Episode 44: Jess Shaw, England netball international, type 1 at the top of the game

Jess Shaw was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes on the evening of the worst trial of her life, then spent ten years pretending she did not have it.

Jess is an England netball international, living with type 1 diabetes. In this conversation with John she talks about keeping it quiet as a teenager, being sent home from a tour, a first England cap at a few days' notice, and what changed once she started talking about it. If you have ever hidden your diabetes to keep your place in a team, or you coach someone who might be, this one is for you.

Chapters
00:00 Welcome: how John and Jess met
04:33 Diagnosis at 13: the Leeds trial
08:47 The first rules, and a lot of lows
15:08 Why the first messages stick
18:03 Moving to time in range
19:09 A low HbA1c that hid the lows
20:50 Ten years of hiding it
23:57 Sent home alone at 16
25:10 Why sport needs a diabetes policy
28:43 Super League, England and injuries
34:50 First cap against Australia
38:34 Game day on injections
43:20 Insulin on board and exercise
44:36 A closed loop overnight
46:43 Building a game-day routine
47:44 Commonwealth Games
51:06 Semi-finals and staying consistent
59:23 What John heard
64:21 Jess: you are not alone
69:24 Thanks from John

Guest: Jess Shaw, England netball international, living with type 1 diabetes.
Host: John Pemberton, founder of The Glucose Never Lies, a paediatric diabetes dietitian, and a person living with type 1 diabetes.

A note on scope. Where John describes practice at Birmingham Children's Hospital, he is speaking in his clinical role there, and that sits outside GNL. It is a report of one specialist paediatric service, not GNL guidance, not a protocol, and not a recommendation to any other service or family. The support John gave Jess as an adult was through GNL's consultation service, not his NHS role, and her own diabetes team made the decisions about her treatment, including her pump. What Jess describes is her own experience. It is not a claim about what GNL, or any device, will do for anyone else, and it is not advice to anyone listening.

Links
Show notes: theglucoseneverlies.com/episode-44-jess-shaw-type-1-netball
Watch on YouTube: youtu.be/x3zsbZuffCQ
Previous episode: theglucoseneverlies.com/episode-43-tandem-control-iq-plus-mobi

Grace, our AI diabetes educational adviser, did not write a word of this. Credited anyway. Ask her anything: theglucoseneverlies.com/gnl-grace

Independent by design. The Glucose Never Lies® takes no sponsorship and no advertising. We run on education grants and listener donations. If this helped, buy the GNL a coffee (buymeacoffee.com/gnlfree).

Follow: Website, Instagram, LinkedIn, John on LinkedIn, X

Contact: collaboration, john@theglucoseneverlies.com; creatives, anj@theglucoseneverlies.com

For education only. Not medical advice and not a substitute for individual care; decisions about your care sit with you and your diabetes team.

© The Glucose Never Lies Ltd, company number 16733595. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_03 0:08

She's completely fine. And then the next morning it was like I was contagious, like I couldn't see any of the girls. I wasn't allowed to the match. I wasn't allowed to be in and around the team. And then at that point they sent me home on a train at 16 on my own after experience a low at night, had an ambulance called. I think that situation probably was against me, and I felt like I was contagious, even though you can't catch it. So yeah, I think that really kind of scarred me.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

How are you doing, Jess? You alright?

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Yeah, good, thank you. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, all good, thanks. I guess before we get into um obviously the things around netball and managing type 1 diabetes, it's always important to know where people's paths meet. And the listeners here will be no not shocked to hear it'll be me sort of getting stuck right in. So we came to uh me and my daughter came to an event in Birmingham, uh at JRDF or Breakthrough Type 1 diabetes event in Birmingham where you were speaking, and uh you were obviously telling your story around what it was like to live with type 1 diabetes going through um sort of adolescence and then obviously making it way all the way to play to with England this time in the Commonwealth Games, um, and obviously some of the challenges that you you encountered, and it was really interesting to hear. And obviously, me being Mia was thinking, do you know what? She's got things coming up. I reckon that uh a pump that we're taking it off for the netball and then to go back to injections for a bit would be perfect. So I just came up and basically said, I think that's what you need to do. So uh how was that for you?

SPEAKER_03 2:23

To be fair, I'm glad that I actually met you because I think since being on the pump, it has kind of changed how I've been able to kind of manage my diabetes in and around kind of my net ball and different types of training. Um, but I think it's had a huge impact in terms of recovery, even my sleep at night, just waking up and actually knowing that my sugars have been perfect throughout the night is something that I've struggled with being on injections. So I think yeah, it's had a massive impact, and it's only been a a couple of months maybe, or maybe a bit longer now, I can't remember. But yeah, I've seen a huge difference in kind of yeah, recovery in between sessions and things like that. So yeah, I'm actually glad that we uh met and our paths crossed. Um, and you was so adamant in getting me on a pump. So yeah, it's worked out.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, I guess for anyone listening, I didn't just obviously get a pump out of the cupboard. I know uh Jesse's consultant pretty well and um was able to sort of bridge the gap from there. So we were able to kind of make sure that that was done all over board, just in case people are listening and wondering how that happened. But yeah, and I guess also for me, um, was got a massive part of my life. My mum she started a netball club called um YWCA Berry. Boy God, from my sister started playing, so that's gotta be like 30 odd years ago, which has turned into a fairly big club now. And she managed the Manchester Thunder for a little bit when Tracy Neville was the sort of manager there. And my mum used to get me dragged me into all sorts. I remember defending Karen Gregg for a little bit at some point. Um and if anyone knows netball, they'll know Marianne Lofthouse and Chris Evans, and they're always around at our house watching the netball, and they were kind of round certainly when when you were playing in the Commonwealth games, and I said that I'd been doing some work with you, and they were uh they'll be listening to this as well. So if I didn't mention them, I would be getting strung up at this point if I didn't mention them. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm netballed through and through. So for me, it was a bit of a personal thing to to kind of make sure that um England had the best chance of doing well with the the players of performing the best. So yeah, I guess that's kind of how our how our paths met. But one thing that I wasn't obviously I didn't know at the time is kind of what your story was. So kind of when did all diabetes start? Was it kind of right at the beginning or was it sort of way through? Do you want to talk us through kind of your I guess your life without diabetes up to a point with playing netball? Because obviously you were playing netball for a good part, and then when diabetes came into your life, what what was that like and when was it and what was the impact?

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Yeah, so I started playing netball when I was in year two, so started very young because my older sister played, so kind of went to her training sessions and then kind of joined in some of her sessions and just kind of yeah, took to it then. Um and I then got diagnosed with diabetes when I was 12, 12, 13, I think it was. Um, but kind of the lead up to that, like I was doing net ball quite a lot. I'd been in like the county, been selected for numerous different pathways at that point. And then I think it was actually for I was at a trial in Leeds, um, and Tracy Neville actually was the person in charge at that point. Um, and I remember turning up to these trials. Um, and it was probably the worst trial I think I've ever done in my life. Um, but at that point, obviously I didn't know I had type 1 diabetes, but I yeah, I turned up to the trial, was playing. My dad was thinking, what's going on with her? Like I couldn't catch, couldn't throw, I was so thirsty. I think I drank litres and litres of water, and it was just nothing was kind of clenching my first and then run into the toilet. Um, yeah, the trials finished, didn't get selected, which was no surprise with how I performed. But that evening I actually got rushed into hospital. I was on the way back from Leeds with my dad and we stopped off at a petrol station, and I just felt really weak, really faint. And my dad was like, Oh, get you a chocolate bar. And I was like, Okay, yeah. So he came out with a Mars bar, which probably at the time was not great because my sugars were obviously really high at that point and didn't know um that I obviously had type one. So had this chocolate bar, got back. Um, and my mum actually did taste my wee, um, and it was just like pure sugar. She just dipped her finger in because we didn't have any of the ketone sticks or whatever. And then, so yeah, she tasted my wee and she's like, that was the sugary thing that she's had.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

And at that point how does that come about? Because I mean, I'm not sure people listening, like their mums on average, will be kind of like this feeling on well sort of dipsticking the kids' we see. Did she got a medical background or something?

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Yeah, so she is a healthcare assistant, she works within the NHS, so she does have a bit of a background and that type of stuff. And because we didn't obviously have any of the strips or anything at that point, she was like, oh, just try it. And because my auntie, uh my cousin has type one, um, and she was like, Oh, you know, if you do actually taste it, it'll be like pure sugar. So they tried it. Um, and then at that point, straight to hospital, arrived at hospital, they did all the tests, and they were said that I like had been in ketosis for quite a while um and had high sugars for quite a while, and I was just very weak. Um, and just yeah, I guess from that point found out that I was type one diet diabetes. Um, and then yeah, kind of never really, I guess, looked back from that point. Um stayed in hospital for quite a few weeks um on the child ward. Um, and then yeah, I guess got to grips with it all, had lots of like meetings with doctors, etc. Um, and then I remember kind of leaving the hospital with my devices and then just kind of, I guess, figuring it out from there with the help of the NHS and kind of like my family and things like that. But yeah, I think before I actually knew that I was type one and the lead up to kind of like the trials and stuff, um, I'd lost a lot of weight. Um, so people did actually think that I could have been anorexic because I wasn't really eating. I was extremely skinny. Yeah, kind of now looking back some of the symptoms that I had actually knowing that that's actually some of the symptoms that can lead to obviously knowing that you've got type one diabetes.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

So that obviously is like a massive I because obviously I work at the children's hospital at Birmingham and I always it always appears to me anyway that one of the most challenging times to get it is obviously very, very young because for the parents that's just emotionally very difficult, but also practically very difficult because like young kids just don't sit still and they're all over the place. It's really difficult. But then I think the second most challenging is is around that sort of adolescent period because most young people are just getting out of the wing of their mum and dad, they're getting a bit of independence, they're going out with their mates, they're starting to have sleepovers and all that type of thing, and all of a sudden it's just like you're back under the wing because you know, kind of need some find out what is going on. Like, how do we manage this? What's gonna happen? Then you know, everything's kind of analysed, and it just brings that person who was getting independent right back under their wing. Was that your experience or was your experience different to that?

SPEAKER_03 9:10

I think maybe slightly different. I think obviously having it, I was quite obsessed with actually not letting my sugars go below four and not going above eight.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Okay, why?

SPEAKER_03 9:23

So as soon as they um I was really focused because I think when I first got it, I was like, oh my god, you hear about obviously if your sugars are high, like how that can affect your health and losing limbs and all that type of stuff that with high sugars obviously can affect it. Um I obviously wasn't fully aware of that at the time. So I think I was oh my god, I can't let them go above a certain range. And I used to have a lot of lows um and I didn't actually realise the effect of lows as well, that can also have on your health and things like that as much as highs. So yeah, if they went up above like 8.1, I'd be injecting. I'd be like, no, they need to come back down. And if I'd had a low before they got too high, I was then injecting again, really trying to keep in that range at the start. And especially with all the exercise that I was doing, because I used to do a lot of running in cross-country and I was doing my netball on top of that. Um, I had a lot, a lot of lows that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

I was gonna say that the the recipe there, if you ever if anyone's listening, if you want a lot of lows, the recipe is you put together is lots of bolus insulin on board plus lots of exercise, like you are in for a lot of trouble. And it's it's so difficult because you're giving conflicting messages. One is, oh, I, you know, however you picked it up, it's like you've got to stay between four and eight basically the whole time, which leads you to putting lots of insulin in. But then on the flip side, you're also told that doing lots of activity and exercise is good for your health, and it's something that you love as well, but you absolutely love it, and you've just got these two conflicting things because as you know now, activity and exercise with lots of insulin on board, you are just like quadrupling the the potency of the insulin, which is so difficult when you've got uh got a lot on board. So yeah, that sounds like true. So what what were you on back then? You obviously and then were you on insulin, long acting, insulin with fast acting at mealtimes and corrections?

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yeah, so I was on Nova Rapid and then I was on Levermere in the evening. And yeah, I guess at the point I also think when I got diagnosed, I was obviously taking in all the things that they were saying. I also probably went quite in on myself and quite isolated in terms of actually me figuring out how I was gonna deal with it. Obviously taking the advice on board, but in a way thinking that I potentially knew how to do this on my own. Um and I guess um at the time when I was diagnosed, I think I was only young, and at that point I didn't want because they say you're not gonna get as far in your netball or other things at that time, and I was thinking like I'm definitely now gonna, I guess, to them, I'm not gonna let this kind of stop me, even though there was lots of ups and downs and hiccups up until now in terms of managing it. Um I think yeah, I think now looking back and when I was younger, like the effect that you can also potentially have on some of your close ones, especially with the amount of lows that I was having from a young age, I'd yeah, befitting, wouldn't know, had ambulance calls to the house, um how you act potentially when you go low.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

I didn't and then I'd come back around and I guess I never knew what had fully happened because I don't remember it, which was quite scary, especially because they've seen it from a different point of view of what I've seen. I'm just like, oh, I'm back, like I'm fine now. Um, and kind of probably the effect that that could have also had on like my parents and things, and like that worry of me going away. And I'm like, oh, why are they still messaging me or why is my mum being like, well, your sugars are there too? Like, like actually she's seen it, I guess, in the front hand, like she's been there from it all. And the worries that she's seen when I've not been like around like in terms of I guess coming back round and not really remembering it. Um and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I do um I do diabetes camps and I've seen like a few kids have severe hypos where they're fit in. And it's quite quite the experience because even as a healthcare professional, you know when you deliver the gook on, you know they're gonna come round, but it's still such a scary experience because it's like a 10-15 minute period where you can't do anything, you're just like watching thinking, is this person gonna come back around and become around? And you know that they are, but at the same time, you're still like it's in the back of your mind, and obviously as a healthcare professional and you've got the training to know that that's the case. But as a as a parent of a young person who hasn't got that, who's it's that's such an emotional attachment and bond to that person who's in front of them and they're experiencing that must be yeah, just massively intense. So yeah, I can imagine there's there's probably been times where you probably won't have seen you like the tears that your mum and dad will have had, I'm sure. Um different times we won't have shown you that, but I can imagine it's extremely stressful, and you certainly see that with some of the the parents who who we support where yeah, where I am. I just wondered what you know, kind of you mentioned there. Obviously, you had if you've got a strong internal drive, quite clearly from what you're describing there, you're saying, look, you know, kind of this is not gonna stop me, I'm gonna get stuck in. Uh but at the time, and possibly still now, um it really just struck me with what you said, because what you said was, I was allowed to go between four and eight. So you've picked up on certain messages that's been education has provided to you. One of them was don't let your sugars go between four and eight, and the other one is you're probably not gonna be able to do the same level of activity. Those two things that stuck with you right from the beginning. And I'm forever, forever saying that, you know, that the information you receive on the first couple of days as a newly diagnosed family or person is the most important because you've got a life-altering condition. Therefore, when people are coming to educate you, they're gonna tell you the most important things in the first few times that they see you. So that is gonna sink in and it's gonna sink in and stay there. So it's such an important bit of information and how that is presented and how it's given to to people. I just wondered, Kenya, kind of where did you you pick those couple of messages up from? You don't have to say names or anything, was it kind of nurses? Was it doctors? Was it something that you just picked up out of reading the books? How did how did you sort of formulate those quite strong feelings around those couple of things?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

So I think around my sugars, I think it was the nurse and doctor that I had when I first got diagnosed in kind of the first few days of what they were saying. And I think at that point I was like, well, I'm gonna have to do these, and that's probably why I did have so many hypos, but in my head, I was like, well, at least they're not going high, or like at least they're not going above that, and I've got less likely. But at that point, I probably didn't know what also hypos can kind of do to the brain and things like that. So like I was really focused on that bit. And then another doctor at the time was just kind of saying, actually, we're not sure where you'll be able to get within sport, and like actually is sport the best thing whilst managing your diabetes, and probably not. Um, and I think at that point I was just like, well, no, that's what I want to do. And I think I'm quite a stubborn person when I get kind of set on something. I'm set on it, and I kind of want to prove, I guess, people wrong. So I think that kind of I guess maybe that's why I'm here now and kind of competing at the top level in that ball from what I kind of got from the doctors at the start, being like, actually, is this possible? Well, I'm gonna prove it is. And there's so many athletes out there now with type one that are playing at the top level as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

So yeah, I think I'd I'd I'd probably say that your drive is was with you before diabetes for sure. So regardless of what you have, is as you you you kind of walked horns on that and you was like, all right, you just need a bit of fuel to kind of fire and you're away. But yeah, no, it's just really interesting because I think it is really difficult because I can think when I first was diagnosed myself, it's more so when I when I started educating and teaching people, and we were doing fingerprints then, it was quite difficult because the the talk was oh between four and eight. But now we've got continuous glucose monitoring. It's more like if you can get 70% between four and ten and don't have any more than four percent below four, that's a really great spot to be in. It's such a much more easy to understand, but also easy to review in action rather than keep all your glucose levels between four and eight as much as you can. Well, that just like we know, that's not realistic. So actually having that now, hopefully, for people might not kind of get that same message of, yeah, of course it'd be great to have every glucose level between four and eight, but it's just not reality. Not if you're going to play high level of netball and run around and live a fairly dare to say normal life, but do the things that other people would do and just take for granted. But I think, yeah, that that's it's it's almost like an impossible message when you're on fingerpricks and injections and loads of exercise.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah. Um I think even the first like year of having it, I think I had of like a normal HBA1C in terms of that, like I think it was like four point something or five.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

So did you get praised for that when you went back to the clinic?

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Yes, but then they were like, that's because you're having so many lows that actually brought you down so much. It was kind of yeah, but then yeah, so I needed to kind of adapt that.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Um Yeah, I mean if you're if you're thinking, oh, the lowest HBO and C the better. There is the the kind of the massive caveat of if that comes to the cost of frequent hypos that leads to a situation where you're having severe hypos and you become hypoglycemic unaware, that really, really does increase the risk of really, really bad things happening in the future. You know, some people will have something such as dead in bed syndrome where they don't pick up on their lows because they've been low for so long for so many times, and that's unfortunate that that actually does happen. Getting a driving license is almost impossible if you've got um impaired hyperaweness. A little bit easier now with CGM, but I think that's kind of it's such an important message if people are listening, is kind of like often you think high glucose levels are you know like the sole problem, but the reality is on the flip side, if you drive a HVR and see as low as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can at the risk of hypos, you are gonna um have some some downsides to that, absolutely. That's sounds like that was your early, early part. So, how long did that last for? So obviously that and that's also almost impossible to keep up for a long period of time because the level of finger pricking and insulin dosing and hypotreatment, you must have been like just managing your diabetes 24-7.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah, I think it I think it lasted till probably I was about 17. Um and then I went to then I went to university, and I think that's kind of when it changed more. Like obviously it wasn't it was obviously really thingy at the start, but kind of till 17 I was still trying to keep it kind of within that age. Like you were talking about driving license. I couldn't get my driving licence at first. Um, I had to wait until like I'd got better control in terms of not having the lows. Um so I think I maybe got it when I was 18, 19. So like I had to wait, which was frustrating, but then I think that also then I was like, well, I need to do this because I need to be able to drive to get to training and all of this type of stuff. Um yeah, I think it was kind of that period. Um, and I think quite a lot of it was probably down to me being quite naive with having type one and kind of actually acknowledging that I had it. Like I'd probably say until I was maybe 24, 20, no, 25-ish. And that was only like five years ago now, I would you wouldn't know I had it unless you knew me really well. Like I wouldn't tell anyone if I was having a low, I'd be like, Oh god, I don't really want to go and get like a chocolate, but like I didn't want people to see me having that type of stuff. Um, I tried to keep it really like I guess not obvious to people.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

And it was bad because even like when you go on, like, I don't know, and they say, Have you got any medical conditions? I'd be like, No, which is really bad now looking back on it and yeah, it's not something that I'd agree doing. But I think I was just so embarrassed of having it. Um, and I guess I probably didn't want to be different. Um, and I think, yeah, only the last couple of years, five years or so, that I thought I do have it, and actually, how can I help the others that are also having it and going through the same situations or different ones and we can learn off each other? But like the camps that you were talking about, I remember when I was younger, people being like, you need to go on these camps, you need to do this. And I was like, No, why do I want to go to a camp with everyone that's got type one diabetes? I was like, absolutely not. Do I want to go on them? But now looking back and kind of coming to the one that I spoke at, I was like, oh, actually, if I did go to them, how could have that helped and maybe changed, I guess, my outlook for like the 10 years where I pretended that I didn't have it?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Yeah, I mean, do you think there's any element of I'm just thinking it sounds like you're extremely competitive. It sounds like, you know. Kind of you you take on a challenge. Did you feel like if maybe your competitors or your coaches or your whatever knew that you had type one that that would give them either an advantage over you or you would feel or perceive that it was p kind of a weakness, or am I off base there, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 22:16

No, I think it could have been. But I think if they didn't know, they were never going to use it against me. Not saying that people would use it against you. Yeah. But like, I know I did mention it in the um event that we were at about um just an example that I think really made me shut down with it. I was on a tour um at 16 in Scotland. Um, I had a real bad low in the night, we'd played quite a lot of netball, hadn't quite managed it properly. Went to bed, sharing a room, an ambulance got called, everything happened, the ambulance said, Oh, she's fine now, she's come back round, like she's completely fine. And then the next morning it was like I was contagious, like I couldn't see any of the girls, I wasn't allowed to the match, I wasn't allowed to be in and around the team. And then at that point they sent me home on a train at 16 on my own after experienced a low at night, had an ambulance called. I think that situation probably kind of probably factored how I actually then dealt with it for the next couple like 10 years. Um, because I was so worried at how that situation played out and how it was kind of used against me. And I felt like I was contagious, even though you can't catch it. So yeah, I think that really kind of scarred me.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, and I would I I can a I can imagine that it absolutely, especially at 16 as well, because you're just sort of like branching out, especially going, you know, on your own and then training on the way back. And I know that um Chris Bright and Rob Andrews, and there's a few people from Exeter as well, they've been sort of lobbying within Parliament to um basically they've they've contacted all of the leading sports organisations across the country and they found that only two of them have got um a policy on diabetes, yet there's so many people who are going, therefore, coaches don't really understand it, team managers don't understand it, therefore you you know I I wouldn't obviously ignorance, but there's probably also an element of just scared because I see all the time with school teachers, you know, kind of they've got such a responsibility when a young person goes to their school because like the carb counting for them and they're doing the insulin injections or they're doing things with a pump, and it's it's such a huge responsibility. And if you're a volunteer, especially a volunteer at some of these things, because I know from my mum's experience, like there's so many volunteer hours in Netball. It's just like there's no there's no payment, there's no payment for that. There ain't no payment for that. So, you know, kind of you're doing that, and all of a sudden, you know, kind of someone's coming to you and they're going, like, Oh, you got this girl, she's um she's had severe hypos, and you know, kind of there, you're gonna be like, uh no thanks. I'm good for that. I just want to turn up on the weekend and help these young girls play. But I do think that's where, you know, certainly know Chris and Rob Andrews and the ex-Tod people, they're looking to really sort of challenge some of that stigma and actually show that with the right information, that there is actually simple things you can do and put in place to support people that means that you're you feel safer, but also you don't end up then stopping the participation or you having, I'm not saying it would have solved your negative experience. I'm just saying, you know, kind of if that kind of information would have been out there, stigma taken away and the opportunities to just think about it differently and just like anything, everything seems really difficult to manage until someone goes, Do you know what? These are the three things you need to look after. And if you look after these three things, you're pretty much gonna be sweet. And if someone explains that to you and you can uh gives you some sort of information in a way that you can action that, all of a sudden the mysterious becomes understandable, and you know, you kind of hopefully that piece of work as it progresses will be something that um will mean that maybe the experiences that you experience won't be as as frequent. So I think it's great that you're kind of willing and open to talking about those experiences because I'm sure there's so many people who are listening to this who've had maybe not with necessarily netball or sport, but I've had similar experiences where they felt singled out or similar experiences where they felt like, do you know what if someone just knew a bit more and it was a bit simpler for them, I would have actually not felt as on my own. Um, but I can imagine what you've just described there of at that point you're playing a high level of netball, you've just been sent home in a train on your own and everyone else is playing, and you're like, if I didn't have diabetes, this wouldn't be happening. So do you know what? I'm gonna just crack on like I haven't got diabetes and tell nobody because if this is the result, then I I'm not interested.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Yeah, exactly. And I think, yeah, I think that's what I I guess I did for the next 10 years. And if they were low, I potentially have played when they have been low, but like guzzling a loo crusade and been like, oh, I can go back on court because if I don't go on court now, the next person's probably gonna go on, or they're not gonna then play me for the rest of the game when I'm like they'll be okay in however long. Um so yeah, I think that's how I kind of I guess coped. Probably not the best way, but um, yeah, it's kind of how I dealt with it.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Can't been too bad because you ended up playing for England, so you did you did all right.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah, it's up.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

So I'm just actually gonna walk through some of that because I was I was I was looking at your bio and uh you know checking some things out, and I checked out obviously with you beforehand. So super league debut for the Yorkshire Jets at 15, which is pretty impressive. So that's obviously, you know, kind of two two years also, two and a half years after diagnosis, you've managed to kind of get to a point where you've really pushed yourself to to be playing at that level, and that led to selection for the Vitality Roses programme, which is kind of like the is that I'm right in saying that's the kind of like the the bring through, the progression squad, development squad.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Um, so I was in England under 17s, 19s, 21s, and then the full-time program came around in like 2016, I think it was, and then kind of got selected in as the first cohort into that, and that's kind of like the wider group of the senior program.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Okay. Um, and what was it like at that point? Like, you know, you're that's major, you're kind of at the national level and you're playing. What was the kind of chat around diabetes? You just keep it, you say, I've got it, I'm I'm managing this, or did anyone ask any questions? What was it like? I'm just interested.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

I think it was all kind of kept to myself, I think, until kind of like the last five, maybe a bit longer. Like I did see some specialists um throughout kind of my time coming into kind of the full-time program in 2016. But I don't think I was in a position where I was open to it. And I think in order to get the support and help, I needed to be in a position where I felt like actually I'm gonna take what they say and actually open up about it. Um because I think I just kind of just didn't want to be different. I didn't want I wanted to pretend that I didn't have it and I just wanted to kind of do what everyone else was doing and they were eating sweets, I wanted to eat sweets to a certain extent. Like I just I guess, yeah, just didn't want to be different. And I think going sorry. I think going back to kind of your point before about actually people having more knowledge. Like I think, especially within Netball, I don't think there is enough kind of knowledge that coaches know um and know how to deal with it. So I think when I was kind of in um the England netball setup, they tried, but they I don't think they knew potentially how to deal with it and who to kind of contact to speak and actually make the effortfully to kind of actually this player has it, how can we best support her? Or um, and I guess it's a two-way stream in terms of I wasn't open to them. So I think it's yeah, it's just trying to find that balance a bit more within coaches. Actually, do they know a bit about it, what to do if X, Y, and Z happens?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

I think it's just also being able to have an open and honest conversation, isn't it? As well, I think often people will feel like, especially medical professionals, they need to have the answers and they need to know what it is. But often you just need to be open and listen. You know, kind of this is my experiences, this is what I'm doing, these are the problems I'm having. You know, can you help me? You don't have to have the answer there and then, but you can certainly go out and find out. I think it's just that skill of being able to speak to someone and listen to what their their issues are. And you don't have to you don't have to solve it there and then you just need to kind of know some way or someone who can help you. But yeah, I think that openness comes without not stigma is the right word, but just kind of a lack of understanding because you know, like you said, when you're when you people think of type 1 diabetes, often they will think of either people having a severe hyper or you know having problems with the eyes or the feet. They don't think about the millions and millions of people who are just you know cracking on with their life into normal things. Um but I want to think you said 2021. So you've had a double fracture of your ankle, is that right? So have you have you done that?

SPEAKER_03 30:42

So I had an ankle lateral ligament reconstruction um and a fracture inside the inside of my ankle bone. Um I I don't know if this basically I've had two operations on my ankles. I can't fully remember which one came first. But I landed on someone's foot and my ankle just kind of went. And that's happened in terms of both on my left and right, and my ankles are quite hyper hypermobile. I'm quite like, I guess, flexible in terms of like they do go quite a lot. But yeah, when um I guess they happened, um, it was quite uh an annoying time. Um, because I remember my first one happening um and I was actually getting selected to go um on a tour for the seniors. And then it happened and I couldn't then obviously go on tour because I was having an operation which came, yeah, at a hard time. But I I guess I finally got my cap for England, even though it's come a lot many years later than kind of what I'd probably hoped. Um I still kind of I guess got there. Um but yeah, I've had quite a few other injuries because I'd done my ACL. Um 16, I think it was, 16, 17. And I don't know if that was to do with kind of my control with my diabetes. Actually, was I recovering pop properly? Um, and I am a person that likes to train quite a lot. So I think the factor of probably it all and kind of the management of my sugars, and like to be fair, I actually didn't know until I spoke to you about this, is like is the food actually getting into the right places in my body? Like, am I recovering properly because of my sugars, or are my sugars now going high and then not recovering properly in time for the next session? And I guess kind of the effect that actually all does have, which then I do think played probably quite a big part in terms of the injuries that I had quite early on.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

So I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, you've got a bit of steel about you, you're an absolute trooper. See, you obviously had that you're diagnosed with diabetes at 13, and then you've obviously had that quite negative experience at 16, followed by some pretty nasty injuries along the way. Um, and then you've kind of finally been yours later than expect late later than you would have desired, but you're there, you get selected for England at 28, is that right? Against the Australia series. So tell me a bit about that. So we've always talked about the diabetes and whatever, but ultimately you're an athlete at heart. That's kind of the diabetes is kind of like you're an athlete with diabetes, not diabetes, you know, personally with diabetes is 10 who does a bit of netball. You're you're an athlete first. So you've obviously set your sights on playing at the top level and playing, you know, for England. And it doesn't come any bigger than against the best team in the world in 2024. So talk me through about when you get the telephone call or you how how does it how does a selection happen? Tell me about how the selection happens.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Um yeah, so being part of the full-time programme, we have like some days where we'll have selection if we've got up-and-coming tours. So it happened in I think August, maybe, or might have just been a bit before. We had a few trials kind of match play internally, where there'll be selectors kind of watching. And actually, I wasn't successful in terms of actually getting on the tour originally, which I was really gutted about, but it was my first time back in the programme. I just knew that I needed to just keep working on me and kind of just give it a bit of time. And at that time, I was struggling with a bit of a knee injury, had a few issues going on that I'd got knocked in the season. My knee wasn't in the best of places. The girls go out on the tour. Um, and I was then off feet for a period of time because of my knee. And I think I'd just started back running maybe a week before. Oh, it might have been actually that same camp. And I remember um Anna, who's the head coach at the moment for England, just being like, you need to do this, this, and this being quite on me. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, okay. Like, oh, I've just ran for the first time for however long. Why is she being like so on it? And I was like, okay. And then at the couple of days into that camp, um, Anna actually um pulled me in, and she was like one of the players out in Oz, which obviously was Net MacCalf at the time, who'd found out she was pregnant. Um, because everyone obviously knows I just had Miller. So we're looking to fly you out. And I was thinking, my god, like I've not been training, I've not really trained with the girls that are out there. I'm flying out to Australia. Um, so I left camp on that Wednesday and I flew out on the Saturday. Um, so it was a bit of a whirlwind. I was like, I need to pack, get all my diabetes stuff, like get out there. Um, and then I arrived in Australia um and then got my first cap against the world's best, um, which was a bit crazy um and nerve-wracking because I hadn't played with the girls really, because I'd not many have played um in terms of they were in my super league team at the time. So I was like, oh my god, I'm going out against the world's best. Haven't really played with the girls that I'm about to play with. Oh my god, how's this gonna go? But yeah, it was amazing. And I, yeah, I guess I wouldn't take any of it back. Um, it was a bit of a whirlwind, but I do I remember going out on the court and I think we got like 93% centre passed to goal. I was thinking, wow, that was a great start, considering I hadn't played the girls around me. So yeah, it was a good way to get my first cap. Yeah, a bit of a whirlwind at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

So I'm gonna sort of now bring in basically where we met. So just tell me a little bit about how you would either think about managing your diabetes during sort of this time. So you're sort of you're playing for England, you're at Loughborough Lightning at this point, and you're obviously you're in the sort of top rung. You've had, let's say, limited support from the actual setup side. You've maybe not engaged with your diabetes team where you were currently at. How are you, how are you going about managing your diabetes or your glucose levels around training and around um sort of competition time? Sort of what what what was your kind of go-to? What sort of numbers were you happy with? What was your did you have any consistent routine or were you sort of doing it on the fly?

SPEAKER_03 36:51

In terms of like currently, or just like Oh no, no, previously.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

So like when you was Yes, okay. So I say before I met you and you're you're on injections and you're you're coming up to a game. Let's just say you got a game on Saturday, you know, you you're playing at 11 o'clock. How what are you doing on Saturday morning before sort of we we'd sort of change across the pump and stuff? What what sort of would be normal for you? Um I think Or did you not have a normal?

SPEAKER_03 37:18

I think I did wing it quite a bit. Um and again, I think that was more because even though I I was still quite naive in terms of having it. So like I would eat, but like I probably wouldn't like how important is actually injecting 15 minutes before food, I'd kind of get hungry and be like, oh and I'd kind of give myself it roughly six units every time. Anything that I kind of roughly ate really. So in terms of that stuff probably not great in terms of like the pre-pre-game stuff. And as it came closer to games, I'd obviously be finger pricking, checking what my sugars were, and then I'd always like they're in like eight or something perfect, or they could be a little bit higher. Um if they were a bit higher, I'd be then trying to get myself interested in because for me when it became game time, I was like, I need to get my sugars perfect and below ten in order to kind of ideally perform at the I guess best I could. But I never quite got that right. Um and I think with the adrenaline and going out to games and stuff like my sugars used to used to shoot up to like 18, sometimes a bit higher, I'd say, sometimes like 23, and I'd be like, oh, and I'd be trying to inject while still playing. But again, then got to a point where if I didn't know what my sugars were to a certain extent, it wouldn't affect me.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Kind of like out of sight, out of mind.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

I mean, there's there's a massive psychology of that. There's a massive psychology, because I mean, if you see a number that you don't like, regardless, I mean, I that was one of the so probably bits first bit of information that I sort of said to you, is like, as long as your sugar's not that high, if like 15, it makes no difference whether they're 15 or 8. Like, makes no difference to your performance. And he was like, Oh, all right, really, but if you've got that in your mind, as soon as you see that number at like 15, 16, you're like, God, this is like it's gonna be a nightmare. This is all you know, kind of all of a sudden you your game's your mind's off the game and your mind is on the sugar level, and you think I'll take the insulin, and then you're giving the insulin, like, I'm gonna go down now, I'm gonna go down, what's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Yeah, um, so yeah, I guess during games sometimes I just probably wouldn't check till the end because I knew that it would be very unlikely that they were alone. If anything, they were gonna be probably more on the high side of things. Um, but then they'd crash quite a lot in terms of post-game. But yeah, like I I feel like I've only probably really nailed it after meeting you and potentially maybe a little bit before, um, in terms of getting a better control on it, just in terms of wanting to perform better and recover better. But yeah, I think I was just if I don't know what my sugars are, then I'm okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

I remember when we met your so we met with the the medical team and obviously um actually really interesting to me because you obviously had the the psychologist came and then you also have um like a performance coach as well, right? So there's like a three people who are on there, which I've always thought was quite quite good. But they was kind of like, yeah, um Jess sometimes is not as organized, a bit haphazard, and I obviously felt like that. I got that pretty quickly. I was like, Jess, are you still alive? Are you still there? It's like, yeah, I'm still there. I'm just just busy, you know, just doing my thing. It's like, all right, that's good, that's good. Um, but they were sort of saying they could tell a real difference, especially when you went low if you kind of over-injected, you know, obviously performance-wise. And I sort of this is really gets back to the point um I was sort of circling around was talking about if if people and sports coaches and people, even people with diabetes, obviously a lot of people as well, knew two things. Well, one is when you do activity with a bolus insulin on board in the last two hours, you're gonna put yourself in quite a tricky position because the how much it amplifies the action and the variability and the inconsistency of it just makes it super difficult to kind of get any consistency whatsoever. And the first you sort of when we're talking about that, and also knowing that realistically, as long as your glucose control is pretty in target most of the time, if you go high during like during exercise, it doesn't make no difference to your performance, um, unless it's very, very high. So, you know, those two bits of information are important. But we kind of came up with the 321 program, which, well, first of all, we we change you across to a T-slim pump, which um is obviously one of these hybrid closed loop systems, which I think you've already said that one of the biggest things for you was overnight. So when you do lots of exercise, sometimes you go low afterwards and then sometimes you go high. But when you've got a system that's just got, you know, to look after your glucose level overnight and keeps it in target, then you get the recovery and you get the sleep. So what tell me about the differences from changing from the injections to the pump that does the automatic adjustments to your overnights? What was what was was it very very was it very noticeable or just a little bit noticeable?

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Yeah, I think it was quite a bit noticeable. I think in terms of like just waking up and it's just been like a straight line and they've been like 5.4 all night, and I'm like, oh wow, I didn't think that was possible compared to kind of what I used to have. Either they'd go just be like 13 and they'd go a bit higher, then they'd suddenly drop because I'd potentially wake up in the night and be like, oh what my sugars, oh they're a bit high, and then just give myself some insulin during the night. Um so I think actually just having been on the pump, it just kind of stopped that. Um and it also kind of just takes the pressure slightly off me.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Um because I know it's doing it all itself and it's kind of set to what my body is and like how much it needs and that type of stuff, rather than me being just guessing and potentially not remembering what I'd done a couple of hours before or I mean I'm just smiling and laughing now because I've to try one of the new devices that's come out.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

I've gone back to insulin pens just for a couple of weeks to kind of see what the case is. And I tell you, I've had three hypos in the last five or six nights, and my wife is not happy because I didn't keep my glasses by the side of the bed, and this thing's gone off, and it the writing's so small on it. I was trying to press it and I couldn't action the low line, it kept beeping off. She's like, Will you turn that thing off or what? And it's just kind of like I had to take myself downstairs, and I could have still couldn't find my glasses. I was like, Oh my god, get me back on that pump now. Just get me back on that pump. God damn it. And I wonder if you want to go back to injections for this is ridiculous. But I actually love the fact of not being attached to the pump. I absolutely love it, but I don't think it's worth the overnight for me. But yeah, so so the overnights make a big difference. And then I know one thing I think probably that I was not saying adamant about is like the only way you're gonna really get on top of this is if you have a structured approach rocking up to the games, which is three hours before as you're mealing your insulin so the food can get into your muscles by the time you start, and also that you don't have too much of that bolus insulin on board before you before you actually perform is the first thing. But Then a second thing I've talked about this on the show quite a bit before is when you're on these systems, it's great because it adjusts the insulin all the time. But leading up to a game, that's the last thing you want. You don't want the pump all of a sudden running loads of extra insulin in, and you also don't want it underplaying it either, because it can send you either way. But if you then turn the loop feature off, or you just take the pump off completely, which you did, and just give a couple of units via pen to replace, you get that level of consistency as you go through. So therefore, when you start, you only need a little top up of glue code. What was it like? Because I know we were having a laugh and we were sort of saying there's one game where you play in Australia at like nine o'clock in the morning or something like that. You're just gonna have to get up at six. Like you're gonna need to fuel, so you're just gonna have to get up at six. I just wanted to see in your face. So you're just like it was it was a dagger. It was a dagger you was chucking at. Tell me a little bit about uh has that made your training and your games easier? Is what sort of difference has that been potentially? Or it might not have been a great deal of difference. Because I know the the staff, when I talked to the staff afterwards, they were sort of like, yeah, this has made quite a bit of a difference in terms of the consistency of her glucose levels. Now she gets the overnight recovery as well as then a lot more consistency during the practice and play.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Um yeah, especially kind of over the Commonwealth in terms of that 6 a.m. start. But actually having that and sticking to that actually really helped. And I think it's probably the best control, because we had seven games that I've had in the games. Um, knowing that, yeah, I've got to get up at this time, my beans on toast, and enough beans on toast joined.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

That's all we also have a consistent meal, wasn't it? Because when you beans and toasts were it's like, what else could I get? It's like for seven games, just eat beans on toast because you know it's gonna work. So why why are you gonna change it when you play in Australia? Do not change from beans on toast. You can have it at half six in the morning, you have to have it at half six in the morning.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

So I had my beans on toasts, and that kind of really worked because I kind of knew what insulin to give myself, taking it off in terms of the pump 3, 2, 1, um, I think actually set me up really well for the games. Um, and I don't think in any of the games my sugars went above 15, whereas previously, with all the nerves and stuff and adrenaline and that how that kind of effect has on you. But previously games they'd be going up to like 20 plus, whereas actually there were 15 and they would come down, which I think really helped in terms of my performance and then recovery after the games. Um and then to be fair, I I didn't realise if obviously when you've had the pump on, you take it off after a few games, it took probably like three times for me to think. But I'd reconnect and then my sugars all of a sudden went quite high. And I was like, oh, why aren't they high? They weren't going really high, and I was like, Oh, like I've just played a game, they definitely shouldn't be going up. But because of where I'd had it, it got knocked in the game. So it bent kind of inside me. Um which took me quite a few times for that to happen to realise that I just need to quickly change it after a game. Yes, plenty of things. And it didn't happen on all of them, but on a few of them, I think that's the only when I was like, oh my god, what's happening to my sugars? I've just played a whole netball game and my sugars are like 20 something on the lane. But then when I kind of gathered that, I was oh quick me to change it, um, instead of kind of being like, what's happening to me? So that was, yeah, a bit tricky sometimes after games. But now I know that can happen. I'm a bit more aware.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

I mean, you can just like you say you just schedule in a change for afterwards, and you don't have any hassle with it, you know it's there, isn't it? But it's just kind of learning from experience. An important note that the 3-2-1 plan is from my own clinical work, built with Jess and her team just for her. Not a rule for the listeners, that's a chat with your own diabetes team. So the Commonwealth Games, you obviously got into the semi-finals, um, faced an Australia team who were obviously not happy. Okay, and beat by Jamaica, although the Jamaicans were happy, obviously. What what was your because you obviously played what was um great for me personally because I was obviously rooting for England, but obviously for you as well. But you got loads of game time there, like loads of game time. Were you expecting that much game time? Because I know when I was or when I was speaking to uh your coaches and you weren't there, I was like, I kind of need to know just from a planning perspective, is she gonna be playing the games or is she not gonna be playing the games? You know, is she gonna be sat on the sideline just so I can get a bit of a feel for you know, if she's gonna be coming around at half time, for example, is gonna be a different strategy than if she's gonna start. Um, but obviously you might not want to tell her is like, yeah, she's doing really well, she's gonna be playing. If they were right, you were you played you played loads apart from the dead Lego, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

Yeah. Um, no, it was a really cool experience. Obviously, the first Commonwealth games that I've been to, big competition at senior level. Yeah, it was just kind of really exciting. And I think actually Netball was one of the biggest crowds at the Commonwealth, which is really exciting. The atmosphere, um, and stepping out in front of all the fans. Um, yeah, it was a bit of a surreal moment um and playing against the world's best. Um, obviously, we didn't come out with the win, it was just a bit inconsistent in terms of like the whole 60 minutes as a squad. Um, but I think there's yeah, a lot of things that we can be proud of and hopefully take forward into bigger competitions coming up. Um, but I think in terms of being able to manage my diabetes across the games as well, um, I think was I think I was feeling a bit stressed at the start. Um, but then when we spoke about it and how we were gonna manage it and actually sticking to that and believing it, instead of me having doubt being like, oh, is this gonna work? Is this not? Um, I think that really played um a big part in terms of me not having to stress whilst I'm playing, oh my god, are my sugars gonna go up? Or no, the dropping, like how much leucos aid should I have? Um, and kind of talking with you in terms of actually having a bit of leucusade, but not having the whole leucose and then something else, or having quick fasting glucose at that point rather than something that's gonna take 15 minutes to get into my system. So I think knowing all that type of stuff really helped in terms of them staying a lot more stable throughout the games. Like they did go up and down here and there, but overall, in terms of how I've managed my diabetes before, I think it was probably the best control and kind of I guess consistency with it. And I think like you said before, consistency is really important. Like if you're not doing this, then you're never gonna know what your sugars are then gonna do if you're changing it every time, or different meals, like actually sticking with the basics and nailing that actually played a massive part in terms of how I could manage it throughout the commies.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Yeah, I mean, I I speak to young young athletes, but certainly young people who are involved in sports, they go, I don't want to like because it sounds a bit boring doing all that. I say, Well, you got a choice. If you really want to play and you want to play at your best, it's gonna cost you, it's gonna cost you the same boring meal three hours before and going in consistency. But if you want to perform well, like it's a guaranteed way to make sure that things are consistent. So it's a trade-off, it's always a trade-off. Diabetes life's a trade-off at times, but you know, if when you're playing at a top level, it really, really makes a huge difference. So the next big one is obviously potentially out in Sydney in Australia, the world championships next year, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Were you trying to get in the top three? Is that kind of is that is that what the aim is? Get there, get a medal?

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Yeah, I think for us it'd be to get into that final. Obviously, last World Cup they got into the final, got that silver medal. Um, and I think, yeah, definitely for the squad. Um, after the commies gutted that we obviously missed out just on a medal, like I think the fire in like the belief and the determination to kind of take the World Cup in Sydney is something that we're all kind of, I guess, striving towards and yeah, pushing each other in training to make us become better. So I guess the aim is to, yeah, get into that final come September next year.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

An additional challenge that females with type 1 diabetes have, more so than males, is managing the mental cycle. So that can be a real challenge because if these games and these trainings and these competitions come at a different time within the cycle, what worked one time might not work well as well the next time. What's kind of been your experience with, because you've had it at 13 where presumably obviously puberty was starting at that point, and then that's kind of kicking in, and then you've obviously we had various experiences across the time. Has that been a big factor in your your life with diabetes or not a big factor?

SPEAKER_03 52:31

Yeah, I think it's been quite a big factor, and again, I don't think I realised until like a couple of years ago from now. Um I think growing up I had quite a few miss periods, um, potentially down to how I controlled my diabetes. Overtraining. A lot of tra overtraining, yep. Um, played quite a big factor in terms of my miss periods. And then kind of more recently, um actually maybe two years ago, my sugars, like a week before my period, they'd just go really high. And I'd be like, oh my god, like am I coming down with something? Like, what's happening? Um and I'd be like trying to give myself more insulin. I'm like, oh god, normally I'd only have two units for this, but I'm having four units for this now. Like, what's what's going on with my body? Like, I'm so confused. Um, and then the week later, my period come, my sugars would then drop, and then I'd be giving myself the same same meal. But now I'm like, oh god, that's too much insulin. Like I'm going low, so then I'm like, oh, I need to drop it down. And for a while it kept happening to me, and it'd happen the next month, happened the next month. I'm like, what's going on? And now I'm like, oh, it's my period. My period's coming. Um, so now I'm trying to kind of know when my period's coming, so then I know actually what my sugars are doing. Essentially, do I need a bit more insulin? And just before the commies, I did actually go onto the pill to kind of see if that would help. Um, in terms of actually not having the high sugars. Yeah, which to be fair has helped massively. Um I have come back off the pill now to try and see if I can manage it in terms of especially now being on the closed loop. Actually, can I see if that actually helps balance it out? And they haven't been going as high when my hormones are starting to change. I don't know if that's because it's giving me more insulin without I guess me knowing that it's kind of doing itself.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Um yeah, and if we could set something up within the pump to to manage that week, so yeah, we could we could have a look at that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

But yeah, I think the yeah, is probably more that I can probably do and also kind of more information on it for like younger people that have got type 1 diabetes that maybe aren't fully aware of that yet or haven't kind of got to that stage. Um, because I know how hard it can be, like my little sister, which is why I think I'm more passionate and kind of want to make more of a difference and show her that anything's possible because she's just been diagnosed with it.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:53

And the struggles that she's kind of been had. And that kind of breaks me. So I'm like, oh no, you can still do this, you can do that, and like try and make it as easy as her for her as possible. Because yeah, she's uh massively struggling with that at the moment in terms of how she manages it. How old is she? The emotions. She's 21 now. So not quite little, but she's yeah, so younger than me.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Yeah, it's a little to you.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

Yeah. Um, but she only got diagnosed at 90, so she's only had it like two years.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

But they think COVID caused it.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna summarise what I've learned about you, what I think people will hopefully take away from this conversation in in various different pieces, and then you'll be able to tell me whether I've been listening or not at the end, number one. But then also number two is to kind of you can maybe leave the listeners with some things that you feel are about are important, uh, if kind of within your story, but also where people can check you out and you know, kind of keep abreast of your what's going on. So I think the thing that really stood out for me is you're obviously a really determined character. So uh, regardless of whether you had diabetes or not, you're quite clearly going to play netball at a high level because that's just kind of you Well, netball, you've got to do something at a high level because that's you just kind of got that competition wired within you pretty deep. And sounds like with your older sister who was a good netball player as well, so you've kind of got the the netball genes within the family. It really kind of hit me how many setbacks you've had along the way. Obviously, diabetes being a big one, but then I think that really big experience at 16 would sometimes turn people off, especially. I mean, I played a bit of representative cricket and played a bit of representative football, you know, played football for Everton and cricket for Lancashire and stuff. And when you get in there, it's like it's quite a you're competing against each other. Like you are competing against each other for those spots in like in a bigger thing. So having that and having been singled out and having such a negative experience, such as low blood sugar, but then going, Do you know what? I don't care, man, it's like I'm gonna crack on anyway. And maybe you know, you sort of went within in terms of how you managed it, but it didn't ch take away your determination, which I think is like um something that just really stood out. And then I've also had a broken ankle and three broken collarbones, and I know how hard it is to come back from serious injuries to do just to do normal stuff, never mind to be playing at international level. So I think um those things are um obviously good, real good characteristics. It's really interested to just kind of hear how the last five years or so you've maybe changed your perspective on how important it is, because maybe reflecting on some of the challenges you had maybe wouldn't have to be so challenging challenging if the people around you, whether it's educate whether it's coaches, whether it's teachers, whether it's friends and family, um would have been just more aware of how to help and what to say and what to do. So there wasn't such a kind of a stigma around it as such. But also your I guess desire and openness, like you've you've been so open in discussing some things in here, but I know for a fact, because people reach out all the time. There'll be somebody listening to this who will be exactly as you were at the age of 17. I'm doing this on my own. I don't need to tell anybody anything. It's all good and is kind of finding it really tough. We'll maybe just think, do you know what? A little bit of vulnerability of telling people and a willingness to kind of reach out and try new things and also carry on learning. So obviously, when we met, you've probably been managing your diabetes, you know, pretty well. Thank you very much for the last god nazier. Who are you telling me that you know it can't do this? But you're just like, Do you know what? I'll I'll kind of give it a go and we'll see. And you know, the opportunities there to kind of certainly for you with your with your netball have have benefited as a as a place of it. But yeah, I just it just it just really struck me sort of the last five years, then with your sister getting diagnosed, it's kind of like a time to maybe support the people who even don't know you, and which you are doing, but your sister as well, have gone, and do you know what actually you don't need to kind of like you might carry this all yourself? You can get some support, and there's there's lots of more information as well. The thing I always think with diabetes is people think it's really difficult to manage until they find a certain piece of information which turns it for them. And often the one is get your meal and insulin three hours before, and then the rest of it is a lot easier. Do not be sticking a massive dose of insulin and exercise together in two hours. It just is a recipe for disaster. And so some people get hold of that bit of information, it really changes how manageable exercise is. I think your yours is a good example of that. But yeah, so I would I'd say it's been really interesting for me to hear, and I want to say thank you for um just being as open as as you have been and kind of you know sharing your experiences because these I know for a fact people will be listening to this and going, Do you know actually I might have a conversation with someone and hopefully sports coaches, netball coaches, mums listening should be thinking, Oh, I wonder how uh YWCA could have a policy for diabetes, you know, kids with diabetes. You know, maybe Marion can get a stick-a-ore in at the um at the England Netball, and Chris Evans over at Liverpool can kind of think, well, do you know what actually maybe it's maybe there is something that we could do on an organizational level to just have a little policy, have a bit of information. XTOD is a great place for them to that's exercise for type 1 diabetes um Rob andrew. They're really putting some good stuff together just to help people support people, support people who want to get involved. So that was kind of that's my summary. Do you think I've done a fairly reasonable job there? Have I been listening alright?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

Yeah, you've not done too bad there, actually. I feel like you've nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Um Is there anything that you would like to leave the listeners with?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

No, I think it's just kind of actually not being afraid to reach out to people that are either struggling with type one or just your family and just knowing that you're not alone and there's gonna be some real hard days, um, but there's also gonna be, I was gonna say, some highs, some lows, and no point in tasting your sugars. But I think for me, reflecting back on kind of my I guess with my type one diabetes from when I got it up until now, I think um actually if I was a lot more open with it, and like you said, there's a lot more support out there in terms of it's not gonna be used against you, um, and you can still do X, Y, and Z and still get to here. And yeah, I think that's the main thing. And I think going back to when I became more open about it, came to one of my netball matches, she was in, I think she's four, five, and she's type one diabetic. And I think at that point when she came over to me and was like, oh my god, like you're so inspiring, and she did like a big story, and I've actually got that story um in a photo frame pinned up on my wall. Because I think I've made just a difference for her. But then I actually thought, actually, how can I help others? And knowing that they're not going through it alone, um, because I think it's quite easy because I've made it to the top, actually, oh, she must have not had any problems, or she's got there and she finds it easy when actually it's been, yeah, I guess such a hard kind of however many years I've had it now. Um, and I still don't get it right. Um, and I still have days where I look at my sugars and I'll start crying because I'm like, oh my god, why are they highlighting? What have I done different today? Like I've done nothing but my sugars are telling me something different. And like I still, yeah, battle with that. But I feel like I'm a lot more open to it. Um, and I think if you asked me to come on this podcast a couple of years ago, I probably would have ignored you and like blanked it and pretended, like, oh no, definitely not, and like um ignored anyone that tried to help me. Um, but I think that's just because it took me a lot longer to kind of be a lot more open to kind of manage it and actually celebrating that I can play netball, I can do this, and I am managing my type one diabetes, and other people can just go and eat a bag of sweets and stuff, and it's kind of coming to grips with what I guess works for the individual and you, and yeah, there's gonna be, I guess, some hard days. But like, I was worried that actually I'd come on this podcast and probably cry. Um, but actually, I think because I've been a lot more open with people and spoke a lot more openly about it, it actually helped me more mentally to what I probably did a couple of years ago because I'd just let it all build up, build up, and like someone would ask me something and I'd burst out crying and be like, I don't want to talk about it. Whereas now, actually, even if you're talking here and there a bit to people, it actually does offload quite a lot. Um and yeah, I just think if you put your mind to things like anything is achievable, and you know what it is, probably a little bit sweeter that I've got here and I have had to manage my type 1 diabetes, like I have made it to the top um in terms of my chosen sport that I've picked. Um, and I guess in a way proven people wrong. And yeah, I think it does. I actually probably wouldn't change it because I think it's made me the person I am today and kind of the more resilient person, like the more determined. And I think when things like even if I get a bit ill now, I'm like, oh well, it's not too bad because like and managing my diabetes and stuff, like I feel like people complain about potentially things a lot easier than what I guess people with type one because they deal with so much that they just think it's kind of normal to a certain extent. But yeah, I just think, yeah, no matter how hard it is, just reaching out to the people that are closer to you or people that actually are just living with it. Um because I think that's where you'll get your most from, and just knowing that you're not alone and you've experienced something that I guarantee probably another type one diabetic has experienced it, but they're also not talking about it. And you think, oh my god, no, they couldn't have done that or like this is weird. No, we've all probably been there at some point whilst managing our diabetes. Yeah, I it's just interesting to hear people's different stories and kind of all it together, and just yeah, um, don't be afraid to kind of speak up, speak out and Jess, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

That was brilliant, and I know a lot of people are gonna hear themselves in it. Everything we talk about and the evidence behind it is in the show notes at the glucose neverlies.com. See you next time.