Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Transforming Lives: Joseph Mullings on Social Impact, Food Sustainability, and Diversity
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What does it take to transform lives through social impact and food sustainability? Join us as we engage in a heartfelt conversation with Joseph Mullings, Director of Programs for Social Impact and Food Sustainability for North America at ISS. From his humble beginnings in a preacher's household in the UK to his impactful endeavors in Canada, Joseph's journey is a testament to the power of community service and resilience. Hear how his father's relentless dedication to helping others shaped Joseph and his siblings, and the stark educational challenges they faced due to institutional racism.
Discover the profound benefits of investing in employee development, particularly through language programs for frontline workers. Joseph shares compelling examples of initiatives like the English language program for janitorial and reception staff, revealing how these investments lead to higher employee retention, service consistency, and reduced recruitment costs. Learn how these strategic investments not only drive business performance but also foster cross-generational loyalty and community ties, while promoting supply chain diversity and inclusive hiring practices.
Lastly, we explore the critical role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) in advancing diversity and inclusion within a global organization. Joseph discusses the unique challenges of navigating privilege and responsibility as a British professional in an American company. We examine how ERGs serve as 'critical friends' to leadership, driving accountability and representation, especially in leadership roles. Reflect on the cyclical nature of corporate interest in D&I, and be inspired by iconic role models like John Lewis, whose perseverance continues to light the path for future generations. This episode promises to be an enriching experience filled with insights on justice, leadership, and the true essence of social impact.
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Inspiring Story of Social Impact Leader
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the Diverse and Inclusive Leaders podcast . This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire , educate and motivate others to make the world a better place . Today , I am delighted to be joined by Joseph Mullins . Joseph is the Director of Programs for Social Impact and Food Sustain sustainability for North America at ISS . In addition to the day job , he also leads globally as the chair for culture , race and ethnicity when it comes to the group's employee resource groups . He's had a wealth of experience a Brit living in Canada , multiculturally , working for a host of different organisations and I'm thrilled that he's going to be sharing a little with us today about his personal journey and why the work he does is so meaningful and impactful to society at large . Welcome to the show , joseph .
Speaker 2Thanks for having me Leila Appreciate it .
Speaker 1Thanks for having me . Layla appreciate it . Thanks so much for being here , and I followed you for a number of years . I know we've been meaning to do this podcast for quite some time and you you're such a person that puts people first . I'd love you to , for our listeners who don't know you as well as I do , to give us a whistlestop tour as to how you came to be where you are today and how you ended up being a Brit over in Canada working for ISF .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's a long story . We'll try and give you the brief version of it .
Speaker 1But I guess essentially I was raised in a preacher's household .
Speaker 2My dad is a long-standing preacher who was previously a politician , I guess in his aspirations was working with what was known as the Marcus Garvey movement back in the day , which had a big push to try and get Jamaicans in the UK or Jamaicans or Africans in the diaspora back to Africa . So he was a big believer that the only way we could actually get by would be to get back to Africa and , being the preacher that he is now , he actually had a turning point in his life where he realized for himself he needed to focus more on the hearts and minds of his community and serving that community to survive and to thrive right where they are .
Speaker 2So I guess that's a huge huge , huge part for me because he's very much walk the walk , talk the talk . He was the guy that would bring in homeless people into our house , you know , bring people around for dinner . And I remember one time he was just about to travel , I think , to the cameroons on some mission and he brought this pregnant canadian girl to our house and said to my mother hey , you have to take her in till I get back right . So we kind of grown with this , um , this person who's always been giving , always serving others , and it's it's just had an imprint on on our psyche all the way through life . So most of my siblings also do something helping people . So we attribute that to our father . And so , um , having gone into education , you know , my first uh siblings coming into the UK or being born into the UK would have faced a very different education system lots of institutional racism racism and subtleties within the system .
Speaker 2At the time , we're talking about 70s , whereas I come into school in the 80s . I kind of in high school , college under the Blair years , which kind of felt like it was filled with optimism around what was possible and so out of seven kids I'm the first one to go to university . Um , and I say it's , and I'm number six .
Speaker 2So it wasn't because I was the smartest one , but I did feel like the conditions had really changed quite a bit . Um , my elder sister wasn't allowed to sit her GCSE maths because she was told she wasn't good enough . And they're from the era where you know you push young black boys and girls into nursing and into sports , and so they lived through that and I was kind of privileged to come at a time where it felt like the system was very encouraging to push us forward in education . So I first , first major thing for me is I've had an education at a level that my siblings didn't have , my parents didn't have , but they made a lot of sacrifices for me to have those opportunities and so that's just , I think , the main foundation , which is I got a unique education , had a unique father , and then the world of work just really is what it is .
Speaker 2For anyone who's worked for long enough , you know it's never really linear . You end up doing things you didn't think you would have ended up doing , and so my work here with with ISS , actually started in the UK . I was working as a part of their sales team and I was pushing them to partner with me for some social impact work . I think called a social impact now , but we were trying to have an impact in our local community nearest to our local church in the . This is northwest 10 , harlesden Wembley . If you know that area , there was a time growing up where it was known as the murder capital of the UK , right . So some really serious , serious issues . But I got approached as part of the local community to see what we could do to help some of the young guys there who were very enterprising on the streets . You know they knew how to count , subtract , divide , multiply , but not necessarily . You know doing business in a legit legal way and so they approached us and said hey , we've won a contract to do some services here .
Speaker 2What ideas would you bring to the table ? And they'd already come with a music studio idea saying look these guys are so heavily into music If we don't do a music project no one's going to tell .
Speaker 2So I says okay , why don't we do a business masterclass attached to that , where if they want studio time they have to come to my business masterclass ? And all I did was I reached out to a couple of folks in the city who were from the black community , big in business , knew how to run enterprises , finance marketing , and they came down and delivered these workshops with these guys . I asked ISS at the time , could we use your boardroom ? And our CEO at the time , richard Sykes he was so into young people he's like why don't you take our corporate box at Wembley Stadium ? I was like I'll take them both .
Speaker 2And so we had the penultimate session in the boardroom in Canary Wharf . These guys , coming out from Harlesden never been to Canary Wharf in all their life . They dressed up really smart , it was excellent . And then , crucially , the final session . We did like a dragon's den , a shark tank for those in the US , and we did that from Wembley Stadium . And you know they've been looking at that stadium their whole life , walking past it and never been in . They got into a corporate box . Iss fully catered for them and that kind of got me into being known as the guy who does social impact stuff . So at the time I was just in sales and that's that reputation went before me when I moved to the US . That was really because of my wife wanting to come back home to Canada . She's Canadian and she did 14 years in the UK with me . And I asked my boss you know , in an appraisal situation they always say would you like to work anywhere else in the world ?
Speaker 1And we took it as a red herring question .
Speaker 2But I said for a joke , my wife would love it if you can get me a job in Canada . And he said you should ask so and so . And I called him up and he's like what'd you do ? I told him he says we need you , like yesterday , and so I think I was probably the first person in our company to move globally at my level . Um , so I moved myself , but the company found a job for me and it's , it's been great . And then , finally , when I got here , I was like you guys don't do much CSR .
Speaker 2Um , maybe I can help you with that . And I kind of knocked that door long enough to when the company came around . It was like I think Joseph's been talking to us about this . Why don't we see what he would do ?
Speaker 1And that's pretty much how .
Speaker 2I got into the social impact D&I space and just kind of tried to plug holes and build things wherever the companies wanted me and then , thankfully , they've trusted me with doing new things and trying to take them to the next level . So , as I said , maybe that wasn't the short version , but that's kind of the story of how I got where I am today .
Speaker 1Joseph , I could listen to you tell that story in greater chapter and verse quite happily for the rest of the day . That is such a brilliant , brilliant story of upward social mobility , why it is so important for us to inspire and educate and motivate the youth , and particularly the youth from certain communities the black community , the ethnic communities , certain areas of London and you know lots of big cities as well because talent is everywhere and it's something we hear a lot . Talent is everywhere . Opportunity is not .
Speaker 1That story encompasses so many different aspects of that and , additionally , the fact that corporate organizations really can do their bit to make a difference to society and economically support what is happening from an impact and economic standpoint . You are living , breathing , sleeping proof of that and , oh my goodness , amazing . One of seven first to go to university . It just shows you , doesn't ? It just shows you that you don't need to have gone to a certain university with a certain network and so on and so forth . But that experience doesn't happen for all , and so how can we continue , as you are doing today in the social impact role and chairing the ERG globally , to continue keeping momentum on , because it is a pretty at times volatile world when it comes to what's in the press and the media and world events and things like this yeah , I think you know diversity we talk about , sometimes underrated and maybe not always fully explained , is that diversity of thought .
Speaker 2And I just I have this strong belief about good people in important positions . I keep coming back to this in a lot of the work I do . I just think , okay , what kind of a person are you , what kind of people do you have at the table helping to make those decisions ? Because one of the things that helped in the UK was not that my company threw a ton of money at the project . You know , sometimes literally opening up a corporate space and allowing young people to see something that they wouldn't have had the privilege to see before can be just as impactful as plowing tons of money into a community to get something done . So I think sometimes the solutions are simpler than we think and if we can get multiple people involved in making small changes or opening small doors , it can create really , really huge opportunities . Those young guys went on to register their own record label . They ended up being on the same record label producing for , I think , well , Adele is on the same contract if you know , obviously everybody knows Adele .
Speaker 2But they've got Adele is on the same contract .
Speaker 2If you know , obviously everybody knows Adele but they've got artists who work on the same label that they're doing backup tracks for and laying down rhythm tracks , and so you know , every time those songs are played , they're now getting some residuals . And so for a lot of those guys , they were doing this on the side , putting it on YouTube , not connected to anything that would pay them royalties , and so you know , there you have it as an example of , okay , just create some opportunities for people to do things . But I think it's important who we employ in positions that are for managing people , and I think you know , when we start to have people in the right positions , we will start seeing opportunities like we haven't seen before . That's my story , you know , raising my hand , making a suggestion hey , do you think we could do this ?
Speaker 1this podcast . I have real young , cool , up-and-coming guys in a corporate box remembering that moment , probably for the rest of their lives actually and it's those kind of moments that matter , that , as you say , they don't necessarily cost a huge amount of money . But I don't believe needs the whole concept and notion of doing business for good separate thing from making profit , because the whole concept and notion of doing business for good and being profitable because of that is demonstrated in this example . Um , but creative ways , to your point , for organisations to help support Money does , to an extent , talk and without resources , it's also very hard to get things done that we need to get done and you know I'm not sure about yourself , joseph , but we're hearing a lot of this you know what's the return on investment , it's a challenging economic climate , etc .
Investing in People for Longevity
Speaker 1You know what's the return on investment , is it challenging economic climate , etc . And you know often what we're saying is well , what's the impact of not investing ? So what's the impact of inaction ? The IOI versus the ROI ? And I'd love to hear your take on this , because you have really been someone that has pioneered , not just educating , inspiring thoughts and minds , but also data and research as well . Yeah , there's two examples come to mind .
Speaker 2maybe I'll start with the program that we initiated in the us here around building a language program english language program for a lot of our frontline workers coming in from across the border .
Speaker 2The fact of the matter is a company like us who run facilities , a lot of the people that get the work done for us . They're going to be janitors , they may be front of house , reception people , maybe cooks in the kitchen , and so the entry level to those jobs is really low , which is great in that it gives people opportunities to get their foot on the ladder . But then , once you get in the door , how do you keep those people ? And then , in an industry where you know somebody might leave you for 10 cents more an hour to the guy working across the street , how do you maintain and retain your people ? How do you make your business sticky ? You've got to invest in the people , and so one of the that program that we specifically did we worked with a non-profit organization who already had some curriculum around cleaning services , but they didn't have any curriculum specifically for the , the fm space .
Speaker 2So we took about a year to build that curriculum with them and then started to roll that out in 2023 as pilots , and what we're seeing is what we knew would happen . Right , we ended up retaining those people for longer . That equals a more consistent service to our clients , because we're not chopping and changing the personnel every every day and we're not spending all the same that we'd have to on re-recruiting people for those positions and so um . The return is quite . You know , it's not only for the .
Speaker 2Moment but that also becomes a cross-generational benefit because you've got someone who's come to us from Mexico and we've invested English language in them . They love us , they're telling the family about us and whoever's coming next are going to be loyal to us because you've actually made an investment in their family and I think that comes from a good place in terms of just believing and doing good for people . If I'm just thinking about someone who's crossed the border for a better life , I mean I can sympathize with that a little bit , because my parents , as immigrants from Jamaica , similarly coming for a better life , having a sticky period you know for a good 20 years whether it was battling , just being the other in a new place feel like they belong by investing in them is going to benefit our company , like for the rest of their lives and and the rest of our business , with engagement with them and their families .
Speaker 2And I think we've got to think cross-generational when it comes to business like ours , you've got to think about helping an individual helps that family , but it also then helps our community and we've seen it like if you are a company that takes care of people , the whole community begins to find out about it , because , as we all know , as immigrants coming in , our networks are really tight . We talk to each other , we tell people where not to go , we tell people where to go , and so I think not investing in diversity is hugely short sighted , and that's just sort of one example of how can we actually make their life better in a way that then actually makes our business better , and usually I don't . I don't think you can ever go wrong by investing in your people . It's always going to have a better return for you and your business . And so we have some clients who who get it .
Speaker 2You know the most progressive clients will say we will pay for this program and we say back to them you will do this training on the clock . We're not going to make you do this outside of your working hours . You come to work and this portion of your day will be learning English . That's a real investment and that makes a big difference . Some of the clients who are not as progressive , they look at it and think , ok , so who's going to pay for this ? And it's like you know , know , get a clue right , this is good for everybody .
Speaker 1Um , in in this circle there , what I'm taking from what you're saying , um , all incredibly valuable stuff is this is an ecosystem . Ultimately , um , if we start say with you know the organizations and the fact that the organization , their brand , what they do through investing in their people and being more intentional as well about who they're hiring into leadership roles , like yourself again , you know I'm trying not to sound too biased here , but you are an absolute ideal individual to be in this role , because not only do you mean a lot to your community , specifically the black community and many other ethnic minorities who look to you and think , hey , do you know what Joseph is in that role ? He's come from a similar background . I see myself , I'd like to see myself in that role , that role , but equally , from the client perspective , we are seeing a huge uplift and this has been happening over the last you know , 10 , 20 years , you know number of decades is the investment in supply chain diversity and how we're being intentional about the money that we spend .
Speaker 1Even on a smaller level . You know , when I'm at the supermarket , I'm thinking about which brands might be women owned , which might be minority organizations . Even next week at book launch , we have minority suppliers , female owned macaroon brands , miss Macaroon , we have Jamaican Kitchen serving with food , and you know , these kind of things make a difference which , to your point , especially within the facilities world and a world in which it's amazing because there's lots of roles where there's an opportunity for people to get an opportunity in at the grassroots level , but equally , these communities speak , they are tight Belonging , as you've mentioned . It almost weaves throughout every single one of these aspects , because when we feel that we belong , that feeling transcends within the immediate community that we exist in friends , family and and and
Driving Diversity and Inclusion Initiatives
Speaker 1and . So doing good equals better business .
Speaker 2Absolutely , absolutely .
Speaker 1And it takes some bravery .
Speaker 2So I think the other example I'll quickly lean into is the work I'm doing with ERG .
Speaker 2We're a Danish headquartered company and I mean that has its benefits but also some challenges , right , diverse place in the world , right , but we have businesses in the US , we have business in the UK , so we've got more mature areas in terms of having dealt with immigration and dealt with diversity for many more years , and so , in some ways , again , it's it's important that we recruit intelligently and thank God for Margot , who's our global director but it's like it's important that we recruit intelligently to those positions not only people who have , as you were suggesting , some lived experience , but is also brave enough to take the company on what might be a difficult journey and answering difficult questions , and so you know I know from working in this company since 2015 we employ great people . Like I love the people at this company , and I've got so many stories I could tell about people of all ethnicities anywhere I've been in the world , um , but the fact is , though , is that good people don't necessarily make your organization successful . At dni , you know good people have to build good systems , and so we can have good experiences of people every day , but if we don't challenge systems to be better , then , overall , nothing changes on the macro scale for minority communities , perhaps looking for a way in and a way up , and so part of my work is really trying to give our organization a global perspective of how we could be presenting diversity , because we're diverse by the fact that we are in so many countries . In India it's probably one of our biggest operations . We have an Indian CEO and it's a great , great story , and they're coming up with some of the best programs that we've delivered as a business anywhere in the world . So India's teaching us some things about diversity , and I think that's a factor of them being able to lead themselves as well as a country . So I think , putting people in the right positions to provoke really good policies .
Speaker 2One of the things we did two years ago was to get the CEO to say to the rest of the business we could do better with representation , and so we came up with three specific directives that we would seek to pursue to allow us to achieve greater diversity in our leadership functions across the globe , and right now we're working on the KPIs attached to that , and that's part of the global work of the ERG .
Speaker 2It's not HR-led , it's ERG-led , and I'm glad to be a part of a company that's willing to accept that challenge . You know they've asked us to look at the business , to talk to our people and come back and tell us what you think could be better , and so so far it's been a really good response . We always want things to move fast . Like you know , get it done yesterday , but it was . It was a landmark moment for the CEO to to sign off that document and to say you know what we could do better . We could be a bit more intentional about having representation in our leadership functions , and we're seeing steps being taken now . So this is another part of the work we do , which is being a critical friend to our organizations and giving the hard messages even you know behind the scenes .
Speaker 2We can take the gloves off a bit more and say hey guys you know , we know we can do better and we've got leaders who are very responsive in those environments .
Speaker 1And I appreciate that the critical friend role is one that is uncomfortable at times , yet it is of paramount importance because having , yes , men , women , people around leadership only leads to one place .
Speaker 1And given we're seeing such a fast-paced , moving world geopolitical kind of craziness I think 70 elections it is that are going along around the globe at the moment , which is just the globe at the moment , which is just unbelievable all of these things mean that leaders do need to be more accountable and need to have critical friends who are there holding the mirror up , or holding the mirror up for the best reasons , for the reasons that are good of the business and good of the individuals within , to ensure engagement is driven both internally and externally .
Speaker 1And engagement is such a huge piece , um , you know , especially given kind of everything that's happening with ai , which you know some are delighted about , you know , some , I think , secretly fearful of at times .
Speaker 1I mean , you know , you can understand why , but the thing that cannot be emulated is , you know , the human aspects and I know that that creation of engagement , especially through employee resource groups , who don't necessarily form part of HR , as critical friends and ecosystems almost report back up into the wider corporate and into the CEO are absolutely invaluable , because there really is not any other mechanism other than employee resource group or business resource group network , whatever individuals call them , to actually have that level of pulse on different types of communities . Um , hence you know , great , that you are doing the work to drive that forward , because you know , you know as well as I do , this is a role that's often , you know , it's the side of the desk piece . It's something that is done because individuals are passionate personally or have an affiliation with various employee resource groups and you kind of think to yourself well , if you bottled that energy and that engagement , that motivation , which often is not remunerated , then think about what that would equal in terms of business productivity . Absolutely , I think dni has the I don't know .
Speaker 2we kind of have these peaks and troughs right , these waves of interest in . This is the theme for the moment and I think you know I resent it and I love it at the same time . Right in those moments we have got to push really hard and get as much done as we can do , knowing , knowing that somewhere , corporately , the flavor of the month is going to change and we're going to have to go for it now , on a different front , to fight for rights for people of a different category , and so it is unfortunately the nature of the beast and you alluded to it earlier on that it would be great to see more remuneration for this type of work . I think the best companies do the best companies invest in ERGs . They invest in diverse leadership and at the best , you know , we give ERGs the role of being that critical friend and not just what I call the celebration committee , which is , you know , let's just recognize this day and I said to our ERGs when I was the head of
Speaker 2diversity I think it was just last year . There's always a philosophy . There's two things we're here to do here . Yes , we're going to celebrate , we're going to have awareness days and awareness moments , but we are going to challenge the business to improve and we're going to be very specific about what we want the business to do . And you know , I think , crucially where I am right now , I have to call out Celia Liu . She is an executive sponsor that pushes us and I think that makes a huge difference too . If you've got executive sponsorship who understand the work , who want measurable things and that's the kind of leader she is like . You know , you want to be able to measure what we're doing , want to be able to say we moved the needle from here to there , that's fantastic . But when you don't have that , then we've got to use all the passion we have and I know that I . I do this 100 like passion , like no one has to push me , like that that document we made for the ceo I got to draft 12 .
Speaker 2We worked really hard outside of the day job back and forth . We've pushed PNC to even create terms of reference with the ERG so we can be recognised as a critical friend at the table , that we will be consulted on certain things that impact cultural , race , ethnicity . So we're not coming as an afterthought to check on the work you've done , but make us a part of the policy creation , make us a part of your data analytics , and so we don't have to tell you by the way , you could do a report to track this after the fact . Let's get us at the table at the beginning and make sure that you've heard our voices , and so I think those things are really crucial and you only you know you have to accept . I think you're going to do a lot of this work on passion . But what a privilege , right ? What a privilege to be able to do this work , even if it is just on the fumes of my passion . I think one of the greatest achievements for me was actually getting that document signed .
Speaker 2Then being invited to write the speech for the CEO globally to bring to the company what this means . So I think the biggest achievement was done in my voluntary work here at ISS speech for the CEO globally to bring to the company what this means . So I think the biggest achievement was done in my voluntary work here at ISS and so that comes again , I think , from my father , kind of doing good for goodness sake and understanding that the reward for that it might not be monetary now but it might be more in legacy and the amount of people who are able to help .
Speaker 1I'm going to loop back to something that you started to say around this juxtaposition between resent and love , because that is exactly what it is and for those who are listening in , who are involved in diversity , inclusion , belonging , equity , culture in any which form , whether it be a full-time role , whether it be an HR function , whether it be leading or being part of an employee resource group , that is , you know exactly what communities and people are living and breathing and sleeping pretty much every day , and so , um , you know there is a huge amount of love , but there is also the the emotional roller coaster of , at times , resenting this work , just to call it out , because you know how long can people live and breathe on fumes . It's kind of like saying , look , let's , you know , let's all push this car along . You know pushing it all together because we want to , we want to see . You know , start to . You know , drive down the track , but it needs petrol , it needs investment , it needs things , um , within it to actually make it sustainable , because you can't have people who are just pushing it forever . You know everyone has to have a break at times , and it is . You know it is emotionally exhausting , you know it really is , and so , you know , when you were talking there about kind of , you know you said the afterthought and I think that's a , that's a really powerful word because you know , for leaders and CEOs listening and thinking , you know afterthought , you know , don't get me wrong everyone does mean well and I think you have to look at situations with positive intent , because you start to go a bit crazy . Otherwise , you know we have to , but it is the times when organizations plummet or there's something that happens with regards to employer brand or , you know , perhaps it's a legal case . We've seen quite a lot of high profile ones of those happen without mentioning anything at all and then suddenly it becomes oh , my goodness , we need all of our critical friends , let's ask everyone .
Speaker 1And so , actually , the maintenance piece , ie , as you said , joseph , getting us around the table to start with , getting us involved in the conversation , really investing in this . You know all the money , the millions of billions that big business spend actually , um , you know the money , the investment , the time that goes into this minimal , for you know what are huge potential , maximum outcomes and also preventative saving as well , because no one wants to end up in a situation where the employer brand is being tarnished because all of the years that it takes then to rectify that , it can take a very long time . Um , anyway , I'm trying to get off my soapbox now , joseph , because you really got me going . I was just like , oh , this is great , I could talk forever with you and really spa um about this , but I gotta ask , I gotta ask the question , um , oh , and shout out as well to Celia Lou um , we , we did a piece that , um well , celia came as my guest actually to number 10 and we went to the Lunar New Year celebration , which was fantastic , and having a CFO in the conversation as an advocate , I think is super powerful because investment intent and all those kind of good things .
Speaker 1But I want to move as quickly into the lightning round and also to ask about your privileges as a black man in the US , or what you call the Idris effect . I'm a huge Idris fan . I'm sure there are many other fans like oh , my goodness , I love Idris . Tell us about this . And then I'm going to ask you a couple of lightning round questions yeah , so the Idris Elba effect is .
Speaker 2it's actually and I laugh about it , but it's difficult to to talk about because I didn't recognize the privileges of a black man with an English accent . In the US , if you think about it , there's probably hundreds of African-American actors who could play an African-American , muscly and good-looking , but Idris gets the role for some reason .
Navigating Privileges in Diversity & Inclusion
Speaker 2When I look at my position in an American company , I'm trying to get my company to understand . When I look at my position in an american company , I , you know , I'm trying to get my company to understand . Don't look at me as the answer for an african-american . Like , until you have an african-american in my position , you don't have one .
Speaker 2You know , I'm an english , I'm a british guy and and I didn't realize it at first , but you know , you start talking and people would lead to you as if you're saying something really profound and I'm like , okay , wasn't that deep what's going on ? Um , they like the accent and so that's a privilege for me and I had to kind of accept that . Um , because this is a diversity podcast , let's just be real about it . Okay , I am , I'm light-skinned , so colorism is a thing and I'm small . You maybe can't tell it because I've zoomed in so I might look a bit bigger here , more interesting , but like I'm not intimidating Physically , the tone of my skin is not the kind that people evoke you know ideas of I'm in danger .
Speaker 2I'm not necessarily the kind of guy that you grab your purse with if we're in an elevator together . Those are privileges Darker skinned , bigger build and African American . They have a worse experience in the US than me , and so I don't take that lightly . So , doing social impact work in D&I , I am constantly asking myself how can I use my privileges to impact and help people that look like me or who come from my background , um , or who are minoritized or racialized , because I realize that those are my privileges in this market and I don't know that my ascent within this business would have been the same in another market back in the UK . Maybe , maybe not , but I can see over here . Those are distinct privileges for me , and so I think we should all be aware of our privileges , difficult though they may be to stare in the face , let's be honest about them .
Speaker 2I think when you do know what they are , you can look at them not just negatively but with a sense of OK , I have a responsibility because this door's been opened for me . How many other people can I open the door for and bring awareness to ? So I bring that to this table , not having mentioned that I don't think publicly anywhere else in detail , because I always just say it's the accent thing , but it's that trifecta of how I look , the tone of my skin , the sound of my voice . It has an impact . So those are my privileges .
Speaker 1it has an impact . So that's , those are my privileges . Thank you so much for sharing that and also the fact that it's the first time you shared it . I feel privileged and that is what I love about the conversations on this podcast is . Diversity means so many different things to different people , and if we don't talk candidly about this , how do we ever learn ? But equally , when we hear things , when we speak to people and hear their different stories , there's always things that resonate , and as you were saying that , I was thinking , oh my goodness , you know , not the same , but different similarities Chinese female with a British accent .
Speaker 1I married an American to . I know you're in Canada , a Brit , you married a Canadian , um , but it is , you know , you almost don't think of it and it's something that makes you chuckle when you're kind of there and people say , oh my god , you know , I love the accent and things like that , but it does afford you the capability to almost be perceived in a slightly different way , and that perception is privilege in many circumstances , and so having the opportunity to be seen and to be heard within , often , business communities , it makes a difference and so it is a great thing , but equally it would caveat it with there is , there's almost a double bind or a triple quadruple bind , and the the feeling of responsibility that then weighs on the shoulders to try and make everything good for those who are coming future generations who are coming into the workplace , and things like this . It feels a heavier load to carry . Um , which leaves me with the thought , and the undercurrent of the entire podcast is we must continue to fly the flag , to invest , to have the conversations , to inspire , to educate , to motivate exactly as you do , joseph , for future generations of leaders , because that is what is good for business . Absolutely .
Speaker 1Well , I'm conscious of time . I said I was going to ask lightning round questions . I'm breaking my own rules and so I'm going to ask you one because I've just realized that we've gone quite over on time . So , um , 30 seconds , I'm going to mute myself so I can't chip in and be like oh my goodness , joseph , I agree , right , 30 seconds for each one of these . Let's get through them . Boom , boom , boom . Hardest question first what's the definition ?
Speaker 2of success for you being able to go to bed at night knowing I've made decisions that weren't selfish .
Speaker 1Awesome , selfish Awesome . How about role models , or real models , as we often like to call them at Dial ?
Speaker 2Who's inspired you the most throughout your career or life ? I mentioned my dad already , but I'm going to go for John Lewis , who worked with Martin Luther King . His book , really , yeah it .
Speaker 1Let me know that you might have to play the long game on getting justice .
Speaker 2You know , all the guys that want it now are dead , and so how do you work with legislation , how do you work with politics , to actually get an outcome ? Quick example he waited a motion that took 100 years , which he saw through under his leadership , and it was to get a museum on the wall to recognize the contribution of African Americans in the First World War . And Congress just kept knocking it back , knocking it back , and they brought it back every single year . When he came into office , he took it under his responsibility to keep asking the question . The day they got it through it was a hundred years later .
Speaker 1So he's affected my sense of patience . It's a beautiful answer . A beautiful answer and hard , because many of us who do this have a big sense of impatience . So good example and reminder for many . And final question if you could go back in time and talk to the most much younger joseph back in london that kind of time , perhaps is there anything that you would say to your younger self or someone who is in a similar community at that time as you ?
Speaker 2yeah , I think I would . I would encourage me to embrace everything I love doing um , because I think if you can end up doing something you love , that's kind of the dream position to be in . So yeah , one , you know , helping people is one of those things . But like I'm finally now um writing something I wanted to do . I feel I am a writer intrinsically and um so I think that's right now .
Speaker 2LinkedIn is is now a space that I'm taking out revenge on that , but also it's it's it's having , it's getting traction and it's having a you know a good , getting good impact and good responses , and so I'm encouraged that I probably should have always just pressed into that , because it's what I love doing , and so , yeah , just don't give up on doing the things you love one day somebody will the queue to purchase it and I , I believe the premise which is a really lovely way to end the podcast actually is not giving up on the things that you love , not saying no .
Speaker 1I can't saying yes to what matters because , ultimately , when you have , when you have the willingness and the desire and , frankly , joseph , the resilience to keep going when times are tough , you can make what you want to happen happen , albeit there's going to be plenty of emotional roller coasters , ups and downs , to be able to get there . Something which really has resonated with me throughout this podcast and speaking to you is the fact that you know resilience and tenacity and doing this work is something that needs such a level of . It's almost like bounce ability being able to bounce back from the hardships , being able to pivot , being able to bounce back from the hardships , being able to pivot , being able to be creative . The role of diversity , inclusion , social impact and all of the other kind of great initiatives that you do and others do within organisations I personally believe are far underestimated , actually , by wider organisations . You know boardrooms at large and if you were to put someone who works in a role like this in any other role , I would guarantee that they would excel .
Speaker 1Why ? Because historically , systemically , you talked a lot about the processes and the systems and the things that have held people back . Now you know we don't want to spend all of our time talking in kind of the you know victim triangle part of the Cartman drama triangle , but at the end of the you know victim triangle part of the Cartman drama triangle , but at the end of the day , you put anyone else in a role who has done this kind of work . They will excel .
Speaker 1Why ? Because they have been up against it systemically . They're doing it with often less budget . They are needing to find very creative ways to be able to pivot constantly , and it is that kind of that resilience that is one of the most valuable skill sets that any workplace can have ultimately , and it is why people like you and others will be incredibly successful and do the things that you were born to do . And you know , I just hope anyone who is listening and who's also like I have been inspired by your journey , joseph . You know this is a moment where you say you know what actually might have had X number of no's , but the yes is just around the corner .
Speaker 2Absolutely . Resilience is key , and it's one of those softer skills that are not necessarily tested for in an interview situation how people act under pressure , but pressure , but yeah , this is . This is great . I appreciate the chance to talk with you on this .
Speaker 1thank you so much thank you so much , jose , and you have resilience . It should be tested in interviews , I think super valuable . My name is leila mckenzie dellis . I'm the founder and ceo of dial global . You've been listening to the fantastic Joseph Mullins of ISS . If you've been affected by any of the conversations or feel there's any thoughts that have been provoked from today's show , please make sure you're not a stranger and you do reach out . You can find our podcast on any of your favorite podcast channels Apple , spotify . Please do . If you enjoyed the show , leave us a review . We would be super grateful . And if you want to visit us direct wwwdialglobalorg . Forward slash podcast and we will look forward to seeing you again very soon , but take care in the meantime .