Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Diversity and Inclusion in the Workplace: A Conversation with Andrew Neal
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Embark on a journey with Andrew Neal, Chief People Officer at Nash Squared, as we uncover the transformative power of diversity and inclusion through the lens of human capital leadership. With a vibrant career that transitioned from the retail hustle to spearheading human resource strategies, Andrew's dedication to fostering belonging and equity shines a spotlight on the evolving landscape of talent management. As he shares pearls of wisdom from his time at Tesco and beyond, our dialogue encapsulates the essence of nurturing a workplace culture that celebrates every individual's journey toward success.
Hear firsthand about the critical role employee resource groups (ERGs) play in driving engagement and organizational performance, illuminated through Andrew's experiences and bolstered by the support of executive champions. Our discussion stretches to the horizon of workplace agility, emphasizing the post-pandemic shift towards more adaptable practices and how these strategies are imperative for recruiting a diverse workforce, including the untapped potential of female talent. Join us for this enlightening session that not only plumbs the depths of Andrew's storied career but also offers invaluable insights into the profound relationship between human resources leadership and the vibrant tapestry of the modern workforce.
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Hello and welcome to Diverse and Inclusive Leaders. This is a show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I am really excited to be joined by the fantastic Andrew Neill. Andrew is the Chief People Officer for Nash Squared. He has a wealth of experience in the human capital transformation and people and culture agenda and, on top of the day role, he also is a member of the board of trustees. He's hugely passionate about diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity, culture in all of its holistic guises, and today we're going to be talking a lot about talent, succession planning and also, diversity being more than what just meets the eye.
Speaker 2Welcome to the show, andrew Hi Leila.
Speaker 1thank you great to be here. It's great to see you again. I've missed you. It's been too long since we caught up last time. Obviously, we know each other well, but it'd be wonderful for you to give us a bit of a whistle-stop tour as to how you came to be where you are today, through the career spanning everything from Tesco to MPG Group and beyond and keep it brief.
Speaker 2Um, so that I think. But, like a lot of people, didn't end up where I am by design. I think it's been some some fortuitous happenstance, but I left. I left school at 18, finished my levels um, had offers from uni but but didn't excite me, I think now realizing ridiculously activist pragmatists. So traditional academia just didn't suit me and I still have an itch to scratch around supporting young people understanding uh sort of future education routes from personal experience.
Speaker 2But I came out of school and went and did what we now call a modern apprenticeship in retail. So I started working in retail, ended up in somehow selling cars and then into recruitment consultancy, which I guess was sort of my first stretch of my legs into human capital. So I spent seven years in recruitment consultancy, jumped in house, so that was to, as you say, mpg group. They were a building contractor um, so so had been working in construction sector, so that felt like a logical step to move into ta in house, and that was in about 2007. So with, with hindsight, what was around the corner in 2008 was was challenging, but, but, but but that led to a move to tesco, which is just saying I spent five and a half great years at Tesco and it was at Tesco when I moved into operational HR. So I moved initially in talent acquisition and moved into operational HR, did great things, as a lot of people do at Tesco. You get a huge opportunity to move around the group and get some great experiences and work amongst some incredible HR leaders the Hayley Tatums and Alison Horners and Emma Taylors of this world, who I learned a huge amount from, and it was a privilege to watch, work and have coach and mentor and you know Teresa Proctor in particular spent a hell of a lot of time chipping edges off of Andrew and shaping. I know shaping the leader. I am today so forever grateful to all of those individuals.
Speaker 2I left there and went to a business called Communicist which was a marketing services business. My career had become increasingly global, increasingly international. My last role in Tesco had been an organizational design change role across Europe and Communisys was an international business and spent about nine and a half years there doing various things. We'd completed a public to private transaction with PLC listed when I started and moved into and we moved into private equity ownership in 2018. So that was an interesting change of dynamics and what does that mean to the people agenda and the culture of the organization, um, but we spent a lot of time growing the business internationally through 28 countries outside the uk, um, and then, yeah, and as you say, very, very recently, in the last two months, have moved to nash squared, um, which is a talent and technology organization.
Speaker 2Um, most people won't know nash squared, but, but a lot of people in our sector will know Harvey Nash, which is a longstanding technology recruiter, and Harvey Nash is part of the group. So we have a. We have a number of technology recruitment brands, but also a, a technology development business, which which has we've got teams, developers, sat in India and Vietnam creating bespoke software solutions. So, technology and talent, we uh creating endless opportunities, um, and yeah and um, chief people officer there and, uh, very much enjoying things wow, thanks so much, andrew.
Speaker 1It's, it's been a wonderful, serendipitous journey in a way, hasn't it? Because the early days starting in recruitment um working your way up up into then retail, the global landscape as well, and now almost coming full circle back to Harvey Nash, or Nash squared with the tech and the people side, it's, it's, it's really fascinating and interesting that you modestly say as well, you know that you know haven't necessarily planned to get to to where you are now, but that was another of my questions is, you know, just the personal uh? Did the personal background and your personal um journey have any impact? You think on how this interest in, in talent and driving um technology, world of work, etc. Um into yeah, I mean, I guess into where you are right now? Really, was it planned?
Impact of Diversity in Leadership Roles
Speaker 2uh, yeah, I'd love to say it was planned and and sound all clever and sophisticated, but it will be a right lie. I think what I've found is, as I've evolved into various roles and in different businesses, I've found that the the people role, the people leadership role, can scratch so many itches. You know you can. It's and I'm sure everyone sits on this, this podcast and totally similar in terms of the breadth of impact you can have. Is is inspiring and exciting. Uh, I think you know, in the right organization, you can be super commercial, so that you know that scratches my itch around. You know I came from a sales background, so you know the commerciality of how a business operates and the impact you have on helping the business to grow and move forward. Is is huge. I think you can do great things for individuals. We can help develop and grow and see people flourish. You know that's clearly a huge part of our role, um, guiding the organization's culture. I think it's just the breadth, the breadth that I've discovered you're able to to impact across. This role is and the chief people's role is is just exciting, right, and it's. I love variety. No, two days the same. Um, you know it's that, yeah, so I think it's just that ability to do so many different things sat in this chair and the view you get across the organization is is a privileged one, um, and, and you know, just super enjoyable. So so, yeah, I think that that, yeah, the personal journey of, of not necessarily following a traditional academic route, is, is, is is demonstrating that I guess people can do different things and really just need to be focused on what's important to them and what excites them.
Speaker 2I think, particularly in the space that you and I talk around around D&I and Dybec and your 10 facets, I think there's so much we can impact from this, this role, and again, that's whether that be around, you know, social mobility and different education routes, whether it be around now I've got a lot of personal empathy for, for a lot of the different facets you've got and and we talk to, whether it be parenting, care, responsibilities I'm a single dad, I have a neurodiverse daughter, um, so you know, when I'm talking about diabetic within my organization and previous organizations, we can talk.
Speaker 2You know I can talk more broadly. It's not just about race or gender or sexuality, you know, let's let's consider lots of other areas, and particularly around neurodiversity, as I'm learning more about either's needs and challenges and how I can support her. It's it's a really natural extension for that to then think, well, okay, so what am I doing in my business? How is my business supporting, you know, invisible disabilities and invisible challenges that my colleagues and and stuff might have. So I think being able to play personal experiences through the role is also, you know, makes it just super exciting thank you so much for sharing about Isla and Drew.
Speaker 1I think it is just so wonderful how you're utilizing the, you know the personal experiences and taking that into the world of work when it comes to talent and succession planning, because ultimately, this is about how we level the playing field, moving forwards for future generations of leaders.
Speaker 1And you know you touched on there, you know, with your own journey.
Speaker 1You know upward social mobility, um, you know the need for us to impact positively from a gender, gender planning point of view, but equally, um the, the flexibility within the workforce that is needed now, especially kind of in a post-pandemic and you know highly kind of well, lots of geopolitics going on at the moment, with 70 elections going on around the globe, yeah, but you know the landscape is needing to have this. You know this agility and this flexibility really, um, now to to cater to to different needs within the workplace, and you know, be that single parents, be it with, um, you know aging parents, um, it's not necessarily always possible to be in the office five days a week, and so ensuring that we can bring in talent, talent based on their needs, is also key, which is what I think you're also trying to, trying to pull out that yeah, yeah, definitely, and I think that the Covid and pandemics and the last few years that we've all lived through has forced us to challenge norms and social constructs that we just maybe just accepted.
Speaker 2Right, the, the work from home. We'd all talked about flexible working. We'd all talked about work from home. We all understood the benefits of time focused away from the office, on on detailed tasks, etc. But the the pandemic forced us to, to, to adopt and adapt and embrace right and now, as we kind of return to something that looks like with the cavities or you just mentioned, with the geopolitical landscape, something looks as close to business users we're going to get to, you know we're.
Speaker 2We're in a world of reset and and and refocus on what's important to people, and we, we do a nash square, do a what we call digital leadership report, which is a survey across the tech sector, and it talks about lots of trends in the tech sector, but one of it we talk a lot about DNR, and we talk about talent in the tech sector, in particular, around female talent in the tech sector, and the research that we found last year told us that the businesses that are mandating more than two days in the office are hiring 20% less female talent and you kind of go well. Well, that feels logical and obvious. And look, guess what? You know if you, if you want to attract diverse talent base, but it has to extend beyond female talent. It has to extend to, as you said, apparently, caring responsibilities. It might be parental, it might be for other relatives, doesn't matter what gender we are. You, you're going to potentially have those opportunities. So we're not just closing the door on on female talent, we're closing the door on diverse talent.
Speaker 2So there's definitely a reset around what are, what's the contract between employee and employer, around use of the office and and and how we make that work best for people to to to have an effective business, but also have an effective attraction of diverse talent and support that talent to be able to to, to meet his personal needs, and and We've used the office as an excuse to fix broken operating systems in businesses.
Speaker 2And that reset has to include how do we operate as a business and not being just taking a sweeping lazy statement. This has got to be in four to five days a week, because that's the only way we can work. Well, it might be, but equally, the more progressive businesses out there that want to attract and retain the best diverse talent are going to think about this differently and and it's you know I believe it's up to us, my profession, my peers to help businesses understand that that a we need to be able to attract the best and retain the best diverse talent and be providing an organized, an environment that's supportive yeah, it's interesting that you talk about, um, retention of the very best talent and, like you, I share the background of exec search and recruitment in the early days.
Speaker 1And I remember I won't say which retailer, but, um, I remember recruiting firstly malaysian, canadian lady into a large retailer and and um it was, it was great because we were looking at the succession planning and being very, very deliberate, but, um, we used to call it kind of organ rejection because there was not the culture and almost the you know the soil that would allow that talent to be able to thrive.
Speaker 1And so, circling back to the pieces you were saying around, making sure we essentially embed this talent, that we create an environment that allows the best talent to thrive, is key because otherwise we go backwards. And you know this was a positive but then also negative story and that this individual and I remember saying to the retail at the time you have got to create an environment, because no point just hiring diverse or what you believe to be diverse quote unquote and not really embedding the talent into the business itself. And then you know she ended up leaving, actually a year later and everyone was like, oh my goodness, we should have all you know, should have just recruited the same type of person, et cetera, and you kind of you know, you just you know it's such a balancing act and interesting juxtaposition.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think it's understanding the breadth of diverse talent beyond the obvious. You know, and you know I were talking, and I said that when I, when I started at nash squared, my predecessor, melanie hayes, fantastic, um, when I joined the board, there were a few questions that came through to, to bev, my boss, cc kizek, and I. That said, have we not taken a backward step for our diversity by by replacing a female leader with a male leader, um, which you know what? On the surface it, yeah, look, that's one perspective. But then very quickly, sort of, I started sharing with the organisation and Bev and I did a blog, a conversational blog, where we talked about what D&I meant to us and how, you know, it's much broader than gender, race, whatever it might be that you're focused on that particular day, and so I started sharing about, look, my caring responsibilities. So I have empathy with you if you're caring. I've got the stuff we talked about briefly with isla.
Speaker 2So I think that, yeah, the, the, the, uh, the obligation is around broadening the conversation and and and by doing so, I think you're creating those environments that embrace diversity, and it doesn't matter whether we're talking about race or nationality, or ethnicity. You know we're talking about an environment that accepts everyone for who they are and makes it a welcoming space and allows people to feel comfortable in their own skin in that environment indeed, and yeah, we mentioned just before this my little story about the steves and the fact that, um, you know which which leads actually into allyship really nicely, which we've kind of barely even spoken about, is, you know the sense of, you know, almost, if we continue to preach to the converted, um, you know be it kind of.
Speaker 1You know, women talking to other women. You know chinese people talking to other chinese people, how do we actually um utilize um power and influence to bring other people up into the conversation? And, um, you know, this is far beyond um, what is just on the surface level with the you know three Steve's I mentioned before chief executives. We know that there are more Steve's in in the footsie than there are women, but equally, um, there is, you know, in Steve Ingham's case. You know only chief exec in a wheelchair who is in the foot C250.
Speaker 1Steve Rowe, you know amazing story of upward social mobility, from starting as a shelf stacker in Marks and Spencer's and making it who was the chief exec for the co-op. You know, had you have not asked the question, you wouldn't have known that he had lost his wife and had been, you know, a single parent and has two children with the combined mental age of five, careful in what is a pretty polarizing landscape, not helped sometimes by the media. We will continue to look at things in very, very siloed ways. It is about the holistic nature and us um going far beyond what is just on on the surface level, um dynamic.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, I totally, totally agree.
Speaker 1Sandra, I'd love to pivot the conversation into allyship and some of the things that you're doing around allyship at Nash Square. Clearly, you're looking at a number of these different initiatives at the moment to be able to really level the playing field and look at how we can succession plan, uh as well, talk to me a little bit about, um, the power of allyship yeah, I mean, like most people, we're doing.
Employee Resource Groups
Speaker 2We're doing some of the things that that you'd expect us to do and we should be doing. Um, we have a series of employee resource groups. We work across four different ergs and I'd love to take credit for all of this work, but I must be clear this is a team event and, uh, and the fine folks in nashville have been working on this for a long time, but, but we have some really strong employee resource groups who who really own the, the agenda around both holding the business to account, around doing the right things for, for, for, for diversity, but equally, helping the business understand um, sharing knowledge, sharing insight, and you know we've got a fantastic webinar coming up in for black history month. We have, uh, uh, our we have a work of mashability, which is our disability network, who are helping to educate the business on different um conditions and and how we can support colleagues moving forward. Um, you know. So there's a lot of work coming out, but the thing that I'm most proud about about these groups is, yeah, look, they have ex-co-sponsors, right, and, and the ex-co-sponsor there to help, you know, support, remove barriers, accelerate and and all those right things, but equally, it's just so much energy from inside the business.
Speaker 2The, the dni council, is run by chad called akish, who's one of our, our senior recruiters in harvey nash sits in london around the corner from my desk, but he's just his passion and energy for this subject is is unrelenting and he's quite the force of nature.
Speaker 2But he's joined by a hell of a lot of colleagues from around the group who have an equal passionate and it creates these kind of allies, it creates these sort of super experts, it creates these kind of flames and energy points around across the group and and they by osmosis and by just talking all the time around what they're doing and going back to their teams and sharing the last, the minutes from the last erg meeting or or say no, you know, we need some more membership in this group. It just creates an energy around the subject and and, like I said, having the having the erg groups focused on on particular areas is really helpful, um, and allows them to be super focused in what they're then feeding back into the business. So, um, you know, just constant 360 operation, listening to what the business needs and getting feedback on the initiatives we're running. Um, but, yeah, it's, it's trying to create awareness, understanding, empathy, sympathy across across the group. They're running um, but yeah, it's, it's trying to create awareness and understanding, empathy, sympathy across across the group.
Speaker 1They're doing a fantastic job awareness, sympathy and understanding absolutely articulates everything that employee resource groups can achieve when, um, they're really mobilized well, and we've seen over the last decade this power of employee resource groups, voluntary groups, business resource groups, even in some sense it's become such a force for change. Um, you know, rise on. As an example, it's got 25 000 people in their employee resource groups and these are, you know, these are often voluntary, voluntary pieces that are side of the desk. At times we think, oh my goodness, in terms of engagement, um, people really fueling passion around these various different subjects.
Speaker 2That is a huge driver for business performance as well it is massively, and I think you know, this year, the, the exec, are taking so much more interest as well, because I think that one of the things we're we're focused on this year is how we recognize and support those colleagues. Because, you're absolutely right, it's off the side of their desk. They're not getting paid for it, that you know. It's no additional reward in terms of financial, um. So how do we a recognize the commitment and the, the sacrifice they're making? Because you know, effectively, you know this drags into their own time, because you know there's only so many hours of the day. You know they're squeezing in around busy day jobs, um, and, and it's an important subject, so you know we have to value the work they're doing.
Speaker 2So I know, um, I said to bed my chief exec, she, she attended our, our nash pride group um last week and and she came out absolutely buzzing, you know, just from from from, having spent an hour with that team talking around the plans for the year and and and and the energy that they've got behind. What they want to do immediately was firing off instructions to the rest of the exec around what needed to go to this website and read about this, and I want you to be, you need to be part of this meeting, and you'll be missing out if you're not part of that. So you know, that's that's what we can do to support them.
Speaker 1Right, we can, we can, we can show up, we can listen, we can understand, and then we can amplify the message, and I think that's really important for them indeed, um, makes me think of a statistic that I heard recently around that sense of belonging and how, if we don't feel that we belong, we spend 30% of our time thinking about how we fit in. And so, hearing that the employee resource groups are also being backed by the exec, which is key because we know that if this is not buy-in, or there is no buy-in from the top, it's never going to transcend down through the roots and the leaves of the organization. But equally that listening that respect, um, you know, allowing these clearly very passionate employee resource groups to um be along and utilize that as a key driver for engagement is it's superb, superb, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2Before we wrap up, andrew, I'd love to ask a couple of lightning engagement is superb, superb.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. Before we wrap up, andrew, I'd love to ask a couple of lightning round questions, if I may. Of course, I'm going to give you a few seconds to answer each, starting probably with the hardest one first. Okay, what would you say if anything has been your secret to success?
Speaker 2um, personally, I have an incredibly strong value around do what you say you're going to do. You know, just don't let people down. Um, and it's kind of my, it's always been my focus around that and I think the kind of feedback that I always received and value the most with you. So if you, if you want something done, give it to andrew. He'll get it sorted and you can trust him to deal with it. My old chief is. He used to say I just know I can give you something and if in a couple of weeks you'll come back and tell me it's done or you'll come and tell me what you need to actually get it done, so I think that do what you say you're going to do um and and without exceptional and managing stakeholders to answer no one likes surprises.
Speaker 2Um, you know. So do what you say you're going to do it's great advice.
Speaker 1It's great advice and anything that you might have said to your younger self if you, if you were to go back in time um, perhaps the early car sales days, or indeed someone who's about to embark on a similar journey and wondering what they may do next don't do it, get out of class.
Speaker 2I was pretty kind of um, trust your gut, right? I think you know your, your, what, however you describe it, your gut instinct, your spider senses, whatever they might be. When, when something doesn't feel right, your body, you're telling yourself that for a reason. Pause, think, challenge, trust your gut? I think it's absolutely. I learned the hard way over the years. When you don't trust your gut and and something goes wrong, and so the benefit of hindsight, tell the youngsters yeah, when it don't feel right, there's a reason for it, so have a think about why and finally, who has been your the biggest inspiration, your hero, your chiro?
Speaker 1I know you've mentioned a couple of um other brilliant people leaders as well at the beginning of the podcast, but yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I mean there's lots, right, I think there's.
Speaker 2there's so many brilliant people out there that you know that I've either directly interacted with who have, you know, been on powerful journeys. I think I took a lot from from Sheryl Sandberg and her experiences. You know, I think everyone knows and read, probably read Lean In and all the great work she's done around there. But but her book, option B, around resilience and sort of how she coped with her, her personal strategy and and and and journey and just the real world advice around resilience I think we said about geopolitical landscape, right, it's been a tough few years for folk and resilience is so, so important. So, yeah, I think you know Cheryl's incredibly inspirational in that space.
Speaker 2I'm a bit of a sport maniac, so kind of I tend to look at sport for a lot of these inspirations. I think folks like Toto Wolff how he runs the Mercedes F1 team authentically, his work around inclusion for women into F1, the work he does with Susie Wolff I think is remarkable. So, yeah, so authentic leaders who show real resilience those are some of the ones that kind of probably top my time.
Speaker 1Andrew, thank you so much. I you know I don't even know where to start actually to summarize this podcast, because we've covered such a lot of different areas. But, um, you know, I will say this I think you've really shown the power of vulnerability and humility in the importance of leadership when you share stories like this. I think it transcends the power for others to feel safe in sharing their stories but equally being flexible within the workforce, being agile, being nimble, making sure you do what you're going to say that you do in order to continue to foster that sense of culture, that sense of engagement. Additionally, we talked about intersectionality.
Speaker 1I think that was such a you know, such a well-made point by you around diversity being so much more than just on the surface level. It transcends to parenthood, it transcends to caring responsibilities. Making sure that we are asking the questions, we're really listening and seeking to understand, as opposed to having all of the answers as well is another real key learning. And you know, finally, the piece around tenacity, as well as some of the sporting analogies, I think is key because we're in such a and it feels like we're always saying this, doesn't it? We're in a volatile, uncertain world right now. Be consistent is the relationships that we have and that power of connectivity, and so um really really have enjoyed the podcast and think there's some some brilliant learnings there from you, andrew, so thank you very, very much indeed thank you, they let's be great fun.
Speaker 1Thank you my name is layla mckenzie dallas. I'm'm the founder and CEO of Darl Global. You've been listening to the fabulous Andrew Neil from Nash Squared. If you've been affected by any of the issues today, please make sure that you reach out. All the show notes will be in the podcast at the end of today's show. On our website, wwwdarlglobalorg. Forward slash podcast and you can also download. Please do hit subscribe on your favourite podcast app via Apple, spotify or whichever platform you choose to use. In the meantime, take good care and we'll look forward to seeing you again next week.