What Is Real Resilience? Adapt, Learn & Grow

In Part 1 of this deep dive into resilience, Chris and Jen challenge the traditional belief that resilience simply means "bouncing back" or being tough enough that nothing hurts. Exploring the neuroscience behind stress and neuroplasticity, they reveal how the brain’s amygdala, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus work together to adapt to life’s challenges. They redefine resilience as an ongoing process of recovery and adaptation—rather than emotional suppression—and explore how "ordinary magic" and supportive connections allow us to thrive despite past adversity.

Three Pivotal Points:

• Resilience vs. Emotional Suppression: Resilience is not a fixed personality trait or a measure of how well you can suppress your emotions. Resilient people still experience stress, exhaustion, and sadness; resilience is about how you adapt and recover afterward.
• The Neuroplasticity of Adaptation: The brain is not a finished product; through neuroplasticity, it creates new neural pathways in response to stress and learning. The amygdala (threat detection), prefrontal cortex (regulation and planning), and hippocampus (context) form a internal "resilience team" that helps navigate adversity.
• The Power of "Ordinary Magic": Genetics and early environments set our initial baseline, but they do not determine our permanent future. Small, supportive human interactions, positive relationships, and acts of kindness—termed "ordinary magic"—can actively shape our brain's capacity to heal and grow.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction: What is resilience and why it matters

03:56 The influence of societal messages and personal perceptions

08:54 Are you truly resilient or just good at pretending?

09:36 The cultural definition of resilience: toughness and emotional suppression

12:22 Resilience includes vulnerability, crying, and asking for help

16:22 Myths about resilience: bouncing back and personality traits

18:30 Resilience as a process, not a fixed trait

22:19 The impact of social media and information overload on resilience

23:17 Neuroplasticity and the brain's capacity to adapt

27:03 The brain's resilience team: amygdala, prefrontal cortex, hippocampus

30:40 Managing stress responses and trauma with resilience

33:11 The science behind trauma, PTSD, and resilience

36:32 Why resilience is essential for happiness and well-being

41:16 Resilience as a skill that can be cultivated and practiced

45:35 Genetics, environment, and the capacity to develop resilience

50:23 The concept of ordinary magic and small acts of kindness

52:30 The influence of supportive relationships and community

56:02 The power of small acts and everyday kindness

58:11 The lasting impact of childhood experiences and role models

58:46 Conclusion: Embracing resilience as a communal and personal journey

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever wondered if the strength you pride yourself on is actually resilience? Or if you've just gotten really good at pretending you're just fine. We often wear toughness like a badge of honor, muscling through every obstacle alone. But true adaptation isn't about being unbreakable or suppressing your pain.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I think a lot of times what looks like resilience is being really good at pretending you're okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Like that is people wear that as the badge of honor.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

It's what people admire about other people, right? It oftentimes can come at a great cost. If that's not what resilience is, what is resilience? The question here is have we confused resilience with emotional suppression? Because if you are someone who's resilient, can be resilient and also cry. They can be resilient and be exhausted. They can be resilient and need therapy. Ask for help. Have a terrible day. Like just because you have a bad day doesn't mean you're not resilient.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Today, Chris and Jen break down the cultural myths surrounding strength, reveal how your brain's neuroplasticity actually responds to stress, and explain why feeling exhausted or asking for help doesn't mean you've failed. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Welcome to Chris and Jen in the morning, where self-care meets real life.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

And I'm Jen. We are super excited to be here today. And um today we're gonna talk about something that I think is really interesting. It's really exciting. Um, and I think it's a huge piece of how we live a happy, um, content, peaceful life in this um, you know, world where we travel through lots of turbulence. Um, so we want to talk about resilience today. Um, we want to talk about how resilience isn't about being tough enough that nothing hurts. It's really just about the ability to adapt, recover, learn, connect, keep moving forward and uh a meaningful life. Um like finding that meaningful life when things don't go according to plan. Um, and so I'm super excited to have this conversation. I think it calls back on a lot of the things that um we talk about over uh like both season one and this season, season two. Um, and it's something that I think is is really close uh to me personally and my like values and um things that I'm constantly searching after. So um can't wait to talk about this with you, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah, I feel like it's super timely and I have some things to share as we go through.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

It's gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Now I know this idea um started as a like a conversation around like the some other heavier topics um and what do we want to address. Um, but before we get into it, what I was wondering is, you know, like what I know what resilience means to me, but um, like as you approach this topic, what like what was the impetus for this? Or is that something we're gonna find out throughout the conversation?

SPEAKER_02 3:24

I mean, we'll talk about it a little bit, but I think for me, it was more about I think knowing that it just feels like there's so much noise around us all the time anymore. Um, and so like all of the messages were inundated with the things that we're supposed to figure out and and get through it and all of these things. So whenever we had the conversation and and you had been like, oh, well, what if we look at it from the from this angle, I was like, oh, that actually makes a lot of sense. So I'm excited. I'm excited to be going on this journey. And we are on this journey, right? Like we're building this community to have conversations like this. So if you're new here, welcome. We are happy to have you. If you are a returning listener, thanks for tuning in. Um, if you are not already subscribed on whatever your favorite podcasting platform is, please subscribe. That will send notifications whenever we release new content. And then if you are not following us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, feel free to go out there and find us. We're Chris and Jen ITM on those platforms. Um, and there you can see more of our like behind the scenes type content. Um, but you know, like, share, follow, subscribe, all of the things. It lets us know. Um comment.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

We want to know what you think. Sometimes it feels like we're speaking into the void, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

You're a parent. You're probably used to that. It's true. It's true.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Um all right. So moving on, why don't we start with gratitude? And um, you know, I think gratitude is such a huge part of resilience as we were prepping um this conversation that we're gonna have. One of the things that I was just kept coming back to is um like this is why we practice gratitude, because it helps build resilience. So um super excited for that. But um, I can go first. Um I uh between the time that we sat down to meet here last and now, I um got I have celebrated my 22nd wedding anniversary. And um, I just have to say, like I know that I, you know, I'm often giving gratitude for Ace, but um, you know, it is okay to be grateful for the same things repeatedly.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

And I have to say, I'm just I'm so incredibly grateful to get to go through life with this partner who is um, you know, my like my person, my best friend, my support, um, who sees me for the entirety of who I am and um loves me for that, who we can be imperfect with each other and be safe enough to be okay with that. Um so just I'm incredibly grateful because I know many people go through life without finding that kind of relationship. And um I'm I'm very grateful to have it.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, I mean, look, Ace is one of a kind kind of guy. So I'm happy you have him in 22 years. You know, I'm are you even old enough to be have been married in 22 years?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Barely.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Child bride. No, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I was in my 20s when I got married. I was 20. I was 20, but I was in my 20s.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Well, congratulations. Happy 22 years.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Thank you. And now you all know how old I am.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Yeah, there you go. If you're good at math, um, you are figuring it out now. Um, okay, so my gratitude moment is, and I know I've said this one before, so you know, I hearken back to it's okay to be grateful for the same thing multiple times. Um I have amazing friends. I have amazing friends here, I have amazing friends there, I have amazing friends all around. You and these included.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

You have amazing friends. I adore your friends. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

They are quite fabulous. And this last week we've spent a lot of time with our friends, and we've gone on different adventures, we've gone and seen different things, and um really as I was um getting ready for this episode and and you know, pulling thoughts and notes together, it was one of those things that wow, I am fortunate to have um this group of people around me who I can reach out to and like who sees me and who are able to push and ask and be involved. Um, because you know, life isn't always easy. And so people who see you and are there for you are very important. So thank you to you and Ace for being a huge part of that. Um but also just thanks to all the friends.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

You have this amazing group of friends who I just absolutely love to hang out with every time I get to come there and we get to hang out uh with them. And um, like you should have a friend curation service. You know, they have like matchmakers. You should be like a matchmaker for friends.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Oh, that could be look, there's my new business site.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

You're a friendship yenta. That's what you should be. Um, just just, you know, in the next, in the next 10, you know, the next decade.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, can figure this out.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um so let's talk about resilience. Um, you know, and I think one of the one of the questions that often um gets overlooked when we think about resilience is like, are you resilient? Are you really just good at pretending that you're fine? Um and there's a big difference between being resilient or practicing resilience um and um just pretending that everything's okay. Um and if what you're doing is just pretending that everything's okay and shoving it all down, um, you know, that takes a lot of strength to do. But eventually, uh, you know, every action has an equal and opposite reaction and all of that pressure um blows back out. And so uh uh it's not really the best for our um overall health and wellness and happiness in this lifelong pursuit of happiness that we um are on.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

I know that we have like a running joke about using the word fine. Um, and I know it's not like in comparison to the same things we're gonna be discussing here, but like this idea of being just fine is definitely like it just took a different lens.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Now you understand this together. Now you understand why when I say how do I look and you say you look fine, that's what fine means carries this whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

There's other things you're not saying, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

This whole uh connotation of um just uh fine means it's you know, there's stuff, but we're not gonna talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Um so there is like a cultural definition whenever we talk about uh resilience. Like there is um, I think uh a way that we think about it. And I don't know if it's as I was trying to think back of how I learned about resilience, I couldn't really like pinpoint like when or where I was taught about it. Um definitely like the word uh, you know, through vocabulary and things like that, but like how you actually personalize it and take it on, I couldn't I couldn't really call back to a moment when I was taught about resilience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Um what about you? I I think for me, what I picture when I think about resilience is always a rubber bouncy ball bouncing and then and then bouncing. And that image is always like you hit the ground, but then you go right back up, flying, and everything's, you know, fine. Um and I think when I think about resilience, what I have always thought about is like you're made of really tough stuff. Like nothing gets to you, you know, nothing is gonna take you down, nothing's gonna drag you down, because you'll always just muscle your way back up. And so um, I didn't realize fully that that was how I was um defining resilience subconsciously until I started pulling together the content for this um conversation. And and I really was thinking about it and I was like, you know, yeah, I do like think resilience, being resilient gets worn as like a badge of pride of like, yeah, I can, I am strong enough to be able to pull myself back up. Um, and so I think our that I think is the cultural definition of resilience, being tough, not complaining, keeping on going no matter what. Um, you don't need help, you bounce back quickly, you handle everything. Oh, you know, whatever comes your way, you just will always survive it. And um, I think a lot of times what looks like resilience is being really good at pretending you're okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah. And I do like a lot of those things that you just said in there. Like those are also things that you get rewarded for, awarded for, like whether it's in like group projects, in school, at work, like you anything thrown your way, you just find your way through. Like that is what people wear that as the badge of honor.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

It's what people admire about other people, right? But um, it usually comes, it oftentimes can come at a great cost, uh, that then may make you feel really unseen or um like even unseen by yourself. And you kind of get this to this place where you feel kind of incongruent with like this image that you're giving yourself versus how you're really feeling on the inside. And so as I started to dig into, well, then if that's not what resilience is, what is resilience? Um, you know, I think the the question here is have we confused resilience with emotional suppression? And I think maybe. Um, because if you are resilient, someone who's resilient can be resilient and also cry. They can be resilient and be exhausted. They can be resilient and need therapy, ask for help, have a terrible day. Like just because you have a bad day doesn't mean you're not resilient. Um, they can be resilient and have just not a single clue what they're doing or what they're gonna do next. Um, and they can be resilient and need to take a break. And I think all of these examples are things that, like when I read them and kind of pulled these together, um, made me feel like so obscene. Um, because I was like, yeah, like I do feel like sometimes I can't cry because I'm supposed to be resilient and that's how you get to happiness. Or um I'm exhausted, but I can't say I'm exhausted, or there has to be an excuse for why um I'm exhausted. Um, you know, I'm good with the going to therapy part. I've got that one down, but um, you know, needing help, um not knowing what to do next, taking a break. Like just think about work um and how I took a break from work and how that was like did it just did I fail? Like that was a question I kept asking. I had this terrible fear of failure. Um, did I fail? And that's why I needed to take a break, um, which is crazy. Um, but it was absolutely how I was feeling.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Right. And these are all things like what I find interesting is like we judge ourselves for it. Like, oh, I'm crying, that must mean I'm weak. Oh, I'm tired, that must mean I'm I you know, I I didn't get enough sleep. I've not I've not caffeinated enough. Like we we don't actually acknowledge these things for the for the um what they're truly exhibiting in us and and giving them that time and space. And so uh I I love how you like make that connection. Like resilient people can also be all of these things.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yeah. Like it's there's not it it I think resilience sometimes um for me at least has felt like this thing that um you know I am supposed to just keep being. It's a part of the value that I bring. And so like you can't feel weak because then you're not resilient, and that's that's actually not like how it works.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Um, so I think our, you know, one thing to just note here is that our stress response, it's not designed to prevent us from ever feeling distressed. Um, it's designed to help us respond and adapt to the challenges. So it doesn't mean you never go through the turbulence. It just means that, you know, you you can respond and adapt to that. Um, and so resilience isn't about the absence of stress, it's what happens afterwards. Um, and and I think that's what we want to talk about today.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah. So let's let's talk about resilience. So there are definitely some myths that we have come to learn exist in this space and where they come from, the the messages that we've taken in and and have absorbed as like what we believe resilience is. Some of the myths are resilience means bouncing back. It's just like that ball you talked about, it gets dropped and then it goes right back up. Like that's that's a myth. It's not a not not really what resilience stands for. Um, people don't necessarily always bounce back exactly the same. Like it is the ability to continue on, but it's understanding that adversity actually does change us. There are things that um happen to us in our lives, and we uh we now walk around being changed because of those things. And because I love a good music reference, the song Um Sarah Borelus is she used to be mine, I think is a great example of that. Like it is about a woman who is reflecting on her life before these life changes started happening to her. And she misses that person. She wants to be that person again, and and she's finally realizing, like, I've changed. I can't go back to who I was. Um, so you know, just wanted to add a little bit of musical anecdote in there.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

I love that. I think one of the other um big myths around um resilience is that it's um a personality trait. And um resilience is a process, it's not a personality trait. Um, and it that means that if it's something that you feel like you want to get better at or do more of, like you can. It's not out of reach for any of us. Um, and we'll talk a little bit about like some of the neuroscience behind it, some of the genetics behind it at a very high level, um, because neither of us are neuroscientists. But um, but I there were some very heavy articles I sent you. I don't know if you read them, but they were a lot to chew through.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah, I tried. I tried.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Um so um, but it was uh, you know, I think that was one of the biggest questions that I had is my hypothesis was um like resilience is something that you a muscle you build, it's something that you can practice. Um, but like I that wasn't necessarily what I was getting from um like the cultural definition of resilience and a lot of the feedback that you get because it it gets kind of said to you in a way of it's just a part of your personality, it's who you are. And um, and so then you when you feel like that's a part of your personality, you feel like you have to lean into it, which adds to this like emotional suppression. Um so I think resilience is the capacity to adapt successfully to adversity. And um, we all have the ability to influence that capacity. Um, and so that's what we want to talk through today. Um, it's something we do, it's not something we either are or are not. Um, so if you know, you have tough stuff coming at you or that has come at you in the past, and you know, most of us that's true for, um I think pretty much everybody has experienced things that are tough for them. And you don't like measure your tough stuff against somebody else's tough stuff and say, well, my tough stuff doesn't rank that high because um it's still very real. Um, and so, you know, I think if if you want to be able to continue moving forward and not let those tough times steal all of your future joy, happiness, peace, all those things, resilience is a really good tool to lean into for that. So um, that's why we want to talk about that today. Um, you know, we just went through this global pandemic um, you know, uh in the past five years and um six years, how long has it been? Um, and I think people are still like trying to recover from that. Um, and I think, you know, resilience is absolutely a part of that journey, right? Like you think about resilience for you as a person, and then I think about resilience on the like the society level.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Right. I mean, I actually found myself um in a I don't know if like journaling exercise or of writing exercise. I don't know. I don't I don't know what the right word is, but I was really thinking about like, geez, it just feels like things are really hard. Thing like, and so I find myself like wondering, you know, are are things really as bad and like as extreme as what I feel they are right now? And so I just like dipped into history for a little bit to just try to help like kind of recenter like the reality in which, you know, m I didn't live through, but like understanding the human condition throughout time. And you know, the 19 uh early 1900s, there was World War One, there was the Spanish Flu, there was World War II, the Holocaust, um the Great Depression, yeah, like all the 1960s and early 70s, the Vietnam War, civil rights conflicts, like all like these things that to us seem very um exhausting right now and maybe uh um constantly inundated with um we as a human um society has has existed and gotten through before. Um the the unique difference I think we're Right now is how quickly information comes to us. And I think that's an important piece in all of this is how to protect yourself. Um, and it's a lot of it is how how much are you taking in and what are you taking in. Not so much specific to resilience, but it is important to we have talked about that in the past.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

A big part of mental health is um putting yourself back in charge of how much and what you fill your uh surround yourself with, fill your mind and your day with. And um, there is a balance between not putting your head in the sand, um, but also like not sitting in front of CNN 24-7 um to the point that you're stressed out, right? Um, or Fox News or, you know, whatever news you listen to or social media or whatever, right? I'm just making the point of like being so connected into everything that happens all the time and the conversation that goes on and on and on in order to get listens and views and, you know, all of that um comes at your expense. We've talked about that in the past. So I think that's super important. Um so one of the things I want to talk about um with resilience and uh how your brain was built to adapt is neuroplasticity. And we've talked about this before, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:19

We did, yeah. We we uh did an episode a couple of episodes ago, choose who you become, the science of identity. And we really did discuss this idea that our brain is not a finished product. It is not something that like we were like, great, it's baked, it's ready to go. Like through life and through challenges and through experiences, our brain will actually respond and it will begin to um create other neuropathways for us to um survive, exist, and move forward with.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Yeah. It's I mean, the things that that continue to evolve, the pathways in our brain, um, it's not just experiences that we have, it's then the learning that we do. Um, so what we participate in learning. Um, so like what you and I are doing as we um go about this podcast, you know, we're educating ourselves on different things. Um, that's actually like changing the pathways in our brain. Um, stress. Um, we all experience levels of stress. You don't say some of us feel that more than others. Um, the our environment, relationships, behavior. Um, so I think the point here is that resilience isn't just psychological. And that's a lot of what I think we tend to think on the surface that resilience is you just muzzle through it, you just power through it. Um, but it's it's not just like this psychological mind over matter. It's like everything that that is happening around us is building into our resilience.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah, like and it can change our brain. It can change the way in which we adapt and show up. And I think um one of the things that I really like about this idea is like it's our brain is basically taking notes so that as we continue through life, like exactly, like it's keeping track. So when we experience this again, it gives us like that reference point. So maybe something won't seem as hard or it won't seem as daunting because like our brain then is like, okay, we've we've done this before. And and how do we how do we respond to this? So not saying it's not without stress or or without hardship, but your brain does begin to figure out how to um better adjust um as you as you approach those things.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Well, you know, Chris, what was so interesting um as I was thinking about this part of resilience was that I we talk a lot about how our brain is constantly trying to um assess the environment to not be surprised. Our brains don't like uncertainty. And so they learn from things like fear, avoidance, hypervigilance, helplessness, like the just to because the brain likes certainty, it doesn't like to be shocked or surprised or not know what to do. It's always trying to plan and protect. Um, and so we've talked about that quite a bit, but we talk about that, like those are all um like things that it's trying to protect us from. I think part of what I loved is that um when when we think about resilience, our brain can also learn um like confidence. It can learn regulation, it learns problem solving, flexibility, recovery, like all of those the other side of the coin. So it's not just like a threat. You know, the the amygdala is obviously that threat response detection, but your brain has many different pieces that work in concert with each other. And so it does, it's not just learning how to protect us, it's also learning how to evolve us, um, to, you know, be able to experience and enjoy more of life, which I think is beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah, I mean, I I love again this idea that um our brain is not done. It is not a finished product. And that does mean in we can choose the destiny, we can change that direction. We can, it's the learning of of what is happening in our brains and in our bodies so that way we can make more decisions that will set us up for success in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, absolutely. So um uh, you know, we talk a lot about the amygdala, the prefrontal cortex, the hippocampus, how they all work together.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Um mentioned them a time or two before.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

We have. And you could think of these like the resilience team that you have. Right. Um, so we've talked about that amygdala being like the threat detection, but that is a part of our resilience team. So if you think about your amygdala, it's like the smoke alarm, your brain's threat detection system that's asking, could this be dangerous? What it doesn't do is say, let's calm calmly investigate all of the evidence, right? That's that's not the amygdala's job.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Um does not equal amygdala.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

No. Everybody has a uh a job here, and the amygdala's job is threat detection, smoke alarm, right? When that smoke alarm starts beeping, um, you know, it's like pay attention. Um, and so like this is like this is such an example I think everybody can relate to. Your boss is like, can we talk? And your amygdala is like, red alert, fire, fire, fire. I'm getting fired today. Um something bad. And usually it's like it's benign to good. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Um and so um then you have the prefrontal cortex, and that's like your adult in the room, right? So that's um helping you with your planning, your decision making, your perspective, your emotional regulation, your problem solving. Um, but when we're extremely stressed, accessing those higher order functions, that's harder, right? Um and so this is like such a good example. Um, like last night, uh, I woke up or this morning, whatever, at like four in the morning, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I haven't heard back from Chris on like multiple things this week. And um I like I must have said something that really upset him. Um so like 4 a.m. Jen was like, oh my gosh, um, like he's mad at me. Where there's like a, so I've done something I need to apologize for. I'm you know, so the um I almost texted you at 4 a.m. And I was like, no, no, no, we're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Thank you for not doing that.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

But that was a smoke alarm portion of my brain. Um, the the the prefrontal cortex was not there. Um, and so I think I I have learned about myself that that, you know, or just people in general, like that that's not the part at 2 a.m., 3 a.m., 4 a.m. that gets kicked in. Um, and so that's when you have to practice distance.

unknown 30:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Take a beat, take a beat.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yep. So if this feels, you know, relevant to you, I know I'm not the only one. Um and then um there's the hick hippocampus, which is your context department. So the hippocampus's job is to say, um, it it's helps your brain remember where and when something happened and provides context for the memories. So the threat detection is like um like danger. And then um the the uh prefrontal cortex is like, okay, let's think about this reasonably. The hippocampus is like, okay, let's provide some context to the situation. Um, so is this actually happening right now, or does this just remind me of something that's happened before? Um, and so this example I think is really helpful. Imagine that you've been in a serious car accident, and months later you're driving, and somebody suddenly slams on their brakes in front of you, and your amygdala recognizes this pattern and says, danger, danger, danger. Um, but then your hippocampus provides uh some context here. And it says, wait, this is a different road. We're okay. It reminds us the accident uh that happened before is not what we are back in today. And your prefrontal cortex can then help you evaluate what's actually happening and regulate your response to the situation. Um, and usually all of that is happening very, very fast inside your brain. Um, and this is the important distinction, I think, when we talk about trauma. Um, for some people that are experiencing like PTSD, um, a reminder of the original trauma can sometimes trigger re-experiencing of the trauma and not just a callback to the trauma. And so instead of simply remembering that terrible thing that happened to me, it's it feels much like you're much more like you're like immediate in danger happening all over again.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Like you're reliving that experience.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

You're reliving the experience. And um, and but I think the important call out that I have here is that resilience like is something that um you can use to help you regardless of whether you're um like experiencing PTSD or um you're not, and it's just like a memory of something traumatic that happened. Um so the the body and the brain can respond to the reminder as though the threat is present now when you have PTSD, um, and when the person, even though you're objectively safe and and you just can't like tap into that. And so I think that's where some of the same things that um the same practices will talk through around resilience um can can help in those situations as well. Um, which I think is is like really hopeful.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Um it's also one of the reasons why in talk therapy there's a lot of like trying to go back to understand what people's like actions are, like, why are you feeling that way? Why did you respond in that way? Trying to get to like what is it that put you on that path? Um, and I do think um it it's tough because sometimes you don't know, like you're you can't like tap into that. Um, but the more you spend sitting in it and thinking about it, reflecting on it, you may actually get to that place of, oh, yeah, like this is what happened to me and my body put like my brain and my body like we're instantly back in that moment. So really working through stuff, it it's like one of the important reasons you don't just leave, you know, you try to work through it and and figure it out. Because it does, it can show up in other places.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I think regardless of like the severity or or the the situation you're in, when we think about resilience, um, you know, it means that the brain can learn new things too, not just, hey, once this happened and now every time I um get that trigger, like I I learned that this can go wrong. It can also learn that happened then and this is now. And I'm allowed to feel safe again. I think that's a huge one. And I can experience joy again or happiness, or I don't have to, you know, this, this doesn't have this was then and and um and and this is now. And so I think that's a big part of where the hippocampus comes in um to help give you that context and uh and understanding that can help you tap into that, which I think is, you know, part of why I enjoy this approach to like thinking about these things is understanding what's going on in the brain and how do I tap into that better. Um so um for for me, as I was reading about this, the the thing that really stood out was that there's hope no matter what the situation is or was. Um, like everyone can have this, everyone can have resilience, build resilience, practice it, get better at it. Um, and if it's not something that you know you're leaning into right now, that's okay. But if you're searching for happiness and how to find peace again and how to not let um things that have happened control your future too, it is something that can be really helpful. It's for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, for sure. And like PTSD, like trauma like that, there's like some big things connected to that. But I think there's also realness in the stressors of our everyday lives that like maybe aren't quite as, you know, um impactful, but still like stuff that sticks you or pulls you down and knowing that you really can um find a way to move into this more safe, more connected, more um uh relaxed place, um, it's possible. It's just uh think of it as a muscle. You have to work it out, you have to train it, you have to be able to know when you need to engage it. Um and and and part of that is self-reflection.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah, absolutely. So, like I know we've kind of been hitting on this, but why is resilience like important for happiness?

SPEAKER_02 36:32

I I mean I think this kind of goes back to kind of where I I started this was around like life is hard. And it like j just because we acknowledge life is hard does not mean it's going to get easier. It doesn't mean those things are gonna go away. Um, but if we can truly harness the and understand what our brains are doing, what our how our bodies are reacting in these moments, we can then start to move our our bodies and our brains and into a way that we can seek happiness and we can try and set us up for success. Because I do think part of resilience is is having a plan to know that you you get to get through something. It's not just powering through it, it's knowing that you're gonna survive, you're going to get through this. Um so the goal isn't like how do I eliminate all the bad, all the stress, all of the, you know, adversity that may be existing. It's more about how do I keep adversity from stealing my entire life and totally throwing me into a spiral?

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, absolutely. I think that statement really like resonates with me as a highly competitive person. You know, whether it's the pandemic or um, you know, the the house fire we went through, or you know, the the like many other things, right? What how like how do we keep hard things from then dictating all of the rest of my life? Um, and I think that's like the journey of therapy um as well. Um, and I I do think this is where like having a professional help you through some of this can sometimes be really helpful. Um, but you also have to go in and do the work on you know yourself as well. Um so stress can affect our reward system. Um, under chronic and severe stress, some people experience reduced motivation um or reduced pleasure. I always thought of that like enui. Um, but if you've seen um, you know, the feelings movie, what is that called? Um The Feelings movie from from Pixar? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh you know what I'm talking about. I do. The second one had the enhui character, you know. Um, but it's called Anadonia. Um, and this is something that as I was reading about this Anadonia, I was like, oh, um, oh, like I so I can see some things here. Um, it's that it's like this. I know I usually love this, but I just don't care feeling. Um so like your favorite restaurant, you know, meh. Um friends, like, uh, you know, I mean, I do love my friends, but maybe later. I don't really feel up for it. Um, vacation, you're still like checking your email, plugged into your Slack. Now that could just be like your anxiety and and lack of uh ability to set boundaries or fear of failing or any of those things, but it also could be like you're just checked out to um being able to enjoy yourself. And so you're smiling over there.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Inside out. That was the movie.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Inside out, inside out, inside out. Um just think of that character Ennui from uh Inside Out Too. Yeah, and that's what I think of when I think of Anna Jodia.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

But I actually, when I was when I was reading about this, it actually made me sad. Like this basically says that if we if we can't find a way to um manage these things happening in our life, like it can actually steal joy from us. Things that once like brought us joy and happiness and the places we would go to to kind of like refill that cup, like it puts a hole in that cup. And like you can pour as much into it, but it's not going to. And then like our bodies begin to be like, well, this doesn't bring me as much joy. And then I think about like all the things, I mean, I'm chronic start something new and like okay, I've the the nuance kind of wears off. I don't know anything about that. What are you talking about? But then part of me, part of me actually wonders, like, is part of it that? Like, is it this idea that the things that are happening around me, like it's just it's too much to think about like trying to wrap my arms around something or the thing that brought me joy, it's not doing the same thing for me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Like, stress can just edge out the the like all the room for pleasure to be left behind. But the good news is we do have agency. Resilience is not a personality trait, it is a choice. Um, it's not something you have to do alone. So it's not I do what I don't want people to walk away hearing is resilience is a choice. And so if you don't have it, you're not choosing it. That's that's that's not what we're saying. Yep. When my therapist said to me, happiness comes from within, it's a choice. And I'm like, oh, so it's my fault that I am not happy.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Um that state did you like cratty drop into the throat?

SPEAKER_00 41:42

And he was like, that is not what I'm saying. And I'm like, well, that's what I'm hearing. So can you say it differently? Yeah. Um, but it's it's like I'm trying to convey the same thing. So now I've put my reverse role here. Um resilience is a choice, but it does not a choice that you have to like just dig deep and figure out um better. Like it's it's a it's a communal activity. Um, and I think that is a huge part of the difference between how I previously understood resilience. I thought it was just with from within, you know, you just power through. Um, but resilience can be a communal activity. Um it it's not just our ability to tolerate pain, it's our ability to remain available for joy. Um that's huge, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:36

I that is not what is rewarded, right? Like that is not the it's the wow, you you got through it.

unknown 42:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

You made you got it done.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

So if other people aren't rewarding it, maybe we should start rewarding ourselves. Exactly. And others, right? Because then you teach people how to how how to start thinking like that. Um, so the the question that I was battling with is are some people just born resilient? Um, this is like the nature versus nurture piece. And the answer is that yeah, biology does matter. So, like in some of those medical journal and journal articles that I sent over, which I'm sure you really enjoyed th thoroughly.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

I really enjoy those really dense articles you send over to me.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Yes. Um so biology does matter, but it is not our destiny. Um, and so there are, you know, certain um like genes and and genetics that do lend themselves to somebody being more prone to like resilience. Um there's also the like they actually can see genetic changes when trauma happens, especially at a very young age. And then whether or not there is um, so that changes your genetics, but also when you have Um, like a nurturing guardian or parental figure through trauma, after trauma, or just in general, that also codes into your DNA. Um, and so that was really interesting to me. And so as I was reading that, I started to go, okay, but wait, there are some people that have had like severe childhood trauma and did not have a supportive, you know, parent guardian situation. And so why do they survive? Like, how how why do they thrive? How do they come back from resilience, uh, like from trauma to resilience? Yeah. And I think the the answer there is that it is a combination of nature and nurture. And um even some very small things that you can experience, you can latch on to, and they can shape the way that um you're you biologically start coding things um and building resilience. So um that that was really fascinating to me, and we'll talk about some of that um, you know, in a little bit more detail. But um, you know, I think people start from a different place because of genetics, because of temperament, because of early experiences or relationships or environment, your brain development, your stress exposure. Um, but there is no single resilience gene. It's not like um either you have it or you don't, like, you know, the color of your eyes. Yeah. It is um, it's just the the starting line that you begin from, uh, but then, you know, your journey takes you, um, you know, takes you on this um evolution.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

I found the genetics piece super interesting because I would definitely lean more towards this is a nurture thing versus a nature thing. Um but then when you think about like if you if you truly subscribe to the idea of evolution, then it would make sense that this stuff gets coded like into who we are. Yeah. Like because things that once scared us or didn't scare us or put us into this stressful um way of living, like those things alter as as evolution progresses. And so I like it just is so fascinating to me that like they were, they were able, they're able to get down to the genetics of this and and talk about, you know, it's not just one thing, it's it's uh multiple layers and it's very dense, but it's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

I've read so many um like articles on examples of the research into how experience can change like the actual genetics that get passed down, um, which shapes how we react to things. And um, I'm just fascinated, I'm absolutely fascinated by that. Um, because I think it helps not only to understand like who you are, but how you got here. So then you get to kind of let yourself step back from some of the accountability or the judgment, I suppose I should say. Like there's a lot of self-judgment that gets in the way of becoming who you are and uh or who you want to be. Um, and I think that sometimes just understanding like how did I get here, it's like not because you're broken, it's like science. I guess things that get passed down all for good reason that sometimes just don't serve. Um, and and you're not at their mercy, you can also influence them, um, which I think is so fascinating. So um we know that early environments in particular, when your brain is in that um state of just like a, you know, huge sponge, we know that in early years your brain is um more uh open to picking up and learning things. It's why when you start to learn a new language um at a super young age, it's more likely to stick. Um, because how else could we learn how to, you know, like get born not knowing language and learn how to speak and talk so rapidly, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:24

It's very true.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Um, and so early environments um, because of that, can also really influence how your stress system develops at that genetic level. And supportive relationships can be protective, also altering our genes. Um, and adversity can alter your stress regulation. Um, and I know this is something that that like I have um explored a lot throughout my um, you know, health journey as well is like what what is going on with like the stress regulation system um and how to reset that. But um those changes, they aren't a deck declaration of your permanent future. I think this is what's really important. Just because it's how you got to where you were doesn't mean it has to be then what informs where you're gonna go. Um, so you can continue altering throughout your life. Um, and we see science behind that as well. Um, so your history influences your brain, but it does not get the final vote.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Right. And I think like I feel like our journey over this season has really been about understanding where where you want to go, the person you want to be, it is it is your destiny. You can choose where you want to go. There are things that are likely influencing um the way you're thinking, the way you're showing up, but it's you those are like data points of your past. And you get to choose, though, how you what you want to do with that and how you want to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yeah. So enter this concept of ordinary magic. So um, you know, back to this question of, all right, so there are some people that experienced some really hard stuff and they were not in supportive environments. And um, is life just over for them? Um, like, or how do they how do they ever find peace again? Like, where's the hope? How do they find happiness? So uh I know we've talked about like Elizabeth Smart and her um, you know, journey. And, you know, there are many other, unfortunately, cases of of people who, you know, are um at a young age put through terrible trauma and um and they are not in an environment where they have any nurturing or support. And yet you hear these like stories of how some of them beat the odds and like manage to, you know, get joy out of life or recover in some way. Not that it makes it all go away, but like you just think, how do you function after something like that? And um, I think this is where like I really started going, okay, so if the genetics say that, you know, either you you have these genes that put you in a better place or you were um like had a super nurturing environment and that helped to alter your genes, what about, you know, people who have um, you know, experienced tough childhoods and didn't have that supportive parent or guardian that was, you know, then coding into their DNA, this ability to be more resilient. This is where ordinary magic, the concept of ordinary magic comes in. Have you heard of that before?

SPEAKER_02 51:40

This was the first time, and I think um what a great phrase um that that is like we all experience these things. And who knew that there was an actual term, ordinary magic that that I mean, I certainly didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Yeah, and I I love the term because for me the example is also rooted in um something very magical. Um, but you know, we talk about how one small act of kindness can really change um, you know, in somebody's entire life. And so we think about um like there's one supportive adult or teacher or coach or friend or sibling or, you know, community, a safe place, and um actively where you felt an activity where you felt competent, um, humor, curiosity, purpose, um, the belief that your future can be different from your past. Like these things create this ordinary magic that then then can account for or help bridge that gap when that's not something that um somebody else uh who was you know a prominent figure in your life was giving you. So how we live our lives, even in moments that feel to us incredibly small, they can have a profound impact on somebody else's life. And um, you know, this is, I think uh speaks to me because it fits into my values of um, although not always succeeding, trying really hard to live in a way that is, you know, kind. Um, because those, like just that smile, kind smile at a stranger can have a profound impact on their day. Um for me.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

This is one of oh, so go ahead. Well, I was just thinking, like, I think this is one of those areas that when you um you probably don't realize it in the moments that you are having these types of experiences or these people are influencing you. It's more in that reflective state. And I think um you hear this a lot from like celebrity interviews, or you know, who was your biggest musical influence? Who was your favorite actor? Who got you into these things? And um pe some people have some really deep and meaningful, like, oh, this was this was my lifeline whenever I needed a place, whenever I I needed, you know, my my theater teacher's room was my safe place. You know, it it's things that people actually um in reflection, I think notice the impact that it probably had um on their lives in the long run. But in those moments, I I don't know if even I would think like, oh, this is this is gonna change the way I feel forever, like, or like the person the person that I want to be, like who I who will I I will aspire to be. Um so you're right, like it kindness is a is something we can all aspire to be. Um, but it's like it is a daily choice that you have to make. And I don't know, like I just think taking that time to really reflect and how you've gotten here, like that's a gratitude moment. Like those are moments that you can live in.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Well, and I think what's really interesting is like part of the adaptiveness of our brain is to constantly be searching for something to connect to, to create that um like social connection with. I mean, you even see this in people that um have been isolated or or imprisoned in you know um terrible situations and they, you know, befriend the rats or the bugs or the inanimate objects. I mean, even just going back to like the castaway um movie with Tom Hanks, and he, you know, is isolated and he turns a coconut into his friend, right? Like this is part of volleyball. A volleyball.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Wilson.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Wilson was a volleyball. Sorry, it was not a coconut. It's been a while since I've watched that. But like the point is that um it is a part of our like our our our brain's um ability to survive that starts to seek this connection and attribute this support from wherever we can find it. And um, I think that is a part of the like the DNA behind um resilience. Um, but for me, growing up in the Disney princess movement, you know, when all of those um Disney princess movies were coming out. And um I remember seeing Little Mermaid in the theaters. I was terrified of Ursula, by the way, she's very scary. Um, but there was a lot of messaging around the belief that you can be anything that you wanted. And it didn't matter where you came from or what you lived through, your dreams can come true. And all you have to do is dare to dream and to believe it. And so as I think about like these foundational things that I believe, like that's very core to what I um have believed. And I think um for me, like when I reflect on like why do I believe that, it's it's Walt Disney's vision that he brought to life. Um, and it is, you know, for better or worse, it is Mr. Walt Disney that I will always, you know, cherish and adore for that, because um it was his vision that he drove and brought to life through the the creativity and skill of many people that um, you know, is is why I have believed like I can be anything I want to be. Um, I can have anything I want to have. All I have to do is dare to dream. And if I dream it, I can reach it. And so, you know, Disney is a magical place to me, um, in huge part because that is a gift that he gave to me, not knowing me or who I was, right? Um, but but that's a way that I think, I mean, that seems like extraordinary magic because his impact was so vast. But I think it the it's a way that um, you know, things that you do can have this impact on people that you never even know.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

It's I mean, I I that is a beautiful example of what I think ordinary magic is. Um and the ability to look at that and be able to pull that out of like your childhood and and say, like, this is this is something back then that had such a big impact, and and today it still does, and it it has helped influence and and is a place that you go back to whenever you need that level of encouragement and inspiration. Um it's it's just such a beautiful thing. I'm glad you shared that. Yeah, I think. I know we've talked about Disney before.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Thank you for tuning in to part one of our conversation on resilience. We've unlearned the myth of bouncing back and explored how our brains are wired to adapt. But understanding the science is only half the battle. How do we put this into practice when life gets overwhelming? Next week in part two, Chris and Jen break down five practical daily tactics to build your resilience muscle. Challenge toxic positivity, and show why real strength sometimes means knowing when to quit. You won't want to miss it. Be sure to subscribe, and we'll see you next week. Be kind to yourself, be kind to one another, and make it a great week. Bye, everyone.