Write the Damn Book (and Trust Yourself While You’re At It): Elizabeth Lyons on Storytelling and Letting It Be Enough

When bestselling author and publishing mentor Elizabeth Lyons joins Julie for a conversation about trusting your voice, what unfolds is a deeply human, hilarious, and refreshingly honest look at the creative process—from loosening the “Conformity Corset” to navigating self-doubt, self-trust, and sourdough starters. Together they explore what it really takes to write (and live) in your own voice—without needing Oprah’s approval or a book deal to prove it.

00:00 – “Breaking News & Beginnings”
Julie shares breaking news — she’s finished her first book draft (!!) — and introduces Elizabeth Lyons, six-time author, mentor, and queen of saying the quiet parts of the creative process out loud.

06:45 – “The Responsibility of Storytelling”
A deep dive into the ethics of memoir: how to revisit truth without re-traumatizing yourself or your reader, and why every powerful story has to “land the plane.”

12:48 – “What Every Aspiring Author Should Know”
Elizabeth debunks the biggest myths in publishing — from “write a book in a weekend” to “everyone else has it figured out” — and shares her real-world wisdom on patience, process, and staying power.

17:15 – “From Editor to Author: The Art of Self-Trust”
How to trust your voice when doubt creeps in, why creative insecurity is actually a sign of integrity, and what happens when you stop trying to “do writing right.”

27:40 – “The Brené Brown Fantasy: Publishing Realities & Industry Illusions”
A truth-bomb conversation about traditional vs. indie publishing, why The Today Show doesn’t sell books, and how chasing visibility can strangle your creative joy.

43:50 – “Loosening the Conformity Corset”
Elizabeth gets raw about unlearning people-pleasing, learning to feel safe being herself, and surrounding herself with people who let her breathe — not bind.

57:40 – “Future You, Present Peace”
Her signature practice: journaling as “future you.” How it rewires self-trust, softens anxiety, and helps her move through creative life with more ease and humor.

1:06:20 – “The Sourdough Era & The Permission to Begin Again”
They close with laughter, carbs, and creative metaphor — from sourdough starters and Highland cows to the tattoo that reminds us all: you can always begin again.

Love what you hear and want to learn more from Elizabeth?

Check out her website www.elizabethlyons.com and follow her on instagram @elizabethlyonsauthor

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Transcript

Julie Granger (00:59)

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Sink and Swim. Today, I get the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Elizabeth Lyons, who's a dear friend and mentor of mine, and also a mom and a six-time published author, a book writing and publishing guide, and a woman who knows what it means to trust your voice, tell your story, and help others do the same. She's also a maker. You should see the DIY thing she does.

a baker and someone who believes that stories are one of the most powerful ways we can connect with ourselves and with each other. And so do I. I love that. There's many things I love about Elizabeth, but one of the main ones is her honesty and her humor. She doesn't pretend the journey has been easy. And I can tell you that in her books, like the way she talks in her books is how she talks in real life, which number one is a skill.

Elizabeth Lyons (01:35)

Yeah!

Julie Granger (01:54)

doesn't seem like it should be a skill, but it is a skill to write how you talk. ⁓ She's mastered it. So if you've ever read any of her books, and I encourage you to if you haven't, it's going to sound just like she does on this podcast. She has wrestled with people pleasing. She has learned what it means to unlearn old patterns. She has found her way back to self-trust amidst all of that, all while helping countless of others bring their own voices onto the page and grapple with all those things too.

Elizabeth Lyons (01:56)

you

Julie Granger (02:20)

so let's dive in. Welcome.

Elizabeth Lyons (02:23)

How are you? Good.

Julie Granger (02:24)

I'm good, I'm good.

It's the end of the day. It's the end of the week. I feel like this week has been a month long.

Elizabeth Lyons (02:31)

Agreed. On Tuesday, I was like, it Friday? Yesterday, I really struggled. I did not know for a solid minute, which is a pretty long time when you're trying to figure out what day it is. I was really concerned about myself.

Julie Granger (02:41)

solid man. Well, that's been

me all week, so I resonate.

Elizabeth Lyons (02:47)

And what was hard is I was actually doing a podcast with a woman who was in Singapore. So while it was Wednesday for me, it legit was Thursday for her. So when I said, what day is it? She said, it's Thursday. And then I got even more tripped up. Yeah. No, I don't know.

Julie Granger (03:01)

Right, which way is up and which way is down? Who knows?

It's anyone's guess at this point.

Elizabeth Lyons (03:07)

anyone's

guess. That's for sure.

Julie Granger (03:09)

OK, so we met in a mastermind several years ago, which was one of the best things to come out of the mastermind was knowing you and getting to stay connected. And then I was in your own book writing mastermind ⁓ working on my own, which, by the way, I think I messaged you, but actually I was lying.

Elizabeth Lyons (03:15)

sure was.

Yeah, yeah.

Julie Granger (03:28)

Literally, breaking news. 45 minutes ago, I can say with certainty I'm done with my first draft.

Elizabeth Lyons (03:30)

Okay, breaking news.

Yes!

This is is breaking news. This is a great day. It's September 25th, right? It's happening.

Julie Granger (03:43)

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, officially done.

So anyway, that's the breaking news.

Elizabeth Lyons (03:49)

I feel like I'm like

What are you drinking?

Julie Granger (03:50)

You're too short.

A very, very fancy beverage known as La Croix, here in my fancy glass, because life is short, why not?

Elizabeth Lyons (03:56)

my gosh,

Use the fancy glasses. I feel like your favorite friend, Taylor Swift, would approve.

Julie Granger (04:03)

Taylor Swift would absolutely approve of that. My favorite friend. So tell us about you and why we're talking about books.

Elizabeth Lyons (04:12)

So, gosh, this is like my least favorite question in the whole world. I don't know if anybody else feels that way, but when it's like, so tell us about yourself. But I guess the way I would summarize the book side of me is I love stories. I love all manner of stories.

I love words and I love the way that people use words. And I love the way that words mean different things to different people. And so that might be a whole psychology side of me that I realized way too late that I was fascinated by, but I just love stories. I love fictional stories. I love real stories, all of it. And so that's where my love of working

on books comes from is really helping people tell their story, whether it's their lived story or helping them construct and further hone their constructed story, right? In a way that really brings in a reader and helps a reader identify either with a lived story or a fictional story, because I do truly believe that we can learn as much from reading fiction about ourselves.

Julie Granger (05:18)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (05:20)

as we can learn while reading non-fiction. So that's in a nutshell. And then it's kind of everything that goes with that that I feel capable of helping people with. So there are certain elements of the book writing and publishing process that I like full disclosure, not my lane.

Julie Granger (05:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

First of all, it's so good that you're aware of what's not your lane. And you're so good at directing to the right person or resource to fill that lane. ⁓

Elizabeth Lyons (05:47)

Well, thank you.

I mean, that's the goal, right? Like I, the goal is not to be everything to everyone. That's exhausting and impossible. And I am, I'm grateful that I have people now that I can say, I'm not the right person. However, I think you might want to, and I think that's also a part and parcel of the whole story thing, right? Is how we connect to other people. And sometimes part of your story, pun intended, is that

Julie Granger (05:50)

Yeah.

I'm going to leave you.

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (06:13)

maybe you asked me for help with something and I'm not the right person, but I connected you to this person and then maybe they connected you to this other person and now you're best friends forever, right?

Julie Granger (06:21)

So what would you say are the favorite parts of your lane in guiding other people?

Elizabeth Lyons (06:26)

⁓

I think one of the favorite parts is when someone's writing nonfiction or memoir,

trying to help someone talk through why they're stuck in a specific spot, what's, what that's bringing up for them, what their fears are around it, and

the authors who write them are often very knowledgeable in the area in, you know, in which they're writing so much so in fact, that many times they almost forget that they know is they know more than their reader does. And so there are, are lots of pockets that are missing where a reader, if you're not very clear about where that reader is in his or her experience of your material will be very confused.

Julie Granger (07:00)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (07:12)

And I love that. And one of the things I've had to learn over the last nine years in that coaching too is where my lane ends. Because especially when we're doing memoir, when it becomes clear that I'm not an inner child or a trauma expert, I'm not, none of that. So it's very important to me that I recognize when we're treading into an area where I need to lovingly and compassionately suggest

that the author perhaps seek additional, therapy Additional support outside of me because I'm admittedly not qualified to do, I'm qualified through Google. Like that's like, you know, I'm, and my own life experience. And I've said that for years, but that's it. So.

Julie Granger (07:45)

Yeah.

I'm

Yeah, well, it's so emotional to write, whether it's a nonfiction book where you're sharing your expertise, but then there's stories in there to back it, whether they're your own or your own client's stories. And then, of course, a memoir

Elizabeth Lyons (08:02)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (08:14)

if you're going to have that emotional resonance, then you've got to revisit those emotional moments. And if you don't have the resource and the wherewithal to hold yourself as you revisit, it's going to come out in the writing, like it's not going to do justice because you're going to skim over it, Or it can unravel you or like you end up telling the story from the outside looking in.

Elizabeth Lyons (08:17)

Yeah.

or you end up telling someone else's story. Yeah.

Julie Granger (08:40)

That's right. Yeah.

So I think it's so important as someone who's gone through the process now to have someone to be like, God, can I talk to you about like, like, this is a little deeper than just like help me figure out how to wrap words around this, you know, it's like help me process this next layer. And maybe there is a nudge to take it a layer deeper. And in order to do that, I need support, know?

Elizabeth Lyons (08:46)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right,

right. So it's figuring out, I wanna go a layer deeper? And if I do wanna go a layer deeper, how do I do that? And if I don't wanna go a layer deeper, I don't have to, but how do we make sure that the reader doesn't feel like you're leaving things out?

Julie Granger (09:08)

Well, and eat.

Elizabeth Lyons (09:20)

Let's go with the sink and swim, right? You can't take the reader down and not bring them back.

Julie Granger (09:26)

There's a responsibility, yeah, to that storytelling piece of, and I've always known this, I'm like you, I love storytelling, I love helping people with storytelling. It's in the work I do, although mine's more in the more like life spirit coaching lane, right? And years ago, I did a lot of speaking and storytelling and sharing like on stages. And I remember recognizing you have a responsibility to the audience to tell a good story, to draw them in.

Elizabeth Lyons (09:28)

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (09:52)

to whatever it is you're speaking about. But you also have a responsibility to help bring them from the edge of their seat, waiting and emotional in it with you, back to the back of their seat. It's like, and we're going to relax. And not that I'm responsible for their emotions, but you kind of are in a way. It's like, don't trigger them and then leave them hanging.

Elizabeth Lyons (10:09)

Right.

And don't do it. Don't do it purposefully. Or if you're doing it purposefully, do it intentionally purposefully. Right. It's like you don't want anyone to come up to you later and say, my God, you you made me have an anxiety attack.

don't knowingly leave them in a place that is uncomfortable. You've got to bring it back. It's like all stories have, we got to land the plane. You got to land the plane. Now where you land the plane is your decision. Just make sure it's an intentional decision. And that'll help so much too.

Julie Granger (10:30)

You've got to bring it back to baseline.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (10:43)

when you go to do any kind of marketing or promotion, because when people ask you about, and this happens a lot when people are writing about, you know, their divorce or something where they don't want to talk about the other person and probably shouldn't in most cases. But when the questions ultimately come, you want to be able to confidently say, yeah, I purposely am not touching that. you don't want to feel like you're a deer in the headlights.

Julie Granger (11:08)

That's right. That's right. And that's actually been a really interesting piece and a part that I've really enjoyed about that creative process is you get to choose the depth of truth that you share. And that's actually incredibly powerful. And it's not withholding or lying there's actually so much self honor and other honor in that. And yet sometimes,

Elizabeth Lyons (11:08)

when someone's asking you about something.

Yes.

Julie Granger (11:33)

you might share about that other person like the story won't hold if you don't give the details. ⁓ And like, you don't take us into the scene of what was said Cause it just feels like a glossing over, you know? It's like you don't do the emotional justice, but yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (11:38)

Right. Right.

Right.

Right. It's important that

the reader understands why it matters. So I'll often ask authors with whom I'm working, why does this matter? that can feel very challenging. Like I'm asking them to defend themselves and I'm not. It's true, it's literal. Tell me why this matters So if once you can tell me and I can have a better context around it,

Julie Granger (11:51)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (12:11)

Maybe we can find a, air quote, better way into it and out of it than just dropping it like a big elephant in a living room and then expecting people to be like, where'd this come from and why is it still here and when is it leaving? Yeah, so.

Julie Granger (12:24)

Mm-hmm.

great metaphor. Why is this even here?

Elizabeth Lyons (12:29)

You know me and my analogies

and metaphors. They're never ending.

Julie Granger (12:32)

gosh.

so much gold here already. I'm curious for anyone who is, especially because you've walked it yourself six times and you've guided so many people. And I know this might not be able to be boiled down into one thing, so pick three. What do you wish every aspiring author knew before they began?

Elizabeth Lyons (12:49)

Okay.

that it takes a while. That is the number one thing. Well, okay, I can pretty quickly do three. So that it takes a while, like this write a book in a weekend stuff is garbage. Can you outline it in a weekend? Sure. Can you like, okay, but crazy. Two, that every other author feels or has felt the way you're currently feeling, including New York Times bestselling authors, including...

Julie Granger (13:03)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (13:21)

70 time authors with 70 books under their belt. Every book is a new, it's like to a degree like starting all over again. And just because you've written a book and released it doesn't mean that now it's not like, once I do one, everything will be easy. So I think, and that's so much.

Julie Granger (13:32)

Mm.

Elizabeth Lyons (13:43)

what I aim to shed light on in my own podcast, right? Is sharing from the perspective of indie authors, traditionally published authors, New York Times bestselling authors, the gamut that everyone's like, I didn't know everyone else felt this way. I thought it was just me. ⁓ So that's two. And I guess the third thing would be you don't...

Julie Granger (14:01)

Mmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (14:08)

People would be surprised how many authors today do not have any sort of formal training as a writer. Of course we have the literary writers who are incredible, who have MFAs and went to Iowa's writer, Iowa writer's workshop and et cetera, et cetera, residencies and the like. The vast majority of contemporary writers today

Julie Granger (14:20)

Bye.

Elizabeth Lyons (14:38)

specifically memoir, women's fiction, they are learning the craft. I have had so many people say my first book was my MFA. And whether that book sees or saw the light of day, sometimes yes, sometimes no, that was their, they really immersed themselves in the craft of constructing story with words on the page, which is different from say the moth.

Julie Granger (14:46)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (15:07)

storytelling from a stage. It's a completely different beast.

Julie Granger (15:07)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

it's such a different beast.

Yeah. Well, because it lingers forever. It's like, and it's got to be somewhat timeless, you know?

Elizabeth Lyons (15:21)

Well, when

you're on stage, right, you have other modalities that you can add in. Look at me, I talk with my hands. So in order to be able to talk with my hands in the page, it requires exclamation points. I am the queen of exclamation points and I have to limit myself in my books because if I had it my way, every sentence would end with five, I mean, it wouldn't, but five exclamation points. The editor in me is like, hell no.

Julie Granger (15:28)

You

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (15:49)

But

how do we communicate enthusiasm and excitement? And when you're speaking on stage and you can bring it down like this, and it was a cold, dark night, how do we bring the reader down to that pace with words?

Julie Granger (16:05)

Yeah, I think about some of the best books I've read that you then see it in movie, how it's portrayed as a movie. And I'm like, you know, it was written so well when the movie matches exactly what I was picturing and feeling,

Elizabeth Lyons (16:22)

Well, and bless the director of the movie who stuck with the original and didn't feel the need. again, sometimes books, in order to work on the screen, something has to be adapted slightly. And sometimes that's the storyline to a degree, right? So yeah, it's fascinating to me.

Julie Granger (16:25)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

That's right. That's right. That's right.

So

fascinating. I love this thread about figuring out how to wrap the not tangible parts of language and experience and communication into words. I'm curious how in your own experience, you've learned how, you know, to both,

Elizabeth Lyons (17:03)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (17:10)

as someone through the editor lens, but also as someone who threw the writer lens, which are slightly different lenses. You you've got the editors a little bit more like brass tacks and here's what's going to work for other humans. How do you learn to trust your own voice as you're writing?

Elizabeth Lyons (17:17)

Yeah.

Well, what I've learned is that such a bigger question because

you can be someone who is extremely good at what you do professionally, whatever that is. And you're accomplished and you have all of the accolades, whatever those are to air quote, prove how accomplished and good and skilled you are. That same person will go write a book who's never written a book and all of a sudden just feel completely incompetent and start to have a lot of self doubt. And so,

Julie Granger (17:54)

Hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (17:59)

it's to me, it starts with a noticing and an acceptance of, I don't know. And the truth is, you'll never know with a book how it's going to be received until it's on the market. And

Also, it could be not well received and have absolutely zero to do with you. So for authors whose books were released three days before or after COVID really hit the scene or just any major situation that happens, their books won't perform as expected, it has nothing to do with them. Horrible timing.

Julie Granger (18:22)

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm.

Elizabeth Lyons (18:40)

So I think when you're in the writing process, it's just accepting that this is part of it. Like, this is the part where I start to question myself.

Julie Granger (18:48)

interesting that you say that because I think that it's almost like saying in order to trust yourself, you also have to trust that you will question yourself, paradoxically speaking, like that this is just part of process.

Elizabeth Lyons (18:59)

For sure. mean, think about it. you

So there's such a broad gap between humility and arrogance. If you never ever question yourself, to me, you're either inherently arrogant or you're arrogant to cover your deep...

Julie Granger (19:07)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (19:25)

lack of self-trust. I've not come across a creative, whether you're writing, painting, singing, any of that, who doesn't at some point go, I don't know if this is any good. And they get on stage to perform and they don't know

Julie Granger (19:26)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (19:41)

how's this gonna go? So it does bring about the opportunity to work on that aspect of ourselves.

Julie Granger (19:48)

yeah, if you're not questioning or feeling doubt a little bit, there's something inherently inhuman about that, or you're four years old, you know? so egocentric, so inherently, like, and I'm gonna use this word, it's a strong word, but it's actually normal for four-year-olds, which is narcissistic.

Elizabeth Lyons (20:08)

Yeah. Yes.

Julie Granger (20:08)

⁓ that's normal at age four.

Like you have no qualms. You have no question. You'll get up on stage and sing, There's no questioning. There's no doubt. And I love that for them. And may we all bend into our inner four year old in that way. But I think what it sounds like you're saying is as an adult within a developed prefrontal cortex and

emotional development that we hope has occurred, that it's healthy and normal and natural to have some doubt in the process because it's like that's an area of growth inward and therefore outward on the page growth not only in you seeing your own expression but how are other people going to see it?

and receive it.

Elizabeth Lyons (20:49)

Well, and it's also being its growth in being willing to have someone else say, I don't, I, this isn't for me and for you to just say,

Julie Granger (20:55)

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. That's vulnerable.

Elizabeth Lyons (21:00)

writing a book is one of the most growth, expansive things you can do and vulnerable. And putting those two things together is not something that people anticipate when they sit down and say, think I'm gonna write a book.

Julie Granger (21:06)

Mm-hmm.

I think that's one reason I chose memoir is because I knew it would be first and foremost for me. ⁓ You know, like expansion and expression and, deepening my own understanding of parts of my story and processing of parts of my story.

Elizabeth Lyons (21:20)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (21:29)

I needed to go through that process and it wasn't just about being authoritative in my knowledge.

Elizabeth Lyons (21:38)

If that's your intention, I mean, and that's also where editing by an outside party is super helpful. And it's important that an editor knows what your intention is so they can work within those guidelines because otherwise the editor is potentially telling you what he or she thinks it should be

Julie Granger (21:48)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

So you've...

acted as a writer and a publisher and an editor.

are there favorites for you in each part of the process?

we're talking about the hard parts, but what's fun in each part of the process?

Elizabeth Lyons (22:05)

Yeah.

So as an author, the fun part is when I know how something is going to be written, like right now working on this novel, which I swear I'll be working on for the next 30 years, like it's just, it feels like it's just going to be forever. But when something just works and I feel like the scene is so vibrant in my mind's eye that I can write it easily.

Julie Granger (22:17)

Mwahaha

Elizabeth Lyons (22:33)

when things click, like when I get ideas for ways to connect something from the beginning to something to the end, something like that, that's super fun that I can't get home fast and I can't get front of the laptop fast enough. editing other people's work, man, I

Julie Granger (22:42)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I hear you on that.

Elizabeth Lyons (22:50)

How do I say this? There is nothing, there's not a lot better than when an author has really and truly put everything they have into the draft that they turn over to their editor. And yes, there are almost always things that can be tweaked or enhanced or whatever, but you can just feel them on the page.

and it's like this knowing that I'm the only one right now who's had the privilege of having my eyes on this. It's sort of this.

It's a, mean, it's a gift for sure, but it's kind of just this like secret moment where I know how much this work is going to impact whomever it reads, whether it's fiction or non or memoir or whatever. And I'm just, I'm so in awe that my eyes are seeing it before.

anybody else's. And sometimes it's not before anybody else's. Sometimes there have been other beta readers and etc. But it's before it's out to the world.

Julie Granger (23:51)

I'm sorry.

It's its most raw form. It's naked!

Elizabeth Lyons (23:57)

Yes. Yes. And you

know, which is another thing I've said, wouldn't it be great not we, you and I think have talked about this. If there were a book that on the left-hand side, it was the very first iteration of chapter one on the right-hand side or chapter seven or whatever on the right-hand side, it was the final version after all the drafts all the editing and all the tweaking and et cetera. It's like, I see that in whatever state the

the draft is when it comes to me, it's at its most raw for me. And so to see, to be able to go back to the author and say, whatever I say developmentally and whatever my suggestion is, and then see what they do with that, that is so fun. That is so fun.

Julie Granger (24:41)

Yeah.

You go from that raw naked to you version to a transformed, even like more expansive, more expressed potentially, we hope, right? And that is, it sounds so much like the coaching process where you start working. mean, the more life coaching process, like where you start working with someone or even like I'm a physical therapist in my background. It's like, you get that first.

Elizabeth Lyons (24:53)

Right, right.

Julie Granger (25:07)

vulnerable, raw moment with someone and what a like a gift, you're right, it's sacred, it'd to be trusted with that. And then you get to see it on the other side of what it became and who that person became, not just the writing, but who did they become in the process too. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (25:18)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Right.

the way they see something more clearly and kind of the aha moments that they have. It's just, it's...

I'd love it.

Julie Granger (25:33)

I also like this point you said about you can tell how in it they are. That's something you said early on that I really took to heart, which I think also speaks to your two pieces of advice. Really, your three pieces of advice. It takes a while. It's not just you. And it's normal. You don't have to be a formally trained writer to start. I feel like there's this element of,

Give it time for your own expression to develop and your own writing to develop. Don't rush it for the sake of getting it out there, unless for some reason you need to. right, like, I'm like

Elizabeth Lyons (26:09)

And when would you need to? Yeah.

I had someone reach out just about a month ago and say they were looking for an editor and they were insistent that the book be able to be edited within four weeks, which I won't commit to. mean, that's just not, that's not my process.

And what I inquired as to why it was because my competitor, this was a business book, my competitor is launching a book the week after, and I want to make sure that I can usurp that person in the Amazon rankings. Like I want to get out there first. And I thought, and I I responded differently than I would have responded eight years ago, even five years ago. I was very much because I believe you have to let people just be on their journey. And this person didn't ask me,

Hey, do you think that's a good plan? So I just said, I totally understand. Just to reassure you, I don't think that's completely necessary. If you wanna talk about that further, let me know. But if this is your timeline, I'm not the right person for you. And they did go with someone else, which is great, which is fine. And I wish them all the best with their, and for all the goals that they're looking to hit, I hope that they hit them. I just...

Julie Granger (27:16)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (27:24)

the book will be out there in perpetuity. So this mad rush it's almost like in the book industry, there are two sectors. I made this analogy before and it's a little bit off color, but if you want to be an actor, some people want to like get an Oscar. They want to be

just they wanna be like the Robert De Niro, the Meryl Streep. They wanna really hone their craft. And some people wanna be in porn. They're all acting, right? But it's the same people who wanna be Meryl Streep would not be going to networking events and having conversations and building the craft as the people who wanna be in adult films. And that's not even a derogatory or a critical statement. It's just too...

Julie Granger (27:50)

Yep.

Elizabeth Lyons (28:10)

Same sort of industry, but different subsets of the industry. Book publishing is the same. So we've got people who really want to write a book that entertains, engages, grows, allows them to write more books, that sort of thing. And then we have the side that's like, look, I don't really care if it's well written. This is about building my business. I just want to, and that's okay, I might add.

but not if you are, it doesn't typically work well if you are not, if you do not take the time to still make it, air quote, good.

Julie Granger (28:48)

Well, I hear exactly what you're saying and I think it depends on your goal, right? ⁓ I feel like, you know, coming from the editor lens.

Elizabeth Lyons (28:52)

Yes, yes.

Julie Granger (28:59)

Because what you telling me or what you said a while back and kind of where I'm drawing this from is like an editor can only take you so far as what you've given them. And I love that so much because I've read so many books, as you know, and so many nonfiction books. Those are the ones especially where you can see it, where it's kind of like this isn't, it's OK. It's a two to three star book. It's like OK-ish.

Elizabeth Lyons (29:07)

Correct. ⁓

Julie Granger (29:24)

but the writing's not that good. And I'm like, I just don't feel connected to the author. And it feels like there's this other motive here. And again, no judgment behind that, but it's just, I like emotionally compelling stuff that draws me in and I can't put it down until I stay up till 3.30 in the morning, no matter the genre.

Elizabeth Lyons (29:36)

Mm-mm.

Yeah, no matter the

and all the more reason to know what you're doing and why what's your goal because then if you know what your goal is and the book isn't going there, you don't look backwards and go, I wish someone would have told me that.

Julie Granger (29:52)

Yes.

Elizabeth Lyons (30:02)

you know, I shouldn't call a 10,000 word book a book. I should maybe call it like a big PDF, you know, or some such thing. Yeah. ⁓

Julie Granger (30:08)

Hmmmm

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Interesting. Yeah, for me, it's definitely, that was, you know, even from the outset. And I know I told you, was like, I'm just here for the fun of it. Like for that, I still, like, I still feel like the process has been so fun. And the minute it's not fun, I'm like, I'm out. I'm out because it needs to stay fun because that's where I really get in it. Like you're saying where I'm like, ooh, I can figure out how to like do this one little segment and like put all the pieces together and ooh, like.

Elizabeth Lyons (30:24)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (30:41)

this thing and this chapter and I see the callback that I didn't even realize I just made. that part is so enjoyable. And it just allows for more of me to come into it, which no editor could do for me. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (30:46)

Yes. Yes.

Right.

And there's a big misconception, think, specifically with first time authors and understandably, because if you've never been through the process, how would you know this? That your editor's job is actually to help rewrite. Like if you don't know how to say something, they'll help you say it. I shouldn't say it's never correct. There might be editors out there who are willing to do that. That's not where I...

because then I'm writing that's ghost writing or co-writing ⁓ as opposed to making some suggestions about like, how could we tighten this up? How could we make this? This sentence just isn't quite landing, but you're kind of working on it together. So I think sometimes first time authors are like, well,

Julie Granger (31:19)

That's ghost writing. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (31:34)

I mean, I've done just sort of the best I can almost. I'm just tired of looking at it. I'm gonna send it off to my editor and he or she will fix the whole thing. And that's not what it is. It's not what it is. Yeah.

Julie Granger (31:43)

It's not a doctor. It's

not like a surgeon, you know?

Have you watched the Netflix series, Younger? Okay. What do you think about it?

Elizabeth Lyons (31:50)

Yes.

Okay. I love it so much. And can I just say I was just in New York city with my son, George. And the first night that we got in, we got in at like, it was late and it was anyway, I go to bed at like 4 PM, but it was, it was like 9 PM. And then my friend, Kate didn't get in until 1130. And she said, we're going to, Marie's crisis.

Julie Granger (31:58)

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Elizabeth Lyons (32:15)

And I was like, I am not going to Marie's Crisis. I did not go. But my son and my friends, Kate and McKenna went to Marie's Crisis from midnight to 3 a.m. and then came home. I love the show.

Julie Granger (32:27)

love it because it brings like the writing and editing and publishing industry into conversation. ⁓ I don't know what's accurate and what's not, you know, like, and that's not the point, I feel like. But I do feel like I learned a lot that is probably accurate, you know, that gives me a lot of respect for

Elizabeth Lyons (32:33)

Agreed.

Sure. Sure.

Julie Granger (32:47)

the people on the editing and publishing side of the process. Like I brought the segue in when you were saying like the editor doesn't rewrite the book because the character, gosh, she was 40 but playing 26. I can't remember her name. Liza. Liza volunteered to kind of rewrite this like famous author's book that was garbage.

Elizabeth Lyons (33:02)

Liza.

Julie Granger (33:09)

And she nailed it, right? But then the famous author was really mad about it and like ego got involved. And I was like, yeah, you know, I bet that when like big name people it's on the line and they turn in a draft that's garbage, the publishing house is like, crap, like, what are we going to do? You know? ⁓

Elizabeth Lyons (33:12)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I

I'm an indie publishing, like that's my world. I've never said I will never traditionally publish. I just haven't wanted to go that route as of yet, but it's not bad or good or right or wrong. There's pros and cons to everything. The traditional publishing process is a lot more convoluted.

Julie Granger (33:28)

Right.

Elizabeth Lyons (33:50)

than people realize.

Julie Granger (33:52)

OK, this is great. I actually wanted to ask you about this. as someone, so by the way, this is the first time I think on my podcast I've said, hey, by the way, I just finished writing I mentioned it in another interview that actually came out this week with my friend Kate, because we have very parallel journeys in many ways. Anyway, that's the first time I said it, but I didn't go into more detail.

But I have obviously told some people, and it's so funny. And I know you know this. The reactions, the assumptions, the, by the way, to anyone listening who has said these things to me, I'm not putting you on blast. But to your point of like, people don't know, like your three pieces of advice for new authors.

Elizabeth Lyons (34:13)

right?

my God, my God. I know, it's wild, isn't it? It's looking, it's sitting up.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (34:35)

I feel like those also need to go out to the general public. Like we need to put it on the front page of the New York Times. That's like, okay, like if your friend is writing a book, maybe you need to make some posts about this that are like, here's what not to say.

Elizabeth Lyons (34:45)

my god.

I was just gonna say you just gave

me a great, like a whole series post ideas. Thank you, I will credit you of course. Yes. Things not to say to your friend who has a book coming out. That's a series in and of itself. Yeah.

Julie Granger (34:52)

series of vlogs and posts.

or a family member.

Yeah.

And it becomes like I, so I think, so I started writing August 1st of 2024. And we're now talking September 25th of 2025. That's 14 months. ⁓ Where I'm finally like, I'm closing it. I'm not tweaking it any longer. I'm going to pass it on to a beta reader. We're good to go.

Elizabeth Lyons (35:18)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Julie Granger (35:29)

so in August, 2024, I also took a little step back from my work and I was kind of in a pause because I was like, I'm going focus on writing. This is just what we're doing. But like, I told a couple of people at that point because the question was like, what are you working on? How's work? And so there was this easy little thing to slide in there that was like, well, I'm actually writing a book.

Elizabeth Lyons (35:44)

⁓

Julie Granger (35:49)

And then literally every time they ran into me after that, that's all they could ask me. And they're like, so have you published it yet? are you going to do like a book tour? That's everyone's favorite question. I'm like, well, I don't know. Like, we're not there yet.

Elizabeth Lyons (35:57)

Yep.

this is so interesting because there are like degrees of misunderstanding about what publishing is. So on the very outer edge of the degrees are just what I'll call regular people, non-authors, people who have never written a book, don't have any interest in writing a book, whatever. Then there, you move in a little closer to the epicenter and it's people who want to write a book and make assumptions about how this all works.

And then you have the epicenter of people who have been through it and still sometimes are like, well, I've written eight books, but I've never had this happen before, I mean, it's a constant navigation of, think like my mantra, if you want to call it that all the time, it's just like, wait, what? Because there's just new things happening all the time.

Julie Granger (36:45)

Well, and you also hear of the celebrity authors and or celebrities who become authors. And everyone sees Brene Brown doing her TED Talks and doing her book tour and showing up on everyone's podcast. Back in the day, she was showing up on the, although I just saw she was on the Good Morning America. They're doing TV spots. They got all the stuff, right? And so I've been asked the questions, are you going to be on the Today Show? Are you going to be on Oprah?

Elizabeth Lyons (36:49)

Sure.

Right.

Julie Granger (37:12)

And I'm like.

Elizabeth Lyons (37:14)

Oprah doesn't have a show anymore, folks. You know, I mean, it's all Sunday, but you know. Right.

Julie Granger (37:15)

Well, and it's like you don't know how to answer because you realize

you're about to burst someone's bubble by being honest, which I don't really, I'm not shy about, but at the same time, it's like, I'm gonna pull you into the reality of actually like the second layer bubble, right? Just a little bit. I'm on this third layer, but let me just pull you into the second layer or pull that second layer person into the third layer.

Elizabeth Lyons (37:35)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (37:39)

And at the same time I've gotten this reaction, like, well, do you not believe in yourself? Do you not believe that you could be the same as Brene Brown? I'm like, that's not really what it's about. I'm like, this isn't a confidence issue on my part. Maybe. I'm not saying it's not going to happen. But that's not necessarily the first and foremost goal that we're going for here. And if it is, I'm in the wrong channel.

Elizabeth Lyons (37:48)

Do you have a limiting belief?

Right. Right. Right.

Right,

Julie Granger (38:03)

So yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (38:03)

right. It's a lot of just assumptions, misunderstandings, misconceptions, which is a lot of what I spend my time doing, to be honest, is helping aspiring authors better understand, because it actually...

sometimes it can be delivered in a way that it feels like, this is so negative. Like, no, you're probably not going to get a $500,000 advance. No, you're probably not going to go on a book tour. No, you're probably not going to get on the Today Show. And that can all feel very negative. But here's the thing. Once you start getting clear about what can happen, and also that most traditionally published authors aren't doing major tours, the Today Show and getting a $500,000 advance,

you start to feel like, I better understand how this works now. And now that I better understand it, I can better set my own expectations. And once your expectations are set better, my God. I mean, the number of problems that that solves is large. It's large.

Julie Granger (39:02)

It's large.

it's one of the things that you've said, you know, is even getting on the Today Show doesn't sell your book.

Elizabeth Lyons (39:10)

yeah, it's fewer than 200 books sell as the result of appearing on the Today Show. And when you think about that, it's wild because I don't know what the Today Show's viewership is today, but I'm imagining it's still in the millions. And back in the day, when I started 20 years ago, was significantly higher. And even then the average author would sell maybe 350 copies. So again, to sell 200 to 300 copies,

Julie Granger (39:13)

Insane.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (39:37)

for one four minute appearance is nothing to snub your nose at. Like that's great. The problem is that people's expect, my gosh, if 5 million people are watching and only 1 % buys, I mean, I'm not, need chat GPT to do math for me, but that's more than 200, I think. So then they feel like there's something wrong with them because they didn't sell that many.

Julie Granger (39:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (40:02)

And further, the cost today of hiring a publicist, if you're an independent author, who can even attempt to get you on the Today Show is prohibitive for many, if not most, independent authors. So...

Julie Granger (40:15)

That's actually been a really,

yeah, that's been a huge point that I've explained to people coming from the marketing world too, where I understand what it takes to have that type of exposure. Is that sort of another bubble burster, okay, so if, let me just walk you through what Brene Brown has at her disposal resource wise, you know, like she's got an agent.

Elizabeth Lyons (40:18)

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (40:35)

someone who's like real good at negotiating and dealing with contracts, And totally in that person's corner. They're going to have a publicist or a team, a whole publicist team.

Elizabeth Lyons (40:43)

99 % of a traditional publishing houses marketing budget goes toward 1 % of their authors. It's the Brene Browns and the James Pattersons and the Colleen Hoovers and the Emily Henry. That's where the marketing budget is going. Now, more and more today, they are diverting a little more their funds toward debut, specifically debut fiction authors,

Julie Granger (41:05)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (41:07)

Every publishing house is hoping that like, where's the next Colleen Hoover? Where's the next Emily Henry? Where's the next Taylor Jenkins Reid? That's so there, you know, but there's a big middle area there of what they call mid-list authors, which is not a derogatory term. It is sometimes perceived that way, however, and those authors are very much having to

Julie Granger (41:11)

That's right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (41:32)

use a large portion of their advance in many cases, or I should say choosing to, but sometimes it may even be agreed to upfront, to go out and hire their own publicists to the tune of a $5,000 a month retainer with a three month minimum. it's a full-time job, it's a full-time job, and the money goes fast.

Julie Granger (41:48)

full-time job, you know, it's a full-time employee.

Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had a couple of friends who've self-published and hired publicists, which is very cool because they, you know, they get little speaking spots here, but they're, they're not like this huge high profile thing, you know? And even they're like, yeah, that didn't really sell a lot of books, but it gave me this sort of street cred, you know? And that I think is a really important piece. And I think that

Elizabeth Lyons (42:04)

For sure.

Yes.

Julie Granger (42:15)

like bringing it into the self-publishing conversation that that's the part where people are like, well, you're going to try and go to for a publisher. And I'm like, maybe, probably not because like, and you've done a great job, I think, without disparaging, you know, it's like, this is the honesty and the humor of it of like, you know, self-publishing isn't like a four letter word. It's not this like dirty place. And some of the best books you read that are now those people on my bookshelf, you know.

Elizabeth Lyons (42:42)

Yeah. Correct. Brene Brown started that way.

Julie Granger (42:42)

they started that way or they still do it that way, right? Exactly.

With the books into the trunk of her car, right? Like, ⁓ I love that story. But I think that, you know, but then you have to talk. People are like, well, how are you going to like then the book tour questions come in and I'm like, you know, I'm going to be on my own pretty much like getting this out there. like, it's just like anything else that I do in marketing at that point.

Elizabeth Lyons (42:48)

Correct. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Correct.

Exactly.

Julie Granger (43:08)

And again, you have to be clear on the goal and just have those expectations really clear. And have, I think, have that internal dialogue for yourself on what are my expectations and goals and what's the plan. But then even have it for the external world. I think that it's not that we're kind of like not that we're responsible for what people think about the publishing process, but at the same time so that they see how seriously you're taking it.

when it doesn't look like you're taking it seriously. Yeah. Because it's not what Brene Brown does now.

It is fun though. I am enjoying it. So we've talked a lot about writing.

Elizabeth Lyons (43:46)

Now you're going to get me into the hard stuff, huh? I know.

Julie Granger (43:48)

is sink and swim. We got to sink.

Well, I'm going to quiz you at your own game. So you've published six books and you are very clear to tell me that one of them is a republish of an original, but that counts. Can you walk us through what's the premise of each and like, what's the storyline and how it mirrors your own evolution?

Elizabeth Lyons (43:52)

care.

⁓

Okay, so the first one was originally titled Ready or Not Here We Come. It's the guide to the first year with twins. So basically how to do all the things and stay sane and eat more than Cheerios, but also know that if all you're eating is Cheerios, that's totally fine. The second one is Ready or Not There We Go, which is the toddler years with twins, which is like, my God, this is how I potty trained two at once, dealt with twice the tantrums, et cetera, but also had a lot of fun and didn't lose my mind.

Julie Granger (44:12)

I'm

Right.

Elizabeth Lyons (44:32)

The third one is called, You Cannot Be Serious and 32 other rules that sustain a mostly balanced mom with the word mostly in parentheses. And that came about because someone asked me how I was with a friend going through a drive Starbucks, course, drive through and I had all five of my kids in the backseat and they were, I want to say eight and younger at that point and they were all fighting and it was a mess. And I just was very

calm, which is was not always the case, by the way, but in that moment I was and she said, I don't know how you're doing this. And I said, well, it's probably one of my rules. And so the rule was like, allow chaos or something, you know. And so she said, you could, you should write a book about this. And I was like, nobody, that's, and with the more I thought about it, I thought that could be fun for me to do. So it's really what are my rules or what were my rules. Many of them are still true, even though my kids are now 17 to 26 of how do I

stay mostly sane as a mom and as a business owner. Like how do I do those? Let's see, four was enough, the simple path to everything you want. And that's a perpetual guide for, or a field guide for perpetually exhausted entrepreneurs. So this came about because it was like, back when you and I met, I feel like the...

Julie Granger (45:30)

Mm-hmm.

Love it.

Elizabeth Lyons (45:48)

prevailing voices in the entrepreneurial space were just like, go, go, go, go more, more, more, more. Like if you have a million dollars, you could have $2 million. And if you have three cars, you could have six. it was just, I just felt like when is it ever going to be enough? And what I, right. And what I realized was, wait a minute, what I've got to figure out is what's enough for me. And how do I get to a place within myself where I'm perfect? If someone can say to me,

Julie Granger (46:04)

Amen.

Elizabeth Lyons (46:16)

You have three, I don't have three houses, but you have three houses. You get a four, you know, you got a four and I can just look at them and go, yeah, I know. And just go about my day with no animosity, with no resentment, with no nothing. And so that book was really sort of the result of my own self exploration into, when you got all these voices telling you what you should do and you have to do and what's enough for me.

The fifth book was the third edition of the first book. So it was completely redone and it was retitled, Holy shit, I'm having twins. I had, by that point, I felt come more into my voice. And when I wrote the first book, that was in 2003 and I was afraid to swear and I was trying to be so politically correct and everything. And with this book, I just was like.

Julie Granger (46:52)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (47:06)

it's me coming on the page. I'm gonna tell you how I did this and what I did and what I didn't do. And if that works for you, awesome. And if it doesn't, that's also awesome. And let me know what does work for you. And let's build this community of twins parents who are just holding on for dear life, right? And then the last one was write the damn book already, which is how to essentially, my process anyway, for getting out of your own way in order to write memoir or nonfiction.

Julie Granger (47:07)

Mm-hmm.

I love this.

Elizabeth Lyons (47:32)

And then really explaining to some degree the different publishing paradigms. And it really was set up to answer so many of the questions and the pushback and the concerns that first time authors have when they're writing nonfiction or memoir. Like, what if no one likes it? What if someone gets mad at me? And what if I get sued? And what if it doesn't sell? how do I write about somebody else? Et cetera, et cetera.

That was that one. And now I'm working on a novel and God willing, it will come out before I'm no longer here. It's a totally different beast for me. don't, I, trying to find other people who have written. I talked to this darling woman named Betsy Cornwell on my podcast last week, who's written five young adult fantasy, six young adult fantasy novels. And she just wrote a memoir.

about leaving an abusive marriage and starting a residency for single moms. And I had to ask her like, how was it switching from fantasy over to memoirs, such a more vulnerable pursuit and writing fiction after having written so many non-fiction feels very vulnerable to me because I feel like I'm starting all over. It's a different, it's just different.

Julie Granger (48:44)

Yeah.

so much imagination too, you know.

Elizabeth Lyons (48:51)

That's,

and I feel like that's the problem, Julie. I always, you know, I don't know if it's like the self-diagnosed ADHD or what it is, but I just get, I get an idea and then I even fall prey to, but is that the right idea? Could it go a different way? Should it go a different way? And man, I, I, I got to work myself through that. It's not, it's not, uh, not a walk in the park.

Julie Granger (49:14)

Yeah.

I don't

walk in the park. There's no right or wrong in fiction. And yet there's the one that lands. It's sort of like, if we're to put rightness around it, it's like, yeah, this is it. This is the sweet spot.

Elizabeth Lyons (49:21)

Well...

Yeah.

yeah, this is.

Like

I was talking yesterday, I was talking to Turner Gable Khan

The book is called The Dirty Version and it's romance, right? And I was like, this is great. But she said there were like four endings. I was like, how did you pick one?

Julie Granger (49:37)

Mmmmm.

Brilliant.

Elizabeth Lyons (49:47)

I got four beginnings, 16 middles, 32 endings, and a new character every five minutes.

Julie Granger (49:52)

my gosh, it's like choose your own adventure inside your own writing process. The moving staircases in Harry Potter, like, yeah. gosh, that does sound like a nightmare.

Elizabeth Lyons (49:55)

Yeah! ⁓ my god!

It is,

but it's just fun, but also a nightmare. Yeah.

Julie Granger (50:06)

Compared to memoir,

mean, nonfiction is like very regimented, right? Like you've got the outline. Memoir is a little bit more like, well, I don't know, how am going to tell the story? Like, which version are we telling, right? But.

Elizabeth Lyons (50:09)

That's the thing.

fiction would be so, see the air quotes, easy because it's all imagination. You'd get to make everything up. Well, it turns out it still has to make sense. Things still have to be believable. Unless I guess you're writing fantasy, which I'm absolutely not. So.

Julie Granger (50:28)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I have so much respect for really great fiction writers on how believable it gets and the imagination. Yeah, fantasy writers. Every time I read a romantic or a fantasy, I'm like, how did you even come? What? How? This is amazing.

Elizabeth Lyons (50:41)

Ugh.

The easier it is to

read a book, the harder it was to write.

Julie Granger (50:57)

Yeah, you're right. That's the case for everything. Sports, the easier it looks, the harder it was to get there. Yeah, all of it. Mm-hmm. Yuck. Yeah. Yeah. boy. I've been seeing your videos. We do see you. It's true. OK, I want to reflect something. There's going to be a Taylor Swift reference here. Of course, there will be. I'm totally committed to that bit.

Elizabeth Lyons (51:04)

for sure. Yoga.

should see me every morning. Dear God. Yeah. Wow. I just wanted everyone to share. Okay.

Ooh, okay.

Julie Granger (51:25)

So your book eras, I feel like as you were saying that, these are like your book eras and they're really mirroring where you were in your life, obviously. And they're also mirroring where you were in your own voice development. Like it's like there's more swearing clearly as you end up where you are now, which actually in Taylor Swift's era, someone has done the research and created graphs.

Elizabeth Lyons (51:44)

Mm

Julie Granger (51:50)

on just how many swear words there are in her albums across her life. And her albums are all fairly autobiographical as well. And how much swearing and honesty and realness there is versus in the beginning, it's a little bit more sweet and people-pleasy. And you're like, I'm being politically correct and making sure not to ruffle any feathers. So I'm curious. There's a follow-up question to this, which is,

What does you need to unlearn?

in order to have, you know, you've got the people who are like, tell me the how to on how to feel confident in swearing in my book. That's not the question. It's like, what did you have to unlearn? What were the things that needed to be let go of?

Elizabeth Lyons (52:24)

Yeah.

So this is an answer that I'm still growing into. Like it's still developing, to be clear. I think it took me almost 50 years to...

Julie Granger (52:41)

Me too. Yeah. yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (52:53)

to really be able to look at who I am and who I've become and be like, I like her. And I think for a long time, I was in programs and different things, which were great, which were like, it's important to love yourself. Like if we're talking about relationship advice, people will often say you have to love yourself before anyone else can love you.

Julie Granger (52:59)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (53:16)

And I feel like I always loved myself. I had the love thing down. Like that was fine, I guess. But I didn't trust myself. I wasn't sure if it was okay.

to be me. I wasn't sure if it was okay to show up in the way that felt easy. And it felt easy because it was authentic. And I, so I had to unlearn, I guess, an answer to the question, what that was supposed to look like and what that was supposed to feel like. And

Julie Granger (53:39)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (53:53)

and be willing to sort of peel it back, many times over many years. it wasn't like this step-by-step process of, well, I did this journal, all these things helped. Some more than others, some not at all. But the combination I would say from when I was about 40,

6 or 47 to 50 was significant.

Julie Granger (54:27)

Yeah, this is right about when I met you. Interesting.

Elizabeth Lyons (54:30)

I know, that's what I mean.

was like, that period of time was really interesting for me because I was investing, I was doing a lot of the shoulds in the business world anyway. And it was when my kids had kind of gotten old enough, they were quite self-sufficient. So I had a little bit more of my own time back and I was doing all these shoulds and I was just like, what?

Julie Granger (54:41)

Mm hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (54:57)

Like, where is it? Is this it? Am I always just gonna have to get more? Is there always gonna be someone who disagrees with me? Yes. Yes, there's always gonna be someone who doesn't like me, who doesn't like the way I said something, who doesn't like the shirt I wore, who, like all of it. So, so what?

Julie Granger (55:07)

Yes.

Elizabeth Lyons (55:20)

And I don't think there was like one moment when I was like, I figured it out. Because I'm still figuring it out. I find that now I'm willing to take the time to say, I don't know how I feel about that. I don't feel like I have to have an answer for things, professionally or personally.

Julie Granger (55:27)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's like the unlearning of, and this is so cliche, like being worried about if it's OK with everyone else. And the learning of, I like it, it's OK because I do. And if I do, chances are someone else does too. it's almost like putting, again, it sounds cliche, but it's like putting your attention on the people that like it.

Elizabeth Lyons (55:53)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right.

Julie Granger (56:08)

It's a little like reductionist, but it's like support you in the version of you that you like.

Elizabeth Lyons (56:10)

Bye.

So that's it. For me, I have an extremely small circle of people whom I trust implicitly. And if one of them were to say, Liz, what are you doing? I would perk up. Because for the most part, these people know me so well, and they just let me be me. And I don't feel like in my life up to that

Julie Granger (56:20)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (56:42)

I felt that I'm not saying that no one was trying to be that but I didn't feel that I didn't I didn't feel safe in relationships Just it's like you'd be great if that's what I felt. No one ever said that But it influenced the way that I

moved in the world. It mattered.

Julie Granger (57:02)

It matters. It matters.

You're naming the premise of my book. You're literally naming it. Yes. Which is like, you can do all of the inner confidence work. You can love yourself. You can get clear on what you're supposed to be doing with your life. You can build a business around it even. But there's one more piece, which is if you don't have even a small circle of people who genuinely let you be you.

Elizabeth Lyons (57:07)

I am.

Julie Granger (57:29)

in all of that that you've worked on, your who am I, what am I supposed to be doing with my life, you can't fully express your voice and yourself.

Elizabeth Lyons (57:40)

When we can just let people be who and where they are, it's a great gift. It's not easy to do. And it's not easy to find people in my experience who are comfortable enough with themselves to let me be where I am.

because maybe they feel the need to prove that their point is right, because if they can't do that, then what does that say? Then they're gonna be uncomfortable.

It's a constant thing.

Julie Granger (58:09)

It's a constant thing, but I think

just to wrap it, it's sort of like you went from being overly concerned and almost letting people's like or dislike direct what you were being, who you were being, how you were being, what you were even doing, how you were doing what you were doing to, there's certain people who can let me be me. I value their feedback on when I'm not being me.

Elizabeth Lyons (58:21)

for sure,

Julie Granger (58:32)

Right? Like that's actually an important reflection or when there's a growth point. But they also, they're there when I'm fully being me and it's like joyful and expansive and whatever, and they're not trying to bring me down. And I think that there's this message that we are sent that's like, don't care what anyone thinks. It's like, I went from caring too much what everyone thought to not caring what anyone thought to this like hyper independence.

Elizabeth Lyons (58:50)

Hmm.

Julie Granger (58:56)

But the truth is you can't fully actually be fully you unless there's some people who reflect that and hold it even when it's challenging to you for them to hold it. Like when they are reflecting something that's like, Liz, mm-mm, no, mm-mm, that's not the vibe.

Elizabeth Lyons (58:57)

and

I've learned to really notice how my body feels. And

really, really trust. Like Janet Philbin is someone who I worked with as an author and she's a therapist and she did hypnotherapy for me for a period of time. We had did some work together and she didn't even present the concept of inner child to me. She let me discover it in my own imagination. And so it was like,

Julie Granger (59:33)

Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (59:37)

I still remember that the moment I remember where I was. remember what I was seeing. I remember what I was feeling. I will never forget that. And that was such a gift because I didn't feel the pressure in my sessions with her to perform. So I don't think I can express fully the pressure that I felt, whether it was self-imposed or who knows in my earlier years to be performative in, even in therapy.

Julie Granger (59:52)

Yes.

Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's what I call.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:00:09)

Like I had to

like impress the therapist. You gotta do it right, you gotta say it right. I mean, have it like.

Julie Granger (1:00:11)

Gotta do it right. Gotta do therapy right.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:00:16)

And it, man, it's such a nice feeling to just be able to be.

Julie Granger (1:00:21)

Yeah, call it the conformity corset.

even in therapy, even in the doctor's office, even in, like, I've got all these scenes in my book that are like, well, and I've got these inner characters, speaking of the inner child, but there are characters that became, have become an integral part of the story and have their own character development that are internal. And one of them is like, no, you got to do it the way the doctor wants you to. like, and I'm in healthcare. So there's also the conditioning.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:00:35)

Yeah.

Right!

Julie Granger (1:00:49)

You know, that's like, don't upset your colleague. know, it's so, like so much of that though, that you're naming and breaking out of that corset. The corset is not just beliefs, it's also people, it's expectations, it's religion. Like there's so much, it's like breaking out of a cult, you know? And I think like you said, this will never stop evolving for us.

but to recognize when you're in it, when you've kind of reached this point of like, I'm not out of it completely, but the laces are looser and it's easier to breathe here. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:01:24)

I know

what it feels like when it shows up. And so I'm more comfortable now going, oh God, I'm feeling it. And then I can take a minute. can pause. Pause was not something that I thought I would ever be able to do. Like I was a zero to 100. I had to react immediately. You must defend. oh my gosh. I barely recognize some earlier versions of myself.

Julie Granger (1:01:26)

That's right.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:01:50)

And that's not to dismiss her or say she was bad. just, I'm so much more comfortable now and hope to continue that getting more and more. So.

Julie Granger (1:02:01)

Yeah,

they were roles you played that were protective and helpful at the time, know, like, absolutely. That makes perfect sense. Speaking of roles you play, a little bit of a pivot. so you're into gardening, baking, DIY projects. What's currently happening at your house?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:02:04)

Sure.

Yeah.

I'm attempting to bake. Let me be very clear. I

know I'm about to enter my sourdough era. I'm certain. I've watched no fewer. Now this is all going to track. I've watched no fewer than 300 videos. I'm following three or four separate women on YouTube because I wanted to just follow one, But I really like all these women for different reasons. So I'm following them all and they're not too diametrically like opposed as far as what I'm supposed to do.

Julie Granger (1:02:21)

Okay.

Okay.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:02:41)

I won't start anything. I mean, I've watched so many videos on how to start the starter. my God. So tonight I'm just going to start the damn starter. It's going to happen. Yeah. Stay tuned. So I'd like to tear out the whole primary bathroom. I just don't like it. The list of the number of things I would like to do in my house. Like, you know, okay.

Julie Granger (1:02:50)

Ooh.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:03:03)

You've surely been asked the question, if someone gave you whatever it is that you need to just meet your basic needs for a year monetarily, what would you do with that year? Okay. Do you know what the answer is for you?

Julie Granger (1:03:13)

Yeah, that's a great question.

I would read and write. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:03:17)

For real?

I love that. ⁓

Julie Granger (1:03:21)

Preferably

just read. But I have a hard time taking in without putting back out. Like it's a giving receiving little thing that I figured out. Otherwise I get kind of energetically constipated.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:03:26)

Yes! Yes.

I

knew the word constipated was coming in some way, or form. I just knew it was. I knew it was. I it was. So I thought there was something really wrong with me because I could not answer that question for the longest time. I was like, I guess I would watch Schitt's Creek and New Girl on repeat. Like, I guess that's what I would do. I realized maybe three weeks ago the answer to this question, because I had a day when

Julie Granger (1:03:35)

It's got to come back out in some way, even if it's just journaling.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:04:02)

I was gonna do nothing. It was a Sunday or something. And I was like, nothing's happening. And as it turned out, I ended up doing a bunch of things just by choice. And it was my garden, organizing my garage, probably had something to do with sourdough and some other DIY thing that I decided. So I thought, my God, that's what I would do. Like I would just create.

And I'm sure I would read a ton. You know, there are some things that go without saying, but

I've okay, this is what we're gonna do. This is it, we're gonna bake sourdough and we're gonna, I might raise a Highland cow, a baby Highland cow in the backyard. Like I might do that, that sounds really fun. And I'm gonna build stuff and I'm gonna create a whole Zinnia garden and a Dahlia and peonies and ranunculus and like all of those things, all the best ones. And I'm gonna, you know, I've got, my God, I'm gonna wallpaper the ceiling and I'm gonna build beams and.

Julie Granger (1:04:32)

Yeah, this is it.

All the

Elizabeth Lyons (1:04:57)

definitely tear out the bathroom. want a full shower. Like I have it's

Julie Granger (1:05:03)

Okay, you're going to need a little more than a year, maybe two.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:05:03)

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like if I could just get, well, I would take two, but like if I could just get in there and just work on it, you more often than I can, I might get things done more quickly.

Julie Granger (1:05:09)

stream big here.

That's true.

Maybe. We'll stay tuned. We'll see. If there's any anonymous investors out there who want to invest in this vision. Liz is open for business. ⁓

Elizabeth Lyons (1:05:21)

I don't know. Yeah. Stay tuned.

What?

I will go strike the book on the side, right,

in order to, yeah.

Julie Granger (1:05:34)

What a great book.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:05:36)

Wouldn't that be fun? I don't think I could pull myself out of the book space though for a year. Like it would still be part of my life to be clear. It's just, if it weren't kind of the, my God, but I have to pay the bills. If that worry were taken away, it would be interesting to see how I chose to spend my time every day.

Julie Granger (1:05:37)

The year I got paid to do exactly what I want.

We are. Okay.

Okay, so we need an investor that's gonna give you an advance to write the year I got paid to do whatever the hell I wanted and the lessons I learned from it or who I became in the process, like whatever, and then there's the tagline, right? And so it covers your living expenses and it covers the writing process and all the things. So you're not abandoning writing.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:06:06)

Right.

Mm hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right?

Right.

Julie Granger (1:06:25)

Amazing. All right, anyone listening? Let's put it out in the ethers. Put it in the cauldron, stir it up, see if it comes back to you. I support this. All right, beautiful. All right, well that actually is a nice segue into our lightning round.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:06:27)

I think it's a great investment. Right. It's out there. Right. That's right. Stir it up. Stir it up.

Ooh, a lightning round. ⁓ God.

Julie Granger (1:06:44)

Because

All right, here's number one. If you were any animal other than a human, what would it be and why?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:06:45)

excited.

Okay.

so there's two. always say sloth and the reason is because they're just, they're beloved for their laziness. Like they're so slow and methodical and they just, my God. And also they have the strongest abdominal muscle of any animal. Did you know that? Their abdominal muscles are rock solid. But the other one I think right now might be a miniature Highland cow because I'm telling you they're just, they're so, God.

Julie Granger (1:07:08)

I did know that.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:07:19)

think they were just living their best life. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:07:22)

Amazing.

They are living their best life. Truly. They get to roam. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:07:25)

I think so. They're really having their moment. Does that mean,

what does that say about me? Does that say, like, I want to have a moment? I don't know. just, they give people joy just by being themselves.

Julie Granger (1:07:38)

Well, did we not just talk about that? Yeah. I get joy when you're yourself, so there we go. Beautiful. OK, you're going to be a sloth and or a Highland cow. Amazing. All right, question two. if you could get a drink or a coffee with two people dead or alive, who are they? Why? And maybe what would you say or ask?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:07:40)

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (1:08:02)

Other than me, obviously.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:08:03)

Of course,

mean, duh. So, okay, you had asked about people I really admire. And the majority of the people on that list, I can get a coffee with whenever I want. So that doesn't feel fair to answer that way. But there's one on there who I can't necessarily yet get a coffee with whenever I want. And that's Dr. Jessica Nurik. And I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly, but

I follow her on Instagram and it's hard to admire someone in my world who you've never met because you don't really know what goes on. You're kind of admiring a facade and it's like, well, what is it that you admire? I would love to ask her just about, or just hear about her experience building this world of helping to debunk

Julie Granger (1:08:35)

Yeah.

All

Elizabeth Lyons (1:08:54)

all this nonsense medically and scientifically that's being put out there. That's just garbage. And how does she handle the naysayers? Because you know people are coming after her and how does she keep it? How does she have self-trust around what she's putting out? That level of kind of calm that she has. Another person who I would love to have coffee with and talk to is her name is Gaylee Alex.

Julie Granger (1:08:56)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:09:23)

And she is a DIYer who used to work on Wall Street and now does this thing where she does a lot of things, but she goes into a person's house. They have no consultation. The person moves out for like three to seven days. They don't talk about anything. They just give her a budget and their credit card and Gailey and her team just do it. And it's a surprise reveal. I, again, I only know what I see.

I've not, but I, her heart to me just feels massive. And I think she too probably gets a decent amount of backlash. Cause once you hit some level of popularity on the socials, it comes with the territory. And I just am so curious. She's gorgeous inside most importantly.

Julie Granger (1:10:10)

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:10:17)

She just seems like a gorgeous human being. Outwardly, she's a very attractive human. And what I think has been so fun lately is that she's been posting about her dating dilemmas because she's single and she's been on these dating apps. And the fact that men are saying stupid things to her on these apps is so awful and yet comforting. It's like, who, what?

Julie Granger (1:10:29)

Hehehehe

Right.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:10:43)

How do you blow it with somebody like, if you can blow it with somebody like Gaylee Alex, then I won't take it so, I'm not on the dating apps, but like, won't take it so personally that, you know, so I just, I really, I'd love to hear her whole story. Cause there's so much that I don't think we get. So those are the two that come to mind. The list could go on and on and on. mean, my grandfather passed.

Julie Granger (1:10:58)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're right.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:11:05)

15, 16, 17 years ago and being where I am now, he was an Episcopal priest and I would love nothing more than to sit down with him and have a conversation. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:11:20)

There's so much in this story arc, bringing it back to author terms, of like, it's less to me about your who and more the why that's so interesting and it's mirroring your own personal journey, but also like your own definition of what it is to, authentically self-expressed.

in an open uncorseted way, right? ⁓

Elizabeth Lyons (1:11:44)

Of course, this

is gonna be the... Have you thought of titling your book this?

Julie Granger (1:11:48)

No, but it's one of my brand concepts.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:11:50)

and came in love with it.

Julie Granger (1:11:52)

I have the title, think, and I will not take feedback on it.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:11:56)

fair, noted and accepted.

Julie Granger (1:12:00)

I actually, okay, you'll appreciate. I put the whole thing into AI just to like, I'm like, can you just make me an outline from this? Cause I'm not doing it. Brilliant. And I hadn't told it what I thought the title should be. And it told me what it thought the title should be. And it's what I wanted it to be. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, maybe you should title it this. And it was like, hmm. And I know, and you even say this like, don't get attached. And I'm like, I'm kind of attached to this.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:12:08)

Uh-huh.

Come on. Really?

Well, hey.

Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:12:28)

But it's not even emotionally attached. I'm like, it's just the right one and I won't be taking feedback. I won't be taking input on that. Amazing. Okay. Next question. Does pineapple belong on pizza?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:12:31)

That's just the right title. When you know, know, as they say.

I will not be taking suggestions.

Yeah. Okay.

fine with it.

it. Like, it is very controversial.

Julie Granger (1:12:45)

It's a very controversial topic for some, very polarizing.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:12:48)

Okay.

Julie Granger (1:12:48)

Honestly, if

we're gonna bring a polarizing conversation into the world, I feel like we need to bring that one into the world as a palate cleanser.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:12:53)

my gosh, for

sure. Like strawberries on pizza? I'm not feeling that. You know, there's certain things that I don't, but maybe if it's like a balsamic with no red sauce, maybe the strawberries would work. But then is it really pizza? Yeah, like kind of a, yeah. But no, I'm okay with pineapple. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I prefer it's not out of a can, but no, I'm just kidding. I don't care where it comes from.

Julie Granger (1:12:57)

⁓ no.

Kind of an appetizer pizza. Yeah, it's like a flatbread. Yeah.

Okay, love that.

Yeah, okay. Fresh pineapple, straight from

Hawaii. Okay. Must be flown in. Yeah. from your backyard garden. we go. Uh-huh. Love it. All right. Number four. I am a fly on the wall on an average Friday night for you. What do I see you doing?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:13:22)

from my backyard garden. I'll be growing those too. Yeah.

my God, I'm in pajamas. Probably have been wearing them all day. I have yet to shower, most likely, which I do do once a day, but sometimes at night. I'm watching TV, there's nothing I haven't seen, Julie, nothing on any channel I've seen at all. Yep, that's what I'm doing.

Julie Granger (1:13:48)

Mm-hmm.

OK, awesome.

I want you to know this is just about everyone's answer. And in my interview with my friend Kate that came out this week, she was like, oh, it's so lame. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like literally, we're on what episode? I don't know. I think you're going to be like 2021 or so. I'm like, so far, our small sample size of 20 people have said the same thing. So.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:13:58)

Really?

Yeah. Like

I, I'm, maybe it's my age of life. Maybe it's my stage of life. When I was in college, I really didn't go out either. I've just never been a big goer outer. So that's where I'm, I'm so happy there with my dog and who's annoying, but I love him so much and, fine by me.

Julie Granger (1:14:24)

Same. Yeah.

Yeah.

This is honestly why I started this podcast because I wanted to bring humanness into the conversation and like the real people and what really happens in the dark moments and the light moments and all in between and like this whole glamorizing of...

Elizabeth Lyons (1:14:40)

Please.

Look, I'm wearing yoga

shorts. Like this shirt is kind of nice, but I'm wearing yoga shorts and slippers right now. That's what's going down.

Julie Granger (1:14:56)

yeah. I'm in half mountain bike clothes and yeah, yeah. And need a shower. Definitely need a shower. Yeah, it's fine. We're just humans, humaning. All right, last one. You've kind of answered it, but I'm going to challenge you to come up with another. What's a hidden pleasure or obsession of yours that people might find surprising, weird, quirky, or questionable?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:15:02)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's good. We're just humans. Yeah.

Ugh.

people are surprised to find out like my degree is in Japanese. yeah, like what? So that's not really a quirky obsession, but it's just something where people go, wait, what?

Julie Granger (1:15:25)

Ooh, that's right, I wanted to ask you about that. Okay.

It was at one point.

You had to like it enough to get a degree in it. I would say that's maybe obsession, know, like, depending on who you ask.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:15:40)

and then have no idea what it's.

Depending, yeah, like.

Here's something interesting. Okay. I don't know if it's interesting, but here's something that's maybe a quirky obsession. When I go to like salvage stores or vintage stores and I find pictures, old black and white pictures of people or old letters that people have written, but specifically people, I have a really hard time leaving them there. So I have been known to bring them home and like I have been known to occasionally frame them, name these people. I don't know why it just really, it,

Julie Granger (1:15:54)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm, mmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:16:16)

hurts me that this is like someone's family. This is, and they're just in a pile in this. Like they, don't know. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:16:25)

Liz,

this is your fiction series. You're taking these letters and turning them into a whole series telling the story. You're like, I'm giving them names. inspired by a series of letters or like,

Elizabeth Lyons (1:16:29)

What do mean?

Maybe that's

what my character will do in my next book.

I'm like, God, okay. Don't get me off track. Cause I have to finish the current book. I already have two other book ideas after this one. And now you've given me another one. And Neely is like, damn it. If somebody else gives you an idea, I'm good. Neely is like one of my good friends here who's a author and she's her third book just came out she's fantastic. But she's like, get this damn thing written Liz.

Julie Granger (1:17:10)

we'll put it in the cauldron, put it in your writing queue. We've got the reading queue, but then there's the writing queue. Valid.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:17:12)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:17:17)

It's like a wartime historical fiction. This is what like.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:17:19)

See, I'm never gonna

write wartime though, know, like historical fiction, really. Yeah, it would be a romance or some sort of an adventure. Another book that I'm gonna work on if I ever get this one done has to do with a letter that the main character receives and how it takes her on this grand adventure. So maybe I can kind of work it in now.

Julie Granger (1:17:23)

of romance.

Hmm, okay.

Maybe it's already, yeah, it's already in the works. We're just taking it a layer deeper. You might have some real, a real source here. You're taking the non-fiction and making it the inspo for the fiction. Yeah, it's the muse.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:17:41)

percolating, percolating.

An actual one. Right. Right.

The Muse, if you will.

Julie Granger (1:17:58)

I mean, if it's that good, if it's good enough to frame it. But what's so cool is you're like, I'm trying to preserve these people's story. Of course you are.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:18:07)

It just bugs me. Like

I'm like this, if my, think about, you know, fast forward a hundred years or whatever. If my children's photos somehow escaped the family passing down and just ended up in some random store.

Julie Granger (1:18:13)

and

Yeah. But it comes back to your sort of the premise of you, which is you love hearing people's stories and helping them get them out there and wrapping words around. And whether it's a story told through pictures or letters or books, there's this sort of preserving it and taking it from its raw form and turning it into art and passing it along.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:18:24)

I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I love that. And I heard something the other day, I'm gonna have to remember who said it, it was Neil deGrasse, I think. Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know what saying? Make that sound right. Anyway, he said, the beauty of art is that if you put an idea out into the world and it's science, if you don't pursue it, someone will.

Julie Granger (1:18:59)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, you're there. Yeah, I what you're

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:19:17)

The

beauty of art is there's no one on the planet who can create what you would create the way you would create it. No one. And that's why with books, you can tell the same story over and over again because it's not the same story.

Julie Granger (1:19:25)

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting you say that. Because you've said that before, and I took it to heart. It's such a great thing for overcoming your inertia to get started. And I was thinking about this nonfiction book I just read, a self-help book that has great stories in it. And I remember closing the book and being like, you know, the like,

Elizabeth Lyons (1:19:44)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Julie Granger (1:20:02)

how to self-help part didn't do it for me, but the stories do.

And it's the how-to self-help part to me felt like recycled, Psych Lit you know? And I was like, nah. That I didn't get anything from that. The stories, though, are imprinted and burned in my brain.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:20:17)

Mm-hmm.

And you never know what someone's going to take because somebody else might read that same book and not resonate with the stories, but love the prompts, right? Which doesn't mean that you have to have stories. You have to have prompts. I'm a firm believer in story in nonfiction because I think it helps the reader figure out. Yeah, it's like a, it's a visual. you can, it's illustrative, but, I mean, unless it's a scientific book, but most of us aren't reading pure scientific books, unless we're in med school or whatnot, but, yeah.

Julie Granger (1:20:29)

That's right. That's right.

totally.

lands in your body a little bit. ⁓

Elizabeth Lyons (1:20:51)

I hear you.

Julie Granger (1:20:51)

But I think

that to your point, it's like when artfully used, the story is what makes it yours in that type of how-to teaching, authoritative type of thing versus you just took it out of a psych textbook and regurgitated it. And I'd say this one was done fairly well in doing that. But again, what I took away was the story and what someone else is going to take away is the prompts or the how-tos.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:20:58)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, and

not to pile on, like, or not to add any more content onto this, but that's one of the beauties of being really invested in your own nonfiction, because when a lot of times, first time authors who are writing nonfiction will lean on another expert. So they'll constantly be referencing Brene Brown, Mel Robbins. You can list them all off.

And so my encouragement to them is often the reader, if the reader wants to hear what they think about this, they'll read their books. They want to know what you think about this. And so it gives them permission to tell their story, which then shows how they learned to frame this differently in their head. Even if it was kicked off by something Brene Brown said, how did that then make its way into your ecosystem and part of who you are and how you move through the world?

Julie Granger (1:21:46)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's not a term paper.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:22:07)

It is not a term paper.

Julie Granger (1:22:07)

Yes.

Where you need to have your, I mean, you need to have, you need to give credit and site obviously where that's important. And that's not the point, right? To like, I just think of like my college thesis which was basically a term paper to prove a point but I'm referencing all the research and all the things, you know.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:22:13)

Obviously.

Bye!

And the

point that people are often trying to prove when they're constantly citing other experts is that they know what they're talking about. counterintuitively, they're actually, it's an oxymoron because they're actually saying that they're not comfortable enough sharing their insights yet, which is just a point along the journey for many, many, many, many people recognizing that and then working through that.

Julie Granger (1:22:43)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, interesting, interesting. Well, we could do this all day and for about another several weeks.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:22:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, we could. Right.

Julie Granger (1:23:00)

but you've got sourdough to start tonight, you promised. And we are waiting for it. I'm gonna need to hear about this.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:23:00)

Yeah, sure do. I'm ready. You just get yourself on over to Instagram. I'm surely

going to be documenting this in my stories.

Julie Granger (1:23:11)

But what I love to ask everyone is if you could whisper in the ear of a part of you that was younger or newer or more naive in the process, maybe in one of those sinking moments, what would you, what's a piece of advice that the current version of you would whisper to

Elizabeth Lyons (1:23:28)

Something I've been doing recently is I've been journaling and I journal as the current me to the future me. And then I journal back the future me to the current me. So I think, you know, there's the WW like WW whatever. I think it originated with like JD, right? For what would Jesus do? But I'm like, I think I would ask myself at a much earlier, like the whisper would be what would future Elizabeth do?

Julie Granger (1:23:34)

I do that too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ooh. Yeah, I wish I'd gotten that advice earlier in life. And like future Julie, not what the world says future Julie needs to be, but actual me.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:23:56)

Okay.

Like if you can see yourself in the future version of yourself that you aspire to, what would she... Now the caveat of that is that way back when that I saw a future version of myself that was created based on my interpretation of what she should look like and be like, right? But so this is assuming that's not true. Otherwise it's just the cliche, everything will be fine.

Julie Granger (1:24:24)

You're right, you're right.

right? Yeah.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:24:33)

You know, you're

always okay in the present moment. And as someone who lives in the future all the time, it is a constant effort for me to remind myself, just you're fine. It's the present moment, you're fine.

Julie Granger (1:24:42)

for sure.

So interesting as someone who lives in the future, i.e. that's the definition of anxiety, right? Where like, but your advice is to listen to the version of you in the future. And it's like you're taking the, it's the double-edged sword. It's like you're taking the thing that sometimes you wield against yourself and it's becoming the thing that cuts through the noise and is actually.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:25:00)

Right.

Julie Granger (1:25:13)

calming your system or giving you clarity or whatever it is you need in the moment of the present moment.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:25:18)

It's almost like you have to learn how to use the future to your advantage, which is a process for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julie Granger (1:25:21)

Yeah, that's right.

That's a process for sure.

But the intention is there, the energy is there to try and use the future. It's just being wielded against you in a way.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:25:29)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Like use

it for good, not for, my God, what if. Switch the what if.

Julie Granger (1:25:38)

Amazing.

Thank you. I love that. All right. Well, what's the best way for everyone to get in touch with you?

Elizabeth Lyons (1:25:40)

Thank you.

Either my website, which is elizabethlyons.com or publishaprofitablebook.com. They go to the same place. Or Instagram is really where I'm most active. Elizabeth Lyons author.

Julie Granger (1:25:57)

All right, I'll put all that in the show notes for everyone to get connected. And everyone go follow her on Instagram because we got to keep up with the sourdough starter promise. We're holding you accountable now. It's going to be a couple of weeks when this comes out, so you better have receipts. No pressure.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:25:58)

Yay!

The journey. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that.

God. Okay.

we go. I'm going right now. I'm getting out my scale. It's happening.

Julie Granger (1:26:19)

It's okay if it doesn't work out. We'll still love you.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:26:22)

Look, I've got begin again tattooed on my inner forearm. So that's what we'll do if, if, if I have to.

Julie Granger (1:26:25)

you

Okay,

perfect, great. All right, well thanks for being here. All right, bye.

Elizabeth Lyons (1:26:31)

Thank you.