Why Your Brain Needs Sleep: The Science of Rest

In this episode of Chris and Jen in the Morning, Chris and Jen dive deep into the vital neuroscience of sleep and expose the hidden dangers of sleep deprivation. Moving past dream analysis, the hosts explore what happens to the human brain during its nightly "maintenance shift". They break down the four essential stages of the sleep cycle—including deep sleep (N3) and REM sleep—illustrating how the brain systematically restores energy, consolidates memories, and flushes out dangerous metabolic waste.

The conversation also tackles the cultural lies of the "hustle mentality," debunking the myth that you can simply "catch up" on lost sleep over the weekend. Finally, they provide practical, science-backed tips to optimize your sleep hygiene—ranging from establishing consistent biological rhythms to managing evening blue light and bedroom temperatures.

Three Pivotal Points

• The Brain's Nightly Maintenance & Detox Cycle: Sleep is not passive rest; it is the only time the brain can perform critical functions like clearing out metabolic waste through the glymphatic wash cycle and hardcoding facts into long-term memory.
• The Illusion and Intoxication of Sleep Debt: Staying awake for 18 to 24 hours causes cognitive and motor impairments equivalent to being legally drunk. Furthermore, sleep-deprived individuals suffer from a "confidence illusion," making them dangerously unaware of how severely their performance has dropped.
• The Myth of 'Catching Up' on the Weekend: Lost deep sleep and damaged neural connections cannot be instantly reversed by sleeping in on Sunday. Shifting sleep schedules causes circadian misalignment, disrupting the delicate hormonal balance between melatonin and serotonin.

Website - www.chrisandjenitm.com

Email - connect@chrisandjenitm.com   

Voicemail and Text available at 940-278-8129

Merch - https://chris-and-jen-itm.printify.me/

Store - fabfavefinds.etsy.com

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and episode overview

02:02 Why sleep deprivation affects performance and awareness

03:59 Neuroscientific explanation of sleep's role in brain health

08:02 Personal stories about therapy and mental health challenges

12:00 The process and challenges of finding a good therapist

15:51 Family dynamics and personal history

20:05 Strategies for managing mental health and therapy

23:59 Humor and personal anecdotes about life and relationships

29:59 Tree and yard stories as metaphors for life challenges

35:49 Managing digital security and personal boundaries

40:05 Reflections on personal growth and self-awareness

02:31 The four stages of sleep and their characteristics

10:16 What happens during deep sleep and its benefits

15:43 The significance of REM sleep and dreaming

22:01 Effects of sleep deprivation on performance and health

29:59 Practical tips for better sleep hygiene

40:05 The connection between sleep and memory consolidation

50:11 Common sleep disorders and when to seek help

01:00:00 Conclusion and key takeaways for improving sleep

 resources

Sleep and Brain Health - Scientific Article - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6775480/

Finding the Right Therapist - Psychology Today - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us

Neuroscience of Sleep - Book - https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Matthew-Walker/dp/1501144316

The Ministry of Times by author - https://www.amazon.com/s?k=The+Ministry+of+Times+book

Sleep Cycle App - https://www.sleepcycle.com/

National Sleep Foundation - https://www.sleepfoundation.org/

The Sleep Revolution by Arianna Huffington - https://www.amazon.com/sleep-revolution-Arianna-Huffington/dp/0451499114

National Sleep Foundation - https://www.sleepfoundation.org/

Sleep Cycle App - https://www.sleepcycle.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We live in a world that constantly rewards the hustle. We proudly say, I'll sleep when I'm dead, or brag about surviving on just a few hours of rest, wearing our exhaustion like a badge of honor. But what if those badges are actually warning signs? Every single night, a hidden shift clocks in inside your mind. While you lie vulnerable in the dark, an intricate biological maintenance crew goes to work, repairing your cells, filing away your memories, and quite literally washing the waste out of your brain. When we cheat our sleep, we aren't just tired. We are actively compromising who we are. From emotional volatility to cognitive defects, that minor legal intoxicant, the cost of skipping rest is far higher than any deadline or late night screen time is worth. Your brain requires this time to heal, restore, and protect your future self. Today on Chris and Gen in the Morning, we're diving deep into what sleep means to you. How do we stop lying to ourselves about self-care and start giving our minds the biological reset they actually need? Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

Welcome to Chris and Jen in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Where self-care meets real life. I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

And I'm Jen.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Welcome to another episode where we're gonna like dig into something that we all do. Everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Yeah, well, hopefully. Sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

We should. Sleep. Sleep.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

Who doesn't love sleep?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Who doesn't? That's a good question. And the reason why toddlers?

SPEAKER_04 1:50

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Toddlers definitely sleep.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

No, they don't love it. Remember when you were little and you were like, I don't want to take a nap.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah. Now if someone gave me time to go take a nap, I would be all over that.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Can I please have a nap?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Right. However, I'm like a three-hour napper. I'm not like a 20-minute like cat nap and up and running. I need to.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

I mean, I will say it's a lot to turn the brain off so that you can actually nap. So you know that when I am able to take a nap, like I really needed it. Like my body was just like I cannot go on one more moment. Um But I'm I wouldn't I I would say sometimes I wake up from a nap feeling quite disoriented. I don't like to wake up in the evening. That's not fun. If I wake up and it's still like plenty of sunshine left in the day, fine. But I don't like waking up in the evening. That just feels like it's like when you go to a movie and you go in and it's light outside and you come out and it's dark outside and you're just like sad. I don't you don't have that feeling? I do.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

No, I totally get what you're saying though, because there are times like whenever you fall asleep and you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna take a take a quick nap. And then you wake up and the sun is down and you're like, Oh dear, what has happened? Like, did I oversleep? Do I have to go to am I supposed to be somewhere right now?

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Like, it can be a lot. I will say though, I almost exclusively nap on my husband's side of the bed. It's like a little guilty pleasure. Oh, like to call it my spot.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

And your nap spot.

SPEAKER_04 3:27

My nap spot, yeah. It's it's like somehow I'm getting away with something. So taking a little sleep on his side of the bed.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

All right.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

So sometimes I'll do that like as I get ready for bed and get into bed, I'll hop in on his side and then fall asleep. And he'll have to come in and wake me up and move me.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

I was just about to say, like, does he roll you over or is he like, hey, you're on my side of the bed, move over, lady?

SPEAKER_04 3:51

He does wake me up and he's like, come on.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Could you imagine he accidentally overrolled you? And there she goes.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

But sleep really is something we all do. Um of course, now that's not that's that's not an epiphany, but it is something we all need, and it is a part of self-care, the way we sleep, how we sleep. Um, it's it's it definitely impacts like the chemicals in our brain, how we think, what we're capable of, how we process information. So we want to talk about that today. Um we're not really gonna get into dreams.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Not really. No. No, but um we'll talk about like where they happen, but not like we're not into dreams analysis, no.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Although we have discussed my dreams many times.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

We have that's what honestly kind of like led me into this like wanting to learn a little bit more because the detail at which you remember your dreams is like fascinating to me. And so as I as I was thinking about things that we could talk about, and it was like, oh, well, like Jen dreams like a lot. Like, what is happening in our brains? What is like why are we asleep?

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Well, sometimes I feel as if my dreams are like the here and there pieces of me scattered across dimensions and timelines, and they're just syncing up to experience each other as if my dreams are like really this piece of me living temporarily in another piece of me on a different dimension or a different timeline. Is that not what's happening while I sleep?

SPEAKER_01 5:29

I mean, that's a very magical way of of looking at that.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

I'm I'm reading um the book The Ministry of Time, so that might be influencing my thoughts on this.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

I think it probably is a very good um connection that you just made there.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Might be. I mean, that's not that specifically isn't in the book, and if you haven't read the book, I would highly recommend it. It's a great book.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Um But you know, I mean, I do kind of sometimes wonder while I'm dreaming.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

Am I is that just different little dimensions or timelines that I'm like joining up with to experience?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Well, we're gonna dive into those things today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:13

What happens when you sleep? Why is it important? How to take care of ourselves. We will not be talking about time travel. We did an episode on that already. Check that out. So go check that out.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Um, but before we jump into this, we are building a community here at Chris and Gen in the morning, and we would love for you to be part of it. Um, you can like, follow, subscribe. We're on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, whatever your favorite podcast platform is. Um, that way you can follow us there. And whenever a new episode is released, it will be on your device for you.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Yeah. Come to our website at Chris and GenITM.com and um recommend a good book that we should read. We would love that.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

We love a good book. We don't promise we will discuss it though, because we are not a book club publisher.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

No, we're not. We're not. But we may have discussed a few really good ones. So um, so as we kick off all episodes, let's talk about gratitude. And I can go first. Um, my gratitude moment this week was just really easy to um to know what I wanted to be, what I wanted to talk about. And um so, Chris, you know, I think me well enough to know that home for me is like a really sacred place. Um I'd love to be the kind of person that like throws big parties at my house, but one, I'm not a great party thrower. And two, like my home is a place that I feel I can finally like relax and be at peace and not be stressed and like inside the walls of quote unquote home is um is somewhere that I hold sacred. And um, we got to come visit you uh over the Fourth of July holiday. And um your apartment is home for me. And I just have to say, like, I'm so incredibly grateful. I've mentioned before, like the sound of your apartment door um makes me feel warm inside every time I am at your apartment. I feel just so like relaxed and calm and at peace and home. And I don't feel that way um in other people's spaces or spaces that are not my own. Um, and so I just want to say thank you, not only for you know, always having us and welcoming us and doing all of the really fun stuff, but um, like I don't even know how to express the amount of gratitude I have for you in being a home space for me.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

So well, you know you're always welcome here. We love to have you. Um, and I mean my gratitude moment is obviously you and Ace as well. Like I have reflected back on our trip or your trip several times. Like we went.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

It was a trip for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Everyone was on the trip. Um, but it was so much fun.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

I brought the most.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

It was so like, yes, there were some things that we'd had not planned for.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Um, but we did a f we did a five-burrowed trip. We we did all five burrows in a weekend.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

We did, we really did.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Not in not intentionally, but we really did.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Correct. We our feet um landed in all five burrows, so and not just to like go around uh to catch another ferry to get back on over to the other. Like we really did, and it's like to me, it was like as I've been telling people, like, oh, I had friends in town, and being able to relive it, like when Frank got home and he was like, Oh, what what all did y'all get up to? And I like take him on the journey of all the things we did. And um, you know, it's just it's been fun to relive it. And um, I've thought about um the the play that everything goes wrong many times.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Like so fun, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

It was so good. Um that was so good.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Even our trip out to Staten Island, I mean, that was an experience. Like that was a that was just the whole journey. The the whole journey. That was like a that was a real memory.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

And yeah, I think it created some core memories. Um well, speaking of memories, like you know, sleep does play a part in that.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

And it does, yeah. Um, I'm sure I had a lot of dreams to process uh all the things that we did, um, which were a ton of fun. So thank you for hosting us and having us and always making me feel like my home is not just in one space, but all across the so many miles away, and yet a piece of home for me lives there.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

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SPEAKER_04 11:48

So why do we sleep?

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Well, so we've talked about like our brains, obviously, a lot this season and like the how we are um like the brain just does things. We don't really think about it, it just starts doing things. And the irony of all of this is like when you think about sleeping, it actually makes us vulnerable, right? Because it usually your eyes are closed, you're not my favorite way to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

I gotta tell you that.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

But it's like we spend nearly a third of our lives in a sleeping state. So, like, why have we not evolved to be these beings that don't need sleep?

SPEAKER_04 12:30

Really interesting question. I have never I've never thought about that.

unknown 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

We should get to work on that. I don't know.

unknown 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

So if you're working on that study, please reach out. We'd love, we'd love to see how we could participate.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

Well, s scientists actually believe that sleep exists because the brain simply cannot perform certain critical functions while we're awake. Like there are things that you you must happen in order for us to continue to exist in the way that we are. And um, they just cannot happen while you are also awake. So um let's talk about what some of those things are. It's this like um the analogy of like a night shift, right? During the day, your brain is open for business, and at night the maintenance crew needs to clock in. And so what's it doing while it's clocked in? What's the maintenance crew do for us?

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Well, I think what's interesting is like that analogy really is like what I think a lot of us think of a maintenance crew. They're coming in, they are replenishing supplies or cleaning things up. Um, maybe they are repairing and and helping things like connect. Um, but it's like our bodies do all of this stuff. It's restoring energy, it's repairing our cells, it's strengthening our memories, which I found very fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Um Yeah, it's actually when you file, like you process things that you've experienced and file them away into what what whatever part of your memory system they stay, your brain is like going through while you sleep and doing that.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Exactly. It helps regulate our emotions, which you and I have discussed this before. I don't know if we've ever done it on the podcast, but how like I need sleep because my I feel like my emotions very easily get away from me when I'm tired.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Turns out that's a common thing for many people.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

That's science. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Um, it supports the learning um process, which again, I I find fascinating. So um when when I was reading about that, it's just like, wow, well, our sleep really does do a lot.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

And it clears out metabolic waste, which is really interesting, right? I mean, you talk about like things like doing the sauna and um, you know, stretching and all of those things that help like remove waste from your body that gets created in just the process of living or exercising or all of those things. But um, but but sleeping is you know, you're that's why your metabolism actually slows as you sleep, and then your body is clearing out all of that that waste. So it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah. And I I knew that the brain did some of those things as we slept, but I didn't realize like at what um like how much it was doing. So it's like, okay, we're asleep, but are our brains really resting and sleeping?

SPEAKER_04 15:19

Um, but the fascinating part is that not all sleep is the same. So there's four stages of um of sleep. And approximately every 90 minutes, you cycle through those four stages. Um, and you repeat them maybe four to six times a night. Um and they're N1, N2, N3, and N4, um, or a REM sleep. Um, and so N1 and N2 are both light sleep. Um, and then N3 is like a deep sleep. It's like you can actually see your brain waves and how they change. Um, so this is like a slow wave sleep, and then you have rem sleep. Um, and so let's just talk through those three different uh stages of sleep and what happens.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Yeah. So I think um a really good way to think about this is we don't necessarily go through all of them in that same order. And some of them you go through quicker than others. So it's not like although it has like this very process feel to it, it's not necessarily all like done in a nice timely manner, order, and fashion because there are so many different things that go into effect. So, like in your N1 sleep, which is called that light sleep, um, it usually only lasts for a few minutes. If you have a device that um measures your sleeping, you will um usually see this as like your peaks and valleys as you're going through these stages. Um, and it's the process of which your body is going into sleep. It's going from being awake and going into this more relaxed state. Your muscles begin to kind of loosen, your heart rate slows down, your brain begins to do a little bit of changing.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

Have you ever wondered why they call it falling asleep? Have you ever like I don't know if this happens to you? It happens to me quite frequently, um, where you are like just moving into sleep and then you like jerk awake um from a feeling of like you're falling. Um, that's actually like a thing that happens. Um the the hypnic jerk. And um and um it's like when you start to actually fall into that deeper, um, that that deeper light sleep, but sometimes it will wake you back up. Or um sometimes I know as I am falling asleep, and I know this because my dear husband uh has told me about it, like I'll um start to like jerk my um like my limbs and stuff will just start to like shake or jerk um as you go from like this transition into sleep because your body is like just loosening all of those muscles and like letting go of sort of that control. So the more tense you are, the more likely that you are to actually experience those things.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Um just things that we get to experience.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Food food for thought.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

So then this N2. So if you consider N1 as like the falling asleep process, N2, which is also still considered light sleep, is where they have found that adults probably spend about half of the night in.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

I'm not sure that I that I I would be really surprised. I'd love to go through some kind of study that actually tells you what phase you're in. I don't think I'd spend much time in this light sleep place because I s I sleep in a way that is difficult to wake me.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Well, you know, maybe this is probably studies done. And there's always, you know, these outliers and it shocking that Jen would be an outlier.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

I mean, I don't know, right? I don't have any like evidence of it, but I'm just saying, like, I don't wake up um from, you know, much. And it does say in this outside sounds become less likely to wake you up. So maybe I just am a a a really present N2 stage sleeper, very present in my sleep.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

It could also be that your um like your surroundings as you are sleeping are really like um allow you to be in this state in a in a much better way than probably some people can. Like, um, so in this stage your body temperature begins to drop. And they do recommend like being in a cooler room when you sleep. And for us here in the city, like in our apartment, we don't have a um central A C correct. And so we depend on a window unit. So one side of the room like will be cooler than the other side of the room. And so there are times whenever like I don't sleep well because I feel like my temperature is constantly fluctuating.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Um, but this is also like where your heart rate slows and you really get into the um the breathing becomes more regular, and then you You need a bedjet. A tall one, a tall bedjet.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

I mean, I'm just saying you have a very tall bed.

unknown 20:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

But you do, you need a bedjet. Um, yeah, the body, body temperature drops, your heart rate slows down further, your breathing is more regular. Um, the brain produces sleep spindles and K complexes, which are bursts of activity thought to help protect sleep and support sleep and memory, which is really interesting, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah, especially whenever we'll get into this a little bit more. But when you think of all the things that the brain is doing, these different stages, these things happen in. And so that's why it's really important that we create that opportunity for us to truly go through these cycles, not just once, but multiple times, so that our brains can do what they need to do.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Now, these next few uh next two phases of sleep, I think, is where I think things get really interesting. Okay, all right. Um, so stage N3 or this deep sleep, slow wave sleep, not REM, but but the other kind of deep sleep um is your body's restoration phase. So we talked about sleep being necessary for your body to like restore. Um during deep sleep, the delta brain waves are dominant. Uh, growth hormone actually gets released. Maybe I don't spend a lot of time here because I'm I'm pretty short. Um, tissue repair occurs. The immune system is strengthened. So when they talk about like, you know, not sleeping enough and you get sicker, um, your immune system actually does repair while you're asleep. So um when you're this is why when you're sick, you do need more. More sleep so that your immune system can go to work and then start to repair and protect you more. The glymphatic system becomes especially active, which helps clear all the waste products from your brain, which, you know, we know is really important in, you know, self-care and mental health and you know, long-term health. And um memories, particularly facts and experiences, get consolidated and filed away into different memory filing systems in your brain. So this is the stage that's the hardest to wake up from. And if someone wakes you here, you're probably gonna feel really groggy for several minutes. It's also the stage of sleep where night terrors happen, sleep walking, sleep talking. Um, so um really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I think it would also be interesting to know from a um scientific stage, like when it comes to napping, like I feel like I heard once in college in one of the classes I was in, that you actually don't want to enter these cycles whenever you're napping. You want to stay in that higher um the one and two spaces um because for the sake of like trying to wake yourself up from this much deeper sleep, like you're breaking the cycle.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Yeah, maybe that's why I don't wake well from a nap. I get into that like get into that deeper sleep, and I'm like, I'm so tired. Um you so then REM sleep is the fourth phase, and that usually begins about 90 minutes after you fall asleep. Um and this is an hour and a half.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

It takes you an hour and a half to get to REM sleep.

SPEAKER_04 23:42

I mean, some people, I don't know if it takes me an hour and a half to get to REM. Like I'll just because this is where your dreaming happens, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, so the brain activity resembles that of wakefulness in this state. Um, and you it's called REM because of rapid eye movement. Um and so although your eyelids are closed, the it is observed that they are moving around as if we are taking in things, um, most of our muscles become temporarily paralyzed. Um this is what's preventing us from acting out our dreams.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Yeah, so if you have um somebody that you're sleeping next to who is like moving around or punching or whatever, um as some are known to do, uh, that might be in the stage three of sleep. Um, but then once you hit REM, like your muscles are you can't, you can't move them. Um, and that's because otherwise you, you know, you would be um like acting out what's happening in your in your dreams.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Well, and this is where it the brain activity is really interesting because um uh our our amygdala is actually highly active in this space. So as people have slept and they've done this research, they have found that our amygdalas are highly active. However, our prefrontal cortex is less active. And so that's the part that like helps regulate us um and kind of pull you back.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

You're like reasoning um and logic happens in that prefrontal cortex, but the amygdala is that um like fight or flights, uh like immediate uh sort of um rescue um uh part of the brain. And that's what's active during REM sleep. Um, dreams are really vivid, emotional, and story-like. See, this is where I just am like I feel like I spend like my dreams are just so vivid and story-like.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Truly storybook.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

As you know, um it was sometimes really odd, but often uh like I remember them in full detail. So they get stored in whatever part of my memory um I can recall. I must be very efficient at filing memory um during dreams. I don't know. Um, but the brain strengthens emotional memories and makes creative connections.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Um this is actually really interesting to me because I think a lot of like the world that we live in today very much so um calls for creative problem solving. And this is actually where some of those things happen. And to me, it's fascinating because like we're asleep and yet our brains are continuing to work on the issues throughout that we've carried with us throughout our day. Um, which is also why, like, whenever you wake up, you may feel like, oh, I have a great idea of how we can solve this problem. Um, but also another great argument of why it's really important to get enough sleep in your life.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Yeah. I mean, so I think, you know, two things come to mind when I think about that. So one, that phrase of, well, let's sleep on it. Um, like really, you your brain has a process that it goes and sifts through things and files them and like going through all these different stages. And sometimes you do wake up with better clarity. Um, also sometimes let's sleep on it just means like, well, let me give a a break between whatever initial reaction I'm having to something. So if you were in amygdala hijack on a topic, you just need time for it to like, you know, get some distance from it. But then, you know, you've slept overnight and you've had a chance to kind of process through it, um, and which is a part of what sleeping does. So that's really interesting. And then, you know, the other thing it makes me think about is, you know, that you're most creative in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Like, yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Um, here you've just you're closest to those thoughts of like how you have been reframing things inside of your mind subconsciously while you sleep. And um, and so sometimes you do have more clarity of thought um first thing in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

So well, and they actually do have they've done more studies around like when we are most productive and that morning time actually we our brains are you know sharp and ready and and all of the things. Okay, not first thing in the morning. You likely some some people need some get up and go.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

But they're some of us may be looking to be a part of the 5 a.m. club, and others of us may not find ourselves as productive.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

You're taking that as w like early morning. It's whenever you get up, it's the after you've had a good night's rest, and you so like whenever that is, for I would say a vast majority, it would be in the morning time.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Um, but that later in the afternoon, like around the one or two o'clock time, we become most unproductive because our brains at that point are like trying to get through that correct. And so they recommend you actually go out and take a walk or you go, like a lot of things that we here in America don't really do. Um to just kind of go release your brain and allow it to process and and step away for a little bit instead of continuing to be inundated with messages.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

What is so true? I mean, you think about like I even think about um I don't want to schedule important meetings right after lunch.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Lunch?

SPEAKER_04 29:12

People are like, you know, it takes them a minute to get right back into it. And so um that it it it's just neuroscience, guys. Um so what happens if we don't sleep enough? Um, I think this is part of the fun uh part for me. Um thinking about like, well, what's what's the alternative? What if I just don't sleep? Because you you might tend to think, well, if I just trim, you know, an hour off of my sleep here and an hour off there, you know, I'm burning the candle at both ends, I can get a little more done in the day or have a little bit of time for me, or, you know, uh I've got to get my workout in. So I'm just gonna get up an hour earlier, or all these things that we think are like self-care. Um, but when we're cutting in on the sleep, what happens is there's this thing called the confidence illusion. And um, when people are sleep deprived, their performance drops dramatically, but their awareness of how much it's dropped often doesn't. And surely you can relate to this. I know I can relate to this. Yes. Um, I think the the most like significant um like thing I can think of that relates to this is there were a couple of times when I had um COVID and I was just really extremely exhausted. I was very tired. And um that required much sleep of me. But I thought, well, like I generally do, I'm just gonna work through it. And um I was working fully thinking that I was making like sound decisions and doing things that like normally I'm pretty practical and I logical and I make sense. And you know, my boss and coworkers were like, you just need to go away. Um, like go get rest. And then after I got better and I came back, I looked at the things that I did and like emails I sent didn't make sense. Like they didn't even make logical sense. Um like I I did things that I then had to re fix and like redo um because the work just didn't make sense. But I had no idea at the time. Like I th I I thought that I was perform if it's like as if I was drunk or something, is is kind of what it was like, which was um like really crazy. And so when you are like that tired, not only does your performance drop, but you actually are like your awareness drops. And so you think you're doing just fine and you're really not.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah. I mean, it's you're powering through thinking like, oh, well, I'm still conscious. I'm like, this is a conscious choice I'm making, I'm doing this. But it's like, yeah, you may be going through the motions, but um, all those motions may not be correct.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Yeah. Um, so they've done studies um that show that driving tired is the equivalent of driving drunk. So staying awake for 18 hours, which you think 18 hours, oh, 18 hours, that's like a, you know, that's like a normal day. Um, no. Staying awake for 18 hours impairs cognitive and motor function to a level equal of 0.05 blood alcohol concentration. And once you hit 20 to 24 hours awake, the neurological impairment is equivalent to 0.08 to 0.1, which is the threshold for being legally intoxicated. So sleep deprivation physically shrinks brain activity in the prefrontal cortex. That's the part of the brain that helps you process things logically. Um that's our high-level decision-making center. And that leads to slowed hazard recognition, poor judgment. And then fatigue degrades your thalamus and your motor cortex coordination. So that significantly decreases things like your ability to break quickly. Um and then what starts to happen is micro sleeps. So um I've I've actually seen this happen in people where they're so tired that they start just kind of falling asleep involuntarily for four or five seconds. So have you ever been like driving on a road trip or something that you're trying to push through that super long and you like start catching yourself? Um, I mean, I hope that you haven't been there because it's dangerous and you should stop before that point. Um, but like that's that's your brain basically saying, we are shutting down. We have got to get a little bit of sleep. So it does this four to five second micro sleep thing. And um, it's like your brain's going temporary, temporarily off offline.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

Um, because it all of these processes that we've talked about happening while you sleep, like they need to start kicking in. The the trash can's full and the janitors need to come clean it out.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah. I mean, um, so my dad was diagnosed with sleep apnea, I think when I was like in like middle school or something, maybe even before that. But I remember like one of the things like in the questionnaire, this was like before, you know, sleep apnea was a huge thing. Um, one of the questions in the questionnaire is do you find yourself dozing as you're driving? And uh I was like, what a what a weird question. But yes, yes, he does do that. Like, because your body is not getting enough sleep in in that instance. And so it does like that stuff, it does show up in in your day today if you are not getting enough rest.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Yeah. Um, research shows that the amygdala becomes 60% more reactive after sleep deprivation, um, while the prefrontal cortex has a harder time regulating your emotional responses. So um, you know, I know that when I am extremely tired, I get snappy, I cry, um, my anxiety, which, you know, I already work on uh supporting myself to keep in check, becomes really big. Um, I misread situations. Um, everything feels super personal. The one of the biggest examples I can think of, this is um in 2016. 2016, Ace and I went to Ireland and um we took the red eye flight to Ireland on, you know, like Airlingus, the the airline of uh Ireland. And um the plane was, you know, like the seats, most of them were like half the seats, I think, were broken, didn't recline properly. Like this was not a uh like uh Emirates uh experience that, you know, I oh I guess I didn't take you on Emirates, but this was not this was not even a British Airways experience uh we had. This was this was a um It was tough.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

It was tough.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

This was the budget airline experience. And um it was a red eye from we had flown to New York. That was my first time in New York, very exciting. I probably was extremely exhausted because we tried to fit in literally everything there was to fit in um in one quick less than 24 hour visit. And then hop, we were off to uh to to Dublin. And um I think the flight was only like six hours or something, but all overnight. And I gotta tell you, my husband is we all know a saint, but I mean, like really a saint, because I was probably one of the most difficult people to be around on that flight. There was a woman who um, I mean, she was like spraying perfume, and you know how I am about like scents and stuff, and my back hurt because, you know, I have back problems. And even though I was in much different shape back then, you know, um, like especially when I get tired, my back starts to bother me more, and I couldn't lean back because the chair was broken. And so here I am, like sitting up straight, and um, I'm like leaning on Ace, who like such a saint. Um, but I can't fall asleep. I'm really cranky, I'm whining. Um, you know, and he's like, okay, when what is Jen Neach needs to be like kept cool, fed, and get enough sleep. This is how we keep our heads.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I've only checked two of those boxes today.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Um, so thank goodness he was there. I would not have made it on my own. Um, I also think this might be like why I ended up sitting down and crying outside of the um the security in London after they threw my toiletries away on our way to India because I was just all like sleep deprived and backwards because of the time zone change. We'll blame it on that, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah, for sure. I find um this one is super interesting for me because growing up I remember mm my mom used to tell me a lot, like uh my nickname was BA, bad attitude. Um, because when I got tired, there was no making me happy. Like my mom used to say, like, you would come in the house and the walls were were crooked, the toilet wasn't on the uh sitting correctly, like just all this crazy stuff. You would just be mad about everything. Well, interestingly, as I have gotten older, I don't find like I get mad about it. I just get like overly like emotional, like where I have a real hard time like reining myself in and finding that like equilibrium. So one time Frank and I were on vacation, I had to take a work call, and it had been like a lot, like there were just a lot of things that were happening. And so I remember I got off this call. It was the last one I had to do, and um, Frank was like folding stuff and put putting it in our bags because we were off to like the next leg of our trip. And um, I just started crying, like I just burst out crying. He's like, Oh my god, what's wrong? What's wrong? Are you okay? What's happening? And I just was like trying to gather myself. Um, and I finally just said I was like, I'm exhausted. I am exhausted. I need to sleep, I need to, and so luckily, like we got packed. He drove us to like the next place we were going to. Yeah. We called it an early night, and I I slept.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

Like, isn't it funny how we take vacation and we end up just exhausting ourselves on vacation? Isn't that like ironic? Because like I I know many times I've come to New York, I fell asleep in juniors at the table. Um, I fell asleep at Wicked. I mean, I've seen it a number of times. It is not like a testament to Wicked. I love it. Um, in fact, this was like the opening, the reopening weekend after COVID.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

But that's right.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

Like I was just so exhausted um that I I literally couldn't keep myself awake. Um, and so here we are like taking these vacations like as part of self-care, but like you might just need to take a vacation to your bed.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Right. Well, sometimes we do. We we push ourselves too far. Yeah. Um, and I think and and maybe it's like, oh, I don't want to miss it. Oh, I have like, especially if you're traveling somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 40:25

I have a lot of FOMO, for sure. But I do think this is why I like to take my vacation to the beach, where literally you don't do anything. You just hang at the beach.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Well, and that's like your main attraction is the beach, and you're usually staying fairly close to the city.

SPEAKER_04 40:44

You do when you go. And I'm like, what do you mean? What do I do? I go to the beach. I get I wake up when I wake up, I drink my coffee while my husband sets up our beach paradise down at the beach with the tent and the covering and the fans and all the things. And then I trap myself down to the beach and I chill there, take a couple walks up and down the beach, find my pretty shells. He brings me lunch. I continue to chill, get in the water a little, then remember that it's got fish in it and get back out.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yep, yep. Sounds right.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

Um, and then I watch the sunset over the ocean, and it's you know, every night the most beautiful thing I see.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

And then I go back in, take a shower, eat the dinner he's made for me, go to bed. And then I get up and do it all again.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Yep, raise and repeat.

SPEAKER_04 41:39

It's the most restful, relaxing, like the only time we do things is when it rains. Because why wouldn't I want to do that? But like you do, you just need sometimes time to go like rest and repair and take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yep. Well, so interestingly, you brought this um point around um food, like craving craving bad foods when we're tired. I had never heard of this before.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

So this is but when you think about it, oh, it makes total. Doesn't it relate? Yes. Can't you think of can't doesn't it feel relatable? Like, why do donuts sound so good in the morning after you've had a terrible night's sleep? But broccoli does not seem to be the thing you crave.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Okay. I just need a point of clarification here. Number one, a donut any time of day, whether I'm well rested or not, I will always think is a good choice. And number two, if you're asking me to compare broccoli to a donut, that though they aren't even in the same universe in my mind.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

I will say I don't typically um crave donuts because I know that um if you don't end well for you. If I start the day with a with a with sugar, a sugary carb. Um I go on a trip.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

It's not a good trip. And it's a trip nobody wants to go on.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

It's not a good trip for anyone. Um, but um, you know, why do you if you haven't been sleeping enough? Um, or this actually I experience is more like I'm really tired, but I can't fall asleep, or we're going, going, going, right? And I'm just really tired. Like, why does that cake feel so good at the end of the day when in the morning after I woke up rested, I like I didn't want that. Um, like I could resist that. It's because your body is actually craving the hormones that those things produce, um, so that or the like the fats, so that it can it can actually burn those um like types of calories instead of sleeping. So it gives you energy. It's basically what I'm ineloquently trying to say. Also, your I'm hungry hormone goes up when you don't get enough sleep, and your I'm full for hormone. Hormone goes down. So leptin is the hormone that gets excreted in your body when to tell your body like you're full. And you have less of that when you are sleep deprived. And um ghrelin is, I think I'm saying that right, ghrelin, ghrelin is the the hormone that tells you that hey, you're hungry, you need to eat. Um, and so that hormone increases when you're really tired. And the reason that your body is increasing that hormone when you're tired is because it's telling you like you need to get calories for me to burn. And your body also wants those high fat, high sugar foods because those it can very quickly turn into like energy. Yeah. Um, because you're tired and you don't have any reserves of energy, right? I mean, you may have plenty of reserves, but you don't have any reserves that can be quickly converted.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Processed, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:58

And so your body's just trying to very efficiently turn in, turn uh food into energy to keep you moving. Um, so it's it like it's it it all comes back to the science of it all.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

I was just about to say it's so interesting that like of all the things like that we just talked about, our our ability to regulate our emotions, our ability to actually function um amongst the living, amongst the awake.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

Yeah. Well, I mean, Ace um and I have been on many road trips, many long road trips.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

I know y'all drove all the way here one time.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

Yeah, he's great at that. And um, and it's something that he's always said to me is like, well, if I'm not gonna sleep, then I I need to stop and get something to eat so that I can continue being awake and moving on because I'm gonna have I need to have some kind of energy to keep me moving. Um, I think it's also like um the whole analogy behind the Snickers commercials, you know?

SPEAKER_01 46:04

You're not you when you're hungry.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Yeah, but like um, you know, you just need a little, you need a little something that's got that the the fat and the sugar. And, you know, with fat and sugar, I think you should always have protein, otherwise you'd like tend to like spike. Um, but you know, it's it's it's science. It's that's your body craving things in lieu of sleep. If you're not gonna sleep, you need to give me something to burn.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah. Um like we become worse versions of ourself without really even realizing that. And not like worse in the in the like a negative type sense, but like worse in the we have a hard time starting to regulate all of those things.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

Yeah. And then I mean, gosh, you start eating the sugar without the the other stuff, and then you're like on a blood sugar trip. And I mean, you know, it all goes, it all just goes south. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

So sleep is important.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

Sleep is important. Um, it also builds memories. So we talked a little bit about this, but the different stages of sleep contribute to building memories in different ways. So when you're in this N3 deep sleep, um, that's like facts and learning and vocabulary and long-term memory storage. And when you're in REM sleep, um, that's where the creativity, emotional processing, pattern recognition, problem solving. I have actually like had challenges at work that I've been trying to work through that I've literally like solved in my sleep. I there was like a a report thing that we couldn't get to work, and I was like dreaming about it for like three nights in a row, and then like I dreamed through the solution and woke up and went into work, and I was like, I know how to fix this now and fixed it.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Well, well, and that's like that that goes to that um um problem solving actually creativity as well, because it's your brain being able to make those connections that maybe you in your waking time, like your brain can't process that much information all coming at you one time. I love the analogy of this. It's like think of the deep sleep as like saving the files while um our REM sleep really organizes it into nice neat folders and can sometimes actually create entirely new connections for us. So it so it is really important that we um get that sleep. Interestingly enough, whenever we are in um like uh states um like where we're not really having to think super complicated. So for me, it's like doing laundry. To me, my mind can wander, um, people have shower thoughts, like all of these things it moves your brain into a different processing way, and it also allows you to creative problem solving, um, pattern recognition, like all of that stuff, your brain can actually move into those while you are awake. But it's important that it's not like an overly stimulated thing that you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Yeah. I mean, anyone ever told you that your mind is dirty?

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Yes, but I don't think because they're seeing the cobwebs in the corners.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

Well, the next time they say it, you actually can say, you know, we all have dirty minds because your brain creates waste products just by being alive. I'm not sure if that'll make you the most popular person in the room, but look, fun facts.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

That's what we're bringing to you, folks. Fun facts.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

Fun facts. Um, during sleep um or deep sleep, brain cells actually shrink slightly. And it creates these tiny little channels that allow your cerebrospinal fluid to rush through and flush out all that metabolic waste inside of your brain, um, which is like really interesting. It's like a dishwasher cycle for your brain.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

I don't know if I ever learned this in school. And if I did, I did not retain it. You were like glazed over.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

This is a lot of things. This probably was right after lunch. Did you have science right after lunch?

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Probably who knows? I can't remember that far back.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

Um, when you uh keep cheating yourself out of the deep sleep, it's like you're just you never take the trash out.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

That's so true.

SPEAKER_04 50:14

You know, it's you they say um, you know, a clean house is a is a clean mind. Um, well, not if it's at the expense of sleep.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Right. Well, and I do think that that's interesting. Like, I knew that sleep was important. I we've all heard the saying, like, oh, well, I guess I gave those brain cells up for something else. But like it apparently really does happen. Like these things, our brain is actually cleaning itself and and helping like refine it and make it sharper, better, but you have to get enough sleep for to allow it to do those things.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

It is also sometimes why you start to feel really tired after you've experienced an overwhelming situation or something that is emotionally overwhelming. Your brain needs you to sleep so that it can start clearing up what's going on inside of your mind and um like taking out the trash and making space for what you need to process. So um researchers are studying whether reduced sleep over many years may actually contribute to buildup of proteins associated with conditions like Alzheimer's disease. Um, and it's an active area of research, but it does underscore how important deep sleep appears to be for your long-term brain health. And like this is one of those things that if you ignore it and then uh when it starts to impact you, decide, okay, now it's time, like it might, it might be too late to prevent some of those things. So we definitely know that getting enough sleep now is important to, you know, your future self. Um 10, 20 years from now.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Well, and I think that's what's really important and why I wanted us to talk about this is like I was looking into some things because like wow, like I did not realize how much our brains were doing while we slept, and yet how easily we do allow things to encroach on our sleeping time. Like, oh, I want to wake up to get to that workout class. Okay, let's be clear. I doubt I have ever used that phrase.

SPEAKER_04 52:17

We really gotta get up early to get to that workout class.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

More like, oh, I'll get up early and you know, respond to emails or, you know, do whatever it is, like insert whatever. But like that actually can be a disservice for you in the long term.

SPEAKER_04 52:35

Oh, it is, it totally is. And the, you know, you hear people say, well, I'm just gonna catch up on sleep over the weekend. You actually never really fully catch up on sleep because the brain cleansing mechanisms and the cellular restoration, they're time-locked to the circadian biology. It's not just like this cumulative hourly deficit clock that you can then like sleep off later.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Catch up on.

SPEAKER_04 52:59

Uh-huh. And so neuroscience actually shows that lost deep sleep and damaged neural connections cannot be instantly reversed by simply sleeping longer later. Yeah. The brain's inability to simply bank or recover lost rest. Um, like it's it's there's several neuroscientific realities behind it. So one of them is lymphatic wash cycle. Um, sounds a lot like the dishwasher analogy, right? But the gymphatic wash cycle is what happens during deep non-REM sleep. So that N3.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

N3, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

Uh-huh. Um, it's where the brain actively flushes out that metabolic waste we talked about, like the amyloid beta is one of those um those forms of metabolic waste via pulses of that cerebrospinal fluid. And missing the window means accumulated cellular debris that can cause immediate attention lapses. So your brain can't compress this multi-hour nightly maintenance routine into single sleep-in sessions. Um, because remember, we talked about like those cycles of sleep occurring in these like 90-minute windows. So you if you just like sleep in an extra hour, like you're not getting enough of those um gymphatic wash cycles to happen.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Well, it's interesting because they say that you should have like four to six of those in any like nighttime session or you know, sleep sessions. Um, so that's interesting that if you if you have to go through it enough times for it to like really clean.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

So if you put in a dirty um plate into the quick rinse uh cycle, but I wish I had a super wash cycle, but apparently like that's we're we haven't figured that out yet. Um the so it talked about circadian rhythm. Circadian misalignment is something that happens when you try and catch up on sleep. Um, your body actually, whether you have, you know, dancing rhythm or not, your body is actually tied to rhythm. And and we we think about like all things in our world that surrounds us have some sort of rhythm to them. The the moon and the tides are connected together, right? Everything is going on a pulse or a rhythm. Your heart beats at a rhythm or a pulse. Um, so this circadian misalignment happens uh when you try and you make up for sleep. And so sleeping in on the weekends to compensate for your work week throws off that master biological clock. And um if you want the technical term for that, that's the superchiasmatic nucleus. I don't know if I yes. The suprachiasmatic nucleus. Just throw that one out at the dinner table.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

I don't think I learned that in school.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

Um, but your body is designed to release specific hormones like melatonin and its opposite serotonin at set times. And so shifting your sleep schedule actually degrades your overall quality. So what happens with melatonin and serotonin, those balancing hormones is the melatonin gets uh released. Um, so like you're producing it and it gets released so that you sleep. And then while you sleep, you're building serotonin. And um, then that serotonin helps you feel, you know, joy and happiness and like keeps you from being depressed. And then while you have enough serotonin, you're producing melatonin. And so without the serotonin, you cannot produce melatonin. Without the melatonin, you cannot produce serotonin. Um, and that's where the imbalance happens. And so when you, you know, don't keep a regular rhythm of that, all of your hormones get disrupted. So, you know, gosh, I mean, we wonder why such a high percentage of people are on medication to help balance their melatonin or serotonin. Um, not saying that this is the only thing that's going on, but certainly we do not support a um a consistent sleep cycle. And so how can your body regulate itself? It just can't.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Well, and I mean, unfortunately, we live in a society where it's like, okay, here, pop this, take this, it'll help. And so I know that uh um recently, I would say within the last decade, like taking melatonin has actually become a very popular thing to do. And they're actually doing studies and research to see like how that is impacting us, our our body's ability to actually produce those on its own.

SPEAKER_04 57:41

Because if we're there, there are actually supplements you can take that help you produce um the right amount of melatonin as opposed to just being a melatonin replacement. And I know there's a lot of search research behind that as well, that obviously is not supported by big pharma. But um, you know, I and I'm not saying there aren't other reasons for those hormones to be off because there absolutely are, but just you know, how massive the epidemic is of individuals who aren't getting enough balance there in their serotonin and a melatonin, and that absolutely plays a role.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Um feels like a good time to remind people we are not doctors, we are not psychologists, we are just living our lives.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

Yeah, just little things that you learn and pick up in our own, in our own journey. Um, but you you actually don't have to be a doctor to educate yourself on the hormones that are within your own body. So I think that's one of the most important like things that we can remember is that we have agency of our own selves and we should be asking those critical questions so we can find the right way to care for ourselves. Um, so one of the other things that happens um is there's this irreversible cellular pruning. Um, so prolonged sleep deprivation causes microglial cells to become hyperactive. And that actually leads them to break down healthy synapses, those like neural connections that happen, instead of just the damaged ones. And um, this degenerative process, which mimics early stage Alzheimer's, actually cannot be undone just by getting like 12 hours of sleep on a Sunday. Um, so if you if you don't sleep enough and you're not getting enough sleep, then your your healthy synapses are getting damaged. And that takes like time to repair. Um and it can't just be like in a in an extra, you know, few hours of sleep on the weekend. Um, I think that's really, really important to note. Um, that like just living a lifestyle where you say, well, I'll sleep like four hours during the week and you know, eight hours on the weekend, like catch up on the weekend. This is not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

Well, it's also interesting that like they've put those connections together with the um research around Alzheimer's. Like that does lead one to believe there could be some connections.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

Absolutely. Um, and then there's receptors, receptor sensitization. Tried to say that three times fast. Um, so sleep debt builds up this um adenosine in the brain, and that creates this sleep pressure. And while a long nap or an early bedtime can reduce this pressure, the structural synaptic brain damage to brain regions responsible for memory, like your hippocampus and emotional regulation, like your amygdala, require consistent long-term restorative rest. And so if you're not getting that consistent long-term restorative rest, your amygdala and your hippocampus um just aren't operating as well. So they talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

It's like I'm not regulating.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:53

Yeah, they talk about like cram sessions for tests and stuff. And um, like I don't know if you were ever told this, but I recall getting um advice from from my professors, like you, you actually versus a cram session before a big test, the best thing you can do for yourself is just sleep because um you you actually physically cannot tap into your memory recall as well when you are sleep deprived.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Correct. Well, that goes back to like needing to be in that deep sleep N3 stage where the things are being hard-coded, the facts, the learning, the vocabulary, all the things you're gonna need to be able to recall versus just putting it into like a temporary storage that, you know, you're one inconvenience away from losing it all.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:39

Yeah. So um procrastinators beware. If you um, maybe like me, tend to wait until the very last minute to do something because there is nothing quite so motivating as a deadline, uh, you know, just rapidly approaching. Um if it is something that's like cramming for a test, you actually have to give yourself the time after you study to sleep properly so that you can file all those things you learned, um, which is really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

Yeah. So we've talked so now like sleep is we know sleep is very important, all of the different cycles and what's happening within our brains and and the negative things that can come out of it. But I also find it really interesting um these self-care lies that we tell ourselves. Like um, like um, you know, we have been known as a society here in the US to celebrate people who are willing to sacrifice things. And sleep is one of the things that a lot of people will sacrifice in in hopes of like getting something done. Yeah, they kind of like it's rewarding that right. It's rewarding that hustle mentality. And it's like, but at what at what risk or damage are you doing that? So things like saying, Oh, I'll you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead. Like I know I've said that before.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:01

Oh, or the people that brag about how they only need like five hours of sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

Yeah. Um, yeah, what if those aren't really badges of honor, but they're warning signs?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

Right. And I do think like there are there has been studies done that show like not everyone needs the same amount of sleep because we do go through those cycles differently, like each person, the environment around us, all of that stuff. But it's it's important that we realize we need enough sleep that allows those four to six cycles for our brains to truly be optimized to work at the best they can.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:39

Yeah. Just remind yourself every time in your head you're going, Oh, sleep when I'm dead, oh, I only need five hours of sleep. Follow those up with like, oh, I never charge my phone, or oh, I don't take out the trash. I just let it pile up.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

Right. Like, is that a r is that realistic? Do you really let those things happen? Like, how many of us really walk around with an uncharged phone?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

Okay, I kind of do because like my I would, except for my husband, make sure that my phone is always charged. Um, because you know, he is amazing and I think has a fear of me not being able to get a hold of him in in times of need.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

Um but but it's the same, like it's the same thing. We wouldn't do that stuff. We don't let the trash pile up. We don't, we don't walk around with uncharged cell phones. Um and so our brains, we should be thinking about them in that manner as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

Yeah. Okay. So what if I'm trying to get better sleep and I just like can't? Um, what do I do? And I guess the first thing I would do is ask, like, how much are you really trying? Are you it's it's like how I um have shared before early in my career, I kept searching for the secret to work-life balance. And it wasn't until, you know, much later that I realized I actually wasn't searching for work-life balance. What I was searching for was some way or excuse to have it all and not have to give anything up, no trade-offs, um, which is very much part of my personality. I just want it all. I I have said how many times I don't I'm I don't like the word or I want the word and. Um, like I don't want to have to make a trade-off. I don't want to have to give it up. But when it comes down to sleep, you you really are giving up a lot if you don't choose sleep. So um I think step one, as we always say, is awareness. Um and you need to hold yourself accountable for am I really trying to prioritize sleep or am I not understanding the cost of giving up sleep, which is I think what we have spent most of this conversation trying to talk about, because many people don't understand the cost. Um, I don't think you and I have understood the cost of giving up sleep. Um, so that's step one. And then I would say um my favorite next step is mindfulness. Um, so you can start by telling yourself you want to get more sleep. Um, and I know that sounds really like. You know, ridiculous. But I mean, sometimes it is starting with saying, I actually do want sleep. Um, and so sometimes I just have to tell myself, I really, I do want to get sleep. And it helps my body kind of get that cue of like, oh yes, we do want to sleep. Tell yourself it's time to relax. You know, you are in charge of yourself as much as sometimes we'd like to think we're not. Um, and um, there are things like body scan meditation or progressive muscle relaxation where you start to focus on um like an area of your body, maybe it's your toes, maybe it's your head, maybe it's somewhere in the middle. And you just start to kind of go muscle by muscle and say, okay, I'm gonna let go of this now. I'm gonna, oh, I'm holding tension here. I'm gonna relax this now. And that as you're lying down, don't do it when you're standing up. That doesn't work. I've tried. Um when you don't do progressive muscle relaxation when you're on a walk, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

You may be trying to do too many things at one time.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:00

It's not efficient. It's just it's just ignorant.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

Um so I think after that one, a good thing, and you talked about a little bit earlier about how like everything in the world seems to operate at its own rhythm at its own beat. And we've talked a lot about how our brains appreciate a pattern. They appreciate the predictability of things. So setting a consistent bedtime is really important because of those circadian circadian rhythms. Um, that is a great way to regulate that and to help your body begin to understand, like, oh, we're moving into bedtime. And if it's consistent at that time, your body gets into that rhythm.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:40

Yeah, one of the things that best supports your circadian rhythm is morning sunlight. Um, this was some of the best advice I got before traveling uh overseas 11 and a half hours into the future, um, uh where night is day and day is night. Some of the best advice I was given was when you wake up in the morning, immediately get sun on your head. Get a room that has a balcony, go outside, do whatever it is you need to do, but make sure you get sun on your head in the morning because that will help you adjust to the circadian rhythm. Um, and so sometimes as I have my coffee, I will go wander outside to look at the birds in the morning and just kind of help get some sun on my head. Um, it's easy, especially in the summer in Texas, to avoid being outside. Um it's important because um it helps anchor your body clock in, oh, this is morning time.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

Yeah. And I mean, we have Ollie, so he gets me up and at like 6:30, 7 o'clock and I immediately get the sun. But I do wonder like if people who are who do have pets who require to like be put on a leash and taken for walks, if you know what that does for the body.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:53

Yeah. You know people who brag about being able to have caffeine at any time of the day and they sleep well anyways.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

Yeah, that's probably not great.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:01

I mean, I don't know how well rested they really are, but it definitely impacts sleep. And you know, you may be able to sleep, but the quality of your sleep might be not as good.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

Um, and so you need to limit your caffeine later in the day. Um, so the half-life of caffeine averages about five to seven hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

So you should avoid caffeine five to seven hours before you're trying to go to bed.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:24

Well, that's that's the half-life of it, right? So like I think just thinking about how long it takes for it to cut in half. Um so you know, just thinking about how much you're taking in and be mindful. I definitely try not to have coffee in the afternoon because I know that for me it sticks around and makes it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

It's not setting you up for success later on in the day.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:47

Makes an impact. Um and then that impacts my husband.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

And we don't upset the ace.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:53

We don't. We don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

Um, the next one is my favorite, a cool bedroom. They uh research shows a pro an approximately bedroom temperature of 60 to 67 degrees Fahrenheit. That's 15 to 19 uh degrees Celsius, is often recommended for adults.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:08

And that's because wow, that feels cold.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

Love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:14

60 is really cold. Okay. Ace, I know you're listening and you're gonna re-listen to this a number of times as you edit, but 60 is too expensive for the Texas heat.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

It's true. It really does get expensive, but I think it's understanding that as our bodies are going through these cycles, our temperatures are also going up and down. So trying to get it to where the room is at a consistent temperature to allow your body to um to regulate in a in the most best way. And uh for me personally, this is a huge thing because if I am too hot, I wake up and I am uncomfortable and it takes me a long time to get back to sleep because I have to get cooled off.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:58

So if you're still doing like flannel or jersey uh sheets uh in the summer in a warm climate, like the that would be the first thing that I would start to.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

But that's only if you're not getting good sleep.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:15

I mean, maybe you just like to sleep hot. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:19

Um look, what we are talking about is is the averages, right? It's not the there are outliers and everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:27

That's true. Um reduce evening light, especially blue light. Oh, what's blue light, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

It's our phones, it's our TVs, it's the screens in our lives.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:38

Yes, all the screens of our lives. So goes the hourglass through the sands of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:44

Yes. Um I did watch that soap for a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

Um it's stuck with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:51

Well, I mean, the thing is you could pick it up years later, and I think it's the same story over and over again, or still happening. But um, but really the blue light does. I I hate I hate to acknowledge this one because I like to read on my phone and all these things, but it does actually reduce the the quality of sleep. Um, exercise regularly.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

Well, and I think this goes back to um again, that rhythm, our bodies like store energy. Like that's what we do. We eat, we we drink, like all of these things, and they create energy within us. And so it's important that even if it's just like a walk around the block, if it's a hard workout session, like you need to exert energy because your body is storing it up just through our daily existence.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:41

Just don't do it like right before bed because that gets your heart rate too elevated and it needs time sometimes to come back down. And so then you're you're not gonna sleep well if you do that right before you go to bed. So if you're like, I'm not a morning person, so I'm gonna work, I'm gonna work super late, and then I'm gonna hit the gym and come home, take a shower, go to bed, probably not not the best routine. Avoid alcohol as a sleep aid. Oh my gosh. How many times have you had um, you know, that glass or bottle of wine, and then you fall asleep really well, and then you wake up and you cannot get back to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

Yeah. I I think this is like where it's really important to understand those different levels of sleeping because it may help you fall asleep faster, but it reduces the sleep quality, especially within that REM cycle. So it's really important that you are mindful of the beverages and food you are consuming before you try to go lay your head on that pillow each night.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:38

Yes. Um, and you know, clear your brain. Um, that's another way than done. To to help you. So, okay, how do you clear your brain? If you're like, okay, thanks, thanks, thanks. That was really helpful. Um, a brain dump on paper. Might that be like journaling?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

Uh so you're we're just relabeling it something.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:00

Uh huh. Um, it gives you your prefrontal cortex permission to stop rehearsing tomorrow's to-do list, that argument you're having with somebody. Yeah. You know, like you get it out. Um, and that way you can move on. Um, and so it reduces your nighttime rumination. Um, people have given the advice of like, um, don't go to bed angry. They've also given the advice of like, oh, just sleep on it and you'll feel better in the morning. Like, I think you have to figure out what the right um like balance is for you because sometimes if you're really tired, you're not in a position to argue fair. Um, so you need to be careful about who you're expressing these things to. But also, like, I can absolutely note, particularly early on in my marriage, when you know, things were just a little more intense for us. We were younger, we're kids just learning how to fight fair. Um, and you would just be so angry um about something, like irrationally so, and you'd be so tired. And then you would fall asleep and you'd wake up in the morning and like it really you'd feel ridiculous about it. Um, like it really wasn't as big of a deal. The world wasn't ending after all.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:15

Yeah. But I also do think like it depends on like You followed the tells wrong. I do think though, like these are all things that are very personal, and like as you uh however you find like you process things, because I know there was a time where Frank and I were not together, and I remember I would have nightmares. Like my brain trying to process through that stuff was like it it interrupted my sleep. And so it's like you have to find the the balance, like you said, of being true to yourself while also trying to like set yourself up for success because it's it's a fine balance and that's why a journal is sometimes helpful.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:56

You can like work through it a little and then put it down and go, I'm gonna pick this back up later. I also like will just say, I didn't understand this before. Um, and so it's something I've had to really work on. Um, but like it is a skill to be able to set something aside and come back to it later. That is not just a personality trait, that is a muscle that you build. And um it is something that if you are not good at doing, you actually can get better at doing, but you must go through the hard part in order to build the muscle. So um if it feels uncomfortable, then it probably means you're in the middle of growth.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:38

Um so that's why it's important. Have a piece of paper and a pen next to your bed.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:43

And like tell yourself what's the worst thing that could happen. And and like I think that's a good way of putting into context like how you make the decision. Um and then reserve your bed for sleep. Oh my goodness. I used to sit with my laptop in bed and work. What a dumb idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

I think that's relatable. I also uh I mean, I remember having a TV in my room and watching TV from bed.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:09

We have a TV in our room. We never turn it on ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:11

Right. Same. That's how we are too. We have a TV in our room. The only time we turn it on is if like one of us is in the other room trying, like if I'm working and I don't even know how to turn it on.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:21

Um, like honestly, I don't like I'm not sure where anything is. I don't know how to turn it on. I think the last time I watched TV on it um might have been like when I was on bed rest after like having a procedure. So um yeah, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:35

Um but the power of not like allowing your bed to be a space where it is just meant to sleep, um, because your brain does begin to associate um things. And interestingly enough, like you and I had this conversation about like our recording spaces whenever we started recording the podcast. We wanted to be mindful about that so that we could be in the right state of mind. And so it's the same for bed. Like when you go to your bed, your body should be winding down and saying, We're gonna fall asleep, not oh, we're gonna catch up on insert whatever show you want to watch as you're going to bed.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:11

I do I will say, and uh maybe this is part of why I sleep so terribly, one of the reasons in when I travel, like I tend to watch um uh like TV shows or something. Um, when I am uh traveling and away from Ace, never when I'm with him, but when I'm away from him and I'm like trying to fall asleep, it's a worst idea because then I'm like, it's two o'clock in the morning. I'm like, why am I still watching this show? Um, like I'm never gonna fall asleep like this. So um, but when I'm at home, I will say I do read. Um and I do use my phone. I put it on the dark mode, but I do read from my phone to fall asleep. And I actually find that it's if I'm reading a good book, um, it will help me like set aside whatever it is that I'm thinking about so that I can fall asleep. Um, but also if you're reading a book that like has a level of intensity about it, then sometimes, you know, I'm like, oh yeah, it's a page turner and I can't fall asleep. So like sometimes it can have the opposite effect. Yeah. Just be mindful about those things. Certainly don't doom scroll if you're struggling to sleep while you're in bed, because it's not gonna help you.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

Yeah, I would say whatever you can do. I try to set up like a bedtime routine. So like when I am getting ready for bed, I take a shower before I go to bed because, you know, I've been about the city. Yes. And I don't want to take that to bed with me. So like I'll take a shower, I will turn on my audio book. Um, sometimes, sometimes not. And then whenever I come when I go to bed, like I truly try to not touch any more technology. I try to lay there. There are times where it's like that roomating does happen, and I'm like, oh, I need to be sure I do this. Oh, I didn't do this. And so what I because I I read and heard like keeping a piece of paper by the side of bed to write that stuff down so that your brain will let it go. Like once it is once it has been captured, the qu the quicker your brain is to say, okay, we're not gonna forget it because it's been captured sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:19

Yes, except that I love to write things down on a list and never come back to them. It feels so good to let them go. And then they bite me later because it didn't do it. Um, but I will say distraction is a great technique for me, like to then go read something that's distracting uh if from all of those like ruminating thoughts. Um I I do find that helpful. I I also think like um there are certain like lotions and stuff that are are scented in a calm way. Um, and putting those on kind of helps um, like when you're getting ready for bed, helps you like signal to yourself this is the routine. They they do say that having a bedtime routine and sticking to that routine is something that can really help because you're signaling to your body physically, hey, this is this is what we do before we go to bed. Um and I do note that those are those things are very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

Yeah, they are. Uh I truly believe in them. I just need to get better at my consistent bedtime.

unknown 1:21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:22

I struggled with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ace keeps us fairly regulated, but I like to buck the the um I like to buck the rhythm.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

I like to I'll create my own rhythm. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:36

You know me. I like to I like to like, I don't always like to follow the same pattern. I like to take a different way to get somewhere just because it's a little more fun and uh engaging. And I get I get bored. But um, with the bed time routine, maybe like being bored is is a good idea. Correct. Because then you can sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

Um well and after this conversation, you now know how important sleep is, and maybe fucking the system at bedtime isn't the right time to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:03

Maybe it's not the right time. I mean, come on, don't like don't don't don't allow yourself to have like the trash bins in your brain full um because then you can't enjoy life at at the fullest. And that's really the whole point of everything that we talk about and the journey that we are on is how do we get the most out of life? How do we spend the mo the most amount of time we can enjoying it as much as possible? And sleep is a way to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:29

It's very important.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:30

It is. So thank you for having this conversation with me about sleep. Some sometime at some point in the future, we'll talk about dreams a little bit more and like analyzing those. But for now, um, let's just focus on uh how to best create those dreams. Um, and um share with us. We'd love to know from you. What do you do to help you sleep better? Um, depending on what platform you're listening on, you can leave a comment. You can reach out to us via email at connect at Chris and GenITM.com. You can text us at 940-278-8129.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:06

And like I said earlier, we are on all the social platforms, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook under Chris and Jen ITM. ITM stands for in the morning. Um, so feel free to like, follow, subscribe, share, do all of the things on those platforms. It helps us um know that people are listening and um it helps our content reach people who want to connect with it. So we would love for you to join this community that we're building. And yeah, Jen, I so appreciate the conversation around sleep. Like I knew it was important, but like it was.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:35

Wow, I had no idea how important it is. So um, well, until next time, be kind to yourself, to one another, and make it a great week.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:44

Bye, everyone.