Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Breaking Barriers: The Journey of Black Executives with Dr. Chuck Wallington
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When Dr. Chuck Wallington, a visionary in the corporate realm and a passionate storyteller, graced our podcast, he didn't just recount his journey from a curious child to an illustrious executive at Cone Health, he also illuminated the path for future Black leaders. With a freshly minted book in hand, "A Seat at the Seasweet Table," Chuck offers an intimate glimpse into the successes and struggles of 30 Black executives navigating the tumultuous waters of today's business world. Our conversation ventured into the stark reality of African American men's scarcity in corporate leadership and how this drought limits mentorship and growth opportunities, an issue that resonates with my own experience as a Chinese, female, millennial leader.
This episode is a melting pot of poignant reflections and practical wisdom, examining the underrepresentation issues in executive roles and celebrating the triumphs of those who have broken through the glass ceilings. We delve into the stories of these executives, their combat with VUCA challenges, and the critical role of allies and sponsors in my personal narrative, highlighting the transformative power of diversity in leadership. A mosaic of perspectives is showcased, with Chuck's eye-opening research and interviews underscoring the importance of authenticity and the pressing need for inclusion in workplace cultures.
Glean insights from Chuck's defining principles for success, which are anchored by faith, recognition of one's innate talents, and the strength drawn from family and community. Through laughter and earnest discussion, we learn the significance of mentorship, the influence of role models like Ken Chenault, and the importance of lifelong learning and data-driven decisions. By the end of our time together, the indomitable spirit of those who forge forward, despite the corporate realm's challenges, serves as a testament to the resilience and community bonds that sustain us.
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Hello and welcome to Diverse and Inclusive Leaders. This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Dr Chuck Wallington, phd. Chuck is the Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing and Communications Officer at Cone Health. In addition to that, he is now a published author. He's recently released a seat at the Seasweet table where he shares candid conversations with 30 Black executives about the lack of mentors and how they're able to navigate not only corporate settings but the VUCA world that we live in today. Welcome to the show, chuck.
Speaker 2Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1I'm thrilled to have you here and I'm so glad that I managed to get your lengthy title out there, I feel, if a bit intimidated actually, because of the remarkable things you've done.
Speaker 2Well, thank you, but don't be intimidated by it.
Speaker 1Thank you, chuck. So tell us before we get started into the podcast, tell us how you came to be where you are today and a little bit about the journey that has led you to being right here right now.
Speaker 2Sure. So when I was a young kid I took an affinity to reading newspapers, and so I grew up as a young kid in a two newspaper household at the time and I would read the morning paper and I read the afternoon paper and just developed a love for reading in general and news in particular. So somewhere very early on in life I knew that I wanted to be a newspaper reporter, so I set my sights for that. So in undergraduate school I majored in journalism and upon graduation I had a chance to work briefly as a newspaper reporter and I had a great time doing that. At the same time I had an opportunity, after a brief stint, to enter into doing corporate public relations work and the rest, as they say, is history. So I've been blessed over the course of my career to work for three fortune companies, taking on progressively significant roles throughout, rising through the ranks, getting to lead people, understanding and implementing and developing strategy all the stuff that we do as marketing and communications professionals. So that's been my career trajectory. 12 years ago 13 years ago now I came to Cone Health and had a chance to continue leading a marketing and communications team. After I'd been here for a while, I had an urgent to return back to school to earn my master's degree. So while working full time I went back to school and earned my master's degree from Syracuse University. About midway through that process I had an urgent to continue on and earn the PhD, and so I did so at North Carolina A&T State University, again while working full time, leading a team of people being a husband and a dad and the son and all that other good stuff.
Speaker 2So it was at the end of my dissertation process that I had a committee chair who said a committee person who said you know what I think? You have a book in this research. And I will tell you. When she said that, I thought all I want to do is successfully defend this dissertation and graduate. A book is the last thing on my mind. But once that seed had been planted, I couldn't let it go.
Speaker 2So I graduated, took about nine months off to really clear my head and that nudging was still there. So I went back to this professor and said, okay, you've now planted a seed, I don't know what to do. Can you help me? She said sure. So she connected me with an editor and a publisher and again, the rest, they say, is history. So that's how the book came about. It really started with, you know, my desire as a kid to be a newspaper reporter. It morphed into what I've been blessed to do for many, many years in corporate public relations and marketing, to now the academic journey, and so I'm just excited to be able to share the stories of these 30 executives to people out there so they can learn and grow from the experiences of these 30 executives.
Speaker 1Chuck, thank you so much for sharing. That is quite some journey, and I must take my virtual hat off to you because what you've achieved is tremendous but also the impact and the power of voices like yours a proud black man, yes, so critical because future generations of leaders, especially in this complex world that we're living in, when we're seeing, you know, pretty treacherous headlines for gameplay, but scamming scamming a lot, because I think actually the powerful voice of the few must not allow us to get laxie-daisical in any way, shape or form for what is right and what is good, because this means such a lot to so many many people.
Speaker 2Yes, yes, indeed. I mean, you're right. If you allowed yourself to really focus on the headlines, you could become hamstrung, you'd shut down, you would believe that there is no hope for the future. But I choose to take the other point of view. You know, while things can look bleak on any given day, there's always hope, and there's hope in the lives of the 30 men who were bold enough to share their stories. There's hope for folks whose stories may never be told, but they're living their lives now and doing their very, very best to be whatever it is that they were created to do, and so that's what I find inspiring in the midst of all that can seem bleak.
Speaker 1And it is voices like the 30 Black executives that really show the tenacity and the dedication for this work. That is incredibly important. And before we get into some of the stories that really inspire and empower, I would love to just say that my observations over the last decade of the lack of representation. When you look at the data, when you look at the facts and figures, the higher up you go in that classical corporate hierarchy, the lower and the lower the diversity is, and, of course, diversity means different things to different people. In my case, it is being a Chinese, female and millennial just being adopted by white British parents.
Lack of Diversity in Corporate Leadership
Speaker 1Every one of us is diverse and has a part to play within the narrative and within the storytelling, but equally and this is something that I don't often share, but I was lucky enough to get a first class honours degree, yet that degree did not allow me to get a job within any of the corporate organisations which, coincidentally, I now spend much of my time working with and advising, and so hearing your story and what you have done to showcase the tenacity of those when, ultimately, we see that talent is everywhere and opportunity is not, is absolutely key. Talk to us a little bit about some of your reflections from the corporate world and what led you to share some of these stories of people who bravely did talk to you about their experiences.
Speaker 2Sure. So I always wondered from the very beginning, where are the folks who look like me? I just thought maybe they weren't at the companies that I was working with. I just didn't know. And so I went for years and years and years seeing only a handful of people of colour in general, and then an even smaller handful of African American men, and I just thought they have to be somewhere. Where are they and what are their journeys? And I wondered am I the only one who's experiencing what I'm experiencing, or are there others who are experiencing the same things?
Speaker 2So, to be very honest with you, it was when I started to pursue my master's degree that I was again challenged by a professor, because I looked around in my cohort, there were nine of us pursuing the master's degree. I was the only male and the only African American out of a cohort of nine and I thought what is the deal? Why is that? And so I had a professor who challenged me, who said Chuck, that's an interesting dynamic. You should do your master's research on that. And so I did. And so what ended up coming out of that research was an understanding. There's a shortage of black men in the field of public relations, and there are reasons why, and so that then was my springboard for my dissertation research, which is now a book.
Speaker 2I decided to look more broadly at the experiences of black men in corporate America Because, again, as I continued to ascend, as I looked around, there were fewer and fewer people who looked like me, and so there was always the question mark of why is that? And what are the stories of folks who've actually made it to the top? The themes are the same, as you might imagine. So and this is relating to my own personal experiences so let's start with the lack of mentors, coaches, sponsors, role models and allies. So I went through my entire career and I've had maybe two mentors, if I'm lucky and if I'm rounding up, and I've been doing this work for years, but I've only had a couple of mentors and, as you know, mentors are the folks who say I'm with you for the long haul and I'm going to give you advice. I'm going to give you a safe space to talk out loud. I'm going to talk to you about corporate culture and the nuances that aren't always written down but you get to figure out on your own. I'm going to be that person to guide you along. I would love to have had that, haven't really had that. But again, I've watched my white counterparts have that right and their mentoring starts really before they even get into the corporate culture, because they come from a background where parents are working in corporations, they have friends who are leaders and executives in corporations, so those dynamics and relationships get formed with others very early on.
Speaker 2But that was not my story. The same thing with coaching. So again, my research for both of these pieces, as well as my own experiences, would share that. You know, in my case I've had, I've had some coaching along the way and I appreciate that. I would love to have had ongoing coaching throughout my entire career.
Speaker 2I've obviously had allies and sponsors, because the allies and sponsors are the ones who speak up when you're not in the room. They're the ones who say Chuck's really good at what he does, he really can take on this assignment, he can take on an expanded role, he needs to be promoted into this role, he needs to be hired for this role. So I have, of course, been blessed with allies and sponsors. And again, the 30 men that I interviewed would say the same thing it's next to impossible, you know, to get to the next level if someone isn't an ally and a sponsor for you. But the journey is made a little bit more challenging if you don't have the mentors and the coaches. So again, that's kind of been my story and that's also reflected in the narratives of the 30 men I interviewed for the book.
Speaker 1It's fascinating how you talk about the lack of mentors and sponsors, because it is an overarching theme that we see across a number of different dimensions of diversity, without us being too negative here.
Speaker 1When you stack up each of those layers of grace ethnicity, gender, so on and so forth faith, religion, actually you compound all of that and you realise that the hope to be able to make it to the sweet sea sweet and or beyond is minimal.
Speaker 1I recently chaired a panel with three black CEOs and we had a standing ovation. It was the only panel of black CEOs that I have ever chaired, and it's times like that on the one hand make you want to cry with emotion, but at the same time you think how truly wonderful to see that, with the right people and leaders speaking out about this and their experiences, that change is happening. I might feel at times like we're pushing a rather large rock up a hill, as my very red red emcee would say, but there are those real moments of excitement where you think about the impact this can have for future generations and also the economy. We're huge proponents that diversity is a commercial lever for economic growth and prosperity, not only the spending power of minorities and other diverse individuals, but equally, the knowledge share and transfer that goes back into these future generations of leaders, as you've articulated in the book, is so important, especially during times of economic crisis.
Speaker 2That's very true and I know for myself.
Speaker 2I have been in conversations and I've been in meetings where I will bring up a perspective or a point of view that my colleagues have not thought about because it's not a part of their lived experiences, it's not top of mind for them.
Speaker 2It doesn't mean that they're not great people, it just means that the perspective I'm bringing is unique to me because I am an African American male and so I have seen firsthand how having the right people in the room at the right time for right conversations leads to the right outcomes. And you know US corporations need to continue to remember that it's just important to have a diversity of thought. You know race and gender certainly are important, but just you know, the broader spectrum of diversity is really really, really important as decisions are being made, as strategies being discussed, as tactics are being implemented. We can all cite the examples of and I'll speak now some of the advertising. They're all they're examples of, you know, commercials that a group of people thought were quite appropriate and when those commercials aired they felt flat because you didn't have the right people in the room vetting all this before you put it on the air.
Speaker 2There are also examples of other business decisions that have been made over the years. You just didn't have the right folks in the room. It falls flat. And we have to also keep in mind that consumers today are far more savvy than they were years ago, and consumers expect the brands and the organizations and the causes that they support to reflect whoever they happen to be. And so when there is a reflection of the world around you, companies and brands do tend to do better, and there's data that supports that, and the converse also is true. And consumers today, when they don't see the diversity they're looking for, are very quick, you know, to let people know, because, guess what? We're all reporters now, since we have these devices called phones, iphones, right? So all of that is important and all that needs to be factored in and should continue to be factored in as folks are making decisions about who to bring into the room for whatever the conversation happens to be.
Speaker 1I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more and and this is it the the brands and their leaders must take accountability. No recent example, which I'm sure you'll have seen, as a comms professional with Elon Musk saying DEI must die. I'm talking to a CEO about this and she said I am so glad I didn't buy a Tesla. And it just makes you think that, actually, and because I wouldn't buy a Tesla now again I'm being quite controversial here but the impact of the financials as well for these organizations and the impact on the bottom line, you know. Coming back to something that you said before about diversity of mindset and innovation, which, of course, we know is super, super important to any business making decisions, we would never explain the importance of innovation or resilience. Why treat diversity any different.
Speaker 2Absolutely, Absolutely. I agree. You know it's all a part of what it takes for organizations and companies to be successful. It's just, it's a critical component and you factor it out and you're making a decision to be less competitive in the marketplace. And why would you do that?
Speaker 1Crazy, crazy. So they talked to me, Chuck, about some of the most enlightening experiences that you had with these wonderful cohort of individuals, because I know how much you value and cherish their voices and I know the piece of dedication that you had put to these executives was just such a wonderful, beautiful piece to read.
Speaker 2Thank you. So when I started this research, I knew five or six of these executives. So these were folks who I'd met over the course of my life and my career. A couple were friends, and so I started with a base of five or six.
Speaker 2The methodology that I used to identify the balance is it's called snowball sampling. It simply means that when you interview someone, at the end of the interview you say, hey, can you please refer me to someone else who fits the criteria, and so it was through that particular methodology that I got to the 30 that I was striving for. Also, I shared within my network of friends, men and women. This is my research focus If you know someone, let me know. And so I have to give a shoutout to my network of friends, particularly the women, who really rallied and said I will connect you with this person or I will connect you with that person. And it's through that network that I was able to identify these 30 men, and they represent 12 different industries. They live in 17 different states and the District of Columbia, so they represent an interesting spread of folks across the United States, which was really what I was striving for. I will tell you, I interviewed each of them individually, and this is where my skills as a reporter kicked in, because part of what I had to do was to keep myself out of their stories.
Speaker 2These were about their stories. So I, you know, I'm a reporter by training and I and I tapped into that. I knew the questions I was going to ask each person, I recorded the conversations and I will tell you, as these men were talking, there were times when I could relate to an experience, exactly what they were saying, and I couldn't say that. So I listened, I asked the questions and then at the end, once I'd shut down the recording and I was clear that we were no longer interviewing, I would say you know what? I can so relate to what you just said, or it was all I could do to keep quiet.
Speaker 2As you were describing this experience, let me tell you what happened to me when I was in a similar situation, and so that's really where the bonding, if you will, occurred. As I was getting to know these 30 executives, I was very focused on not tainting the data and allowing them to share their stories, and in the end, there was typically the opportunity for us to connect. So that's what this part of what made the experience so great. I had several folks who would say to me thank you for even asking these questions. No one's ever asked me about my experience. No one's ever asked me about how I've handled my experience, how I've worked through the challenges that I've had.
Speaker 2No one's ever asked me. Thank you for asking so it was an amazing journey for me and I hope and pray that it was also an amazing journey for the 30. And again, now the collective of this work is. Their stories are there, along with the advice that they offer to the next generation, because that's also the purpose of this book there's advice for the next generation and there's advice for folks who are currently working in US corporations and, by the way, this book is for folks who are not African American right.
Speaker 2There's a role in a place for everyone, particularly as it comes to supporting diversity, equity, inclusion and, in particular, as it pertains to bringing along a diverse group of professionals in the workplace. There's a role for everybody. So, again, the book speaks to all of that.
Speaker 1That makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. And those that which is everyone actually those that have walked into a room and felt the prickles on the back of their neck and the slight raise of the heartbeat because they felt that they haven't belonged in that environment. Interesting statistic for you because I know we're both lovers of data is 30% is the amount of time that someone spends worrying about how they fit in if they don't feel that they belong. Now, imagine that went into productivity. These are 30 people that you've interviewed and each and every one of them, from the sounds of things, has had those moments of aloneness. And that relates, that's a universal piece across all cultures, all genders, all races and ethnic individuals, but equally leaders who want to get the buy in to their teams, to drive engagement, because we know that those who feel that they belong, who feel that they can truly show up as their authentic selves, are going to bring our greater innovation, goodness and value to the organizations with which they serve.
Speaker 2Yes, yes, you know. One of the one of the executives talked about the walking into a room and everybody knew him and he didn't know but a few. And he said but everybody knew me and everybody expected me to be on point. Everybody listened to what I said. They evaluated what I said and he said that's a bird right To know that every time that I walk into a room there are going to be more people who know me because I'm the only personal color than I know of them, and they expect me to be, you know, perfect with every word that comes out of my mouth. And that's not the requirement of folks who don't look like him. People have called. That's just not the requirement of the expectation.
Speaker 2Another executive said we were chatting in the interview and he said you know, I wonder what it must be like for folks to assume that because you're white, when you enter the room, you're the smartest, you're going to be right with what you say, your points of view are going to be acknowledged and appreciated every time. So what must that be like? And there was a pause there with that and I thought you know what that is so insightful. I had not really thought about it the way he paused and articulated but was really, you know, a moment of an epiphany for him as he was thinking through that dynamic. That is very real, it certainly does exist and at the end of the day, again, all 30 have figured out how to navigate this. So, again, that's the hope of all of this it's possible to figure this out and to be on this journey. It's not impossible at all. It will come with its challenges, as many things in life do, but it's not impossible, nor is it insurmountable.
Speaker 1Give us without disclosing all of the wonderful things in the book because I would love to encourage everyone to go out and purchase a copy and absorb all the brilliant, brilliant learnings in there but give us a couple of the tips that anyone who's listening to this podcast now, who completely resonates with everything that's been said, could do in their corporate setting.
Speaker 2So I'll talk from two perspectives. So, for folks of color, one of the pieces of advice is you need to find a way to get a mentor, and several of the executives said the mentor doesn't have to be an African American, nor does a mentor have to be a male, but you do need a mentor. You need someone who is committed to you for the long haul. And again, that mentor can be someone in the organization where you work. The mentor can be someone outside of the workplace. You just simply need someone who can guide you along the way. So that's a tip for folks who are currently working, aspiring to climb the career ladder and perhaps don't have a mentor. Don't be at the mercy of or a victim of. You know. Find someone right and be deliberate about that. So that's one tip For those who are already in seats of decision making, both people of color, those who are not people of color. A couple of things. Think about the organization where you work. Is there a commitment by your CEO and your board of trustees or your board of directors to diversity, equity and inclusion, in particular, attracting and retaining the absolute best talent that you can in a diverse workforce? So you have to ask yourself if that's there. If it's not there, then you get to ask yourself all sorts of questions, not the least of which is is this the organization for me in the long haul? And maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but those are personal decisions that have to be made. So that's another piece of that. Also, for those who are in decision making roles and again now you know CEOs and other C-suite members, again ask yourselves that question. And then, if not, are you willing to go on the journey to create, within your culture, a pathway for folks of all races, color, screens, backgrounds to be successful? So, do you have that commitment to doing this work? Have you articulated what that is? Have you written that down? Have you shared that with your board so that your board is now going to hold you accountable for this work? Do you have someone who wakes up every day and thinks about diversity, equity, inclusion, and do you have that person in the right role within your organization? Have you worked with that person to create a strategy that will ensure that the folks of color, those who are diverse, who are currently in your organization, are going to continue to grow, to thrive and develop? Do you have a strategy for attracting and retaining even more people right. And then, once you get them in the door, how do you ensure they're successful from the first day?
Speaker 2It's never enough to simply hire someone. They absolutely have to be paired with people who are committed to their success. Who will help them break down barriers? Who will make the right introductions, who will talk about the culture that's not written down? Who are going to make sure they're successful when they get there? And what do you have in place to ensure that, as folks show you what they're capable of doing, you're offering them opportunities to grow and to develop, because that's what keeps people in organizations. So those are some of the tips in the book and, again, it's not an exhaustive list, but those are things for people to think about and actually take action on, because it's not rocket science, but it is a commitment. It's a commitment to ensuring that your organization is as strong as it possibly can be.
Speaker 1I love what you said there around it not being enough just to secure diverse talent, quote unquote. It takes me back to my previous days in exact search, where I used to call it organ rejection is the body must the body being, the organization must have the right culture to be able to take on that organ. Otherwise we see organ rejection and things go back and can be even more painful than where they were before because folks inside the organization say, hey, we tried to have diverse and it didn't work. Actually, your point is that we need to have this soil full of nutrients to allow those seeds to be able to flourish and for there to be opportunities to actually grow, develop and progress.
Speaker 2That's right. And again we're talking about racial diversity. But I would argue that it's diversity of all types diversity of thinking, diversity of background, diversity of experiences. It makes no sense to hire people who are different and expect them to conform with the norm. That, to your point, the body is going to reject that because that's not what body is looking for. But we've got to be willing to bring in people who look differently, think differently, who act differently. You're going to ask different questions. We're going to challenge the conventions and say, look, have you thought about it this way? Here's why I think we need to think about it this way. There's nothing at all wrong that. In fact, I find it very, very exciting that people are willing to do that. We just have to, as organizations, be willing to allow them to come in and do that and reward them a lot the way.
Speaker 1Before we summarize, I'd like to ask you one lightning round question. Sure, that's what I made.
Speaker 2Sure.
Keys to Success & Inspirational Mentors
Speaker 1Well, perhaps two actually, because I could sit and ask you many questions. I could quite happily sit on this podcast actually the rest of the day. But what have been your secret to success, chuck?
Speaker 2My secret to success are a couple of things. So one I believe in a higher power and I believe that I am working in the gifts that were deposited in me when I was created. And I am fortunate enough to have been able to tap into that very early on, because I talked to you about my desire growing up to be a newspaper reporter and while I was only briefly a reporter, it was those skills that set me up for the success that I've been blessed to experience today. So I do think part of my success is a belief in a higher power and tapping into my gifts. That just feel very naturally a part of me and what I do every day. So I'm blessed to be able to bring those together.
Speaker 2Another element of my success is that I have a very strong family and friendship circle. So I have a beautiful wife who supports everything that I do. She asks all the right questions a long way to make sure that I know why I'm doing what I'm doing, and she then supports me in the things that I set out to do. So I am blessed and thankful to have her. My friends as well right, my friends tell me what I want to hear and what I don't want to hear and everything in between. So it helps to have friends who will do that.
Speaker 2And then I've been fortunate to work in some really, really solid organizations where, as I said, I've had sponsors, I've had allies, I've had folks who've really taught me the fundamentals of doing what I do now in strategic marketing and communications, and they have recognized when I've been able to take on additional work and able to allow me to do that. So I will always be grateful for folks who are allowing me to do that and the corporations for which I have been blessed to work. And as I've gotten older, to be very honest with you, the key to my success has been not taking myself seriously. At one point I thought I had to have all the answers I learned. Now I just have to have the right questions and surround myself with a bunch of really smart people who can then figure things out and get things done. That's such a relief when you get to that point. Figure that.
Speaker 1And finally, you may have answered this in the last question, but who has inspired you the most throughout your career, or indeed your life?
Speaker 2A couple people. So, professionally, I'm going to talk about Ken Chinal. So Ken Chinal was one of the first African-American CEOs and was CEO of American Express when I worked there and I watched Ken, who's a brilliant man, navigate American Express, make it even stronger than it was, and did so never losing sight of who he was and who God created him to be just a really sharp man. So I've enjoyed watching him and I appreciate what I was able to learn while they're under his leadership. So he's one.
Speaker 2I'm going to also cite my father. So our dad had an eighth grade education, and my mother had two years of college Between the two of them, though, they understood and appreciated the value of an education. They ensured that my sister and I had an education so that we would have a life that was better than what they had when they were growing up, and so what I learned from them was the value and appreciation of an education. Also the value of hard work, because my father and mother got them to work every day. They were hourly workers of what they did, but they were good at what they did. They didn't complain about what they did, they dealt with the world around them and they provided a home life for my sister. So those would be my examples of folks who my reviewer, so Ken on the corporate side and certainly our parents on the home front side.
Speaker 1Wonderful, chuck. Thank you so much. I'm thinking about how I summarise all of the rich insight that we've learned on this podcast, and so I'll pull just a couple of the pieces that really, really did resonate. But finding mentors, finding sponsors absolutely critical to help you navigate that corporate world. Even in life in general, there's no shame in asking for help and support, but trying to do it alone is not always the right way, and so making sure you find those allies who believe in the talent that you have to grow, develop and progress is absolutely critical. And then also data-backed decision-making. That's something that really came out of everything that you were talking about.
Speaker 1We look at diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity, culture. It is more wide and it is more deep. It's in the communications which we put out into the world. The accountability of the leaders, making sure that actually we're looking very carefully at the organisations with which we work for that allow our talent to be able to flourish and thrive, but then equally, driving that engagement internally. Role models and real models are key, and clearly this is something that you have seen as you've been navigating that corporate world but actually those real models and role models for others who are making their way up those high rock programs and wanting to enjoy success is absolutely key.
Speaker 1And then, finally, the pieces around faith. I think in the world today we absolutely must have the faith. We must find the community, we must find the inspiration and people like yourself who actually give us the energy and the fuel to keep on going, because this can be an emotionally exhausting environment, but actually, when we have the hope and we keep the faith, that is what propels us forwards and allows us to continue keeping the good fight up and doing what we do every single day.
Speaker 2You nailed it. That's it. That's it Perfectly said. Thank you very, very much.
Speaker 1Thank you, chuck. My name is Layla McKenzie-Dies. I'm the founder and CEO of Dialglobal. You have been listening to the fantastic Dr Chuck Wallington, phd and author of this remarkable book, with 30 executives who did make it to the top through trial, tribulation and passion, so make sure you do check that out. You can find our podcast on Apple, spotify, any of your favorite podcast channels, or visit us directly at wwwdalglobalorg. Forward slash podcast. Look forward to seeing you again very soon.