11 | How Working Moms Can Handle Tough Conversations Like a Leader with Thilan Legierse

Are you constantly replaying conversations in your head, wishing you said something differently?

Do you hold back from setting boundaries at work because you don’t want to seem “difficult”?

Have you ever been interrupted, overlooked, or shut down—and stayed silent?

You’re not alone. And you don’t have to stay stuck.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• The exact words to say during hard conversations using Thilan’s DRAMA Method
• How to handle conflict without confrontation or guilt
• What to do when you’ve been interrupted, dismissed, or misunderstood at work
• How to manage your emotions and stay grounded—even in tough situations
• How to prepare for conversations that feel anxiety-inducing or intimidating

Resources + Links:

🎁 Don’t miss Thilan’s FREE resource: “The Difficult Conversations Roadmap”: https://www.thilanlegierse.com/tdcr-pdf

Connect with Thilan: https://www.facebook.com/thilanlegierse1

🚀 Take the FREE Mastery Zone Discovery Quiz & uncover your career strengths!👉 https://theshannonfox.com/mastery-zone-discovery-quiz

📩 Join the Career EmpowHERment Collective (Facebook Group) for exclusive career tips and networking:

👉 https://www.facebook.com/groups/careerempowhermentcollective

Kat and Tanner by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Artist: http://www.twinmusicom.org/

Transcript

Intro: Welcome to the Shannon Fox Show, the podcast where we empower career moms to thrive. I'm your host Shannon Fox, a career advancement coach dedicated to helping moms like you leverage your strengths to land your dream job, secure that well-deserved raise, or finally get that promotion, all without sacrificing time with your family. Each week I'll bring you actionable strategies, inspiring stories, and strength-based tools to help you align your career with your natural gifts and step into your full potential. So, if you're ready to stop feeling stuck and start building the career and life you deserve, you're in the right place. Let's get started.

Shannon: Hello, everybody. Welcome. Today I have Tilan Lagierson and she combines her 30 plus years of global experience as an accredited leadership coach, mediator, trial, and UN human rights, plus war crimes lawyer, and HR manager to help 10x leaders' confidence, influence, and impact using her signature Hardwire for Leadership system. Welcome, Tilan. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Thilan: Thank you so much for having me, Shannon. I'm really excited to be here.

Shannon: So, let's start by maybe telling us how you got into this career path.

Thilan: I guess it's always a really long story, but the bottom line is that I've always been quite an ambitious person, as in I've always wanted to try and keep growing and keep changing and also following my passion. So, I started out as a lawyer and I was really passionate about human rights. And I then decided to first become like an attorney at law to really get good at that. And I did that. Then I always wanted to work for the United Nations, which is like, you know, the Valhalla for human rights lawyers. And so, I really worked on that. And then I worked there for 12 years. I worked in Cambodia, in Bosnia, in Geneva, in The Hague. And then my daughter actually was really ill and she's perfectly fine now. And I needed to kind of rethink what I wanted. And one of the things was, this was when we were living in the Netherlands where I'm from. And I was having a great career for the UN and we decided to move to Australia. And here, when I came here 14 years ago, I had to kind of reinvent myself again. And I went back to my passion, which was because I'd seen so much bad things and bad communication, I really wanted to become a mediator. And that's what I did. And then I started my own business, because that's me. I love working for myself. And I love doing things I'm passionate about. So 10 years ago, I started my own business. And I was working a lot with teams and leaders where there was conflict, low morale. And then I realized that at some point, hey, the leaders need a lot of support. And I look back on my own journey as a leader. And I never really got any official training. I was a lawyer, was just thrown in, okay, you're a good lawyer, so you'll be a good leader. And so I really became more interested in coaching leaders. And that's where I am today. So I'm at that great age where I can combine all my passions. And I feel the puzzle is complete. So I work with leaders, and their teams, and I do a lot of training and coaching. And that's it. And I work with people from all over the world online, which I love.

Shannon: Yes, I love how online can make the world a little bit smaller place. So let's say we have some people in the audience, some moms that might be facing a situation at work that requires a difficult conversation. And they're hesitating because of the concerns about offending someone or losing control of the situation. What kind of advice would you give to someone in that situation?

Thilan: Yeah. So I think that's so important. And that's where I'm coming from empowering people. So if you look at my career, it's always about empowering people. I think what often happens with people in general, but especially with women, is that we try to want to keep everything harmonious. And we are afraid to actually say something, because when we say something, we worry it will escalate. So that's one end of the spectrum. And then there's another end of the spectrum in which people speak up. But the way they speak up is not very effective, because they speak up in a way other people can't hear them. So my advice for people is to always speak up for yourself, and feel empowered, because if you don't, things will fester. And you will feel upset with yourself that you didn't speak up, that you didn't stand up for your own needs. But do it in a way that people can actually hear you. And so you should think about what you say, but also make sure that you're in the right state of mind. So I always say, speak up in anger, and you'll make the best speech you'll ever regret. I think that's not me, I don't remember who. But yeah, so speaking up is so important. And it's something that I try to do, even though it can be difficult, and it takes courage. But you also role model then for others.

Shannon: What happens if someone may have not felt empowered and not had that conversation. And now they're wrestling with that feeling of like, I should have said something. And now they're questioning themselves—what advice could you maybe give to them?

Thilan: Yeah, so first of all, I hope I'm going to be able to share with you guys how to speak up. But I think when you have that, we often doubt ourselves. I always like to go and check with someone who I personally really respect. And so that I can say to that person, can I run this past you? I'm just—I've got this story in my head. And, you know, it's coming back all the time. What do you think? Should I have spoken up? Or am I making too much out of this? You know, sometimes we can take things a little bit too personal. But what I often see is that people go and check with nine or ten people or all their colleagues. And I would just keep it to one or two people that you trust, because you don't want to be like the person in the office who's venting all the time. And then when they say, yeah, you're right, you should speak up, or maybe you're making a mountain out of a molehill, then I'd say, okay, maybe just relax. Maybe I'm taking this too personal. But if they say no, you have a point there, then I say, okay, I need to speak up. Because I really feel if we don't speak up, we let other people take our personal power away. And I really believe in personal power. And so if everybody's chipping away at your personal power, you become kind of like a zombie version of yourself, because you don't dare to speak up.

Shannon: So what way would you advise people to speak up?

Thilan: There's a first part which is how to mentally prepare yourself. But the second part is to actually speak up. So I use a framework called DRAMA.

The first one is Describe the Facts. Often what people do when they speak up is they say things, but it’s their version of the facts. I’m originally a lawyer, so I always want to stick to the facts. If someone says, “I feel like yesterday you were bullying me,” that's already going to make the other person defensive. But if you say, “Hey, for the last three meetings, you interrupted me while I was speaking,” that is a fact—nobody can deny that.

Then R is for Report the Impact. This is where you might say, “That made me feel like what I was saying wasn’t valued,” or “The impact it had on me is that I didn’t feel heard.”

The A is Acknowledge the Needs of the other person. Often when we're speaking up, it’s all about us, but if we acknowledge the other person has needs too, we take the sting out of it. For example, “I acknowledge that this is your project, and maybe you felt passionate and jumped in because you had something to say.”

M is Make Your Own Needs Known. Like, “I’ve worked on this as well, and I have something valuable to contribute.”

And finally, the last A is Ask for a Change. Like, “Next time, could you let me finish before jumping in?”

So when you combine that together—Describe, Report, Acknowledge, Make known, Ask—it becomes a powerful statement that doesn’t offend but helps the other person understand where you're coming from and what you’d like them to do differently.

Shannon: I like that. It’s easy to remember—DRAMA.

Let’s say one of our listeners has an issue with a colleague or a client, and it’s feeling super intimidating. How can she actually apply this DRAMA formula?

Thilan: I’d suggest going back to the roadmap I talk about, the one that helps you mentally prepare. Because what often happens—I don’t know if this has happened to you, Shannon—it’s happened to me. I go into a room thinking I’ll talk about something, but somehow the conversation gets derailed and the other person dominates, and I say nothing.

So it helps to make sure that what you want to talk about becomes the topic. And if the conversation veers off—like someone brings up something unrelated—bring it back. Like, “Thanks, but I’d really like to focus on how we’re working together.”

Then you can go into your DRAMA speech. Visualize yourself walking out of that room feeling like, “Yes, I did it!” That’s the word people use all the time—they feel relieved. I get so many texts from clients saying, “Thilan, I finally spoke up, and I feel so good.”

That feeling—that's what I want people to remember is waiting on the other side of the fear.

I also believe we all have a voice. As a former human rights lawyer, I really believe that. So give yourself a pep talk. Say, “I’ve checked with someone I trust, and they agree. This matters to me.” And don’t be afraid.

People worry about conflict escalating, but it doesn’t have to. Not if you’re open and honest. Escalation happens when emotions run high or when we accuse others. But if you stay calm and don’t let them push your buttons, you’re in control.

I always say, “Don’t give someone the power to trigger your hot buttons.” Stay in your prefrontal cortex. Don’t go into fight, flight, or freeze. Be present. Look at the colors in the room. Feel your feet on the ground. Remind yourself: I am here. I am safe. I am speaking up. And I’m going to do it in a way this person can hear me.

Because if we all spoke up and communicated better, the world would be a better place. So many issues stem from miscommunication—people not listening, using the wrong language, making up stories in their head. But when you actually talk to people, they often say, “Oh wow, I didn’t realize I did that,” or, “I’m sorry—I didn’t mean it that way.”

Some people are just extroverts and interrupt without realizing it. So I coach a lot of people on how to listen better, too. Sometimes it’s just about pressing your lips together and listening.

Making people feel understood and heard is one of the most powerful things you can do in leadership.

Shannon: Absolutely. And I think so many miscommunications now happen over text, especially when we’re busy. You read a text one way, and you assume something the other person didn’t mean at all. But if you pick up the phone and say, “Hey, I got your text. Can we talk about it?”—you can reconnect. You can clarify.

Thilan: Exactly. The world is very polarized right now, and it starts with us doing our part to communicate better. We’re not perfect. I’m definitely not the Dalai Lama! But when I say something wrong, or when I realize I didn’t explain it well, I try again. I say, “Let me rephrase that.”

It’s not about blaming others—it’s about owning our communication.

Shannon: My husband and I use the word “rephrase” too! If one of us says something that sounds a bit off, we say, “Can you rephrase that?” And it’s our little cue. We don’t take it personally anymore—it just means we need a do-over. We’re usually rushing or multitasking, and it didn’t come out right.

Thilan: I love that. I’ve been with my husband forever—he’s Scottish—and yes, we have our communication moments too! So yes, this works at home as well.

But it’s especially important in the workplace. You spend more time with coworkers than your family sometimes. You need communication and connection—and to feel like your voice matters.

Shannon: Exactly. I’m all about empowering voices. And sometimes, people don’t mean to do something hurtful—they just don’t know. That’s where boundaries come in. If you don’t tell someone what upset you, they might never realize it.

Thilan: And the thing is, I don’t even like calling it a “difficult conversation.” That already makes it sound hard. I prefer to just say it’s a conversation. But yes—it’s human nature to avoid things that feel painful. It’s easier to go home, have a glass of wine, and watch Netflix than to call your mother-in-law and say what needs to be said.

But I always say: If you’re losing sleep over it, that’s your cue. That’s when you know you need to speak up. If not, it’ll turn into an ulcer one day because you just keep swallowing it down.

So that’s my rule. If I can’t let it go, I say something.

Sometimes people say things and it just rolls off—like water off a duck’s back. But sometimes, no, actually, this is not okay. And that’s when I decide to speak up.

You don’t want to be that person who’s constantly saying, “When you did this, it made me feel…” all day long. You use it for the more important conversations.

Shannon: Right. Is all of this included in that roadmap for difficult conversations?

Thilan: Yes. I should have had it in front of me, Shannon, but I don’t. It’s about 14 pages long and explains the process—how to get yourself into the right mindset, with five steps for preparation, and then how to actually have the conversation.

I’m on a mission to help people have these conversations and communicate better. Especially for women—we should be confident in negotiating and speaking up. I know this roadmap helps with that.

I hope people watching or listening will check it out and give it a try. And like you said, don’t start with the most critical conversation of your life. It’s like going to the gym—you don’t start by lifting 100 kilos. Start small. Practice. Build up confidence.

That’s what I do with my coaching clients. We work on something small, they try it, it goes well, and then they go a bit further. And eventually it becomes second nature. Like with you and your husband saying, “Can you rephrase that?”

Shannon: Yes! I love it. Thank you so much for being with us here today. I think we all learned a lot, and I know I did. I’ll definitely be using this in my business and life. Thank you so much!

Thilan: Thanks for having me. It was really nice. Thank you.

Outro:Thanks so much for tuning into The Shannon Fox Show. If you found value in today’s episode, I’d love for you to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with another career mom who’s ready to thrive.

Don’t forget to grab your free Mastery Zone Discovery Quiz, where you’ll uncover your strengths and take the first step toward aligning your career with your superpowers.

You can also connect with me on Instagram at @the.shannon.fox for more tips and inspiration.

Until next time, remember: you’re not just building a career—you’re creating a life you love.

Let’s make this happen.