Can Music Reduce Anxiety and Stress?

In this episode of Chris and Jen in the Morning, the hosts explore the powerful relationship between music, neuroscience, and emotional well-being. Moving beyond a basic appreciation for a good beat, they unpack how music acts as a total-body experience that recruits multiple brain networks simultaneously—affecting memory, movement, and emotion centers. From analyzing why we experience goosebumps during a powerful crescendo to examining the unique comfort found in melancholic melodies, this conversation provides actionable insights on how to intentionally leverage your daily soundtrack for better mental health and self-care.

Three Pivotal Points:

• Neural Entrainment and Co-Regulation: The hosts discuss how the brain naturally synchronizes its internal rhythms and brainwaves to external musical beats. Faster tempos can stimulate adrenaline, while slower tempos intentionally soothe the parasympathetic nervous system, making music a clinical tool for reducing anxiety.
• The Pleasurable Sadness Paradox: Breaking down the psychology of why happy people enjoy melancholic music, the episode explains how sad songs trigger emotional reflection and empathy without activating the brain's real-world threat or stress responses.
• Sound as an Emotional Time Machine: The episode highlights how sound encodes our earliest memories. Because music activates the reward pathways and memory systems at the same time, even a few notes can trigger a visceral recollection of a specific moment, feeling, or past experience.

Chris and Jen ITM Playlist

Pink - Just Give Me a Reason

Taylor Swift - All Too Well 

Jax- Victoria’s Secret

Lauren Alaina - Road Less Traveled

Shakira - Try Everything

Rachel Platten - Fight Song

Ava Max - Kings and Queens

Paloma Faith - Make Your Own Kind Of Music

Wicked - Defying Gravity

Website - www.chrisandjenitm.com

Email - connect@chrisandjenitm.com   

Voicemail and Text available at 940-278-8129

Merch - https://chris-and-jen-itm.printify.me/

Store - https://www.fabulousfavoritefinds.com/

Chapters

00:00 Breaking Beauty Rules

02:59 Mermaid Transformation

05:59 Makeup and Self-Image

09:10 K-Drama Plot Twists

11:57 Dreams and Their Meanings

21:29 Understanding Dreams and Self-Identity

22:58 Fireworks: A Celebration of Independence

27:00 The Economics of Fireworks

29:58 Historical Significance of Fireworks

31:56 Cultural Reflections on Fireworks and Celebrations

34:00 Personal Stories and Revelations

39:50 Navigating Jealousy in Relationships

54:00 The Power of Music in Our Lives

01:02:37 The Emotional Power of Music

01:09:31 The Science Behind Goosebumps and Anticipation

01:17:57 Neural Entrainment and Co-Regulation Through Music

01:26:34 The Emotional Journey of Music Composition

01:35:03 Music as a Time Machine for Memories

01:39:05 Musical Memories and Emotional Connections

01:45:15 The Power of Music in Emotional Regulation

01:50:04 Exploring the Appeal of Sad Songs

01:56:50 The Role of Music in Memory and Experience

02:05:02 Music as a Tool for Self-Care and Agency

 resources

Argan Oil - Liquid Gold - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argan_oil

Fireworks Safety Tips - https://www.cpsc.gov/Safety-Education/Safety-Education-Centers/Fireworks

History of Fireworks in America - https://www.history.com/topics/holidays/july-4th

Science of Sad Songs - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-music-mind/201911/why-do-we-love-sad-songs

Ask Doctor Ruth (Documentary) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=example

Neural Entrainment Research - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/01/230112123456.htm

Music Therapy for Health - https://www.musictherapy.org

Pink - Just Give Me a Reason - https://open.spotify.com/track/example

Taylor Swift - All Too Well - https://open.spotify.com/track/example

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Have you ever wondered why you can flawlessly remember the lyrics to a song from 1998? But when you walk in the kitchen, you completely forgot what you were there for, or why a specific melody can instantly bring you to tears while another one makes your heart race with pure excitement. Music isn't just something we hear, it is a full-body experience that alters our brain chemistry, triggers powerful dopamine releases, and literally rewires our nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

I love a good song, but then to also have like a strong lyric come through, like that to me is word candy. I just make my own app. Even when they are there, you sometimes make your own.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Look, we all experience it in different ways. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Today, Chris and Jen are diving deep into the fascinating neuroscience behind how rhythm syncs our bodies, why our favorite sad songs actually can bring you joy, and how you can intentionally use music as the ultimate self-care tool so you can live a happier life. Get ready to look at your daily playlist in a whole new way. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Welcome to Chris and Jen in the morning, where self-care meets real life. I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

And I'm Jen.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And I know I say this, I'm pretty sure every week that I'm excited about the topic that we're gonna talk about, but I'm like really excited about the topic this week.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Really excited. Really excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

I am. We're gonna talk about music, and I love music.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

I I know you do. And I love this topic, and I love music too. So I'm very excited um to dig into this today. I think we have some really good, I know, like in season one, you know, back in the early days of Chris and Jen. Yeah, we did touch on music as a self-care uh item, a tool. But today we're really gonna drop dive into like what is happening? Like, why does music affect us? And how can we like leverage it um to live happier lives?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So Yeah, like why can I remember song lyrics from, you know, my high school days, yet I can't remember what I was meaning to get out of the kitchen whenever I walked in.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

And what is this binaural beats thing? Like, is this real? Is it a real thing? I don't think that's binaural beats, but no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Um, but we're also gonna explore this thing around like why Jen so loves the sad songs.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Love the sad songs.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

So we're gonna unpack a lot today.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

I didn't read ahead in that, so um, I skimmed that part, but I didn't want to give away the secrets. So good.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, we're gonna have an authentic conversation.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

I'm gonna wait for you to educate me. Why do I like the sad songs? Um Yeah, so super excited about the conversation today. But before we get into that, let's um do gratitude, shall we?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

We shall. You go first.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Oh no. Um, well, there are so many things. There are so many things to be grateful for. And one of the things that I am thinking about right now is how grateful I am that you live in one of my favorites places to visit because I am coming to see you next week. And I love um, I love the adventure that we have when we get to spend time together. I love how approachable New York City is. Um, I absolutely love the theater. And uh speaking of music, all of the musicals that we get to go see. And so I'm just really grateful for the opportunity to get to go experience New York. And if you hadn't moved there more than 10 years ago, like I don't think I would get it, like I don't think it would be so approachable for me. So I'm just I'm I'm really grateful you are living in New York because it benefits me. Let's just bring it all back around.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Hey, it's your gratitude moment. So you you own it.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

But I am. I am really grateful to um like how how we have expanded our reach within the world um as we have, you know, evolved as humans and um how we get to go experience new things because as we'll talk a little bit about today, um, you know, there's a a bit of like experiencing something new that like gives a little bit of a dopamine release.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Exactly. And it's always fun to do it with people you love to hang out with, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah, that creates the safety and the security. Like that takes some of the anxiety out of it.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Well, um, I will tell you it is supposed to be hot here next week. Like our first 100-degree day is actually being forecasted. So be sure to bring your fans, your personal air conditioning units, all the things.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

If you could just make sure to put a call in to the best weathermen you've got there.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Can you dial up Al Roker? He could fix this, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Uh I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Oh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

I mean, they could probably lie to us and put different numbers on the on the screen, but I don't think that actually changes the temperature.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

It could, it could like just m play a mind game with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Okay, crazy.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Can we do it in um like Celsius or something? Is that a lower number? It's only 17 here.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

It's very feeling of very warm at this 17 degrees Celsius.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

I actually don't know how to convert Fahrenheit to Celsius, but I'm pretty sure 17 wouldn't be like a hundred. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah, no, I don't believe so. Um well, I'm super excited for y'all to come. We already have a few things on the to-do list. Um and some new experiences we're gonna go explore. So maybe we'll record some of those and share share it with all of you.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Yes, very excited. What about you? What are you grateful for? I mean, I know it's me coming there.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely um you and ace um coming. I'm super excited for that. But that will probably be my gratitude next week when when you visit it.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

I mean, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Don't be greedy.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

I'll bring you some argan oil.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Um, no, that's okay. Um, I think I'm good. Um, so I uh yesterday Frank had um turned on a documentary. You know how I love a documentary.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

I do. I know how you love a documentary.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

And it was uh it's called Ask Dr. Ruth.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Um I know Dr. Ruth.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yes, I think most people who grew up in the 80s, 90s probably remember hearing about her. I think it was Let's Talk About Sex or something, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Yes, where we learned, you know, just how to how to understand ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Correct. Like very like, um, so the documentary talks a lot about like her approach and how how she made it an approachable topic in a time where it was very like unpopular to to talk about it and censor it. Very taboo. Yes, and and um a lot it talks a lot about like how a lot of the networks were afraid of like what the censors were gonna do, and so like how much you know give and things that they were willing to how much leeway they were gonna give her. But what I didn't know is like how um how much she helped move forward the understanding of like the AIDS epidemic. Yeah. Um, and there were a couple of clips from her shows or from um her being interviewed where people were asking, um, they may have been like genuine questions, but they were also kind of uh ignorant questions. And to kind of hear her like cut through it and and talk about like I'm approaching this by the hum humanity of it and the science of it. I'm not I am not talking about this from like a moral high ground or judgmental anything like that. And like that was her approach, and so to kind of like hear that and see that I had I was not aware of that, um, you know, because I am so young. Um, but there was one um thing that she said in the interview, um, and I had left the room and um Frank took it back because he thought I would love to hear this quote from her. And she says, respect is not debatable. And I just simple quote, but like cut straight to the core. Like, um, and so I don't know, like just having watched that, getting a better sense of who she was and kind of her approach, and I don't know, like it was just inspirational that there are people out there who um like who do care and who see the humanity in people. We need more of that, and we need more people to to put that out into the world. So, and that's what we do here in our little corner of the universe.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yes. I don't know whose corner you're calling little. Just kidding. You're it's but you're right. It's um that's such a good quote, and thank you for sharing that. I am grateful that you've shared.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah. All right, let's talk music.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Let's talk music. Um, let's talk about it. So your brain, it doesn't just hear music, like your whole body experiences it. What like why?

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yeah, so um when we listen to music uh music, it's actually one of the few um sensory things that activate so many different networks in our brain. Yeah. Um, our auditory cortex, the motor cortex, um, the memory systems, we're tapping into the emotion centers, like all of these things like are coming together and creating this experience for us. So you may think like I'm just pressing play on a song, but what is actually happening in our brains and in our bodies are like we talk about, you know, these things just happen without us knowing them. This is one of them. Like it just kind of um sparks this excitement within our bodies.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

And to me, I hadn't like I knew like some of this stuff, but like the idea of how um like our reward pathways start getting um lit up because we're excited about um the music, the beat, the uh the lyrics, like so many different things like go into this. And it just like makes you come to life. And that's exactly how I feel when I when I'm listening to a good song.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Yeah. Yeah, like it gets you in what you're hearing. It like you start to move around. Um at least I do. Um you you start to remember those things associated. Um, and it takes you back to that moment in time. You start to feel things. Um, I think music is a way to be able to experience your emotions when that's something that you're not good at practicing. Um it, yeah, like you said, it's like your reward pathways. Um, it opens up like so there's there's this dopamine uh effect that comes into play. And then like your higher order of thinking, it starts to combine all of those things. It just it is one of the very few things that we can experience that recruits so many of your systems simultaneously. And um, like crafting music, like actually making music, activates even more. So um like when I think about how important music has been over time, um, like all the way back, way back, you know, music carries forward through time. And um, that was really interesting for me to kind of consider as we pulled this together. Like, why is music such a centric part of humanity? Um and it's also why music therapy is being studied for like stroke recovery, dementia, Parkinson's disease, depression, chronic pain, because it recruits so many systems simultaneously um that you know it can have a an impact on how our our like health, our overall health, because all of our systems are tied together. So exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Um well, whenever you listen to it and those things start to get activated, it is like it um like that stimulation doesn't require a whole lot of like action from us. It's just it's just listening. And um I uh in college, when I first was going to college, um I took a deaf culture class. And actually a lot of people in deaf community. Uh and they um many do like music, like they will um turn it on and turn it up because they can feel it, the beat the waves. Yeah, right. So like that's also a way like even people who can't necessarily hear the music can still experience it. And I think like when you talk about like how it's this connected tissue like throughout history and humanity, like it really does, like it it r connects to all of us.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Yeah. Speaking of things that you feel when you listen to music, sometimes you're listening to a song and you get goosebumps or chills. Yeah. Does that happen to you?

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Absolutely. Like, you know, I'm I'm I love a good song, but then to also have like a strong lyric come through, like that to me is like what's well if they're not there, I just make my own app. Even when they are there, you sometimes make your own.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Look, we all experience it in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

That's right. And you know, no, no one way is wrong.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

I mean, they say creating music recruits even more of those systems. Maybe that's just what I'm doing. It's a higher order.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yes, you are. You are higher ordering as you're making up your your own lyrics.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Um so what like what's with the goosebumps? Why does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Um are you familiar with the word uh I think it's pronounced fr Frission? No, it's frission? Frisian. It's French though.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

I think it's frission.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

No, no, no, frission is a different word. That's with an I-O-N. Frison? Frison?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Sure. It's spelled F-R-I-S-S-O-N. In French, it means shiver.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

It's frission. No, frission is I-O-N.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Okay. Carry on. So it's French for shiver, and it doesn't mean like we're cold or that our bodies are like needing to be wrapped up in something. It's our bodies truly experiencing what we're hearing. And it it um activates the parts in our bodies that are actual or in our brain. Like, you know, we've talked about how we have pathways that are meant to like, you know, protect us. And sometimes they don't know the difference between like, oh, I really like this, and oh my gosh, do we need to run? Um and so it it ignites that portion in our bodies, and so we we get goosebumps. It could maybe even if you're experiencing music and it brings tears to your eyes. Um it's it's this idea that as um our brains are making predictions, and sometimes those predictions are right. So in music, it's the beat, it's the when you're expecting like the chorus to come in. Um, maybe you're expecting a certain note to be held. But there are times whenever those things um aren't what what our brain is predicting. Yeah. And so whenever that happens, it it moves us into this experience of, oh my gosh, like that was beautiful, or I wasn't like, I didn't think that that was gonna happen. So like a singer holding a note longer than we were expecting them to. Maybe it's like when the orchestra really swells, I think back to um uh defying gravity and wicked and how um that orchestra just like all of a sudden comes in really strong as she's getting to the apex of that song. Like that moves you, that that creates those moments of um feeling excited, the dopamine starts rushing. Um, and your brain goes, wait, what what what just happened? Like that was amazing. How can we experience that again? And those uh reward pathways just light up and we're all excited.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Did you know that research has actually shown that dopamine isn't only released after your favorite part arrives in music, but it also happens right before. Um, because you're anticipating this emotional payoff and the dopamine already starts to come. And so that's why a song building toward the chorus can almost feel like addictive sometimes. Um, because you're getting those dopamine hits. So that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah. And another way I think to think about this, if you're someone who likes roller coasters, and I know that you are not.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Absolutely. That is like the dopamine doesn't come. Instead, it's the amygdala.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah. This all the stress hormones start.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Maybe it has to do with that like falling from the monkey bars and breaking my arm as a kid. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Very well could be. But yesterday we were on the subway and um we're we were on one that's above ground and we're in the first car. And it's the train that we always it's the train that we always take, but like I was able to see forward. And I know like what the track does, but I had never like seen it, seen the track as we're we're doing it. And so the all of a sudden I see the track kind of turn and then go down, go, go down, but like I can't see it, it's not in my field of vision.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And all of a sudden I'm just thinking, like, if I were on a roller coaster, like this would be like the most making me feel a certain way. Yeah. Um, and then that payoff is whenever it finally like drops. Luckily, this subway did not drop.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

The subway doesn't like quite peak and valley like a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Exactly. But it's that like whenever you're go like for me, like that's music can do that for me. Like it can build me up and give me that much excitement. And then like whenever I get that payoff, it's it's just um amazing. And so I think people who maybe are really into roller coasters may relate to that. Or if it's stress-inducing, that then it's not anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

Yeah. I mean, I think when you think about like with the roller coasters, like, and how I say for me, it's like the the fear, it's like the the um it it makes your your hair stand up when you get the goosebumps, and you get like scared and threatened. And but sometimes your brain uses the same pathways for these overwhelming overwhelming feelings or emotions. And so, like you get a feeling that comes through or somebody says something that you just really emotionally connect with, and you get goosebumps. Um, and music often brings just enough balance of unpredictability that it it's it's not boring. Um but it it's also not enough to cause stress. So that balance between expectation and surprise is one of the reasons that music is really just so emotionally powerful. Um also fun fact, did you know that people who experience friction, frisson? Can somebody tell us how to say this more often? Also tend to score higher on openness, openness to experience.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Well, that I mean, I guess that would make sense because you're willing to go on that journey, like of you have a level of predictability, so that excites you now whether that is going to be a positive payoff or a stressful one.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Well, yeah, music is typically not like the the stressful one, right? Because it's so you know it's it's a safe place. But like this, I think is part of why um going to a concert, you get to experience it like more because you've got even more like um systems lit up that way throughout the entire experience. You might have had a drink or something, and so maybe you're like mental control over your feelings or emotions is you know, the the the grip of the hand is slightly less tight. And so you can go on that emotional journey. Um, you're a little more op open to experience alcohol does make you sometimes a little more open to experiences.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

As we previously discussed.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

It's the social, yes, as we know warm-up. Yes, we did. Particularly you. It's why they call it liquid courage.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Um, and so um, you know, it's it's why sometimes people will like have a have a drink and listen to a record, or you know, why they sell um booze at at venues, yeah, you know, so often um because you're there for like the whole experience and it kind of helps you calm the nerves so that you can be open to the whole thing. But you know, you always feel like the the now sometimes for me the feeling is like sensory overload. Um, like it's just so loud, it's so much. There's it's just a little too much. But um, that's why I like the concerts that people go to where you just kind of sit down and enjoy it. Enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So the last concert before like the pandemic and everything shut down, Frank had got us take his de scenes to see Celine Dion. I'd never seen her before. And I was interested to see like how because she's she is a vocalist, like sh she doesn't have like backup dancers, she's not like putting on like it's a it's a ballad.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

And so I was interested to see like how this experience was going to be. And definitely one of the highlights of of my concert going experiences because of exactly what we're talking about here, like the music is what speaks to you. And kind of and and it was really cool to not like it wasn't just me. Like we were at Barclay Center in in Brooklyn and it was packed. Like so a lot of people were on that same roller coaster with me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Well, I often think, you know, when you watch movies from way back in the day, like um White Christmas, you've got like the the lounge singer and people sitting at tables listening to people perform. And I often think, like, that's how I want to experience music because it's a little less overwhelming. But Ace does this great thing where he'll buy concert tickets and he'll try and get them like in the the first row of a section. So I'm I'm not like, well, one, I'm a little bit short. I know you can't tell here, but I'm pretty short.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

So um I'm big personality, but uh she came in a compact uh compact.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

It just squishes down this way, guys. Um so um it's a lot of person to put in this little space. Um but yeah, I um I like I can see better, but also I don't have like it's it's a little um kind of from a sensory standpoint. I have a little bit of breathing room, so I don't feel quite as anxious, um, which which I really appreciate. Um so and the the very last fray concert that happened before the lead singer left. We've been to see them so many times on concert, there was a whole row in front of us, um, where there were like five seats in front of us that no one sat in. Nice. All right in front of us. But every other seat was taken. So you do the math. How many tickets did Ace buy?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

You you think he bought seven tickets?

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

He did not think, you know that he bought seven tickets.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

He's never admitted to it, but he also has not said he didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Alright. Look at Ace.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Like, how could I how could I have had How could you have gotten that lucky? Every other seat. And this smaller little venue in Chicago was taken. And here we are, great distance back, we're not too up closed, we can see the whole thing, like and just these five seats in front of us that no one is sitting in.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

If Ace truly did that, what an act of love.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

That's love. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If he didn't truly do that, then what?

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Like, how lucky are y'all?

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Um we'll never know. We'll never know. But we kind of know. We kind of know.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

It's one of the mysteries of life. But we know Ace, so I feel like it's a fairly safe assumption to know what happened.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Yeah. Um so so um the the super cool discovery in neuroscience uh that that um is relevant here um has to do with like how rhythm literally syncs your brain. So there's this um discovery called neural entrainment. Neural entrainment. Um I always want to say entertainment when I say that word, but neural entrainment. Entrainment. Yes. And that's where your brain waves naturally begin to match external rhythms. That's interesting. So um, like we talk about co-regulation sometimes, right? And how like when somebody else is getting escalated, if you remain calm, they may like, or co-regulation can happen, uh co-irregulation, right? When somebody else is like worked up and then you get really worked up, right? Um and so um it's kind of the same sort of like concept that music like can help you co-regulate, like the the your brain waves start to match the external rhythms. And so um, if you're like trying to amp yourself up, like we talk about like what are those songs that we love to listen to, you know? I love that like work, work, work, work, you know, like to get me like amped up. And then um, like the slow rhythms encourage relaxation. So um, like when I'm in my sauna, I love to turn on uh spa radio on Pandora. And um, I do think it is my preferred spa radio venue and channel. Um, it plays some of my favorite songs. Um, but you know, it's like you you go get a massage, you like to do that, right? Like, do they play spa radio type music when you get a massage? Yeah, it's because like your body is co-regulating with that music. It's it's a neural entrainment, um, and your brain waves are actually slowing down. Um, the repetitive beats help to coordinate music, um, coordinate your rhythm. Uh so um so if you think about a movie score and how the music behind the scene amplifies an emotion or it signals like what's to come, um, next time you experience it, start noticing your physical response. So if if the um tempo is faster, does your heart rate beat faster? If something slows down or feels calm, like so you know, I would say that slow songs often have a calm like rhythm to them. So maybe there's something there in terms of like my love of balladie slow songs. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Um it's so interesting this idea around like movie scores, because I do remember watching um like a scary movie, uh like the behind the scenes of it, and they were talking about I can't I think it was maybe like the newer When a Stranger Calls or something like that. And like so much of the movie is actually just like this one character and like her moving throughout a space. So they like you they had to figure out like how are we telling the story beyond just like the visuals? And so, um, and I don't I don't remember if it was this one or if it was something else, but uh a music theory class maybe, but they had like taken different music and laid it over different scene, the same scene.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah, and you feel it invokes different things, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Um, and it's like your your heart rate and your breathing um start to synchronize too, right? Like with what your brain waves are doing. Your brain is literally telling your body, start syncing up with the rhythms that you hear. And that's why you start like tapping your foot, or people will naturally like fall into rhythm and clapping along together. Um, or you know, from a dance standpoint, like I don't my body doesn't understand how to move in time and space that way. But um, you know, maybe maybe that's I just need to be less inhibited. I don't know. Maybe uh I don't think that's the problem.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

We can explore that while you're here.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Yeah. Uh I'm not sure that that's the problem though. Um I don't think people get like more um like coordinated with alcohol. I think they just they just care less. So I'm I don't know. Maybe there's like a maybe there's like a like a payoff somewhere, like just a little bit and you're a little less inhibited, but then too much and you're you can't move properly.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

And then hear the story.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Um so this is like really interesting, right? But it's also part of I love to go to the orchestra. Um, like I haven't been in a long time. I we we used to go, like they used to actually really invest in music education um in public school where I was from. And we would like go on field trips to the orchestra and stuff. And so I actually like would really like that. And I remember my grandma would go to the orchestra and um people would be like, that's so weird. And I'm like, oh, I actually like I could see why she would like that. Because you like can close your eyes and cause it's not you're gonna miss out on anything. And there, I mean, you know, I don't know, it's like they're a long ways away and you can't really see what they're doing. Yeah, um, but you just get taken on this whole journey and there's like a story that evolves. And I like to listen to classical music. Um, you know, it's not boring, it's not always slow, sometimes it's fast, but it does they they use a lot more changing in like tempo and um, you know, like a lot more variation that like takes you on this emotional journey. Um, that anime, Your Lion April, that you got bored with after like the first episode.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

It's two the first two episodes things.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

You've got a lot of classical music in it, which I absolutely love. And so, like to me, it just adds to the emotion of the show. So you'll have to watch the whole thing. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

I do think like that is an interesting perspective because I think a lot of times when people think of music, you're thinking of like whatever's like you on hot on your like playlist or your Spotify, whatever. But when you think about like how long music has been around and like the instruments and things, like uh sometimes it is just the orchestra and it is the like some of the some of the biggest, most moving pieces when I think back to like Lord of the Rings, um Harry Potter, like they don't have words. They are actually just the the instruments that are that are helping tell the story, evoke the emotion in the world.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Yeah, see you don't understand why I can listen to a song and not understand the the lyrics behind them or make my own lyrics up, or like I was saying to Ace as we were listening to the fray uh like a a couple weeks ago or a week ago, oh, like these are really sad songs. And he was like, Are you just pulling my leg? Like, are you just realizing that now? Um, but like you can get carried away in like the sound of it all. Um so you know, I hospitals use music to reduce anxiety before surgery, or um, like I know I've had some longer MRI sessions um and like for my head and other things, and it being somebody with anxiety who also is really claustrophobic, um the get putting your head in the MRI machine for like 30 minutes is like awful.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

A lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

So it's it's really awful. And um, I've had some really great MRI techs who um, you know, are like, okay, we're gonna play some music, and um like it really does help you, um, which is which is great.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Um uh the dentist offices are also doing that. Oh yeah and um I like that is the my least favorite doctor to go see.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

Is a dentist.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah. And uh I actually don't listen to it. I I know a lot of people who do, um, and because it does help. But for me, I'm like, no, I need you to talk me through what you're doing so that way like I'm not like I don't like surprises when it comes to the you should try like a C B D drink or something before your dentist maybe listen to a little bit of calming music on your way.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Um the the combination of tempo, of key, and of dissonance versus harmony also creates this emotional journey and these context uh signals that our whole body gets involved with and reacts accordingly. So um, like we talked about, if you think about tempo, um, and a lot of composers when they're composing a score, so if you think about orchestra, you know, use this um as they compose. So if you think about tempo, it's fast versus slow. You know, fast increases your adrenaline, slow can activate your parasympathetic nervous system. And um, if you think about key, major key versus minor key, major chords often sound more joyful, more like hopeful. And minor chords often sound more melancholy or reflective or mysterious. Maybe I just have an affinity for minor chords. Um sad. I think you do. Um, dissonance versus harmony, um, that forms tension and release. And so when notes clash, your brain is like, you know, how it's like, oh, I don't like that. That, or um, that's when it's really bad. But but like there can be a little bit of dissonance that's, you know, doesn't like feel painful, but it creates this tension, right? And it grabs your attention. And then when notes fit together really harmonically, that auditory core, um, the the auditory cortex processes them really efficiently. So it feels really pleasant. Your brain doesn't have to like pause and like think about it. Um, and so, you know, the like composers will use this to take you on this emotional journey that is like really pleasing. Um, like your example of a roller coaster, you know, you build this tension and then you get the release.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Right. And I think what's interesting, um, I hadn't really thought about this until you were talking about like the dissonance versus the harmony. Like a lot of music that's like in the mainstream, I would say works within harmony. Yeah. Where I think a lot of musical theater, you see more of that dissonance in it because the music is helping tell the story. And so you do get kind of those two perspectives, especially if like, you know, they're characters who are, you know, have different objectives, and so they may use that to help like tell the story. Um, so thanks.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

I didn't even think it keeps those, like it creates those attention grabbing. Yes, exactly. Um, okay, so what about frequency? Have you heard like social uh stuff as you're scrolling or whatever about different like frequencies, or is that just in my feed because I um search anxiety stuff a lot. Um just your feed. Um so there's there's this so not true. There's this um concept out there that like listening to um music at different frequencies, like 432 hertz or 528 hertz or binaural beats, that's when one ear, like you're listening in headphones and one ear is getting um like one hertz and the other is getting a different frequency. And the concept is that your brain would get what's in between. So if one is at 200 hertz and the other is at 220, your brain is just hearing 20 hertz. Um so studies have not actually shown or proven that this has any impact on you, listening to music at a certain frequency. Um it's supposed to be like people say, Oh, if you listen to music at this frequency, it actually calms you down, it reduces anxiety. Like so naturally, you would think that I would be interested in that because I am looking for that quick fix ticket, even though I always say that there is not one. Um, so like, does it hurt you? It's not gonna hurt you. Um, so you want to lean in, like my opinion, my take on this is go for it. Like if you feel a difference, is it just the placebo effect? I mean, does it really matter why?

unknown 37:45

Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Right, but in in these instances, like when you have to like have the ability to change the frequency, like whatever you're listening to.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

You just listen, uh, like so so songs are like when you're listening to a song, they can actually put in the track what goes in your left ear versus what goes in your right ear, right? So the binaur beats, that's like how that works, or um, like mu you can find music that is set at a certain frequency.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Gotcha. So it's like the people have like put stuff out too. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

And so um if you're hoping for a quick fix to avoid doing the work of relaxing, and for me, relaxing is like a lot of work, um, you might be disappointed. Uh, but also uh, you know, and like even Mythbusters debunked this stuff, but um also like you know, it does it gonna hurt you? No, it's not it's not gonna hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

So I think it's worth a try, right? Like if you're looking for something and look, if if through this journey of this podcast has taught us anything, we are all individuals. And so how how things impact us, how it shows up for us, is gonna be personal to us.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Well, we what we do know is that if you're listening to music at a slower pace, your brainwave will match with that. So um, like it's really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah. Look, you do not have to sell me on music. I am totally bought in.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

Um, it's also powerful, like, from our memory. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

So um I like to think of it as music as a time machine because there are times like have you ever listened to a specific song with someone? And now every time you hear that song, you think about them.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Me too. I have a co-worker who I introduced the song Just Give Me a Reason by Pink and Nate Ruiz. And every time she hears that song, not maybe not every time, but frequently when she hears the song, she texts me, and it's like just this fun like little thing that we have. And so, like, you get it. I love that song.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

It's a sad song. So I absolutely love it. I love it, love it, love it.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

And Pink is just also awesome. So uh Pink is my hero. Um, but like it's those types of things that also we talk about, like how um music like um enacts all of those different mechanisms in our brain. This is one of them, so it can transport you back to that time when you heard that song, or when um it doesn't even have to be like something big and like a life-changing milestone. It's just like that song now holds a special part for you. And so you remember where you were, you remember, you know, maybe what you were wearing or what whose car you were in. Like it's things like that that like a song has so much power behind it.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Well, some of our very earliest memories in life are actually stored in sound. The way that we think about memory is like we tend to think that it's it's like watching a movie, I guess. I don't know if we thought about this before TV and like film and such, but um, like we think about memory like as if we're watching a film, but not your memories really aren't all stored in that full experiential way. And so um some of your very earliest memories that you have are really just tied to sound. And so hearing a sound brings you back to a specific place and time. And so if you think about it, when you hear like lullabies, like you may, uh a familiar lullaby will call you back to a certain time. So often when you're hearing a lullaby, you're being comforted, right? Uh you're soothed, you're a baby that's crying and they're soothing. And so lullabies, however creepy the words may be, this the melody may make you feel soothed or calm. Um in part maybe because of the way that the melody is built, and in part because it may be attached to, you know, um one of your early memories of how music is stored. So that's that's um like how memories are stored. So that's really interesting to think about, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Um, like even just like a few notes of something. Like it may not even be like the full song that's played, but you hear a couple and you're like, oh my gosh, that makes me think of this song. And that reminds me of this. Like you start going down memory lane.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

There are some songs I really, really hate. And um Okay, okay. When I think about there are like like two artists and two um like songs that I can think about that just evoke this feeling of nausea in me. And the the reason is I was pregnant when I heard those songs. Um, I was driving this car in the hot, hot summer in Kansas, who which had this um like bad uh seal for transmission. And so you always it's a cute little sports car, but it was a lemon. And um I really got taken for on that one. And um you it you just always smelled transmission fluid, and then like it would just on a really hot day, that seal would just completely melt and all of the transmission fluid would just dump when you were at a stop sign or something. And um, like just the feelings of stress and anxiety, the I was so terribly morning sick, um, all day.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Does it does like when you hear those songs, like does the does the smell come back to you as well?

SPEAKER_03 43:23

The transmission fluid, the feeling of like vomiting, like it all comes back when I so when I am like Kylie Minogue and Michelle Branch, like very popular back then. So some very popular songs on the radio, and when I hear them, I am just like my stomach is literally turned.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

It's so interesting that you say that because I I my best friend, she um she really attaches like music to people, like like the feelings that they invoke is attached to. So I remember one time she was like going through. Breakup, and I think there was like a fairly popular like breakup song or something like that on the radio. And um, I didn't necessarily like the song, so I was not mad that she associated it with someone in a meeting. Like, she would just whether she was the driver or the passenger, she would always like change it as soon as she heard it.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Um, but I always found that interesting for people like attaching that much to a song. Um, because I don't I don't know if I necessarily have like that, like, oh, I can't listen to that song because it reminds me of so-and-so, and I don't want to think about them. But then like hearing your experience, like it's not about a person, but it's about the experiences that you went through.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

It takes me back to that very specific moment in time um where that song must have been on, and I must have been, you know, um, like in the car, smelling that, feeling like I'm in a throw up. Like it was very, they were very popular songs at the time. And so um, yeah, I I just can't do it. Um uh is so you know, but also like Fly Me to the Moon by Frank Sinatra was our song that we danced to at our wedding. And so, like anytime I hear that song, I'm just like immediately smile comes on. And I think about, you know, marrying the love of my life. And um, like all of those memories come back. And I think about, you know, being taught by our friend Phil how to dance. Um you know, so all of it was because we were like, how do we dance? Um, we need to learn.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Help me know how to dance. I don't want to make an embarrassment of it.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

He was like, Yes, we need to learn. We we, we me, I needed to learn. He knew how to dance. I just um even when I try to follow, I'm not following. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

That is a shocker. I I never would have saw that coming.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Look, if I understood what to do differently, I would do it. Yeah. So it's pe people just need to be able to explain it to me in a way that connects. Otherwise, I feel like I'm just stepping on toes and stuff. I don't know where how to move myself.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

But I do think like that, like the power of a song to like it can make you feel very visceral towards something, right? It can bring up those things, but then like it it's the spectrum, and you can go the entire other opposite way. And, you know, that Frank Sinatra song, it brings up like happiness and joy and brings back those memories, like Al Green's Let's Stay Together, like Frank saying that to me on our wedding day. So that so that's why like music can take can transport us, right? That's why I say it's like a time machine because I do truly believe like whenever we don't even mean to, like the song can just come on and it immediately takes us back to that place.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

I feel like K-dramas are so good at using soundtracks um oftentimes, and uh particularly the ones I love the most. And there's um one that we bought the the soundtrack to that um is in my morning music list. Um, and because it's got a lot of sad songs, to be honest, but um happy songs too. But I I love them and I love to listen to them. And what they do is um oftentimes you'll see this pattern of them taking a piece of a song and playing it in certain moments where something is happening between the two main characters, um, you know, from a romance standpoint. And so you just get that sound attached to this feeling, right? And um, so then this like dopamine trigger, just like every time I hear it, I just get the feeling. Um, and you know, like that's music is is memory. Um correct.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

And that's what a lot of um like people who write for Broadway, people who um write for movies, a lot of times like you will find, especially if there's no words, if it's just instrumental, like they will call it like that per that character's name or when those characters are together because it's the same like song that they use to just immediately evoke those emotions.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

To that, uh that emotional moment in time. So you're feeling the right things to be able to be on the journey of the story. It's a way to help unfold the story without using words. Um, and I I think it's a beautiful way to bring art together.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

So well, and I think that's a perfect like transition to this next idea around us choosing different music for different moments in our lives. Like, I do believe that um, you know, you talked a little bit earlier about uh using uh each other to regulate our emotions, safe spaces, things like that. And it does like music can actually help either bring you up, take you down. For me personally, like if I am needing to get something done, like around the house, or if I'm in the kitchen, I'll turn music on because for me, it like creates that opportunity to be a little bit more upbeat, excited. Um, it just gets the energy flowing for me. Um, and I know that we've talked about it before how when you and I have stayed in a hotel room together or you guys have been here, and like I get up and I turn music on, like to are like it's really here. We go, we're starting the day. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Well, and you know, I think music is off also a way that is kind of safer to help you experience emotions or express emotions. And so um, if you're feeling a certain way, but you're kind of like you're you kind of keep a tighter hand on top of your emotions, like some people we know, um, and love. Um, it's a it's a good safe way to experience or express or get out an emotion that you're having without having to like dig into or deal with what you're really feeling. Um, I also think that it is a way that you can have camaraderie in a feeling that you have so that you don't feel alone. Like I recall um, you know, being in middle school, high school, and you know, doing that like puppy love, heartbreak, and you know, the songs come on and you just sing along with them and you just don't feel alone because somebody else is singing, you know, the same thing that that they're expressing, those feelings that you're having. So there's like some camaraderie in those songs. Um, and I think that's a that's a big part of music is creating like a sense of community, whether it's, you know, around comfort or whether it's around like rituals and traditions, it's it creates this sense of like togetherness um that I think is is, you know, like really unique.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

But I think you also experience it differently based on like when you're when or how you're listening. So I I think the example that I have for this is um when the little the live action Little Mermaid was coming out, I was listening to the soundtrack of the Disney movie.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

And um Howard Ashman is the lyricist for The Little Mermaid. He also did Little Shop of Horrors. Um, but like the song Part of Your World. Okay, I have listened and seen this movie since I was a child. But for some reason I'm standing in the kitchen, have my music on, doing like dishes or cooking something. And it was the first time like I really like cued in to like the lyrics. And you hear things like, I want to be where the people are, I want to see, I want to see them dancing, walking around, um, uh, what I would give to live out of these waters. And again, I've heard these lyrics for years, but it was like the first time that like I guess like my soul was hearing them.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Yeah, somebody was saying what you were thinking. They were seeking your feelings.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

It took me back to like before I came out and like all of those feelings that I had like stuffed down there, and then all of a sudden, like I'm thinking about the the world I now get to live in, the world that I now get to experience and and take part in. And it's like, wow. So later we watched like this documentary on him, and he actually was a gay man. Um now it is some people will say that, like, oh well, you know, this is you know, him putting his thoughts, feelings in into words. There was actually someone in the documentary who was like, he absolutely did not do that, like that he wrote for the characters, yeah, but obviously, like there can be an agreement made for the characters.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

He could understand them, right? Like you could understand them in a way that you could really connect to that emotion.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Exactly. So that's why I feel like songs may be old, but they you can experience them new and for a first time based on where you are in your life. Joan, I know it.

SPEAKER_03 53:03

Um, yeah, I uh so let's talk about sad songs. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about sad songs. We've reached the part of the episode that's inspired this entire conversation.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

True. That's true. You may have said once or twice before on the podcast that you really enjoy sad songs. I do. I really do. Before we dive in to to the neuroscience and actually some of the psychology and uh philosophy.

SPEAKER_03 53:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Why do you think that is? Why do you think like the sad songs are what what capture your attention or or grab you?

SPEAKER_03 53:39

I don't know. I don't know if I want to know the answer. What tell me, why do you think?

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Well, so uh honestly, I don't know. Like I do think like sad songs do I think it leaves more air um for the music to experience it uh out of everything you've shared, like things that help kind of um uh bring you down isn't the right word, but it's like a sadness within like what's interesting is when I think about like um the song that we mentioned with Pink and Nate Roos, um like I feel good when I sing it.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

I don't feel sad when I sing it. Like it's not about like matching my feelings to a feeling they're evoking, even though the story they're telling, it's like a really sad story.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Right. Well, so interesting. So this is like where some of the the psychology has come into this. Um, there is this myth that if you like sad songs, you're a sad person, and that is actually not the case. Like we just busted that myth.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Like there is Yeah, I'm a pr I'm a pretty like peppy person.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

You are, you're very peppy. Um, there is in um uh psychology and philosophy this idea of the pleasurable sadness paradox, and okay, what is that? This is our brain's ability to find enjoyment and emotional reward in um art or media, so like it can be like the art that you see, the photos you take, the uh in dance, um, and it can evoke sadness, um, and whether that's like a heartbreaking song, a tragic movie. And the brain actually achieves um this understanding and this reward um through processing these things. And it's almost this I can ex I understand like I can experience these things in real life, um, but I have this actual dissonance. It is not my life.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

So it's not happening to me. I exactly I have a great love story. So exactly. I don't have to feel sad about this.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Right. So when something bad or sad happens in our personal lives, our brains get activated, the amygdala that we've talked so much about. It encourages stress hormones, um, that gets released into our systems, and our body prepares to deal with a threat.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

However, music creates a safe space for us to actually process these things. So somehow our brains are able to recognize this is not actually happening to us, and it it allows us to kind of process an emotion, but not feel like we're in danger from that emotion.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Yeah. Well, I like the I like the first part better that we were talking about where you can just like experience it, but you know that you don't have any threat here because it doesn't relate to you. And I would just say, Mr. Producer, when you get all like, why do you love sad songs? It's because I have such a happy love story that I can enjoy a sad song. It's not real to me.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Um I think you're walking away with the wrong No, but I do think I I think there it doesn't always have to be like this huge like upset, right? Like there are wonderful songs that have been written out of grief and heartache and heartbreak.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

That doesn't mean we've experienced it in our lives, but there's this understanding that these are emotions and we can sympathize and we can empathize with people. And it makes us feel like we're not alone, whether it's our story or not, it's it's a real emotion that we have likely encountered somewhere in the world. And so it's like you were talking about like how when you're physically with someone and music can create that connectivity for each other. Music actually can create this connectivity without having to be with one another, because we're expressing our emotions and our feelings, and and we we can understand that. That is a language that we understand.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

Pleasurable sadness paradox isn't about loving sadness, it's about loving sadness that can give us reflection or connection or empathy or remind us what it means to be human, to feel exactly.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

So I think this is Chris Armstrong. Yes, psychoanalyze me.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Um I think you really do connect with people. I think you want connection. I think you in an authentic way.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

And I think because of that, like you're also looking for that in the things that um you fill space with.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Such as music.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

You do feel really connected to somebody's emotion. I mean, it's why I like the fray. It's why I like Ed Sheeran. Like they're songwriters that that sing about things they feel pink. Like you you can see that she's singing emotions.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

Yeah. I will say um uh storytelling, I think, in music is also a very important um uh ability within the art form. And I think one artist who has that ability is Taylor Swift. I do think like whenever you you find that um storyteller type song, I think of Edge here in the same way, like very much so people who can take an experience and and take you through that emotion. So that's why I think you like sad songs. I think because it's not telling you how to feel, it is allowing you to move through your feelings.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

Well, that's so good. That's so good. Um, we figured we answered the question. I buy-in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

How about bill you for that session?

SPEAKER_03 59:18

Um so let's talk about memory.

unknown 59:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

So I had, you know, we we collaborate on pulling content together for these uh recordings. And um I had gotten through pulling stuff together that I wanted, and then all of a sudden it just dawned on me because I was listening to music as I was doing this. Um, and a song I was a huge NSYNC fan when they were around. Like huge. Um, and I still am, and if they ever go on tour, I am going.

SPEAKER_03 59:48

Um, but they did they did no Backstreet Boys did.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

Oh get your boy bands straight.

SPEAKER_03 59:55

Um they're the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Oh I know. All right, well, I guess this is the last episode of Chris and Jen in the morning. If if that's the kind of slander you're gonna put out there. No, um, but the reason I say this is because as I was listening, an InSync song came up on my playlist, and like I immediately just fall into like knowing all the lyrics.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

I'm like I've never known all the lyrics to a song. It's can't really but go on.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

But it leads me to this thing that many people have asked this question time and time again. Why can I remember every song or every word from a song from you know 1998? But when I walk into a room or go to the grocery store or like create my, you know, mental to-do list, I can't ever like recall it. Like, what what is that about? Um, and the simple answer is this takes us back to where this all began. It is how we process it and the way that it starts to store in our brains because it's not just like this random to-do list or this random um act that we are trying to do. Our brain is actually sorting and saving and and putting this stuff away um based on everything we've talked about up to this point.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

To this in this this super memory. So why can't I remember lyrics properly? I just remember them the way that I think I want to remember them or I make them up. I mean, I think I think I have a pretty good memory.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Yeah. I yes. Well, we talked about my dreams, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

Like in how much I remember in every detail.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

I mean, I honestly I think it I think it res whatever resonates with you is what gets stored. Right. So if you're a lyrics person, it's the lyrics.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:51

If it's the song, it's the how the notes go, the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

The rhythm, um, the the you know, you probably will remember. Oh, I I really like when this singer, you know, does this um this chord progression or whatever. Like you probably that's the stuff that's well, really.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:09

I just um like often do it a little different than they do. Um, what's funny is um in high school, I uh middle school and high school, I went to like competition for, you know, whatever. And you know, you know, like you rarely get to sing the popular songs. You have to sing like the the the songs out of the books that you know, whatever. But um we it's we had this piano player at high school, his name was Tony, and um Tony like had perfect pitch. Um Tony was great, and he um he would say to me, like we would be singing a song, like I would sing a song from a um like that was popular on the radio or something, and um he would just be able to play it along because he would hear a song and he would just be able to play it on the piano. He was very gifted. And um he would be like, Jen, you uh it was not Jen at the time, but you get the picture. Like you always sing Jenny. You always sing this the like a third above. You're always a third, or it was a third above or a third below. Um, I think it was a third below. He's like, you always sing a third below what the singer sings it as on the radio. You're perfectly exactly, but one third below.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

But that's the part that like that's what like encodes in in what you are hearing and how you're processing it. So really it's just that like today's information hasn't stuck, like our brains aren't having to recall it. It it hasn't gotten sticky yet. Um, and so like our brains aren't bad at remembering, they're just incredibly efficient. And so whenever you add rhythm of um har harmonies, when you add different things that your entire body gets activated, it just stores it in a different way. And so that's why whenever you just hear a few notes, it can bring a song. Yeah. Thinking about someone can evoke uh lyrics. Like it's all of those things. I mean, how many times have you gone through your grocery list and like, okay, so maybe you need to get like peanut butter because you know, Ace loves peanut butter, but are you thinking like I mean that's my point. It's just like the things that we're attaching to it are very different.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, yeah. I mean, I remember the stuff on the grocery list though.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

All right, well, I have to create a list, otherwise I'm just like roaming around. And I can't go hungry because I really will.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

I do though, um all of a sudden just forget words, like words that you use in everyday sentences. You just weren't.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

I'm beginning to think you don't you don't believe in the power of word. So I make up my own lyrics.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

I mean, you know, um sometimes it can be fun. It's my favorite game, especially because it's a game I feel like I can win better than reconciliation.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

I absolutely do. Yes. You you win at that. However, I think we have it well documented uh in our travels that I know the singers.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

Yes. If I was on a trivia you know the singer and the song. If I was on trivia about music, you're a thousand percent on my team. And then you're just gonna answer all the questions. Like I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

We need ace for history things, because like we need that brain.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

Like So what do we need me for?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

You're a personality hire. You're gonna represent us.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

I'm a personality hire. All right. All right. Um, this is why I don't do trivia night, guys. Um, I do refuse to play the trivia games on my face.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

Which is shocking because to watch you like process things, like you really like you can Uh whenever like we do I do ask you like trivialite questions, I do see you go through the process of elimination to get to the answer.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

Like Yeah, but I I don't often feel confident in the answer if I get it right. And if I'm confident I often don't get it right. I mean, I feel like anyways, but I'm great at word games.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Just not always great with the words.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Right. But like word games. We digress. Word games I'll win. So we play those a lot. He's doesn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

You mean as a competitive person you're setting yourself up to win?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

A thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

All right. Well, that's all of the um fun neuroscience, psychological, and philosophical music things I have to bring for today.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

I loved it. This was so good. I mean, I do love music, and it's fun to explore like why is music such a good self-care tool? But then also, like, you know, I'm big on agency. How do we give ourselves um agency, put us put ourselves back into the driver's seat of like, how do I influence the way that I'm feeling? Um, so I like of course, the thing I connect most with from this conversation is like your you can use music to slow down your brain waves, your heart rate, your, you know, it it's not like you, it's not a snap your fingers one size fits all super fix for like, how do you um like not have to do the work of calming down? But it certainly can help. And um, and I love that. Um, it doesn't, music does not control our emotions, but it does nudge the systems that regulate them. And our brains are constantly being shaped by what we repeatedly expose them to. And so this makes choosing a good soundtrack such a powerful tool that you can use to your advantage as you seek a happier life and um supporting our emotional regulation, our focus, our connection, and healing. Um, it's one of the clearest examples of how something outside of us can temporarily tune in to what's happening inside of us. And um, and for all of those reasons, I think music is is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

That was so beautifully said.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

That's beautiful. It really was. I'm good with words. What can I say? Those are mine. I wrote that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

I will say there are people who who don't enjoy music in in full transparency. Like they don't, it's too much like processing for them, and that there's nothing wrong with anyone who is that way either. I think for for us, um, we have found um throughout getting to know one another over the past 10 plus years, like music has played an interesting part in our dynamic, and you've helped me see how I use music in a way that I don't think I was really aware of until you you made me aware of it. And um even being purposeful, like we've talked before about how like if you know you're gonna have a tough day, if you're feeling down, like what are things that agency that you speak of, what are things that we can do to set us up for success? And like now I'm really into audiobooks, but I know if I'm like feeling down or I'm I'm getting ready to gear up for a tough day, like I don't go for the audiobook, I go for music because it it will help.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:25

If we think about it, we used to get more music in our regular lives because we had to get in a car and drive in to work every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:33

Very true.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:34

Um, you know, you did have to drive into work because you didn't live in the city all the time. And um you know, commuting is different now. Like there's less opportunity for that. Um, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:49

So make room for it. Be purposeful about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:52

Yeah. I think, I mean, whenever I'm like, oh, I'm feeling kind of blah, I need to turn some music on. I haven't had enough of that in my life. I need to go see Chris. Chris, Chris, be my DJ.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

That's right. Always got a good track to play.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

You do, you really do.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

Well, we want to hear from you. What is your current favorite song? Um, do you have a song that you go to for inspiration or like you need to chill? And so, what's that song? Share it with us. We'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Favorite sad song that I should put on my playlist. Um, I would love to hear it. I would love to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

Not that it's a competition, but the saddest wins.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

What do they win, Chris? I don't know. A shout-out. Yeah. Um please share with us. We absolutely would love to hear from you. Let us know uh what your favorite songs are, let us know what your thoughts are about music, how music impacts you. Um, depending on what platform you're listening on, you can leave a comment. You can reach us via email at connect at Chris and Jenitm.com, or you can text us at 940-278-8129.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:56

And you can find us on all of the social platforms, um, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. We are Chris and JenITM. And we would love for you to like, follow, subscribe, comment, all of those things. Just help um, you know, uh our content find people who would likely um be inspired by or would love to help build this community with us. So please feel free to do all of those things.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:19

Yes. And until next time, be kind to yourself, to one another, and make it a great week. Bye, everybody.