Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Embracing Diversity and Authentic Leadership: Nicola Grant's Path to Success in Global HR
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Embark on an enlightening journey with us as we sit down with Nicola Grant, Chief People Officer at Hiscox, who opens up about climbing the ranks in the complex sphere of global human resources. Breaking through the confines of a homogenous upbringing, Nicola became a pioneer for her family by venturing into the world of academia and emerging as a champion of diversity and inclusion. Our conversation takes a deep dive into the pivotal moments of her life, from supporting her husband through career and health hurdles to seizing the helm of her own professional odyssey, illustrating the profound impact of embracing opportunity and positivity.
In a candid exchange, we unravel the often-overlooked concept of psychological safety and its indispensable role in the workplace. My personal anecdotes from the contrasting corporate cultures of New York and Amsterdam enrich this exploration, highlighting the trials and triumphs of nurturing an inclusive atmosphere amidst diverse backgrounds. The narrative underscores how allyship and the nuanced, invisible facets of diversity shape the fabric of belonging within a company. Nicola's insights into the transformative influence of a supportive CHRO lay bare the truth that diversity is not just a moral choice but also a cornerstone of successful business practice.
As we wrap up our episode, we delve into the transformative nature of leadership, celebrating authenticity and the power of individuality at the office. Nicola and I ponder the value of enlisting a myriad of perspectives and creating a space for equality and honest conversation. We acknowledge diverse leadership as both a commercial necessity and a key to winning over customers' hearts, stressing the significance of authenticity and humanity in today's leadership roles. Our discussion on personal growth shines a light on the importance of lifelong learning, the impactful nature of feedback, and the journey to a fulfilling career—reminding us that the steps we take towards our own development can lead to profound satisfaction in our professional lives.
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Hello and welcome to Diverse and Inclusive Leaders. This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I am really excited to be joined by Nicola Grant. Nicola is the Chief People Officer for Hiscox, a well-known brand of which we are, at Dial, also a customer, a well-known brand of which we are, at Dial, also a customer. Nicola worked previously for large global organisations, including ING, where she was Senior HR Director across the board within global functions and, interestingly, she started her career not within HR but within the household name Boots. We're going to be talking about a range of different subjects today, everything from diversity and inclusion through to cross-cultural leadership. Welcome to the show, nicola.
Speaker 2Thank you very much. That's a very nice introduction and I'm so happy you're on brand and being insured by Hiscox. It's good to hear.
Speaker 1And we get a great service as well. And I swear I'm not paying us to say this. But, nicola, I'm so pleased to have you on the show and, as I said before we started, I have been stalking your profile for some while. Tell us a little bit about how you came to be where you are today.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, I start back where I grew up. I mean, I grew up in the Midlands, a small town in Northamptonshire, where I think everybody sort of looked the same, everyone was pretty much outwardly the same, and I think throughout my childhood I've always had a really strong kind of learning orientation. I've always been really curious about everything, to be honest, and we would visit London with my family and I would be so fascinated by, you know, the rich sort of multicultural environment that I would see, which was nothing like where I grew up and I found it quite exciting and I definitely wanted to experience more of that. My parents didn't go to university. Academic success wasn't really a priority for them. You know, working hard, treating people well, having good manners, all of those things were really important, but there was no pressure or really expectation to be academically successful and most of my childhood I was spent sort of outdoors riding horses. You know, I assumed I would do something I don't know a professional horse rider, something with animals. I didn't expect to be doing the job I am today. I didn't even know, probably, what this job was or that it even existed. But I was the eldest child, I was the first person to go to university in the family and I think going to university really opened my eyes to the world of possibilities. You know, I absolutely loved meeting people from all walks of life. I loved the sort of rich, diverse and vibrant sort of environment that I was part of and in freedom really to show up as yourself. I mean, I'd come from an environment which was everyone was very similar and there weren't really anybody that was different. So just being in that kind of environment I absolutely loved.
Speaker 2I mean, you mentioned I didn't start in HR and I didn't. I worked for Boots. That was my first job out of university and I really fell into HR as a career because I followed my husband to London after we graduated to London. After we graduated he got a job on a graduate program and so I left my job at Boots, which I actually really loved, and followed him and it was totally normal for me to expect that his career would come first and that I would support him and that I would probably pay less attention to my own career. So followed him to London and, as a result of that, actually looked for roles, looked for jobs and ended up finding a position which led to me eventually being in HR. But it wasn't a thought process where I thought this is the job I absolutely want to do and I'm going to try to get into this industry. It just really wasn't.
Speaker 2And then, you know, over time things changed for us. My husband suffers from some health problems and that's really meant over time that his career started to take a back seat and eventually he gave up work. So that was a real challenge for us as a couple. You know it's a very different dynamic. First of all, you know his career was sort of leading and then suddenly you know he's taking his career takes a back seat, leading, and then suddenly you know he's taking his career, takes a back seat. But it actually that was an opportunity for me because it meant that my career was able to flourish in a way that I don't think it would have otherwise done. Obviously I would prefer he was well, but I don't think I'd be doing the job I'm doing today if he hadn't changed sort of his, his career aspirations in that way. I think I, you know, it just wouldn't have happened. Um, and the fact that he's incredibly supportive and he's been flexible and willing to move for my career has has enabled me to take some of the opportunities that that I've been offered actually, such as international roles, um. So, yeah, I think that that definitely changed things. I'm I'm a real believer in, you know, positive mindset and the power of a positive outlook, and we could have easily taken a different path when he became ill, but actually we've made the best, I think, and the most out of our circumstances and so, yeah, whilst it wasn't planned, I have always taken opportunities and roles that excite me and I've made most out of every opportunity that I've been given.
Speaker 2And, as you said, I'm now the Chief People Officer of Hiscox. It's a UK listed business. It's headquartered in Bermuda and it's an insurance company of nearly three and a half thousand people. We've got 34 offices in 14 countries and I've been here now since September 22.
Speaker 2I joined after spending 17 years actually at ING, so I was at ING for a long time, based in various different locations, and I was hired to transform the HR function very much with the agenda, to make it scalable, more strategic, very much a partner that influences business outcomes, and I think one of the first things that I did when I took the role was to change the title, so from HR to people actually. So we're now known as the people function, and you know that for me is really important because words do matter and language matters and I think sort of treating humans as resources is not the values that we have as an organisation and people feel far more aligned to our values. So that's something that I was very passionate about and I'm really proud for a company that lives its values. So yeah, and I think you know we've got a number of priorities as a function and they all boil down to having the right people with the right skills in the right place, and for that that means we require diversity of skills, thoughts, backgrounds, and building this into everything that we're doing is is really important to me. Over over my career, what I've seen actually is that you really do need to build it into everyday processes. If it's an add-on, you know whether you you have somebody that only focuses on that and it isn't part of everyone's daily work.
Speaker 2I think in the past that hasn't worked for me so well. It being integrated into the systems is really critical, and it's probably a bit of a controversial opinion, because I know that you're a massive champion of chief diversity officers and I don't want to take away anything from the great work that they do, chief diversity officers and you know I don't want to take away anything from the great work that they do, but I think partnering with the people function, really understanding how to embed what they do into all the processes and practices that we, that we have, is absolutely, you know, critical if you're going to make an impact. And I'm not always sure we do that well enough. And, and you know I have a real belief as well that if we put our attention into developing amazing leaders and you develop management practices that are fit for the organization, that can have a really sort of an exponential impact in the outcomes for DE&I and belonging. And those things always sound really easy, but you know they're very difficult to achieve often. And those things always sound really easy, but you know they're very difficult to achieve often. You know, we know behaviour change is really hard and trying to make it as simple as possible by embedding it in the things that we already do, I think it is an easier way of getting people to change their behaviour.
Speaker 2And you know examples of things like talent acquisition. You know, do we ensure that our talent acquisition colleagues have a process by which business leaders are only shown short lists of candidates that are diverse, and if they, if they don't have a diverse list, then they don't show that to the the business leader and you can't progress with the recruitment activity. Those types of things really help to to just make it part of the way we do things. Um, the other thing I've observed being coming from insurance, from from banking. Insurance is quite insular as a sector. A lot of people know each other.
Speaker 2It's very relationship driven and hiring outside of sector isn't always as typical as I would see in other industries. So finding ways to bring talent in from different backgrounds is something that I'm very passionate about and it will be a key pillar of our talent acquisition and early careers approach as we sort of develop that out over the next, over the next months. And and that also brings me to the skills agenda part of what we're, what we're also focused on, is, if you strip away some of the specific experience requirements, some of the specific education requirements, and focus really precisely on the specific skills you need for a role, um, that automatically opens up a whole world of possible candidates that you otherwise wouldn't have considered. So transitioning to a skills-based organization is something that we're also building towards at Hiscock. So we've got a.
Speaker 2We've got a really, really nice agenda. I mean, it's a phenomenal company with, with just brilliant opportunity to make an impact and that's what I love about it. But, yeah, so big agenda, but that's kind of a potted history of how I ended up in the position I'm in today.
Speaker 1Nicola, you have no idea how difficult it was for me not to interrupt because I've been sat there just being like, oh my goodness, there's so many things I wanted to say. And what's wonderful is your humility as you talk through this potted history of what is actually an incredible success, an incredible success personally and professionally. When you mention you know, even back to your parents, you know this story of upward social mobility. You talk so beautifully about you and your husband and he sounds amazing as well, nathan, that you've had, you know this relationship since you know teens essentially, and you've then shared and it has been. You know what is. You know often people forget. You know often people forget how you know gender equality and the stereotypical roles even a decade, two decades ago, were so unbelievably different. And so actually, you know really owning that as a couple and between you I just think that is wonderful and getting into as well the skills as well. It's super interesting.
Speaker 1But the the journey to getting to the top as chief people officer absolutely concur, by the way, on the title change and how were you saying was it has a function? I literally I've never heard that. Um, I love the title chief people officer, but the whole functionality of that side of things in language is so key as we are adapting and living in such a modern and fast-paced world and, as you were talking, it made me think talent is everywhere and opportunity is not, and so clearly it is something that runs deep with you personally, but you know, clearly feeds from the top as well now Aki, who speaks super highly of you and upward social mobility is something which is key, and so I just yeah, it's wonderful that you have have been, you know, personal proponent and champion for that as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, exactly Definitely.
The Importance of Psychological Safety
Speaker 1So, moving gears slightly into some of the other great work that you're doing around belonging and inclusion, Talk to us a little bit more about kind of this. You know the concept of belonging and why psychological safety is so important, and you know equally, I think, a lot of this you may well have learned from living and working abroad in many different places and with truly global organisations truly global organizations.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean I think having, you know, diverse, inclusive workplace where people feel they belong and that they are psychologically safe I, you know, don't very often hear people disagreeing with that. It's quite hard to disagree with as a concept and we all know that environments where people, um, feel like that do the best work. And you know you talk about this a lot on your podcast and I'm totally in agreement that there's real evidence that links that to business performance. So I'm not saying everyone gets it right, but I don't. Often people say it's not the right thing to do. However, I think you know I've worked, as you say, for global organisations and I now have experience of living and working abroad as well and I genuinely believe in these things and I think it's great to believe in these things. But what I've learned in my career is it takes intentional effort to make it a reality for people.
Speaker 2I mean, I worked in wholesale banking for most of my career. Most of the time I was the only woman on leadership teams, I was the only woman in a particular group, but it actually, for most of my career, didn't make any difference. It wasn't something that I particularly had any kind of issue with or even noticed. Most of the time I felt included. I felt part of the team. I felt, you know, I had great leaders and I think you know I worked with some phenomenal people where culture was very much set at the top and I've had fantastic men support me throughout my career. So that whole concept of allyship has been really, really important to me. But that all worked wonderfully.
Speaker 2And you know, I worked in London for an international organization Global Teams, international organization, global teams and then I moved to the Netherlands and you know, that really taught me probably that I wasn't doing enough. So you know, first of all, if I think back to sort of how I ended up in the Netherlands, we we had a sort of talent approach at my previous organization, which was that, you know, we identified talents that were internationally mobile and I was never identified as somebody that was internationally mobile because there was a belief by my manager that I was a woman who was married and therefore I wouldn't want to work and live abroad, which I thought was really interesting, because that person had never asked me the question and he just assumed I wouldn't want to leave the UK. Now, that wasn't true and he also wasn't aware of my own situation or my husband's health and so much of diversity that we see is not visible, right, and the fact that I was dealing with those home circumstances which were changing it never came up because he never talked about it, he never asked me and probably to a certain extent, you know, I didn't talk about it either, so it was just sort of something that it was never. It was never really a topic. And then I was offered an opportunity to do an assignment in New York which was just came up by chance. They needed somebody to do something. I had the skills and they just asked if I would. I would sort of step in and actually it worked really well, family wise, and I said, yes, I would do it. It and my first international experience working in New York was amazing. I mean, it was such an easy move for me. It felt like home away from home.
Speaker 2My first year in Amsterdam couldn't have been different. Um, so I moved from London to New York. I spent a few years there absolutely phenomenal experience and then I moved to Amsterdam and it was the first time I'd worked as part of a team where English wasn't the main language. You know, I'm very lucky in that English is my first language. Most organizations have English as a corporate language and so did my previous company. But actually often meetings would start in Dutch. The general chit chat in the meetings was in Dutch. You know, at the desks that was also the case. Often the social references I didn't understand. So even if the conversation was in English, I didn't always feel like I could contribute or I could really relate or be included. And what was really interesting is I'd worked for that company for nine years by the time I worked moved to the Netherlands. I knew my colleagues really, really well. I liked them all, um, I would say I had good relationships with them all. So I didn't expect this experience. I really thought it was going to be an easy move and you know the ways of working in the Netherlands are really different as well.
Speaker 2I come from an Anglo-Saxon environment in London and New York. You know people were in the office at least five days a week. It was very hard work most of the time. It's that sort of work hard, play hard sort of environment. And suddenly I was managing people in a consensus driven culture where people work from wherever they wanted. Often they weren't in the office and I really felt like an outsider for the first time and it was quite difficult for me actually to adjust and it took me a while to adjust.
Speaker 2I mean, I think it probably took me a year to settle into that job which, considering I'd worked there for so long and I know everyone, I thought that was unbelievable. I was so incredibly lucky that I had a phenomenal CHRO who was an amazing inclusive leader and he transformed that whole team and it really became a very diverse and inclusive group and so over time that shift of composition of the team helped me in all honesty, and you know it was a more international group over time, which was far easier for me to feel like part of the team. But that experience of it being really hard work, you know it's remained with me because when you're the only one, that's different. It's a very different experience. No matter how inclusive I thought different, it's very it's a very different experience, no matter how inclusive I thought I was previously. It is a very different experience and and you don't really know what that's like unless you've been part of a group where you don't fit in, um, you know.
Speaker 2And so when building diverse teams, I don't think we always acknowledge that that's also a challenge. If you're trying to build a diverse team and you're the first person that's different, we don't always put support around those individuals to help them succeed. So I'm a massive, massive believer as well in sort of wrapping support around diverse candidates and diverse colleagues, because I think that's the only way also to make them successful. Simply saying that we're inclusive and we've got diverse people here, that that's not actually good enough and it doesn't work enough. So for me, really, the commitment to building diverse teams has really stemmed from that experience and making sure that everyone's voice is heard, that people feel included, and that I make it an intentional part of the way I work and manage teams, and it's been something that's been very important to me and I think I pay far more attention to it now and again.
Speaker 1I genuinely thought I was an inclusive leader previously, but I think I've just learned an enormous amount now going through that that sort of whole process myself it's a brilliant example of that sense of really not feeling that you fit in and really interesting as well when you started talking about this and we were mentioning psychological safety. It really is that amount of time that you are then spending probably worrying about how you fit in and putting that into the context of that being an everyday reality. Imagine if that went into productivity. To your later point is diversity of talent. One thing of what visible diversity looks like, but equally, as you said, the invisible diversity and asking these questions and often perhaps not in an intentional way from your manager at the time, but just presuming that you would not want to go because of A, b or C.
Speaker 1And it kind of takes me back to my days in exec search and talent and often used to say that it's no good just having the diverse talent if there isn't the environment for which it is able to flourish, and so it's, it's great that you had been in that business for some time and I guess almost had a run-up before having this, yeah, this um, experience where suddenly you felt like the outsider, because then to have lost that talent, it's. You know, I used to call it organ rejection, and then you'd end up often with hiring managers or ceos and such going. Well, we tried to hire diverse. It didn't work, so we'll go back to you know, like example and insurance, just hiring someone that we happen to know that was doing something identical, without the diversity of mindset or skill set or characteristics and such um.
Speaker 2But yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I think I was so incredibly lucky that I did know the organization. And I do reflect on had I been a new hire from outside, I I would have left, I'm really sure of it. I I would not, I don't think, have stayed there throughout that year to sort of tough it out in some ways. You know I knew people enough that actually it was a lovely organisation. I had colleagues that I liked and even though it was difficult, I was connected enough to the organisation that it was worth sort of continuing to strive through that.
Speaker 1I really think if I'd been a new hire, that might have been a very different outcome actually and it shows as well, like you say, the power of leaders, bosses and brilliant male allies as well, that you had someone who was willing to step up to, you know, because we all need arms wrapping around us at times. Great talent needs to have a good home with which to flourish, and so having great leaders who have been really supportive of you growing throughout those difficult chapters has clearly been another big piece to the journey. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about diverse and inclusive leadership, of which you're absolutely a diverse and inclusive leader. And actually another thing I was going to mention, circling right back, is the piece around HR and diversity and how.
Impactful Diverse Leadership in Business
Speaker 1You know, no offence at all to chief diversity officers, but something which I think is also really key and something I would love to pick up on is having a really inclusive HR function and this where the diversity officer sits, or the diversity person sits in an organisation which has got this people first culture as you do, this people first culture as you do, great, the dni ladders into that place because it is a you know, it's like golden thread that weaves throughout absolutely every function strategically, but equally, there are places where actually, if and again, you know, mentioning no one at all. But if the HR function is not a full, a fully trusted people function, then actually the two can be quite conflicted. So, um, so yeah, just circling back to that actually was a really interesting learning point and I was meaning to mention it before. Um, but anyway, back to diverse inclusive leadership.
Speaker 2What does this mean to you, nicola, and has it changed over time? Yeah, I mean, look, I think you know, in the work context, it really means to be able to bring your whole self to work, ensuring that, as a leader, you're surrounding yourself with people who are different from you in probably every way. It means acknowledging that you can't know what it's like for someone else in the group. So giving everyone's voice of equal airtime and being intentional about how you build a psychologically safe environment so that everyone can express themselves, I think that's really important and enables you to get the best out of the team, which is, you know, what we all want to do in the end. I mean, we all want to make an impact, but business benefit is clear. So, just you know, doing the right thing is not what it's about. I mean that is important, but it's really a commercial decision to get the best out of everyone and I think that's incredibly important. But I also think, acknowledging that there are many facets to a person that you know you won't experience, you, you won't necessarily see and you don't always need to be aware, but you do need to make sure that you're not putting expectations on people in a way, you know, in how they do things, for example.
Speaker 2So you know we I work all hours of the day, you know I I'm very happy to work weekends, evenings, whatever, but actually what matters to me and my team is that they deliver the things we've agreed they're going to deliver.
Speaker 2How they deliver those things is up to them and I am very happy that they fit that around their life. And I think if we're more focused on, you know, the outcomes that we're trying to achieve and less worried about controlling individuals inputs, you know everything becomes a lot easier from an inclusion perspective. So for me, it comes back again to good leadership. I'm absolutely passionate about the, the importance of leadership and inclusion. Um, you know, good leadership really does manage delivery, it manages outcomes and it leaves it down to the professionals that we hire how they do that. And unfortunately, you know there's a lot of poor examples out there where where we don't do that well and I think that's really a shame and I think that's where we lose sort of diversity in organizations, because often they can't work within the construct that we put in place. So for me, yeah, it's about that understanding and considering the whole individual.
Speaker 1Yeah, Nicole, I'm really trying to find something where I disagree with you to make things more interesting, but I cannot.
Speaker 1I love that you said about diversity being a commercial lever and also that it is not something which is fluffy, um, and you know, pink or multi-coloured and whatever that might be, because often and there would be, I'm sure, many people that would disagree with me on this, but I don't, and this has evolved for me every time is, I don't think it is a charitable initiative, is a commercial and strategic imperative and imperative.
Speaker 1And so the fact that you talk about it in a very, you know, straight talking, with diversity, benefits, outcomes focus, delivery, yet also, as you said, getting that fit around the nuances of what is important to allow talent to thrive, and that means, at times, equity and treating people differently. Um, but really, how much is there a not care, but how much do we really need to know about every granular detail if the outcomes focus is there and sounds like you, um, you know, really learn a lot about this within the dutch culture, which makes me smile as well, because I have a couple of uh, friends and you know a ceo who is dutch and he's just so straight talking because, yeah, a huge amount. I kind of definitely think I've learned that over the years to be honest.
Speaker 2But but you know, in terms of business imperative, I mean, the reality is we all know the companies that haven't survived because they haven't adapted. And if I think about our business, you know most of the small businesses in the UK. You know they're not owned by white middle class men. You know they are started by all sorts of different people and unless we can start serving their needs in a way that is, you know, that is something that resonates with them, actually we're also going to fail as a company. So I think there is something around understanding the audience, understanding your customer and representing the customer, and so I don't think people would argue with those things, but it's actually very difficult then to put that into practice and make it happen. But I think there's, you know. That's why the opportunity is there for us. I think there's an enormous amount of upside for us getting this right amount of upside for us getting this right.
Speaker 1That's so well said and I think, more and more so these days. There is, there is intent from the customer to look at leadership, to look at those values. And you know again, not not just saying this because we are a customer, but when you see and you feel the humanity behind the stories of people who are at the top yourself, aki, others it really it makes you want to remain a customer of that business versus another. Because in a world where you know, frankly, and especially the younger generations I mean, goodness is over five now in the workforce there is a significant care and buying power from others. Be it, you know b2b, b2c brands in the kind of brands and what leaders within those organizations stand for. So, um, again, absolutely agree. I need to find something to disagree with you um lightning round.
Speaker 1If I may, um ask you a couple of tricky questions. Um hardest one first what is your secret to success, or is there one?
Speaker 2I'm not sure, I don't know. I don't know that I have any kind of secret. I mean, um, you know, I think we all have the same 168 hours a week. I'm not sure I do anything fundamentally different to anyone else. I mean, I do love what I do and often it doesn't feel like work to me. You know the fact that I I'm deeply curious about all things I'm constantly learning, probably to the irritation of my team as well, because I'm always coming up with ideas and things that I want to try.
Speaker 2Um, but you know, I've been given opportunities, but I think I've been selective about the opportunities as well. I have always taken roles that I have been excited about, where the content has been really interesting to me. I've turned down a lot of roles where it's just about the title or the money, because I really love what I do and you spend a lot of hours working. So I think doing something that you love is really important. You know where you can make an impact, but you've got to enjoy what you're doing.
Speaker 2And you know where you can make an impact, but you've got to enjoy what you're doing and you know I want to leave things better than I found them. So if I'm not excited about it and I'm not going to put the effort into it and all of myself into it, then you know I'd rather pass on that opportunity. So I think it's probably a combination of all of those things learning, curiosity, positive outlook and, you know, taking the opportunities that really align with my values, probably, and the things that I find interesting. Um, because then work, I think, feels less like work and more like something that you just love doing indeed, and um, learning is yeah, I mean, it's absolutely at the heart of everything.
Speaker 1I'm a believer that when you're not learning anymore, you're kind of it. You know you're almost dead, really, aren't you? And so that curiosity is, you can see the like your eyes light up when you're talking um, and who's inspired you, would you say, most throughout your career and or your life, other than your brilliant husband?
Speaker 2yeah, of course, I know well, I think, lots of people um, you know, I've been really lucky to work with some really brilliant people and, I think, people that deeply care about what they do and they're contributing to something bigger than themselves, I think those are the kinds of people that I'm really drawn to. Um, I'm also drawn to, you know, people that are really authentically themselves. So I absolutely love people's stories. I love it when people are unapologetically kind of really themselves, and I like to have different views, so that I find very, very nice and I've been lucky enough to have multiple examples of people in my life that have met those criteria.
Speaker 2I suppose my previous CHRO was one of those. I mean larger than life character probably gave me the hardest feedback in my career, but he always did it from a place that he wanted to get the best out of me, and so I really felt like totally supported that he always had my back and he wanted me to be even better and I'm so grateful for him. You know the investment he made in me and my career, I think, enabled me to really develop and accelerate in a way that probably I wouldn't have done otherwise. So, you know, I think, I think I would say him that's a great answer and I mean I'd love to.
Speaker 1I'm breaking my own rules here with the lightning round. I'd love to ask another question, because delivering feedback is one of those really difficult things. So the very best of people leaders like yourself manage to do that. Talk us through, if you wouldn't mind, a little bit around that. I think it's something that we don't talk about enough is how to deliver feedback. But equally, there's times that great leaders like yourself and others will recall how much of a challenging time they had when they hit rock bottom because someone said this and that, but actually they.
Speaker 2It was almost an inflection point for them yeah, yeah, no, look, I think there's a couple of things that he did and which I try to do now as well with my own team, and the first thing is he would always give feedback in the moment. So after we'd been at a board meeting or a leadership team meeting, afterwards he would always say a couple of the things that he thought went really well, and he would always say at least one thing that he thought you could do differently and, and because it was in the moment, actually, you know, it's in in your mind, it's fresh and, and I found that very useful. And and I think the other thing that he really did which I very much appreciated, I genuinely always thought the feedback was coming from a place that he wanted me to be better. It wasn't a criticism or, um, you know, he wasn't trying to undermine me in any way. It was always from a place where he wanted, um, you know, me to develop and me to be better than I was, and he used to always have this phrase that he wants people to live up to their own greatness, which I always found, being British, a bit of a, I hated that, um, and I really couldn't contemplate sort of being great or something, but I think that he gave me the confidence to stretch myself because I always knew he had my back and I really do think in the moment, feedback is absolutely key, I think, not giving a laundry list of things that you need people to improve, but the one thing.
Speaker 2It would always be the one thing that you could just do differently, because people can't focus on 10 different things. You know, if you focus on the really the most important thing, you know, often you know everything else starts to get better. And I think the other thing you know that I try to do, and he sort of did as well, was focus on people's strengths. How do you make your strengths even better Once you get to a certain stage in your career? Trying to continually, continuously work on your weaknesses is probably not the most efficient use of time. You know, get someone else to do those things. Often, you know, do the things where you're already pretty good and how do you just get even better.
Speaker 1So I think you know those are some of the things that I try to do with my own team now, but I definitely feel like he did those things for me that is some great learnings, because I think the you know the sandwich that often people talk about when it comes to feedback, and you know I'm already thinking of great to do another podcast where talking about feedback, because some of the best leaders that I've met have this way of delivering feedback but still managing to maintain the buy-in and the engagement, and it is really is an art. It is an art. Um, I have to say they're like that may even re-quote that I want people to live up to their greatness. Um, it's uh, I mean, it does sound a bit also.
Speaker 1It sounds maybe a bit cheesy, but also it is like it makes me smile when I hear that there's something about really, and also this whole feedback in the moment piece, because it's so easy, isn't it, to store things up because we don't want to. We're human, we're people. We don't want to give those pieces because we feel like we're hurting the other person, but actually storing them up is the more cruel thing to do, in a way. Actually, the almost these micro snackable, snackable feedback I don't know where that came from, but you know, you know what I mean. That's, um, really great. I think as well. It's all in the framing. You know, it's what they can do, even better and how, how.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that is also very all in the framing. You know, it's what they can do even better and how, how. Yeah, I think that is also very important about. It would have just been even better if you had done this, or maybe consider this next time. I think that that really makes a difference. Um, yeah, and I do find the in the moment feedback is, honestly, that's best received, I find, from people, and people often value the fact that you've taken the time to help them be even more successful next time, because that's what it really is all about is how can you make them even more successful than they were the time before, and I think if people genuinely believe it comes from that place, it helps enormously.
Speaker 1And on that note, which is a perfect segue into any favourite heroes, sheroes, books, quotes, podcasts other than this one, obviously, of course, this one, um, but no, I mean, I I listen to loads of podcasts.
Speaker 2I read quite a lot of books, um, I, as I said, I'm constantly curious about everything. The one that I really love and I listened to I actually started listening to. I think it was in lockdown when, when we couldn't really do much, I used to go on long walks and listen to podcasts, um, but the I don't know if you've heard of the feel better live more podcast by um Dr Rangan Chatterjee, but, but basically he's, he was a doctor and he is changing the way the UK medical system looks at health, from very narrow kind of specialisms to looking at the whole person and you know their whole life in more integrated way, and he's really trying to influence the whole medical system, and I mean it very much applies to my husband's health issues. So I, from that perspective, I find it very interesting, but I also think it really resonates for me from all different contexts, particularly at work.
Speaker 2I mean looking beyond the obvious and specific areas of expertise and instead of looking at the whole kind of system that we need to change. It's something that I reflect on quite a lot in my own work, because we know that the whole system will decide whether something is embedded or it isn't, and so you have to think about just more beyond the the very specific, very siloed pieces of the puzzle. You need to put the whole thing together, and I think he does that so well, so that's one that I do really love. Nothing to do with HR.
Speaker 1I will have to give it a listen. It sounds fascinating, um, and it's actually it's been a really lovely theme in a way, throughout this entire podcast I'm going to call it the beach ball and something I keep talking about, like I don't know where it's even come from is this whole looking at the entire beach ball, because it's easy to look at.
Speaker 1You know certain little parts of this but, it's so holistic and everything that you've spoken about and everything that you embody and it is.
Speaker 1You know, it's an incredible you know skill of kind of art and science being able to do a role like this but then also to maintain that humility and and to be able to share.
Speaker 1You know what have been, you know, at times, sometimes challenging life experiences, different life experiences, being able to learn from all of those things and then also, equally, not only sending the lift back down to others to help them improve and be their very best self on their path to greatness, but then also how diversity does go so much further than just what is on the surface, and that is such an important point that I think, even to this day, knowing a lot more about what diversity, people, leadership etc is is. You know the intersectionality of all those things. You know we've talked about upward social mobility. You know mental health, the understanding of individual nuances, cross cultural learnings and competencies and some of those key pivotal moments where allyship has played a big role. And then you know, equally I really love that piece around feedback as well Completely unplanned, but one where actually you know those are. You know you can see almost how the weavings of learnings from each step have gone up and, I think, also something that is super beneficial to all leaders who are listening into the podcast.
Speaker 1Yeah, oh so that was my summary. Any final, any final quotes? Nicholas and I said I was like, yeah, it'll be 20-30 minutes and here we are a lot later and we can't cut any of this podcast either, so it's just going to have to be a long one because it'd be super enjoyable. But any final parting quotes before we summarize.
Speaker 2I mean I often say this sort of I think I don't know whether I've got the words right, but Dalai Lama quote that goes something along the lines of you know, if you think you're too small to make a difference, tell that to the person trapped in a tent with a mosquito. I don't know if that's exact sort of phraseology, but I think that kind of concept is very, very interesting. And you know, everyone has the possibility, I think, to make meaningful change happen and you know how we show up every day really matters, and I think companies have an obligation to make the workplace a healthy, inclusive, positive environment. And you know everyone can play a role to ensure that belonging, diversity, equity and inclusion is at the forefront. So I think if we create the conditions, you know, to deliver this at Hiscox and you know, we can achieve sort of that change for this organisation. You know we can really impact and influence a lot of people's lives and for me that's really, really important and I think we can all do our bit there.
Speaker 1Um, so that's probably my my final reflection wonderful reflection, and one that's very so on brand as well. Um, little things can make huge differences, people. Thank you so much. It's just been. It has been a joy. I found myself getting so close to the computer screen. Actually, even though most people will be listening to this, I kind of always bumping into the camera. So, thank you. Thank you very much. This is the Diverse, inclusive Leaders podcast. My name is Leila McKenzie-Dallas, founder and CEO of Dark Global. You've been listening to the wonderful Nicola Grant, chief People Officer at Hiscox. If you have been affected by any of the subjects in today's show, please make sure you reach out. Do not be a stranger. All of the show notes as well will be in the podcast. If there's anything you missed and you want to catch up, you can find us on your favourite podcast app, apple, spotify or whichever one you listen to, or visit us directly at wwwdarglobalorg. Look forward to seeing you again soon.