What if the secret to success goes beyond financial achievements? Join us as we explore this concept with our guest, Chris Mouskoundi, Non Executive Director, The Ocean Partnership. Chris takes us along his unique career journey, starting with his upbringing in an immigrant family that instilled in him a strong work ethic and entrepreneurial spirit. We get an insider's view into the role his Greek-American background played in shaping his passion for diversity, inclusion, and equity, and how it guided him to his surprising love for tax and led to his active involvement in various boards and organizations.
Now, imagine a workplace where diversity and inclusion aren't just buzzwords, but the foundation of success and innovation. We dive into this critical topic, revealing that a shocking 30% of minority individuals worry about fitting in, which inhibits their full contribution. Through sharing my personal coming out journey and its impact on my career, along with the economic significance of diversity, we shed light on the importance of an inclusive and accepting work environment. We also delve into the concept of success that extends beyond just financial achievements, and the importance of finding role models who inspire us. Tune in for an episode that's packed with inspiring stories, insightful discussions, and empowering messages of self-acceptance.
What if the secret to success goes beyond financial achievements? Join us as we explore this concept with our guest, Chris Mouskoundi, Non Executive Director, The Ocean Partnership. Chris takes us along his unique career journey, starting with his upbringing in an immigrant family that instilled in him a strong work ethic and entrepreneurial spirit. We get an insider's view into the role his Greek-American background played in shaping his passion for diversity, inclusion, and equity, and how it guided him to his surprising love for tax and led to his active involvement in various boards and organizations.
Now, imagine a workplace where diversity and inclusion aren't just buzzwords, but the foundation of success and innovation. We dive into this critical topic, revealing that a shocking 30% of minority individuals worry about fitting in, which inhibits their full contribution. Through sharing my personal coming out journey and its impact on my career, along with the economic significance of diversity, we shed light on the importance of an inclusive and accepting work environment. We also delve into the concept of success that extends beyond just financial achievements, and the importance of finding role models who inspire us. Tune in for an episode that's packed with inspiring stories, insightful discussions, and empowering messages of self-acceptance.
Hello and welcome to the Diverse and Inclusive Leaders podcast. This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I am super excited to be joined by Chris Muscumdi. Chris has a wealth of experience working within both private wealth family offices, in addition to also investing in and supporting a number of startup organisations. He has a fascinating background and he's really had quite a unique career journey, which we're going to explore a lot more today. But, chris, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I've been dying to really kind of get under the skin of how you came to be, why you are today, because you sit on a number of different boards the Ocean Partnership, mygwork. You're an investor in, your Director of Private Wealth for the Dorthman Family Office. You've done such a lot in a remarkably short period of time. Tell me a little bit about how you came to be where you are today.
Speaker 2:I'll give you the edited version. After finishing school I went to university, followed a very traditional path that a lot of people follow and I sat there in my second term of my third year at university thinking what's next? I hadn't really put a lot of thought into what happens next. I'm from a Greek background and there are very many jobs that your Greek mother would want you to go into and they were always sort of on the horizon and I then started applying for graduate schemes within accountancy, not really sure why. It was sort of just the thing that was done, I suppose, and a lot of people back then were doing similar things. I hadn't really thought about what I really wanted to do. But of course it's the second term of third year at university. I was too late and then, by chance, a very small firm that was about a 20 minute drive from where I was living contacted me and said we don't have anything in accountancy but we do have something in tax. Would you be interested? And gave it a bit of thought, looked into it and I thought actually this could be quite good, and I suppose that was sort of the first gratuitous sort of step that sort of happened to me and I went into tax. I really enjoyed it. I said very few people in the world ever, but found it really quite interesting. I was loving working with individuals. I then spent a lot of time specialising in high net worth tax and eventually this small firm in South Bucks. They were very honest and it was one of those firms where someone had to die or retire for me to get a promotion. So I moved on.
Speaker 2:I took a job in London at BDO and over the years there sort of grew my portfolio of high net worth individuals, which I really enjoyed, and that was how I sort of subsequently ended up meeting the Lloyd Dorfman who is my current employer. And then I was actually looking to change. I wanted to move on from where I was and I took a job actually verbally accepted a job at a bank, and you've got to remember this back in 2007. So the world was there was a big shock to the world coming up, but no one knew was coming at this point and I took a non fee generating advisory job in a bank and the day before I was due to sign my contract I got a phone call saying that Lloyd Dorfman was looking to set up his own family office and would. I be interested and I'd worked with him and the family for a number of years, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:We get on, you know, get on very well, and so it was a bit of a no brainer and, with hindsight, with the banking issues that then followed, within sort of 18 months of where I would have been taking a job in the banking sector, would have probably been an absolute disaster. And that was about what. 15 that was 2007. So and here I am, so doing a little bit of tax, but for those that have ever been involved in any kind of family office, the breadth of what you end up getting involved with, you know it's huge, and the list of things I've done over the last 15 years 16 years is incredible. It's been great. It's really good, really good high and fun moments of what we've done.
Speaker 1:Wow, chris. Honestly it is. I mean, it's absolutely incredible that you built your own portfolio, working with high net worth individuals, ended up loving tax. I haven't actually ever heard anyone say that.
Speaker 2:Because no one ever says it. That's why no one ever says it.
Speaker 1:You make it sound cool. You make it sound cool.
Speaker 1:You make it sound cool. You make it sound cool, you know, obviously, before we started the podcast, you said, well, it was kind of a flute and I just you know, first of all, I like the modesty. I think that's brilliant, but you're clearly exceptional at what you do and building relationships has clearly been at the heart of all of the great work. Tell me a little bit about your personal background. I married a Greek, as you know. You've met my lovely husband, and the Greeks plus the Americans in my case are definitely. You know there are certain personality. Do you think that has affected or influenced the career journey that you've had? And you know, obviously you're super passionate about diversity, inclusion, blogging, equity and culture. I'd love you to tell us a little bit more about why that is. Is it you know to do with the family?
Speaker 2:I think partly yes and no. I mean, you know those who have grown up in an immigrant family. My parents moved to the UK in the very late sixties, 1969. I arrived five years later. My father and my mother actually qualified. My father was a barber, my mum was a hairdresser back in Nicosia in Cyprus. They ended up moving to the UK not long after they got married and here in the UK, you know like many, many immigrant families ended up setting up their own businesses.
Speaker 2:My father had a restaurant with my uncle at one point, then moved on and eventually he had a factory, a closed manufacturing factory which back in the day before the world changed, was, you know, very much produced in the UK and he worked at that and he worked long hours. You know dad was out of the house before I was awake in the mornings. You know I from memory he used to get home about eight o'clock in the evenings. Saturday used to work half day Saturdays, you know. But we had, we had a very sort of busy work life, I suppose growing up. But we also had a very busy summer. We used to go to Cyprus a lot, especially when my grandparents were alive. We stayed great summers and you know, I think all my siblings have got very fond memories of the times we spent over there when we were younger, but we were always very much.
Speaker 2:I remember my dad saying to me once I've got my job, mum's got her job, everyone's got their job in life. Your job is school and education was very much a key, key part of us growing up and it was very much which it is, for you know a lot of a lot of families who have immigrated, where my parents didn't go to school, so they saw school as a very huge opportunity for all of us and we all went on to go to university and went into very different careers between the four of us. So you know the fact that I think you know that helps Because I think you know, I think a lot of parents like mine, you know, live their educational dreams through their children, which you might hate when you're seven or eight and you're told to do your homework. But I think I can look back at it at this stage in life and actually be quite thankful, for you know where it's got me. But then also the flip side of that is then you know what I think about this in as the world has changed over the years.
Speaker 2:I don't also necessarily believe that you know, getting a degree and going to university and I've ended professional qualifications, all that kind of stuff isn't necessarily the right thing for everyone and it's not necessarily what everyone should be doing. So I was, I was sort of herded in that direction, I suppose, but I wasn't, I wasn't forced into it, and I think there are. There are kids sometimes who are sort of forced down a route that doesn't always work for them, which is part of the reason. Actually, where you know some of the diversity stuff I'm involved in, I quite, I quite like the simple reasoning that I do feel that you know in use. I know I know where your thoughts are on this, but a more diverse world just means open minds and open eyes and you could just attract the right people for the right thing.
Speaker 1:Indeed, indeed, and I mean I love what your dad said. There I have a job. Your job is to go to school and clearly that hardworking gene almost runs through your DNA. I've heard much the same from other immigrant families. You know myself with my parents. You know they get in at eight o'clock every evening and I think it's just something that you learn and it's not until you get older, as you say, that you really, you really appreciate that and you know you want to kind of send the lift back down, which is clearly what what you're doing now. And you know you've been kind on a number of occasions to just have a chat with me and give me advice. Even. You know, invest in the business and things like that mean a huge amount, a huge amount. If you were going to I know this is a really odd question perhaps to ask, but if you were going to give your younger self some advice, would you, would you change anything? What might you say to the young Chris?
Speaker 2:So. So this is. This is a really tough one, and I think everyone's got the model answer and everyone everyone you know says what they think they should be saying. But I think the truth is what you would probably tell yourself is slightly different. There was a part of my life at one point where I thought I should have focused less on my career and focus more on myself. There was a part of my life where I wasn't living my true self. But I'm also conscious enough to know that if I had changed those things back at the time, things could be different today in a way that maybe I'm not happy with. So the truth is I don't see the point that you know you end up your way you are. I'd like to think I did the best I could at the time. Would I change anything? I think? Just it's easy to say you change it, but I'm saying that with an older brain I could have told my younger self anything that would have potentially helped or not helped in the long run. They probably wouldn't listen anyway.
Speaker 1:You know it's really fascinating. So I'm a believer that the harder you work, the luckier you get. And you know you've clearly been very courageous and focused, hardworking, tenacious, all those kind of great things. But you mentioned when you were explaining then that you had a point where you weren't living your true self. Can you tell me a little bit more about that, because it's fascinating that you felt that, yeah, I mean, I think.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm very open about it. I mean I don't write on my LinkedIn bio but I'm gay, I'm married, you know. I think you know my husband and I was very late as I say to people, very late to the party and I spent a long time my 30s living in not, you know, I wasn't my true self. And I also look back and think how life would have been different if I had, you know, had the courage, the ability within myself to make that public change earlier. But then I also look at that and think, well, what if I had? How would things be different today?
Speaker 2:Maybe I was able to go into a later stage in life with a different, more rational way of thinking and understanding I wouldn't have had if I'd done it at 18. And you also have to have to acknowledge that the way the world is, the way the world's changing the last five years and 10 years with, you know, say, the next marriage, more equality, legal rights and while I'm not saying this to the long way to go not just in the UK, but it's been especially globally there's horrendous stories that are always coming out. You know, 15, 20 years ago it wasn't better, it was 100 times worse. So taking the easy option sometimes is feels like the right thing to do at the time. But with hindsight you think well, you know, maybe things would have been different if I hadn't.
Speaker 1:We had a fascinating statistics the other day and it was around 30% is the percentage that you spend worrying about how you fit in if you're in a minority in a certain situation, and I thought, oh my goodness, that's crazy, especially in the workplace. When you think about that in relation to the economic climate, we're in that 30%. If we felt we could be ourselves and we felt like we belonged, then productivity.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, I think it's, it's and I'm and I'm and I hate the word woke, and I'm conscious not to go, not to go there. But if you think about, we've all, we have all, whether you are part of that community, you know, whether it's to do with ethnicity or religion, culturally, sexuality, whatever it might be, we have all been in a situation in the workplace where you hear something that you know is inappropriate and it might not be meant in in malice, but the truth is someone you know. If you make a joke about someone's sexuality, which is something that I, you know, I can talk about, I, you know, I've heard them, you know someone's just trying to be funny, but then you also question their, their ability of acceptance. And when you start questioning people's ability to acceptance, it makes you, it just pushes you further away from being, you know, being that open person in the workplace.
Speaker 2:And I know people who are out in private but not at work, and so you've got a question why? And that's not, that's not, that's not, that's not just a society thing, that's also a workplace thing. So I think the world, the world is changing and you know, and you talk to, you know, I've got friends who's whose kids are now teenagers and they couldn't, they couldn't care less. They really couldn't care less. They don't see the difference between gay, straight or the various gender issues that are out at the moment, which is a minefield for a lot of people to understand. They just couldn't. They couldn't care less. So the world is changing, it's getting better, but you know, we have to also consider that diversity in the workplace does encourage more diversity of thought, and the more ideas you bring to the table, you're more like to find a better one.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's about innovation, isn't it? And, ultimately, diversity as a commercial lever for economic growth and prosperity. People feel they're more productive and now, with plus generations in the workplace, it's something that is absolutely, abundantly a necessity to to those younger generations. If you don't mind me just kind of going back to to the journey when you were in your 30s, I'm really curious to know, given that I think we all wear these kinds of these different masks, whether it's at home, whether it's at work, we're known by different groups of people, perhaps to be a certain way. Did it affect your career and what was the decision making process that you went through? Because you said, by your own admission, you were late, late to the party and it was in your 30s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, did it affect my career? I'd like to think it didn't. Did it affect how I worked? Yes, I moved from the small firm in South Bucks to London late 90s and you know I was I in my entire last job. Actually, I'm sure people suspected it, but no one ever said it and I didn't say it. So I spent the entire time when I was there working with.
Speaker 2:You know, I call it the mask. I went through a. I went through a process of talking to someone in my early 30s to get to the point where I was able to understand and rationalize where I was in my life, and a lot of people who have been in that situation will understand. You know you watch every word you say, your actions. You don't want to give anything that might allow someone to think, and then you. That also breeds an element of paranoia because you start to think things that are just normal things might be the things that might just give you away and I think that's tiring, it's exhausting. Dropping that mask is by far the most liberating thing that anyone can do and I would always encourage anyone to do that when it's the right time for them to be able to live. You know their true, genuine life, and the truth is not care.
Speaker 2:But it's not that straightforward for a lot of people and I get that too. So did it hold me back in my career? And I think the answer is later I probably put more effort in my career because of it, because it was my excuse. You know, you know when, when I'm around my, you know the Greek family, why don't you got married? Yet I say I'm too busy to be in my career, studying for exams, doing this, doing that, haven't got time for that. There was always a reason, and when I look back, a lot of those reasons what to do with my, with my career. So maybe work for me the other way.
Speaker 1:But I love how you say that you're completely liberated by everything and clearly it's. It's absolutely not stopped you at being an accelerant, you know. Then you get involved in other things that you're passionate about, like my, my G work and such, and yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2:I mean, I mean my G work is. I was introduced to the boys and got to meet them, got like love, what they do and have the opportunity to invest in them, which I did. I sat on the board for a little while and then, as we we grew and raised more money, they I took a backseat and catch up with the boys. Every now and again I couldn't the boys, because they're two twins that started it with both LGBT and I see the boys have again. They do a great job and they're getting on with it.
Speaker 2:And my, my husband, has a diversity business as well which I'm very much involved in and you know help out to work on that. We do spend a lot of time on weekends looking at things on that one and that's that's. That's doing very well and he focuses on the financial sector, which is and I'm sure you know this later traditionally not the most diverse industries, especially in the larger establishments, which is great and I find that fascinating. And I've I've also been involved in past with a small business which helps to encourage, in effect, social mobility, and very big advocate of that, having, when I was a BDO, help recruit a young Asian girl who was super smart and didn't want to go to university from an Asian Indian family. You know it's it's leaving home to go to university wasn't necessarily the right thing for her to do in her family's eyes, but got a job as an A level student sorry, a level school leader and has been by far in my entire career.
Speaker 2:Are the best people I've ever had the pleasure of working with. She's now in New York. She got married, she moved out there, she works out there and it's been an amazing story, a great friend as well, and it's a real example to me actually how in accountancy, in that whole world of accountancy practices, it's all about the degree you've got and all the rest of it, and it made me realise that's absolutely rubbish.
Speaker 1:If not, you've been a fantastic role model, or real model, as we like to call from at Darg Grobal to this girl who's clearly gone on to achieve fantastic things.
Speaker 2:I will jump in and say I think she probably would have done it without me being anywhere near her. Anyway, she's very tenacious.
Speaker 1:But I think having a supporter, or having a supporter in the world of business, is super important.
Speaker 1:I know people talk a lot about role models, but I think real models, people who are willing to just be able to put a beer shoulder ultimately and give support, because I think a lot of doing great in business sounds even in social life.
Speaker 1:It's about confidence and I think the confidence that you can give to others it makes the most profound of difference. I remember in my career, which is quite an unorthodox one, I went to university, I got a first class on this degree but I couldn't get a job for any of the corporate organisations. So I think, like yourself, I have this weird old chip on my shoulder which is a big part of the drive, but I do wonder whether getting the education maybe helped, but certainly the degree did not help me get a job elsewhere. So talent is everywhere, I believe, but opportunity is not, and so getting to know someone who's been there, done it, been successful, is older, has a career already and worked, but like you have done to this Asian girl who's gone on to great things, believed in her and talk about her when she's not in the room, I just think that's tremendous.
Speaker 2:I also think we sit here in London in a post pandemic, post Brexit world where we know there's a labour shortage, we know there's a skill shortage.
Speaker 2:This is not going to get easier in the near future, we know that, but we also sit in one of the most densely populated cities in the world where there are thousands of kids in schools, not a million miles from where most of us work here in London or in other cities around the UK, who the thought of doing anything in a professional environment, a financial environment, a banking environment, a legal environment and that might not necessarily be something that evolves, getting a degree, but the pure thought of working in any of those industries doesn't even feature on their radar, because they've never had a positive role model near them that says you can do this.
Speaker 2:And I think that's one of our biggest challenges at the moment as a sort of on the work side of society, on how we can open the eyes of these amazing kids with incredible talent who can do things that they don't believe they can do because no one's ever told them they can. And there are a lot of them out there, and I do think we, as a generation of people that have been through the system and can see it have the ability to help reach out and actually help change that.
Speaker 1:I completely agree, completely agree, and I love the fact that we're seeing more people talk about social mobility in everyday conversations. Large organisations are starting to realise and they are now not necessarily always requiring degrees, which I think was a big, big barrier.
Speaker 2:I mean I again, I think you grow up, especially in my background. I grew up where everyone was the same as me. I grew up in sort of out of west London. Most people I was at school with ended up in universities. So you know you think that's the norm. And then I met my partner and my husband and you know his background is he was the first person in his family to go to university. You know, went to Birmingham, got a great degree, moved to London, got a job. You know this wasn't the norm. He broke the mould of what happens and you know, has been very successful in what he does and how he does it. And you know, and I do say to people that is an example of social mobility and if we can go out there and actually show people that you can do this, it would be amazing to think what kind of talent we can attract to the workplace.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, chris. Before I run out of time, I'm conscious I could sit here and talk to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've got longer. I've got a bit longer, if you need it.
Speaker 1:And I know you've got until the hour, but I'd love to go into a lightning round if I may. And I'm going to start off with the hardest question. And it loops right back to the beginning of our conversation, where you were talking about how this. You know this word, success. It's almost evolved over time. It means different things, different people, but what is success to you?
Speaker 2:That's really tough, because the traditional and most normal and sociological measure of success is financial, and I don't necessarily believe it is financial. But if I said to you that I did everything I did in my career for the love of it and not for the money, I'd have a lot of people pointing their finger and saying you're a liar, and they'd be right. So there is an element of financial success that I think we all want and everyone wants nice new things and everyone wants nice holidays and all the rest of it. So that is part of it, but it's not the biggest thing. I've always said I love my job, I love what I do. I've never not enjoyed my job, so that's ticked to success, I think. But the same can be said about a plumber, a builder, and I think being happy in what you're doing and being able to live the life you want to live is a measure of success. Do you want your name on boards and the world's longest LinkedIn profile and all the rest of it? Some people really like that and they really enjoy that and that's what they want and I think that's fine.
Speaker 2:Personally, I've never raised that. Since I've grown up, I've not sought other people's validation. I don't need anyone else's validation. I know the people in my life who matter and I care what they think about me and how I treat them and how they treat me, and that's important. Do I want the world to validate me? No, and I think that's success. I think that's just being able to live your life without fear of what other people think about you. So I think success is many attributes and it's not as simple as straightforward to say this is what success is. There are people who've written books and produced films and they've got their names in lights and all the rest of it. And the truth is people might be listening to this, thinking too easy, and that's fine. It doesn't take away from what I feel I've done, alright.
Speaker 1:Really interesting answer. No one has ever said that and I think it takes a lot of confidence to say that you don't seek validation. I sit here and I wish that I didn't. I think that I care a lot less than I used to, and I think when you're young certainly well, actually it's another whole conversation, kind of early intervention when it comes to diversity and inclusion, but I think you care so much about what people think when you're younger. It gets better as you get older. But I'd be lying if I said that I didn't seek validation from somewhere. So that's a really, really good answer. I like it. And how about your role model, or role models?
Speaker 2:It's tough, you know, and I did see a list of the questions before we started this and this is the one that's challenged me, because I've said this a million times in public, in wedding speeches, birthday speeches and whatever I do say to a lot of people for everything I am today, I have to thank my parents. They've taught me a lot of good things. So my parents are definitely role models in how they've raised us and how we live our lives and the work ethic and things like that. I'm fortunate enough to work with Lloyd Dorfman and, yeah, you can't help I mean, you know him you can't help but be in awe of a lot of the things that he's done over the years and the successes that he's had. And you know, as over the years that I've been with him.
Speaker 2:If we take it away from monetary success, if we look at his charitable successes, they're pretty cool. You can't not help to feel inspired by that. But then my husband I don't think I've ever said this to him and if he listens to this he'll find out but he's a role model, working hard every day to try and create something for himself and, ultimately, us. It's inspirational and you know you run a business. It's hard, it's a slog, and some days you just want to turn the lights out and pretend it hasn't happened. And so you know, lots of people do inspire me. So, yeah, I couldn't say this. You know I haven't got an overriding hero that I wanted to live my life like.
Speaker 1:But you've taken the great pieces from lots of different people, which I think is important, and I guess that also changes as you go through our life. It's like a book you stick with the ones that inspire you, like you say, but then you know, it sounds like you're always learning still, and I think you know that education piece is critically important. You know, I'm a believer that you're learning until the day you die and you know to enjoy it along the way is really it's the very best thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:And I think that's the real measure. You know, enjoy it along the way.
Speaker 1:And I guess for anyone who's listening to this and I know you said modestly you know they might think well, who am I? But clearly you've done a fantastic job, an absolutely fantastic job, and you will be a role model for many. What would you say to those who maybe have a similar background, who might even be struggling themselves at the moment and kind of not having the confidence. What might you say to them to kind of inspire them and to encourage them?
Speaker 2:It's such. You know people that have you know my personal background or similar. It is a very personal journey. I know that and anyone who's been through it knows that. And however, however accepting the world is becoming once it is is becoming, they have to first learn to accept themselves and that's really hard. That is the hardest part, I think, because once you and this is part of my journey going back to the validation point, where you know I learned I didn't, I've no longer wanted or needed other people's validation. You know, I think people that go through the journey they doubt themselves but deep down, if they really broke it down, they do know they're. You know they're good people, they're decent people, they're not hurting anyone, but they just have to accept that themselves and it's. It's a journey that anyone needs to go through, but you can only go through at your own time.
Speaker 1:Chris, thank you so much. I mean it's been really inspirational speaking with you and I know that lots of people are going to listen to this podcast and find it just as interesting and inspiring as I did. I always do a little summary at the end and I'm thinking, oh, where do I start? On the summer, but I think modesty is key. That's certainly something that comes across when you're speaking, but at the same time you have this kind of unwavering confidence and sense of self assurance, which I think is is fantastic, especially given your openness and your can, candid kind of nature.
Speaker 1:When talking about the kind of the 30s or the period in your 30s where you weren't necessarily showing up as your true self every day, but also being open about kind of having, you know, a bit of a chip on the shoulder and coming from a really hard working background, role models that your parents clearly have been to you, but then also the fact that you find inspiration in the work that you do and the people that you meet along the way.
Speaker 1:It sounds very much like you've always remembered your roots, keeping the education, whatever that education may be, so not necessarily going to university, but actually also sending the lift back down and encouraging others, putting an arm around them and telling them that they can do it, but then also success. You know what does that mean? It means lots of different things to different people and, in your case, being comfortable in yourself, being being pleased and happy with what you're doing, but liberated, as you say, to be able to trust in yourself and not seek that external validation, which I think is a huge goal for a lot of people, because I do believe that the vast majority of people seek that external validation from somewhere. So if we can get to where you are with that, chris, I think a lot of us will be very, very happy. But thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Laila Thank you.
Speaker 1:My name is Laila McKenzie-Dallas. You've been listening to the Diversed Inclusive Leaders podcast with the fabulous Chris. If you'd like to reach out or if you've been affected by any of the issues at all in today's podcast, please let us know and visit us at wwwdalglobalorg forward slash podcast. You can download us on Apple Podcasts, spotify or any of your favorite podcast channels. Thanks so much and see you next week.