Episode 6 - Tune in: Forms, Functions and the Future of Access

Part 1: Accessible by default 

What if accessibility wasn’t an afterthought—but the starting point? 🎧 

In this new episode of Accessible Horizons, we’re talking about building accessibility by default—and yes, we’re even making government forms exciting. Join us as we uncover how GC teams are shifting mindsets, designing with intention, and creating tools that work for everyone. 

Plug in your headphones—accessibility starts here. 

 Part 2: Forms are us!

In Government, forms are everywhere. While we no longer find stacks of paper forms on the Administrative Officer’s shelves, we have gone through a troubled period when it comes to accessibility of forms in the GC. PDF fillable versions or Word forms riddled with inaccessible features have replaced the good old hard copy forms, creating barriers for many users of adaptive technologies. 

In this episode, we welcome the team at Employment and Social Development Canada that is eliminating barriers by offering GC Forms, a new, user-friendly, and accessible approach to develop and complete forms. 

We will also go “behind the scene” to understand how accessibility considerations became part of the GC Forms development process.  

Chapters

• 1:24 Accessible dy Default
• 11:41 GC Forms Guests- Stevie-Ray Talbot and Peter

Transcript

Intro
Welcome to Accessible Horizons, a podcast series about how to build a barrier free and inclusive public service. Join your hosts. Accessibility experts Nadine Charron and Luna Bengio from the Accessibility, Accommodation and Adaptive Computer Technology AAACT program for a lively discussion and lots of practical tips.

Luna
Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode six of Accessible Horizons. Every time I say the number of the episode, I mean all you can say. You know, I'm always ecstatic that we continue to record and produce this podcast. I'm Luna.

Nadine
I'm Nadine

Luna
And welcome, everyone. We have a very interesting guest.

Several guests, I should say today to, to this podcast who are going to talk to us about forms. So what would we be in government without forms. Forms are everywhere, and forms have been, very difficult for many people. So we're going to talk about the forms.

So before we go to that, we are going to talk about a topic that is near and dear to both our hearts, I think. And it's accessible by default. We talk a lot about accessibility. You see the word accessibility everywhere in policies and presentations. But I really, really building in accessibility. And what does accessibility by default really mean, Nadine?

Nadine
You always give me the hard questions. Accessible by default means just that it is accessible from the day or the time that you start your document, your website, your application, or your form, and which is something we'll be talking about today. So what does that mean? It means that you plan for it. You plan that your document will be accessible.

Because when you're building a website, there's something that we do. And I know this is not going to be for everyone, because the people who do the websites and the applications are mostly IT professionals that will do that. They're not everyone,
but everyone in the government of Canada. All we do all day long is write emails. We do word documents. We do PowerPoint presentations. We work in Excel and we fill out forms. Right. So when you talk about all of those different things, and I know that IT professionals are specific, but when you're building a website you're going to do a wireframe. You're going to design where your menu goes. And lucky for us, we have a common look and feel when it comes to the Government of Canada on a website.

But that's been thought of. So the wireframe is already done. So we know where to put the content and we know how to make it accessible. But when we're building websites or we're building applications, you're going to pop up windows, you're going to do menus, you're going to do a variety of different things. And there are many ways to do that. If you do them accessibly you don't have to finish building your whole website, then say, oh, I'm going to have it verified for accessibility. And all of a sudden it's like, oh no, I didn’t program it right. I didn't do this right. Oh, this doesn't work. This isn’t accessible. So what do you have to do.

Luna
Yes. Start over. So we don't want that. So we want to have the accessibility by default. And not everybody knows how to do that. And how do I know that is because every time I hire a student from those specific programs, either computer engineering or computer sciences or any of those things, what I notice is we end up teaching them here.

So they do an internship here and they learn accessibility. So it's not learn by default. So we are here at AAACT to be able to help you. We have designers. We have programmers that can do that for you. Let's get back to some documents. Right.

Let's talk about documents.

I just want to reiterate that accessible by default. It's a lot about digital accessibility. You talked about applications and document. But digital accessibility is like when you think about a building and it's not after you've designed your building, you've built it. You've got it all ready to go that you need to realize, oops, there's a bunch of stairs at the entrance.

There's no ramp. The lighting is difficult. It's difficult to navigate the building. By the time it's too late, it's going to cost and it's going to be long to fix it. So it's the same thing for digital content, whether it's applications or documents. Let's talk about that.

Nadine
I love talking about documents because it's what we do every day. And how lucky are we that the products that we use have built in features to make our lives easy? So when I have a 12 page document, do you think I would you know me well enough? Do you actually think I will read that word for word?

No. So I will either. Well, that's what I was going to ask you that. But, I will usually start with the headings and look and go to the specific information that I'm looking for. So if you're using headings and the built in styles in Microsoft Word they come in h1, h2, h3, h4, h5. And that allows me to scan the document really quickly.

Now you're using a screen reader. Can you do the same thing?

Luna
Absolutely. I can do that because I can either create a list of headings, and that's probably the first thing I would do, to figure out where is the information that I'm actually looking for. And or I will go to the table of contents. And if the table contents is created accessibly, it'll have links to the different sections, the different headings in the document.

So it's very easy to skip to the right place. And you know, I told you I like reading what I write. I read the beginning and then I read the end, and then I go in the middle. Well, I do the same thing with document.

Nadine
You know, in my mind, there's no point to going back to the middle if you already know the end.

Luna

Sometimes the plot is interesting.

Nadine
So, but with documents, sometimes the information you're looking for is right in the middle of a lot of blah, blah. That is the government documents. Right? And as much as we, are committed to using plain language and we still have a lot of text in documents, so a quick and easy way to navigate documents and just save some time. That's what accessibility of documents gives you, not to mention the fact that for many people, having accessible documents means they can understand the content better.

Luna

They can use the content better. It's less painful to see, for example, a whole block of text on the page where you're not sure exactly where to find the information you're looking for. So it's that's important.

And so what's the golden rule of document accessibility.

Nadine

Let's think there's a golden rule otherwise. Oh I see let me see if I can figure that one out. This is this one is throwing me for a loop. So the golden rule in my mind is use the software that you're doing for the best way of navigating through a document, and make it accessible from the beginning. Don't think about doing it after.
One of the things that when you're doing the headings, if you don't do the headings, people tend to use bold and italics in a document. Bold in italics doesn't allow me to navigate the document as well. And what does it do for you?

Luna

I can't find it exactly.

Nadine

So start and think of the document you're going to write, because we already do think about when you write an email. Luna, do you put all of your words one beside the other with no space, no period, no paragraphs? I wouldn't do that. How difficult would that be? So we've learned how to do that. We've learned how to, create those emails that have, you know, hello, it has a comma and then it has words.

So how do we continue to do that and create those documents accessibly and forms and websites and applications. Is that the rule you were looking for? Did you have something else you want.

Luna
You've answered it very well. Oh thank you. The golden rule of document accessibility. It's very basic. No manual formatting.

Nadine
Okay. There we go. That's even shorter than what I explained.

Luna
So don't go, clicking on the word, selecting it and hitting bold or control B go. No, no manual formatting. No no using doing it as you go because as you go it doesn't give you the accessible document. So I believe we're going to do another episode of this podcast specifically on the how, and we'll show you lots of tricks and tips on how to make documents accessible.

You'll have, the, Nadine and Luna version, as opposed to the ones that you find on every if you Google document accessibility.

Nadine
Yeah. So that will be interesting because one of the things that I've stopped doing is instead of telling people your documents not accessible, it's like, here's your one, two, three fix. One of my one of our colleagues says that a lot is like one, two, three fix. And it gives you all of the information to do something very quick because it's not it's not painful to do document accessibility.

And I'm going to debunk a myth. And then we're going to get on with our employment with our guests. Are you okay with that?

Luna

Absolutely.

Nadine

In PowerPoint.
Many people think that making a PowerPoint accessible meaning means there's just words and headings black on white and boring. That's a myth. You can make your PowerPoint presentation pretty. You can have four. You can have different aspects. You can have photos, you can have workflows. You can have all of the different things that people like visually and still be accessible.

You just have to.

Use things like the slide master and make sure that your document is accessible, easy to do, and we're going to get back to it. And a later podcast that we're going to make sure it's all about document accessibility, and it's not going to be about berating people. It's about giving them the tips and the tricks that anybody can use very, very quickly.

Luna

I can't wait.

All right.

Nadine
So let's get on to our guests and we're going to talk about forms. You ready.

Luna
Yes.

Nadine
So, Luna, we had our beginning of our podcast and we're ready to welcome our guests. Are you ready?

Luna
Yes. And it's very exciting to have these particular guests today because you know Nadine what's been the bane of my existence, in the federal public Service. What? Forms!

Nadine
Forms.

Luna
Forms are terrible. Forms are fillable PDFs. They're paper forms. They're all kinds of forms that are so difficult to use when you use adaptive technology or even if you don't or forms are not fun. So our guests, they have lots to tell us about great ways to design forms.


Well, we're hoping right. So, we're going to welcome, Peter and, Stevie-Ray to,
Accessible Horizons. And they are I'm going to let them introduce themselves, but they are definitely part of GC Forms. And that's what we're going to be talking about today. So welcome, gentlemen. And, can we start with some introductions?

Stevie-Ray
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us, Luna, Nadine, I'm Stevie Ray Talbot. I'm a senior product manager at the Canadian Digital Service, and I work on the forms team here. And I'll pass it over to my colleague Peter. Hi. I'm also on the GC forms team.

Peter
I rarely have a chance to talk about accessibility, so this is, exciting for me.

So a little bit about my background. I'm a full stack developer. I worked in the private sector, big and small tech companies and game companies. I also, as I mentioned before, I'm part of the, used to be part of the W3C.

I, I was part of the, Web Accessibility Initiative research and development workgroup, kind of a mouthful.

And my specialization was, we area live regions.

Nadine
That sounds really exciting. So, hey, let's dig into all of this, different things. So I'm not sure which one of you is going to answer this questions, but tell us a little bit about, GC forms and how it started.

Stevie-Ray
Yeah. Sounds good. I can kick us off.

So GC Forms kind of started back in 2021. We're re doing some initial discovery research, and I think we crossed paths at that time, Luna, to get some input on some of the issues that you'd experienced with forms. So thanks for laying some of the foundation to the product.

And then ultimately the, the project really picked up in 2022. End of 2022, beginning of 2023, when we built a kind of what you see is what you get editor. So if you're a public servant, you can sign up to GC Forms with your GC email and start building and publishing forms right away. We have some folks sign up the same day that they publish their first form, and generally our goal is to help public servants get the data that they need to provide the services and benefits to the public.

Sometimes that's a feedback form to make their their program work a little bit better, and other times it's the service or benefit itself. So basically if you're need to get a protected B form up, if it needs to be government branded, bilingual and of course accessible, then this will probably be the quickest part of your workflow.

Nadine
I will definitely agree with that. So and and I'll tell you a little bit of an anecdote later about how I first use GC forms. And I made a call into your team because I was trying to use it in a different way. And the responsiveness from your team was absolutely fantastic. So, let's go to you, Peter, because we want to talk about accessibility and accessible by default.

So, you know, Stevie-Ray you said it was great because we made the form accessible. It was easy. You can get it up in a day. So what makes this so accessible and how did you end up starting with the design? Because I'm assuming, and maybe I'm wrong, that you built it accessibly from the beginning and you didn't make it accessible once it was built.

Is that correct?

Peter
Yeah, that's definitely correct. I tried to push that too, just as one of the developers with the background accessibility, because I know from working in the private sector, similar to like mobile development and other other things that you're trying to achieve, accessibility to do this at the end is very hard to do. Well because, some changes might require massive code changes, whereas if you were to do it at the beginning, compliant end, it's actually quite, small change.

So just the amount of time is much lower, if you build it from the beginning. And I can go to detail how you do that, how we do that. If you'd like.

Nadine
A little bit of detail work, because I can imagine as you as an IT professional and I know I've done some coding and some programing, not that I like doing it, but my goodness, we can get into so much detail when it gets to. But I would like some more details, because one of the things I've seen in GC forms is the ability to use all of the different pieces.

You have drop down menus, you have radio buttons, you have modal windows, you have a variety of tools that we can use when you're asking questions that give you the variety in a form that you're looking for, whether it's a yes, no, true or false. And shout out to our participants from last podcast, because we actually used GC forms for our trivia contest, and we had over 300 people, I think, answer all our questions and we did it on a daily basis through GC Forms.


So tell us a little bit about how you built it, from the beginning, a little bit of detail on that. That's really helpful.

Peter
Sure. I can talk about feature by feature, sort of that process. So usually it begins like you mentioned in wireframes. So we have a tool, I believe that's called Figma and it's a collaborative tool. So a designer will come up with a new idea for a feature based on, product decisions and so on. And then right from the beginning,
myself and other developers, we can we can start talking about the design.

Like, wherever users struggle, we try to think about the usability, kind of like, accessibility, say, kind of holistically so we can add comments, to, to the design and start like asking like, okay, what happens if this, user clicks here or they get confused by this? Is this, concise enough?

This is just not possible that you can't do it like that and let it be accessible.

Have you thought about this contrast and so on. So I get that right. The, the initial design stages. And then that really helps because we get the conversation going with the designers and developers. And then when the developers go to start building it, we already know what we're building. And then once we get it's, sort of ready to be tested at that point, we have a bunch of, tell me if I'm going into too much detail or too long now.
That's good.

Nadine 

So thank you for.

Peter
Like, we have automated tests that run and look for WCAG conformance, 2.1 AA

And other things.

So that that runs automatically by default with our build process once it's ready for testing. So that's that's pretty much done. And then manual testing comes in from like myself and especially other people on the team that aren't so close to the, the feature.

Because as a developer, if I build it, stare at it, I will always be tunnel vision. To this point, I will miss a lot of other things so other people come in and help test, which is very helpful. But yeah, and while that's going on, I have like my own little mental checklist from years of experience, what to look for things like, is everything keyboard navigable?

Is this, say for example, beyond even accessibility, like say a touch pointer device for mobile phones, is this click target big enough to actually, reach this, just basic stuff like that. And then once that's done, maybe we'll iterate on the, on the feature a little bit more if we have even new ideas, go back to the design process, look at the figma, move forward.

Then then we, if we, when we, when we're able, we get real users to test our product, Fable for this, service, I think out of Toronto. You know about them. Okay. Yeah, they test it, and then give us a score. And based on their feedback, we iterate again on any changes and sort of like a consistent loop that we have going, and yeah, that's, sort of a high level view of our, of our dev process.

Luna
Whatever you just described is exactly what we envisage when we talk about accessible by design, because it was built and through our your process from the beginning through to the planning, through the coding and then through the testing. And it's a loop. So I think that you've just described what accessible by design looks like in reality.

Nadine
Great. Yeah. So excited to to hear about that. So how so you're using a third party. And I know that, we at AAACT have worked with you on, on some of the, designs and, and that information and hopefully we can continue to be partners in that iterative loop. But one of the things that we mentioned and accessible by design this morning, and when we do talk about students, there's not a lot of information out there for accessibility.

And if you look at some of the multimedia or computer science programs, accessibility is not always at the forefront. Can you tell me a little bit about how your developers learned about accessibility? Was it an iterative process or what is it, trial by fire or was it on the job training? Give us a little bit of details on how somebody gives becomes so proficient so quickly on accessibility when it comes to digital accessibility.

Stevie-Ray
Yeah. Happy to speak to that. So, it's been about five years that we've been developing the product, doing research and, and building up the solution. And we didn't always have a ton of accessibility expertise embedded on the team. So one of the things that the digital service did kind of early on was we allocated Fridays to be a professional development Friday.

And so we give folks time to dig into topics, around accessibility, around security, even things that interest them that, might improve the product a little bit later. Famously, Gmail was made out of these, development times out of Google. We're trying to take a little bit of a similar approach. There. And then while we've got Pete here today, we've got a full team of developers that are all at various stages along this journey and testing manually with whether it's VoiceOver or Jaws or NVDA to try and, go through and test what they built.

And so it's that combination of giving people time to, to study and learn. Yeah, ask people to post kind of what they're researching or learning about in Friday. And Pete's always helpful with some people that he follows. I'm sure he can dig into that a little bit more. But essentially we share the expertise across the team, make it everybody's responsibility, and give people time to, to learn more about the topic.

Nadine
That's great.

I used to call my Fridays like this every second week. We used to call them Creative Fridays. And in the learning world, it became, how do you do rapid design? How do you incorporate videos? How do you do all of that in very quick design? Because as you know, when you're developing online learning, you have to make it accessible.

It takes a lot of time. So how do you do that? So those creative Fridays were absolutely fantastic. And using a variety of tools to be able to do that. So I'm glad that, a lot of people are using those because they end up, being really helpful.

Luna
I want to get us back to the practical side of GC Forms, you know, I'm one of those people who, has, as I said, and you know it, Steve. And because of the fact that forms were so inaccessible. So, I know that in the early days of the project, there were some concerns that around what kind of information could go into these forms.

So you mentioned earlier that you can go up to protected. B, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Stevie-Ray
Yeah, absolutely. So when we first started out we were building the forms by ourselves, in hand, coding some, some Json. And at that point we just delivered it via email and it was only protected A. But over the last five years, we've been able to get an authority to operate at the protected B level, added a ton of different security features.

You can now get the forms within our user interface, and you can also get the forms via, an application programming interface. So if you have a developer, they can connect that to the case management system that you're using. So you don't have to manually process the data. But coming back to that building accessible by default and kind of by design, in those early days, we did some research with public servants who use assistive technology to understand the output formats that they use, I think, is both that, you know, the government runs on Excel and PDF, but, no surprise there.

Yeah, no surprise there. There's some difficulty with using those programs. We had, one, one public servant who, because of the machine that they had, it would take them five minutes to open up a larger PDF. 
And then also getting to a Excel file was difficult to navigate. So the first data output that we have, you, that we started with was in HTML format.

So whatever you whenever you get your data, there will always be a format in HTML that is easier for you to navigate that, works with the assistive technology that you're using.

For a few folks in government, they wanted CSV right away. We started with HTML because of that early research that we did as public servants.

CSV is also a thing in Excel, but HTML has proven over and over and over to be the most accessible, language to to look at different forms and different ways of navigating data.

Luna
Any more questions? Oh, yes. Of course. Question. That looks a little bit about what the future holds for GC forms.

And also at the same time, can you tell our viewers a little bit more about how they get to use GC forms for those who are not familiar? Again, you alluded to that at, the beginning, but give us a little bit more information.

Stevie-Ray
Yeah, absolutely. Happy to give you a little bit of a peek into what's to come. If you're looking to sign up for GC forms, you can go to Canada. ca/GCforms, a nice short URL there.

So if you'd like to join our cohort of public servants that are testing the product, you can click on the contact Us link and navigation at the top there and join our mailing list.
We do call outs to public servants to to test the features that we're, that we're building right now. We're working on a feature that will allow people to add file attachments to their forms. So if an individual needs to append, let's say a driver's license or proof of ID or something like that, you'll be able to take that data from members of the public, people filling out forms and get it in GC forms.

And this fiscal year, we're looking at improving editing forms after they've been published. One of the catches on the product right now is that it's a little bit difficult to edit a form. Once you published it, you have to take it down and then republish it, which is not ideal.

And then also a little bit of a drawback, right now that we're looking to fix this fiscal year is creating a way so that teams can manage multiple forms with different roles for different people.

Whether you're approving the form that's being published, or getting the data, or maybe you're a developer writing that integration with the API that I was talking about before, we've also got a public roadmap, which I can, send your way to, to put in there in the show notes. And, and we're always continuing to kind of go back and, and test.
We don't always get accessibility. Right.

And so the feedback process and getting feedback from our users is, is really helpful.

Nadine
That's great news. So let me tell you a little bit about why I use GC forms. One of the first times I've used it and it was HR related. So as soon as you went to,
protected B, often if you're going to do a talent management appointment or a non advertised process, you have to do, statement of merit criteria and you have to provide justification.
And, you know, those old forms of using a table in word,. right? Aren’t they horrible. 

Luna

Oh yes. That does so many of those.

Nadine

Exactly. But they don't work and they don't make it accessible. So gives the onus on the person who has to do them, a little bit more work. So the first time I used it, and this is how I reached out to your team first is I did all of my statement of merit criteria in the forms and I gave it some place to put in my comments after.

So the only problem that I had at the time, and I think you fixed that in many iterations, is I had to come back to edit, couldn't always do it in one sitting so that I would come back to it. So I reached out to your team and you're like, hey, let me look into this. And it's sort of fixed the problem.

So now it's completely accessible. I can put a SoMC in there, it's protected, B I can fill out the information that I need and send that off to HR. They can comment right in the form and it makes it so so much easier and again completely accessible, which was a fantastic.

Peter

Awesome. Yeah.

Luna
Sorry to add one more example. Yes. Go ahead.

Stevie-Ray
No, no please Luna, go for it.

Luna
Oh I was just you know, HR processes are generally inaccessible. So complex. Having filled out many of those assessments against SoMCs. As a manager I know what it how long it took me using a screen reader to to go through those tables. So this is like amazing. And it's amazing to think that those who will come after us will have it easier and easier because of initiatives like that.

Nadine
Exactly. So this has been absolutely fantastic. Is there anything else that we forgot to ask that you'd like to share with our viewers?

Stevie-Ray
We would love to get feedback on the product. So again, I'll just promote signing up for that mailing list so that we can test with public servants. We're testing a lot with the people who fill out forms, and that's a little bit easier with our partner,
Fable. But really, the public servants who use the product and build the forms, it's a little bit harder to test with members of the public.

And so we would love if folks could sign up for the mailing list and, help us make this accessible for not just the people filling out forms, but the people building it as well.

Nadine
So that's great news. So what I will do is I will when I edit the podcast, we'll make sure that we add that information and those links so that people can, sign up and they can start using the forms. So I think that will be great.

Luna
Yes. And you've also alluded to something that I think is so important, it's really difficult to get something that is perfectly accessible for every single individual. But I think what GC forms gives us choices, options and something that many people can hear. So thank you for all that work.

Nadine
And thank you for making it accessible by default. I think that was the theme of this podcast, and I think you have showcased how easy it was to make it accessible by default. And there are some information out there to learn about accessibility, especially when you're programming, and it doesn't have to be done at the end. And I love Peter, what you said, it costs so much more and it goes to that same example is would you build a 40ft, building and then think of putting in an elevator once your building is done?

You're not going to do that. So why do we keep doing it with websites? And, one more thing, Peter. Before we, we go is you talked about earlier. WCAG, you talked about AA compliance. And can you tell us a little bit about that? Because now that Accessibility Standards Canada has, accepted or, what's the word I'm looking for?

Luna

Adopted.

Nadine

Thank you. Adopted the Canadian standard, which is the EN 301549. How does that all work with what you do and the testing that you do?

Because eventually I'm assuming with the new regulations, the Canadian Standard will become mandatory. So how do you have you how do you use that to your advantage? When you were building.

Peter
To to make sure you understand the question.

Nadine
So I know it's convoluted a little.

Peter
Are you are you asking how we follow, WCAG conformance in general, yes exactly. Yeah. Yeah, sure.

So from a high level, we have like the basic checklist that you, you, even the W3C provides, maybe guides your links later, if you'd like, that.

Anyone can follow to make sure your site is accessible.

So as long as we reach those, we've sort of got, like, I guess you could say, a step towards conformance.

Then, of course, the the manual.

Sorry, I mean, a test that I mentioned, but then. Yeah, WCAG so you can, you can achieve conformance. And that's great. But the problem, is in WCAG doesn't try to solve this is that you can have a website that's both WCAG conformant and not accessible.

For example, there's a lot of subjective parts of WCAG that, are left up to the designer developer to figure out alt text is one, link text is another. So for example, if all the links say click me, how many users like going through an outline? It's not very helpful. They really can't use it without going through and like figuring out where each link goes.

And some of those links might even have, consequences. Like if you click on a link, maybe it submits something so they might even be afraid they actually cannot use it. There's a lot of examples like that.

Where where you have to go in after and that's where the manual testing comes in. And also just an understanding of, how like where the limits of WCAG are.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll stop there. Before I go into too much detail. I'm not sure if that answers some of the questions.

Nadine
That definitely answers. Thank you.

Luna
It's a fantastic because you just given people a glimpse into the fact that adhering to a standard doesn't mean it makes it accessible. The intervention, the human intervention, the manual testing is so much more important than having the perspective of users. So thank you.

Nadine
Yes, thank you very much. That was absolutely fantastic. And and oh my goodness. If we had more time we could do so much more. But I'm going to put it out there before we sign off.

Would you be willing to come back?

Stevie-Ray
Yes, we'd be happy to come back. And, you know, you have a few, the other teams at the Canadian Digital service coming on with, the design system.

I'm not sure who else is coming, but we really appreciate the work that you all are doing to build awareness and, we've definitely gotten a lot of inspiration and support from AAACT over the years.

And so thank you so much for helping the rest of government, understand how to not just be compliant, but how to create great experiences for people using assistive technology.

Nadine

Well, thank you again, for your participation in answering and, you know, being patient with us, with our convoluted questions. And so I think Luna, what we have left to do is sign off. So we're going to sign up for that. Thank you again, for being here. This will air very shortly. We'll send you the links and we'll add the links to our show notes so that everybody has them.

So I'm Nadine.

Luna
I am Luna. And until next time on Accessible Horizons.

Intro

That's a wrap on this episode of Accessible Horizons. We hope you picked up some practical tips along the way. Thanks for tuning in. Together we are building a more inclusive and barrier free public service. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It helps others discover the podcast. Join us next time for more conversations with your hosts, Nadine Charron and Luna Bengio.