The Neuroscience of Normal: Breaking the Us vs Them Myth

In this special Pride Month episode of Chris and Jen in the morning, the hosts challenge the concept of normalcy and explore the psychological and sociological frameworks that separate communities into "us and them" groups. By looking at how the human brain processes repetition, the hosts unpack why we mistake familiarity for absolute truth and how rigid societal norms can negatively impact mental health and inclusion. Shifting the conversation from judgment to curiosity, the episode provides actionable insights and journaling prompts to help listeners reclaim their agency, audit their daily inputs, and foster genuine empathy.

Three Pivotal Points

• The Neuroscience of Predictability: The human brain acts as an anticipatory machine prioritized for survival rather than the best outcome. It builds models out of repeated behaviors because certainty requires less energy than processing unknown possibilities, meaning "normal" is structurally hardwired as a subconscious safety mechanism.
• The Evolution of "Othering" and Judgment: While social norms historically aided group survival and cooperation, they devolve when they morph into rigid rules used to judge human worth. Fearing differences is a learned behavior; scanning for differences triggers threat detection pathways, whereas looking for commonalities actively stimulates the brain's empathy pathways.
• Overcoming Autopilot Through Curiosity: Autopilot is a practical feature for preserving cognitive energy, but breaking out of harmful biases requires conscious awareness. By identifying linguistic triggers like "of course," "always," or "never," individuals can pause their fast-brain labeling, ask deeper questions, and consciously broaden their inputs to accept multiple versions of normal.

Website - www.chrisandjenitm.com

Email - connect@chrisandjenitm.com   

Voicemail and Text available at 940-278-8129

Merch - https://chris-and-jen-itm.printify.me/

Store - https://www.fabulousfavoritefinds.com/

Chapters

00:00 Gratitude and Personal Reflections

15:43 Understanding Normal Through Neuroscience

25:59 The Role of Community Norms

34:03 Overcoming Othering and Judgment

40:40 Navigating Autopilot and Judgment

45:45 Understanding Perspectives and Normalcy

51:35 The Role of Community and Inputs

59:48 Challenging Assumptions and Beliefs

01:05:49 The Nature of Facts and Perspectives

01:13:42 Pride Month and Human Dignity

01:20:49 Journaling for Self-Discovery and Growth

01:27:20 Outro

 resources

The Neuroscience of Human Relationships by Louis Cozolino - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VJX4V7X

The Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Dobelli - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N6F7Q7K

Chris and Jen's Community Platform - https://chrisandjenitm.com

Follow Chris on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ChrisAndJen

Follow Jen on LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/jen

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We live our lives on a hidden track, letting our brains run on autopilot to keep us feeling safe, comfortable, and secure. We constantly chase a standard called normal, treating it like an absolute truth. But who actually decides what normal is and why are we so deeply attached to it? What if our obsession with normalcy isn't protecting us, but it is instead creating rigid divides of us versus them and fueling a fear of the unfamiliar?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

It's not that norms exist or that norms are a thing or norms are bad. It's that we have these like rigid rules that norms sort of morph into that we start to use to inform like value or worth. It's like going from something being a norm to allowing norms to place judgment. And I think that's the line where we start to see norms like devolve communities and um devolve like our mental health versus being supportive.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Today, Chris and Jen dive deep into the neuroscience behind our craving for predictability, how communities have weaponized norms, and how stepping into curiosity can completely reframe your world. Let's get into it. Welcome to Chris and Jen in the morning, where self-care meets real life.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

And I'm Jen.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

And we are back for another um episode in Pride Month.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yes, so excited to be representing now and always, all year. That's right. Today we are gonna talk about the myth of normal. We want to talk about why our brains create the us and them and what like what that does and uh applicable far beyond the LGBTQ plus community, but also super applicable to talk about, I think, during Pride Month.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Yeah, for sure. And I think what's super interesting is there's actually a lot of like brain science that goes into this idea of normal. And so it's like it's gonna be a great episode. So stick with us.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

You know, fun fact when I was in high school, I did debate and forensics, and during forensics, I always wanted to do because they were uh one was one semester, the other was another semester. So during forensics semester, I always wanted to do like the creative uh ones, um, like read reading the storybook and like all of that. And my um forensics coach was the same as my debate coach. He was like, no, you have to do oratory, like you're required. So the persuasive speech. So I wrote my oratory speech on the myth of normal normalcy.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Wow, okay. So did that influence this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I think it's just something that I have like held in my belief system like for as long as I can remember. So this feels like a really natural conversation. I'd love to go back and find, I'm sure somewhere there is a written copy of that speech that I wrote that I wrote and performed and won awards for. Um, but you know, I was trained to be compelling.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Which brings us to this episode.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

But um, I do remember I opened with some kind of like visual uh word visual that I created. I know it doesn't feel like me at all, about lemmings um that follow each other off the cliff to their demise. Um, because they just that's just what they do. Um, anyways.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

I mean, that's a great hook. I mean, I want to hear more.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

It is a great hook, right? So um, so I've been talking about this myth of normal since I was in high school, which was just a couple of years ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Practically yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Practically yesterday. And thank goodness a long time ago. Um, and it's still something that that like sits super close to my belief belief system. So I'm really excited to talk about this today.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

But also like for you to do that in high school, like I think that's potentially where a lot of people run into like I think start feeling and seeing this topic probably a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I feel like middle school is definitely entrenched in it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

unknown 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

So like for you to like have that, you know, be able to step back and kind of look at all of that.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

That's well, thirteen, thirteen-year-old Jen, she was trying to set the world on fire.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Tell you what Because you you did move ahead in school a little faster than others, correct?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Well, I skipped a year um in high school. I graduated in three years, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Okay. Wow, good for you.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Impatient at best. Impatient at best.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I think I do know that about you.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

It's a key strength of mine. And something people should know about me so they are not unpleasantly surprised.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

You know what? To know you is to know that about you and also your struggle with time and space.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I did text you this morning and say, look, guys, I didn't lose track of time. I'm just running late because I made poor choices. I would like the distinction. I'm not sure if I was looking for like a gold star for not getting confused by time this morning, as that was progress, or if I was just trying to be like honest instead of using the excuse of I'm not sure what time is.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Well, and I don't think either of us really acknowledge that text message. At least I didn't. And so you just decided to wear your gold. You you are your gold star today.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Oh, yeah, it's pink. It's like a blush pink.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

I think it's called champagne, but to me it looks pink.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Does it look gold to you?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Um, it looks more champagne y, I would say, and to me. If you are just listening to us, Jen has on this beautiful glittery top.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Sequin. It's a lot of sequins. Um, yeah, so I think I have a black version of this, not a shock, but also sequin. I did wear it, I think, two times. Once to work and once on a date with Ace. If I I feel very self-conscious right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

That exact one?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Not this one, the black one.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

The the black one you have in in your closet is shirt, but it's in black. And it's the one that you wore on a date with Ace?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Yeah. Why?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

How long ago was that?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Um I don't know. We went to have tea together. He took me to like a high tea, like a tea with the the little date. They brought out the little They brought out the little We went to tea time. We did, it was fun. It was like around the holidays. It was a holiday tea. It was at Thompson's bookstore in uh Fort Worth. And it was after the blast happened.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

There was like Oh, hold on. I thought you meant like a date as in when you two first met back then.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

No. No, honey, I can't wear those clothes anymore. I think not even on one of my arms. I can't wear those clothes anymore. Nope.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Okay. No. It's all the picture is now coming into it.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

You don't go on dates with your husband. You still are supposed to date after you get married.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Oh. Yes, we go out together. I just I don't know if we call them dates.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

You're supposed to date your spouse. That's like the first rule of staying married forever. 21 years. It's almost 22. How do you think we made it?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

All right. I'll tell Frank we're supposed to be dating each other.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

We are supposed to be dating. In fact, you guys send us pictures of you out on these cute little dates together where you get all dressed up and you go to these fancy restaurants and have these fancy dinners. And I'm like, look at them, they're dating.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Meanwhile, we're like, we're we're going for a friend's birthday.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

No, it's just the two of you. It's like usually your anniversary or something. Whereas I'm like, can we just hit up the drive-thru and get barbecue? Go home and watch a TV show together.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

All right. So in another 17 years, that's what Frank and I have to look forward to.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Um, yeah, high school was just a couple years ago for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yep. Yep. Child pride. Yeah. Okay. Well, if you are enjoying this part of the conversation, um, you definitely want to be following us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. We uh post a lot of our like fun, a little um more uh silly content there. Um, but we're also building a community. The purpose we have many platforms is for the opportunity for us to connect with others who are um on the same journey of life, trying to find the best out of it, find the laughs, um, looking for moments of inspiration. So come be part of that community. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yes, you can find go to Chris and Jenitm.com and there are links to all of our socials there. That's how you can find us. And if you want to see how loud the top is that I'm wearing, check out the socials. You'll see it there.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Check there. Check there. So um let's start our episode as we always do with our gratitude moments.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yes. I'll start. Um, so this week, my dear amazing husband uh got and put up for me a um like a squirrel resistant bird feeder. And he's hung it in a spot on the pergola that I can see from my seat on the couch. So um we call it Jen's diner. I've filled it with the bird seed that my friend Kelly gave me. And um the it took him a couple days, but the birds have figured out that this is the diner. So we have a frequent flyer house sparrow that loves to come by.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

We have a cowbird, um which we have found out recently is like an invasive species.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yes, but you know, like the somebody raises like it doesn't just ruin the nest because otherwise there wouldn't be any more cowbirds. They're like parasitic. So they don't build their own nests, they just lay their eggs in other birds' nests. And then if the other birds throw the egg out, they get mad and go destroy the nest.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

But you know bird politics.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Bird politics. So um it's a cute little cowbird. I can see why they call it a cowbird. I don't know if this is why, but its eyes make you think of a cow. Um, so it does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

I'm gonna have to zoom in on that photo you said.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Um, we have a pear cardinal, uh a male and a female cardinal that like to come eat there, and the blue jay, who is always elusive and never lets me take his photo ever. Um, no bird, no blue jay ever. They're always like just so elusive. He has been in the backyard. I haven't seen him at the feeder yet, but I have seen him on the trees in the backyard. Um there's probably a few others, but they just like to come and, you know, like munch while I watch and take photos through the window that don't look so good. Oh, of course there's the morning doves, but you know, those that little couple, they like to hang out all the time.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Um I just so no squirrels have attempted yet?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

I mean, I know it's anti-squirrel, but you know, we have the cutest squirrels in our backyard and they love to climb up on the tree in the backyard and just like lay out flat on the branch when it's really hot and just like kind of like chill there, like they're just lounging, like you would see somebody lounging in a pool on a pool lounger. That's like the squirrel on the branch. Um, and they love to like like play around on the pergola and chase each other through all the trees. And oh my gosh. Um, the they were like all chittering um at the beginning of the week. And uh Lola ran outside to go see what was up, and she had chased one into a bush, and that like other two were trying to like rescue the one in the bush that Lola had pinned there, like not pinned physically, just you know, because she was like I see it. She got it scared into the corner, yeah. Um, and so I made Lola and Chloe come back inside so that like the squirrels could all reunite with each other and and um go along their lovely day. But no, it's like a it's a squirrel resistant one. So like as soon as there's any kind of like real weight on it, it like closes the holes up. But the birds are not enough weight to pull it down and close it. So it's very smart. But we call it Jen's Diner. Um, and all the birds come and partake. And that's just been really fun and lovely and exciting. And the first couple of days, I just kept saying, No birds, no birds, there's no birds at it. And now the birds they're there all the time. So I'm so grateful for my husband and his like just that he knows how much the birds bring me joy and his thoughtfulness to buy me a bird feeder that the squirrels wouldn't go uh steal from. And um, and just for like those moments of getting to see the cute little birds.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, they're your sparks of joy.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

They are.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

So I'm so glad that you're getting that. And like you get to do it from the place that you're comfortable. So even better. Yep. Um, my gratitude moment this week is um for my friends. I feel like they have many of them have shown up in many ways to support me over the last couple of weeks. And whether that's because I need help with something or I'm um they think of me to go to an event with them, like they have just been reaching out, and um, I don't know, like it just feels great to have a community that cares for you, checks in on you. You can text them and they show up for you. Like it's just the past couple of weeks have been really, really great to have that, and I'm super appreciative of all of them. And like it's folks that you know uh I've known for many years, and some of them I haven't seen in quite a while, but you know, we still stay in contact and they still show up when when I text and need that help. So it's uh it's great. And then having messaged you and Ace and like, hey, why don't you all come out to New York City? And then next thing I know, y'all are coming.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Books.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Done.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

So excited. I'm so excited to see you for the 4th of July and can't wait for all the photos that will come out of that. I know there will be lots of good fun adventure.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Oh, there always is when we are together.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yes, there is. Also, like Citrico, watch out. I'm on my way.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

We were there yesterday, so I gave them a warning.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Give him a warning.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Give him a heads up. Make sure that you're not gonna be able to get a warning, a heads up, yeah. Make sure you're ready. Jen's coming.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I mean warning. Heads up, whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Whatever it needs to be. Just make sure you have the cold beverage ready for me when I show up.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

That's right. Um, so uh let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Yeah, let's talk about normal.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Let's talk about normal. Like who decided what's normal and why are we so attached to it? That's that's like this this nagging question that I feel like um continues to surface for me. Um like normal is often just what is familiar or expected or common or reinforced by the community that we're in. And um, you know, what's really interesting when you stop and think about it is normal is not only like different over time. Like if I was to wear fashion from a hundred years ago, what was normal then would be totally weird now. Um, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

And um also like hot, probably.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

That's exactly what I was just thinking about. Like you would be so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Like that would not think goodness.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

There's a lot of layers.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Thank goodness. I don't know that I would have made it. In fact, probably people like me uh back then were just seen as odd because they couldn't manage all of the the like oversensory situation of it all. Um or like I I feel like I don't know what they were wearing a hundred years ago, but I feel like a hundred years ago it was like tight corsets and big hoop skirts, maybe. I don't know. That would be a lot.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Yeah, it was it just sounds hot.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

It sounds hot. Um, and I guess also you have to think about like a hundred years ago what people were wearing, like where would be very different, right? That's a good point. I probably think about like European culture, American, European, but think about like what they were wearing through different Asian communities or African communities. Like normal is different depending on where you are in both space and time.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

So um well, I think that's a really interesting part around normal, is like normal is where you exist, it's your world, it's the things that are influencing you, and sometimes it's hard to see beyond your world.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

So I'm gonna give you the biggest secret up front. Spoiler alert. This is the biggest secret. If you don't like the normal that you're in because you feel abnormal, maybe you just need to be surrounding yourself with a different normal, like a different community. Because if this normal doesn't fit and you have that desire to fit, it might just be that you're in the wrong sorted bin of you know, Lycos or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah. All right. Well, that was a great episode. I really appreciate the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, there it is. That was it. No, let's let's like dive in because it's like this is something that happens within our our brains. This is it's just neuroscience, right? Like our brains frequently make the mistake for things, um like thinking what is common or around me or what I see is like right. And if I don't fit into that, then I'm not right. And so then we're subconsciously trying to either fit in or having all this like negative talk about ourselves that we have to overcome. And so if that feels like it relates to you or the the world around you, like that's what we're here to talk about today.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah, and I I think a lot of people probably think of this in like big um buckets, if you will. Um, but I I guess I would also challenge people in in some of the smaller things in life as well. So, like uh, you know, do you eat dinner at five o'clock?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Is that normal?

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Is that normal?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah. What if I say I eat dinner at three o'clock? Then I'd be weird.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah. I would I I would say that's odd. Right? Not judging, just an observation.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Um, is it normal to live with your parents as an adult? Maybe becoming more normal these days.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Is it normal to have tattoos? It used to like not be normal in many societies, and it's a little more normal now. Um, is it normal to never want children?

SPEAKER_02 20:00

That's I feel like that is a hot topic today.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah, but I think it's becoming more common, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Um is it normal to marry your high school sweetheart? Oh love. Love, love. Is it normal to text instead of call? Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Um as we've talked about, if you leave a voicemail, it's uh probably a 25% chance it's it'll be hurt.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Oh, I feel like that was generous.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

But it's so true. Like though, like these are smaller things, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

But I mean they change over time.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Correct. It changes over time, and I think the the worlds that you are operating in like influence some of this stuff, and it influences how you move through the world and and the the normal things that you begin to see in your day-to-day life.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yeah. Normal changes depending on where you are, when you are, who you're with, and yet we also treat it like it's some absolute truth.

unknown 21:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Um, as opposed to something that's flexible, it's fungible, it's is fungible a word. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

I feel like you just made that up.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Um, but let's talk about the neuroscience of it. Like, why does our brain even like create normal? Why do we invent this concept of normal?

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Um Well, we've talked, we've kind of talked about it before, like our where our brain looks for patterns, right? Like it looks for um things that are um we can predict uh and prediction makes us feel safe. It makes us feel like we can expect what's gonna come next. And so when we think about our brain, um, its primary job actually isn't thinking, it's survival, which we've talked about before as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, yeah. It's con the brain's constantly asking, like, what am I? Supposed to expect next? It's like this anticipatory machine because that's how keeps us safe by anticipating what comes next. And um, you know, we've talked a lot about like from an economics standpoint, um, like uncertainty is, you know, the thing that that makes the economy really like kind of do weird stuff. Um, well, it's the same with our brains. Like uncertainty is something that just kind of makes us like stutter or misfire because our brain needs certainty in order to keep us safe. Yeah. So when something happens repeatedly, the brain builds a model around it. And then this repeated becomes familiar and familiar gets predictable, and predictable is safe, and safe is normal. And so the brain loves this normal concept because normal requires less like energy um than, you know, like uncertainty. Uncertainty or like you have to think about all of the potential possibilities, and it requires a lot of like out of the box thinking and you know, um certainty is is like you don't you know what to expect. So even if you don't like it, you can respond. You know how to you know how to respond to it.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Exactly. And like these are the things, right, that um our brains do naturally and it just like goes um on autopilot. Um and it's the reason why we can go through our lives and and see so many things and react to so many things. It's it re whenever our brain creates those models, it's less attention that we're having to pay to things. Um, and whether that's right, wrong, or indifferent, our brain just sees that pattern and it's in this more comfortable state.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yes. It is not prioritizing the best outcome, it is prioritizing the most predictable, most familiar outcome. So it will keep you at homeostasis. Um, and so why do community? So that's why we, our brains are just on autopilot subconsciously creating norms, but what about communities in general? So going from like psychology to sociology. Um, humans, we've talked about, we're like very um like social creatures, right? We have this need for social acceptance, social belonging. It's a part of what makes us human. Right. Um and belonging to groups actually increased the chance of survival um uh historically. So when you were isolated, you were less likely to survive. But when you were part of a group, um, you it was like a survival instinct to become socially accepted. And so that means that communities naturally create norms around appearance, behavior, language, traditions, values, because norms help groups function together as one, as opposed to like, you know, having this constant like um like mix of things that don't fit. And so without norms, you like it's hard to create cooperation. There's like this constant distrust that comes in because you're not seeing something from the same perspective or understanding. So you're constantly on this, like, wait, why is that different? Why is that not what's expected? Um, because predictability is decreased, right? So norms are actually not inherently bad. Norms, um, while high school gen would say normal is the enemy, like norms actually have helped us survive over time. Um, and they often help communities thrive. Um, like if we didn't have like rules and laws that helped create what normal was, that would just be chaos all of the time. And then we'd be living in like amygdala amygdala hijack just to get our basic needs met. That would be like exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

It would be. And I think in today's society, it's a little it's much more nuanced than what it was like hundreds of years ago, right? Because less technology, less advancements, like it the norms were things that did help keep you alive. You you showed up in certain ways, you um drank certain things, you ate certain things because like you knew that it was safe. It was things that we um it protected us. It was a a safety mechanism. But as it seems like as time has progressed, and I'm not saying that this didn't happen back, you know, hundreds of years ago, but like it's it's now created um in-groups and out groups, and it starts to kind of chip away at um people and who's allowed in, and oh, what they're doing is weird. And it's like, well, well, why is it weird? Is it just not normal to us?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

And I think that's where the issue is. It's not that norms exist or that norms are a thing or norms are bad. It's that we have these like rigid rules that norms sort of morph into that we start to inform, use to inform like value or worth. Um, and so it's like going from something being a norm to allowing norms to place judgment. And I think that's the line where we start to see norms like devolve communities and um devolve like our mental health versus being supportive. Um and so that like gets into like a little a little bit more neuroscience here around how we other things within our brain, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:49

And I think this is like whenever we um whenever you think about the people that you are hanging out with, there there are commonalities amongst all of you, right? Like there is a reason for you all to have connection, and there is a reason for you to have a level of safety.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Um, and a lot of times our brain starts to categorize those things as being safe and automatically. It's just something that we do, we see familiarity, we feel connection. Um, but then whenever we start to then bump that up against something that's maybe not the same as our uh as our like homeostasis, we then get into this point of like friction.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Um, and and that's where you start to see those divides start to happen. And again, whether it's like intentional or not, our brains are like firing, you know, thousands of times a day, categorizing things automatically.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Um, and this is what I think is so interesting. Because I know um, you know, a couple of months ago, I think I sent you some of my thoughts that I was journaling out, of course, around um like categorization and organization and how we as humans just feel the need to label everything. Like, why is it that we feel the need to label everything and put things into categories? And so as I was like doing a little bit of research for this conversation, um, what stood out to me was well, why do we do that? It's because category making is really efficient. Like once you can lump something into a category so that you can anticipate, um, because the brain is wired for anticipating, um, then all of a sudden, like that becomes really uh comfortable because you it requires less, less brain power, less energy um within yourself to figure out like how do I respond to this? So once you put a label on something or put it into a category, then subconsciously your brain doesn't have to do all this work to figure out what's gonna happen, how do I respond to it? The problem is that we just like subconsciously label things and put them in boxes, and then those things don't always fit in that box or they don't always stay in those boxes. And so then we start creating judgments. Like it it all starts in this place, I think, of like innocence or harmlessness, and then those perceptions become these judgments that become these like strongly held beliefs that then, you know, other people in the community are using for their own um benefit from time to time when you think about politics and you know, those kinds of things, right? It's how people pick categories um uh to label and place judgment and then sway people, whether e whether they have positive intent or negative intent, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Um I think of this a lot like around like what our brains do with change as well. Um, and I only share this as like a as another way to kind of think about it, like again, change is scary, change is hard. Um, and it's because you're breaking a cycle, you are breaking a routine that you are you used to. Um and so uh when it comes to this idea of our brain like categorizing things, um uh to me, whenever we are moving through change, moments of change, it's it's disrupting that. And so our brain starts to like freak out a little bit and like, oh, and so I like I frequently find myself, okay, am I finding this difficult because it's something new and different and it's not what I'm used to? Or is it because it's really hard and like it's someone has overly complicated a process?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Like absolutely well, and I think the thing is like this is where stereotypes, exclusions, and prejudice start to come in, is you know, we've we've happened upon this sort of naturally, um, and then we take it from you know the thing that's serving us to this placing this judgment on it, it just kind of morphs into that. And our brains aren't really wired to notice differences, uh, or they are, there was our brains are wired to notice differences, they're not wired to like fear differences. Right. And um, that that part, like the fearing what is different, that's a learned behavior um that happens over time. And so when we think about like the LGBTQ plus community, um, that's that's a part of where this like fear has come from, or this like desire to other and then keep keep the community in a box and all of this like legislation attacking the rights of trans individuals. It's like this othering that is like being triggered by this place of fear and um, or you know, whoever wherever that starts, that's why a lot of people respond to it. Um, and if you think about the language that's used, even in a lot of these bills, it's about like, oh, the threat that they impose. And of course, like if you think about it logically, like I am I am threatened by a number of things and never has it been a trans person.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Right. But I think that's a good ex like that's a good example as we're in Pride Month. But think about this like back in the civil rights era when women's rights, like this stuff has existed. It's just a matter of like how time has changed.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Oh yeah. It's just which group are we gonna other? It's like the same cycle occurs over and over, just like the seasons in the year happen over and over and over again. They just, you know, each one looks a little different, but they still come back around again. Exactly. Um, it's it's the same thing. And um, I think this is I think what to me is is has been really interesting in reading through a lot of this is it's it's like the way that our brains get us to these places. And then like, how do we overcome this? How do we get out of this cycle of othering people for a number of reasons and then placing judgment on them versus like the things that our brains are naturally doing to help create safety, right? Um, and I think that's where curiosity enters the picture. Like, how do you get yourself off of this autopilot? It's through curiosity. So I guess if we think about it like major expansions in human inclusion that have happened over time, um, like left-handed people.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Um, like you use there was a time when if you were left-handed, like you were taught that was wrong and you had to learn how to use your right hand. There was like this.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

There's a whole movement, like especially in schools, for teachers to get students to use their right hand as the dominant hand.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah, and that's like crazy if you think about it today. Um, interracial marriage used to be something that was like so taboo and you know, just dangerous. Um, and you know, now, like at least in our community where we are, like this that's something that like is just so has become so normalized, like thankfully, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:27

So uh normalized, yes, but I still think people in those relationships still encounter some. Yeah, some and that goes to like, is it stereotypes? Is it is it uh um ignorance? Like what is it that is driving those things?

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yeah. Women in leadership. Um, like there has been so much progress that has been made, even in, you know, the couple of decades that I have been in the workforce. And and so not to say that it's not still something that we need to be like mindful of, because it does take a long time to um, you know, influence the the lasting impacts of um being othered, if you will. But that used to be something that was like so taboo. Like, why would you have a woman leading a group? I mean, you know, and then of course, naturally, as a as a woman leader, I would say, um, why wouldn't you?

unknown 36:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

But we take that for granted today. And so I think um for me, these stories, they they present like hope for me, because when you're in the middle of it, it feels really um like overwhelming. And it can be like, I don't understand, you know, why there has to be all of this legislation attacking these groups of people, attacking their human rights, attacking, you know, their ability just to exist. And like this, this uh place we live in just feels so exclusive. And like all of those things are true, but also it can change over time, even though it feels really big in the moment. And I think those are the moments where I have to remind myself like there is hope because it does, it can shift. And so, how do we do that? How do we get off autopilot of like othering and um and you know, that judgment that comes after the categorization?

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah, and I think you you said it uh a little bit earlier. It's this idea of like curiosity, like how how do we start to step out of this place of you know, judgment and and autopilot uh like into making a conscious decision in how we're operating and seeing the world. Um, and I think that one of the really big things for me, and and we've talked about this before, is is like those opportunities to really spend some time reflecting on on the world around us and and the part that we play in it. Um, we've talked before about how our prefrontal cortex allows us to spend a little bit more time in that reflection phase and it it allows us to start building that muscle to say, okay, this is how I I usually act or show up in these situations. How now that I've noticed this pattern, how can I start to change it? And so we have to figure out like how we how we activate that part of our brain more so that way we can start showing up a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah, you know, it's so funny because I feel like in so many of the topics that we talk about, the first step is always just awareness, like like getting ourselves off of that, like riding down the lazy river on autopilot and letting it take us down where we want and living intentionally.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Um, and and so step one is just like wake ourselves up, become aware, and then um, and then reframe. Um, so the brain is like such a beautiful, fascinating organ. And there are all of these like competing, conflicting parts of it that are used for different things. And so where we talk a lot about like the amygdala and the parts, the other parts of our brain that are like that response portion of the brain that does the kind of instant reaction to keep us safe. And then there are the other parts that work almost oppositely, like the prefrontal cortex that allows you to like step back and think more reflectively and pull in additional inputs and like do those critical thinking skills to challenge yourself. And so um, I think that's that's just it is we have to say become aware and then start reframing and challenging ourselves and getting really curious about wait a second, I heard that thought pass through my head and that felt like judgment. I don't know. Like, is that is that serving or is that not serving? Why do I think that? Um, and I think that's where empathy comes in. It's where like getting to like pushing yourself to listen to things that you don't agree with and then just go down the path of asking questions, it doesn't mean you have to change your mind.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Um, it's just about getting more inputs, gathering more data, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Well, and just like how we talk about like our brain automatically does these categories. It takes in information, puts them in boxes, things like that. It does that automatically. So if we start to train our brain a little bit more, which our brains are remarkably adaptable, you can tell by our history that we're able to adapt.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Um, but we have to be again that it's that awareness and questioning those actions or those thoughts that are as they are being processed. So that way we can then choose to kind of change that categorization and and be aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Well, and you know, I think what's so interesting is um, like we talk about self-kindness, being kind to oneself. Um, so it's not about saying, oh, this autopilot thing that my brain does is like a problem. And oh, I wish I didn't think like this. And, you know, why do I do this? And how do I change this about myself? It's not a flaw. Autopilot is actually a feature. Um, because if you had to consciously analyze every decision that you were gonna make all day long before you even ate breakfast, you would be like ready to get back in bed. You'd be overwhelmed. Um, and so so autopilot is really helping us. Like when you think about like how you get to work, if you had to like place conscious awareness on every single decision about how you, you know, move the car into drive and put your blinker on and do all those things, you would be exhausted. It just requires so much energy to actively think. And so the fact that these norms or routines come into play is how you preserve energy to continue like growing and adapting and like learning the new and experiencing adventure. And it's what like takes care of all of those things that have to happen so we can chase happiness, right? And um, and so it helps you navigate social situations, it helps you recognize faces, it helps you make thousands of those small little decisions, like breathing in and out. Um, you know, I prefer that that be an autopilot thing because when I start to think about breathing, then like I get a little anxious. Like, what if I stop? Um, so the goal isn't how do I stop judging? It's how do I notice when my first reaction is not the whole story? Yeah. Um, and like, I mean, are we ever working with the whole story? Probably not, to be honest, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Well, I think like that's the those are the questions we have to be asking ourselves. Like, and and uh, you know, you and I have had this conversation many a times around like, wow, this self-development and self-growth, it takes a lot. Like it is, it, it is a lot, and for the exact reason that you just said, it's like you're you you have to be open to noticing a pattern from that. You have to understand why that that is your pattern, and then whatever actions are being taken, why are those the actions that I'm taking or not taking? Like it is a lot to to sit and and and try to evolve.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, but if we do start to notice our of courses, um, anytime we say, well, of course, um, if we start to make ourselves pause, like make whatever your phrase is, if it's of course, well, of of course people want children, of course everyone celebrates the holiday this way, um, of course everyone would naturally feel great that I said Merry Christmas to them. Um, of course everyone wants to get married. Why wouldn't you know my children want to get married? Of course, men do this, of course women do this. Of course, families are this way. Um, when you start to like hone in on those words, just use them as triggers, then you can create this pause, this natural pause within yourself that is like a signal to go, wait a second, am I just assuming? Or is this a place where I can get curious instead? Um like, is this the fast, the fast brain automatically saying this is the label? Or is this the the slowed down brain going, oh wait, maybe I should step take a step back? Because my of course is is only from my perspective.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yeah. So let let us take a step back because you just said a fast brain and a slow brain. So you're saying I have multiple brains.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

You have one brain, you just have one brain. I mean, maybe somebody's got two brains, but one brain. Um, but it's like those different pieces inside your brain, right? The the um the parts of your brain that are the reaction parts of your brain that are wired to move super fast and like categorize things on autopilot, like we've been talking about, versus the parts of your brain, like the prefrontal cortex that allow you to step back and think more um diligently, more intentionally about like that prefrontal cortex, the way that it works, it actually helps you pull in multiple perspectives to analyze something and challenge yourself and challenge the way something is thinking. And so um, like some people just don't decide to switch into that part of the brain. Um and or some, I shouldn't say some people, I should say we all do it at different times, right? So um, when you're going on autopilot, kind of letting life carry you down a direction versus when you're starting to be intentional and saying, wait a second, I want to be more thoughtful about this. And then that's when the that part of your brain that allows you to analyze things on a deeper level starts to kick in and adding all these different inputs. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

So it's like in those moments of that's when you start looking into those of courses that you were talking about. And then um, I've also heard it recently, like anytime that you um like always, women always or yes, that's a good one. Um yeah, like when anytime they use this like broad language, yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Never um, you know, any of those like absolutes. Um that's a good time to be thinking, but is that true? Because absolute changes over time, right? Like just imagine if you were to show up in the fashion uh that for your place, um, wherever you are was popular a hundred years ago. Um, would you be considered normal?

SPEAKER_02 46:57

That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Um, like you you wouldn't. People would look at you and think, that's strange. Um, I wonder what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

I think that's saying it really nicely.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

And so um, or they're strange, you know. And so I think just that that like conscious awareness that normal changes over time. So normal is not an absolute. Like, let's just go back to that. Um, and so if you're putting things into categories and thinking normal, abnormal, oh, that stands out, like that's weird. I mean, like, is it weird?

SPEAKER_02 47:31

So um you you've brought up fashion. So there's like somehow in some of my feeds, there's but like been like fashions from the 90s, 2000s that have been like popping up. And there's these um a few uh content creators who I think do this really well. And one of them was like, oh, remember the time whenever we would um wear multiple polos and pop all the collars? And so like it shifts to like a like the creator doing it in the moment, like it in current day, but then they also flash up like a picture of when they were back in that time wearing multiple pop-collared um uh polos. And it's like, oh my gosh, that was a thing. That really was a thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Oh, and remember like when you look back at those pictures and you're like, why did anyone let me wear this? Why? Why did we have fanny packs? And then fanny packs came back. We just called them something else. Yep. Sling bags, I don't know, what do we call them now? But their fanny packs are back, and you just wear them different. Yeah, not around your waist, you wear wear them around your shoulder.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Shoulder body, like a cross body bag type thing, like uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah, uh-huh. Or some people are just rocking it like a fanny pack still, you know? Um it so I mean, like everything new old is new again, right? Um, and so it it's just it's it's fascinating um how we react to that. But you know, why do these things stand out to us if if like something that you know doesn't fit into the current version of normal for wherever you are in your place and time, um, why does that stand out? Remember, the brain hates uncertainty. And so when we when we encounter something that's not familiar to us in the moment, we fill the gaps with all these assumptions. Um, so I have said the phrase, that's weird a number of times, right? Um, as so Jen. Um, but that's my language. But like you do, you kind of feel like, well, that's weird. That stands out, that's different, that's that's non-standard. I admire the confidence of that person.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Um that's non-standard. That's just a nice way of saying that's not normal.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Um, so instead of those thoughts, try and well, that's different than what I'm used to. Um, because it it's just a tiny little shift, but saying that's different than what I'm used to versus that's weird, um, it changes from being like a judgment to an observation. Yeah. And so that opens up your ability to be curious. It kind of like tricks your brain into, okay, we're not done categorizing, we haven't just put this in the weird and moved on, you know, we're like curious, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:12

It's like, well, and I think that's why like words are important. Like I know we've talked about this before, but like words are important because they do have meaning, and then those meanings uh ultimately get inside of us, and that is what starts to create these pathways. And so if we're able to start being more conscious about, you know, the the phrases we use, the words that we're assigning to things, we're more intentional about like our openness and you know, um the things that we are coming or encountering every day, like those observations if if we curiosity lives in those observations, if we're able to like change those little things um to make us more curious.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Well, and I think that's where you have to start auditing your inputs. Like where what what situations are you putting yourself in? Who are you surrounding yourself with? Where are you choosing to be? Because remember, when you feel stuck somewhere, you've just given up your agency. Take your agency back. There are all kinds of obstacles and reasons that we have to stay stuck where we are, but there is also always a way out. And so um, if you weigh your pros and cons and you just feel like I need a group to be able to fit into and I don't fit in here, you don't always have to change yourself. You could just change your surroundings. Um and I think that's where like the beauty in uh the virtual world that we have access to like comes in because you can find your sense of community without having to like pick up your whole life and move yourself, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Um I remember this became a very big um topic of conversation in 2020 after George Floyd's murder. Yes. Um because uh a lot of people in the community did not like they did not feel it was uh on them to have to educate people. And it's not just like the education about why they were upset about it, it's also the things that are informing us, the ways that we are consuming information and cre creating those categories in our brains and informing ourselves and how we're showing up in certain places, like all of this stuff comes together. And so whenever we are constantly like if we're amongst a group of friends who are always looking at the same news articles or the the same socials, um, like yes, you're likely going to have consistency and viewpoint, and that creates connection and and a sense of community, but it also runs the risk of um of othering. Like you start to push out, like, oh, well, if you think differently, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Yeah, what what we repeatedly see becomes what we expect. And so if all of your inputs look the same, same news, same viewpoints, same community, same stories, then you're narrowing your um your viewpoint. And um, if instead you are broadening what's around you, then you're broadening your ability to see like the multiple versions of normal. Yeah. Um and I think that's what inclusivity is really like based in, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Right. I mean, yes. And as someone part of the LGBTQ community, like I noticed myself, like I was not as aware of um things happening in the trans community. And so I tried to, like, I I did an audit of, well, what am I seeing? What am I understanding? What am I not seeing? And in that, like, wow, I needed to really bring more things into my orbit that educated me more and created opportunities for me to meet people and hear their stories and experiences. And I'm not saying like it's on them to educate me, but whenever you are in those spaces and you can hear those conversations, it does expand your understanding of things.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah. I mean, at some point, uh, at some level, we we have to have accountability for educating other people about what our perspective is, because how would they be able to see it from our shoes if we didn't? Now, like after a while, that becomes like it has to be a meeting of both places. You can't just be responsible for shoving your point of view down everybody's throat, right? Um, because that's exhausting, right? You can't be your own advocate. We all need the advocates from other groups and communities to help carry the flag with us. It's why allyship is so important. But um, you know, I do think that it's it there, it is also important for us to find those people within our communities who have that gift of being able to share the message and the perspective, because that's what helps create that level of understanding and empathy. Um, and so this is a part of where, you know, we talk about social media and how sometimes um consuming it in in big amounts can be like not as healthy. But this is where I think like the strength is in it, because we're able to have access to these perspectives that like we didn't used to have access to. So, you know, it really is pushing inclusivity because there's not a small, finite group of people that get to decide who's at the podium anymore. We have to be careful about that and where we get our inputs from. But we do have more options and more choices, and so we can see the world from a broader viewpoint than we used to be able to, which I think is is beautiful. Um, because when our representation changes, our brains start to perceive other things as familiar and normal and possible and human. And that's where, you know, inclusivity shows up. Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Um well, and again, going back to the, you know, the civil rights movements, the women's rights movements, like those were things that were beyond people's understanding. And then like over, you know, decades, um, things slowly shifted.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Well, it's like we talked about last week, you know, representation matters. Um, and it matters for other people to be able to see it so that they can be it. It matters for ourselves to be able to like better understand who we are versus understanding ourselves through the community that like we we were born into, right? Um, so I I think you know, that's just a part of the categorization and normalization uh within the brain. And we actually have agency over that. We can create what is normal for ourselves. Um so I I think you know, one of the other things is getting curious, not just about the things that we hear and see that might feel different, but also about our own discomfort, right? Like we assume that discomfort means something is wrong, but often it just means something is new, different, non-standard, not normal.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

And so um the brain it gets confused and it thinks unfamiliar is danger because I don't know how to respond to it. And um, and then you know, we get stuck in this fight or flight mode, um, which was supposed to serve us uh because that was how we adapted, but now it becomes limiting, right? Um so when you start to feel that discomfort, that's a good signal to go, why is this bothering me? So we talked a little bit about you know the trans community today. Like if that's something that you're uncomfortable with, just start asking yourself, like, why does that bother me? How does that impact me? Yeah, like what does it matter um to me? How is this like a thing that is like putting me in danger? Everybody goes back to the bathroom situation, but like I mean, I could talk for hours about that. Take a look. Um, and if you're thinking, wow, you're getting political, I just have to say this is not politics, it's human rights. Like let's be very clear. Um but you know, start asking yourself, like, why is this bothering me? Is it actually harmful or is it just different? And I don't know how to relate to it. And so because I don't know how to respond or relate or what's gonna happen, I have decided that it is you know dangerous. Um and and also like if you find yourself saying yes to that, that's not bad. You don't need to push against that. That's normal. That's your brain's response. Um, so you just don't have to stay there, you don't have to live there.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Yeah. I do this kind of harkens back to last year whenever we did our um uh pride series, um, because I remember you and I had a conversation around your comfortability about talking about these issues. And um we like unpacked that together. Yeah. I mean, we did not do it on camera, but like I remember we had a conversation around it and and why you felt that way. And um you you were open and vulnerable. And and I don't know, it was such a great conversation because like I wouldn't have known that had you not set told it to me. And then like my perspective on it to you, how I see you, how I experience you, like all of those things come together to to inform. And um I I love this idea about like when we are in an area that we feel uncomfortable, but why? Why are we uncomfortable? And and analyze, you know, what are facts versus opinions? What are what are the actual things um uh that we're understanding in the situation? And and again, are they facts or some has someone told us something?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Yeah. And okay, here's my hot take. This is a hot take. It's a super hot take, fresh, fresh hot take. Facts are really just like the truth from our perspective, from what we can see at the time, what we know at the time. Like we want to believe that facts are like black and white, yes or no, firm, right? Like facts, oh, just the facts, you know, hold the opinions, just the facts. But if you think about it, like think about science over time, our understanding of how the world works, how the universe works, you know, how like all of the things, those are like very facts. There's science, you can't argue with it, right? Except for it changes over time because we learn new things over time. Um right and so a fact is really just as much data as you can gather and be able to see from your perspective at the time. So even if you're stuck in, well, these are the facts, um, I mean, how how big is your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Yeah, I I I totally hear that. I mean, I know I said how you said it was a hot take, and I will say I am feeling feeling a little heat. Um because it that is true. Like our knowledge and understanding of things progress. Um, I think um there has been some recent um because I I of where I work, I I uh hear of things specifically within like the oncology space, and there is definitely some new science coming out, and and like recently it has like changed people's understanding of some of the science behind behind it. So I I totally agree that facts are likely based on our understanding of things. Um, but I think it's also dangerous for people to assume that you're t to try and create your opinion in such a way that it is a fact. Because that that is not accurate, and that is your that's why I just want to like that's your perspective on something versus like there being data, information things.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

But how we perceive the data and the information, I think the difference between fact and opinion is not um whether something is uh in infallibly correct or not. I think it's like how we arrived at the the data point, right? So like an opinion is largely based on uh how I feel about something. Um whereas a fact is here are all of the concrete, what seems to be concrete things I can point to that I have used to arrive at this point of view. But it is still just a point of view, um, right? It's just how what what's the point of view based on?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:08

But see, I would say that's your opinion. Well, like if you're using facts to to come to this place, that place is your opinion. That has been interpret your interpretation of the facts.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

The facts um like have changed over time as our understanding changes of the world around us, like as we gain more knowledge or insight of how things work, right? So the world used to be flat, that was a fact, and now it's like it's definitely a fact that it's not flat, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

It's been updated recently, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

I mean, I'm just saying if they change over time. And so when you start to realize that everything is is, you know, just kind of a facet of perspective, I think it allows you to go, okay, well, I don't have to be so grounded in judgment of whether something is right or wrong. Now, it's a hot take because I was brought up in an environment that it was like right is right and wrong is wrong. And if you water down the facts, then you know, I don't know, you're going to hell. You're watering down, you know, everything that we believe in. Because why are brains like certainty? So when I say to you that facts are really just like data inputs based on how we are able to perceive them at the time, it probably feels really uncomfortable because that is living in a world of full uncertainty, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:38

No, like that's not the part that makes me uncomfortable because I agree with that. Like I agree that our understanding of things and and not and the knowledge and science, it does because as everything evolves and we're able to see, you know, deeper into things or we're able to have a different perspective, like we our episode that we did on like space and all of the things that they have found within space, um it it has changed over time.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

Uh I again I just think like to s I think if you are using if you are only going through the world and you are operating on solely how you feel about things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

No, agree. We're saying the same. We're saying the same thing there. Um, I think that's that's it. Is like the difference between a fact and opinion is not how absolute something is or isn't. It's how we arrived at it. Um, like is it based on data points, based on our perspective at the time, or is it based on how we feel or what we think with no data to back it up? Like that's the differen that's the difference. Um, it's not absolutism. And we tend to think that at least I was brought up to believe that facts are absolutes that never change. Um and that's actually like not true. Um, enter the Brontosaurus was my favorite dinosaur. Until it wasn't. But that was when I didn't know the dinosaurs were real. So I digress. I think, you know, the thing is like our brains, they naturally scan for differences. And that's actually, there's a term for that called salience. And the differences stand out so that, you know, we can spend our energy focusing on them because we don't know how to react to them. And so we need to know how to react because that keeps us safe. And it's all of this like science behind how we were built and the art of survival. And that challenge is that what stands out isn't necessarily what matters most. So we focus on these things that stand out. Oh, this is how we're different, but it's not what matters most. This is where, you know, last week we talked about the book atmosphere. And one of the quotes that I shared that I loved from that book had to do with the character Vanessa talking about when she flies in a plane and she looks down at the towns, like all she sees are the things that are the same. We all look the same from way up there.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

And yet when we're down in it, face to face with each other, all we see is how we're different. And so we need to start pulling ourselves up to the sky and looking down and saying, wow, there's a lot of similarity when we zoom out. Right. Um, versus like, how are we different? Because what matters most isn't generally how we're different. Um, it's just what we fixate on because that's what our brain doesn't know how to respond to.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

It's so interesting because when you start with the question of what I have in common, what do I have in common with this person, or what are the things that we share? Um that has the opportunity to totally shift the engagement that you have with someone. Yeah. Because you go from like pulling someone, like that's pulling someone in, like wanting to learn more, wanting to understand and and that those connective things. But whenever we start with, oh, well, where do you stand on this topic? And because I need to know like where you know how how hard I have to push or how understanding I need to be, like you're all you're just setting up a very like volatile situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

Yeah, when you in the brain, when you watch what actually happens, what lights up the different pathways in your brain that light up, um, when you're asking, like, what do we have in common? What do I share with this person versus how are they different from me? The the first, the what do we have in common, it activates or lights up those empathy pathways inside your brain that like our relator, that build, you know, empathy and understanding and inclusivity. And when you're asking the question, how are they different from me? The pathways that light up are the threat detection pathways. And so I think knowing our brain is wired this way on purpose, but we have the ability to actually use that to our advantage instead of letting that evolve into a disadvantage.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

Um, like I think that is the concept of agency and taking ownership back so that we can go chase happiness instead of just being wired for survival. I'd rather thrive than survive.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

I and I wonder if like you, if we did a look over like history, if you would see because right, it used to be like taboo to talk about religion, politics, like in public settings. Um and so part of me is wondering, like was that for the reason of you like we're trying to build a community, we have to all survive, we all have to like move forward, and and you know, things weren't as for as far progressed as they are today. Where now it's like that is something that is discussed, and it it is probably some of the most polarizing conversations that occur. Um but part of me wonders if there's like been like a shift over, you know, decades of how engagements work um in the social construct of of like meeting people for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:14

I don't know if that makes sense how I'm phrasing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

You know, I don't know. I think though this is where like neuroplacity comes in, right? Um, so if you think about it, one of my favorite comments um or phrases, one of my favorite sayings is that you don't have to have all of the answers. You just have to know what questions you should be asking. And I used to think that intelligence meant having all of the answers, right? And I heavily weighted um having the answers to things as like being the smartest. And um, I do think some of this has shifted over time with like access to information. We've talked about that in the past. But um it really the brain is growing when it's updating. And so, like all the if we can just challenge ourselves to be more curious, more open, instead of placing our value on being the rightest or having the most the most answers, um, instead like focus on having more questions. That's actually how we get smarter. And so, like to your question of like just being open around like being able to like challenge thinking, um, like I think that is a part of evolution, right? Like that's how we grow. Um so I don't know if that if that like feel feels relevant to what what you were thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:45

Oh, I think it I think it definitely does. Cause I also think like our definition of of intelligence um has changed over the years. And you're right, like intelligence, although has has been equated to I'm gonna give you information, your ability to regurgitate it onto a test or to write a uh compelling essay or whatever um is going to be used to describe your intelligence level has has shifted greatly through through the years.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Well, and it's not like you just got what you're born with. Like your brain has the uh your brain evolves, it grows. It is like a living organ that grows when you feed it, right? That's why they have these like brain games and brain activities and all these things. It's a it's an evolving thing and it can devolve as well. And so um by challenging ourselves um to think, to um question, like that's how our brain grows. Um, and so I think, you know, the other thing that I think is really salient here is that your um, we say this all the time, like your reaction is not what you should be judging yourself for, or you know, not that you should be judging yourself, but not what you should be holding yourself accountable to. It's your second thought. That's when you're choosing, right? So your reaction is that like instinct that happens. But then when you're listening and you are more aware of your reactions, your second thought is what you're choosing. That's what you're you're sticking with. And that's where we have to hold ourselves accountable. Yeah. Um, so I, you know, just interesting, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:23

So why are we talking about this in Pride Month? Why, why is this one of those areas that we decided um let, you know, we we've been very intentional this year about um topics that are both relevant in Pride Month, but also something that everyone can connect with.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

Well, that's intentional, right? Because if you can connect with a concept, then you can start to apply it to a group that maybe you can't connect with. Or, you know, um people listening to us probably um, you know, are more inclusive in mindset because we're pretty forward about our um advocacy uh and an allyship. But um, like how do we get other people to start to see the world a little bit differently? If you can relate to the concept, then you can start to like weave it in towards topics that feel a little less um, you know, flexible or fungible, um, which is an actual word, by the way. Oh, it is. It is fungible is a word. I didn't just make it up. It's an item or asset whose individual units can be readily and exactly interchanged with another of the same type of value. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Fungible. Um interchangeable, just think interchangeable. Um so so back to pride. Like, why are we talking about this? It's because like right now, the as particularly the trans community is being um like hyper-attacked. And um, you know, we do feel like it's important to advocate and to be an ally. And, you know, I do think that a lot of the um momentum behind why are we, you know, experiencing these um these attacks on rights of people in the trans community is because they they feel different. It feels like we can't relate, it feels like it's other. Um, and so you know, we're the the communities are coming out to, you know, kind of go danger. Um, and and really, like, I mean, I will say it again, just because you are trans doesn't mean you were inherently good. It also absolutely doesn't mean you were inherently bad. It is it like, but I mean, if I'm gonna be in the bathroom with somebody, it's not the trans woman that I'm afraid of.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

Yeah. I I think that months like Pride Month and Um Black History Month and Women's History Month, all of these things exist to show what I think is the humanity first in all of us. Like, are there differences? Yes, there are.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

However, a lot is the same. We are we have experiences, we are trying to move through this same world. Um, and and there is things that we have in common with one another. Yeah. But if we spend so much time focusing on the small little pieces that we don't understand or we don't agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

They are small, they feel big because they're made to feel big. Exactly. Because we inflate them and make them bigger, because they feel like a danger, so we call attention to them. This is a threat response.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

So uh I would highly encourage, because I I've I hear this all the time. Like, you know, why does the LGBTQ plus community need a need a pride month? Why did why is there pride? Um, one, I think because I'm I am who I am. I've I've come to this place through my life when society has very much so told me that I am in the wrong. Um, and so I'm damn proud to be here. Um but secondly, it's so that people understand that we are all just human.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:36

Yeah. And I mean, learning that familiarity and worthiness are not the same thing. Like, so being like me does not mean worthy. Um, you know, I think that is that that is the trick of normal. Um, like normalcy creates an inclusive into my group, creates worthiness, creates value. And that's the trap. Um, because, you know, lemmings will follow each other off the side of a cliff to their death just because they are trying to fit in and be normal and follow. And so let us not be followers like the lemmings and wind up at the bottom of the cliff with a broken neck.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:16

Okay, so you brought it all, you brought it like full circle back to the lemon. I was wondering how we were gonna get there.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:22

Full circle. Um, I I wish I could, I wish I had the speech because I can't remember all of it. But that I remember. That was my very firm point of view, and I I stick with that. Like we don't, we our human nature is to follow because following feels familiar and comfortable and predictable. And um, it also will lead to our demise. So um we need to encourage ourselves to get into that second level thinking of um like response. That's where the choice comes in. Um, because being familiar um does not equal worthiness. Being unfamiliar does not mean that somebody deserves less dignity, respect, or belonging. Like I can relate to stress about public bathrooms. And um, like I I just it is so upsetting to me that there are people that need to be able to use the bathroom that are not welcome in any place. And that's not okay. That is not okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:20

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:22

So um, unfamiliar does not mean that you deserve less dignity, respect, or belonging. And Pride Month isn't just, you know, it's not the only time that that this becomes important, but I think it is an opportunity for us to remember that and remind ourselves that you know we're fighting for you know, dignity, respect, and you know, human rights.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:49

Right. So that that's our pride connection. But but the the reason for the topic uh during Pride Month again is because it's something that we can it is this idea of the foul or the the what is this normal quotes um uh idea, like it it really is something that we should challenge and we should seek to better understand in our minds what we think normal is. So what if the goal isn't necessarily to eliminate our assumptions? What if the goal is really simply to become aware enough that our assumptions don't get that final vote? And we we move into that second level of thinking you were talking about, where we have that choice and we spend some time making sure that we're asking the right questions and seeking out the right information to help us make uh a more um aware decision.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:48

Yeah. So we talk a lot about journaling. And um, so if you are interested in exploring this topic a little more for yourself because it feels relevant, some options like prompts for some journaling might be thinking about what did I grew up believing was normal that I no longer believe? Um, how have norms helped me? Because remember, we said they're not bad. They're actually they can be a good thing. Um, what norms have limited me? Um, you know, where am I at today? When have I felt like an outsider? And what helped me feel welcome? And what small actions make people feel like they belong? Um, and then how how do how do I know when a belief deserves re-examination? Well, what assumptions are worth questioning? I mean, like you can't question every single assumption. You would you would be exhausted by the time you ate breakfast. But um, you know, there are some assumptions that are worth questioning. And I think that it doesn't mean that you have to have the answer. There are things, big things that I grapple with that I still grapple with. And I'm like, I don't know what I believe on this. And it's it's not about finally coming to an end answer. I think, you know, for me, the value is being willing to just still consider it, to get more data, more input to evolve. Um, because, you know, some things have really big impacts and they're worth continuing to think about.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:23

Yeah. I mean, I know you talked about these being like journal prompts potentially. We we started a podcast to explore some of these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

We did. We did. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, so you know, I think thanks, Chris, for joining me on this conversation of normal. I um It was so not normal. It was so not normal. Um, or it was like super normal for us. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:52

If we're on a spectrum, we're probably like normal-ish.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:55

Normal-ish. Um, I mean, I do think Pride Month isn't about asking everyone to be the same. It's just recognizing human and human dignity doesn't depend on fitting into somebody else's definition of normal. Um, you know, you can be your own normal. And um, we each are our own normal, and we should accept that about ourselves and others. And, you know, communities that are healthy aren't the ones that everyone looks the same or thinks alike or lives alike. Like we know this. There is data and research that says that groups that are made up of diverse people actually are more productive, they are more happy, they get more done, they achieve more, they're able to accomplish more. It's it, you know, when everyone is the same and every thought is the same, we become smaller, not bigger.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:44

Correct. Well, because you enter an echo chamber and people are afraid to stand out.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:49

Yeah, and it is scary. I mean, even me, even I'm scared sometimes to enter conversations where I people have opinions that I strongly um, you know, disagree with. But I think it's in those moments that I'm able to learn something. Doesn't mean I'm changing my mind. I don't have to change my mind. And we go back to our beliefs um being based on our values, then it's a lot more comfortable to have conversations and challenge ourselves because my values I'm gonna stick to. So I don't feel threatened. Um I know what my values are.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:25

Um, but I can challenge the way that I'm thinking and be open because I'm grounded in my values.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:31

And I think some I think people who kind of have the same backgrounds that we do, like growing up in in certain communities, like it can we we were taught that different is bad. Like certain certain differences were bad. And so it was hard to get curious about them. I mean, I personally was curious because like I identified with some of those communities. Um, but in other instances, like our innate sense isn't to like double click. It may be sometimes to close the browser.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:06

Yeah. Oh, that that is such that's so true. Like, just turn it off. I don't want to hear it because it's uncomfortable. And I think it doesn't have to be like expanding what's normal for you. You can still have your world of what's normal for you. I think it's just about understanding that um, you know, more than one normal exists. Whether you believe that or not, it's a fact, it's true. Like just look at fashion across the world today. Um, more than one normal exists.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:36

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:36

Um, and and so it that doesn't mean that your version of what's in your world and your normal has to change. It just means that we should be aware that your normal isn't the only normal. So um, what is it? You know, I'm not gonna yuck somebody else's yum.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:53

Yeah. And I mean, it wouldn't be an episode about being normal if we didn't say the quote, um, normal is just a setting on a washing machine. So you know, that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:02

It's so true. So we'd love to know what you think. Um, share with us. We'd love to know what you think about what we've talked about. We'd love to learn from you. We'd love to um like expand our understanding of the world around us. So please reach out to us, email us at connect at chris and genitm.com or text us at 940-278-8129, or drop a comment wherever you're listening now and tell us what you think.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:32

Yeah. And like I said, you know, we're on this different social media platforms, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. We talk about like having communities where there are different voices, different perspectives. We welcome them. We want to hear them. We want to grow this community with the voices of people who are on this journey of, you know, trying to be more intentional about the way you operate through the world. So uh check us out. You can find us at uh on all the different platforms as Chris and Jen ITM. Um, so feel free to like, follow, subscribe, comment, share, all of the things. Um, any help in growing this community is greatly appreciated.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:12

Absolutely. And until next time, be kind to yourself, to one another, and make it a great week. Bye, everybody.