Have you ever wondered how a person's humble beginnings can shape their journey to becoming an influential leader and advocate for diversity and inclusion? Join us as we sit down with a phenomenal woman, Joanne Conway, who turns her challenging childhood into a powerful narrative of resilience and success. Joanne, the Head of Inclusion and Culture, International at DLA Piper, shares her story of growing up in disadvantaged areas and offers practical tips on how to navigate uncertainty and build strong networks.
As we delve deeper into the conversation, we explore a topic that often stirs up discomfort – privilege. We share personal journeys of grappling with this concept and discuss how leaders can reflect on and address their privilege to foster inclusivity. Joanne even provides a sneak peek into our ongoing research on creating a framework for leaders to make systemic changes in organisations. The discussion doesn't stop there. We dive into the intricacies of diversity and inclusion in organizations, sharing our perspectives and experiences. We emphasize the need for patience, a strong foundation, and the crucial role of leaders in implementing diversity initiatives. So, tune in to enrich your understanding of diversity, inclusion, belonging, and equity in the workplace.
Have you ever wondered how a person's humble beginnings can shape their journey to becoming an influential leader and advocate for diversity and inclusion? Join us as we sit down with a phenomenal woman, Joanne Conway, who turns her challenging childhood into a powerful narrative of resilience and success. Joanne, the Head of Inclusion and Culture, International at DLA Piper, shares her story of growing up in disadvantaged areas and offers practical tips on how to navigate uncertainty and build strong networks.
As we delve deeper into the conversation, we explore a topic that often stirs up discomfort – privilege. We share personal journeys of grappling with this concept and discuss how leaders can reflect on and address their privilege to foster inclusivity. Joanne even provides a sneak peek into our ongoing research on creating a framework for leaders to make systemic changes in organisations. The discussion doesn't stop there. We dive into the intricacies of diversity and inclusion in organizations, sharing our perspectives and experiences. We emphasize the need for patience, a strong foundation, and the crucial role of leaders in implementing diversity initiatives. So, tune in to enrich your understanding of diversity, inclusion, belonging, and equity in the workplace.
Hello and welcome to the Diverse, inclusive Leaders podcast. This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Joanne Conway. I've known Joanne for a number of years and every single time we speak, we end up getting into an extended conversation talking about data, which is one of those things that I find personally fascinating. Joanne has recently joined DLA Piper as the head of inclusion and culture international. She's embarking on a doctorate on privilege and inclusion at the moment. As if that wasn't enough, on top of everything else that she does, she's been proud to be listed on various different women's awards the Northern Power Women's Future Top 50 list, along with various other leading awards for building equitable and diverse businesses. Welcome to the show, joanne.
Speaker 2:Thank you, what an intro. Delighted to be here.
Speaker 1:It's great to be speaking to another Northern girl. Anyone who didn't know you might look at the profile and go oh my goodness, finance, psychology, this girl, she's got it all. She's talking about data, she's now doing more education, but it wasn't actually all that way. And one thing I've become very fascinated in recently is data, but not just data from a what does the data tell us kind of point of view. But those that may not have ended up the data would have told us would not end up in a position of influence or power have, and I think that you are absolutely one of those people. So tell us how it started and tell us a little bit more about the journey, joanne.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. I think that's so important. I think the you know we only see kind of glimpses of people and that's why I'm quite vocal on my LinkedIn platform, because I think it's really important that I use my voice for good in terms of being able to share the good, you know, and the challenging as well, and also just to shine a spotlight, like you say, that people like me can actually progress to big, you know, within big organizations, in senior roles. So I'm a Northern woman at heart, originally from Dublin, so both my parents are Irish and I was actually born in Lancashire, in a small time called Paddyham, near Burnley.
Speaker 2:And if you look at all of the statistics and in terms of kind of my upbringing growing up with a, an alcoholic parent, grew up for the majority of my childhood on free school meals, grew up in council estates and you know really, I guess, some of the most disadvantaged areas that I lived in growing up and one of the things that I always found was a safe place for me was school and education and I thrived in that and that's why my love of learning, I guess, really came from.
Speaker 2:So I, from a very young age, had this aspiration that I wanted to be more, and I didn't know what that was, but I knew that. You know that I wanted to achieve as much as I could. Well, like you said, there were, yeah, barriers in my way I guess, similar to other people like me which meant that I left school having completed my GCSEs, and so I didn't actually go on to college, I didn't go on to university. My main priority was actually just moving out of home, finding a place to live, and that meant going into full time work. So did a range of jobs, from factories to working in McDonald's, to petrol stations, to customer services, and I always say that you know, those roles are real testament to my, to my leadership and added to the skills and experiences that I have.
Speaker 1:John, thank you so much for sharing, in particular about you know, the early, humble beginnings. I love that you've mentioned that one of your parents was an alcoholic, because I really don't think the disease, frankly that addiction is, is talked about nearly enough. And you know the way that you describe things, the. It's almost like the evolution of Goan. She goes from you know, the Irish, the Dublin roots, to you know, then growing up in Lancashire School meals to now being at the helm of a law firm.
Speaker 1:You know, when you speak about the journey it's almost just like you can remember it like it was yesterday. And you know, I think things like that are really so important to remember, to remember where you come from, to you know, not kind of sit on that pedestal and figure out where you have have been, but you know, clearly, growing up in that kind of environment, clearly with loving parents, albeit with you, know some of the hardships that living in a, you know, slightly kind of deprived surroundings gives to you. You've you've had the resilience to come through that. How, how did you do that, other than obviously using school and education as that safe comfort blanket?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really. You know I talk about it because it is a can be a taboo topic and I think what comes with that and certainly, as I've posted stuff on on LinkedIn and shared some of my story, I've had people message me privately and say that they've gone through similar. There's a lot of shame actually as you're growing up, is it? You know any? Certainly from my perspective as a young girl, as a teenager a lot of shame. There's a lot of things in terms of when you go to work, the things that you've had to deal with. Perhaps you've been up, you've been up all night, you're in school, you're not sure, quite sure, what you're going to go home to. There's lots of uncertainty.
Speaker 2:So for me, it gave me a lot of skills that I have today, which is around resilience, is around managing uncertainty. I can deal with massive problems because actually, in the grand scheme of things, what I've dealt with, it's not that, it's not that big, so everything is is contextual. So building networks of people around me that I trust has been really helpful. So I've got some friends that were friends back when we were, you know, teenagers that have remained friends. So for me, trust is really important and building relationships and, as a leader, doing what you say you're going to do, I think that's a really important thing and not having that certainty growing up has really instilled that as a core value for me. It's what I expected myself and it's what I really look around and aspire to see in leaders is really, you know, stepping up and if you say you're going to do something, to really do it, even when it gets tough.
Speaker 1:Absolutely stepping up to the plate and knowing that that accountability is real. And suddenly I do see leaders who kind of make it up to the top and forget what it used to be like and don't realize the power that not only their voice has but the actions bring into the workplace, both internally and externally. Because you know, the role that you are now, but also the role that you were in, is an influential role. The roles which are CEO minus, you know, say three to five or thereabouts those are the roles that have the greatest impact factually on driving external stakeholder engagement and internal stakeholder engagement. Why? Because those are full time positions within the organization no offense, of course, to the board but they are external advisors, they're independent.
Speaker 1:Those that work full time in positions of power have the influence and the ability to really drive change and do that at a significant level, because we're advising people externally, whether it be investor relations, whether it be bringing on new talent to also influencing those that look up the corporate hierarchy and go hey, do you know what one day I'd love to be like Joanne, which is really why I love you. Talked about the LinkedIn platform and corporate execs are making the most now of various different platforms, which is a growing trend, that we've seen this uptick for personal branding, which 10 years ago would have sounded quite icky. But personal branding now is about engagement and it is a significant necessary in a world where you know we can't rely on running off to a crisis communications firm all the time, each and every time someone accidentally says a whoopsie they shouldn't do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, I agree, and I think there's a lot of. You know we talked about this around creating space for leaders to be able to learn and to grow, and that's one of the things I've talked about in my in my doctorate, when I'm looking at the topic of privilege inclusion, which can be quite sensitive and topic is actually meeting leaders where they are and really being able to create an environment where you can start to see the change. And you know, some of the leaders that I've worked with in the past are really up for you know, making a difference and just need to really some support in terms of what that looks like and then and then are quite confident. You know they build that confidence and that capability to be able to go on and do more things. So I think that's part of it, and I think being able to do that and have a conversation without having binary views is really important as well.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes we feel like it has to be. If you think one thing and you can't think another, and we're for one group, you're against another group, and I think that that becomes really complicated and actually in my role and in the work that I do and I know others. You know like you want to do is around creating inclusion and for all communities and all groups, and it doesn't have to be the expense of another which is what I see sometimes which can set the agenda backwards and then it stops people from actually feeling like they can contribute or speak up, because they're almost frozen into being afraid of saying anything.
Speaker 1:John, I always learn so much when I'm speaking to you and I'm really excited to talk about Doctorate actually a fellow geek. When it comes to diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity, culture, privilege runs deep and changes interestingly throughout individuals and organisations lives. Talk to us a little bit about what privilege is, why it's so incredibly important and also why did you choose to study this when you're already a subject matter expert?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Well, similar to you, I am a geek and I absolutely love learning, so that's my. I said I'd stop after my master's and then I had a couple of years breaking back into it again. So privilege is? It describes the benefits that belong to people because they either fit into a specific social group or they have certain dimensions to their identity.
Speaker 2:Privilege is a social construct, so it's therefore relative. So what that means is that every individual will experience privilege or lack privilege, depending on how they categorise themselves. It will depend on how the context that they're in and the situation. So it moves within time and within the context that I'm in, so I may hold privilege in one environment and then I might go to another one and lack privilege because those surroundings around me have changed. So it is a social construct and I think the reason that well, I know the reason that I'm really interested in the topic of privilege is that when I first started to look at this because of what I've shared about my personal background, I always felt that I didn't have privilege.
Speaker 2:I would have felt quite I probably would have felt quite defensive if you said that I was privileged. I would have said, well, look at my background, look what I've been through. That's not me. I'm definitely not privileged, but all of us that work in professional services, all of us that have these roles, we're all privileged, you know, by the fact that we have these experiences and these roles. But what I realised was that I have privilege, but I can also lack privilege at the same time. So I have privilege by the fact that I am white, by the fact that I'm able-bodied, by the fact that there are so many different dimensions, but that doesn't take away my lived experience. It doesn't mean that I didn't go through hard times, that there were times in my life where there were barriers in my way that weren't in other people's way, so I lacked privilege. But I can still have that and have privilege. And that was a really interesting piece for me, that kind of moment.
Speaker 2:And when I started to talk to leaders about this format in my role as a practitioner, I noticed that there were different levels of reactions around privilege. You know, people were like I'm not privileged, I went to I didn't go to a private school. Or I'm not privileged and I'm thinking you work in this massive or we're all privileged, but it's how you say it. The language is really important and actually, when we talk about privilege, we're talking about advantages, we're talking about disadvantages, we're talking about barriers, we're talking about, you know, having access to things in different ways. So when I started to have a conversation by opening around, tell me where you lacked privilege and then talk about where you have privilege, it was a much better conversation, because people need-, people, are human beings and they have had experiences and they matter. So jumping straight into talking about where someone's privilege is not always the best you know way.
Speaker 2:I think you have to understand where people are on the journey and allow them to reflect on that, and so, yeah, that's why I'm really interested in it, and I'm particularly interested in how leaders self-consexualise their own privilege and whether that will influence how they include others at work or not.
Speaker 1:That is so interesting, so interesting, and I'm also going to try that next time, because I notice, like you, that the second you mentioned, the word privilege, you can almost slightly well physically tighten up, and it does evoke that emotive reaction that wants to get on the back foot of the defensive. And so it's a much nicer way to openly ask, because we all have privilege, albeit at different levels, and we can also grow into privilege.
Speaker 1:I've just been some wonderful leader from a very well-known hotel group who's joining on the podcast soon and she's a Jamaican woman and she was talking about how much privilege she has. And I thought it was just fascinating because the second we hear the word privilege, we instantaneously think white and then we probably think male and that's where actually there's far more to meet the eye than the pure surface level.
Speaker 1:And that's what I'm getting from when I'm hearing you speak about this, because you're saying, ultimately, let's hold the mirror up, let's look at how we perceive our own reflection. Is that a realistic assessment of how we view ourselves? And do leaders accurately see the right reflection when they look into that mirror? But then also, how can we unpick the lens, lenses of privilege, in order to become a better leader? Because there's always areas where we haven't necessarily had it all, and I don't know a person that would say that they have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now, I agree, and one of the main reasons that I'm interested in so I'm looking to contribute to academia but also to a business problem.
Speaker 2:So it will be, you know, I'm halfway through my research and when I'm finished the, you know, the plan is that I will have a model or a framework that will bring leaders through that and signpost to things that accelerate that journey.
Speaker 2:Because what I have seen where that works really well is where, when leaders have actually gone on that journey and really started to understand their own privilege and had space to understand where they've lacked privilege but where they have privilege, they can then look at the employee and the organisation life cycle and start to notice where there may be barriers in place for some groups that provide advantages, disadvantages, and start to unpick those. Because really, what we want to get to is how do we make the systemic change? Hey, it's never about fixing individuals how do we, or how do we make sure that we, you know, set up our processes so that they are, they are equitable, so that they, you know, they provide equal opportunities that result in equitable outcomes, and the more that people can really see that they're not set up in that way at the moment or some may not be they're more likely to take action. So I'm always thinking about what's the action? How can we influence it?
Speaker 1:the behaviours that are positive.
Speaker 2:So that's my plan, hopefully.
Speaker 1:Definitely not hopefully.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:I clearly like the final word framework very sexy. I find frameworks so fascinating. Others, conversely, will be like oh God, another framework. But I think we need more frameworks. We need frameworks of understanding with which to you know, as you rightly pointed out dismantle the processes and systems that historically have been in place, that have accentuated those systematic biases, and without breaking the systems that we've had and creating new, exciting frameworks that allow us to evolve, we're never going to get anywhere and we're also never going to be able to scale. So you could put something perfect in place in a small kind of microcosm environment, but, like anything, in order for it to be successful in it, to have a greater impact, then it really must scale, and so we need to have frameworks essential for life and for successful business. I think I told you a while ago that I've done this six week course. That almost wow, it nearly kills me six week course at Cambridge on the wealth economy framework, and it's interesting because 2025, I think, is going to be a real watershed moment, not only for the implementation of new sexy frameworks like ours, but also for things like the wealth economy to really come into play.
Speaker 1:And you know the wealth economy talks about what wealth is. You know how do you go beyond the classic kind of GDP, USD that we look at wealth within the context of, and go deeper. And you know privilege comes into a big part of this because the aspects of measuring wealth transcend into things like knowledge, capital, human capital. Could you and I have a successful, flourishing relationship and business relationship without social capital and the glue the whole thing together? And then, questionably, if you were to lead where you're at, does that social capital walk out the door? I would vote yes. And so you know, then you kind of layer into privilege, privilege into that. You layer in all of these other social aspects which, historically, I think it's so hard to measure. How do we measure those?
Speaker 1:And you know, even right now, there is not a framework that sustainably measures the S, but, yeah, ones that we did some research on, because my former tutor for the wealth economy asked him to do, with someone else, a piece of research for us. I commissioned it and they looked at every framework that measures social capital and guess what Diversity and inclusion featured in every single one, every single one. But the other measures for S were different. When you add on top of that the fact that 2025 is going to be this watershed moment. You know people are getting more comfortable. The fact that you know S is critical. We know about how we can become more. You know it's more of a kind of everyday language, something that we know we can measure. There are, you know, certain accountability practices in place, but not the same for S, and so I for one, I've got my hand waving when your new framework comes out. That would be so brilliant. How you know it's almost like could we have a privilege? So no privilege marker?
Speaker 2:you know we have there's so much to like to consider. There's lots of. There's a paper that I've been reading that's really really interesting. It's around privilege, but it talks about this, this model. It's called a 3D model and it talks about denied distance and dismantle. So within that it's a 3D model and they're talking about.
Speaker 2:You know, when you look at privilege you've got they come up with three, three options. So one is that people deny it, so they're like that's I've absolutely I don't have any, you've got. The other, which is distance. So it's kind of I know that it's happening over there in the macro, but it's not actually in relation to me or I can't do anything about it. So you just kind of distance yourself from it, or you can dismantle it.
Speaker 2:And that's the bit that I'm really interested in is that how do we create spaces? How do we create? What are the? What are the, what are the behaviors and the actions that people do that mean they are more likely to do it than others? That's really what I'm interested in, because then, if you can find out what, what, where, people because we've got leaders that are really busy, you know incredible leaders that still find the time to be really inclusive. They understand the privilege. They do all of these things. They're still, they're probably even more profitable. So how do we? How do we kind of look at what that is, that framework, and try to scale that and expand that. So that's what I'm really interested in and I think you know there's never any one size fits all, but I've seen a lot of research on privilege. There's quite a lot of research on inclusion. There hasn't been as much on privilege and inclusion together, which is the the gap that I'm looking to contribute to and, in particular, I'm looking at that through the lens of race, gender and class.
Speaker 1:I'm given. I mean, I know that you're not all the way through the research, but what have you spotted and seen so far and where have you seen examples play out in the workplace? And obviously you don't need to name names as to where it was, whether it's right now whether it was in the former company. But I'd love to know you know some stories, some examples what has worked and what happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely so some of the themes I've had. So the first part of my doctorate has been reviewing all of the existing literature, so came back with about 10,000 papers. I've narrowed that down to 70 key papers and some of the key themes that came out were around invisible and visible privilege. So there's two kind of competing arguments around that. Some talk about how privilege is invisible people don't know that they have privilege and then there's the other argument that says actually people do know that they have privilege but they choose to ignore it or they actually change it so it suits themselves. So there's that piece around if we can make privilege more visible, are people more likely to be able to take action and do things.
Speaker 2:The other piece is around structural barriers that we talked about and also the myth of meritocracy, which is definitely a theme that comes through. So this is kind of a running theme through that, where people and leaders in not even leaders, actually a lot of the studies that they've done are with people at all levels talk about the myth of meritocracy, where people think that if you just work harder then you will make it. So there is this which I've definitely seen play out in terms of just that evolution around understanding meritocracy, because that entails the idea that wherever you're a social position at birth, society should give you enough opportunity for you to just progress to the top, and that's what we've been encouraged to believe right. So we've been told, if you try hard enough, you can make it. It doesn't matter about your race or your gender or your class or any identities on a fundamental level, if you work hard enough that you'll be successful.
Speaker 2:And actually the problem with that contemporary idea of meritocracy is it doesn't acknowledge the fact that climbing the ladder can be harder for some people than others. So that's a piece I'm really, really interested in, so where you can work with organizations and really start to help them understand that there probably isn't a meritocracy. And if there isn't a meritocracy, it's not a personal attack on them as an individual, because for some people they really hold true to their values, that they are fair and they are just and they are true. And if they work in an organization where meritocracy doesn't exist, then that doesn't align with their values and actually it's more than likely outside. It's not about them. Obviously they contribute to it, but there's historical and systemic things at play that mean that most organizations are not a meritocracy, and when you start to acknowledge that, then you can start to really understand how you can make a difference around it.
Speaker 1:I totally agree and I go as far as I don't think any organization is a meritocracy.
Speaker 2:No, I'm yet to find one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am too. If there's any out there, please write in. Yeah, and I know Well, it's about being on the journey, right? I think you know that's.
Speaker 2:You know. I've spoken to a lot of leaders and you know, and they said, look, I can see that and I want to be part of the solution. Like what you know, how can we, what can we do? And there's some fantastic work going on, really, really dismantling some of those barriers that exist. So that's what keeps me in this role. That's what keeps me excited.
Speaker 1:Indeed, and that's the great thing about diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity. Culture is just so rich and constantly evolving. I know people do say I'll be great if we didn't need it and one day, hopefully, we'll not end up needing diversity and inclusion. And I always say that's kind of kind of like saying you're done when it comes to culture. Culture is living, it's breathing, it's sleeping, it's eating. Yeah, the same for diversity. It's just never ending rich, small, diverse board of difference.
Speaker 1:And you know, frankly, even taking gender as one of our facets, well, there's always going to be new generations and those generations got an entirely different view on how they view the world of diversity and or privilege as a layer below the overarching kind of diversity aspect. But also, when we talk about the systemic bias we've seen for so many years, it's going to be such a long time before we eradicate that, and I don't say that to sit here and be incredibly depressing, but we need to recognize that so much of this is historic and whilst we might not understand what it's like to live in a time where there was, you know, slavery and complete kind of different laws to what there is right now, you know, over in Ireland, I mean, it really wasn't that long ago, since it was not legal to have same sex marriage. So to undo all of that will take a very long time. And you know, like myself, I think you know, when you're a practitioner you're so impatient, you're impatient, you want to see these things happen. You want to see change happen. Businesses want to see change happen.
Speaker 1:Can't we just fix it? I've heard CEOs say let's just fix it, let's sort something out, hire new people. Fine, it's not. It's not something that can never be fixed overnight. It is. You know, keep coming back to this evolutionary piece. It really is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, but I think the one, the one thing I would say you know that I really encourage particularly, you know, practitioners. If they're working with leaders, like you say, they're so quite often quite eager to be like let's, what can we do? And they move into the action and the you know the shiny things and they're important and they send a symbol to your employees. But it's really, really important to stay in the fundamentals until they're ready.
Speaker 2:You know, really understanding a lot of work I've done with leaders is really helping them to understand that there is actually a problem to solve and that they are part of the solution.
Speaker 2:Because if you just start moving into action and they don't genuinely believe that there is a problem to solve, because they might just think, well, we're all fair anyway, aren't we? Why are we doing it? Or we'll just go along with it. But actually, if you spend time and lay the foundations and really and really work with leaders around that, and again to your point about being evidence-based but also having the kind of the hearts and minds behind that, it will, it will stay, it will put that those foundations will mean that you have more success and you can accelerate faster, because otherwise you will move forward and you will take one step forward and two steps back. So I think that that's critical and some of the hardest roles that we have in this is actually influencing leaders to stay with us there at the beginning and do that work. That might not seem that exciting, but actually it's the most important part of it and they're always grateful when they do and they do the benefits of that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely Conscious of time. I know we said, oh, we'll do this for 20 minutes and that's going to be the biggest challenge and clearly we've not been 20 minutes, I know.
Speaker 2:I know I'd love to ask a couple of.
Speaker 1:I'm going to cause enlightening around questions, 30 seconds to answer each. Okay, I'm going to throw a couple at you now. But what does diversity mean to you personally? So obviously it means different things to different people.
Speaker 2:For me it is about difference, it is about bringing, and that's visible and invisible. The diversity is about, you know, I've shared my experience, my life experience, my cultural, my heritage. So for me, diversity is really about that the mix of what makes everybody themselves.
Speaker 1:And what does success mean to you?
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like I've had a successful day, when I can see the impact that I'm having on people. So that's what success looks like for me. When I'm leaving the organisation in a better place, when I'm moving the agenda along, even if that's slow, but actually when we're making progress, that's what success looks like for me. I want people to be able to look up who didn't necessarily think that they could be a leader, to look up and maybe see me and think, well, if Joanne can do it, I can do it, and that's success. We can spotlight somebody that maybe wouldn't have made it otherwise, and that's what success is for me.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's about the influence positive influence and the outcome of that, and I love that you can see and you've had people write to you saying thank you. It's about real models. It's not always about role models. It's about those that do the do. They show up every day, they do their very best work and that's rewarded in the leaves coming out of the trees.
Speaker 2:That's such a nice thing. That is exactly why I do it. It just fills my heart. When I see people being successful, then that's, for me, is what success looks like.
Speaker 1:I can see your eyes light up when you say that and as I was saying that, I was thinking, oh my God, I'm being so cheesy, but it is completely true. You watch the people that you've nurtured and it's from little acorns grow big oak trees and it's kind of like you've become this, the oak, and it's growing and the way you learn new things and with each of the branches there's others that come off. That and it's really quite beautiful, really really quite beautiful. Where do I start in summarising the conversation from today, Joanne?
Speaker 2:Good luck.
Speaker 1:I need it. It's always enjoyable speaking to you. I always learn something else. I think data, insight, storytelling, the blend of all of those things coming together.
Speaker 1:You've made me think differently about privilege, and I think it's something that we have to interweave into everyday language. It's not something that we ought to be ashamed of, even though the word itself does often bring about feelings of shame and embarrassment because of the haves, the not-haves, and that's not how it ought to feel. The more that we use verbiage that can sit uncomfortably, the more we become comfortable in allowing those safe conversations to happen and, ultimately, the positive change to enrich the environment with which we sit in. And so I'll leave my summary at that, because I think it really has been. It's been insightful. There's also been quite calming. I always feel quite calm when I come off from speaking with you, joanne, and I think that's the quality that not all leaders have. It's the ability to listen and understand as well and to have everything feel like a two-way dialogue, and I think in the world of inclusion, that is so important.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you, joanne. My name is Layla Mackenzie-Delis, founder and CEO of Dialglobal. You've been listening to the Diverse Inclusive Leaders podcast. Please hit subscribe. We're now at over 200 podcasts and we have 57,000 downloads. Last time I checked and thought to myself in the vein of trees and growth actually how many people are we touching with this? So if you've heard this podcast and you think there's someone that really needs to listen to it, please hit share, do subscribe and we'll look forward to seeing you again next week. Visit us at wwwdalglobalorg. Forward slash podcast or go to your favorite podcast channel and get involved. Thanks so much.