the species in it, it's a really beautiful way to get examples of how the different ways that leadership manifests.
SPEAKER_00:You could be a naming consultant to professional women's teams around the world to ensure that they're selecting the right uh mascot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. How do we how do we get that happening? Because I have a lot of suggestions.
SPEAKER_00:Having followed you on LinkedIn for a long, long time, one of the things I've admired is your contrarian views and the commitment to saying what you think. What kind of content do you find to be most impactful for raising awareness and driving action on climate and nature issues within an ostensibly business-focused platform?
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I'm I'm always experimenting. I don't always get it right. And I one thing that's always been important to me and will continue to be important to me is that I um I am values-led. Um I I write things with a view of what sort of impact is this going to have? Is this going to start a conversation that could lead to, you know, some sort of positive impact? Could this support some sort of systems change? Can this help me learn or help others learn? Whatever I post, there is a view that or a hope that it will have a positive impact. But it is an experiment. Um I sometimes, you know, I sometimes it will be post darker things or, you know, it's it's very easy to find depressing topics in the environmental sector, as you know. And so sometimes it's I feel like it's really important to showcase some of the devastation or showcase some really terrible decisions that potentially companies or governments or individuals have made. What I've found and what I'm experimenting with at the moment, particularly through the book, is that it's a it's a combination. We need joy and we need inspiration and we need examples to look towards, but we also can't shy away from the realities and tragedies of the world. And I think through all of that, we need stories. People need to have a visual in their head and something that is memorable. And so that's why in this book I use stories that I think are memorable. I don't think many people are going to forget about the bonobos clitoris, you know. It might have been a weird strategy, but basically, if I can use the bonobos clitoris as a hook to get people thinking about gender bias, biases in how we understand nature, the importance of nature, then I'm fine with that. So I'm constantly looking for unique hooks to get people interested or reading about nature and trying to do a bit of a balancing act of how do I maintain a sense of hope among people who I know at the moment are feeling pretty down about the scale and scope of the environmental crisis. So, how do I maintain hope and show them that there's still so much to fight for while also making clear that this is a very real crisis and we need more people helping? And so it's always trying to juggle those two things.
SPEAKER_00:And combining the work that you've done on the book with the work that you do as a board director for organizations like the Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife and Care Australia, from those perspectives, where can Australian businesses create this positive environmental and social impact between now and 2030?
SPEAKER_02:At their core, they needed to be keeping more things alive. You know, that's just keep things alive more. I think we have a little bit of a problem in corporate Australia and in our policy settings at the moment, where we have a hyper focus on setting targets and a hyper focus on reporting our current state of the environment or companies, you know, reporting on the constantly looking at how they're reporting on their climate impacts and things like that. Those things are great, they're important, but we've we've been doing that for quite a long time now, and it's not leading to actually action of reducing impacts on nature and climate. Um, yes, we need targets, we need transparency, we need reporting. All of those things are great, but they're less great if you're not acting on them. So for businesses, I think there's a bit of a decline in donations to nature charities. I think all organizations they should be donating to nature organizations. They are dependent on nature. They have to extract from nature to maintain their businesses. They should be giving back. They should be paying their way. If they're extracting from nature, they should be paying for conservation, reforestation, native species habitat projects. They should be switching to renewable energy across their operations and supply chain. They should be working with their supply chain to, you know, remove things like native forest deforestation as a first pass. Um, they should be investing in energy efficiency and circular economy solutions in manufacturing. Um, but they also should be doing the real basic things. Like, why, when I go to Coles and Woolworths, are my cucumbers and bananas wrapped in plastic? Why? These these things where, you know, just as a consumer, you walk in and think that this is nonsensical. We do not need bananas wrapped in plastic. So can we address the really, you know, no pun intended low-hanging fruit here while also working with our in our operations and supply chain to really shift towards nature's regeneration. Another thing organizations should and could be doing is collaborating with NGOs and research institutions for more scalable environmental solutions. In my opinion, they should have youth advisors. My charity had an eight-year-old boy on our board of advisors. Organizations should, at the very least, have a board director that is a scientist or an environmentalist. This is the greatest crisis that humanity has ever dealt with. An organization that doesn't have a scientist or environmentalist on its board is it's it's a risk. It is a really big risk to business. Um, another thing organizations can do is to lobby for the environment. We're seeing a lot of industry lobbying against the environment. They need to be lobbying for the environment. Um so, yeah, there are quite quite a lot of things to do. And at the moment, my fear is that we might be over-engineering and over-complicating things with heavy reliance on things like target setting and reporting and less emphasis on listening to scientists, investing in real solutions and actually implementing some of these nature-positive activities.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. So as we're drawing to um a close of the um episode, and before we get into the rapid fire section, just wanted to ask you one final question. And it's kind of drawing back on this idea on the absurdity of being on the fence about maintaining the environmental conditions necessary for our own survival. Is there one single message that you would want to leave our audience um to give them a sense of radical hope, but also to inspire them to act with urgency and conviction?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, that is part of my message, I would say. We are the only species that argues over whether we should maintain the environmental conditions necessary for our own survival. Your fate and the fate of your children are tied to the fate of nature. So if that isn't reason enough to advocate for nature, then I don't know what is. But to the people who really care and are really trying, I would say that there is an amazing network of people doing the most extraordinary things to protect the environment. There are the people that I interview, there are people who are dangling themselves upside down inside stormwater drains to rescue tiny little lorikeets on Christmas Eve. There is a 12-year-old girl who is a forest defender and she walks adults through the forest and teaches them how to protect it. There are people that are needing sweaters for penguins. There are people volunteering at your local park to plant trees. There um are people lobbying government every day to protect nature? There are millions of us, so many people that are that just truly give a shit. Um, and I think maybe we just need to find each other.
SPEAKER_00:Unreal. All right. Uh the final four questions uh that we ask all of our guests. Natalie, what is a thought-provoking book, podcast, movie, article, or song that you would like to share with our listener?
SPEAKER_02:Um, do you know what? I've heard Nature's Last Dance, Natalie Kiriacu, is really good. No.
SPEAKER_00:That is a perfectly timed plug.
SPEAKER_02:No, um, Monga Bay Podcast, I really like Monga Bay podcast. They cover environmental stories, the global environmental stories that we just don't see in mainstream media, and they are a combination of stories of hope and tragedy and rigorous reporting. And so I'm a big fan of Monga Bay.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Um Natalie, uh if we give you the Greenfix magic wand, what is there one change you'd like to see in the world before 2035?
SPEAKER_02:That we completely rewire the economy and our political system so that they disincentivize harm to nature and communities.
SPEAKER_00:Concise and absolutely on the money. And then as we uh as finish up, what is one piece of positive climate news that you would like to share with our listener?
SPEAKER_02:Well, recently the New South Wales government um just created one of the largest national parks in the state to protect the koala and you know, many other species. For years and years, uh NGOs and community groups and activists had been lobbying and battling to protect koalas. And so we now have, I think it's 476,000 hectares of national park protected for koalas and an immediate ban on logging there. And they've also given a comprehensive assistance package for workers and businesses. So that's a that's a really significant win for environmentalists and for for businesses. They rely on nature, of course. That's a bit of good news.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic news. And last question is who is an inspiring thought leader that you think that we should have as a guest on the Greenfix?
SPEAKER_02:It's it's really hard to pick one. But Clancy Lester, um his Instagram is called Bees and Blossoms, and he's a he's a bug guy. And he's talking about he's focused on an issue that just very few people focus on that is of the highest importance, and I think he is um bringing a lot of charisma, joy, impact, and education to to this topic, to an environmental topic that we all need to learn more about, but we probably haven't prioritized, or we definitely haven't prioritized nearly enough. So I would go with Clancy. Fabulous.
SPEAKER_01:This has been such a wonderful conversation. Um, probably one of the most fun ones we've had. I just wanted to thank you, Natalie, first of all, for writing the book. It's such a wonderful and inspiring read, and we highly recommend everyone to go get a copy, read it. We will put lots of links on how you can get the book. Again, thank you for joining us. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This was GreenFix with your hosts Loretta Batias and Dan Levrington. We hope you enjoyed the episode. You can send us your questions or tell us who you'd like us to interview next at info at greenfixpodcast.com. You can get your GreenFix every two weeks on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, and Pocketcast.
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