Authenticity Over Algorithms: Parmees Yazdanyar on Uncovering a Brand and Identity That Resonates

This is the first ever interview guest for the Sink and Swim podcast and I am over the moon to interview the woman, the myth, the legend, and Luminaire muse behind this podcast: Parmees Yazdanyar, 

Parmees is not only a branding and messaging mastermind and genius in her company, NeuroBranding Academy, but she also fully walks her talk 

In this episode, she brings so much deep Sink AND Swim perspective to topics such as:

07:22  The Paradox of Authenticity, Giftedness, and Success

12:11    Coming home to yourself as an intellectual, multidimensional, talented and neurospicy woman by finding "your people"

19:41   The dark side and brilliance that comes from fully owning your genius

23:30 Myths and unexpected lessons in becoming a 7 figure business owner before age 30

36:00 The rebellion of choosing integrity and the long game over what's fast and easy

40:34 Redefining Wealth and Success: beyond income & external achievement

46:32 The lost art of craftsmanship in entrepreneurship

51:02 Letting go & trusting amidst long distance relationships & navigating complex immigration processes & trauma

01:12:16 Emerging from Hibernation: New Beginnings

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Transcript

Julie Granger (00:00)
Y'all, this is our very, very first ever interview guest for the Sink and Swim podcast and I am over the moon to tell you about this episode. I interviewed the woman, the myth, the legend and the muse behind this podcast. I was inspired to start this podcast from hours and days of deep, nerdy...

soul sister conversations that I'd have with this person behind the scenes when we would get to the end of a conversation and say, man, we really should have recorded that because we ourselves need to go back and listen to ourselves because there's so many gems and so many lessons we learned from each other. And it's the type of thing you'd want to binge listen to over and over again. And finally, I decided that, you know what? I'm going to do a podcast and have those types of conversations with people.

And of course, this person got to become the very first person that I interviewed on the podcast. And I'm so excited to introduce to you Parmees Yazdanyar, who is not only a branding and messaging genius, but she brings so much perspective to what it truly means to be authentic, what it truly means to live in integrity, what it truly means to...

self-express in a way that owns your genius.

She brings a beautiful perspective to the unexpected lessons of reaching the seven figure level in her business, which I can completely relate to. She also brings a really interesting and beautiful perspective and story about navigating life's uncertainties, particularly for her having to live apart from her fiance, the love of her life, and being denied the ability to be able to just literally

be in person with him on a regular day-to-day basis. And with sharing that story, she brings such a beautiful perspective to the art of non-attachment, the art of surrender, and the strength that's found in embracing uncertainty and growth. So join us for this episode. I can't wait for you to dig in. And it is with no further ado that I introduce Parmees Yazdanyar.

Julie Granger (02:13)
All right, welcome to our very first ever podcast guest on the Sink and Swim podcast. I am absolutely over the moon to introduce you to the incomparable, absolute brilliant mastermind, the most ethically persuasive, powerful and brilliant person that I know. And to most people, she's so powerful, she only needs a first name.

In fact, I don't know that I've ever called you to your face, your whole name. So our very first Sink and Swim podcast guest is Parmees Yazdanyar. So welcome, thank you for being here.

Parmees (02:38)
I don't think a lot of people have.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me. I feel like out of all of the conversations that we've had, this is like the first one where we actually planned it. And oftentimes Julie and I will go back and forth and we're like, this should have been recorded. So I'm happy that we're actually getting to record this now.

Julie Granger (03:03)
I know, I know.

actually the inspiration for this podcast was from a non-recorded conversation we had where we both were like, God, we'd be so good at this in a podcast. People need to hear what we're saying. So here we are several months later. So let's just get this thing started.

Parmees (03:16)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Julie Granger (03:24)
Amazing. Well, tell us a little bit about who you are, what you want the world to know about you.

Parmees (03:29)
spiel. So all right, well, my name is Parmise. I am a very multifaceted person. I'm like, there's many directions I can take this, but if I were to keep it short and sweet, professionally, or should I say by trade, I'm a messaging and positioning strategist that works exclusively with personal brands who have a message that they want to share with the world or have what I like to call intuitive genius that they would like to make tangible and bring into

their space, whether it's to disrupt a paradigm in their field or be known for something that is, you know, monumentally different than how things have been done in the world. And I work with a lot of what Julie would call luminaries, a lot of really brilliant people who have been outcasts perhaps for the majority of their life. People who have very different insights, very different perspectives, people who have a unique story.

And they want to be able to bring this out into the world and share it because they realize that there's more people that could benefit from what it is that they do. And they want to know how to position, package, and get people on board with their ideas. How do we actually take all of the unique insights and stories and brilliant innovations that you've brought to life and package it in a way that it can actually reach the right people? And so I've been in this space for...

a decade now. This year is going to be 10 years of business. And I've obviously evolved in the way that I told my clients throughout the years. But yeah, it's been 10 years of doing this in some capacity. And yeah, I feel like there's many lessons, many things, insights that I've been able to ponder up just from my own journey as an entrepreneur and as a human that is evolving and working with other humans and

Julie Granger (04:55)
Gosh.

Parmees (05:15)
I often say that even though the front-facing title that I hold is a strategist and kind of more into the business side of things, but truly the magic that happens, it's supporting the human behind the business, not just what they're on social media or on their websites or in their offers. Like it has very little to do with the app, the portrayal of who they are. And it's so much more about who they are behind the scenes and how they are doing the human management side of things, how they are managing their own fears,

Julie Granger (05:27)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (05:44)
cracking through their own ceilings of certain limiting beliefs that will come up for them or how they want to be viewed. it's it's has so much more to do. I always say personal branding is truly personal mastery. And if you want to pull up a personal brand that is like, you know, the breakthrough brand that people look up to, it really starts with you and going within.

Julie Granger (06:05)
Well, that's amazing. And a couple of things you said that I'm just like, well, yep, yep, yep, yes. The first one being you're some type of luminary. You're just very talented, gifted, intelligent, or some type of deep, profound thing, gift that you have. And as that type of person, can tell you firsthand, it's very difficult to, one,

want to show up in the world because you've been the smart outcast your whole life and been told you're too much, too smart, too pretty, too talented, whatever, all the "too's". I call them the "terrible too's" And or, there's so much nuance and so much depth to what your magic is that it can feel like this whole getting it out of your gut and your soul and through your mouth and through your fingers to type.

is like word jumble, I'm all over the place because everything to you feels so important. Like I am this person, like everything feels important. need like, my God, there's so much to say. I don't even know where to start. So it's brilliant that you know that it's not just about the words and the things that we say to people. It's actually about the personal mastery of.

All of the jumble, all of the insecurity about my genius and talent and smarts, all of the clarity on what is, while it is all important, what's actually most important to say. And without having to shape shift or change yourself so that other people will listen and look at you and pay attention, it's like,

actually fully being yourself through your actions, through your words, through whatever, your presence, and allowing that to attract in the same people, the same luminary type people, yeah.

Parmees (07:58)
Precisely.

Yes. Yes.

I always say that that's actually the hardest part. And it's so ironic because we think that, you know, getting the strategy right and understanding what we call ourselves and what our business stands for and the words that will pull people in. Like we're trying to always figure out what's the strategy. How do I do that? But the hardest part is actually just accepting yourself and liking yourself. I wrote a piece yesterday that was talking about how people won't trust you until you trust yourself. And there's almost like this, this energetic

wave that comes through your brand that people can sense, they can feel. And I've always said that the energy behind your words matter more than the words themselves. But it's so true where if you want to be that person that is the go-to or the person who people feel naturally attracted to, it has very little to do with how you've positioned yourself and it's how safe you feel within yourself and allowing yourself to accept the multifacetedness and all of what is.

And the more you can do that, the more comfort you can create within, the more comfortable other people will feel in your presence. And that allure, that magnetism that you're looking for, or that code you're trying to crack as to how do I get people to see my value, that only happens when you see your own value.

Julie Granger (09:12)
well, OK. We've talked about this many times in that that's the work I do is helping people feel so safe and secure in who am I, what's my purpose, who are my people. And I'm like the precursor to you. even though the work you do actually helps people do that a lot, too. And it's like

If you don't have that piece, I learned this as being a marketing messaging mentor type person too, it doesn't matter. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me, how do I say blank? And I'm like, how do you actually feel about that?

What is keeping you from feeling confident about how to say it? Because if you felt really, really trusting in yourself of this thing, whatever it is you're wanting to share with the world, You don't need a framework or a certain way to structure a sentence or a paragraph. You just say it.

Parmees (10:09)
Yeah, and there's no filter, right? There's no filter that you feel like you need to pass it through to make sure that it's crafted in a way that lands. And the paradox here, and I know you would resonate with this because you're also brilliant at messaging and you could support your people with the messaging aspect of it. We always say that we wanna make sure that the message lands, that it resonates, that it's relevant, it's specific, it's tangible. And we don't wanna just take all of the...

Julie Granger (10:10)
It just comes out.

Parmees (10:37)
abstract thoughts and put it into a post or put it into a piece and put it out there. However, there's a difference between refining what you're saying to make sure that the person on the other end actually understands what you're trying to convey and feeling like you need to run it through a filter so that it is positioned as authoritative. Those are two very different things.

you can clarify your message and you can make it a lot more tangible, a lot more direct. You can use a lot more vivid imagery so that you make sure the other person can grasp the actual core of what is being said. But that is very different than you feeling like I need to have a perfect framework to put this in. Otherwise people will not get me or otherwise this will not work or otherwise I will be misinterpreted. So there's like an internal filter and like an external filter.

Julie Granger (11:26)
Well, what's interesting is like, I'm hearing this broader than just like how I tell people about my genius or my magic or the work I do or whatever, whatever it is, who I am, is it's like in middle school, we were taught the right way to dress and do your hair. And that's not just middle school. That's, you open up Instagram and the influencers are telling you how to do your makeup and all the things. And...

What's actually happening is you're being taught and conditioned, this is the filter you need to run yourself through in order to be seen, heard, validated, understood, held by society, by women, by men, especially by women, and by people in general. And I think that we all as human nature just bring that into our businesses of, what's the right way? How am I supposed to do this? How am I supposed to sound?

My favorite question people ask me is, how do I sound authentic?

Parmees (12:26)
Yes. Yeah.

Julie Granger (12:30)
And I'm

like, well, I cannot answer that question for you

Parmees (12:35)
you did answer that question, it would be taking away the authenticity. And I think that's the paradox of authenticity is that the more you try to be authentic, the less authentic you actually are.

Julie Granger (12:43)
Yeah, it's like the very act of grasping for the feather creates the wind that pushes it away. I think that's a Tosha Silver quote. So good. OK, well, speaking of all of this, so I met you for the people listening. We met actually in this context of I was working on my branding and messaging and all of that types of things in a certain previous era of my business.

Parmees (12:50)
Love that.

Julie Granger (13:06)
When I hooked up with Parmees from a mentee mentor perspective, I was like, you're my people. There was just this level of nerd, but unapologetically owning it that I was like, tell me more. And just the nerd out over

Parmees (13:18)
Mm.

Yeah.

Julie Granger (13:28)
messaging being more than a certain marketing framework you need to follow and all of that was exactly what I needed, especially because I had been taught so many marketing frameworks and it was actually creating a filter for me. It's like a good jumping off point, but then

just the rule follower in me was like, OK, well, I got to follow it and keep this. And it was just diluting down me.

I really wanted to bring you onto the podcast because of one, that idea of filtering and

trying to fit yourself into a container that's too small for you. I call it the conformity corset. And it's just so constraining, especially for brilliant light luminary type people. We live in a world that tells you this is how to dress, be how to eat, this how much protein to eat, how much weight you need to lift. And before you know it, we all look the same, talk the same, act the same, and there's no authenticity whatsoever. And then the other reason is what we.

you already mentioned a little bit and I mentioned a little bit is the paradox of giftedness also, the paradox of success and the dark sides of success that for very luminary, traditionally successful, especially women, the dark sides that aren't maybe talked about that much because it's not cool to talk about them. So we're going to talk about.

Parmees (14:43)
Yeah, yeah,

we're gonna talk about them. Yeah, and I just wanna add something real quick too. Going back to how Julie and I met and kind of feeling like there's like this kindred spirit type of connection, nerd wizardry type of connection between us. The majority of my life growing up and like going through school or having peers and all of that, I've always felt like there's something different, not better, but different.

Julie Granger (14:57)
Yeah

Parmees (15:09)
about the way I see the world, about the way I process information, about the way that I connect with people, the depth of thinking that happens. And this isn't to say that there's any superiority complex. That wasn't the case. It was just a different lens of looking at things. And for a very long time, like I mentioned in the beginning, I felt like I was quite a bit of an outcast when it came to just being accepted in social circles or wanting things differently than other people. And

Even like going down the path of entrepreneurship, that was always very like different than what was accepted within my peer group or within my family. it wasn't the safe route. wasn't the normal route. It was, you know, wasn't what was going to assure me a safe and successful future. And so one of the things that I had to almost spend, you know, the better part of the last 10 years deconditioning from.

Julie Granger (15:49)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (16:03)
was this notion that I need to follow some sort of corset, like you said, or need to be put into this conformity corset so that I can be liked and accepted and approved of by others. And it wasn't until maybe three or five years ago that I came across more people like Julie, that I started to finally feel like, Oh there isn't something wrong with me. And as a matter of fact,

the very things that I've always been critiqued on for being different, weird, too in depth and not being able to put in, be able to be put into a box, meaning I can be both highly intellectual, highly into other extracurricular things. sometimes those things didn't really fit into the nerd box or the super outgoing box. And so coming across someone like Julie, it was a very validating experience because I realized, okay, I'm not alone.

Julie Granger (16:52)
Right.

Parmees (16:59)
There's also other people out there that can have these types of conversations with me and won't call me a nerd, or can actually see the world through the lens that I'm seeing things. And it was through that permission granting process that it really enabled me to actually become a lot more convicted in who I am, because I realized that there is a community of people out there that share the same traits. And we're not all the same. We all have very different like personalities, looks, like everything about us is very diverse.

But just understanding that this archetype is out there was a very big like, ahh yes, I can feel that in my body. And it was like a coming home to myself. So sometimes, again, and it's not that I wasn't confident before then, I was a confident person before, but it was almost like a deeper level of embodiment of like, okay, like this is, this is a thing. There's other people out there that are like this and it's okay.

Julie Granger (17:40)
Yeah.

Well, OK, I mean, first of all, yes. And same, same exact experience for me. can't, I think part of feeling fully trusting and safe with who you are and what you are, like what makes up you, your story, especially with that type of background and history.

is yes, you need to be completely intrinsically trusting of yourself. That is the baseline. That is the root that is required. And as someone who also lives in that not a superiority complex but tends to outshine people, tends to rise to the top, I'm not going to say easily, but it just happens. It just happens almost every time.

someone who is intense, someone who, I mean, I literally love art and music and food and dogs and being muddy, but also dressing up. I don't fit a box. You don't fit a box whatsoever. That type of person, I think, yes, you can feel perfectly safe with yourself. And at some point, you start to learn the power of independence. that's actually where we probably do our best work is alone.

with nobody giving any input whatsoever. Yes, we seek input from mentors and people, but it's very much, I am most powerful alone. That's a gift, but it also became a coping mechanism when we were outcast and bullied I don't know about you, but I learned early on, I don't need anyone. I've got this. I don't belong in group projects. I do better on my own. And that's great. I produced great work.

Parmees (19:29)
100 %

Julie Granger (19:32)
But you can't actually feel fully, fully valid and worthy and like you belong somewhere unless you also add in external validation. And that's something that I'm really learning because a long time, I mean, I'm 41. For 41 years, I've been taught, oh, internal validation is what you need. If you seek external validation, you're powerless. But I think that the piece of when you see your people,

Parmees (19:56)
Thank you.

Julie Granger (20:02)
Even if you've achieved great things and done great things and done all those things independently with your own inner trust, it brings this up leveling of, well, now I can fully relax. I'm safe. Like, I found my people, even if they aren't my family or my traditional friend group or professional colleagues. And it brings that last little piece of like, it's safe to fully unveil and be myself.

Parmees (20:13)
Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. And I think what you said that is key there is that you're no longer using the external validation as fuel, meaning your cup is full but it helps you just get that extra edge because you're like, okay, I do belong. And I think especially as women, we are very tribal communal beings. And when we're brought up in the way that we have been, we oftentimes have to like almost disconnect from that side of ourselves and just...

Julie Granger (20:39)
Hmm.

Parmees (20:58)
accept the solitude and isolation as our fate and because we thrive in that environment we think that that is it but it's not that we don't need other people we do but it's it's more of an interdependence rather than like a complete dependence or complete independence because I am self-validated and so are you meaning if someone doesn't approve of you it's not like it's going to throw you you know to the side you feel you feel good about yourself regardless

Julie Granger (21:12)
Yeah.

Parmees (21:23)
you can validate yourself in that, but it also helps to have somebody else to show you that you're not alone and mirror the same traits back to you.

Julie Granger (21:32)
Yes. We need people. We need our people. I actually want to point out what you said, because I repeated it on purpose to make a point, which is the qualification of this is not a superiority complex. That right there is actually a complete example of what we've been taught about ourselves that is not OK.

Parmees (21:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Julie Granger (21:54)
We've been taught it's not OK to simply own your genius, to simply say, hey, I'm really good at this, to say, actually, I'm better at most people than this thing, to say, I don't fit into normal, circles or groups or anything like that. We've been taught to qualify it with, oh, I don't want to sound braggy, or I promise you this isn't a

complex, or I don't want to sound like a narcissist. And it's not. And I think that it's important to have these conversations and encourage our people, whoever you are out there, if you're listening to say, hey, you know what? It's OK to just be like, hey, actually, I woke up like this. This is my factory setting. I'm not trying too hard.

Parmees (22:16)
Yes.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And I think that that's, so important also just to realize that owning your genius goes full circle back to what we said in the beginning around like fully trusting yourself and wanting to be seen for who you are. And I know from personal experience and you know this also from my experience of not owning your genius will always keep you in the shadow of others because you're not willing to step up and say, actually, I'm brilliant at what I do.

But instead, it's almost like this false humility that we've had to put up front to protect ourselves from the potential judgments of other people thinking, they're so full of themselves. So owning my genius has probably been the one thing that has helped me break through any sort of plateau or any sort of blockage to actually getting to where I want to be and creating the life and business that is most fulfilling.

Julie Granger (23:19)
You know, there's such a difference between actual arrogance, narcissism, bragginess, superiority complexes, and the actual humility of saying, yes, I am the best at that. I'm almost always the best at the things that I do. It's just a fact. That's actually humble. It's not coming from this place of trying to posture or compensate for an actual

insecurity or inferiority complex. It's very, very different. And I think that most people know, whether it's a felt sense or a thought, are aware of the difference between those two things. But I don't know about you, but I've been accused of being arrogant and braggy in my life when I just talk about something. And so

Parmees (23:48)
Thanks.

Julie Granger (24:12)
We were very early taught to just, you don't want other people to feel bad about themselves. And it plays on our also very natural, empathetic, and compassionate side to be like, you're right, I don't. So I'm just going to qualify it and make sure everybody knows that I'm actually just going to tiptoe around this strength of mine. But I think that, especially in today's world, we need more people saying, actually, I'm the person for you. I'm really good at this.

Parmees (24:40)
Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (24:41)
Just owning it with safety and trust.

Parmees (24:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's the paradox in this as well, because, you know, we oftentimes will look at people who actually are arrogant and it's being fueled by an inferiority complex and we can sense it. You feel the energy of, look at me, look at my accomplishments, look at my brilliance, and it doesn't land with us. And especially, would say, for people who have a heightened sense of discernment or who are a little bit more sensitive to things, like we can pick that up.

I know it sounds cool, but like you can sense when someone is coming from this energy of arrogance and looking down on others. Whereas I don't think we're coming from the energy of looking down on others. We're just simply saying, I know I'm really good at this. I know that I have put in the work, the dedication, I have a gift and I'm owning that gift rather than falsely trying to minimize the gift and being like, I'm trying to not bother people with my...

Julie Granger (25:12)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (25:37)
with my strengths and my genius, that itself is not being authentic to the real you. So, yeah.

Julie Granger (25:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, one thing that is really awesome about you that I want to highlight for you is you're not even 30 yet. And you already have, you said you're in your 10th year of business. You've already reached the seven figure mark in your business. Awesome. Not that that makes you who you are. There's so much, who you are is what led to that. That's not what makes you who you are.

Parmees (26:02)
Mm-hmm. Great. Thank you.

We should.

Julie Granger (26:12)
Just want the world to make sure we're clear on that. But tell me about, with that level of what we would call traditional success, especially doing it authentically and really not chasing the money, but actually chasing what is true and right for you and sharing your genius with the world, how do you balance that? what any, like have you run into any type of roadblocks or things that have really kind of like

Parmees (26:23)
Thanks.

Julie Granger (26:36)
tested that for you.

Parmees (26:39)
Yeah, oh my gosh, I could write a whole book on this probably. Well, firstly, I think the premise behind what I'm going to say is also to just for everyone to know, I accidentally realized that I crossed the seven-figure mark, meaning it wasn't even something that I was looking forward to. It wasn't a goal that I had set. It wasn't like an intentional thing where I'm like, okay, let's say by the end of 2024, I will

Julie Granger (26:54)
Same.

Parmees (27:07)
pass the million dollar mark. It wasn't like that at all. As a matter of fact, I was crunching numbers because of administrative things. And I just, after doing calculations, I realized, I just passed a million dollars in cash collected. And I'm like, wow, that's cool. Moving on. Yeah, wow. Look at that. So, and I think that's a very important thing to highlight because

Julie Granger (27:23)
Who knew?

Yeah.

Parmees (27:32)
especially in the world of business and just even in the way that success is viewed, we pedestalize money, status, popularity, fame, views, like all of that stuff, almost as like the benchmark metrics for our worth or for our like, whether we've made it or not. And I always tell people, and I've said this even before I was making any real money in my business, I would be doing what I do for free because it brings me to life.

And I think that is the reason why I was able to cross that seven figure mark without feeling like I needed to push for it. Because I also have some of my own peers or friends or people I've seen in the industry that set a goal, like set a financial goals of let's say a million dollars. And then they just put blood, sweat and tears chasing after that goal. And the interesting thing is that they're often the ones who will hit obstacle after obstacle, failure after failure.

And it's not because they're doing anything wrong, but I genuinely believe it's because when we put a goal on a pedestal and we make it mean something about ourselves, we're no longer operating from this place of service and operating from this place of following our intuitive nudges or respecting our creative cycles. Instead, we're doing it to chase an extrinsic goal so that we can feel worthy of ourselves.

Julie Granger (28:46)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (28:51)
is kind of like in a relationship where someone is really just kind of treating you like crap, but you're chasing after their validation and you really want to make it work. That actually has nothing to do with that person. It has everything to do with how you want to feel as that person gives you that validation and approval. You want to prove to yourself that you're worthy. You want to prove to yourself that you're worthy of being chosen. And that's kind of the same mentality that I see when we're chasing that external goal or when we put it on a pedestal or we make it mean something about ourselves.

And so, yeah, feel like you have a thought.

Julie Granger (29:21)
Well, yeah. Well, it's

It's like what we were just talking about is sort of there's the artificial inflated perspective of myself. And then there's the true genius. This is where I thrive and shine. If you're starting from this artificial inflated

that's what will make me feel whole and worthy, then when you get there, assuming you get there, which you may not, or you'll need all kinds of...

greasy, gross ways of getting there, you're not going to actually feel confident because you're going to need to raise the bar to the next level and the next level to feel worthy and worthy and worthy. This is not a new tale. We've all heard this story. So I think that there's this piece of, again, rooting into who you are and having internal safety with that and then having extrinsic safety with that.

Parmees (29:59)
Exactly. Exactly.

Julie Granger (30:13)
and then rooting into what's my purpose and having internal safety with that. And then extrinsic, finding your people who absolutely are there to like fricking lift you up and cheer you on and pick you up when you fall over. I think is really the key because it is too easy to get distracted.

You know, and worth is not actually defined by money. As two people who have reached that goal, that seven figure mark,

Parmees (30:33)
Yeah, and I think, yes, yes.

I think what's so important about this also is just to like really, really clarify this for people. Cause I think people who haven't reached, let's say a certain level in business yet will often pedestalize it because we envision a future where our lives are so much better once that goal has been attained or once that amount of money has been created. And I think both yours and I, story around like not even realizing that we're there is such a great indicator of how

It doesn't change what you do in your day to day. It doesn't change who you are. It doesn't change your level of fulfillment in any way. And I've always said that whether I'm making a million dollars a year or $15 million a year or $200,000 a year, my day to day still stays the same. I'm still going to be doing the same things. I'm still going to be here having this conversation with you. I'm still going to be speaking with my clients and having really deep, passionate conversations around their ideas and their genius.

I'm still good, like my day to day remains the same. And I think that's really important to highlight for people because we think that once we have the money, all of a sudden we're gonna have greater levels of freedom and we're gonna have all of these things that make our lives better when the reality is if you can craft your life around actually chasing that passion and pouring your work and your effort into something that you're good at and

like intentionally creating days or intentionally creating time in your life that you enjoy, that happens almost as a byproduct. And I always tell people that it's a byproduct. It's you being so immersed in your genius and being so in love with the process of doing what you do. I love publishing content. I love creating a new workshop or masterclass for my clients and delivering a training.

Julie Granger (32:10)
Hmm.

Parmees (32:26)
I did a two and a half hour writing workshop inside my group yesterday and I loved it. It was challenging. was, it was able to like, I was serving people and I love being hands-on in there, but it's because of that level of dedication that I have to my own craft and mastering my craft and refining it, going deeper and deeper into it that the business has grown as well because people feel that passion. They feel the genuineness. They feel the non-transactional nature of how I operate. And because of that,

I'm able to grow steadily. And because of that, we were able to cross seven figures, not even realizing, we did that? Cool.

Julie Granger (33:01)
you know, I think that the non transactional nature is a really important piece to hit home. We're humans. We're all inextricably connected through the stories of who we are and what our purpose is. And when you can just live the story versus tell the story

There's a difference between show and tell. if you just show it, if you just are it versus you tell people. That's also the difference between I just am this versus I am pretending to be this. I'm a child dressed up in a costume trying to be this and come across this way. And I think that for both of us, one thing has been, probably a big thing too, we've encountered people, whether we've worked for them or worked with them.

they ain't it, you know? But they're pretending to be it. So I'm curious about your experience with working for other brands or working for people and how that has shaped almost like a doubling down on no, actually this is how I'm gonna be present with myself and with my business and with my clients.

Parmees (33:46)
Yeah.

Mm.

my gosh. has had probably the biggest influence on how I am. And I, you know, as you know, for the majority of the first, I would say five or six years of my business, I was not a personal brand. wasn't like the front-facing. I was always the support behind the scenes. And I've worked with companies that were...

Julie Granger (34:17)
Right.

Parmees (34:21)
you know, making above well over seven figures, eight figures. And it was always so interesting watching the inner operations of what happens versus the external portrayal of what their values are and what they stand for. And I have watched a multitude of companies dismantle themselves and none of it had to do with changes in the economy. None of it had to do with their marketing, their sales, their systems, none of it.

It all had to do with the person being in charge, not being willing to face themselves and operating from a wounded state or putting pedestal, cutting corners, cutting services, cutting value. And it really allowed me to see that operating in integrity and not chasing this external image of, you I am the guru, I am the this, I am the that like the less we pedestalize ourselves and the more we put our

Julie Granger (34:58)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (35:18)
and our people at the center of what we do, that is the thing that actually leads us to success, even if it takes longer. And I think that's the thing a lot of people get caught up on is that, yeah, but this is the long way. It's easy to use sales tactics. It's easy to use, to be very transactional. And yes, it's easy, but it's also not lasting. Meaning anything that comes easy is also gonna go just as easy or even easier.

Julie Granger (35:43)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (35:44)
So it's like

Julie Granger (35:45)
Yeah.

Parmees (35:45)
building the connections, building the relationships, doing things from a place of integrity was like so ingrained in me because I saw what happens behind the scenes when someone is not operating from that place of integrity.

Julie Granger (35:56)
Amazing. mean, and it takes a lot of courage to say, you know what? No, this isn't the way that I want to operate. So I'm either going to leave or do it my way until you kick me out or whatever it is. And I'm even thinking of my own experience in my own business where I reached the seven figure mark two, three years in a row. And the people that I

brought in to support me, as it turns out, going back to our original conversation, they weren't necessarily my people. They had ideas that were really brilliant, and they had methodologies and ways of operating that were smart for a streamlined transactional service-based business that looks at clients as a number, as a fuel source for money.

Parmees (36:33)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Julie Granger (36:55)
And it just felt, even though it was all women supporting me, it felt very transactional to me. It felt very masculine. felt very, this is how you're supposed to do it. We aren't supposed to leave money on the table. You have to follow all these frameworks and have all these SOPs. And I was like, this is not a corporation. And what was interesting in being the leader of my own business, I was pushing back against my own people so hard.

that it was a wake up call for me to say, you know what, actually, the way that I've built this was very rooted in integrity. But as soon as I brought in people, because I had the belief that I need all these people to support me so that I don't burn out, as soon as anyone else came in who wasn't rooted in the same authentic integrity that I was, it started to make it really, really difficult to where I felt like I was.

honestly not heard, seen, and valued in my own business. And I was constantly fighting that battle and trying to defend and justify the decisions I was making for myself and my business. So my decision was, instead of like, I'm leaving someone else's company or anything like that, was I'm going to break this whole thing back down to the studs and rebuild it in a way that

is exactly authentic in how I want to live, work, lead, serve. And if that means I go from making seven figures to four, five for a while, fine. That's the long game. I'm fortunate that I'm able to do that. I think I want to highlight that I recognize that's a privilege. But

Parmees (38:27)
Yeah.

Julie Granger (38:35)
Even if it wasn't, if I wasn't able to do it, I would go get a part-time job. I would do whatever I needed to do to support myself so that this vision can stay sound.

Parmees (38:43)
Absolutely. I always say that the ultimate marker of wealth is how free you feel in your day to day to choose what it is that you want to do and to show up and be able to do it. Meaning you're not asking for permission. You're not waiting on someone else. You're not none of that.

I was very vocal back in like 2018 and 19 about the anti scaling movement. And this was something that I wanted to start where I wanted to highlight the importance of, or, or the, the non-necessity of needing to go big in order for you to have a successful business. And I got a lot of pushback on this.

from a lot of big figures back then because I was labeled as being small-minded or having money mindset blocks or hating money or hating the rich. And that wasn't the case whatsoever. It was just simply that I wanted to redefine wealth for people so that they realize that their sense of fulfillment and happiness in what they do has very little to do with how big their company gets. Because in my personal experience working behind the scenes, it almost seemed like the bigger a company got,

the less fulfilled the person in charge was with their day to day of what they had to do. What you just described is a perfect example of that. And I understand that this is always not the case. And there are cases where this is not true, but oftentimes you will find that the reason why you got into business in the first place is not the reason why you stay in business as you get bigger and bigger and bigger. And I'm so grateful that maybe like three years ago, I came across a book called Company of One by Paul Jarvis, who's Canadian as well. And

Julie Granger (39:53)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Parmees (40:17)
was also writing profusely about, you know, this whole anti-scaling and about how you can create a company of one where you become the creative person and not needing to have multiple locations and multiple team members and bigger programs. Because the more you get into the mindset of like, this is an enterprise that I need to grow, the less connected you feel to the essence of why you started that business in the first place. And like you said, like you said, it becomes like, okay, how many people can I get in here so that I can grow and scale?

How much do I need to make so that I can cover my overhead? How much, like it becomes more about the company and about scaling the company rather than serving the people who initially were your fuel and what was fueling your passion in that space. And so it's totally fine in my opinion, in my perspective, it's totally fine to be making less money, but actually feeling so much more in control of your business and feeling like.

I don't have to push back against what's happening. I don't have to justify, I don't need to defend.

I prefer to have just a handful of people that I love getting on Zoom with and I love working with and feeling excited to show up for rather than having a group of hundreds of people that are looking up to me or a part of my programs or who are passively just buying from me on the internet. And then the rest of my day is spent like managing teams or like managing ads and managing stuff. Like I would rather be in the business being able to deliver.

and to be the creative brain behind what it is that I do, rather than feeling like I have this massive company that is making me loads of money, but I don't feel connected to the people itself. So I recognize this is not for everybody, but that's just something that I've come to in my own personal and professional experience.

Julie Granger (41:59)
Yeah, well, you know, I think that the part about being close to your clients, to your audience, that's always been coming back to our first conversation about being highly intuitive, gifted, intelligent, sensitive, know, very intense is that just fits your design. It fits my design. And for me,

I definitely felt the push, the advice I was getting even from mentors was well, you eventually need to hire people to replace you to be close to the clients, which is what I had done. And I felt, to your point, like, OK, well, the reason I'm staying in business is no longer the reason I got into business. And that is a problem for me. I create my best content, writing, messaging, all the things when I'm face to face with the clients.

Parmees (42:33)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Julie Granger (42:52)
I gotta be in the mud. It's not gonna happen any other way. Second best way is by sitting and chatting with you. But.

Parmees (43:02)
Always, always.

Julie Granger (43:04)
But these are the kind of conversations I have with my clients too. So, you know, we're here. So I think that like, it's not for everyone. Some people don't want to be in the weeds with their clients. That's just not in their design. They're way more of a visionary CEO type figure. But I think we are definitely more served to be in the service, in the caretaking, in the giving, in the receiving directly to and from clients. And there are ways.

We've both figured out to do that and still make an enormous amount of money without losing that deep, deep, deep, beautiful connection with our people who are our clients.

Parmees (43:39)
Yeah. Yeah. And

exactly. One of the things that I've really come to, and I mean, the whole, you know, niching conversation is a whole thing, but I've realized that in my business, these are the types of people I want to work with. Meaning I don't make you wrong if you have a massive vision and you want to grow to millions of followers and you want to be that visionary and not have your, you know, your, your intellect and your intuition in the business itself. But I've realized that my people are the ones who want to stay.

as like boutique style or like the specialist and they find fulfillment and passion out of actually being in the weeds. And I totally understand that it is not always sustainable to always be in the weeds with your people. And I totally believe in having different ways, multifaceted ways that people can experience your genius and experience your work. As I do myself, I've got programs and things that people can buy and consume on their own. However, that doesn't take me away

from being the creative mastermind behind these things. I don't have marketing teams running my social media. I write all my own content. I write all my own events. I don't have, and again, I know also you've been told like you need to hire people to take that stuff off your plate because you're gonna get your time back and you're gonna get your time back. But all of a sudden you realize that you've scaled yourself so far away from your business that the things that actually lit you up about the business don't even light you up anymore. Because you've got a social media team managing this and you've got...

co-coaches that are managing your clients and it's like, well, that's not what you started off with. So like what, what is wealth then? Like just making a lot and having a big team, or is it like actually enjoying your day to day and what you do?

Julie Granger (45:11)
Right.

Well, and my time turned into managing a team of people and all these outsourced parts of my business that I didn't get my time back, especially because there was so many differing opinions. And I love different opinions, but it was like, no one wants to hear what I want to do. They're kind of doing it their own way. was just, it turned into being a people manager instead of

the creative and the intuitive connected piece of both the brand and the service delivery. And I think that when I scaled it down, I got all my time back. I literally had for like two years, I've had too much time on my hands where I'm like, what do I do? I mean, I've made it so simple at this point that I don't even know what to do with all my time. I'm playing the piano and

Parmees (46:01)
Yeah.

Julie Granger (46:18)
gardening, which is exactly what I want to do with my time. But it's just this very weird paradox that I think, again, I love that we're talking about it because especially for women, especially for mothers, the time economy is so precious. And we're fed back to the conformity corset. If you want to be gifted, talented, and look successful,

Parmees (46:21)
Wait.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (46:47)
then you need to hire, you need to outsource, you need to ask for help. Yes, to all of that. And you still get to be discerning on where you have your hands in the mud and your feet in the weeds. And that doesn't mean that you have a problem outsourcing. It doesn't mean you have a problem asking for help. It doesn't mean you're a control freak. These are all the lines that we are fed.

in the business world, like, you're a woman. You're a control freak. You're strong, independent woman. You're not asking for help. But actually, you get to stay in your craft as much as you want. And that's OK.

Parmees (47:24)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think their craftsmanship is like becoming a forgotten art. I went to Italy last year. I know you did too at some point, didn't you? Yeah. went to Italy last year and I remember one night sitting, it was probably one of my last nights that I was there and I was sitting at this like little bar, cafe, restaurant thing. It was like, you know, a hybrid of all of those. And I was smoking a cigar. had a little cappuccino thing and I was watching the owner.

Julie Granger (47:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Parmees (47:52)
of the restaurant, like the owner of the spot. He himself coming out to every single table and talking about the menu and how much passion he put into creating the menu and making sure everyone's okay. And yes, there were servers and know, like hostesses and all of the things, but it was so incredible seeing him actually be involved with people and me kind of being there like by myself, he came and sat with me, talked a little bit.

And he was like, I love what I do. And I'm like, it's so nice seeing you like out with your people and you know, not just sitting behind the scenes collecting money and just, you know, making sure everything is okay. And he's like, no, I love this. This is why I got into it. I want to know every tourist name that comes here. And I want to know. And I thought to myself, like, this guy takes so much pride in his craft, his craft of running a business, his craft of creating this thing. And he has people working for him. He doesn't need to be here, but he's choosing to be here because this is what brings him to life.

And I saw that metaphor play out in so many different ways when it came to craftsmanship. And I feel like in our, dare I say, North American society, we've streamlined the crap out of everything where it's, almost like it's losing that touch and essence of craftsmanship. Everything is, how we make it quicker? How do we get content out? How do we get AI to write everything for us so we don't have to spend time writing anymore or thinking anymore? Like everything has become, how do we make it faster, faster, faster? And we're removing the human touch.

Julie Granger (48:48)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Parmees (49:14)
of what made it so special and eloquent in the first place out of it. And I think that is one of the primary values of what drives me in business is to maintain that craftsmanship in everything that I do and maintain the integrity of my ideas and the evolution of my ideas, right? The master classes that I'm hosting now are wildly different than what I was hosting two years ago. And it's because I've been a person, my craft has deepened. I've unveiled deeper layers of what it is I want to talk about and what I want to teach.

Julie Granger (49:34)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (49:41)
So can I still sell those things and make a lot of money on autopilot? Absolutely. But it's not a clear representation of my current genius right now. So I think that's important to be said. And for people like us, like the luminary types to also understand that craftsmanship is also something that is a deeply held value to us.

Julie Granger (50:01)
So beautiful. I love this image of the Italian and like you sitting there with your cigar and just like chatting it up with the owner, which by the way, reminds me of sitting at a table with you in Playa del Carmen, Mexico at what was it? A Jamaican restaurant. And you go there like every night and they know you and you order off the menu. And such a great example though of also of just the owners and the family and

Parmees (50:14)
Yeah.

Yes.

Julie Granger (50:29)
having their fingers still in, literally in the food, in the weeds, serving from their hearts. And you're right, we've, in many ways, it is a great thing that we've gotten away from that for so many reasons. But in many ways in our Western North American society, we've gotten away from that and it just takes the human element out of things. And therefore, you know, the joy, the connection.

Parmees (50:35)
Yes.

Yeah,

exactly. And the relationship behind it, because even the experience that you and I had at that Jamaican restaurant, they would let me in no matter how busy they were. They would clear off a table, they would find a corner, and it wasn't because of anything special or crazy I've done, it's just the relationship that I had where I'd ask about their day and ask about what's going on. Like that connection that we had created such a deep bond where they would allow me to make my own items off the menu and the chef would put something together and it's just.

It goes to show that when you have that human touch and that human element, so many opportunities and doors open for you that, you know, don't necessarily get done when you're just to the book.

Julie Granger (51:33)
I want to talk more about Mexico. I have one more thing to say in follow up to that, which is this, I feel like there's a post coming that I want to write about this, which is when I slide into your DMs, I actually genuinely want to know how you're doing. Like To the people who have ruined that for us, that connection, I genuinely care, go to hell because I have noticed, especially with women

Parmees (51:36)
Yeah.

Yes.

Julie Granger (51:58)
people will comment on a post of mine, for example. And I'll be directing them to my DM so I can get their emails, something private that I don't want them to put in comments. I'll get their email address or something, phone number, whatever it is. then I'll be like, my god, how are you? What's going on? How's your family? How's your work? Ghosts me.

literally nothing. And I know that we're all busy and like sometimes you genuinely do want to respond and you just, you want to do it like authentically and like give it the time of day and you don't have time and you forget and six months later, here we are again. But I definitely think there's this resistance to connect, to actually have those authentic connections. I think it's very millennial. I think it's very Gen Z also cause everything's just so automatic and surface level that

I don't know, it's like we need to make America connected again.

Parmees (52:54)
Put that on a hat!

Julie Granger (52:55)
except for during my era of scaling, I've always valued growing my business through genuine connection. not I'm sliding into DMs and I'm asking you how you're doing and then I'm going to come behind it with a by the way thing. It's very much like, I just want to know how you're doing and let the rest take care of itself. So yeah.

Parmees (53:08)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Granger (53:15)
That's been a really interesting, it's hard to be like a sensitive, deep, loves connection with people in social media sometimes.

Parmees (53:24)
Yeah, because sometimes social media is kind of like, well, what can you do for me? Like if you're not going to be a client or if you're not going to be a, you know, something that benefits me in some way, then we're not, you know, I'm not even going to engage. So I feel like, yeah, I feel that.

Julie Granger (53:30)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah,

totally. OK, so Mexico. We keep alluding to it, but we should get into it. this is actually a really important part of your story. So you lived in Mexico for a while, but that's not the only place you've lived. You have mastered nomadic living and working and all of the things, but it's not for the reason that most people might think. So I want to hear.

Parmees (53:46)
Mm-hmm.

It's not by choice.

Julie Granger (53:58)
It's not by choice, actually. Yeah. mean, no one held a gun to your head. although maybe they did, but tell us the story.

Parmees (54:05)
somewhat. okay. So tell you guys a story. So this is actually a really important piece, not just because it's like my story, but because of the message that's like underlying it because being the like super plan freak academic

you know, have everything, have all your ducks in a row at all times type of person that I was four years ago. Not anymore, thanks to this experience. But because of that, I in summation, I had a plan back in 2022 to pack up my life in Canada, which is my home country where I was born and raised and moved to the US because I met a man there. We lived together for a significant period of time and we wanted to start a life together. And obviously you can't do that when there's a border between the two of you.

And so I decided, you know, I have the flexibility of being able to work from anywhere. So I'm going to close up this chapter of living in Canada and move to the U.S. I was planning on doing it the right way and I started doing it the right way. But due to some unforeseen circumstances at the border, I was not able to enter the U.S. And as a matter of fact, the visa that I had applied for was denied the day that I was moving. So literally, I had all my stuff with me moving to the States,

I had had a goodbye party, like I was all ready to go, made it to the border and they did not let me in. And the visa that I was supposed to get that day was denied. And so I had all my belongings. I had everything with me and I wasn't able to make it past. And so I think to this day, that's probably the most punch in the gut moment that I've experienced in my life because for the first time ever, I didn't know what I needed to do after that.

So imagine you had a home, you let it go, like everything is in storage or being shipped to your new place in the US and you are not legally able to enter the US. So that was the first time ever where I was like, I need to like take a step back and rethink my entire life. Like what do I even do after this? So in a nutshell, within a couple of days, I decided to move to Mexico until I figure out how I can reapply for immigration and how I can...

recreate another legal scenario where I can actually get into the States. But because I had closed up this chapter in Canada and quite literally had nowhere to go back to unless I moved back in with my parents, I decided, okay, let's just make the best of this and move to somewhere new. I chose Playa del Carmen because all throughout the pandemic, I had heard about so many clients of mine that had relocated there. And I had heard things about being like the expat capital of Mexico and about how accessible everything is and great internet and great community. So I said,

Julie Granger (56:31)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (56:42)
Screw it, I'm just gonna try. What's there to lose? So I moved to Mexico within three days of being denied at the US border. So I just showed up with all my stuff, found a place, negotiated a deal for six months, decided to pay them cash, because it's Mexico and you can do whatever you want. And so I just decided, started living in Mexico. And in the meantime, my now fiance and I were figuring out like, okay, what do we do? Like, do we get a lawyer? Like, how do we figure out this situation?

The interesting part of this entire story and the reason why I'm sharing it too is that nomadic life, and by the way, that was three years ago. I just got my visa granted to me about what, a month and a half ago. So it was three years, three years of living back and forth between going from Mexico to Canada, coming to Canada to do legal stuff with like the embassy, flying back to Mexico, because I really loved it there.

and not being able to enter the States. So I was, I was navigating not just a nomadic life of not knowing how long I'm going to be in this period of limbo, but also a long distance relationship because my partner and I were not able to see each other in person. And on top of that, I had an entire business with a full roster of clients that I needed to manage. So not that that was a hassle, but creatively showing up and being in like your best energy when there's

literal shitstorm happening behind the scenes is very difficult to do. And so, yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot of learning how to be with the present and not feeling like you need to have certainty and control in order to feel grounded within yourself. It was the biggest lesson in letting go of the timeline because obviously the timeline that I had in my head of when I'm going to move to the States and when my partner and I are going to like get an apartment together or start a new life together,

Julie Granger (58:05)
No kidding.

Parmees (58:31)
That was delayed by three years. But I didn't have the date. Like, it's not like I knew when this period was gonna end. I just had to be okay with being in the void, being in the limbo of I have no clue when this life is gonna start. And in the midst of all of this, it was moving from temporary home to temporary home because I couldn't sign a lease anywhere because I didn't know when I had to pick up and go. So I couldn't sign a lease. I would go from Airbnb to Airbnb for three straight years, even though the house that I'm living in right now is a temporary home in my hometown. It's not even like, this is not even my place.

Julie Granger (58:57)
Mm-hmm.

Parmees (59:01)
And so it was the greatest, biggest lesson in holding yourself in the tension and just truly letting go of the control of needing things to fall into place a certain way. And just the biggest lesson in patience and surrender and just taking every moment for what it's teaching you rather than making it what you think it needs to be for you to feel safe and secure.

the inner safety that I've had to develop in being like, no matter what happens, because there was also a big chance that this visa didn't even go through. And that would mean that I would have to let go of the entire relationship. Meaning me and that man could no longer be because we cannot maintain a relationship if we can't be in the same country. So there was a lot of fear. Right, So it's just truly surrendering to recognizing that whatever path or whatever is being presented to you in the reality right now,

Julie Granger (59:43)
Crazy! What a concept!

Parmees (59:55)
you get to either sulk and cry about it or just choose to accept it for what it is and make the best of that situation. I made the best of it from creating a whole new life in Mexico, meeting a bunch of people, having clients fly out to see me in Mexico. Like that was a whole adventure in its own. And I'm so grateful that I got to do that. I would not have had that chapter of my life if it wasn't for this denial. And also all of the lessons that came out of living in this period of void and this period of limbo.

So that's kind of the lesson in all of this. It's not just like, yay, nomadic life, so fun, moving around. It was not by choice. It was a state of time that was kind of forced onto me that I had to force myself to accept. But so many things came out of it in terms of character development and just like strengthening my conviction within. So that's that Mexico story. And that's why you came to Mexico.

Julie Granger (1:00:46)
why I came

to Mexico and You know, if your visa hadn't been denied, Parmees, we both wouldn't have gotten to share food poisoning together in Mexico. It's a very intimate moment.

Parmees (1:00:54)
That is true. We did do that together. We did do that together. It is. It really

brings two people together.

Julie Granger (1:01:02)
really what defines a friendship. If you haven't shared

food poisoning together, you're not really friends.

Parmees (1:01:06)
You're not really friends. Yeah. Yeah. You don't really have this bond that we got here.

Julie Granger (1:01:10)
To be fair, I gave it to you, I think. So sorry about that. I've had the privilege of witnessing it, from the very beginning. I knew you before you knew him. I just want him to know that I knew you first, And to anyone listening,

Parmees (1:01:18)
Yeah.

Yes.

Julie Granger (1:01:24)
She tells the story really beautifully and eloquently because that's how she is. It stressed me out. My husband is in on it. we're ready to adopt her, I'm literally like, let me at him. Let me at the border. Who do I need to talk to? it's been such an ordeal and that's not.

an understatement or an overstatement in any way. just is. And you've handled it truly. mean, I know behind the scenes it's been really, really hard. Like there have been some really tense moments and you've handled it truly with such grace. of course, the alchemy of the story has turned into gold. It's taught you all these wonderful things. You've modeled it for people so transparently and shared.

what is deserving of being shared. There's so much you haven't shared from behind the scenes, obviously. But I think that it's just one of those moments of it truly defines who you are. And you didn't let up on the integrity behind it either, just like you haven't in your business. It's very much like, here's what I believe. Here's what's worth fighting for. And I think that the other point that is really beautifully worth making that you mentioned very briefly, but

Parmees (1:02:28)
Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (1:02:34)
I just want to highlight is this was your choice to move to the States. it's kind of like the book, The Alchemist, where the protagonist wanted to find his personal legend, his personal treasure, and just made the choice to let his life go. Literally all of it. He sold all of his sheep and all of the things and moved to Africa. And then he lost everything as soon as he got across the border.

Parmees (1:02:52)
Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:02:58)
I'm pretty sure Paulo Coelho might have been inspired by you, like in another life. But it's been so beautiful. you made that choice knowing that your fiance couldn't make that choice also, not easily. And so it's also not some type of bow down to your man

Parmees (1:03:12)
Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:03:16)
I'm moving for him kind of thing. It's very much this is what we've decided is best for us. And so it's like the two of you have also handled it with a lot of grace amidst great trials, which has been really.

Parmees (1:03:26)
Thank you. It's been,

yeah, it's been an interesting experience also because like you said, I thought that the big transformation was just letting go of my life in Canada and moving there. Like I thought that was the big thing where it's like, like I'm cutting ties with my friends and family and I had a house and we sold that and let go of all my belongings. And it was like this big, beautiful thing where I'm like, I'm closing this chapter and starting a new one, even though there's a lot of uncertainty about our future, but I'm willing to do that. Boy, was I wrong. That was just the beginning.

That was just the initial test and then everything else that came through it But one of the things that I think is also important for your listeners to recognize is that these times of trials and tribulations and being pushed Literally to your capacity and feeling the edges of your capacity be stretched those are the things that truly make your character and as brutal as these last three years of pen just Navigating. I mean, there's so much that I didn't share in terms of like legal fees and the amount of things that I should had to get me to do

I quite literally would tell my clients that I have a part-time job on the side and it's immigration, like with all the paperwork and all the different cities I had to go to in Canada because like there's one embassy that did one thing and then another consulate that did something else. Like I had to, you there was, was a lot of time and effort that was spent on the actual creation of this immigration case so I can get approved. But it's being put through that ring of fire of when you don't know if you're going to make it through or not. That really kind of crafts.

Julie Granger (1:04:29)
It's immigration, yep.

Parmees (1:04:54)
that sense of groundedness and that conviction within yourself. And I'm grateful for this experience because no matter what happens on the other side, like I can get to the States and who knows, maybe my fiance and I don't stay together. Like there's so many unknowns that might happen. I will still feel like, it's fine because I've gone through this really rough period of uncertainty. And if I got through that, I can get through anything. And I know that the difficulty is strengthening me rather than trying to break me down.

Julie Granger (1:05:18)
Yeah.

Parmees (1:05:23)
So that's, yeah, that's just something important to highlight for people to know. Cause Everyone at some point will go through a period of uncertainty or a period of like, feel like I'm not in control. And it's like in those moments where truly understanding the art of detachment and surrender and trusting yourself and bringing the attention back to yourself and not needing your external circumstances to look a certain way for you to feel safe. That is the ultimate test of character.

Julie Granger (1:05:48)
Well, thank you for summing up the core message of this podcast right there. She doesn't even know what it is, guys. She didn't actually help me write that one. But I mean, generally, that is the premise of sink and swim is when you sink deeply into yourself, that's where you find the strength to rise and swim. And it's always going to be, I mean, almost always going to be something you didn't sign up for willingly.

Parmees (1:05:55)
Bam.

Okay.

Julie Granger (1:06:15)
I mean, sometimes you do. Sometimes, like, I chose to sink my own ship in my business, but I also knew it would be painful and difficult and all those things and I'd go through a transformation. But that's because I'd done it before. That's because the universe had handed me my own cards, like, so many times outside of my choice. So, again, you modeled that so beautifully that you didn't, you did sign up for it technically, but like you said, you thought the move itself was

Parmees (1:06:31)
Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:06:44)
beginning and the end. And it was truly just, just the tip of the iceberg. And I hope that it all gets to settle. I have a feeling the story is not done. I don't know.

Parmees (1:06:45)
Thanks.

I have a feeling

tonight we'll be sitting in person soon, so.

Julie Granger (1:06:59)
Yeah.

Yes, we'll be doing our next episode in my office. You'll be sitting in my chair. It'll be beautiful. Amazing. Well, okay. Well, we could go on and on for at least 16 more days. So we'll have to have at least 16 more episodes. But next week, we'll be back. I have some lightning round questions for you

Parmees (1:07:04)
in your office.

100 % on the next week.

Julie Granger (1:07:24)
Alright, it's time for the lightning round! If you could be any animal other than a human, what would it be and why?

Parmees (1:07:30)
I would like to be a horse. I feel like horses have, aside from the fact that they just, they're beautiful and like majestic, I feel like there is like this aura and essence to them where they're both useful to humans, like they serve, but also like their own powerhouse in their own way, even when they're not serving. And I feel like that's like very metaphorically representative of how I operate in my life.

Julie Granger (1:07:58)
Yes, also like wise and

gentle and intuitive. And they remind me of big dogs in many ways. Yeah, really smart. Yeah, that sums you up pretty well, I'd say. OK, love it. Thanks. All right, next one. If you could get a drink with two people, dead or alive, who are they, why? And for each one, what would you say to them or ask them?

Parmees (1:08:02)
Yes.

And they're smart. yes. Yeah.

Mm.

Okay, there's so many, so many people I can pick from, but I'm gonna go with the two original people that, they're not alive. Two original people that started to shape my perspectives of my outlook on philosophy and life. Victor Frankl being one of them. He's very well known for his book, Man's Search for Meaning, which was written while he was in a concentration camp, believe it or not. And I think,

everything that we just talked about in relevance to the sink or swim is very much captivated in his perspective of staying alive for a why and having a purpose beyond yourself that becomes like the North Star that guides you through things. So that would be one individual that I would love to ask about his own trials and tribulations during that process of putting together that work.

Julie Granger (1:09:12)
Hmm.

Parmees (1:09:15)
The second person who could be a little bit controversial in the philosophy psychology space is Albert Camus, who is a French Algerian philosopher. And he is most known for his philosophy of absurdism, which I think would be very controversial if spoken about in like the current political climate and the current kind of world state around, he's not an anarchist and he's not a nihilist, but he.

believes in the absurdity of life and kind of breaking free from the confines of rules and structure and needing to follow what society has crafted as being like our norm, which again, I think goes back to a lot of the things that we talked about today. So for anyone who is like philosophy curious, I would highly recommend looking at looking through some of his work. Again, could be controversial and it can kind of.

challenge some of your views on the world, but that's always a good thing when we're being challenged and kind of pushed to see things from a different perspective.

Julie Granger (1:10:17)
for sure.

I would certainly want to know what he would have to say about the current climate of the world, not just the US, but the whole world, because it's not just here. It's everywhere. And I think that the pendulum swings. And it makes sense that it's one so polarized. We could get into a whole conversation about that. But that there is this pull in one direction or another, and there's resistance both ways. So if you're so curious about that, we'll have to ask him.

when he returns. Okay, next question. Does pineapple belong on pizza?

Parmees (1:10:55)
You know what, Italians would kill me for this. I've had really good pizza with pineapple on it. So does it belong there? Maybe not belong, that's a really strong word, but can it make it there and be okay and do all right? Yeah, it can. Yeah. Cool.

Julie Granger (1:11:05)
You

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I

heard recently, now I'm gonna blank on the country where it was actually invented, that Hawaiian pizza was actually invented in like Germany.

Parmees (1:11:16)
Thank

I heard that too. I heard that too. Yeah, I've heard that too. Yeah, and you know what? I trust German engineers, so I say that's fine. We know what they're doing.

Julie Granger (1:11:22)
Not Hawaii.

That's interesting.

They're pretty close to Italy. Yeah, Italians will kill us

for this conversation. yep. Okay. Next one. I know the answer to this, but I definitely want to hear what you have to say. All right. Imagine I'm a fly on the wall on an average Friday night for you. What do I see you doing?

Parmees (1:11:48)
Gosh, I'm probably on my laptop with like jazz music playing and I either am with a book or lit like writing things out That's been my Friday night for the past. I don't know eight to nine weeks straight so

Julie Granger (1:12:00)
So sexy. This is like,

this is my ideal Friday night right there. And this is why when we were in Mexico, that's, well, we didn't actually do that. Well, we pretty much did that. We sat and ate dinner with monkeys around and basically without a laptop had these deep conversations.

Parmees (1:12:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

conversations,

yeah, which should have been recorded, but you know, that's why we're here now.

Julie Granger (1:12:21)
All right, last question. What's a guilty pleasure or obsession of yours that people may find surprising, weird, quirky, or questionable?

Parmees (1:12:21)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, my brain went to two things immediately, which I don't know if it's quirky, but I have a lot of tattoos and people are usually shocked to figure that out. I don't know why it's because I'm like, again, fitting into the box of like, yeah, the nerd academic type person and it's like, why are you tatted up? So that's one. I don't know if it's like an obsession, but it was definitely got addicting for a while.

Julie Granger (1:12:37)
We'll take two.

because you're nerdy.

Parmees (1:13:02)
That's one. The second one is that I'm really into cigars. And I think for the person who like, I'm also very health conscious and I'm very like, you know, all things well being and like, I don't drink alcohol and a lot of that stuff. And people are usually like, well, why do you smoke then? And I'm like, I don't like I'm not a smoker. Like I'm not I don't smoke cigarettes or anything like that. But I feel like there's an art to cigar that is very elegant. And it's less about like,

Julie Granger (1:13:23)
Mm.

Parmees (1:13:28)
the smoking aspect of it and it's also, it's more about the experience of the smoke. It's like having a nice flavored cigar with like a coffee and thinking or like writing with that cigar. Cause you're also not with a cigar. You don't just like puff, puff, puff. Like it's slow. It's like, yeah, that the experience of it. So.

Julie Granger (1:13:32)
Mm-hmm.

I feel like this picture of you with the cigar and the coffee and the laptop on a Friday night, this is your avatar. That's it. That's it. Yeah.

Parmees (1:13:55)
It is, it is, it very much is. Yeah.

Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:14:02)
There might be some bachata in there also.

Parmees (1:14:04)
Yeah,

there may be some like Latin jazz playing in the background. Definitely. Definitely. But that is the aesthetic that is definitely very on brand.

Julie Granger (1:14:12)
V on brand, absolutely. Amazing. Thank you for participating in the lightning round, our first ever. Those questions are going to evolve, I'm sure. But we'll see. OK, tell us, summing up, what's next for you? Is there anything you want to tell us about, promote, anything? I'm going to drop links in the show notes once I figure out how to do that.

Parmees (1:14:18)
Great questions. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I will say

that. So, nothing that I would want to like overtly promote. I think it's important to note this because it kind of goes with the theme of what we've talked about. I went through a like a two and a half month internal hibernation cycle between December and February. And this is now March that we're recording this. And it's probably been like a week and a half that I've like come out of the weeds. So this is the first time I'm hopping on a podcast and actually speaking in a very long time.

Julie Granger (1:15:04)
Wee!

Parmees (1:15:06)
And I think that one of the biggest things that also drives me in my business, which is kind of different than what we're told, is I work in very particular cycles. I have like these creative cycles where I have a lot of output, a lot of things that I do, and then I retreat. And I always say that I function like an athlete that's like on season, off season. Like there's an on season where I just go ham and it's just like daily posts and content pieces. And I go six hours on zoom for like two months and then I like retreat and do my thing. So.

Julie Granger (1:15:22)
Yes.

Parmees (1:15:36)
I'm just coming out of a retreat period now and I'm probably going to be on this like outward sprint for a little while. So I'm going to be publishing a lot of the thoughts that really like incubated and germinated at that time where I was like away and thinking where I was finding it really difficult to put things into words. And you know how we are like, we're creative, we're writers. So for me to like not be able to verbalize things is like, that's what I know. I need to take a step back and like allow the ideas to just like marinate.

Julie Granger (1:15:46)
Hmm.

Totally.

Parmees (1:16:04)
Otherwise, I'm just creating for the sake of creating rather than actually feeling like I'm expressing. So yeah, around December, January, I was finding it really hard to put anything into words, like even personal text messages. So I was like, I need to take a step back from everything and just let this incubate.

Julie Granger (1:16:19)
She did disappear

y'all. She did, I checked on her. I was like, are you alive?

Parmees (1:16:22)
Are you okay?

Yeah, I was I silent on social media like I was I was in my own Yeah, I was just I was out of it I was out of it and usually people think that you go through like a depressive episode if that happens But it's not the case. Actually, it was quite the opposite. I was like I was on winter hikes I was like cuz I'm back in Canada now and it's like dead in the cold of winter We've also had the most intense winter apparently since 1971. So I definitely picked the best winter to be here

Julie Granger (1:16:27)
You went silent and DMs, you were silent.

So good, yeah.

Parmees (1:16:52)
So I was on winter hikes. was like, was reading, was cocooning, like it was all the things. Now I'm just re-emerging and like really going hard with getting my ideas out there because I can finally speak about them from a place of being like embodied rather than forcing it out of me. With that being said, what's coming up next is I am running a 30 day challenge. I don't know when this is going to be released, but it's going to be happening in April.

Julie Granger (1:16:53)
You

Parmees (1:17:16)
And this is something that germinated during this time where I was away, where I realized that there's a lot of really brilliant people who have no idea how to talk about their expertise. And so they do one of two things. Either they go and just start creating things randomly and start putting things out there without any sort of structure or frame. And it's great for self-expression, but people don't know like how to categorize them or like why they would want to work with them. So they either do that or they don't say anything at all because they're behind the scenes planning and plotting about what's the best way to.

Julie Granger (1:17:39)
Yeah.

Parmees (1:17:46)
create content. So I decided to kind of solve both of those issues and create a 30 day challenge for the month of April, where I'm specifically creating prompts and trainings on how to speak about your expertise in 30 different angles. And so every day you'll be sent a prompt. So that's, and it's free. It's totally free. You can join and just kind of like experiment with it and see where that goes. So that's one cool thing that I'm up to. I'm going to be spending two weeks in Spain in, in April.

Julie Granger (1:18:11)
EEEE! So cool.

Parmees (1:18:13)
That's gonna be fun. That's gonna be another adventure thing that my fiance and I will do together before I enter the States. And then I'm be finally entering the States in May. And that's gonna be like a full circle moment from when I tried to enter the States May of 2022 and didn't get into it. So yeah, I'm excited because there's a whole other chapter starting both personally and professionally once I get there that...

I think it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be transformational in and of itself. There's many ways that my business is evolving. My mentorship is evolving. I currently have a wait list for people who want to get mentored by me when it comes to messaging, positioning, brand building, ethical sales, building a presence that naturally brings people in. very like non-salesy in my approach. So there's many moving parts, but that's kind of the gist of what I have coming next.

Julie Granger (1:19:01)
Berry.

Wow. Well, first of all, I signed up for your 30-day challenge. And here's another reason to sign up for anyone listening. I also have been in the winter slumber. I've actually been in the winter slumber for about two years. It's been a long winter by choice. And I have the longest ass list of topics ever. And I look at my list, I'm like, usually I'm just kind of like, ooh, that's the one that feels right today. But I kind of want this little prompt that's like, ooh, actually,

Parmees (1:19:17)
Yes.

We have.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (1:19:36)
draw from this part today. And I already know, and you already know that if I don't want to follow your rule, I'm not going to. That's the beauty of it. Parmees is not going to send you to the principal's office and she's not going to be checking up on you. She's not that kind of person. But it's just kind of like, Ooh, that might be fun. And if I fall off the wagon halfway through, okay, whatever, who cares? Like no one's going to die. But yeah, it's super, super awesome. Also, I guess we seem to plan our international trips like in sync because I went to Spain.

Parmees (1:19:55)
Thanks.

Julie Granger (1:20:05)
this year too, and I will be booking my ticket to Puerto Rico very soon.

Parmees (1:20:11)
Yes, I look forward to that, especially. So, yeah.

Julie Granger (1:20:15)
You know

what I think is cool? It's round two, or I guess it's technically round three of trying to enter the states.

Parmees (1:20:22)
It is, yeah, it technically is.

Julie Granger (1:20:24)
Third time's a charm. She left out the second one, but you guys don't need to hear about it, because it's really more or less the same as the first.

Parmees (1:20:33)
Equally traumatizing too, but yeah.

Julie Granger (1:20:35)
for all of us, more for you. But yeah, definitely very difficult to hear that news. I think what's really cool now that you're doing it, kind of like you said, and this is a great place to conclude, is you, when you entered, tried to enter before,

You weren't the same person as you are now. You've really evolved and gotten your feet under you. And whatever happens next, you'll be fine. I know you'll be fine, because look at what you've been through. And you sank in, and now you're swimming. And you'll swim maybe circumnavigating Puerto Rico, if you must. They don't let you in. And I think that that's just so.

Parmees (1:20:57)
No.

Yes. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:21:23)
cool. and it's, it's those deep sinking moments when we, if you've never had one, then it's going to be far more difficult to navigate the next one because there will always be a next. But it also gives you the strength to navigate the highest highs too, because those are equally as vulnerable and deep and profound if you let yourself fully sink into it. So the sinking is not just for the traumatic, terrible, awful,

Parmees (1:21:31)
Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:21:52)
unexpected, it's also for the joyful, profound, exciting times too. So I feel like sky's the limit for you at this point on what comes next. Who knows what she'll be doing next? So y'all pay attention.

Parmees (1:21:59)
Mm-hmm. 100%. 100%. Yeah.

Really.

Truly. And I'm turning 30 this

year, so it's like, woohoo. Now this was all just a free trial of adulthood. Now the real thing begins. This was just the precursor to getting into real adulthood. free trial. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:22:21)
Free trial, now you're gonna opt in, pay the $30

a month or whatever it is. Subscription fee.

Parmees (1:22:27)
Yeah.

Exactly. It's a real adulterate. So the back, I'm just kidding.

Julie Granger (1:22:32)
Welcome!

do feel like

30 was sort of the, yeah, okay, this is adulthood now, age. Yeah.

Parmees (1:22:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so it's coming. It's coming this year. But no, you're absolutely right. And I also do think that sometimes you're not given what you want until you become the person who's ready to receive it. That's also been like a risk. And I've seen it in my own experience. And like you said, the person I was three years ago is not the person now. I'm not saying that I wasn't worthy of getting into the States like three years ago, but there was definitely some experiences through these three years that have shaped me to become a lot stronger and to be a better partner as well.

Julie Granger (1:22:52)
Woo!

Mm.

Parmees (1:23:11)
to develop

in that relationship in a different way. And I think this experience of us even being apart and just navigating long distance for three years with very minimal contact in person, that itself was a huge thing for healing a lot of me. So yeah, I definitely do think that sometimes the experiences that are thrown your way, whether they be delays, denials, or just redirects, they're all there to kind of help shape and mold you into the person that you need to become to actually get to the thing that you want to get to.

And I feel like the moment I embodied that is when the visa came through, of course. So.

Julie Granger (1:23:38)
amazing.

Of

of course, as soon as you fully let go is when it finally arrives. Always, always. Well, you are going to write an amazing book about this one day. I'll be writing the foreword. I'll help you edit it. It'll be amazing. All right. Well, whatever I drop in the show notes, make sure you go follow her, click on the things, all of the things, and we'll absolutely have you back like 16, if not.

Parmees (1:23:47)
Yes. Thanks.

One day. Yep, it's coming. It's Mm-hmm. Yes.

Thank you.

Definitely look forward to it.

Julie Granger (1:24:12)
16,000 times. So

you're the muse behind the podcast. So thank you.

Parmees (1:24:18)
you.