Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Bi-weekly podcast show featuring conversations with inspiring thought leaders of today, unearthing their unique stories of inclusion, belonging, equity, talent, culture and social impact.
Inclusive Leaders & CEO Impact Podcast by DIAL Global
Unveiling Hidden Histories: Machel Bogues on Colonialism, Activism, and Inclusion
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What if your morning cup of tea carries a hidden history of colonialism and exploitation? Join us as we welcome Machel Bogues, the dynamic Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion Manager at the Royal Town Planning Institute. Through his compelling narrative, Machel draws on his powerful family heritage of activism against apartheid and colonialism, shedding light on the profound significance of names and legacy. From his grandparents' valiant efforts in South Africa to his impactful work with Bernie Grant MP, Machel's story underscores the necessity of addressing historical injustices to create a more inclusive society.
In our conversation, we explore the surprising historical roots embedded in everyday British cultural practices. Have you ever considered how tea drinking, chocolate, or dining at Nando's might be tied to the painful histories of the slave trade and colonial expansion? Machel offers a thought-provoking examination of these connections, urging businesses and brands to acknowledge their origins and take social responsibility. By reflecting on these historical contexts, we stress the importance of honest conversations about the past to better understand their impact on our present and future.
We also discuss the dual nature of historical figures like Gandhi and Churchill, highlighting the need to recognize their complexities. Creative expressions such as art, music, and dance are revealed as powerful tools for engaging with history and fostering inclusive dialogues. This episode underscores the vital role cultural spaces play in preserving traditions and envisioning new possibilities. Additionally, Machel shares personal insights on the emotional labor of being a minority in professional settings and the importance of support networks. His narrative serves as a poignant reminder of the power of names, heritage, and continuous dialogue for true diversity and inclusion.
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Hello and welcome to Diverse and Inclusive Leaders. This is the show where I speak with the most inspirational and thought-provoking leaders of today and unearth their unique stories of diversity and inclusion to help inspire, educate and motivate others to make the world a better place. Today, I'm joined by Mashal Bogues. Mashal is the Equality, diversity and Inclusion Manager at the Royal Town Planning Institute. He has an incredible and insightful background. He's a historian, an academic, and he's also used creative expression to really drive his work and focus on the afterlives in many cases, of the transatlantic slave trade. We had a conversation for this podcast about the importance of names and why it's so important to refuel your energy cup, and we're going to be talking much more about that today. Michelle, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2Thanks, hila. It's fantastic to be here. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1Thank you so much for joining and, on the subject of names, for which we talked about and I probably said far too many times before we record this podcast, talk to me about your heritage, sure how you came to be where you are today, including the importance and pertinence behind your beautiful name.
Speaker 2Thank you very much. Um well, I'm sure my parents, who I'm confident will listen, listen to this will be pleased to hear the appreciation for the name, and I have to give them credit. They picked it. But yeah, as I was saying, it was the leader for Limo who took Mozambique to independence from the Portuguese, and that sort of independence was gained in 1975, which is the year I was born. So this is kind of give you a sense of the ways in which some of these issues around freedom, the nature of freedom, what it means to be free, inequality, how that's rooted in my family. And if that doesn't, if that isn't sufficient, my middle name is Patrice, named after Patrice Lumumba. So I have this huge sort of in terms of that sense and sort of the sort of people who have been named after provide this real inspiration for me and I think, you know, for those who believe in nominative determinism, it's an appropriate place for me to be working is in this diversity and inclusion space.
Speaker 2But you know, away from my names, my mother's side of the family is from South Africa. They came to the UK in I can't remember the exact year now, but in the early 60s because both my grandparents were heavily involved in the apartheid struggle. In fact my grandfather was the first person to be banned by the South African government in the town that he grew up in, which was formerly known as Port Elizabeth, now known as Hoa Bekka, and I believe there's a street named after him in Hoa Bekka. And then when they came here, both my grandparents were involved in the sort of exile struggle for freedom in South Africa. So I have a long sort of from a personal, real personal connection and history and heritage in that working around equality, inclusion, equity, and so it's really ingrained in my family history.
Speaker 2So it's no surprise that I guess once I graduated and found myself working for Bernie Grant MP, the first black, one of the first black members of parliament in the late 90s, I think it's no surprise that I sort of gravitated to that space, you know, and then found myself increasingly drawn into this work with you know, with inspiration from a few other people as well, who I, if it's okay, I'll just name check them super quick Lorraine Martin, so I'm sure you know, and a guy called Barry Mussenden and David Bryan, who I met very early on, and they've constantly even though I haven't actually spoken to them that recently they're constantly a constant source of inspiration and helping me to think through what, what am I, what, what I might do next and how I might approach a particular, a particular thing.
Speaker 2So that's a sort of potted history, I guess. You know sort of there's this stuff that's rooted in my personal life and personal connections and family histories, but also then it's sort of very early work experiences, working with an incredible person like Bernie, who was really terrific, and his wife, sharon, and the people I've already mentioned. They just continue to push me down this path. But in some senses, when I look back on it, it's not something I thought I would do. If I was honest, I think I wanted to work in television, but I think I found the work in television, but that yeah, but I think I found the right space in the end.
Speaker 1Michelle, thank you so much for sharing not only the importance of names and what that means, but also for sharing what is a really important yet difficult story. And, if you don't mind me saying, I sometimes think, especially at the moment when we're seeing political and economic turmoil, now is the time, more and more than ever, that we really need to look at recognition of the past and how we can continue to be louder and prouder about the sustainability of the world, because it is often going into a place of significant trauma to be able to reshare that. And so I want to say how much I appreciate you sharing that personally and how proud I know your family will be and the leaders that you've worked with in the past, because I don't think it is easy for many of us to see ourselves in places of success quote unquote without without also recognising and giving testament to those who have trodden the path to get there.
Speaker 2I mean thank you very much, but the question of history and sharing is really important. But I think it's important for a number of reasons. But I think one of the ways and I'm not sure it gets talked about often enough is we have to be able to confront that past as collectively and or individually right. So where we are now, whatever anybody might think of it, is a function of what has happened in the past and we have to be able to confront that past honestly. And I think that's that's a real challenge for people. You know, for all kinds of reasons, not least, that we tend, there's a tendency to use the past in a really particular way, which is to present the best versions of who we think we might want to be. And the past is a really difficult place to do that with, because the past is never that simple or straightforward. So we have to be able to confront that past. We have to be able to have open conversations about how it is that you know you mentioned the afterlives of the slave trade. We have to be able to have open discussions about what it has meant to have had that history for the UK, for the States, for Europe, et cetera, what it has meant to be, to have been through a process of radically reshaping the human geography of the world, which is what slavery and colonialism did. What does that mean? And it's only when we really grapple with that that some of the things that we'll be able to actually be able to look at the present and think, well, what are the things that we can actually and actively want to change and think and then be able to achieve a future which is perhaps more of what we, what we would want.
Speaker 2So, you know, I have a kind of or that is something that you know sort of away from the sort of day job in inverted commas is stuff that I really try to get. How can we of away from the sort of day job in inverted commas is stuff that I really try to get. How can we, how can we prepare people to be able to have those types of difficult discussions with, with the past? Um, then, that's where you know, before I worked at the RTP, I was working in museums and I did some stuff around that.
Speaker 2So how do we, you know? So they be the questions of how we present that past, to try and not to demonize any of the figures from the past to tie them with any particular type of brush, but actually just to say that the historical forces which have brought us to this point are complex and convoluted and link us together in ways which we might prefer. We were not bound to each other by things like the slave trade or colonialism, but we are. So what does that? And actually we have to grapple with that.
Speaker 1I appreciate how you have articulated what is a challenging and uncomfortable conversation for many to have and recognize about the past of the UK. And when you say you know, look, this is not about demonization. Actually this is about recognition and clearly, um, you know, as an academic, as a curator and historian in your work, and also someone who strikes me as very creative, maybe you could talk me and our listeners through a little bit more about how some of these diasporan cultural practices have kind of shaped. Um, blessings, I know that you've done a lot of work in this space and obviously through you know, quite a few almost like inflection points in your personal career to to come to where you are now.
Speaker 2So I'll do my, I'll do my. So the, the, the one which I found hits uh, maybe not hits might not be the right word, but has, but which actually maybe resonates as a better one with people is perfect, because I think you may be drinking a cup of tea, it's to think about tea. So tea is a plant that grows which is not indigenous to England or the UK, but it is now synonymous, the idea of tea drinking is synonymous with the idea of englishness or britishness, but that that is tea that comes from india and china, so it comes from asia. How and is brought here? Uh, it is sweetened and made palatable to the, to the uk's taste buds with by sugar which is made widely available through the transatlantic slave trade. So the quintessential idea of tea and englishness cannot be is bound inexorably with colonialism and transatlantic slave trade and expansion, because it is the sugar from the from the east which, which, uh, it's the sorry, it's the tea from the east which, which is poured into the cup, and it's the sugar from the colonies in in the west indies which makes the tea palatable and also produces the idea of having tea and cakes, and so on and so forth.
Uncovering Historical Roots in English Culture
Speaker 2So all this, very simply, all this sort of idea of having and these are really banal ideas, right? These are things which are in our practice, in our everyday life. You know how many times a day has anybody offered anybody a cup of tea? It's the really traditional thing. If you're, you know, certainly if you're a watcher of EastEnders, if somebody's having trauma, the offer is always a cup. Do you want a cup of tea? So it is synonymous with Englishness, it's one of the quintessential English ideas. But it cannot be separated from that history. It is the history of the slave trade, the history of colonial expansion is what creates the opportunity for tea to become the popular drink that it is today and, over time, to become this synonymous thing with Britishness where you can laugh at the idea of English tea drinking.
Speaker 2So these, so you know, and that's a sort of step that take, you know, it's just kind of, actually it's not. So this is not. These connections and intellect inter interrelationships are not just about the amounts of money that that may or may not have flowed into whoever's pockets and the amount of people. All of that is, of course, very, very important to remember and to think about, but there are ways in which that stuff impacts on or has impacted on just the day-to-day, what we might describe as fairly banal aspects of everyday life, but they are rooted in that of everyday life. But they are rooted in that, you know, eating chocolate is the same. You know how does that arrive here.
Speaker 2Even you know and I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but if you're a Nando's eater, nando's is the product of Portuguese colonial expansion into Mozambique and Brazil and an exchange of, of, of types of, of, of, of, of cooking methods and styles, but also types of chilies traveling across as a result of that colonial expansion. And that you know, and that's what enables something like Nando's to appear. So you know, and that's, that's that's how the, so the modern world, whether it be music, you know, which I didn't even talk about, you know. You talk about the, the way in which music has developed, and the importance of things like blues and what that in the States, and the foundation that gives to rock and roll, et cetera, et cetera, and what that means in terms of what music is produced.
Speaker 2Now, all again not possible without that movement of people, forced forced movement of people, so that these are the, the very sort of well, I'm not sure what the right word here is, but the, the sort of, the sort of small detail of our life, which, the things that we might invest and enjoy, whether that is the music, the tea, whatever cannot be separated from that, from that history, and we that that, that idea that the things that we value about ourselves. Now, as that history is something that we have to confront in a more meaningful way so that we can, so that we can actually come to terms with what that says about who we are, uh, and and and what it's. When we've done that, we can have a better conversation about, well, who do we actually want to be and what does that, what does that mean and how do we get there?
Speaker 1I don't know how interesting that was it's given me, and I know it will have given many who are listening in some serious food and drink for for thought, this is coffee oh sorry, but it's the same theory, yeah but, but this is it.
Speaker 1Is it? You know? As you say, we have everyday enjoyment.
Speaker 1There's things that are rooted into the british culture that we don't all know, and I did not know everything that you had described throughout. What you just have about big brands, the Nandos, portuguese colonialism, fruit to tea from the east, sugar from the colonies, and that is a stark but also important reminder, like you say, that cannot be separated. And so, ultimately, how do we, how do we move this forward into a more meaningful way, into modern day society? It is, and I'm far from being an academic or a historian like you, but it makes me think about how businesses and brands of today can take more social responsibility to be able to not only recognize the past, the culture where you know the fruits of their businesses have come from, but equally for them to now look at leveling the playing field and really seeking to um help level the playing field for future generations of leaders moving forward and, of course, all of those things will look a little bit different depending on what the, you know what the what the business is about and what they're, what they're, what they're doing.
Speaker 2But, yes, I think it should. Hopefully it should just prompt a more uh, uh, what's the phrase? Just a more open, honest, look back, right and and acceptance. I think. I think that's the key. It's not to sound like a sort of therapist speech, but too much. But you need to accept that, that that passes, what is what it is. And, uh, try to move away from this idea that the past is contested. There's a slight bugbear of mine when we say the past is contested. It's not really. It's not really. There's no contest.
Speaker 2The thing actually happened. It's not up for debate whether or not the thing happened or not, what, what? What is up for debate is how important, what's, the significance we want to give to that thing, whatever that, whatever, whatever that thing is, and and the extent to which we want to use that thing to define ourselves. So, if you, if you, so why do we need to be? You know why there's such uproar around?
Speaker 2Uh, when a figure like winston churchill, if someone very historically accurately points out that, uh, he, he was. I don't think it's, you know, I think it's demonstrable that he was uh certainly, uh certainly racist, but when it came to, certainly when it came to India and the subcontinent of, but, and people wrote about him at the time that they couldn't see the difference between his view of Indians and his view and Hitler's view of Jews. That's what people wrote about him whilst he was alive. This can his contemporaries so it, you know, so those things, that is, that is something which is true. It is also true that he was the prime minister of a country during war, and and that was a really and did it and played a significant role, uh, as as that in, in, in fighting that war. Those two things can be true at the same time of the past. The past doesn't. The past allows for that, for two things to be true at once. Even if we don't think in our heads that those things can be synonymous, can be the can be true. You know, and it's not just churchill, just so you know before, to try to help you to avoid any comments of an anger on, on any, on any, on any, any of your platforms, but you can apply the same kind of thinking around Mahatma Gandhi.
Speaker 2So there are things about Gandhi. When statues were being pulled down about Churchill and Rhodes, there were also statues in places like Kenya of Gandhi being pulled down because of his history of being a supporter of apartheid South Africa. During his 20 years as a lawyer in South Africa, he was an advocate for segregation and, maybe more disturbingly, he had a real, towards the end of his life, a tendency to sleep with young teenage girls naked as a test of his own celibacy. So he would have them sleep naked with him to test his own strength of celibacy. So these, yeah, but that also, these, those things are true, but he's still a significant figure in, in, in the in in the movement, in the anti-colonial movement, the, the two things.
Speaker 2The one does not negate the other. There just happen to be two, the things which are true at the same time. We just how you wreck, how we reconcile that is is what will help us to be able to move forward, whether it's about gandhi or churchill or any of these other figures or significant historical moments and I think the recognition of talking about really uncomfortable subjects is important, especially more so right now when we are seeing so much turbulence and divide in what people are thinking and saying, their belief systems.
Speaker 1Like you say, what is? You know, we're not, you know, we're not trying to pretend here the past didn't happen. Actually, the learning, the recognition, um, and then also the utilization in, you know, potential creative expression now can actually have a positive force as well, which, you know, I guess leads me into asking you around um your exhibition, which I think is super interesting. I know you made a comment when we were talking about this and I was like, oh, my goodness, you know I'm, you know, would love um to be more academic. At times I'm quite dyslexic, but, um, I think there is something which is fascinating in creative expression, art diversity and how we can really use the different dynamics to explore and learn more across time. Talk to us a little bit about, sorry no, no, that's fine talk to us a little bit.
Speaker 2No, so I think, so, I think, one of the I mean, I always there'll be people who know me who'll be staggered by the idea that I might be creative, I think, but the, the, but I do think creative, creative expression and creatives, they actually do provide a mechanism or a space where the stuff that's, you know, that reconciliation between the, those, what we might see as contradictions in the past, can be, can be, can be, can be looked at, can be and can be assessed, um, and they do. I think they provide that opportunity and I think that's what gravitate to an extent, that's what gravitates me towards, towards thinking about how do we use those opportunities to think about, uh, the ways in which, um, the ways in which, well, the way, yeah, those, the ways in which those conversations between the past, the present, can happen, and who can be involved in those, can be involved in those conversations. I think that's the other um, really great thing about cultural uh space or creative spaces is that they, they can work, to be in, to include more people than perhaps, uh, writing a book or speaking from a, speaking from a platform, my, you know, you're giving a lecture, or, or, or whatever, or teaching a class or class even because it it invites a different type of relationship with whatever, whatever the subject matter is. And so you do have, I think, greater scope to to draw, draw people more gently for one of a better phrase into, into that conversation and and share with them in a way that might speak, might resonate with them in a a way which is maybe a little bit more tricky to do with just words. You know, getting somebody to feel because of the way the music sounds, or experience because of the way bodies move, or something like that, just can create a little bit of a different reaction or response to that subject matter, which I think creates greater, greater opportunity to for us to really unpack, okay, what is the, you know, the relationship between these aspects of the past and and, and where we are now, and and and draw us into a more um for one of a bit for us. You get illegalitarian conversation around where we are now and how we got here, and then what, what, what, how can, and I think creative space is also then, you know, a different type of imagination to come forward. So the, the website that you meant, that you said you looked at earlier that was one of the crit. What was one of the things we're trying to get across was that it's through um, if you were, so it.
Speaker 2We did concentrate on black culture, music in particular, but the idea was that actually it's when you're uh, from, when you're from a kind of oppressed grouping which has been, which is denied a certain type of um validity historically, and and and also how education has been denied, and things are not necessarily written down, uh and and because things are not necessarily written down as a certain sort of dismissiveness of that tradition or those traditions. But actually you still need to, you still find ways and spaces to imagine the potential of your, to imagine your own potential, and that happens through culture, and that's so the music dance become mechanisms for imagining or re and reimagining, and I think that that possibility still exists with creative and cultural spaces. So we can still find ways through that, through using those types of tools and that that type of thing, to think about how we, how people, can imagine and reimagine and rethink who we are, where we are and how we can, how we go forward. I don't know if that answered your question. I hope so.
Speaker 1What I'm getting from what you said. I like to think, I'm sure many do like to think that they are creative in their thinking, but it's how you explain almost immersive experiences, because sometimes words can't explain a feeling, and so when you're talking about music, dance, these mechanisms for being able to learn shape grow. I think it's really relevant, especially when we all have very different ways of thinking and looking at things, ways of educating ourselves, and so being able to learn in different types of creative spaces is super important. Which leads me to ask, actually because I'm conscious of time and wanting to ask you a couple of lightning round questions.
Speaker 1Oh, of course you have some really fun facts, which are also related to music, which I've been dying to ask you yeah, I can't remember what they are now, oh god what did I?
Speaker 2say, oh, that I was at his funeral.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yes, yeah, yeah. So this was because. So I had the first give or take, not quite, not exactly, but the first 13 years of my life. I lived in Jamaica and he happened to be lived there when he passed and I was lucky enough that at the time, my father another massive inspiration alongside my mother, and apologies to them for taking this long for them to get a shout out but he was working, he was in politics at the time in Jamaica and was able to arrange for us to attend a state funeral. So he, there were, if memory serves correctly, there was a state funeral. So there were, if memory serves correctly, there was a state funeral and there was a sort of more private family funeral.
Speaker 2Now, sadly, although I used to go past Bob Marley's house every day, as most people who lived in Kingston at the time probably did, we didn't know them personally, so we were not at the family funeral but we were at the state funeral. So I was and he was. He was able to arrange for me to uh, well, I think I think the both of us really to to file past his coffin. So I do have a very clear memory of walking past Bob Marley's coffin and what, seeing him lying in the coffin with the little, the sort of top end of the guitar poking up next to his, next to his face. I would have been not very, not very old at the time, certainly under 10, um, but it's yeah. So I've got a very, very strong memory of that and I also remember sort of not being very interested in going at the time but being dragged, uh, dragged by my father and then and um, and being grateful ever since for having been having been dragged, dragged along. So, yeah, that was, it wasn't, that was an and by, actually by strange quirks sorry, I don't by strange coincidence, I found myself.
Speaker 2I was at bob marnie's funeral. I found myself at peter tosh's funeral, also just by accident, because he was having there was a service for him after he died at the church opposite my school and I was, I don't know, for some reason. I was still hanging around and I couldn't work out why the church was so busy on a midweek afternoon and just wandered across and found that, oh, it was Peter Tosh's funeral. So I sat, sat and, you know, listened, um, and one other, I, one of the Barretts, so one who was one of the original, where there's not not family men. Barrett, the, the other, was also at his funeral. Same kind of scenario. Just by strange coincidence, I happened to be nearby at the time and got sucked in by something and found myself in the congregation.
Speaker 1But moments that matter and you look back and say, wow, I'm so glad that my dad pulled me A hundred, percent, a hundred percent the story that you retell and those moments that matter and you realize the more, the older that you get. You can't get the time back. A hundred percent, no, a hundred percent yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, the older that you get, you can't get the time back. 100, no, no, 100, yeah, yeah. Yeah, at the time I was like I don't even like this guy's music. Why am I going to this thing? Um, because I don't think I did at the time. I mean, I'm a huge fan now but yeah, but yeah. But I'm so pleased that and I actually said I think I said that to him a couple of very recently I said, oh no, actually I'm really glad you tracked me to that.
Speaker 1And final question before we summarize, Michelle, any advice that you might give to your younger self or someone who would like to be in the kind of role that you are in right now.
Speaker 2Oh, I mean, I think the advice I would give to my younger self is the advice I have still give to myself now is it can be hard, it can be tough, and you need to find those people and those support mechanisms that can help you.
Speaker 2I think you mentioned it at the beginning you got to keep your cup full, or at the very least, you have to be able to think of your cup as half full instead of half empty.
Speaker 2And that's much, much easier if you have people around that you can share your frustrations with, who understand where you're coming from. And I think it's particularly important in this type of role where, particularly if you're one of those people who is the only one in the building, you've got to find that person or those persons that you can just scream down the phone to and they will let you scream, you know, uh, and then up in and then, and then you can, you know, once you finish screaming, you can sometimes you need to get that scream so that you can just get that energy out, so that you can then think, you know, think more constructively about what it is you might need to do next. So I think that's what I would. I would say, um, yeah, just make sure you find those, that person or those persons ideally persons, whether they're inside your business or out. That that you can, that you can have that, that that kind of solidarity with michelle, thank you so much.
Speaker 1And it's been full circle, ending almost where we begun and I will make a point of this in the summary, which I will do my best to do right now is it is a tough place being the one and only, and often the one, and lonely, as we sometimes say, because the time spent worrying about how to fit in, to appear, what to say, is often really emotionally taxing. And so some of the things, some of the many things that I've learned from this podcast and I'm sure others are who are listening in, is the importance of names very much so, recognising the history and the background that comes with the power of those specific names and sure you as well as I have heard of many who have shortened or simplified their names for the benefit of others but to be proud about the heritage, who and where and why and what they stand for super important, um. But equally, it's been incredibly insightful and really powerful hearing about the history of you personally, but then also the history of black people and many other communities who have and should be continued to be recognized in Britain today. I don't think there's a more important time than there is right now, as we were saying to start with, for us to continue speaking about this, I think the presumption is that those of color are happy to continually talk and educate, but the emotional exhaustion that that takes is tremendous.
Speaker 1It is a double bind as well as the role for those especially that really believe in this great work, and so everyone can make a difference, every single person, everything that they do, that they say, the way they stand up and support, especially during times of challenge, are really really important. Way they stand up and support, especially during times of challenge, are really really important. And, um, you know? Finally, I really like the piece around immersive learning and conversations. We all learn in different ways, not necessarily, like you say, from books, but the creative expression and the ability to be able to talk and share with the peer network, and in often creative ways, through creative experiences, music, dance and through and I'll mention it here the Imagined New talk, which was very interesting as well for those who would like to check it out.
Speaker 1Um, michelle, thank you so much oh no, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1Thank you very much my name is leila mckenzie dallas, founder and ceo of dial global. You have been listening to, uh michelle. Uh, he has um been very kind to share his insight today. If you have been affected by anything during today's podcast, please make sure you reach out and don't be a stranger. Equally, podcast notes and show script will be on apple or spotify, your favorite podcast app, or you can visit us directly at wwwdarkglobalorg. Forward slash podcast and take care. We will look forward to seeing you again very soon.