How Representation Helps Us See What is Possible

In this special Pride Month episode of Chris and Jen in the Morning, the discussion focuses on the intersection of representation, identity, and self-care through the lens of Taylor Jenkins Reed's book, Atmosphere. The episode explores how individuals absorb limits from the world around them, how the human brain processes familiarity, and how intentionally curating your environment can unlock entirely new personal possibilities.

Three Pivotal Points

• The Mirror vs. Window Concept of Representation: Representation functions both as a "window" through which people view lives different from their own to build empathy, and as a "mirror" that allows individuals to see themselves clearly, building self-acceptance and recognition.
• The Neuroscience of Familiarity and the RAS: The brain's Reticular Activating System (RAS) filters massive amounts of data to prioritize predictable, familiar patterns for survival over active happiness. To see new possibilities, individuals must intentionally change their inputs and content consumption.
• Shifting from "Fixing" to Understanding: True self-care involves recognizing and understanding your authentic identity rather than expending energy trying to "fix" yourself or force your life into rigid societal labels and definitions of success.

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Chapters

00:00 Holiday Pie Preferences

00:01 Representation and Its Impact

07:26 Diving into 'Atmosphere' by Taylor Jenkins Reid

21:01 Broadening Perspectives Amidst Chaos

26:09 Understanding Fear and Human Behavior

30:59 The Bigger Picture of Existence

38:09 Legacy and Collective Impact

47:05 Representation and Its Importance

56:00 The Role of Representation as a Mirror and Window

01:15:10 The Power of Self-Recognition

01:22:41 Curating Your Environment for Growth

01:28:47 Understanding Your Inner Voice

01:37:07 The Importance of Visibility and Community

01:44:16 Navigating the Journey of Self-Discovery

01:49:30 Outro

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever looked at the world around you and secretly believed that a life of true success, love, and fulfillment simply wasn't possible or available to you? Like the limits of who you are allowed to be had already been decided by someone else. Welcome to a very special Pride Month episode of Chris and Jen in the Morning. Today, Chris and Jen are gonna challenge the boundaries of what we think is possible for ourselves through the powerful lens of Taylor Jenkins Reed's incredible book, Atmosphere.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

I just feel so strongly that this book was written in such a way that not only paints this beautiful picture of what life may have been like for people back in the 80s, but also like makes you think about your perspective. I think lends to those questions that we should be asking ourselves to continually evolve into better and better humans.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

We are diving deep into how storytelling expands the world for those who have spent a lifetime feeling invisible. Those who look at spaces of high achievement and struggle to see themselves succeeding there. Most of us absorb our limits from the culture around us. But this episode is about breaking that subconscious loop. It's an exploration of representation as both a window to build empathy and a mirror to finally recognize your own truth. It is time to stop spending the years trying to fix the parts of yourself that simply need to be understood. Let's get into it. Welcome to Chris and Jen in the morning, where self-care meets real life.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

And I'm Jen.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

And we are excited to be here with you for another exciting Pride episode.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yes, we are. And um today we're gonna talk about um representation.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Representation um through a unique way, I think. Um a fun and different kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah. Like have you ever wanted something, but secretly you believed that it just wasn't possible, it wasn't available to you. Um we're gonna talk about that aspect of representation. And of course, like this applies um to the LGBTQ community. This applies to Pride Month, but it also applies, you know, to many other areas of our lives. So um I think we're in for a really interesting, exciting conversation. There may be a few points of debate in here between Chris and I um based on kind of pre-working out the outline. We sort of paused and said, Oh, hold on, let's stop talking about that because we've got some points of view here.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Because we wanna, we want, we want to get it for everyone to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yep. Um, but we're we're super excited because I think we both agree this is just such a really important conversation. It's impactful um to both of us, I think, in different ways and in the same ways too. And um, and so let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Let's do it. But before we get into it, let's um start with gratitude because we have to ground ourselves in in moments of our days that we um find things, big or small, um, that help us, you know, rem remind us that we're here. We we have power over our thoughts. Um, so do you want to kick us off?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Um, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Okay. So yesterday I was walking to go uh meet up with a friend, and I just had my music on shuffle. And, you know, the last few conversations you and I have had have to me been very informative, inspirational. We talk all the time how like we're not experts on this stuff, we are just living our lives and and sharing that journey. And um, so the last couple of episodes have really like just stuck with me, the the value values and identity, like this stuff has really um been stuff that I've kind of been mulling over over the last several months. Um and as I have been seeking inspiration and and ways of kind of you know, maybe taking things um off, if you will, that aren't necessarily mine and that I want to keep. Um, as I was walking along, the song by Pink, All I Know So Far, came on. And I love Pink. I I um uh and I've heard the song many, many times, but I do believe like when you revisit music throughout your life, it will likely inspire you in different ways. And so I heard the lyrics in a different way. And um, the specific part, she says, I wish someone would have told me that life is ours to choose. No one's handing you the keys or a book with all the rules. The little I know I'll tell you when they dress you up in lies and you are left naked with the truth. Um I don't know, like to me, it just like hits so differently and like reminding me that um we get to choose this. Like we are going to move through life and there are going to be lots of things that are either put upon us or that we're taught um at a young age, or we're we end up in a group of friends and we want to fit in, like whatever it may be, things get attached to us, but they we don't have to carry those. They are not things that we have to um identify with, and maybe we identify for a season, but later on in life we don't anymore. Um, I don't know. I just felt like inspired in a whole new way. And I'm sure it was because I I I wasn't free walking, I was well I had a destination, but how I was getting there like was kind of loose, like based on um what what what sidewalks were available. Um and then I just had music on and I was, you know, movement. I was walking around. So just a truly inspirational afternoon for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

I love that. That's so amazing. And I love pink, she is all time one of my favorite humans. Like the many times earlier in life I that I was asked the question, who would you have dinner with? If you could have dinner with anybody, um hands down, my answer is pink now. No one has asked me the question now, but I'll just I'll just share my answer.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Just put it out there.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Um, like I just think she's good people, she has a a good heart, she's a good human, she's incredibly talented, um, and certainly a role model for me. So although I'm not gonna be swinging through the air at a concert in front of, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, but right.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Well, never say never, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I aspire to um find the courage I see her choose to walk in. Um so I love that. My gratitude moment um is I was reflecting on, you know, probably this episode and the prep for this episode. And so I was really thinking, I am just incredibly grateful for authors, um, for people who choose to use their creative gift and lean into their gift and share their stories with the world, whether it's stories about um, you know, things that happened, stories that, you know, are made up, stories that are existing in the world we live in, but that are made up. Um, I think one of the things that I have long wanted to do since I was a child is to write a book. But I would always say, like, that's not for you. You're not you're not allowed to do that. Who do you think you are that you can do that? And um, and so I was thinking about that um over the last few days and thinking, yeah, I'm just really grateful for the people that choose to lean in to their gifts and to bring to us stories that bring us joy, that make us feel, um, and that make us think. And I think that um today we're gonna talk about uh as we talk through this topic, we're gonna talk about this book, Atmosphere, by Taylor Jenkins Reed. Um, and Chris, you brought this book to me. I did. Um, it was a fantastic recommendation. I mean, like fantastic. It made me feel I highlighted um quotes in the book, which I literally never do. I have some people read like that. I don't. So um I have eight quotes that I highlighted from the book that were just like these moments where I just was like, drop the mic. Um, I mean, I just feel so strongly that this book um was written in such a way that not only paints this beautiful picture of what life may have been like for people um back in the 80s, but also like makes you think um about your perspective and like I think lends to those questions that we should be asking ourselves to continually evolve into better and better humans.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

So agreed. So we are gonna be discussing the book atmosphere today. Um so if you are currently reading through it, if you have it on your to be red list and you don't want any spoilers or anything like that, then um press pause on this episode. Definitely come back. Um, but we're gonna be talking about it today, and we're we're going to share, you know, some some of our favorite parts, some of the different things. So um we don't want to ruin it for anyone, um, but we also want you to come back and listen and we'd love to hear your perspective on it. Um because we're we're building this community for for these types of conversations. And when I brought this to you, um Jen, it was it was because I knew that you enjoy looking at the stars, you enjoy looking at the planets, like doing all of that stuff. So I knew that you would enjoy the the story about it. But I also there are so many different layers to this story that I think depending on um kind of like music, like if you come back to it at different parts in your life, there will likely be different things that stand out to you and that resonate because um there's just so much packed into this book. There is um that uh I think really challenges the way that we think, like, yes, it's based, you know, 20, 30 years ago, but it's also like still I I mean, I I think some of the the things discussed in it are still a little bit relevant in today's society.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Well, yeah, I think it's a beautiful love story, and it's a love story um not only about a woman, Joan, who falls in love, but it's also about Joan falling in love with herself. It's about Joan's love story with her career and the things that she loves to do. It's a love story about what family means to Joan. And um, you know, I think that's a part of what made this story for me so beautiful, is it's not just this like um like one-dimensional sort of story that you're reading through, but there are all of these relationships. It's great character development. I feel like um there were moments where I just was like, oh, why does this author have to do this to me? Um I think that's when you know, like that that they've done a good job of um like creating these characters that you can really relate to that you want to um like you feel the things that the characters feel. And um, and then of course, there's you know, like a little bit of a picture of what it was like to live inside of a world where women were um first being allowed into uh NASA. And um, you know, that's fascinating. Um and and like look, I'm claustrophobic. I have high anxiety. I'm never gonna travel to outer space and be okay. Like there, I'm not gonna pass. I would like not pass the test.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

It's it's not a job you're gonna go apply for.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, motion sickness so bad. So I have, I mean, long wanted, and when I mentioned I wanted to write a book, I mean, I've wanted to do many, many things um through my life. I just can't get enough of experiences. But I love the stars, I love the planets, I love space, and um, I love the idea of being able to travel there, but also like the idea I love the reality of until we fix the motion sickness, claustrophobia, like all of those things. And it's not gonna be my cup of tea. But um, but getting this is a way that I get to take that journey, um, you know, without having to deal with all of those physical side effects.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah, for sure. So let's let's get into a few of our our favorites. I think um I just loved this book from from start to finish. Uh I so I listened to I audiobook, so I don't have anything like highlighted, but um like I listened to it once and then I immediately started listening to it again because of the way it's written with like the stu the two storylines uh overlapping. I wanted to go back and listen to it again to see like now that I know what's happening, um, you know, does do things hit and and um maybe make sense in a different way? Um understanding more of the context since I've gotten through the book and um I've never done that before. Um, listen to something twice, right, back to back.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

I think part of what m made it such a I can't put it down is that you start forward in time and then you go back in time and you keep this shift forward and backward, but you don't start at the end. Um, you start at a middle of a point in time and you just have to find out what happens. You just have to find out. And then as you begin to go back in time and you build these relationships with these characters, then like it's even more compelling and you just can't like I just I had to know, I couldn't put it down. Um, and so I love that. I I have to say I finished the book and I was like, I hated the ending, hated the ending. Um but like not in a negative throw the book away, hated the ending. Like she just really makes you feel. And um I didn't feel like I got all the closure I wanted. You kind of have to make up a little bit of your own to get the closure that you wanted. Yeah. And of course, that's how life works, right? Like a story is a point in time and it starts and ends at a point in time. And um, you know, I think that makes the story so much more realistic. Um, so I mean, like applause to her for the way that that she wrote that, but also it left me going, oh, that killed me.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

So it's interesting that you say that. So when I um was listening to it the first time, I was um in the kitchen as I was like reading like the or listening to the last like chapter, chapter and a half, whatever. I was doing dishes. And um, like I have the sink on, I'm I'm washing things, and they're going through the part of where they're they're coming back. And I had heard, um, I th it was some at some point that week, uh, some type of um Instagram video or something that was talking about how um LGBTQ people deserve stories that they they see a ending that is inspirational, that is happy, that shows that it's not just doom and gloom, because so much of what has been portrayed in in like the 80s and 90s, and I would even say early 2000s of of the LGBTQ plus community is not great. Yeah. And and and that we deserve heroes who like have happy endings. And I kind of like I heard that and I was just kind of like, ugh, I don't know, like uh whatever. I I I didn't necessarily attach to it. Um, if anything, I had more of a uh uh tough acceptance of it. So then I'm listening to the story and I'm hearing, and she has her breakdown about like whenever things cut off and they didn't make reconnection. I had to turn the sink off and I am sitting, I am tears are running down my face. Yeah. And that thing just started started playing back in my head. And I'm like, no, I deserve this happy ending. I haven't gone through all of this to not have this happy ending. And then I was like, oh, maybe, maybe I maybe I do identify with that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I think um, I think two things. One I am not quite a hundred percent confident how the reality in the story actually ends the way that it's written. I'm not sure if the ending that I read is reality or is it made up inside Joan's head.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Like a break, like she had a break.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Yes. And um, I would love to know from Taylor, but I gather that that is intentional. Um I gather that that's intentional. I it's that like as you go through the story, it is very much about a a gay couple um or a gay woman finding love and finding herself and figuring out that she is gay in a time when that's not allowed. It's very much is about that, but it's not about that. It's about just a human living life and the experience that that she has. And then that just happens to be a part of the experience that she has. And so I think I get goosebumps as I'm saying this. Like what I think is so artful about the way that this story was crafted is that from an identity standpoint, oftentimes if you're a part of the LGBTQ community, that becomes you know, such a big part of your identity in other people's eyes. Um this is my gay friend, that's you know, the gay guy at work, that's you know, and like we've talked about this before on the podcast, LGBTQ people are many things and they also like this is something, you know, they they are also a part of the LGBTQ plus community. And um the more that I have sat with that, like not that it ever was not true, but it just becomes so much more meaningful to me because, you know, my um choice of who maybe not even choice, like who I love is not a part of my identity. So why should that be a part of your identity?

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yep. Um which I think is why I loved how she wrote this, because it was like an unfolding and it reminds me a lot of um uh how Patrick in Shits Creek was written. Yeah. Like how that character, like um, like his the conversation him and David have in the car after they kiss for the first time, like it to me was on that same level of just an organic development of a character. It wasn't it it wasn't a huge plot point. It wasn't a it was just a I am figuring out who I am, and I am as as the the character and atmosphere, Joan, as she was experiencing life in a whole different space for the first time, no pun intended.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah. I mean, and so I love that the book balances this like creating stories about things that are hidden, you know, or pressed down in society that are really important, but also like at the same time, it is a whole and complete story just about a woman on a journey. Um, and like that I think is she made it look easy. And I I would gather that it is not easy. So if it was easy for her, like that is a talent. Um, but I'm just so incredibly grateful because I think that is what we need more of is um this main character going on this journey, and she's just a person that anyone can relate to. Um, she's not a caricature of you know, somebody that's a part of a marginalized community. She's she's this whole real person. And um like to me, I just thought that's how you normalize um things that that are suppressed, you know. So I thought it was beautiful. Um, I also have eight quotes. Um, and I don't know, do you think I should share some of those in my volume around them?

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

All right. So the first quote that I highlighted says we can succeed or fail, get it right or get it wrong, love and lose the ones we love, and still the summer triangle will point south. And in that way, I know everything will be some type of okay, as impossible as that can seem sometimes. Um, so the summer triangle is uh like a triangle made with uh const like with stars in the sky um during the summer. And um it to me This was just a reminder, like that whatever is happening in the world, all of this craziness, all of this, like we've talked about, there's just this intensity here in the American culture. And I think in the world in general, there's just this like we were maybe in a time that felt more calm, or maybe we were younger and less plugged in. I don't know. Um, but things just seem really intense. And it seems like, you know, I stopped with the news because it just felt like I was like living in this amygdala hijack situation constantly. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

And as I want to be educated, but I don't want to be, you know, like triggered. Um and it's just this reminder of like the world is so much bigger than us, than our earth, the the universe is so much bigger than us. And no matter what chaos happens down here on this planet, the summer triangle is still there. Um, and it still always points the same direction. And um, and so I just I loved that sentiment from the book. It was a great reminder for me that when it feels like everything is in chaos, you just have to broaden your perspective.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah. And if I remember correctly, I think this was in the um like the very beginning. Like I think it was her her um Taylor Jenkins read like opening preamble to the book. And um like it was something that like in her research made it come true for her as well, like to see that bigger picture of things. Um, but I also think that's a beautiful thing that is weaved throughout the book.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Throughout the whole book, yeah. And I highlighted it without knowing that. It just was like as things were I didn't go back and read it a second time, just as as there were statements that I never highlight in a book, like I said, but as there were statements that were made that I just was like, oh my gosh, I want to keep that. Um I thought, I'm gonna I'm gonna make notes. Um and there there were just there were eight of them.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Um so that was one.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

There were probably more, but I you know, I was like, okay, let's not be too much.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Like I don't want to highlight the entire book.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

If you're somebody that like tabs your books and stuff, like uh I'm not throwing shade at that. I just I would I was the person that highlighted literally everything.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Um and if you highlight everything, then is anything important?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I right. So then I was just like basically using a book as a coloring book. I was like, okay, this isn't working. Um so the second one. So when you look out at the sky, the farther you can see, the further back in time you are looking. The space between you and the star is time. Well obviously time and space are a mystery to me. And so I thought that's such a beautiful thing to take with me as I look at the sky, the the sky and the stars. And I think it's this space between me and the star that I'm looking at. That's time. That's what time is. Um like it's just kind of a mind-bender. And this is a part of what I love about this book. It is this beautiful human interest story with these like scientific facts woven in and facts and thoughts and you know, deep thinking and well, and people's like interpretation of it, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Like the care like characters throughout this book uh are standing in the same place, but experience things differently, and they share it. And I think that's also what I love. It's one author, but sharing multiple perspectives. And so one of the reasons this book like really stood out to me was because like that quote exactly to me reminded me of the episode that we did on space.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Space-time. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

And so I'm like, uh we we've talked about this and it it is inspiring and it is like just like awing. I don't even know if that's the right way to say that.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Like I think this book hits you at the intellectual level as much as it hits you at the emotional level, and that is a part of the balanced art that I believe this book um is. So um, all right, third quote. This one with Father's Day just around the corner, Mother's Day having recently been. Um I I read this from through my mother's eyes perspective. Um, Joan tried to keep it in check to be ready to accept all the ways that Francis would grow and change and blossom into her full imperfection. Um and Francis is Joan's niece. And um, you know, Francis is growing up at this point in the book, becoming that teenager in that phase where they go from, you know, like just looking up to you and everything that you do to kind of, you know, trying to figure out their own independence and place in the world. And um, like I maybe she wasn't quite a teenager yet, but she was having a tantrum or something, I think, around the time um of of the book. But um, you know, it like to me, this parenting advice is coming in through the book of like remember that as they grow and they change, you're not like they're they're not gonna become this perfect being. None of us are. We're all beautifully imperfect. And um, how she just was had this, she was at peace with that. And she had this expectation that like as she continues to grow and to change, um, you know, we're letting go of the the things that we've already conquered that we knew, um, and were embracing the the person that they're continuing to become. And who doesn't want a parental figure in their life who is looking at them through those eyes? Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Um I think that to me was one of the the um beautiful recognitions within the book of like this idea of perfection as a fallacy. And so instead of saying, like, I want to help her become the best version of herself or I want to help, she she is preparing herself. Like it is, it is her, um, Joan, who re is saying, like, I I'm excited to see who she becomes in the imperfections. Like, I don't know, like it just it it's poetic.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

It's beautiful. It is beautiful, and it's just such good framing as a parent because you know, when you first become a parent, it's like you you feel all of this pressure, at least I did, to figure out how to be the best parent to help your kid become the best human. And I look by no means am I suggesting that I did that right because um thank goodness children are resilient. But um, you know, I think it it is, it's like there's a lot of judgment that can come in around like I didn't do enough to give them the opportunity to be, you know, have everything that they needed. And it's just not about chasing perfection. Um, you know, it's about like just letting them unfold into the person that they're gonna become. It's just a it was beautiful. I I'm I'm using all of the wrong words to say how I feel about it, but it was beautiful. Um all right, next quote Joan realized he was terrified. This is where she's in training. Um, and there's a guy that's been bullying Joan um a little bit, and um and and she like struggles with that because it's something that you just have to put up with as women in a in a man's world um that they're in, but um but this person, they're up in in a plane, uh going through zero gravity training together. And so she said, Joan realized he was terrified, and it did not excuse his attitude, but she understood finally. Jimmy had been told from a young age that fear and failing and trying and wanting and openness and kindness and sincerity made him weak. And because he had believed it, he learned to suppress all of those things. And when he saw those traits in others, he hated them because he hated himself. And that is like just so in keeping with like one of my core beliefs about life and humans and the way things work. Like we get told by society based on many things, our gender being one of those foundational things, um, you know, how we're supposed to behave, how we're supposed to think, how we're supposed to feel, what we're supposed to do. And because we think inside that box when we're stuck inside those communities and we don't see what else could be true, like what else could we do? You get stuck inside of that mental model subconsciously. And then you also despise it, but you push that down because you don't think there's anything you can do about it. And so then when other people display those traits that you've been taught to hate about yourself, but you you secretly keep them in and hate them and push them down, then you lash out at the other person because they represent uh to you all those things that you dislike about yourself. And it's that adage that, you know, how somebody responds to you is only really saying anything about them and not you.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah. And I do think like in this story, I one of the things that to me, Joan does how she moves through the world, and I think the author did a really good job is like she observes a lot. Um she is she knows like she has she needs to be present, she needs to be physically at places to um try and make it in this male-dominated industry, even though she rather be doing things on her own, but she knows she has she needs to be places, um, but she observes and she underst like she seeks to understand, um, but also understands like in that there's judgment. Um and so I kind of like this duality that you get to see and hear from her like inner voice about like, well, this is these are my feelings on this, but as I've come to learn or as I've gotten to know them more, like these are the things that I like just teaching us that people are multifaceted. We are complex creatures who who are more than what you see on the surface.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah, that concept of intersectionality, right? We are multiple things at the same time. We are not, you know, the the identifiers. Um okay, so next quote No matter how easy it was for Joan to lose herself in this new life, she was constantly aware of the cold, hard borders of it. The world could not care for her and Vanessa as they cared for each other. It wouldn't matter how pure the warmth in her chest felt. It wouldn't matter that Joan had loved and accepted so many others. Um and I I liked that quote because it makes me want to cry because it's so real. Um, but I liked it because it is so real. Like it's it's how people who um you have to hide the things or feel like they have to hide the things about themselves that don't fit in feel. It's the experience that you go through when you feel like the things about yourself are things that the broader group of people that you're within are against. And um, for me, it was just such a poignant empathy builder of like, how do I find the words to explain the impact? Um so I thought that was beautiful. I don't know what you thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

It brings tears to my eyes every time I hear that quote because um I've lived it, I've experienced it. I I know what that is like to be afraid of what others will think and how I will be judged. Um, even though the things that I hear or heard growing up um should supersede that stuff, but it doesn't. So I like I think it is a very um it creates a point that I think how we say it more commonly is like, love is love. It doesn't matter who you love. Like I think those are the things that you hear, but in this story, I think like that's that sentiment, but with a whole lot more like flesh around it. Like it is it is a um a real thing. And um I've I I know I've had thoughts, but nowhere near as well articulated as a few years. Yeah, it was beautifully articulated.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

It's beautiful. Um, okay, next quote. We're getting deeper in, guys. I would go so far as to say that as a human beings, we are less of a who and more of a when. We are a moment in time when all of our cells have come together in this body, but our atoms are many things before and they will be many things after. And I think this is another one of the ways that she's painting this picture of like where we fit in time.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah. I think this is around the point in the book where when her and Vanessa are um having this like, I don't know, philosophical, emotional, like this conversation around their um I idyllic beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yes. Um It's amazing to me that I can just like rattle off these quotes and you're like, this is where this was.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

And meanwhile, I'm like, I didn't bring any of I didn't bring any quotes.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

I'm just like that is where it is in the book, but I wouldn't have been able to place that.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Well, so I this piece to me, as someone who, as I said, I'm on this journey of kind of figuring out what still fits and what what is time to take off this idea. They're talking about um the reality of of God and how we um see, feel, and experience it. And I think to some this could be a little bit jarring in the story because it does it feels a little odd, like that something so like with as much science that is like in all of this, that you would go into this theoretical conversation. Well, theological theological and theoretical, like you know, um, but the way that she handled it to me was so beautiful, and I had never in my life heard it put this way. And she actually, the author um quotes that um this is actually a Jewish philosopher who who brings this idea that um God is in the Milky Way. Um, and it's uh I think you pronounce his name Bar Baruch Spinoza, and it's it's a philosophy that he put forward. Um, but she's talking about it in like her understanding of it, Joan's understanding of it in the story. And it's just so like when you hear the thing, like, you know, people are all connected. The way that she kind of uh creates this picture and the imagery that she uses to me was wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yeah, she just creates a beautiful picture with her words. And I think for me, this this it's it's like these some of these quotes are like background information, right? But that stood out to me. But this concept that which is so in keeping with, you know, part of my belief system, like the the world is so much bigger, life is so much bigger than us. And as humans, we tend to think of it from our own to vite perspective, not even just the people around us, but just like time-boxed into where we are. And sure, there's history and there's future, but that's like kind of, you know, not the focal point. And I think part of what we talk about from a meditation standpoint, like one of the things that I think is a healthy meditation practice is just to focus on remembering like this world is so much bigger than me. Time is has existed before I was here. It's going to exist after I'm gone. I am but just a speck. And um that doesn't mean that I'm insignificant. It just means the things that feel so big in this moment, like when you zoom out in the grander scheme of things, we're really all a part of this shared ecosystem.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Correct. The shared experience. Like we we only view our our part of it, like even in the afterlife part of it. Like, and I think that's the point that she's making is like you're not, we live this life. So in our through our eyeballs, through our lived experiences, yet whenever you do take that larger step back, it it's this it's this bigger connection. We're all sharing this.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yes, I'm not so much a who as I am a when.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

In the the larger being.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Um, and uh like I that's not an American sort of way of thinking um culturally. I do think that it probably resonates with other cultures that we haven't as much been exposed to. But for me, it was like just such a beautiful, um, like a beautiful reminder of where we fit into the the larger puzzle.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Um, and it kind of takes the pressure off a little bit, you know, like in a way. Um not not in a not in a bad way, just in a like when things feel so intense, it's like you just kind of zoom back out and remember, like, you know, I don't know. Sometimes the brain gets you feeling a certain way, and then you get perspective and you go, Okay, all right. And you calm that down.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

I actually can do this.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

I got this. Um okay, next quote. You know, Vanessa said, when you're flying a plane, you can't see people on the ground. All you can see are the towns they live in and the neighborhoods they fall asleep in. And from up there, everyone is so alike. They have so much in common, and they can't see it, but I can when I'm up there. And um, oh, like it makes my eyes sting when I read that. Because what I love about this quote is this like reminder that we are more alike than we are different. And I know I say that a lot, but we are, we're more alike than we are different, even with the people that we don't want to be like. We're more alike than we are different. And if we just started focusing on the ways that we're alike instead of the ways that we're different, like we could live in so much more harmony.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Right. And it goes back to like the quotes that you have been sharing. It's about that perspective. Whenever we're so close to it, it's hard. Like we, it's it's our lives that we're we're focusing on. Like, I think what um the author did really well here is like she literally is using an analogy of being so far above that you can't see the specifics, you can only see the similarities.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

And it's not that far. It is not that far above a of a distance.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

It's not that far. Um, but yeah, you know, when you are in a plane, flying there in a plane at this point, when you're in a plane flying above, you know, and you look out the window, it's the world does have a different perspective. And if only we could choose to zoom up and use that perspective more often, like we would just be kinder, you know, um, instead of focusing on the things that we disagree on. Because how how do you ever get to a place of happiness when all you're focused on is how we're different?

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Um And I think that's what we mean whenever we're like start at us all being human. That's that we all have that in common.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah. Um so two more quotes. But these were the moments of legacy she found the most compelling. The chance to share something of the past with a person who could bring it further into the future. Um and this quote, Joan, this is Joan thinking, and she's thinking about the role that she has, the role she's playing as not in the first class, but the second class of female astronauts and how she's a part of something bigger. And um, what I loved about that is we we did a um episode about death and kind of our mortality um and and understanding that and just this concept, like this interwoven way of thinking that like it's not I'm here and then I'm gone. It's it's how I can play a part in the existence of the human race as it continues, um and in making an impact on that, that isn't about me. It's just about, you know, the us as a whole, the collective we. And I just thought that was a beautiful, a beautiful way to look at it. Like the things that I am doing, the way that I am stepping up, like how I am choosing to be courageous is setting the stage for um, you know, people that will come after. Uh, and I think when we talk about representation, like that's such a beautiful part of what representation is really all about. And I know we haven't gotten into that yet, but it's just like the underlying tone here.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah. And I think also um in the book, the author has characters who um I don't know if you would say like they're their enemy or something like that, but they're the the way in which the characters operate and go through life are very different. So, like where Joan is thinking more about this larger impact um that she is potentially like her contributions are going to go towards. There are others that she is going through this process with who are more concerned about themselves, themselves and where their name is in history, not so much what their contributions are, which I just thought was such a a great way to show how people work in everyday life. Some are there for themselves to deliver, to grow, to to achieve something personal. Others are there for a larger reason. And we don't really know the motivating factors unless people are willing to share that with us.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And so I don't think one is right or wrong either, necessarily, but I think they certainly impact the experience that you have as you go through the journey. And if you think about Lydia there to kind of make a name for herself, and she's really stressed all the time because it feels competitive. It feels, if you go back to our um conversation around scarcity mindset, you know, there can only be one number one. And um, you know, Joan's perspective on this is we are all the number one. We are all a collective moving together, um, parts of the whole. And, you know, while that doesn't mean that she is sacrificing her own experience or what she wants, um, it's not about being a martyr for the whole. Uh, it's about like the goal being to move the collective forward while also getting to enjoy the experience along the way. Um, which I thought was beautiful because you just don't hear that often. Um, last quote that I brought is happiness is so hard to come by. I don't understand why anyone would begrudge anyone else for managing to find some of it. And I mean, I think how can I say anything beyond that? When it comes to pride and the LBGTQ community, like happiness is so hard to come by in general. And so why do we have to throw hate at people? Um because they've managed to find some.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Right. But even going beyond, like as we've talked about, like, yes, we are in pride season, but this goes this goes across the board.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

It does. It does. It absolutely does.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Why would we begrudge people who are actively contributing, who are present, who are members of society?

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Like Yeah, and they don't have to be perfect in order to be beautiful, you know? Um, but to it just be like I'm not. And you're, you know, like we're none of us are perfect. We know no one is. Um, and yet when people are kind of other in our minds, that in-group, outgroup, we tend to like look for the ways that they're imperfect to sort of discredit them. And um it's like, why would you begrudge somebody happiness? Because it's so hard to come by. Um, but our brains aren't wired for happiness, they're wired for survival, and we'll talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Right. Well, let's actually let's dive into that. Cause I do think there is part of we we had read this book. We do not claim to be a book review cast.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

We're not a book club. Um it's not what this is.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

But as we were entering um uh as we had read this book, we had gone back and forth about like, do we want to discuss it? And then there was this idea that kind of came through around representation. And we hear representation a lot. Um, I will say a lot around this time of year, um, because I think it is it is one of the areas that we still are don't um have a lot of progress, or maybe progress like we take a few steps forward, we take a few steps back.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

We don't have the momentum that that uh serves the percentage of the population by any stretch.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

Said so beautifully. We just don't. Um so as we were thinking about that, like this book has a lot of those themes weaved throughout. Both uh a woman um enter knowingly entering into a space of a um uh of a male-dominated organization, um, doing things for the first time. There are conversations that the characters have about being women who are who have to operate within this um uh masculine-driven work area, and like the conversation they had around that I thought was really meaningful. Yeah. But also like this idea of um not having seen this before and being not not having seen people who identify within an LGBTQ community uh operating in this space when when it was still kind not kind of, it was looked down on. Like maybe.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

No, like she if she gets found out, she's gonna be fired. It would be a disgrace to all of NASA. I mean, and it's like that there that is a lived experience people still have today, 45 years later.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Um well, and even look at like um when when you look back in history, don't ask, don't ask, don't tell. That was the way of creating a creating a barrier. Like you can be who you want to be, just don't be it here.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

So that's And it's like, oh well, we got the the LG part, you know, um, kind of mostly integrated, sort of like it's it's you know, more taboo to be against being, you know, same-sex couple than it is to to not. But then what about the rest of the community? Um, like that hasn't made its its way its way there yet. And so I um and not to say that like I mean, I don't have to worry about losing my right to be married to the person I love. Um and I know that you can't say the same.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

And um that is a reality that we like to put from our minds, either because we think, oh, well, I don't think that way, or we think I don't know what to do about it. I don't know what to do about it. So I just dismiss it. It's uncomfortable. Um, I think part of what I love about the way that this book is written is it was so obvious to me that Joan does not choose to be gay. Joan is gay and she doesn't even realize that.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

And um the thing is that when you don't get it and you're brought up in a culture and a climate and a community that is telling you that being gay is a choice and it's a bad choice, and you know, you'll be punished for it, and all of these things, um you you focus on the will you be punished, you know, is it bad, but you don't focus on the is it a choice?

SPEAKER_03 53:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

And that just becomes a subtext. And so people are walking around thinking this is you know what you've ever chosen. And it's not about what you have chosen, it's about who you are. And so Joan just thinks that she's different. Um she thinks that she's love is just not for her. She thinks she's just odd in that way. And when she finally figures out, um, wait a second, love is for me. I just I love somebody that society says is not appropriate. Like she's not making a choice to be gay. She's realizing it's who she's always been. And I think that is that is the one of the foundational misunderstandings for people who um, you know, have legislation against LGBTQ community. Um, and I know it's mainly there's a lot of it targeted towards our our trans community right now. And um, they're not choosing this. They're not choosing it because they think it's fun. They're it is who they are, and they're just trying to be who they are instead of like the pain that comes from trying to live as somebody that you're pretending to be and you aren't.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

And so Yeah, and I think a lot of um I think whenever you look at Joan's experience, she recognizes feelings, uh, either having them or not having them. And by not having them, oh well, that must mean love isn't for me. Yeah. Like it will as as the story builds, you are you are being introduced to a character uh who believes they're a certain way. Um because that that's just what what they see, feel, experience.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

It's all they know, it's all they can see.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Exactly. And then as they move into this other um place in their life, they begin to experience these feelings, feelings that they never thought that they could have. And so I think like that's that's part of the beauty in how this was written is because I think a lot of times, um, at least growing up for me, like not not seeing um people within within the spaces that I uh I was in, like uh I and hearing the negativity about what what it meant to be part of the LGBT community, I was afraid. And it that's that self-discovery wasn't um like an innocent um experience. It was a tumultuous one.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Ah, absolutely, with a lot of judgment, right? A lot of self-judgment. And, you know, so I think what one of the first places we want to start with this discussion is most of us don't consciously decide what's possible. We absorb it from the world around us. It comes through family, culture, religion, media, school, our hometown community. Like um, it's all of those things around us that show us what is possible. And to be the kind of person that imagines something as being possible that they have never seen or heard. Like, that's quite unique. If you think about that, um, we describe those folks in history as visionaries who are able to create something out of nothing, um, to be able to see a world um either whether they're, you know, visionary community activists through our time or those people who are creating the way that we live. If you think about Steve Jobs, however you feel about him as a human, I mean, I think it's inarguable that he was a visionary. He could see the need um and the use for something that we now live. It's so attached to.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

Yeah, we can't imagine a life without it.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

And yet we lived a life without it. Like I grew up in a time where it wasn't there and then it was, and I can't even imagine life before it. Um, yet there was it it didn't exist in the world. Like that's a visionary. And not many people have that ability. And so most of us, we don't consciously decide what's possible. What's possible is decided for us by subconsciously by the things that we see. And so representation is so important because it's not about if you if you can see it, you can be it. Like, sure, that is a part of representation, and I believe in that. But that implies that you're gonna become it. What about the parts where it is already who you are, and yet you don't see it, and so you can't even label it. You don't know what it is, you just feel different. Um I think that's that's like the where we begin.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

I think that's a good place to start.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

You know, I still find myself struggling with this today. It requires this intention to see beyond the barriers that life paints for us. And um I I feel like this is where focused meditation can help more. But even if I think about like um if I think about where I live, what life can be like, my job. I've talked a little bit about like here I was on this career journey, and um I decided to take a sabbatical. And my thought was, I'm gonna become irrelevant. I'm ruining my whole life. Like everything I've worked so hard for, I'm throwing everything away. And yet I was so compelled to make this choice that I had to take the risk. But why did I think that? I mean, I didn't have a ton of examples of people who, you know, worked their whole life for something in their career and then stepped away. Um, and so I, you know, of course that's what I thought. That would, those were the limits that were defined for me by the world that I was living in. Um, so I I mean I can relate in a in a small way. I don't know. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

I do think like I truly believe in the mentality of um uh you if you can see it, you can you can become it. Now, whether you want to become it or not, uh indifferent. I do believe that there are um social, cultural, religious norms that influence all of those things. So whether you whether you can identify with something, whether or not you feel like it's something that you you desire or want, I think we are we are being conditioned in certain ways. Yeah. Um and as we as we move through life, um those things whether it seems um as I'm saying all of this, it just seems very theoretical. Um, but it's like it is growing up, we are taught things. We are like they are ingrained into us. And then whenever you hit this crossroads of of well, if I believe this way, then this is the outcome. But that is what I am. So how do I absorb how how do I ration rationalize it? How do I how do I create this understanding? And so I sit I totally hear what you're saying about like this it's hard to imagine being in going through something that you've not done before or stepping out and hoping for the best. Um But I also think there are so many things in our lives that like it's that response mechanism in us that's it's either scare, we're scared, and so we don't want to go do it. Or um we're and so I I don't know, I'm very I'm this kind of goes into what we were talking about earlier around this idea of um uh I don't think there's a right answer. I don't think there's a wrong answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

I just think like it's the both are it's both are true, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Both are true, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

I think for me, how the story so beautifully lays this out is that Joan is gay, she's always been gay, she just didn't know it. She didn't know it because that was not that was not even a thought that could occur to her. Um and so she thought all of these other things about herself that were not conducive to a positive self-outlook. Um and then once she saw it, she immediately recognized it and said, like this thing clicked, and she's a smart woman, right? Yeah. And then this thing clicked, like oh. Um and so for her, like I love that moment because one, it represents this is not a choice. But two, the it's why representation matters so much, because it's not just if you can be it, if you can see it, you can be it. It's if you can see it, then you can see it in yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

You know, you can, yeah, you can recognize it. Whereas society may just be telling you all kinds of other things, right? The the world that you've grown up in, I say society, I mean that very broadly, right? But just correct the world that's been built for you may be telling you all kinds of other things. I know we were talking about this conceptually, and um it is still, I feel like it's on the outside edges of my brain still. But um, like I think if I don't dream in other languages that I've never heard before, because I've never heard them and they exist and I know that, but that's all I know. So I can't dream in them because I've never heard them before. Um, but once you start to hear them, then they start to become real to you. And then you start to find places where you recognize them. Um, that's the best analogy I can come up with. It's it's maybe 30% of the the concept. But um, you know, I want to talk about uh there's this, there is this concept um that that we talked through as we were talking about this of representation with a mirror versus a window concept. And I think, you know, when we uh culturally talk about representation, we do talk a lot about representation as a window through which we see lives different from our own. And we build this empathy and it helps expand our understanding and it helps us change and evolve and refine our beliefs to be more in line with our core values because we can see, you know, what life is like in somebody else's shoes. But then there is also this mirror concept of representation where I can start to see myself more clearly because I now see something that I can relate to in somebody else. And it helps me understand who I am. It builds recognition, it builds self-acceptance. Um, and so, like obviously, this applies from an LGBTQ standpoint. I have um trans people who I am close to who have said to me, I have felt this way for many years, and yet I just couldn't name it, I could not label it. Um, I didn't know what it was until I finally saw it. And I realized this is why I feel this way. And um, and then I have watched and as they have leaned into that, their whole aura has changed. I mean, their experience joy and um like how could I deny that that is just who they are?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

Um, and it it isn't really about whether I get it or believe it or understand it. Like those aren't even the right questions to ask. It's just so obvious. And so to me, I'm just so grateful for the people that take that first step to live courageously, knowing that all the tomatoes are going to be thrown at them, their lives are going to be threatened. Um, the people who have lost their lives for living as their true selves because they are misunderstood. Because in I I don't think you should have to go through that, obviously. But if you can't see it, you can't label it. And so you're mislabeling it and calling it something else. And I think that's what's so important about representation. Um, and it's it's you know, I I say, um I wear pride so that others don't have to hide. Um because I want people to know that like I I love you the way you are. Um, you have a safe place here, you're safe with me. You should exist, you have every right to exist, you should exist with joy. And I think it's important to say that because the world is not saying that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

Yeah. I do I think this window concept is um, I told you I had never heard of this before until um we you brought this to the conversation. I do think what's super interesting about this idea of a window is that um if you use it like in the analogy of a home, right? Like you can see in, but you don't really know the conversations that are being had. You don't know the exper the lived experiences within those walls. And and maybe that's where I'm getting a little hung up on on this idea around um it can exist, but we don't know it yet. Like it's or we don't have the words for it, or we can't experience it yet. We can't identify it within ourselves because um I don't know, I think so many people have lived in fear, have have hid themselves and um haven't lived that life. And even some who have who have like, you know, taken their toe and and and slowly making their way. Like, I'm glad any progress is great progress. But I do like some of part of me is I'm working through this personally, I'm frustrated at people who came before me who were looked at um as good, wholesome people. And I am now learning that they identify with the LGBTQ plus community. And they are the the impression that they had, like not on my life. I didn't know these people by any stretch of the imagination, but those were the people that we put up as this is who we should be, this is what we shouldn't we should uh try to be. This this normalcy, I'm using air quotes here, because I don't believe that there's a normal. Um but like it to me gets it I get in my feels about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

I don't I'm not following to like explain more.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

Yeah, so um I I grew up in super religious spaces, and I have come to learn that there are many people within um the religious spaces who are now coming out and living their truth as part of the LGBTQ community. And I don't want to come across as I'm not like supportive of those people. I absolutely think you should, and I understand that um, you know, your livelihood and your ability back then um depended on your ability to to hide, or you know, maybe you hadn't discovered who you were quite yet. But I do look at it and I'm I see that the influence that they had on society, on the community that I grew up in. And I can't help but just think, God, if I could have just seen this person in that way, have I had I been able to experience that, maybe some of that, those hard feelings and that self-doubt and and all of that struggle that I went through, maybe I could have better seen what could be.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

Yeah, I mean, that's so real. And and that is real, and a big part of why representation matters. To to live authentically is hard and vulnerability is hard. And to be in a place where society um, you know, has deemed uh the choices that you're making are unpopular. I mean, you become a leper.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:55

Yeah, and let's like let's take popularity out of it. You're what we are told our are uh you know forever um ending is either good or bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:06

Yeah, you're gonna go to hell forever. Um, yeah, absolutely. And you know, the with a with a lot of fear behind that described in graphic detail about what that will mean to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:17

As a 13-year-old child, that is what I am grappling with.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

It's not fair. And I would actually label that a part of conversion therapy, um, to be honest. I I it is it is not kind or fair, or and I think this is where a lack of um not fostering a lack of understanding within oneself causes people to show up in this way to others. Um and part of why one of my beliefs and values is to always try and see somebody else's perspective. And I'm not always great at it, but it's part of why it's so important to me because um, you know, yeah, that is that that is a lived experience, it's very real, and you should never have had to go gone through that, and yet it is uh unfortunately all too common. And um, you know, I I think that's a part of why it's so important for us to show up. Um, I am, you know, not uh I am not a lesbian, I'm not gay, I'm not bi, I'm not trans, I'm you know, but I am absolutely um a safe space and a supporter and an ally, and that's how I can lean in.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:42

Um and I do, and I I do not want to say by any stretch of the imagination that people who have not lived this experience are not like I am, I I the community in which I have found myself now is a beautiful one and one that I am still um figuring out my place in, and I am still avoiding.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

I'm just saying every single person listening to this conversation has the ability to make an impact that is opposite of the one that you experienced growing up. And um, you don't have to be, you don't have to wear the label in order to carry the flag. And um I think this is a part of why so I I do think sometimes you're right. People do recognize within themselves, and then they just feel unsafe because you know, they're told all of these really negative things about what's going to happen to them. And it is unfair. Um, and life is not fair. And I hate to say that, but it is so true, right? Um, and I think part of our job is building the future that comes after us and making it so that, you know, as a as a parent, one of the the things that I think our core job is, is to put our children in a position that is just better than where we found ourselves. And so um that's the goal that I keep always aiming for is how do I give them a starting place that is better than where I found myself? And really, if you think about evolution, like that is the concept of evolution, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:21

Um, how does how does a uh a species survive and thrive? Um, it just continues to get better, right? Um, and so like when I think about these marginalized communities of which the LGBT community is one I'm a huge advocate of it is my job to try and do things that create a future that is better than the one that exists today. So I can't go back in time and make changes to the things that happened before or even the way that I showed up or didn't show up before. But what I can do is from this point forward do everything I can to educate myself and show up, you know, in the future. And I think that's the thing that that we have to recognize in the the um representation as a window. Like it is so important. And it's doubly important because not only are we giving somebody a leg up from where they stand today, like it we gotta help them get out of the hole that somebody else dug for them to begin with. Um I don't know. That's my thoughts around that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

Sorry, I feel like I took us off on a total dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

No, it's it's like so real and relevant and important. And I know there are so many people that can relate to that. And, you know, okay, so how does this whole topic relate to self-care? Um, which is what we're all about. I mean, we know that when people spend years trying to fix things that actually just needed to be understood, it creates harm and it keeps you from living the best life. And so whether it's, you know, that you're gay or trans or a part of the community, or whether it's you're an introvert who thinks that you're just antisocial, um, but you're not antisocial, you just socialize differently and you spend all this time trying to be an extrovert. And that's comes with a lot of negative consequences for introverts. Um, if you're a creative person who just thinks that you're irresponsible, because you're creative, your brain works differently. Um, yeah, everybody is creative, I gotta say. But if, you know, if it's that side of your brain versus the logic side of your brain that you lead with, um, you know, a lot of times you get coined as irresponsible. And that's that's not really it at all. Um, if you are a highly sensitive person and people describe you as emotional and weak, um, you know, it takes a lot of courage to be sensitive. Um, if you're a queer person and you just think you're broken, um, you're not broken. If you're a person who doesn't want the traditional life path and you just think you're failing because you're not hitting the marks of somebody else's measure of success. Um, so it's not about self-improvement sometimes, it's just about recognition and how much energy do we spend trying to fit ourselves into the stories that never were ours to begin with.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:23

Yeah. And I think that's like the the self um when you're reflecting on who you are and the things that you that people tell you that you are. Like, oh, well, you're an introvert. Well, am I am I an introvert? Like, uh maybe, but uh don't that doesn't have to be your label. That does not have to be something that you identify.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:50

We love to label stuff, don't we? We do. We love to put labels.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:53

It goes back to that like in and out group thinking that you've you've talked about many a times, like because our brains process stuff whenever it's in a nice tidy box that we can put people in, people, things, whatever you want to call it, like n but we have to understand that there is much more than that, and we don't have to take that on. And and I think for um one of the things that's really important, um, that has been important within the LGBTQ community for um like representation in film and TV and things like that, is stop portraying them as like either the the funny character or the ones that always have to die or the ones that are always addicted to drugs, like they're people living full, whole lives with full whole stories. Exactly. And so whenever we when at least when I was growing up and I saw those characters, that's what I associate with. There are people who go out all the time. There are people who are in bars, who are drinking, who are doing drugs, and I'm like, I don't really see myself there. But I think like that's where that's where that self-care part can come in. Like that doesn't have to define you. That doesn't have to be like just because that that's the representation that you've seen, that doesn't mean that that's you. Like be yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:11

Be yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

Um find out who that is, be imperfect, uh imperfect on your journey because that's that's what we're all here doing, true working through our lives, going through this world and this huge universe that we're actually all in it together.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:28

And, you know, to share an example of this, um, not related to to the LGBTQ community, um, you know, one of the things that I have really grappled with in life is um this idea that I'm like failing to meet my potential. And um, it's often because there's a version of life outlined for intellectual achievement, Ivy League school, some super boss career, like things that I have, you know, in part opted out of. Um but I feel like I'm failing because there was this potential to be able to achieve that. And I didn't, even though I don't even know if I would if I if I want those things. You know, when I'm asked, well, why does that bother you so much? Like, what is it that you're missing out on? You have agency of yourself. You can choose to do anything in your life from this day forward if you want. And then I have to sit and go, okay, well, do I want to pursue those things? I mean, I actively unpursued some of them. So um, like, why am I bent about this?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:37

Um and you know, it takes some real hard reflection. Um, but you know, there are these ideas that we have about what success looks like that we didn't create for ourselves, but we did take them on. And you can choose to turn them off. So I think that's I think that's an important um when you talk about, and I noticed this too, even about my beloved Hallmark movies, it's like the gay characters are always the side characters, and this like we gotta do better. You know, so are the Asian characters and the fat characters and the you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

But that's that to me is like where this we get to choose. And I've recently we've we talk about it a lot here on the podcast around this idea of curiosity, and it's not the answer isn't so important, it's more about the question. And I've recently been inundated on my social media by um this uh uh Duke professor, uh Aaron Dinan, I think is how you say his last name. Um, and the he teaches in their entrepreneur program uh and has his students do things, and it's not so much about them completing the task um or like how they it's not so important about the end of the assignment to get the grade. It's that in between, between giving the assignment and your ability to deliver on it. What is your thought process? Why are you doing certain things? Um, what are the questions that you may have to be able to get there? Because whenever we talk about success, whose definition are we going off of?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

Yeah. Like, did you know you're allowed to create your own?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:22

No, I did not.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:24

You are allowed to create your own definition of success and then to boldly wear it uh for everyone to see and to claim it. Um, and it is the people that do that that I think we kind of get a little jealous of sometimes, at least me. And I go, uh like, what? I am so jealous. How did they get to do that? It's well, they they stepped into it. I mean, they just they decided that the definitions that were out there weren't for them. And so they just went and chased down what they wanted. And yeah, I always say, like, if you think about middle school, middle school is one of the toughest times. I remember to be alive, to be a human. And um, and what I wish I knew then that I know now is that it is really just the individuals who are portraying, like faking the most amount of confidence that become the most popular. It really isn't at all about having any of the right attributes. It's about faking the most confidence and people will follow. Um, and you know, maybe that's not 100% true all the time, but it is pretty, it is pretty true.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:36

Probably pretty accurate. I do think um Frank says something a lot, uh, like as he talks to our nieces and nephews and and people who are, you know, in these earlier phases of life, um making their way into the world. And he reminds them that this idea of popularity and wanting to um have an image and trying to protect that stuff, like um, you don't want to embarrass yourself. Like, go embarrass yourself. Like there, this is uh the only life we get to to lead. Don't hide from things, don't be so afraid that you don't go do something because of how you may look to others.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:19

That's such great advice.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:20

I know, and I've heard him say that so many times, Jen. And uh I've told you, like I am I am on this new self-discovery journey personally. So, this idea of like trying to define what success looks like, trying to understand, you know, why I feel like I need the career that I have and asking the question, but why? Who says that? Who said that that's what I have to do? Who says that's what success looks like? Like I am I am on this journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:47

Right. Exactly. Not you and me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:51

We absolutely did not.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:53

Well, we said it for a while. We did. Then we decided to stop saying that and start just living. Embraced it, right? Um, I think in it's so it's so great that you bring up Frank because um a part of what we can do for our self-care in like what do we do about this? Now we realize these are the kind of challenges. What do we do? Audit your inputs, or said in a way that's maybe a little more gen, curate your possibilities. There's the marketing spin. Um, so you know, who are you surrounding yourself with? Are you surrounding yourself with voices like Frank who are saying, like, don't be afraid, just go do it? Or are you surrounding yourself with media, TV, friends, podcasts, social media, books, mentors, community, religion that's telling you something different? Um, and I think this is where I think some of the neuroscience comes in. So often subconsciously, we tend to surround ourselves with things that feel familiar. Um, they say when you're picking a partner in life, what attracts you to them, especially early in life, is often the familiarity that that you see from your past. And sometimes that familiarity is not positive.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:15

Um, sometimes it's it's a negative thing. Sometimes that familiarity is like a shared experience, a shared traumatic experience that maybe you haven't expressed to each other yet you see um the familiarity in others. And um, and this is like our brain loves familiarity. It loves it more than it loves happiness. Our brains, we've said this so many times, are not wired for happiness. They're wired for survival. And from a survival standpoint, if you can predict what is happening next, your brain requires less energy to be constantly guessing what's going to happen next so you can respond. Um, so it doesn't have to, you know, invest so much in monitoring for these threats, because even if it's painful, it's predictable. And um, this is why people repeat unhealthy relationship patterns. They consume the same content over and over again. They stay in communities that don't fit them until it becomes so painful that they have no choice to move on. They stay in a career that they're not happy with, working like a cog in the machine, like explained in Joe versus the volcano, which is a great movie from way back in time. Um, and they resist new possibilities even when they want change. Uh, so you know, it's easy to kind of look across the way and be like, well, you're not happy. Do something different. But that is not how our brains are wired. Um, so you have to first recognize that to be able to start surrounding yourself with voices that speak to what you do want so that it starts to become more familiar. So while you don't have a choice with like the the the Surroundings that you had before you know you became in charge of yourself. If if you're listening to this podcast, I'm guessing that you have uh reached an age at which you have some agency over yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:13

Maybe just a little, but you got agency.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

And um, and so start thinking about uh just those little things you can do. Can I um change like if you can't change your Facebook feed, maybe like go dark for a while, maybe, but think about who are the creators that you're following? Um, what's the content that you're consuming? How are you consuming media? How what shows are you watching? Um, what podcasts are you listening to? What books are you reading? Who are the people in your friend sphere that you're spending the most time with? Are those people that you want to emulate, or does it just feel familiar? I've talked about this in multiple episodes before. So look, it's the same advice coming back again, right? But um, that's a way that you can start to push yourself outside of what's normal. And if you start to feel uncomfortable, that's when you know that you're doing it right. Because change in in order to create change, you're just gonna have to get a little uncomfy.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:16

Yep. And I think like that's so important. Um, I'm working through this uh uh workbook with a friend. Um, and part of it is truly understanding like that in that inner voice and like who like how it's been created and and like what's developed as we get older, we have a hard time like we believe that that's our inner voice. But whenever you start to listen to the things that it says, like what are those echoes of? Who who has said things like that to you before? And maybe it's a parent, maybe it's a teacher, maybe it's a combination of all of these things that have come together to help um create this internal dialogue. But whenever we take the time to kind of pull those apart and truly understand, it really becomes important that we we understand we have agency over those thoughts. And then how do we start surrounding ourselves with the people and the uh voices and inspiration that's going to help move us into a more positive?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:14

What's this workbook sounds like? It sounds like guided journaling.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:19

A little bit, yeah. Some of it is. It it absolutely has a journaling component that you're supposed to do every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:25

Sounds like journaling. It sounds like journaling, reflecting, being thoughtful.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:32

Yeah, it really is. And I know like we do give this advice a lot, but I think what's really important is that it's because it's real. Like, and I personally am experiencing this in in my life as as we are doing this, and it is it there are times it is uncomfortable, and it's like, oh, like wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:51

Yeah. So here's your brain science fact, your neuroscience fact. The um the reticular activating system or the RAS as it is sometimes referred to.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:03

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:04

Okay, okay. Um, that's where the brain receives this overwhelming amount of information every second and like filters it. And um, this is a part of the brain that decides what deserves our attention. So once something becomes important to you, say you've been meditating, journaling about it, thinking about it, surrounding yourself with an environment, curating your environment, um, you start to see it everywhere. So this is important from a represent a representation standpoint because sometimes it's about not having the voices out there, and sometimes it's about the voices being out there and like not being in their sphere. Um and so and like obviously we need more of them, but sometimes it's about putting ourselves in that sphere. And then once it becomes important to you, you start seeing it everywhere. So, like, you know, when you go to buy that red car and then all all of a sudden everyone drives a red car everywhere. Um, they're all over the place. In fact, the same make and model as you start showing up everywhere is everywhere. Um, you become interested in a career and then you see opportunities everywhere. I don't know that people can relate to that these days.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:22

Um times are hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:25

You start questioning an identity and suddenly you encounter stories that resonate with you. Like this is actually how it works. And so um, those things weren't absent before. It's just that the brain was not prioritizing them. So think of it like the social media algorithm. Your brain works in the same way. It is going to be the echo chamber that um, you know, prioritizes the things that you're surrounding yourself with. And so um, what happens when you start to see the discomfort that we feel as evidence that we're encountering a possibility that our brain hasn't seen before? Um, you know, it can change like the world that we're living in, which feels a little bit uncomfortable, but you start to progress towards what you want. It doesn't mean you have to like turn your entire life upside down. Like you could just say, I'm gonna start like seeking out one podcast or one author or, you know, one creator on social, or, you know, this could I'm gonna spend more time with one friend, or I'm gonna go to this one social networking thing, or you know, you could you can just start small, but then you'll start to see opportunities for those things open up in life.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:49

I think what's super interesting about this RAS system, because we talk about how the brain looks for familiarity, right? Because that's where the comfort is, and that's like even if it's not good for us, we it's at least pain or trauma that we know. The RAS system is is filtering things and it decides what deserves our attention. And so if you find yourself having or being in places where you are constantly kind of being um, I don't know if triggered's the right word, but you you are in that space um the spiral, maybe. Yeah. Um how'd you get there? Yeah, and and it because all of these things like they just happen in our brains. We've talked about that so many times. They just happen. So being intentional is being aware that these things happen unknowingly to us, um, and then trying to insert those opportunities to be intentional. So whenever you do add that podcast or you do add that that newsletter that you read, um, those are intentional things you are doing to help try and stave off those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:56

Well, yeah. And if we think about like we've we've talked before about making some conscious choices to filter the the news that comes to us, or you know, um the the media that we receive or you know, all of those things. And um, you know, if you if you think about it, if you are feeling really disenfranchised, really down, really, you know, overwhelmed, um one of the things that you can do in addition to like curating what positivity comes in is like some of the quotes that we talked about, remind yourself like we are we are just a when in time. We are a part of something bigger. And the summer triangle is still in the sky, pointing the same direction, regardless of what is happening down here. And I think sometimes orienting yourself to that kind of helps broaden out your perspective so that you don't feel quite as inundated, but you do begin to feel really inundated when that RES system starts to be on overdrive, picking out, you know, suddenly all the cars are red. There are only red cars, and that's all I see. Um, you know, it feels like 50% of the cars are red. And like, what's going on? Umly people like me have this experience. Um, you know, well, I mean, you're seeing it because the brain is filtering that to you. So maybe start asking, like, what am I not seeing? Um, and I think that's where gratitude moments come in for us is like, how do we force ourselves into constantly bringing positive things into our lives so that those things that come in that our brain is trained to threat response, identify, don't become the only things that we're focused upon. Um, another um piece of neuroscience around this whole representation topic is that um we all want evidence that we're not alone. And so seeing somebody else that looks like we do experiencing an outcome that we want that feels similar to us, or seeing ourselves and other people and getting to understand ourselves better through that is the psychology known as social proof. And social proof is basically this psychological phenomenon that where people look to the actions and behaviors and opinions of others to determine the correct way to act in given situations. And it's rooted in this innate desire to belong. Um, you know, we're social creatures. We've talked about that, right? So it acts like this mental shortcut to make decisions, um, especially when we're unsure of things or we lack information. And you just do it without even thinking about it. So why do we label as a human race? Why do we have so many labels? We're just like, we love labeling things, why do we love categorizing and organizing things? It's this easy way to make these decisions about am I gonna be alone in this or am I gonna be together in this? And then when you find, oh, this sticks out. Um, I don't want to be the nail that sticks up. I'm gonna get hammered down.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:03

So, like, how do I suppress this so that I can fit in? Because I I don't want to be all alone. And it's those people that are just willing to go live life in this unashamed way that I am just so envious of the confidence and courage which which they they choose. It's a choice. It's not that they don't care. Um, you know, because they've I I feel like they've outmastered this sort of social proof phenomenon. Um, but in part just being aware of it, I think, is gives us a little more power in choosing it versus just going along with it. Yeah. I don't know. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:43

I don't know. I think that's like why this is the perfect topic for Pride Month, if I'm being honest. Because it's not just about like celebrating the identity of who we are or the the things that make us who we are, it's that celebration of visibility as well. We're seeing others who are who are saying it. So when people ask the question, why do we need Pride Month? This is why. Because there are pockets of the commun of the world that their social proof is telling them, you're gonna be ostracized. You are going in some laws, you will you will be put in jail. Like we need this visibility for the opportunity for people to see there is hope, there is something beyond um the world that you may be existing in in this moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:30

Well, also safety and numbers. I mean, once you reach a certain number that you become, you know, you become the group, right? Um, then it's not that there isn't resistance there. It's just that there's less friction. So if you think about um like the the movement that came earlier around females being accepted in places that were traditionally male, um, in the workplace, in jobs, in all of these things, it like I get to kind of take a little bit for granted now. It's even evolved in my 20 plus years of working, right? Um it's like m more women jumped into it and um people were just forced to start thinking differently and to embrace it, right? Um, and so I do think that there is a part of I'm not saying that this is the accountability only on the minority group or the underrepresented group or, you know, any of those things, but what I am saying is that you're not just throwing yourself in the mix in vain. There's a point at which like social proof works in your favor because there's enough representation there that all of a sudden it's not the nail sticking up any longer, right? You're you look just like all the other nails in the line. And um, you know, this is something actually that that kind of bothered me a little bit about the movement for pride over the last couple of years, um, from a corporate standpoint. There there was like this calling out of um brands for just being performative, which is the buzzword that everybody loves these days. And I kind of like take issue with this word, but um being performative when it came to pride, um, just to be able to make money. And for me, I think like while motivation is important, I care less about the motivation for why corporate brands are doing this and more about the fact that they are using their big established platform to create representation. Because what I see is when these brands don't have their pride line, there are less people carrying these things around. Um, and why do I carry my pride back during Pride Month? Why do I wear my pin? Why do I wear my watch all year? Why do I try and like show up and represent? Because I think it's so important that people can see you're not alone. Like you're safe with me. I accept you. I want you to live out loud, and I'm gonna do my part to like carry your voice forward too.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:23

So that's great. And I think that's one of the I I think the part where um the performative stuff, and I think we're seeing more of it now, is this curiosity around um the motivating factors, because let's also remember that all of these organizations are and I'll just speak here for the United States. These organ a lot of large organizations who once upon a time put out, you know, did their pride logos, put out pride things, aren't you? And they've stopped. Correct. Because of because of whatever current political um pressures they may be receiving, they also understand that they employ a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:08

And if there are negative repercussions to come, how many of those people are going to be impacted? And then what's that ripple effect? So they employ a person, but that person has a family.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:20

Are they the only person with a job in that family? What is what is their mortgage? What is keeping electricity? Like all of those things come into place, and I think we've are very quick to get frustrated or angry or or disappointed. But when you take that step back and look at the bigger picture, what else could be true?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:40

That's a that's a fair question. I mean, I do think I do still think the minute you give up ground, you lose. Uh, you know, you you you retreat and then you have to climb back up the hill again. And boy, up the hill is hard. Um so, you know, there is a little bit of frustration there that I feel in like you let yourself be bullied into stepping back, but um, you gave up ground. Like, how are we gonna win? But I guess, you know, great generals in battle know that it's important sometimes to retreat in order to regroup.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:17

Um look at you coming with all these unique and and in like different analogies.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:24

Look at me. Look at me.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:26

As a peacekeeper, she's bringing generals into this.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:30

You know, I don't know much about history. Um, I can't tell you what side the generals from history were on, and it would be irresponsible of me to start naming them because I couldn't tell you what they stand for. But I do know that they exist um because I I'm surrounded by people who love history.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:54

Very true.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:55

So um, you know, that's what I've got. That's that's what I've got for today. I don't know. What do you think? What else do you have? Anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:03

This was a very um heavy-ish. I don't know. Like it's it is a conversation that I think is so important to have, and I think it it also shows like the the layers and the complexity and how all of this stuff, um, you said it earlier, like the intersectionality of it all, and it's hard, and it's um, you know, living with purpose, living with intention, um, is just that, and it's not always easy, it's not always smooth sailing, and it's not um always the most um welcomed experience. Well, Jen, thank you so much for reading the book.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:41

Um my gosh, it was a fantastic book. Thank you for recommending it. I'm just it was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:48

Thank you for engaging in this conversation and and bringing multi-faceted perspectives to it. Um, I I can always depend on you for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:02

You never know where the conversation's gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:06

It's true. It's very true. Well, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:09

Thank you. Thank you for for joining in to this. And um, you know, last year during Pride Month, we we talked about pride, and I felt super uncomfortable um, you know, having a microphone and talking about pride because I thought, uh like, what if I say the wrong thing? And I don't even know what letter acronyms to use because there's so many versions, and I don't want people to think, like, why it why does she have a voice in this? She doesn't belong, she's not a part of the community. She should sit and listen and not um like not speak up. And um, you know, I think the those were all very real thoughts in my head. And um, and so it's been a long journey of realizing like I am a part of the community, and um, it is not just a privilege, though it is a privilege, it is um a responsibility to be able to be a part of the conversation. And so I just want to say I have so much gratitude for you in helping me to learn that and to be able to lean into that in a safe space. And I'm excited to celebrate not just in Pride Month all year, but particularly in Pride Month because representation does matter. Um, and that's why we have Pride, because we still need to remind everyone of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:30

Yep. It's so true. Um, so I really want to encourage everyone as as we bring this to a close, um, as you go through this next week, you know, what what part of yourself have you been trying to fix? Air quotes here again, fix that might actually um you just need to recognize maybe that's really what it's about is just recognizing it versus trying to fix it.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:56

Yeah. And who might need to see you? Be full, fully yourself. Um, you know, who who might need to hear you step up and uh see you as somebody who's representing. Um, we would love for you to share with us. We'd love for you to share what you think. Uh we we share our perspectives here, but we're also open.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:16

We shared a lot of perspectives to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:17

We shared a lot of perspectives. We don't always agree with each other, um, but we learn from listening to each other and um and appreciate the varied perspectives. So we'd love to hear uh from you. Depending on what platform you're listening to, you can leave a comment or um reach us via email at connect at Chris and GenITM.com, or you can text us at 940-278-8129.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:40

And like we talked about, we are building a community here and we would love for you to be part of that. So you can follow us on our social media platforms. We're on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. You can find us as Chris and GenITM. Um, you know, like, follow, subscribe, leave a comment, share, whatever, whatever it may be, uh, whatever it may mean to be part of a community for you. Maybe you're just in a time where you need to listen, learn, and and just, you know, kind of steep in it. That's fine. But uh, if you want to challenge the thinking, we're open to that too.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:09

Yeah, absolutely. Um, we just ask for respectfulness and positivity. Um, but we're always learning. So um we would love for you to join into the conversation. Um, and until next time, be kind to yourself, to one another, and let's make it a great week. Bye everyone, and happy pride.