When Women in Healthcare Listen to Their Bodies Instead of Their Bosses: Dr Jess on the Wild Leap into Something Real

In this powerful conversation, Dr. Jessica DeJarnette — physician, startup co-founder, nervous system nerd, and wildly untamed human — shares her story of dismantling the life that looked perfect on paper: white coat, paycheck, purpose. But behind the scenes? Dissociation. Identity unraveling. A body screaming no more.

We talk about the trauma behind burnout (yes, we name it), the grief of letting go of status and stability, and the radical trust it takes to follow your body’s wisdom — even when the path ahead is foggy.

If you’ve ever found yourself resenting the very life you worked so hard to build — the business, the job, the family, the good girl persona — this one will crack something open.

Because the truth is, healing doesn’t always look graceful. Sometimes it looks like walking away from everything you thought would save you. And realizing the only map forward is the one your soul’s been holding all along.

00:00 – A Life That Looks Good, But Doesn’t Feel Right
We open with what so many high-achieving women feel but rarely say: “I built this... and I’m still not okay.”

06:49 – Emergency Medicine, Adrenaline, and the Breaking Point
Dr. Jess reflects on her early career in the ER and when the pace of saving lives started costing her own.

15:11 – “I Dissociated Through My 30s”
She names what many women in medicine feel but can’t admit: the survival state that became her baseline.

23:26 – From Inner Collapse to Inner Compass
A slow, terrifying unraveling — and how her intuition (plus a stranger in Alaska) helped her walk away.

33:28 – Nomad Life, Nervous Systems, and Building from Blank Page
Leaving behind the house, the job, the plan. How she rebuilt safety and identity without a blueprint.

44:01 – Why She Co-Founded a Trauma Healing Startup
A deep dive into why our systems can’t heal trauma — and what she’s doing instead.

59:13 – “I Want to Be a Forest Witch”
On redefining success, reclaiming wildness, and why she’s finally letting herself want what she wants.

Love what you hear? Itching to discover more from Dr. Jess?

Make sure you're following her on Instagram at @jessicadejarnette_md

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Transcript

Julie Granger (00:00)

Welcome to Sink and Swim,

podcast that invites you to sink deeply into your

the stories you were born to tell about yourself,

swim and shine unapologetically into your soul's

I'm your host, Julie

this is the space where we celebrate the powerful, raw, and transformative stories of

have discovered that life isn't sink or

It's sink and swim.

These are the people who have gone from paddling furiously to rise, succeed, and stay on top in life,

and their relationships,

to instead sinking into the deepest and most hidden stories of the soul

discovering there the power to rise to even higher heights.

My guest and I will share our untamed, unfiltered truths and

and illuminate how to live in love with more purpose, wholeheartedness, freedom, and

So take a deep breath, settle in,

on your swimsuit, goggles, and

and get ready to sink into the deep end with us.

Julie Granger (00:58)

Hello, my friends. Welcome back to Sink and Swim. If you have ever felt like your whole life was engineered to make sure you never sink, then consider this episode, Your Permission slip to stop resisting that descent. Today, I had the joy of talking to someone who has not only sunk, but who has risen and swum again and again and again. As a doctor,

as a healer, as a nomad, as a rebel with a stethoscope, Dr. Jessica DeJarnette, AKA Dr. Jess, has walked away from emergency medicine, built a new relationship with her intuition, and co-founded a startup that's reimagining how we heal from trauma. And listen, if you've ever felt like you built a life that now feels like a cage, or you're the one holding everyone together but no one's holding you,

or you just know something's got to change, but you're scared because you don't know what's on the other side, then consider this episode your flashlight in the dark. We're talking about nervous system overwhelm, wild women medicine, how to the difference between a hard moment and a dead end, and yes, why the real regulation might actually be in surrendering to the dysregulation.

This is becoming a common theme in so many of my episodes. There's even a moment that we joke about Navy SEAL training. You'll see. So pour your tea, put on your swim fins and come eavesdrop on a conversation that will remind you that your intuition is not reckless. Your rebellion is not a phase you're going through and your soul always knows the way even when the algorithm doesn't.

So let's dive in, time to sink and swim.

Julie Granger (02:34)

All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Sink and Swim podcast. Today's guest is the kind of person who reminds you that healing is not linear, ever. Rebellion isn't reckless, even though you might have been conditioned to believe that. And your intuition probably knows what the hell it's doing as long as you can just safely tap in and listen to it. Dr. Jessica DeJarnette, AKA Dr. Jess.

is a lifelong nomad, a doctor, a daughter, a sister, and an auntie to many amazing little ones. She's originally from the land of sweet tea and fried chicken, same as me, and now settled in San Francisco. She is a bridge between the rational and the magical worlds. She's an integrative primary care physician with a focus on mental health and addiction at an inner city clinic for the underserved, which I love.

She's a burnout coach for healthcare workers, which I love even more. She's a co-founder for a startup working to change the way we heal from trauma, which I love the most. And she's wild to her core. She's a trained forest bathing guide and has been carving her own unique life since she could walk. And she's most content while roaming free and unfenced.

Jessica De Jarnette (03:28)

Yes.

Yes.

Julie Granger (03:49)

places, me too, and helping people break away from the wounds and stories that keep them stuck. So welcome Dr. Jess. Thank you for being here. I'm so excited that you're here.

Jessica De Jarnette (03:51)

you so much.

Thank you for having me, Julie. Such a pleasure. So excited.

Julie Granger (04:02)

You know, I

love this summary of you, which you wrote, not me. ⁓ And I am so happy to be able to pass it along and share it to our audience. And what I love about it as I read it was I was like, yeah, I have always known that about you. So for our listeners, we've met through a mutual friend at our mutual friend Ashley's wedding, actually. And or maybe before that, I don't remember, but it was somewhere in that time of life.

Jessica De Jarnette (04:07)

Thank

I'm in

20s. ⁓

Julie Granger (04:27)

Yeah, post-college,

world, grad school. And I remember just seeing that in you, that carving your own path vibe. And I loved it. I was not in that vibe in my life at that time. And I think I really looked up to it. I think I really admired it. So I'm so glad.

Jessica De Jarnette (04:39)

Okay.

Thank you. Yeah, I it was

a funny story, anecdote really that'll give you some insight. When I was a child, I was so desperate to be different from everyone around me, even at the age of like, I was in elementary school, probably six or seven. And I was definitely born in Georgia, right? Like I born and raised. My parents had lived in Texas before I was born. I was conceived in Texas.

Julie Granger (04:57)

You

Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (05:10)

To my you know young brain Texas is very exotic and so I decided I was gonna tell people I was born in Texas So different, know everyone around me was born in Georgia I was born you know, and so I told this little white lie for for many years and eventually my family found out and Still to this day. I'm 41 years old harasses me about

my ⁓ made-up birthplace. You know, at some point I decided to start telling the truth. I just always wanted to be different. can remember. Exactly. I could have been more there, you know.

Julie Granger (05:39)

You

I love this.

You know, you gotta forge your own trail and if that means making up where you're born, great!

You could have been. mean, conceived there, it depends on our definition of life, and we're not going to get into that. you know,

yeah. OK, I love this. What I also love is I was born in Mississippi, but I tell everyone I'm from Georgia. That's like a little detail. So I'm like the opposite. It's this little detail that never makes it into the story. So while we're here telling the truth about where we were actually born, that's important.

Jessica De Jarnette (06:12)

Hmm. Yeah, I know that. Complicated. Right, right.

Julie Granger (06:25)

Well,

OK, we have lots of things to dig in today. We're to dig into your story about being a physician and how you have really redefined your role there and used that to springboard all sorts of new parts of your career, which I love. Your own personal journeys, walkabouts that have changed everything. We're going to get into the mystic side of you, which I just adore.

And even your feisty female leadership side. So lots of things to dig into. But first, tell us about, so what I didn't mention in your intro is you were trained or started to train or have a background in the emergency room. And then you left there and chose a different path. So yes. Tell me about it.

Jessica De Jarnette (06:49)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. I did. That's just like a good answer, right?

Yeah, so, you know, when I started medical school, I was the person that loved everything, right? I loved, you know, at first I wanted to be a neurosurgeon and then I wanted to be a pediatrician. And, you know, I just was so fascinated by all facets of medicine and...

Julie Granger (07:25)

Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (07:26)

You know eventually you have to choose a path right and so for me ER was a natural progression I love procedures. I loved The fast pace you know the adrenaline I loved I mean to be quite frank and we can dive into this a little more But I wanted to be a hero right and I was quite addicted to that feeling You know, so it's definitely a bit of an ego piece there

Julie Granger (07:45)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (07:54)

you know, and looking back, you don't really see it in the time. And yeah, I just, have a very quick mind. And so I liked, you know, being able to like quickly make decisions and triage. And it was very exciting. And, you know, you can do anything as a student, I always say, right? You can do anything for couple of months. And it was really fun as a student. And I was super excited. I loved going to work. I

you know, so passionate about it. And I also have a degree in global health. And so I really wanted to work internationally and, you know, work on bringing critical care to, or, you know, scaling up critical care in low and middle income countries. That was my path. And, you know, as I entered residency and started,

Julie Granger (08:23)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (08:37)

shit got real. You know, like, you go from being a student and just sort of learning for the sake of learning and experience and then suddenly you're thrust into everything's on you. And when I say everything, like obviously as an intern, you have your attendings, you have your residents, but the hospital where I was working was quite busy, a very busy trauma center and

Julie Granger (08:39)

Haha!

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (09:01)

My first rotation was actually trauma. And I was put in some pretty horrific situations I was not all prepared for, despite my many months of training, you know. And I really started to question, is this how I want to spend my life? Like every day.

I realized in the ER, everybody in the ER is, it's like the worst day of their life or one of, right? Like no one wants to be there. Like it's always some dramatic situation for the most part. And it really wears on you after a while. You know, I think like certain personality types can handle that and are adept at, you know, the boundaries there. And I started to realize I just wasn't.

Julie Granger (09:38)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (09:40)

You know, I took everything home with me. I started not sleeping. My health was suffering. I know now I was, I've had PTSD for a long time, but it was really triggering it, in the worst way, you know, and I was becoming anxious every shift and I realized eventually, you know, I couldn't finish my training. I could do this for a few years, but I cannot do this for 20 years, 30 years. You know, I can't do this my whole career. I will.

Julie Granger (09:47)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (10:06)

not survive. I'm just at the time I didn't know about, you know, nervous system regulation and, you know, the different states of activation and such. But, you know, just living in that sympathetic overdrive for months, years on end, like, I couldn't do it, you know, and so I, and I also, I had a situation with a male supervisor who actually was bullying me. And

not pulling a victim card here at all. really like the situation was really terrible. But in the end, at the end of the day, it was the best thing that could have happened because that was really the catalyst that led me to walk away. I think if that had not happened, I would have stuck it out. I would have stayed where I was trying to prove myself, you know, but that really was like the straw that broke the camel's back for me where I had the

Julie Granger (10:50)

Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (10:54)

I didn't have a choice. There comes a point, I think, in a lot of people's careers and situations that are harmful to you where you literally know you can't go on and you don't know what's next, but you know you can't do this. And so I made the decision to leave at the end of my intern year. I had no plans. I had no job. I was not switching to another residency. I didn't even know if I wanted to continue in medicine. I just knew I had to get out, and I did.

It was the best decision I've ever made.

Julie Granger (11:23)

my gosh, I'm so glad you got out. I'm so

grateful that you see that that dark place is the catalyst for your rebirth, so to speak. I love, I so resonate with the personality trait of you love everything.

Jessica De Jarnette (11:38)

Yeah, it's pretty obvious.

Julie Granger (11:40)

When you said that, was like, I feel seen. I guess I'll just have to pick one

track though. And that, I think I just wrote a post about that that was like, well, I guess I got to pick a track because that's what you're supposed to do. And you can never contain that type of trait.

Jessica De Jarnette (11:50)

He's dead. He's dead. dead. dead.

I know I

society loves to put us in boxes, right? And we do it to each other too, right? It's easier for our brains if we can categorize people as a certain thing. you know, brains are constantly sifting and sorting through information all day long. And, you know, for company from a company perspective, right? Like it's you hire someone for a defined role and that's

Julie Granger (12:03)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

you

Jessica De Jarnette (12:22)

where they are, that's what they do, right? so, you know, society has really groomed us into, you've gotta be this one thing. You've gotta pick one path. And I do think, I mean, there's so much to be said for focusing, right? Because if your energy is really scattered all the time, it's really hard to get things done. And I've struggled with that my whole career. But at the same time,

Julie Granger (12:36)

yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (12:43)

we're not all wired the same and we don't all have one life path. And I'm really excited that you are bringing such attention to the fact that a lot of us are created for multiple different paths and that's okay. And it's very needed that this other voice in the space, you know what I mean? For people to be able to create their own journey. So yeah.

Julie Granger (13:05)

Yeah.

So beautiful. Thank you for that. ⁓ Slight tangent, and then I have a question. I love that you said that society really likes to label us because that's how our brains are wired, that zero and one type of categorization. It brings safety, right? It feels good. It helps us feel like we can predict people and all of that. I just, a couple of days ago, was.

Jessica De Jarnette (13:08)

Mmm. Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

and

Julie Granger (13:29)

I'm not really into Instagram metrics, like how my posts perform or anything, but I was just looking at them and I noticed that recently, mine plummeted. And it coincides with me really stepping out and showing all sides of me, all parts, like the super kind of sophisticated likes to dress up, the muddy mountain biker, the...

Jessica De Jarnette (13:43)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (13:52)

funny, goofy, dresses up and does funny reels that are satire, and then the very serious, deep, profound thinker, like all of that stuff. And I was talking to a social media expert about this, and they were like, well, yeah, because you don't fit in any one box, the algorithm doesn't know what to do with you. And I was like, my god, that's so true, and that's how humans work too. And ⁓ it was so affirming that I was like, well,

Jessica De Jarnette (13:59)

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (14:16)

I'm not going to change that, so I guess I just might not have great social media performance and here we are.

Jessica De Jarnette (14:17)

That was very

true. I've heard that as well. The algorithm, like, you know, as a creator, you have to pick a lane and I know, so we all live and die by this in our brains and our devices, right? But you can break the good news.

Julie Granger (14:28)

You gotta be monolithic. Yeah.

⁓ well, OK. You know

what's interesting about that? And I think it's a segue into my next question, which is, as someone who's so multivariate, multi-interested, and multi-passionate, and has that, want to be the hero. I want to save people, for better or worse, which you're learning. I think that, especially going into health care, and most of my audience is women in health care, that can be a really

And then, of course, it can be an Achilles heel and set you up for a lot of things you're describing of shutdown, burnout, all of that kind of stuff. So I'm curious with your own process and your own understanding, especially you hinted at nervous system activation and regulation and all that, how would you actually define what's actually behind burnout, especially in the health care field? Because I think that people might be like, it's the job or it's the

Jessica De Jarnette (15:11)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (15:27)

you know, work-life balance that's not set up for, that a company doesn't set us up for success with. So tell us your perspective on

Jessica De Jarnette (15:34)

Yeah, I mean, I think about this every day. And so I think the best way for me to describe it is the journey of say, I'm gonna use a medical student, because that's my background, the one I know best. But any healthcare professional, think has a similar path. And so hopefully this resonates, but you have a really empathetic and driven and

highly motivated and intelligent person that wants to do great things in the world. That's who goes into healthcare. And then healthcare is an industry that to me is run by fear, right? And so the fear starts early. Like we start studying for exams, we have to keep our grades up. We are so afraid to mess up because we gotta get into school, right? That's the first hurdle.

Julie Granger (16:05)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (16:27)

We pass all the things, we get into school. And then when you're in school, I mean, the studying gets even more intense. I remember I literally almost failed my first medical school exam because I didn't know how to study. Like I really didn't until I got to med school. I crammed my whole way through high school and college, you know? And then I got to med school, was like, wow, okay. It's time to take this seriously.

Julie Granger (16:45)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (16:50)

And so then the fear drives you for that. Like you've got to, you know, do well, you have to perform, perform, perform. And you're sort of indoctrinated into this culture of fear. And by the time you do your rotations and start a residency, you've changed as a person, right? And I look at this arc because, you know, I have a lot of friends that are medicine, a lot that aren't, and I sort of

compare the two groups, RCT in my own mind, of people I've known from a young age, early 20s to now early 40s, and how we've all changed over time. And it's pretty remarkable to see the personality changes in my friends who've done medicine and the ones who have not. And it's not across the board, like not everyone has changed in a...

Julie Granger (17:16)

You

Jessica De Jarnette (17:36)

significant way, but I'd say most of us have, myself included. And you learn to start, particularly as a resident, you learn to start ignoring your body. You learn to start ignoring those signals of I'm tired, I'm hungry, my boundaries are being crossed every single day by patients, by attendings, by, and you suppress, suppress, suppress to get through your day, because you're tough, right? You can't show weakness.

Another little anecdote, a light bulb moment for me when I was an intern in the ER. Our shifts were, we had eight hour shifts, but they ended up being nine or 10 typically. No meal breaks, right? And that's not really common in ER to have a meal break for physicians, right? Like nurses can give breaks, but doctors do not. Maybe they do now. They did not then 12 years ago.

Julie Granger (18:14)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (18:19)

I really struggle to keep my brain flowing without food, right? I'm one of those people that is constantly snacking. Like I just, my blood sugar plummets, I don't do well on periods of not eating. And it was sort of frowned upon slash I got some talking to about having food at my desk. And so I would go to the bathroom to pee.

Julie Granger (18:29)

Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (18:43)

and literally bring my peanut butter jelly in the bathroom with me and eat it on the toilet as I was going to the bathroom. And at one point I this moment of like, this isn't normal. Like this shouldn't be okay that I don't even get to, I'm like saving lives that I don't even get to eat food. Like for the time I'm working, you know? And same with like rounding on the hospital. Like I would keep a bag of peanut &Ms in my pocket and just like.

snack like a squirrel, like so I wouldn't pass out, you know, hypoglycemia. You know, was starting to be like this, we aren't even allowed to take care of ourselves. Like, how is this okay? You know, and that was kind of a big moment for me. And then you throw on top of that the very, I'd say blatant gaslighting and horrible behavior.

Julie Granger (19:10)

Good job. ⁓

Become a patient.

Jessica De Jarnette (19:34)

as a female's misogyny a lot of the time, right? I've had a lot, I'm sure you have, all of us have probably listening to this. And this was way before the Me Too movement and way before the pandemic, like, know, was burnout, everyone calls it burnout, it's trauma. I'm being honest, it's being talked about more now. At the time, you know, starting to, but not really. And I started to feel like,

Julie Granger (19:51)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (20:01)

there's just something wrong with me. Like, can't, why am I the only one that like sees a problem here? You know, and I knew people around me were unhappy, but no one seemed as like infuriated by it as I was. But honestly, I mean, the pandemic was a tipping point. that was when I kind of started to speak out about this publicly and wrote my first article about this, the fact that I walked away from my career because of

of trauma and burnout and it was just so done. And a lot of physicians and healthcare workers were doing the same. And, you know, I the pandemic, again, it was like, we've all had these catalyst moments in our careers, but for me, it was a big one for a lot of people. It was a big one. yeah, this actually isn't okay anymore. We don't even have masks in the hospital. We're told to like, have cloth one at home. Like, that's not, that's not okay.

Julie Granger (20:49)

No, it's not okay.

One of my friends who is still in ER position, I remember him texting me periodically, right when the pandemic started. And the things he told me that he was being expected, and this is a he by the way, not a woman, that he was being expected to do. like, it was...

Jessica De Jarnette (21:07)

Thank

Julie Granger (21:12)

unfathomable. I didn't even know what to say back as a friend. was just like, I... Do you need me to come pick you up and kidnap you? Because I feel like that's the only way out right now. ⁓ But you brought up so many, okay, first of all, just soundbite moments that I'm like, my gosh, can we dig into that? But obviously we don't have all day, but I just want to highlight them.

Jessica De Jarnette (21:12)

Thank

Yeah.

All right.

Thank

Julie Granger (21:36)

which is healthcare is an industry run by fear. That is something that I also really picked up on early and I'm in a different part of healthcare, but as you said, it's really all very similar and parallel in terms of the journey as the healthcare provider. And I so resonate with like the fear all the way from even studying for tests and even applying to get into school. Like it really starts when you get that first idea.

Jessica De Jarnette (21:59)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (22:02)

that you're going to actually commit to do this thing. And that's where the culture starts because in college you're kind of like, know, like, yeah, I'm going to cram the night before and whatever, it's fine, I'll get there. You still have that freedom and that free spirit and all of that is still alive. And then it just slowly but surely gets squashed and squashed and squashed. And then you add on being a woman or someone who's in a different type of marginalized community or something like that. And it's like even more of that suppression and gaslighting and

all fear-based. And the part, the big irony that you highlighted that I want to repeat is as a resident, as a trainee, you literally indoctrinated to ignore your body.

Jessica De Jarnette (22:41)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (22:44)

What? And

I agree. I'm still learning to tap into my body. I'm still unwinding that 14, 15, 16 years later with help. You know, like I need help because it got so suppressed. And five years into my career, I was like, why am I having panic attacks? I don't know. I don't really understand why this is here. And nobody really understood. They were like, oh, you have everything together. Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (22:51)

Same. ⁓

Right.

I'm little frozen because

I'm

Julie Granger (23:14)

Exactly. And

I love that you said everyone calls it burnout, it's trauma.

Jessica De Jarnette (23:21)

That's my, the hill I will die on is for us to all recognize that. Thanks. We need more people on the hill. Yeah, I, and that's why I literally even call myself a burnout coach because I realize like, there's still this gap of recognition. And I think a lot of it is denial. You know, it's, if you,

Julie Granger (23:26)

I'm gonna be on that hill with you.

Jessica De Jarnette (23:43)

I liken the healthcare career to a toxic marriage often as one of my favorite analogies. you know, anyone who's been in an abusive relationship or partnership, there's a lot of denial for a while, right? Like it typically takes some time and I've been in one. So I've been through this myself and I see the parallels of like,

Julie Granger (24:05)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (24:06)

It took

Julie Granger (24:06)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (24:07)

a lot of instances, a lot of time, a lot of space, lot of like, huh, you know, and friends pointing things out to you. you know, and so for healthcare, I think it's similar. I mean, we've invested so much into a thing to then be like, wow, this thing is really harmful to me. I can't do this thing anymore, right? I mean, it's some cost fallacy, like through and through, like.

That's a huge shock to your system and to your whole life, which is built around this career. know, like leaving ER for me, honestly, the worst part was that was my identity. You I became so wrapped up and I was an ER doctor. You know, I'd spent years facing this goal. And when I stepped away, I had no idea who I was. had no idea what I was. And that was my first

Julie Granger (24:45)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (24:58)

sort of ego death of like, I am not my career. There is more to me. I can never be just one thing. I, know, so many people do this with being a mother, with being a wife, with we have these labels again that we identify with and become who we are. But then that thing, you know, I want some other always another, but when your kids grow up, move out of the house, you know,

Julie Granger (25:04)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (25:26)

What are you then? And it's, you know, it was this recognition of like, I can't put all of my eggs in one basket, but I can never like make one thing of who I truly am. And that was the start of my journey to like figuring out all the parts of me. And you know, my career is so much of who I am and it's one of my top purposes in this life, but it will never be my whole story. And that's when I really started to separate myself from what I do in the world.

Julie Granger (25:49)

Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (25:52)

Because before that they were completely enmeshed and it was so shocking to step away from that.

Julie Granger (25:58)

enmeshment. That's in the abusive relationship language, codependency, exactly. I think it was, was it the last podcast episode I released yesterday? I used that exact metaphor where I was talking about, I think the title of it is Outgrowing the White Coat. And I was like, here's the thing. I mean, you can.

Jessica De Jarnette (25:59)

We were caught again.

Hmm.

Yeah

Julie Granger (26:20)

go get a certification as a coach or start calling yourself a somatic healer, whatever you want to do. When you clue in to there's something else. And the thing that when I help people make that transition career-wise, they will hold on with white knuckles to the health care practices, beliefs, et cetera, because it's become their identity, like you said. And that's housed in our nervous system. And if you don't do that work,

Jessica De Jarnette (26:36)

Thank you.

Julie Granger (26:45)

then you can't seamlessly make that transition. It's just not seamless anyway, but it's just not going to... You're not gonna get to the other side because there's always gonna be this one foot in the door over here in the codependent relationship.

Jessica De Jarnette (27:00)

Yeah, and another thing, 100%, but I think something that's not talked about enough is the financial implications, right? And this is what I found is what keeps a lot of people stuck is the financial dependency on a certain salary, right? And that's often because of student loans. mean, myself included, so.

Julie Granger (27:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

same.

Jessica De Jarnette (27:21)

I

want to say my number of what I still owe in student loan debt, most of us graduate with six figures. It's the second mortgage, right? And so it is a feudal system in a way that you're working for this system that has created a dependency on it to make this number salary. So even a lot of my clients have been the breadwinners of their family. And so I can't quit because...

Julie Granger (27:44)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (27:46)

I have this, these are my bills, this is what I make, I have to make this to pay my bills, you know, and if it comes in numbers game, and so there's so many people that wanna leave medicine but feel really trapped financially, and that to me is the saddest part because, you know, the financial stuff is really real, and I don't think we talk about it enough as like a reason people stay stuck.

Julie Granger (28:10)

I think that on the hierarchy of needs, financial is just one rung above food, water, the very basic needs. And if you don't have that resource or the perception of the resource, which is the same to the nervous system, whether it's actually there or you perceive it's there, you won't go. You're right. And I think, especially for women, we've been cultured not to talk about finances. And especially the woman who's the breadwinner of the family, that's its own black sheep.

Jessica De Jarnette (28:18)

Right.

Yeah.

Julie Granger (28:37)

in our culture, although it's becoming more common.

And I think it's definitely OK to say, here's why I'm stuck here. And literally, quite literally indebted to this profession, and I don't see another way out. And it's not always about the pride of the paycheck, like, I don't want to make less money. There's a literal need there. And I think that a lot of times there's shame there because

Jessica De Jarnette (28:53)

Nice.

Julie Granger (29:01)

Maybe I hear this from my own clients too. Well, I don't want to change my lifestyle. Like I put my kids in private school. I have that privilege. I have the ability to do that and also pay my second mortgage for my loans. And the second mortgage for the loans is still going to be there. And am I going to turn my kid's life upside down in order to change mine?

Jessica De Jarnette (29:07)

Mm-hmm.

and

Mm-hmm.

Right.

No, it's a really hard choice often. And, you know, it's, it can be hard to that I find is the trap. That's the hardest for people to get out of is the financial and there's always a way but it can require some sacrifice. so, you know, I, one of my favorite like sayings and this came up for me in a medicine ceremony last summer was

Julie Granger (29:23)

hard.

Yep. Yep.

Jessica De Jarnette (29:47)

you know, in every situation there's a choice, right? And so you just have to make your choice. And even if it's not your ideal, like sometimes it's just for a little while or, you you know, there's an in, like when I made the choice to leave ER, I was probably a little over halfway through my intern year. I think I was seven, eight months in. I knew I wanted to finish the year, but I knew I was leaving in July.

Julie Granger (29:58)

you ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (30:11)

strength of that decision, even though it was months away, it was probably February when I decided, I was able to get to that finish line, because I knew there was a line. I gave myself a deadline. often if we do that, say, okay, I'm gonna do this for another year. And then that year I'm gonna like prep for my next phase, or I'm gonna save money or whatever it is. Like that often can give us the strength to get there versus being stuck in the purgatory of like,

Julie Granger (30:20)

You had an out.

Jessica De Jarnette (30:39)

indecision, I don't know, you know, that's a horrible place to be and a lot of people never get out of that. And so setting a deadline for yourself, even if it's months, years in the future can be really, really helpful.

Julie Granger (30:47)

Yeah.

I love this because it's the functional freeze state of the nervous system that you're letting yourself have some freedom from. You're creating that doorway to actually get out of the freeze and flee, which is a much more healthy response. And I also love it because you're just going to stay there if you feel frozen and helpless. There's no option. And I love this. There's always a choice.

Jessica De Jarnette (31:11)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (31:15)

There's always a choice. And like you said, sometimes it might require some sacrifice. And I love what you said about, it also might require you to remind yourself that everything is temporary or it can be temporary. I can endure this pain for three, four, five more months, a year, whatever it is. And just creating that out, that doorway, I think for a lot of women who otherwise wouldn't, can, not that we have control over what the universe decides,

Jessica De Jarnette (31:25)

Wow.

Right.

Julie Granger (31:42)

But it can prevent the universe pushing you out in some way that's very unpleasant. Making the decision for you, like, well, you're going to go whether you like it or not because I'm going to give you this disease or someone in your life is going to pass or some tragedy that forces you out.

Jessica De Jarnette (31:55)

Anyway.

Yeah, I've

had that. you know, my my health crises were some of mine where it was the universe like, hey, wake up, you know, like you're not on your path. Like, let's go, you know, and I truly think

Julie Granger (32:04)

you

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (32:13)

these things happen for reason that I was sort of forced to make a change that I wouldn't have otherwise. Because we got, I've heard the term comfortably numb. You know, we get sort of in this steady state of like, we're not happy, we're not fulfilled, but we're fine, you know, and we can survive. And we say that every year, you know, we say, I'll show retirement. You know, and I,

Julie Granger (32:17)

Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (32:37)

Two of my co-residents have passed, unfortunately, in really sad ways at a young age. One of an aggressive cancer and the other in a car accident. you know, those were some of my catalysts of like, we're not all going to make it to retirement, guys. Like, nobody's guaranteed that, right? And I see so many people and health care providers particularly like putting off their dreams and goals and everything until retirement.

Julie Granger (32:43)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (33:02)

or I'm gonna retire early, you know? And that's fine if that's what you wanna do, but you know, it is a bit cliche, but we never know when our last day's gonna be, right? And so that is kinda how I've always lived my life. And honestly, the best advice I ever got, I remember as a, story just popped up in my head, but I was 14 and my family went to Alaska one summer and we'd never been.

on like a trip anywhere except Florida. You know, we would go around the southeast, but every summer it was like the beach in Florida. And one summer my parents were like, we're going to Alaska. My brother and I threw huge fits and we're like, what? No. Like we just thought of like cold and bears and you know, we were sun people, like not snow people at that age. Now I love the snow, but.

Julie Granger (33:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (33:48)

We go to Alaska, it was mind blowing, right? Like it was the most beautiful place. I remember I was in awe the entire time. So grateful to my parents for seeing us. And I think that's the trip I fell in love with the West Coast or the West. It was like, I gotta live here, you know? And we were at this resort and I met this gentleman who worked there. I was walking around, I borrowed, my dad's camera. I got really into photography on that trip as well. I was just walking around taking photos and.

Julie Granger (34:02)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (34:16)

He was a really nice gentleman. He was a summer worker. He had been a teacher in Boston and had a family and they just decided they were gonna do seasonal work. And so they kind of opt and move to Alaska and then they're gonna go somewhere else for the winter. And he was telling me, was like, I see so I didn't even know how this conversation started, but it has stuck in my brain for 25 years, whatever.

But he was like, I see so many people come here on their retirement trips and cruises and they come on the buses and then they can't enjoy it for what it is. Their health is too poor. They can't hike anymore. They just get herded around like cattle. he's like, I forget the exact wording, but he basically was like, you got to enjoy the world while you can.

you have your health. You know and that was like such an inspirational moment from the stranger that really shaped my life. Like I spent so much of my 20s and early 30s traveling, nomading. You know do a lot less now but I took that heart and I did enjoy the shit out of my travel and my time. ⁓

Julie Granger (35:28)

Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (35:28)

No,

and I spent every dollar I had, you know, a lot of my friends are saving for homes and I was off traveling the world, you know, but I'm so glad I sort of live my life in reverse because I don't. If I die tomorrow, like I know there's still places I want to go. There's still things I want to do, but I have like satisfied my itch of exploring, right. And as a young person with good health, you know, and so.

Julie Granger (35:46)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (35:55)

For me, that advice was the best advice I ever got.

Julie Granger (36:00)

That is probably the best advice you can get. I

agree. I feel like I just love this story so much. First of all, I really want to go to Alaska and not when I'm in retirement, assuming I make it there. And it's just reminding me of my husband who is, of the two of us, probably the one with the most wanderlust. Just always dreaming of trips, always designing trips, even if he doesn't go on them.

Jessica De Jarnette (36:09)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Julie Granger (36:22)

sometimes feeling really down when he doesn't take the trips, like when he's designed them. And I think like I am the homebody. I know that's in my human design as well. I am the homebody. I love travel, but it's definitely right out of my comfort zone. And he has been the one who's inspired me to follow that advice, which is go now, go now, let's explore. And I think that, you know,

Jessica De Jarnette (36:22)

love.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (36:44)

years and years of doing that has helped me really realize that the time is now for sure. There's no let's wait. mean, sometimes there are times that are let's wait, but you got to have a real good reason to put it off. And it's not always financial. Sometimes you got to suck it up and spend the money and you'll find out the reason why it was worth it when you get there, but you have to go. Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (36:52)

Yeah.

That's

Alright.

Julie Granger (37:07)

So beautiful.

OK, this is a great segue into your life as a nomad. I think this is such a beautiful part of you that you don't always put together with the physician figure who worked in a hospital and all of that. And I love this because I think this is like the doorway to all the magical parts of you as well, which is all of that. So tell us about what it's like to find yourself with nomading.

Jessica De Jarnette (37:10)

Please come on down.

Julie Granger (37:33)

verb and how that's really helped you reconnect to your purpose.

Jessica De Jarnette (37:34)

Bye! ⁓

Yeah, I mean, again, going back to childhood, I was, I wanted to be an explorer, know, like National Geographic was my favorite publication. would, parents and grandparents got it and I would just pour through every issue, just like soaking it in. And I grew up watching Marty Stover's Wild America, nature documentaries. I was just like fascinated by the world and cultures and I didn't just want to go see, I wanted to be in it. I wanted to.

understand, you know, and that's why I global health, because I really loved learning about, you know, the different, like, societal factors and social factors that make us do what we do or cause us to have certain diseases. you know, I didn't travel much like in college, like my first big trip, I did a Maymester study abroad in Costa Rica for a month and Costa Rica has been

Julie Granger (38:07)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (38:27)

You know, one of my favorite countries since that I've gone back to now so many times. it feels like a second home in a way, cause it was my first international trip. was my first long trip. I went, you know, with a group from my college, but I didn't know anyone. I was solo if you will, it was 19 and, it was life changing, you know, and I fell in love with jungles on that trip. It was an ecology trips. We were like mostly in.

Julie Granger (38:34)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (38:52)

you know, super remote places, getting eaten alive by every insect ever. And, you know, I grew to love adventure travels. I really wanted to go to the off the beaten path places. You know, I was not a fancy traveler at all. I did my master's thesis in Borneo, Indonesia, Borneo, and was there a couple of months. Indonesia, also one of my favorite countries and

Julie Granger (38:58)

Hehehe.

Jessica De Jarnette (39:16)

Yeah, the tropics really drew me, you know, because of the global health piece. I was at the time really into infectious diseases and that was my major and, you know, I did some work in the malaria sector and yeah, just I loved my family. I love the US, but at the same time, it was just like, there's so much out there.

can someone live in one place? And a lot of it was also just following my soul and my intuition. So when I left ER, my year of residency was in DC. I took a job in Madagascar, which is probably the farthest away place you can get from East Coast. Maybe Antarctica is a little further. And I was there for a year.

Julie Granger (39:38)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (40:02)

That year was one of the most difficult in my life. It pushed me in ways I didn't know I could be pushed professionally, personally. But it was so good for me. It really was the best thing ever in being just pushed out of the nest. Because that was the year after I got CPR. And so I told you I didn't have a plan.

Julie Granger (40:19)

Hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (40:23)

And so my plan became, okay, I want to go work overseas and I'll figure it out out there. You know, and my path has always been, what is the next best step? You know, think Laura has said that before, but I've often not known an outcome or exactly where I'm going, but I know where I'm being led, you know, for my skiers out there.

Julie Granger (40:35)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (40:50)

I love skiing, it's just my favorite. You know, it's like you're carving your fresh tracks down a mountain and you're just, you have to adjust as you go and you're going down the mountain, you know you are, but you're having fun along the way, there's gonna be bumps, you might run into a tree or two or take some falls, but you you're going down the mountain. And so for me, it's always been about following.

Julie Granger (40:57)

Hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (41:14)

my soul and where my soul is leading me and not, and that urge and sort of trust has grown with age and time. And, you know, when I was younger, I was kind of afraid what other people thought, you know, I moved so much and then it just seemed they can't settle down, but there was a reason for that. It's just how I'm, and I, as I've aged and where I am now, I definitely have settled a lot more, you know, and

Julie Granger (41:33)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (41:40)

Um, I'm grown to love being stationary. You know, it's helped provide a lot of rooting for me and getting my work done and sharing my creative work with the world, you know. Um, but at the same time, I do need to keep moving in a lot of ways because if I stay stuck too long, I get stagnant, you know, I turn into a swamp. The water needs to keep flowing. So.

Julie Granger (41:47)

Mm-hmm.

that's a great metaphor, the swamp. I was picturing this tree. Like you're rooted, but you branch out. But it's almost like if you stay too rooted, the roots can get root rot, you know, like too much water, like stagnant water, all of that. The water's got to move, the tree's got to branch out, all the things. Of course,

Jessica De Jarnette (42:14)

Yeah.

That's just how I made,

you know, everyone is wired differently and ⁓ it took a long time for me to accept that about myself. Like I thought there was something really wrong with me for many years. Now I totally am like, no, this is just me. Like I'm just not, you know, and I've met others like me. I think this helps, you know, I've met other nomads. I've met...

Julie Granger (42:25)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

I hear you.

Jessica De Jarnette (42:45)

San Francisco is a very transient city. So many people go here all the time. And so that's been really helpful of like, okay, it's not just me. It's culturally where I'm from. This is not very common, but many parts of the world, and especially now digital nomading is a thing. It's quite common. And so I don't feel like such a freak anymore. So I did once upon a time.

Julie Granger (42:48)

Mm-hmm.

love that part of that is you've grown into yourself and you've just really found that intuition. Not that it wasn't ever there, but like you've rooted into it as your true soul guide and your compass point. I love the part about, often don't know where I'm going, but I know I'm being led. Beautiful. Okay. So here's where I want to contrast that with what you said about healthcare, which is

Jessica De Jarnette (43:33)

Hmm.

Julie Granger (43:34)

from the very beginning, which is it's rooted in fear. Whereas I don't know where I'm going, but I know I'm being led is the 180 antithesis of that. tell us what, how, OK, or give us a story, whatever feels right to you, about bridging that for yourself first. Ongoing from rigid boxes, rules, fear, don't fail, don't eat.

Don't trust your body at all. Don't listen to it. Back to my soul is leading me while still allowing yourself some containers and boxes so that you don't get too swept off the path and train track.

Jessica De Jarnette (44:01)

you.

I would say a lot of it has been aging, honestly, like having enough life experience, you know, crossing that 40 threshold and looking back and seeing all the situations. Oh, like that's why this happened and it all ended up okay. At the time it was terrible, but like there was a reason. And, you know, taking those leaps of faith, like leaving ER.

Julie Granger (44:26)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (44:31)

When I left my role in primary care during the pandemic and sailed to Baja, I also didn't have a backup plan. I had a little money stashed for a few months, but I couldn't survive a year on that. But I didn't know what I was doing next, but I knew I couldn't stay where I was. And so the phrase leap in the net will appear. That has been very true for me.

every time I've done it, the universe has gifted me an incredible opportunity or a good situation. And there's been a lot of painful falls along the way too. Life is for learning and it's all lessons, right? And so I really try to not see things as failures anymore of just like, I should have made a different decision there or I could have, I didn't.

Julie Granger (44:56)

Mm.

Jessica De Jarnette (45:19)

now I have this situation I need to deal with. That was a good lesson for me. And my intuition has rarely been wrong, I would say, in that, you know, it's always led me where I needed to go. Sometimes that was a painful lesson. You know, it's, we've become like this. Yeah, I mean, not that you shouldn't take advice from other people, but I think,

Julie Granger (45:20)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you're right.

Jessica De Jarnette (45:44)

Other people are not you and you do have to look at who you take your advice from. I often say, unless it's someone you really respect and admire, if this is someone you wanna emulate or their life path is similar to yours, why would you take their advice? I think we often take advice from the wrong sources and don't listen to ourselves.

Like we should. And so for me, it's really been perspective of like years of looking back and thinking, oh, wow, okay. You know, it's like getting to the end of a book and you're like, wow, that makes sense now. But when I was in the middle of the book, necessarily like a really good mystery, if you will, like, no, who didn't? So you get to the end, you know, and so yeah, this new chapter I'm on is a very different one than I'm used to.

Julie Granger (46:15)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (46:31)

a much more disciplined one, a much more very work focused one than I was the last five to 10 years, which had been a lot more about play and healing. And now it's very much turned to my work again. So yeah, I see it as chapters too, know, in seasons of life and not, you know, it's always evolving and changing. And, you know, the season I'm in now is very different than the one I was before. They're both beautiful.

but got a little off tangent there, I think, from the original question.

Julie Granger (47:00)

We always get on tangents. That's exactly what's so beautiful about it. And

this happens in every episode with everyone I'm interviewing, which is part and parcel because that's why I invited you. But those tangents are usually the place where you are illustrating the sink and the swim. That's the name of the podcast. And I always like to point it out because whoever's listening, you didn't shy away from the sink. You went from, for a very short period of your life,

Jessica De Jarnette (47:16)

You

racist

things.

Julie Granger (47:25)

Treading water, paddling furiously to stay afloat,

and ignoring everything below the surface, because that's what you were trained to do. And you were uniquely wired to ignore. That achiever part is like, OK, whatever I got to do. And you had a really hard situation that forced you. Well, you chose. You had the choice, like you said, to sink and be like, nope, I'm not doing this anymore. We're going to take a 90 degree turn and go this direction. And part of that 90 degree turn was

Jessica De Jarnette (47:31)

Thanks, wow.

Julie Granger (47:51)

burning it all down, traveling for a bit, doing what you needed to do to allow yourself to sink, which is just, you have sank so many times. And then you've risen and swum, and now you're swimming and it looks maybe on the surface, on paper, right? Similar to that very first career move. And yet it's so different. And I think that's such a powerful lesson for women in healthcare.

Jessica De Jarnette (47:57)

I have synced so many times. So I'm in.

Julie Granger (48:16)

back to our original conversation of, yep, there might be some zigzagging and twists and turns to get back to where you are now. And if you can create the resource and the safety to leap, the net will appear as long as you can trust your intuition, get some support, all you need to do for that. And then, lo and behold, it might look the same, but you come at it with a completely different energy.

Jessica De Jarnette (48:39)

Life is a spiral. It's not a line. We revisit the same lessons again and again and again. And I take all of us, my personal beliefs, so we all have different karma and different life paths and lessons that will keep being presented to us in different ways. I know I do. And each time I'm met with the same lesson, I'm coming at it with a new perspective or there's a new angle that I need to learn.

Julie Granger (48:42)

Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (49:04)

and I used to get really frustrated. I'm like, wow, I'm here again, you know, but now I see it as, oh, okay, I've been here before. What's different this time? You know, and how can I be different this time? Well, I'm going through something right now that I've been through before many times, you know, and there's some frustration there, but it's like learning to sit with that, learning to...

Julie Granger (49:15)

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (49:30)

you know, frustration is my not self-theven human design and my, when I know, you know, something is getting to me, the frustration comes first, I think for many of us. And so that's my cue of like, what's going on here? You know, what was the lesson? so it reminds me, the guy that wrote the book, Mark Manson, I think, the Give No Fucks guy.

Julie Granger (49:38)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (49:51)

I'll just follow, do remember? He, I think, was on a podcast or YouTube or something I saw and he was talking about the sinking and I didn't realize this, but Navy SEAL training, they, you know, they do a lot of crazy things, but one of them is being tied up in a pool. I don't know if you've seen this before, but they tie their hands behind their back and maybe bind their feet too. Although I can't, I they bind their feet too.

Julie Granger (49:51)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (50:17)

and they're supposed to last in this pool for like 20 minutes or something crazy and they basically like have to sink to the bottom they hold their breath sink all the way down it's a deep pool too it's not like six feet here um and they push off the bottom and they kind of worm their way up to the top and they're able to like take a breath or pause and they sink back down and this is how they survive right this

Julie Granger (50:32)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (50:46)

brutal training exercise that I know I would drown in. You watch this video of them doing this and it's like, yeah, this is what it's like when you say crate. Like you have to let yourself get to that bottom place to have the strength to like rise back up.

Julie Granger (50:51)

I'm already feeling anxious just hearing it as a swimmer. God, that's my worst fear.

Yes, yes.

Jessica De Jarnette (51:10)

I have had so many rock bottoms in my life, like I can't even count, honestly, but now I know like when that is coming or when that happens, I'm like, okay, now I my strength. Now I can propel forward, you know, and I don't fear it like I used to. used to, you know, I had a therapist point out to me once like, you really catastrophize, like things start going wrong and you just spiral.

I do. Like the sky is falling. my God. You know, and now I'm like, okay, okay, we can do this. We'll push off again. Now we can survive. And so that has been, I love the metaphor, the training exercise. And when I heard the name of your podcast, was the first thing that popped in my mind was the Navy SEALs.

Julie Granger (51:39)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Exactly it.

Yes. I've heard of this training exercise before. And what you just described is exactly months and months and months of me swirling this concept around and trying to give it words that were tangible and understandable. And as a swimmer, as my background, it was just perfect, obviously. But it was deeper than that, obviously. And I think that what you said about resisting the sink

Jessica De Jarnette (52:10)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (52:17)

catastrophizing is one way of resisting, is that is the journey that is learned only with experience. Because as your system starts to feel that it is sinking, of course it's going to resist it. That's its job. And the more you can learn how to regulate into the sink and stay there instead of resisting it and allow it, it's not just like, OK, I'm just going to lay here and take it. It's fine.

That's not what we're saying. Surrender is very different. There can still be some very healthy fight responses and all those types of things that come in. easier is not the word. The more seamless, the more fluid it is to reach the bottom and not necessarily bounce right back up. But like you said, worm your way back up. It's not always easy on the climb out either. You can sink back down if you don't have the right balance of effort and trust.

Jessica De Jarnette (52:58)

Yeah. Yeah. No, Right.

Julie Granger (53:07)

So with that, think your story is such a beautiful example of that. So thank you for sharing it. And with it, think that coming back to this place where you're in perhaps a swimming phase while there's still some sinking going on, you've now co-founded a startup. You are helping women who are burned out in health care. You are navigating the challenges that come along with that and being a wild and intense being.

Jessica De Jarnette (53:13)

Love.

Julie Granger (53:32)

which are my people as well. So tell us about all that, you know, embracing your human design, all the things.

Jessica De Jarnette (53:39)

man, of course. when I so starting the pandemic, I mentioned, you know, I left my my role that I had been in for about two years. I went on this beautiful walkabout. I call it my walkabout. I set to Baja. I was there for six months. And then I was in Seattle in the Pacific Northwest for six months.

And then I did a solo road trip, just my dog and I, around the deserts in the American West for six months, a little over. So about 18 months of just journeying. And I was working. I had gotten a job in public health. So back to my sort of roots there. And I was gathering. That was my gathering phase of like, you know, what is next? Because I knew I was not.

Julie Granger (54:06)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (54:23)

I never wanted to be one thing, right? Like we've made that clear. But I knew just being a primary care doctor in XYZ clinic was not my path, was never my path. I love primary care, I do family medicine, but I always have been obsessed with systems and how to create system change and seeing broad population level, you know.

Julie Granger (54:42)

Mmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (54:46)

problems and working on those. That's what really has driven me the most in my career. And, you know, the problem with seeing problems is there's so many. started in order to start. And so for me, as I was taking this time, you know, at first I thought I wanted to go back into public health and I did really enjoy my time. worked for the state of California and I enjoyed my time in that role.

Julie Granger (54:54)

Yes.

Jessica De Jarnette (55:07)

But I was starting to see, you know, I've done a lot of advocacy and policy work in my career, but I realize the US healthcare system to me feels like the Titanic. You know, it's this giant, massive, complex ship that is sinking, unfortunately. And I don't say that lightly. That's something I think a lot about, you know, and I realize in...

Julie Granger (55:24)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (55:30)

my work that I felt like I was trying to fix something that can't be fixed in any real way. Like we talk about healthcare reform and there's lots of good effort being done and not saying that nothing is worthwhile, right? But from my perspective and my experience, we can spend time fixing the sinking ship, which is probably going to sink anyway, or

Create new ships. know, and it was a very slow realization for me, but a big one in that I want to be part of something new, something different, because I don't think, you know, our healthcare system is designed to serve people, you know, with trauma, with chronic conditions in a way that, you know, is meaningful.

you know, a system that perpetuates trauma and its workers cannot claim to heal it, right? And, you we've known for decades, if not longer, that trauma is the root cause of chronic health conditions, like period hands down, right? Anyone go ask Chow GPT right now, just ask it that question. What is the number one root cause of chronic health conditions? it's, the research is, and the data is so clear. And anyone that works in healthcare,

Julie Granger (56:26)

Amen.

Mm.

Jessica De Jarnette (56:46)

can like 100 % that say this with certainty as well. However, it's not anyone's fault that our system is not designed, like it cannot treat trauma because it's not set up to, right? And so just like you're not gonna ask your mechanic to fix your roof, we can't ask our healthcare system to heal our trauma. It's just not designed for that. so this became...

Julie Granger (56:58)

Yeah. Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (57:13)

super clear to me and so I had gotten so much help from coaches, you know, as I was going through this phase of transformation and I fell in love with coaching and I realized I'm really a coach at heart actually, like kind of what I've been trying to do my whole career but you know, really hard to do in 15 minute patient visits and so I did coaching training.

Julie Granger (57:32)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (57:38)

And I started working with people and I realized people weren't really changing like I hoped they would, or thought they might, right? You know, I was doing all my tricks. And around this time was when I realized, you know, I had my own trauma that had kept me stuck. And so I realized, okay, trauma is also what keeps people frozen and stuck in situations that they don't want to be in.

they're too afraid to take the lead because you like you said the functional freeze state and so then I really did start doing deep dives into trauma healing both for my own benefit and to help clients and so I was working with healthcare workers loving that and then I met my co-founder randomly of our startup Catford at a lunch I was not looking for more work I had a

pretty bad taste in my mouth, to be honest, of healthcare startups living in the Bay and I worked for two of them. ⁓ Seen some pretty gross stuff, you know, being here for so many years and I was just kind of tired of the rhetoric of, you know, disrupting healthcare, blah, blah. I can be a bit of a cynic, but you know, I just was like, I've heard it all, I've seen it all, like no. But she was different.

Julie Granger (58:27)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (58:46)

You know, and as she, as I heard her vision and she had already actually started the company, but she was looking for a medical counterpart and everything she was describing was like the same visions I had. You know, but I knew of like creating a new system for people, a new like platform for people looking for help. How do I recover from trauma? Like, where do I start? Who do I talk to? Like,

Julie Granger (59:13)

Yes. Yes.

Jessica De Jarnette (59:13)

There's so much overwhelm

in your beginning that journey of like, where do I even begin? There's so many options. Like, what do I do next? And, you know, it was this vision I'd had, but I knew I could not do this myself. It was just too big, you know, much, too outside of my comfort zone and my strength set, honestly, my skill set.

Julie Granger (59:35)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (59:37)

As I started to work with her and our team, mean, there's six of us on the founding team and, um, you know, we all bring such different skills to the team and it's this beautiful ecosystem of like, everybody is playing a role and pushing each other and working together, collaborating. It's been a little over a year now and it's been such a journey. mean, any startup entertaining is a lot, but it's been.

Julie Granger (1:00:06)

Right.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:00:06)

You know, and we've had huge traction and getting new clients all the time and we're learning. We tell clients, we're co-creating this with you. We're really in the learning stage of what people need and versus just what we think. And AI has played a huge role. So AI, not to go off on that tangent, but has been so massive.

Julie Granger (1:00:21)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:00:34)

in changing, I think, all things in our society, but in healthcare, it's huge. And so it has been the most beautiful and unexpected part of my journey. And it's been hard. I mean, I had a really hard decision. Like, do I do this thing knowing it will take some time away from my other roles? Might slow down, you know, my progression in a way, or, you know, do I say no?

Julie Granger (1:00:38)

Yeah, agree.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:00:59)

and just focus on what I was doing before. That's where that intuition came in of like, no, this is aligned. Like this is part of my path. It's like helping get this thing off the ground. You know, it's been challenging for sure. Like I have worked harder in the past year. I think that I've worked since I was a resident, you know, and it's, but it's been so beautiful and so rewarding and

Again, that season of life, I know it's not forever that I'll have three jobs. For now, you know, it's where I am and it's wonderful. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be honest. I'm loving, mean, we're part of a new sort of what we call the direct to consumer movement in healthcare. We have a lot of people realizing, okay, insurance is not paying for anything. I can't see my doctor. You know, a lot of people are just done and are like starting to.

Julie Granger (1:01:27)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:01:50)

take their health more into their own hands. Like function health is a perfect example of that. You know, Dr. Hatt's company and people paying out of pocket, but to get all the labs they want, you know, it's been amazing. And I am all for empowering people to democratize their healing, right? And we always say the CEO of your own health. ⁓ And so, yeah, I've loved every second. It's been...

Julie Granger (1:02:00)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amen.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:02:16)

the most challenging year professionally, I think. But it's been so beautiful and I'm so excited for what's to come.

Julie Granger (1:02:22)

Awesome. It comes as no surprise to me that you currently have three jobs, being a manifesting generator who's interested in everything and who just lets your soul lead you. And it's such a parallel, like I said, but it's also a stark contrast to carrying all the things you were carrying early in your career, all your interests, all your things, because you've built your capacity to carry it. And maybe you will.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:02:33)

.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (1:02:49)

transition into two jobs or one or stay with three. Who knows? I doubt you're going to stay there too long because you'll get stagnant and you'll get root rot. That's just how we are as manifesting generators. I'm one too. And like you, I've gotten to where I no longer resist the sink, where I'm like, uh-oh, it's time to move. And I guess I'm done with that chapter. And it's going to probably unveil some deep

things to heal. So I guess I'm just going to go for it and trust that it's not going to be this horrible thing because on the other side, it often looks really similar to what it was, but there's a new layer of unveiling that has created more capacity. So beautiful story.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:03:28)

Holy, yeah. No, yeah,

it's so beautiful. And yeah, not for everyone. And I think, you know, again, with the focusing piece, I can't work on everything every day. So I really have learned, you know, I'm learning a lot about time management and productivity, getting my chunks, you know, learning how you work best, what type of work to do when, you know, when I can do my meetings, when I need my solo admin focus time, you know.

Julie Granger (1:03:46)

Yes.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:03:56)

So, yeah. All those R's.

Julie Granger (1:03:56)

So entrepreneur. I'm going to butcher that word. We know where I'm going with it. Entrepreneurial. Yes. Using ours.

Well, thank you for sharing that. I think giving our audience just, I think that one thing that's difficult when you're at a starting phase of the sink is the vision, like what's possible. And I love how you highlighted, like, why would you take advice from someone else?

It's not advice that we're offering. We're offering like a vision of like just a starting point for possibility. Like this is in the genre of what could be possible for you. You have to envision and create your own and showing hope so that when you are approaching that sink phase or walking away from something or leaping, whatever it looks like, then there's this opportunity to go, okay, if she's gone through the dark depths.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:04:34)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:04:45)

and she's come out on the other side and she's smiling and breathing and she's okay, then maybe it will work for me too. Maybe, not sure. Jury's out, but we'll see. It's so scary.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:04:49)

Hahaha

That's so scary, you know, but it's

also, I there's always a lesson like we talked about, like really leaning into that, leaning on friends for support. You know, had a moment a few months ago, I was on a trip with my best girlfriends and I had a total breakdown with them or I just cried and

sort of showed my pain that I've been carrying for a while that we all live in different cities. So we talk a lot, but had not seen each other in a while altogether. And they just literally held me like a baby. And then everyone started crying and like sharing, you know, it was the first time I'd let myself have that sort of emotional release, even the people I'm closest with, you know.

Julie Granger (1:05:41)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:05:41)

It was what I needed so much, you know, and so really leaning into your community and the people you love, trust, support you, know that we'll be there. It's so crucial. You know, you don't need to go through those dark times alone.

Julie Granger (1:05:54)

Exactly. I think that we're supposed to heal in community. That's how we're designed, right?

Jessica De Jarnette (1:05:59)

100%. A wise man

once told me that grief is a social emotion. can't be felt alone. And I always think about that because it is very true. You really need other people to witness you sometimes. And I think that's what that's the key piece of trauma healing is that I learned you can't do it all yourself, right? Because I try to do everything myself. I'm very hyper independent. And you really do need

some type of support, whether that's a therapist, your partner, trying to not offload everything on your partner, but having that system of support is like what is the key unlock, think.

Julie Granger (1:06:26)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, 100%. And someone who can really see you, all of you, and hold all of you. It's sometimes a unicorn to find. I find that for me, it's a unicorn to find someone who's not going to pathologize your intensity or your eccentricities or your nuance or something like that. And making sure that those vulnerable parts of you are really held and seen in a safe way is just as important as.

every other part of this process we've been talking about. Okay, we're gonna take a bit of a 90 degree turn here from the deep and profound, which is, as I mentioned, this is just how we roll, to something a little bit more light and fun. This is how we conclude all of the episodes, which is the lightning round. All right, I have five questions for you. They are, gimme your gut response, know, whatever comes to mind first.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:07:06)

Okay.

Okay, I'm Okay.

Julie Granger (1:07:24)

All right, number one, if you could be any animal other than a human, what would it be and why?

Jessica De Jarnette (1:07:29)

Ooh, that was an easy one. A hawk. I always want to fly. I love birds. And I love just their focus and, you know, intensity. I think they're so beautiful. Their precision, you know, how they fly. They pounce when they need to. You know, the patience. Such patience there. And just the bird's eye view of everything, I think, really summarizes how I see the world.

Julie Granger (1:07:34)

Mm-hmm.

right?

Mm-hmm. Like a hawk. Love that.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:07:54)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:07:57)

All right, thank you for that one. Jess is going to be a hawk. Number two, if you could get a drink with two people, dead or alive, mysterious, real, or imaginary, who would they be and why?

Jessica De Jarnette (1:08:00)

Thank you.

Yeah.

man. So there's this, this is so random, but there's this female pirate. She's Chinese. I forget her name, but I'm fascinated by her story. Just look up female Chinese pirate. will find her. I'm like, why hasn't this been a movie yet? Hopefully it will be one day, but she sounds like a fascinating character.

Julie Granger (1:08:28)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:08:29)

when she was active, but I think she was one of the most successful pirates in history. However you define that, love to chat with her. I think Gloria Steinem, I love Gloria Steinem and you know, she's aging, but she's still so brilliant and she's a nomad, fellow nomad. I've read her memoir and just love her. So those two.

Julie Granger (1:08:48)

Hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:08:48)

Lady pirate in forest time.

Julie Granger (1:08:51)

That sounds correct. I feel like this is a good summary right here. Amazing.

I need to put Gloria Steinem's memoir on my list. So thank you for mentioning that. OK, number three. Does pineapple belong on pizza?

Jessica De Jarnette (1:09:03)

I'd say it's a good occasional treat. Not an everyday pizza. Like a bite or two, but then I'm over it.

Julie Granger (1:09:07)

Awesome. You're the first person who gave me a nuanced answer. Well, maybe. Depends. Love this. Okay. Love

that. Number four. I am a fly on the wall on an average Friday night for you. What do I see you doing? Great.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:09:26)

Probably working.

Yeah, Fridays are chill. Saturday is a good story, Fridays I usually decompress. Maybe have a dinner party with friends. Yeah, it's usually my let go of the week, meet, get good sleep, wake up early Saturday, ready to conquer. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:09:32)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, love that. Amazing. All right, number five, last one. What is a hidden pleasure or obsession of yours that people might find surprising, weird, quirky, or questionable?

Jessica De Jarnette (1:09:54)

Oh man, I'm gonna get really, really raw here. I have a bit of an addiction to tarot readings on YouTube.

I really need to stop but I just love them and no one knows this about me. It is definitely a secret. Not anymore I guess but yeah I just and it's funny because I've only had one real life terror reading. I love the virtual ones. There's so many characters and they're just so funny. love them. Yeah anyway that's my my secret secret pleasure. No one will ever see my YouTube algorithm.

Julie Granger (1:10:18)

Mm-hmm.

They're funny. Yeah.

Amazing.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:10:30)

Thanks.

Julie Granger (1:10:30)

world premiere of your

secret pleasure. Love this. Breaking news. Thank you for sharing that. Well, thank you for the lightning round questions. What do you want us to share about what's coming up for you? What do you want people to click on? Go read about, join, all the things. Tell us that kind of stuff.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:10:32)

Yeah.

in

man, something that came up for me yesterday, I think one of the questions you'd asked was one thing I would share with ambitious women. for me, my number one superpower, and I think the greatest skill we can all have is knowing when to walk away, knowing when to quit. And there's a really great book, it's kind of aged a little now, but by Seth Godin called The Dip. It written in 2007.

To be frank, I haven't read the whole thing. listened to the summary on Blinkist, but basically, he talks about knowing when to quit situations. There's always a hard period when you're starting anything new or worthwhile. And knowing the discernment of knowing, okay, is this just a hard period or is this, and he calls them cul-de-sacs. Like, am I just stuck?

Julie Granger (1:11:32)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:11:32)

being a star would

improve or a cliff, something that's great at first, but is eventually going to, you know, end in disaster. Knowing those three scenarios and when to call it quits before you lose too much time or money or Life years, you know, is the best skill you can have. And I have quit so many things in my life. I think I've made it, you know, clear in this episode how many times I've walked away from things that were just

Julie Granger (1:11:38)

Mm-hmm.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:11:59)

not in alignment with me. And it was at first really hard because, you know, often when we quit things, we feel like a failure. We feel like we gave up. But again, life is for learning. And, you know, for many of us, there is not just one path. And so learning when you might have taken a shortcut or a veered off your path that way isn't going anywhere. You've hit a, you know, a cliff or a wall or whatever, a thick jungle.

Time to backtrack, go a different way. And so that would be my takeaway. would say for anyone listening, for anyone early in their career or even later, that I think will serve us all is knowing when to say enough is enough. I'll do something else.

Julie Granger (1:12:39)

Enough's enough. Hopefully not when you're completely on fire, but at the same time, sometimes that is, you said it, I wrote it down. Intuition is never wrong. Sometimes it leads you to painful lessons. Sometimes the fire is actually the painful lesson you needed, like you have so poignantly pointed out. yeah. well, so Mitch Wisdom shared with us today. I will put...

Jessica De Jarnette (1:12:45)

Try them out.

Thank you for your input,

pleasure.

Julie Granger (1:13:02)

I'll put some of this stuff

in the show notes so people will go check you out and all your ventures that you have. Yeah, y'all reach out. All right, thanks for being here.

Jessica De Jarnette (1:13:06)

No, please come back.

Yeah, I'd love to connect, so please reach out.

Thank you. Happy day.

Julie Granger (1:13:16)

Thanks for joining me on this episode of Sink and

hope today's story has inspired you to sink into your raw, unfiltered truths and illuminate the power to rise and swim into the most authentic soul story that's been waiting to be told and shared with the

As your host,

an honor and joy to share the story of luminaires who have done and continue to do exactly this.

I hope you enjoyed diving into today's topic.

If you're feeling the tug to discover more,

be sure to check out the show notes where you'll find links to resources, articles, and more.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode too.

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for listening, and until next time, keep sinking deep so you can swim into a life that aligns with the story your soul came here to tell.