The Power of Being a Niche Switcher — TaVona Denise on Reinvention, Voice, and Trusting the Pivot

When you’ve built a life that looks successful on paper but still feels like a tight corset, reinvention can feel like both rebellion and relief.

 In this candid, laughter-filled, deeply honest conversation, Julie sits down with her longtime friend and fellow former PT, TaVona Boggs — Master Certified Coach, fractional CRO, and host of Breaking Protocol — to explore what happens when your identity, career, and even your literal voice all demand a new evolution.

Together, they unpack:

• The bravery of letting go when something no longer fits
• The “niche switcher” wound and how it weaponizes multidimensionality
• The body’s role in reinvention (including losing her voice for 10 weeks)
• The grief and power of midlife, perimenopause, and changing identities
• Why athletes often make the best entrepreneurs — and how pain tolerance, curiosity, and trust build resilience

Equal parts practical and soulful, this episode is a permission slip for every high-achieving woman afraid that changing direction means starting over. As TaVona reminds us:

“You can’t listen to the world. You have to listen to yourself.”

03:15 – Letting Go and Being a ‘Niche Switcher’
 

07:28 – Reinvention and Becoming a Fractional CRO
 

12:10 – Listening to Yourself Over the World
 

15:15 – The Rule-Breaker’s Defiance
 

20:21 – The Right of Exile
 

24:36 – Losing Her Voice: When the Body Speaks
 

29:02 – Titrating Truth & Reclaiming the Voice
 

33:12 – Joy, Aliveness & Counter-Culture
 

36:23 – Enter the CRO Era
 

43:05 – The Athlete Archetype
 

46:23 – Identity, Loss & Integration
 

56:24 – Closing Reflections
 

Love what you hear? Learn more from Tavona at @tavonadenise on IG

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Transcript

Julie Granger (00:58)

my friends, you are in for such a treat today. I get to sit down with my friend and colleague, the brilliant and tenacious Tavonna Boggs. If you don't already know her, Tavona is a master certified coach, a fractional CRO, which I'll have her explain to you what that means, and a former PT like myself, which I love that we both have made the leap into the coaching world. She helps wellness clinic owners unlock hidden revenues. They can grow without burning themselves out. What a wonderful thing.

She's also the host of the Breaking Protocol podcast, a puzzle enthusiast, love that. And someone I can always count on for real talk and contagious laughter and just keeping it, like, I love that real talk thing. Like you are so good at keeping it real. It's something I love about you. Tavonna and I have known each other for a while. I think that like we first met.

like almost like word of mouth through social realizing we were both PTs in Atlanta venturing out of the PT world but somehow we've never crossed paths in real life. Is that how you remember it?

TaVona Denise (02:04)

I think so, yeah. And then we formed League Girls Fast in that other program.

Julie Granger (02:06)

Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Yeah, in the coaching

world and then literally IRL in Mexico, like for the first time. Had to go to another country to actually cross paths in person. But today we're going to dive into her journey, which she has a wonderful story to share. So welcome, Tavonna. Thank you for being here.

TaVona Denise (02:17)

Yes.

Thank you for having me, Julie. It's always, always a pleasure. Like, I'm just thinking about walking down Fifth Avenue in Playa, in Playa del Carmen, Mexico, and just all the conversations that we had before then and since. And so I anticipate that today is going to be no different.

Julie Granger (02:33)

I know.

Yeah.

No different. And a girl after my own heart, someone who shifts from thing to thing to thing and makes it work in life, in career, as a nomad, travel, all kinds of stuff. And I just love that part of your personality so much. But with that, in life and business, my first question for you is, what are you most proud of right now?

TaVona Denise (03:15)

What I'm most proud of right now is actually letting something go that wasn't serving me anymore. And I think it's sort of a double-edged sword where in your company as someone who does go from thing to thing and make it work, we see it as, you know, maybe even a badge of honor or what have you. But there was a point in my career where a colleague

called me is so funny because it feels very kindergarten-ish, but I was called a niche switcher. And for whatever reason, that really like a knife to the gut or to the soul, it was almost as I think about it in real time back then, it was like...

a gut, like a blow to my personality of that. And so it really, for many, many, years, any time I wanted to evolve, which is what humans are designed to do, or pivot or change, or whatever, right? However you want to frame it, I would either...

Julie Granger (03:58)

Yeah.

TaVona Denise (04:15)

consciously or unconsciously be held back because of that statement making and my interpretation of it meaning that I wasn't supposed to do that. So.

Julie Granger (04:26)

my gosh, it's like weaponizing the very essence of you and using it against you. Like taking this, what I see as a strength, you know, and someone taking it and turning it into an insult. I totally resonate with the knife to the gut and the feeling of it stopping you from doing the very thing that makes you you.

TaVona Denise (04:47)

And I, know, on some levels, I'm a little envious of the people who they find their thing. They stay at the company. Like I have a cousin that just retired. She'd been at the company for 26 years and three years before that and interned. And I was like, the same company, not just the same industry, but the same company. And there is something to be said for people like that. But as my mom always says, it takes all kinds of people to make this world go around. And so if we

Julie Granger (04:54)

Yeah.

TaVona Denise (05:16)

or a society or a world of people who would just get in one thing and do it until the end of time, like the world, I just don't think the world would function very well.

Julie Granger (05:28)

Yeah, I told first of all, wise of your mother. My grandmother said, in a good world, different. Like, it like that sort of like Southern, you know, whatever. Because it brings such variety to the world. And I feel like we're speaking to the idea of innovation. if we all did the same thing, we wouldn't innovate. We wouldn't have an iPhone. We wouldn't have social media.

You know, if you stick to the thing you said you were going to do, we wouldn't have all these things that are good and maybe not so good sometimes. But you know what I mean? Like, but I think of like you and the people you've served in the niche switching and they wouldn't have been served if you're like, I'm just going to stay as a clinic director of a PT clinic. Like you would have helped those people, but then there wouldn't have been all the other people, know? So, Hmm. Hmm. Wow. That's tough. And I have definitely.

TaVona Denise (06:12)

100%.

Julie Granger (06:18)

really can relate to the hesitation to switch again. And like, so much work, I'm doing it right now.

TaVona Denise (06:22)

Cause it's so much work.

It is so much work.

And so it's just like, you have to get over whatever issues that you have, like my, they're going to think I'm flimsy or whatever thoughts that I have associated with that. And then you're like, man, I just got this thing to work and I'm going to change again. And then there's all this other work. And so like, I have to grapple with those things. And so to the outside world, it looks like, she just switched when they don't realize it's usually at least a six month process internally and behind the scenes before.

Julie Granger (06:37)

Yep.

⁓ yeah.

TaVona Denise (06:58)

the outer world can see it because I have to do all of this back and forth internally and in the back end of my business or whatever I'm working on.

Julie Granger (07:05)

Yeah,

it's so much work. There is credit to the people who don't switch because there's so much work. It's mindset work, there's heart work, there's soul work, there's literal brass tacks, technical work, like change your funnel, change your website. There's so much work to it. It's worth it. But it, ugh, it's hard. Yeah. Thank you for speaking to this. Yeah.

TaVona Denise (07:28)

Yes.

Yeah, then owning it. Yeah, mean, and then owning

it on the other side, you you wanted me to explain what a CRO is to everyone. And so that is the latest evolution, which is sort of like an evolution slash full circle or upward cylindrical moment, because it I realized that, and this is part of the bravery of letting things go, that I was working with a group of people who couldn't fully

Julie Granger (07:37)

Yeah.

TaVona Denise (07:58)

extract the value from or fully appreciate everything that I brought to them because of my unique background as a clinic director, physical therapy contract, business owner, a ⁓ coaching business owner, master, like all of the things that make me me and all the evolutions and stuff. And so what I finally came to realize was me working with startups and solopreneurs wasn't serving them or me because

Julie Granger (08:05)

Hmm.

TaVona Denise (08:28)

because

they couldn't fully extract the full value from what I was sharing with them. And so as, and going a little bit further into what's happened recently, as I lost my voice for almost three months, two and a half months, there in the silence, I...

Julie Granger (08:33)

Hmm.

TaVona Denise (08:46)

fully understood that instead of being frustrated with them or exhausted, it's like, it's okay. Like you're amazing, they're amazing, and maybe this is not the best match anymore. At some point it was. It did serve me, it did serve them. I know for a fact there was a reason I did all of this work in helping ⁓ business owners with marketing and sales, and now who can I best serve with that? And so I take all

of that from directing clinics, having my own PT business, learning and helping businesses with marketing and sales and bring it together into what's called a fractional CRO or a chief revenue officer. And how that is different from a chief operating officer or a chief marketing officer or a chief financial officer is that I look at a business across the board and help them figure out how to maximize their revenue with what they

already have and then grow. So I have something called the revenue maximizer and I'm looking at for a wellness clinic because that group of people is usually cash based because they practice on the health care side, not the sick care side and insurance doesn't want to pay for that. So they have to know how to market and sell and they have to be on top of retention and things like that. So I'm looking across the board and actually also using my skills as a physical therapist to see, okay, why isn't this

Julie Granger (09:55)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (10:11)

business moving like it should or if it is there's some businesses that they have tons of patience but it hurts when it moves because they're burning out so I'm looking at it from that standpoint.

Julie Granger (10:24)

really holistic.

I'd never heard of this position until I read what you wrote on your intake survey for this. And I was like, tell me more. This is so you though. This is what I love about it. Yeah. Wow. How cool. And how lucky are they to have someone I love that it's like you're taking that strength and that part of your story that

TaVona Denise (10:35)

I know, it feels good!

Julie Granger (10:48)

It's like you close the door on it for you actually being a clinic director or practicing as a PT or being in the weeds, you know, of client care, plus all the other niches you've been in and you've combined them into one really supportive role that can impact companies extremely holistically.

TaVona Denise (11:08)

Yeah, I mean, it's exciting because it's how I've always looked at business. I mean, I just can't help it. And I imagine when you are doing more business coaching work, you can't help it either. Like when you're a physical therapist, we learn about all the systems and how they integrate and how if one is dysfunctional or completely broken, it affects the rest of the chain. And so it's literally like physical therapy for people's businesses. And it's pretty cool.

Julie Granger (11:27)

Hmm.

It really is.

so cool. So cool. Good for you. Okay. So you reinvented into that. You mentioned something about your mom. You mentioned the voice being lost. We'll get to all of that. I'm curious about this threat of reinvention though. you, I know somewhere in here, you've been hanging with your mom a bit more. I know you moved to Mexico. We talked about that. You've left the clinic director role. like what, what?

Would you say are messages you've learned along the way about listening to your own definition of what like you're supposed to be doing with your life versus what the world tells you?

TaVona Denise (12:10)

You can't listen to the world. You have to listen to yourself.

When I became the clinic director, I was like super stoked. was originally an assistant clinic director and then became the acting clinic director when the group director left. And so was running the thing by myself because he was never there. And then they moved somebody in that position instead of moving me up permanently. And I was like, okay, I took one for the team, took one on the chin. And then when it was time for my brother to graduate,

Julie Granger (12:25)

Mm.

TaVona Denise (12:42)

graduate from NYU with his masters, they were like, you can't use your PTO to go.

I just decided to quit. I was like, okay, you need 30 days notice. I have about 40 days before this thing happens. And so I'm going to quit and start my own contracting company. And that year I made like twice what I was making as a clinic director because I listened to myself and not to them. And so I think...

Julie Granger (13:09)

Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (13:15)

It's scary when you are, like when you're literally going against what the authorities are telling you to do and or what everybody else around you is doing. It's very, very scary. But as you know, it's also very rewarding, even if it doesn't work out how you want it to. Because like that one was amazing. That, like.

It was so easy. And doing the same amount of revenue in my coaching business was not easy at all. It took way longer. It was much harder. It did not work out like I thought it to initially. And it was still amazing because now I can see in hindsight, it brought me to where I am now.

Julie Granger (13:39)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love it. It's like these stepping stones. You you think it's gonna be one thing, even the clinic director role. And then, no, I'm sorry, you can't use your PTO. What? Like, why? Why not? Why do you get to decide what I can use it for and not use it for? And then you take it and you go do something where you match the revenue, but then you open coaching and it's harder.

And now it's gotten you to this role that's so holistic and combined with all of those stepping stones together.

TaVona Denise (14:27)

Yeah, I mean, think into part to kind of round out part of your original question of like not listening to others, we were talking about not listening to others definition of success as well. And I think for a long time, I played into that, okay, you're supposed to go to school and you're supposed to get a job and you're supposed to move up the chain and you're supposed to get married and you're supposed to have a house and a nice car. And I did all of that except the marriage part. And I was sitting there one day and I was looking at that big old house like,

Julie Granger (14:52)

you

TaVona Denise (14:57)

do I have all this house? It's just me. And I let it go and I moved into the city, single Freddie Domingo and it has been the best decision ever. And then the same thing about moving to Mexico. It's almost like...

Julie Granger (15:05)

Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (15:15)

there is a defiance that I didn't realize was there. Like I look at what everybody else is doing, and I don't know that I necessarily do this consciously, but it's like when I look at what everybody else is doing, I don't wanna do that. I just do something else.

Julie Granger (15:28)

Mm-hmm.

Well, you've got that innovator energy, right? And I think that there's something to be said for that coming back to what we said earlier. And it's maybe not conscious in that you're like, I'm doing it for the sake of being different. That's an exhausting way to live, right? Because in effect, there's a sameness in that. I know people do that, right? They're sort of always trying to be counter-cultural, but there's a sameness and always trying to be, it becomes predictable.

TaVona Denise (15:54)

You're right.

Julie Granger (15:58)

Right? It becomes the brand. And it's actually still responding to what everyone else is doing instead of listening to your heart. But what I love about it is there's this rule breaking defiance, this, you know what? I don't have to believe that narrative. I don't need to have the big house. Like, what does that mean? You know, why? This doesn't make sense.

TaVona Denise (16:04)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (16:18)

or I don't have to live here, I can go to Mexico for a bit. Cool. There's something about that that's like written on the story of your soul, you know, that it just happens. I love that.

So when you take a leap or when you diverge from sort of the mainstream, how does it feel? What's going on?

TaVona Denise (16:37)

I think there is a moment of defiance because there's usually an inciting incident where I have to make some kind of decision. Am I going to stay in line or am I going to diverge? So I think there is that moment.

but quickly on the heels. Like I'm a pretty decisive person. So I know what it feels like in my body when I've decided something. Meaning like, cede being the root word to cut off or to kill off. So I know what that feels like, but there's also a fear.

because we are tribal and that's how we survive. And so there has to be, so there's the defiance, then there's the fear, and then there is the courage to act in spite of the fear and like the trusting that I would not have gotten such a strong urge to do something counter-cultural or against the norm or different or whatever if I wasn't going to be okay in the end.

Julie Granger (17:38)

Ooh, dang. Okay, let me see if I can capture that. So there's a defiance. Some inciting incident. For me, I can relate to that. There's almost like an anger, mm-mm, no, uh-uh, that's not right. There's like this fire that brews and then fear, because you're like, crap. Like I love how you named that word tribal.

and you're like putting up against each other the drive for being authentic to your soul and the human need for belonging. I talk about this a lot. And usually what we're wired for is to choose belonging, regardless of authenticity. Like that's where the disconnect happens. We're gonna stay in line because of the people, right? Because of people. It's not actually because of money or all these other things we think breathe safety. It's the people.

And so then there's a courage in spite of the fear of losing the people, we'll say, the belonging, right? And a trust that if this showed up in your soul, if this whisper showed up to go against the norm of the mainstream of the people, that you'll be okay.

with the people, right? Like either you get new people or those people actually end up figuring they're okay with you. you don't get exiled and outcast completely.

TaVona Denise (18:56)

All right, mean, 100 % of the time, it's like that. Whenever I've moved to another city, I have to break the belonging that I currently have and trust that there will be other people to belong to and belong with in the new place. And it has absolutely been like that. But I think there has to be a trust.

there. I mean, even we're talking about moving, but I just even think of the pivots that I've made. Yeah, you have to trust that this pivot is going to work out even if it doesn't look exactly like doesn't work out in the way that you thought it would, that it's still going to work out.

Julie Granger (19:19)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Oof, there's such an okayness there. It's gonna be okay. I was ever been reading this book, I just finished it and she talks about the rights of women, like, you know, sort of going through life and all those kinds of things. And there's what she calls the right of exile, which is you have to almost self exile in order to find your belonging, like you've got to kind of like stray from that norm in order to really find belonging first with yourself, but then with people.

And there's an okayness in that, but it's supposed to feel scary. It's supposed to feel like, shoot, I'm cutting off my leg. And do I really want to do this? Or something like it's supposed to feel like something really disastrous might happen. And if it doesn't, then you're not actually really moving into yourself.

TaVona Denise (20:21)

Interesting. That's interesting.

Julie Granger (20:23)

And

part of that is moving into yourself and therefore your tribe, like your actual real tribe. And it might become a chosen tribe, but that's where you truly belong. And Brene Brown talks about that. think it's like, you belong to yourself and then you belong to others. It's gotta be a both, you know?

TaVona Denise (20:43)

Wow. I mean, think if someone's listening to this and they're like, well, I want to make some changes, but I'm afraid. And that feeling like it's almost like you're chopping off your own foot. It's too intense. I think sometimes it's helpful. Guest trust is always available to us. But sometimes you might just give yourself a little bit of an out. For example, when I decided to move to Mexico and ended up being there for three years before I

ended up having to come back and be a caregiver. But the out that I gave myself is I'm gonna get rid of most of the stuff and put some of the stuff in storage that couldn't easily be replaced if I came back.

Julie Granger (21:23)

Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (21:25)

That was my out. So it gave me a little bit of assurance that I think sometimes people think that if they make that move, it's irreversible. And that's also part of what scares people, I think.

Julie Granger (21:35)

God.

Well, you talked

about like, what was the word seeds? It's like cutting off, right? And it's in the root of decision. I've had this discussion with Susan Clinton, I don't know if you know Susan, other PT physio. And she was like, I've been playing with the idea of using the word choice instead of decision, because choice has this fluidity to it of this, it's flexible, I could go back, I could go forward. It's not permanent, right?

TaVona Denise (21:43)

see they, yeah, the root word.

yeah.

Julie Granger (22:06)

Whereas decision has this permanence energetically and even in its etymology, right? And I love that you had this tether, this sort of tether to what was known and what felt like home with physical things, right? But I think there's an emotional component to that, right? And even a spiritual component of, I can always go back. I feel like that was me when I left PT. I had to give myself the, you can always go back.

You don't want to, but you can and it will be okay. And I think that was not just about the actual physical act of doing PT or the physical job, but I think it was about the people and about the belonging I'd experienced and the reputation I created and the passion I had. I think there was this like, always need to have a tether, just this like little string. And it gets thinner and thinner and thinner the more I move away from it, but it's still always there.

TaVona Denise (22:56)

I 100 % agree and I think the other piece of that too is the trust becomes easier the more you do the scary thing.

Julie Granger (23:05)

Yeah, gotta get your reps in.

TaVona Denise (23:07)

Yeah, because in the beginning, it feels so big and it feels like death or something of permanence. And the more you do it, the more you teach yourself that you can do scary things. And even if they don't work out 100 % like you want them to, it's not the end of the world. You make a new decision or you make a new choice and keep moving with the new knowledge that you gain from the previous choice.

Julie Granger (23:28)

Yeah.

I love that. Getting your reps in with trust. It's like, gotta get up and swing the bat. You might miss. You might strike out a few times, but you also might hit a home run. And the more you learn how to hit the home run, the more you hit the home run, you hit the ball more and more and more.

TaVona Denise (23:47)

Yeah, I mean, and even I used to play softball. Even the best batters have a statistically crappy percentage.

Julie Granger (23:55)

Right. Right.

30 % is considered good, you know?

TaVona Denise (24:00)

Right,

but 30 % of school is considered awful.

Julie Granger (24:03)

Not good.

I think about that. I actually love this analogy because recently I've been reemerging in a new era and I feel like this era reemergence is going on for years at this point, but it's fine because that's how we evolve as humans. And when I have those moments of, it feels vulnerable to say this thing or own this thing. I'm like, Julie, go swing the bat. Like 30 % is considered good. Come on now.

Like just get up there and swing it. You might miss and that's okay too. okay. I love this. So speaking of trust.

TaVona Denise (24:29)

I love that.

Julie Granger (24:36)

And you mentioned like losing your voice. You've alluded to that. And I feel like that's been a part of your recent story that has come in. We even talked about it before we came on. Walk us through what happened with losing your voice, what it forced you to look at, how it shifted your relationship with your body and what you want, all that good stuff.

TaVona Denise (25:00)

Well, like some evil twisted storm came. And like I mentioned briefly, I currently am the caregiver for my mom and.

Julie Granger (25:03)

You

TaVona Denise (25:11)

I don't know if you've ever done caregiving, neither one of us, you and I have kids. And for me, that was very intentional. And so being in a caregiving position has been completely like it's turned my world upside down. And there gets to be a point where, at least for me, I needed a break.

Julie Granger (25:18)

Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (25:34)

And I said to myself, I'm going back to Mexico because that's my happy place. And in Atlanta, I went to Atlanta first. And somewhere between the different airports and hotels and all of these things, I got an upper respiratory infection. In the last two days of my stay, I lost my voice. I couldn't talk. OK, you know, I've seen people get laryngitis. It'll go away in a couple of days. No problem.

So I get back, five days goes by, I still can't make a sound like no, no sound comes out of my voice. And I'm like, this is not good.

And I go to urgent care, they give me some MedDraw dose pack, high dose steroids, and that doesn't do it. And I used to work in occupational medicine and the MedDraw dose pack was like the miracle drug. was like, when you got that thing, patients with back injuries, were turning cartwheels afterwards.

Julie Granger (26:23)

The go to. yeah.

Right?

TaVona Denise (26:30)

After that, I still couldn't talk. I'm like, this is not good. So now we're at two weeks and then four weeks and then six weeks. And I'm thinking, uh-oh.

this is, don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I think because you and I talk about spirituality and things, I think there was the upper respiratory infection was the straw that broke the camel's back. I think there was a lot of things that I had been holding in and not saying that I needed and wanted to say and or shouldn't say, because it was the both sides of the coin on that. And just a lot of stress of caregiving, you know, and so.

that and on top of that.

I think that I was kind of trying to force slash ignore some things that I was seeing in my business. And again, what I was talking about, the market that I was working with and unwilling to slow down long enough to really look at it and say, okay, what is it that I want to do? Because it's not like everybody else is doing in this industry.

And so all of those things together in a big old pot took my voice out and I got it back about 10 weeks, two and a half months later. It's still not a hundred percent like it was before, cause I'm a singer, but at least I can speak now. it's, it's always a reminder to think about how I'm using my voice, if I'm using it, what I'm saying.

Julie Granger (28:04)

Okay, before you even got to that spiritual point, I wrote down voiceless. Like just as a cue to be like, whoa, okay, there's definitely some energetic spiritual thing going on here. I'm so glad you named that and are like aware of it. No surprise, of course you're aware of that.

TaVona Denise (28:20)

Well, totally, because with all of my, like, you know, with my master coach certification, I also have a somatic coach certification. And so we, have done a ton in therapy, blah, blah. I've done a ton of somatic processing in my life. And where I personally feel it and have felt it is in my throat. It always feels like someone's shoved two, two hot dogs down my throat and I'm suffocating and about to choke.

Julie Granger (28:33)

Mm-hmm.

It's best image.

TaVona Denise (28:47)

Yeah, because that's what it feels like. so, yeah, so it

Julie Granger (28:50)

It's dry. Yeah, like I totally get it.

TaVona Denise (28:53)

was no surprise to me there. It was just like, no, you can't stuff it down anymore. You can't not say the thing. Yeah.

Julie Granger (29:02)

Brilliant. And I feel like this is such, speaking of semantics, I'm totally into it too, as a coach, the part about like what's being swallowed, what's being ignored, what's unsaid, and the other side of it, what wants to be claimed and stated? What do you really want? But here's the but, right? We were talking about the leap and the courage and the moving in spite of the fear and shifting horses in midstream, all of those concepts. And in this case,

It wasn't just a one and done leap. It wasn't an overnight thing. Your body was like, actually, we're going to titrate this slowly. You don't just get to decide what you want and then use your voice and claim it and go. We're actually going to take this real slow, which tells me, not to analyze the situation, but it tells me how important this next step has been, how rooted it is in your soul.

TaVona Denise (29:57)

Yeah, I never thought about it like that, for sure I have not. Like as I was talking to people, they're like, wait, you still can't talk? You still don't have a voice? And I was like, yeah, it's very frustrating. I really literally thought I was never gonna talk again.

Julie Granger (30:12)

Yeah, it's like, OK, like from a breast text, if I'm looking at this on the physical level or like when you and I have worked with people who are starting businesses or doing a rebrand or whatever it is, know, and even me just being like, God, this has been years of a rebrand, you know, and I still feel like I'm finding like I guess I could energetically say I'm finding my voice, you know, and we could go. We have friends who are great at messaging and like, all right, we're going to identify the message, but that doesn't

It's like that doesn't seal it. know, it's like you've got to have the whole full body somatic safety. Like, all right, we're ready to put this out in the world. like, just, the fact that it's so titrated and slow for you is it's not just about your larynx and your voice box and the physical stuff. It's not just about claiming what you want. It's about everything coming together integratively, holistically to...

including your whole career past and every identity you've carried to create this next path for you that sounds like it's going to serve you so well and the people so well that you support.

TaVona Denise (31:23)

Yeah, it's wild. Just in the short amount of time that it's been, I can genuinely say this is the most fun I've had in my business in a very long time. I mean, and it's hard. It's hard. It's just like the puzzles. Putting together the thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. It's hard.

Julie Granger (31:32)

I'm so happy for you. Yeah, right.

TaVona Denise (31:42)

And sometimes I gotta walk away for a minute and come back and then I can see clearly again, ⁓ that piece that goes there. It's the same thing. It's fun and it's challenging and it's rewarding and it's not easy. Like, no, but I'm enjoying myself. And that's the main, that's same thing.

Julie Granger (31:48)

Mmm.

Amen to that.

Like, just even claiming that it's fun. I'm enjoying myself. That's a countercultural thing to claim in many circles. Sounds crazy, shouldn't we all enjoy ourselves in our work? But like, I think that if we really get down to it, I just read this this morning in a somatic book about, it was a vignette about a client.

like a therapist was talking about working with a client with somatic work. And she was talking about how when the client system was clocking joy or aliveness, she would have somatic parts that would come in and shut that down because it didn't feel safe for her to fully embody being fully alive because when she did, people would tear her down or question her or say, oh, look at you switching again, kind of take these.

really deeply embodied parts of her, like the strengths and use them against her as an insult. And so as humans, like I hear, I just encounter this all the time that it can be so challenging to actually step into your joy and your aliveness and own that and say it out loud.

TaVona Denise (33:12)

The immediate phrase that popped into my mind is like misery loves company and the whole belonging piece. And so for whatever reason that seems to be a predominant belief or standard for a lot of humans. And so it can feel very much like we've been talking about this whole time is counterculture or separation to not only feel but express the joy.

Julie Granger (33:17)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I feel like that's the bulk of the work that I'm now helping people move into, which is fun for me, is like, what really makes you feel fully alive? And most people don't know. They don't know. And that's the journey we go on. We don't actually know where we're going. Sort of like, you know what you don't want? know what? It's driving in fog.

TaVona Denise (33:51)

Yeah.

driving in fog is how I call it. You drive in fog, just drive

and you'll see a few feet in front of you and the road will be revealed as you continue to move.

Julie Granger (34:07)

such a good metaphor. I think about the client, client and if she's listening she knows who she is. She just signed on to work with me on a like a long program and I was like, all right, let's do this. Are you cool with not knowing where you're going? Because I'm cool with it. And she was like, yeah, I guess, I guess it's like darkness in front of me. But there's this trust of it's on it's somewhere within the darkness, but I can't, it's kind of like swinging the bat. The metaphor it's like, I can't

discover it unless I start moving towards it with trust that it will be okay.

Hmm. Hmm. Amazing. I also just read this morning, speaking of like the physical act of losing your voice, I read the study about women in perimenopause having their voice change.

TaVona Denise (34:54)

Really? No, I need to see that.

Julie Granger (34:55)

Have you read this study? I'm gonna send it to you.

It was just released about changes in the larynx, changes in the voice box, but somatically speaking, I'm like, here's the science backing up what we already know about the somatic experience of the more emotional and spiritual evolution that happens in midlife, where you're finding your voice, you're not putting up with people's bullshit anymore, you're figuring out what you want and who you are and setting boundaries and somehow rage comes into the picture, sometimes for the first time in your life.

And with that, your voice is changing, right? Like your spiritual voice, but also your physical voice. And that can show up as voice disorders.

TaVona Denise (35:35)

Well, yeah, in the middle of all of this, hot flashes came in and it was like, here we are. Welcome to midlife officially. Totally.

Julie Granger (35:39)

honey. Welcome. It's an initiation.

The fire, the literal fire. The study didn't talk about the somatic and emotional implications, but it did talk about the physical. as someone who's lived in the physical world, right, the physical therapy world, it's like, you and I both know that sometimes it takes science a minute to catch up to what we know intuitively is happening. And I feel like this is a great example of that. I'll send you the study.

And if anyone else wants it, send me a message and I'll send you the link to it. Okay. So.

What excites you most about this next chapter that you're in? What can you already feel is percolating? You're like, this is fun. I'm enjoying it. What specifically is stoking that fire?

TaVona Denise (36:23)

Okay.

The sentence that immediately popped in my head was, this is gonna help so many people. Because I didn't, I too didn't know that there existed such a thing as a chief revenue officer. I was just talking about what I wanted to do and what I was good at and the parts that I wanted to own. And they were like, you know that's called a chief revenue officer, right? I was like.

tell me more and just going down the rabbit hole and I'm like, yeah, this is what I've been doing this whole time. I just didn't know what it was called. So I'm excited from that standpoint because a lot of our colleagues who are just really amazing at what they do as practitioners, just like in many of the other service-based businesses, they are good at the service and maybe not so good at the business. ⁓ And I just love being able to say I love

Julie Granger (36:47)

you

Yeah.

TaVona Denise (37:14)

that part. I love puzzles. I love figuring things out. Let me take that off in your hands so that you can be amazing at running the clinic and creating a vision and managing the people and that kind of thing. So I'm just really, really excited about it helping people. And I think the other part is as things are being revealed so quickly, which to your point, I think that's also why the titration of my voice coming back took so long because you know me, I'm a quick start. So

Julie Granger (37:20)

Yeah.

TaVona Denise (37:44)

Once I've made that decision, it's like balls to the wall all in. But on the heels of that, really, as I'm doing this work with clinics, seeing some of the big deficits in the market and saying like, oh, now with the advent of technology and AI and stuff, how can I help even more people without it 100 % being tied to me and the direct use of my time, my energy, my voice? So that's the other part that I'm excited for because one thing that

I didn't say in all of the things that I've done in my past life, used to, I was in a science and tech high school and used to program computers before I realized I like talking to people. These computers can't talk back, now they can. But when I was programming, I was like, this sucks. So also kind of really thinking about taking what I'm doing and figuring out how can I use technology to ⁓ create software around it.

Julie Granger (38:41)

This is so cool. So, so cool. The part of me, which is all of me, which is like, I love science, I love puzzles, I love the touchy-feely, somatic spiritual. I love that you're blending it all together.

It's a mashup, the mashup of the century for you.

TaVona Denise (38:59)

Totally. Totally.

Julie Granger (39:02)

But

like, and then someone's like, by the way, and that's called a chief revenue officer. Have you ever thought about that? And like it exists, you know, and you're making it, giving it your own flavor, which I love. And I just love the claiming of this is going to help a lot of people.

TaVona Denise (39:15)

I always knew I was supposed to help a lot of people. And the meandering and the experiences that I've had and allowed myself to have is, it's now driving in the fog, right? I now can finally see like, this is how I was supposed to do it. Okay, this is interesting. Ever.

Julie Granger (39:34)

Oh, never would have predicted this, but then when we look at your

whole story, it all makes perfect sense. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love it so much. Okay, well, y'all keep an eye out. Tavonna's gonna help you. But honestly, most of the people listening are women in healthcare, as you know. And I love this just...

The business owner, I just think of even as myself, a business owner and there's things I'm like, I really hate that. And it's not so much the doing of it, it's the strategizing around it or the thinking around it or the decision-making around it. Like that becomes fatiguing on so many levels. There's not actually much in my business I don't like. I'm like you, I'm like, ooh, I like all the puzzles. I like every part of it, you know? But I think that for so many people, they lean a little bit more touchy-feely or they lean a little bit more on the creative side or...

Maybe they're like super strategy and they're missing some of the more intangible looking at how their team is feeling. Are they burning out? You know what I mean? And you bring in whatever it is they're missing, like an eye and a lens to really plug holes and put it all together for them in a holistic way that can be so impactful. And what I love about it is you're not any one thing. For someone, it might be helping them with the softer side. For some people, it might be a little more tactical. And that's needed everywhere.

TaVona Denise (40:55)

Yeah, yeah, it's really exciting. Like it feels like a full circle moment in this conversation of like where we started and saying like the evolvement and for us being it being a badge of honor, but other people's market mocking it or making it a bad thing. And like, how do you take all of those interests and bring it together into a unique package or perspective that I honestly believe that nobody in the world can touch because of the number of

things that that I've done and tried in my life. And I'm going blame this on my mom too, in a good way, because she always, when we were kids, we were always in somebody's program. Summer program, we couldn't stay home for the summers. We were always at somebody's university, learning something, whether it's engineering or computer or business or whatever. She's like, you are getting out of here and you're going to have enough experiences so that if you say you like something, it's because

Julie Granger (41:30)

Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (41:54)

you've experienced it. If you say you don't like something, it's because you you've experienced it. And so I think she kind of started it.

Julie Granger (42:02)

Mm,

so beautiful. Kudos to your mom on that. Love that. I also feel really validated with you naming all of this and the niche switching and how each stepping stone created a mosaic of what you became. Because I so relate to that. In fact, I just realized there was a stepping stone I haven't incorporated in my own brand, so to speak, that is like...

I was talking with our friend and mentor, Amanda, about it this week. And it was like a, Julie, like, how are you not, like, how did I miss this stone? And it's the very first stone of mine, which is swimmer and female athlete. And from there, I became physical therapist. From there, I became women's health and hormone coach. From there, it was business and marketing and life coach and all the things. And I'm like, my God, like, it's not just sort of like woman in health care in midlife going through

the whole identity purpose shift. It's also the one who sees herself as an athlete. Like, because that's a slightly different mentality, right?

TaVona Denise (43:05)

It's a,

it a hundred percent is as I am, whoever you're talking to right now, as the, all the sports I played and being a competitive cyclist at one point, there is a different mentality. As a matter of fact, sidebar, but it definitely relates. like watching this. I like watching bodybuilders and ⁓ weightlifters on YouTube. And there's this one channel where the guy, just really takes people, he puts them through the trenches.

Julie Granger (43:15)

Yes.

TaVona Denise (43:33)

during his workouts. Anyways, and so he gets to, he's gonna put these cross fitters through his workout and he does like the things he does with the other people but they make no noise. They're just like dang that's, and then they're on to the next thing whereas the other bodybuilders and weightlifters that he normally works with are like complaining the whole time and I bring that up because it makes me think about people who consider themselves to be an athlete or former athlete. There is something

about our brains that I think some people say, there's something I write with them because of the stuff that we put ourselves through. And so I love that you are honing in on that, especially for the group of us as we hit midlife, we know what our body used to be able to do, what it may not be able to do now and all of those things. And so I love it.

Julie Granger (44:02)

Mm.

And the grief,

yes, and the loss and the identity shift. I just relate to losing my sport as an athlete from an injury, right? That's what got me into physical therapy in the first place. But in 20 years since then, I've gone back and realized how much of an emotional injury that was. And now being in midlife and having reclaimed the sport, by the way, and the identity, cool, right? But also going, my God, so many women are

at this crossroads who have seen themselves as athletes or are still trying to see themselves as athletes and your body's changing, your interest is changing. Like things are changing physically, but also as we've talked about spiritually, emotionally, like all those things. And like, do you hold onto that identity? Do we lose it? And then double in your work, your professional career and how are we like integrating all of this? And I was like,

Oh, I started out my professional career helping female athletes speaking on it, lecturing on it, writing books about it. We need to bring that one back in, like that stepping stone. So thank you, first of all, for naming all of that. Because it's permission giving to me to even just like, be like, yeah, oh, let's go there. Let's talk about it. know? Yeah.

TaVona Denise (45:42)

Yeah, I think you'd be surprised at the

response that you get.

Julie Granger (45:47)

Right, like start showing that side of me too. I haven't been showing that side of me, like even on like Instagram, you know.

TaVona Denise (45:53)

Yeah, mean, totally that you named it grief and identity shift or loss because I became a competitor. I played sports in all the way through college until I got into PT school because it was just I couldn't do both.

But then in later adulthood, I became a competitive cyclist and it hurt my back at work, which took me out of the sport. And so there is for sure a grief that comes with the, I would even venture to say, perceived loss of that identity that I personally have been working through. So that's gonna be kind of interesting to see what you do with this.

Julie Granger (46:23)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the athlete who is an entrepreneur is a slightly different brand of entrepreneur, would you agree? Because of the willingness to get up and swing the bat, the driving through the fog, you don't know what your outcome is going to be at some sports event or competition. You have no idea. But you still show up every day and put in the work, and it burns, and it hurts, and you try. Whereas I found, and I'm not saying that if you're not an athlete, you're not going to be a good entrepreneur. Let's just be clear.

I found that athletes make great entrepreneurs for that reason because it's the same, like it's the same thing. You have no idea what the outcome is going to be. Whereas people who maybe don't have an athletic background or don't have some type of get knocked down, get back up again wiring in them or training or experience, it's a little harder to be an entrepreneur.

TaVona Denise (47:16)

Yeah, think it's the pain threshold is a bit lower. That's the only way that I can think about.

Julie Granger (47:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the pain, discouragement.

Yeah, all of it.

TaVona Denise (47:25)

Yeah, how you deal with those, like we could say discipline too, but I really think it's more of a pain threshold. And when I say pain threshold, you named it with the emotional pain threshold. That's, cause obviously we're not, there's no contact here or now. So it's like mostly, but you have to, there's no other way that I can think to say it. You have to be willing to

Julie Granger (47:39)

Yeah, Mostly.

TaVona Denise (47:51)

tolerate a certain level of pain in sports as well as in business. And the pain of frustration, the pain of rejection, the pain of confusion, uncertainty, not knowing, frustration, like all of these things.

Julie Granger (48:08)

Mm-hmm. Getting hard feedback, like receiving hard feedback from a coach or a mentor or a client even, you know, or a teammate can be really hard.

TaVona Denise (48:19)

Yeah, and learning the vast number of skills that you have to learn in business.

Julie Granger (48:25)

You're so right. You've got to be

agile too. There's got to be like, can do the technical, I can do the softer stuff. Like a really good athlete is going to be super well-rounded in a lot of ways.

TaVona Denise (48:36)

and be willing to go through the pain and discomfort of picking, like doing it for the first several times.

Julie Granger (48:44)

Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (48:45)

And it's

like, I think, and I could be wrong, but I think a lot more athletes are willing to keep going and keep doing it keep trying to see what their max is, to see what their best is, to see, I think we tend to, now that we're thinking about it like this, we want to be the best. We want to know what our best is. We want to be the best. And a lot of us are willing to experiment to figure out what would give that 1 % edge.

Julie Granger (49:12)

That's right. That's right. Yeah. I love this part about be the best. And I also like how you said be our best because for a lot of people, myself included, it's always been a game of one. It's me versus me. And there's something really ingrained in me that's not, it has turned into perfectionism or it's turned into overachieving, but it's actually part of my fabric, which is like, how much better can it get? How much more can I do?

Right? where can I move the bar just a little bit more? It's like very healthy, right? It's this curiosity. It's this seeking of a slightly higher peak, you know? And where is that 1 %?

TaVona Denise (49:49)

Yeah, that's interesting now that you mentioned that too. I'm like individual sports versus group sports, because I mostly played group sports in high school and college. then cycling ⁓ is very much group, but I was also, the competitions that I was in was do atlant.

So that was very much individual. So it'd be interesting to see like what is the difference or how entrepreneurs think differently or move differently in business if they were used to team sports versus individual sports.

Julie Granger (50:09)

Mm-hmm.

Ooh,

all right, I'm gonna look up that research and see what we can find. Speaking of being nerdy and seeing if anyone's even really looked at that, you know, maybe that's the research I'm moving into next. Set up a study. Here's my nerdy researcher brain coming in. That might happen. I mean, I say it now as a joke, but a year from now I'm publishing a study on this.

TaVona Denise (50:28)

Yeah.

Julie Granger (50:39)

Stay tuned. Okay. Well, this is wonderful. At the tail end of every episode, we do a lightning round. All the same questions. Give me your first gut, you know, no overthinking here. I have five questions for you. Are you ready for this?

TaVona Denise (50:55)

Yes.

Julie Granger (50:56)

All right, number one, if you could be any animal other than a human, what would it be and why?

TaVona Denise (51:03)

some sort of maybe an eagle. I don't know, because I'm not familiar with the bird species, but I want it to be big and fast and strong and be able to go very, very long distances. So whatever bird that is.

Julie Granger (51:14)

Mmm.

Fits seeing the bird's eye view, going fast and strong in very long distances. I feel like that sums up our conversation well. The CRO. And they change their home a lot. They don't live in one place. They migrate. Amazing. OK. Get a drink with two people dead or alive. Who are they? What are you going to ask them?

TaVona Denise (51:23)

you

There you go. All right.

Two people that are alive. Probably Obama. wanted to know, I wanna know how did he come up with the idea to use social media to mobilize so many people? Like he was the first to do that. So, like how did you even come up with that idea and how did y'all make that happen?

Julie Granger (51:48)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

TaVona Denise (51:54)

So that's one. And I think the other person is I would ask my great aunt who she actually has, I think it's still there, a historical landmark, which is a salon in the Virginia Beach area. You can see the plaque and everything on her business. She had a couple of businesses, restaurants and that salon. And I would want to talk to her and find out what made her want to do that because she was one of 12 and there were six boys

and the boys got money from my great grandfather to start their businesses, but the women got nothing. And she went out and still made her own businesses and made it happen. So I would want to know, how did she do that?

Julie Granger (52:39)

Yeah, how did she do that? What was within her that gave her the drive to? I don't want to know that too.

TaVona Denise (52:46)

Yeah, especially since she had no running start with the money and or mentorship or support and still had multiple businesses.

Julie Granger (52:53)

And now a historical landmark. How cool is that? That's so cool. Awesome. All right. Obama and your great aunt. What's her name?

TaVona Denise (53:00)

Georgie.

Julie Granger (53:01)

Georgie. Amazing. All right, third question. Does pineapple belong on pizza?

TaVona Denise (53:07)

Hmm.

Julie Granger (53:07)

I love this face.

TaVona Denise (53:08)

Does it belong?

You can put it on there and I've had it and it's okay, but is it my first go-to? No. So I can't say a definitive, it belongs. You can absolutely put it. I know there are balances and all of that, but that's not my first go-to.

Julie Granger (53:25)

How very nuanced of you. love this answer. Yes, no, it depends.

TaVona Denise (53:30)

Listen, I'm going to often give you an it depends answer. If you ask me a question.

Julie Granger (53:34)

you

This is amazing. This question can be very polarizing. The people I ask, usually get a definitive yes or no, like right out of the gate. So thank you for the nuance. I appreciate that.

TaVona Denise (53:44)

Really? Yeah,

nuance and context matters in all cases, in my personal opinion.

Julie Granger (53:49)

Mm-hmm. Always. Yes.

More nuance and context in our world. That will probably save the world, honestly. All right, number four. I'm a fly on the wall on an average Friday night for you. What do I see you doing?

TaVona Denise (54:04)

⁓ You're gonna see my brother and I cutting up. I don't know, we're telling stories, we might be singing, that's what we'll be doing.

Julie Granger (54:15)

⁓

This is the same brother with the master's degree. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I love that closeness. Okay. Final question. What is a hidden or maybe not so hidden pleasure or obsession of yours that people may find surprising, weird, quirky, or questionable?

TaVona Denise (54:18)

Yeah, yeah, the same one. Yep.

Obsession is a strong word, but I love barre classes. If my stupid hip would stop hurting, I would go back to doing barre because I secretly think I was supposed to be a ballerina.

Julie Granger (54:42)

Ooh.

Not too late, Tavona

TaVona Denise (54:52)

right. I love bar classes, I love ballet, I love watching. There's somebody on YouTube that is a photographer of a ballet company and she takes the most amazing photos of ballerinas. And so I just mesmerized. While people are doom scrolling, I am scrolling all of these.

all of these photos and how the people get into these poses and other ballet things. they, I don't know about obsessed, but that's something that I like watching and people probably wouldn't know that about me.

Julie Granger (55:28)

I did not know that about you and I love that it's mesmerizing. This is awesome. This is me and staring at rivers on maps. I love to see, I love to trace a river on a map and see where it started, see where it goes, see where it winds through. mesmerizing for me. Maybe we all do more things that are mesmerizing.

TaVona Denise (55:45)

Agreed.

Julie Granger (55:46)

Hmm. All right. Speaking of mesmerizing and inspiration, if anyone's mesmerized by the idea of a CRO or just learning about you or learning more, how do we get in touch with you?

TaVona Denise (55:58)

You can find me at Tavonadenise.com. That is the best place.

Julie Granger (56:03)

Okay,

I'll put that in the show notes so you can link right over there. All right, one last question. If you could give advice to the version of you who was embarking on, let's say, career professional journey, the very first place where you landed, what would you tell her?

TaVona Denise (56:24)

the very first place that I'd landed.

I mean, I could say this is only the beginning, but I think it's learn all you can from the people around you, even if they are not the same quote unquote level, because there was a PT assistant that I worked with who she had like 30 years in the game by the time I got there.

Julie Granger (56:49)

yeah.

TaVona Denise (56:49)

She was, and she was also a massage therapist as well. So I think, and I'm, she knew a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And so I think that would be the advice to learn from everyone around you because they bring something unique to the table.

Julie Granger (57:07)

I love that, especially the part about the perceived power differential. I'm all about busting power differentials in every space and being like, hold on. We're equals here. We're peers. And there's something so beautiful that that person can teach you. Brilliant. All right, Tavana. Well, so many good mic drops here.

TaVona Denise (57:26)

Thanks. It's always fun. It's always fun to talk to you and now everybody gets to hear some of the things that we talk about behind the scenes.

Julie Granger (57:27)

I can, I know.

I know. It's true.

It's true. Little eavesdrop on a great conversation. So thank you for being here. I cannot wait to see how this impacting lots of people comes out for you. So we'll have to have a Where is she now episode in the future. Awesome. All right. Thanks a lot.

TaVona Denise (57:46)

Yeah, thank you.

All right, I'm ready for it.

Thank you.