The Scalability Code

Culture as a Catalyst: Keys to Successful Business Operations, with Jen Hamilton

• Matt Haney • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Struggling with operational challenges in your business? 

On this episode of The Scalability Code, Matt Haney sits down with Jen Hamilton, a Fractional COO and mentor to COOs, to discuss the secrets behind hiring top talent, managing business metrics, and fostering a thriving company culture. In this episode, you'll hear:

  • Jen's insights on navigating post-COVID workforce demands for flexibility and growth opportunities. 
  • How redefining your company's core values can attract and retain top talent. 
  • Strategies for recalibrating metrics to foster a culture of accountability and progress. 
  • Matt's personal story on aligning business and employee expectations through open communication. 
  • Key indicators that signal when it's time to consider bringing in a fractional COO or integrator.

Visit Jen's website: https://www.hamiltoncoos.com/
Connect with Jen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferdawnhamilton/

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Welcome to The Scalability Code, the podcast that helps you get out of the sh*t show and start growing your business. A few times each month, you'll hear stories and commentary from visionary entrepreneurs, EOS implementers, and fractional COOs about how they've taken businesses to Level 10. And now for your host, Matt Haney.

Matt Haney:

All right. First of all, you got to tell me who you are and how we know each other and give me, give me some backstory on you.

Jen Hamilton:

So, Jen Hamilton, I am a fractional COO and integrator and a recovering CPA. I'm past the past life. Matt and I have had the pleasure of being colleagues, uh, working together in, um, similar organization, being able to support. Clients in different ways. Um, I always know I could count on Matt when I found a client who really needs someone who could, uh, make sure they get their stuff done if I can without cussing and, and really committed to their goals, sometimes more than them. And so, um, I've just. So grateful for this opportunity to talk with you, Matt, and be able to,

Matt Haney:

Oh my God. Well, I'm honored. I, I, I tell people like, um, Starting this journey as a fractional and figuring out the roadmap. You were one of the first people I met. Um, and instantly had this, uh, attraction to your, your delivery, to your demeanor, to your, you know, lack of ego and, and I'm proud and honored to call you one of my first friends in the business and one of my colleagues and. You know, you and I have shared a lot of stories about things we're dealing with, growing our practice, helping our clients, all of it. Um, how did I got to have a beer with you in San Diego? Uh, it's just, it's great. So today I want to talk about some topics that I see come up regularly, and I'm just going to guess, come up regularly with you as well. I actually know they do because they're pretty common topics, but they're things that getting your perspective on them, I would cherish, um, because We don't have the answers, all the answers. We have suggestions. We draw back on experience, expertise and experience. But at the end of the day, a big part of what makes me successful is the group of people around me that I can go leverage when I need a tough question. I use EOSI implementers a lot. I use my fractional COO friends, my CPAs, my CFO, blah, blah, blah. So one of the things I want to ask you, give me, give me a minute or two about the top issues you see around hiring people that could be finding people that could be onboarding people that could be determining if they're going to culture fit all that stuff. So maybe tell a story or, um, tips that you pass on.

Jen Hamilton:

So the answer to what am I struggling with? Or what do I see struggling? Everything that you just listed is a challenge. And I think that it's not going away anytime soon. Um, this whole, if you almost can say post recognition resignation that happened after COVID. The mentality isn't gone and I don't think it's gonna, I don't think it's ever gonna go away like the genie's out of the bottle in

Matt Haney:

What do you mean by that? Tell me what you mean by that mentality,

Jen Hamilton:

the workforce is now demanding. They want what they want. It's no longer an employer demand. It's an employee demand. I want flexibility. I want, you know, growth opportunities. I want to have, um, the kind of friends I want to have. I want to have the type of hours. I want to work where I want to work. I want to take vacation. I want to be recognized. And I don't think it's just a millennial or Gen Z. It's, it's everyone now is like, Hey, we had a taste of, you know, What it's like to, to make our life, um, uh, the way we want out of COVID and being forced to just look at life differently. And yet I see employers not always. Thinking like, Hey, we can just put that genie back in the bottle and, and we could just force them to come in the office or, you know, just, uh, be micromanaged and, um, not have to give growth opportunities, all these things that the workforce is demanding. And, and the thing that's, I think is good news is if you really do lean into your core values, you actually act on them, you have them clarified, act on them, hire by them, fire by them, do performance management, you do actually. Invest in your team, give them growth opportunities. It doesn't even have to be expensive. You could do like a book club, right? Um, you acknowledge them a lot of, uh, saying, recognizing if you just do some of the basic human needs, you will beat your competitors, especially if you make that clear in your hiring. But this is the kind of culture. And then when they come and they actually experience it, either just even through the interview process or certainly make that clear in your onboarding, but live it, you're going to be able to get that top talent because top talent will leave very quickly if they're not getting what they want. So that demanding, I don't think he's ever going away and it's not just the younger generation.

Matt Haney:

but are you asking your clients or advising them to kind of hold tight to what they know is important? Because remember at one point it was like, oh my God, we got to give them this. We got to take it. We got to do all this stuff. Are you saying. You know, outwardly, like we need to slow down and stop, you know, that just because that's what they want, doesn't mean that a, we have to give it to them or be that they're the right candidate. I mean, it's that whole adage, you know, higher, slow, fire, fast. I mean, are you, are you, you're, you hire people. So you're, are you holding the line on that and being like, yeah, that demands a little outside of reality and also not part of the culture we would,

Jen Hamilton:

what I would hold to is what is going to authentically work in your culture to cause productivity. And so that doesn't mean you need a pool table in the lunchroom and, you know, ping pong or whatever and go do like yoga retreats with your folks. I think that's what people get. It's what authentically will cause you as a team to be connected and to be productive. And when you, when you step back, if people have more autonomy, If they have more a chance to be masters in their craft, so have some development that is legitimately going to help them be better at their craft. If they have access to tools that give them some flexibility, more on top, more, um, uh, AI type of tools, more automation tools, so they can do their best work and not get stuck in the drudgery. What I'm caught what I'm really pointing to is it should be a win win. It's not one sided just because they're demanding doesn't mean you have to meet the demands and just, but then I also wouldn't be demanding back. Don't just close the door and say, you have to always be in the office. You can't work remotely. If there is more productivity, if there is more engagement, there's more effective, um, really your bottom line is effective when your team are productive, then just be open to how can we create a culture that works for, for us and for them.

Matt Haney:

Yeah, I'm going to tell you a quick story because you triggered it. That's something I'm working on. Uh, one of my clients in Austin, they're a mechanical contracting firm, so they install big HVA systems, HVAC systems, and um, like plumbing for commercial buildings. Uh, we needed a business development rep, we needed someone senior, we needed someone who'd been in the industry. The guy we found after three months of searching was a project manager in the space for 12 years. So he's got a, you know, a detail minded, so not a big, good culture fit, knows the space, can talk the talk, like gets it, instant credibility with customers because he can talk about the. So it was awesome. But he lived an hour outside of Austin and my client was very insistent that he'd be in the office. And I said, this guy's the right fit. We did predictive index and Colby on this one. I don't know what you use. Um, do you use predictive index or just Colby?

Jen Hamilton:

It depends. I usually go with what my client is using and I definitely have used both of those in the

Matt Haney:

So, um, me too. It's a good answer. My client, I love predictive index. It's just not cheap. I think it's like 12, 1, 200 a month or something, but these guys are big enough to have it. Anyway, he is the perfect profile. We did all the things and he's like, listen, I need to live. I need to be in my office. At home three days a week, he's got kids and, and we struggled with it, but we ended up coming to, to your point, what was best for us and best for him. He's coming in on Mondays, which is, uh, he's fighting traffic one day a week. And then the other days he's expected to be at the office doing the work, but then also being in market for meetings and business development, whatever, all that stuff, but man, he was, we were so intentional about the time we put into it in the process, he was taken back. We had his wife come up. We all had dinner with his wife. We talked through it. And he needed that ask. And we said, that's not really the culture of our company, but we're going to, we're going to move it to the middle. He came in the middle. I said, fine, let's do this. Let's come up with a really. Concise scorecard that we all believe in for the first 90 days. And let's just set this thing up from the beginning with proper expectations so that there's no, what are you doing every day? What do you mean? And this guy's an old, he's not young, but he's not old. Anyway, it just was the right fit. And from the beginning, I think we all just kind of dropped our shoulders because we're like, we have clear expectations. He's a culture fit. We did all the things. Um, so. That is a pat on the back to all of us for meeting people where they are, holding expectations for what they should be and being genuine and just like candid. So anyway, that triggered my thought when you said that.

Jen Hamilton:

I also want to acknowledge you and, and the team and anyone who really does this. It's a sign of good leadership. I think when people rely on, um, structure, meaning like you have to be in the office or you have to be from nine to five or I would question yourself. How are you as a leader? Because if you can maybe up your leadership skills that you don't have to feel like I'm not in control. I don't know what's going on. That's a leadership thing, not a structural thing. And I think people lean on structure, blame structure when it might be look in the mirror and see, you know, how can I lead? So you gave a perfect example. Very clear expectations, being able to make it work, understand what's happening. It's more about communication and trust and verify that you can

Matt Haney:

Right. Right.

Jen Hamilton:

leadership. It's,

Matt Haney:

That is so well said. I use the term pre existing conditions. I don't know if you know that term from an insurance world. Remember when they, you, you would go apply for an insurance policy and they would, they would disqualify you for pre existing conditions, something that happened previously. So I spent a lot of time with my visionary saying, Hey, I'm sensing some pre existing conditions there. And I don't want to push that onto this new person who we're trusting and believing let's not, let's not carry our baggage. And people are like, okay, that's right. I hear you. So. Uh, to your point, being curious, being a good leader, and, um, being, being open to something different.

matt-haney_2_02-06-2025_192447:

you are listening to the Scalability Code. I'm your host, Matt Haney, founder of Sinclair Ventures, and we help visionary entrepreneurs like you get out of the shit show and focus on growing your business.

Matt Haney:

We offer fractional COO and leadership coaching services that free up that brain of yours to focus on what's next. Learn more about us at SinclairVentures. com. Now back to it. You and I, we, you and I stare at scorecards all day, every day. And I've been asking this topic to a few different people about how to manage, uh, red scorecards. And what I mean is we start an engagement with somebody generally, generally, we're receiving some sort of red on the scorecard. Otherwise maybe they wouldn't need us. Um, one I'm struggling with right now is consistent revenue. Right, week over week, which is good. This company measures weekly, week over week revenue, but it's still 25 percent below the target that they have set. Now, maybe that target was from COVID days when everyone was over inflated or they lost a big customer and whatever. But I'm walking into a very consistent scorecard, but it's 25 percent below the number they've assigned. And it's a Debbie the downer day when you come in every freaking day and see a red number. So I want to get your thoughts on how you approach that and, and maybe some tips or suggestions on how to move to a solution.

Jen Hamilton:

One of the things that I think is really interesting around metrics, individual metrics, company metrics, I have this conversation a lot with different clients, is really the psychology of grades. And you're like, what do you mean? You know, think about it when we were in school and the psychology of grades. And if you are, um, treating it like this is a measure of you as a human, like some parents would do like, Oh my gosh, you're an A student. It defines you. Oh, you're a C student. It defines you. Um, you want to be very careful about the messages that your scorecard is sending and the red and the green and all of that kind of stuff. And so when you can start to like, Separate, what are you making this mean? As individuals, as a, as a group, what are you making this mean? And, and to an extent, if you're always a C student, let's say that's the equivalent of red, you just don't give a crap anymore about trying to even go for

Matt Haney:

Because you're a C student, you've been labeled, you are

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah, you're just kind of stuck there. So what I, what I try to get them to see is like, if you sort of peel back the onion, one of the things is sometimes there's weird psychology. Humans are weird. You know, like if we're all dogs, it'd probably be easier. We're just like, I love you. Um, and that's it. But some people are, um, they have a fear of success. Some people have a fear of failure. Like there's just different things that are happening. And sometimes it was staying in the red. feels more comfortable than actually going for an A and sit, you know, just staying in a seat. So one of the things that I want to, what I like to do to kind of solve some of this First of all, I like to communicate that metrics have nothing to do with your worth as a human. Really just put it out there. This is not the purpose. This is not to judge you. This is not to grade you. This is not to score you. What I like to make very, very clear is that metrics are a measure of feedback. And I like

Matt Haney:

Uh, that's so good. That's a quote. I love it. A measurement of feedback. I love it.

Jen Hamilton:

Just feedback, right? I like to make the analogy, and I actually share this, with, with the team, so that they can stop getting all wrapped up in their head around it. Whether it's green all the time, or red all the time, it's also a problem, right? Not stretching, and not even trying, or whatever. But I think the thing is, if we think about our car as a dashboard, there are a lot of metrics. In a car, but there's a few key metrics and all it is, is giving you feedback. So if your car registers that it's almost out of fuel. You're not going to be like, I'm a horrible, horrible human being. No, it's judging me. It's like, no, just it's feedback to take action. And that's all that metrics are is it allows us to know, do I need to take action? Do I need to go get gas in my car? Do I need to go plug it in? If it's electric, whatever it is, you know, or the check engine's like, I gotta go take action. All that metrics are is feedback to take action. And so when you are always red or always green, or maybe not completing them all the time, you can't take action. And you can't be proactive. You can't be reactive, even. Um, and so you can't solve problems, and they're likely to come up every time. And so if I can get the team to be committed to that we are going to be better if we take action, then let's recalibrate our metrics so that they give us good feedback, so we can take appropriate action.

Matt Haney:

Love it. Love it. Love it. Um, measurement of feedback. I've heard that. Obviously, I've heard you say before, but I do think it's a, it's good to hear that again. And I'm going to pick I'm going to take that that dashboard of your car mentality and look at that. So I'm going to put you on the spot though. I've got a red scorecard, right? This 1 revenue metrics, 25 percent low. Do I say to them. Hey, I think we need to adjust this measurement to be a reach, a reasonable reach over where we are today, not showing 25 percent need to pick up and that we're just never going to get there. So do I go back and adjust that effective immediately and say, you know, because your point is valid, like you see that glaring red and whoever's name's next to it is ultimately the one that dreads the meeting to show that. So what is that? That's the approach?

Jen Hamilton:

I would make it, I would, if it's me, I'm putting it on the issues list to bring it up as a conversation, and I would just kind of. Make it like, let's peel the onion back here a little bit. Where did we come up with this number? Why did we come up with this number? What's the intention with this number? Like, just, like, sort of get to the root cause of why it is 25 percent off. And what is our intention here? And I, like, rebuild it. What is it that we want to have this actually be? And is it, is it, Is it really mean that if we don't hit this 25 percent higher amount, we're in trouble? Like what, just really kind of get the team to unravel it and then say, let's build it up with the intention in mind. So once you can get clear on like, what are we trying to go for? And also using, like we love to do with the smart goals is like, what is attainable? What is realistic? I would rather start to, especially when they've had a lot of red. I would rather they start to get some wins and even just have it like let's just start to get some wins and build momentum and build back up to the 25%. But let's like, let's start with 3 percent and see if we can stay consistent at 3 percent higher.

Matt Haney:

And to your point, it's almost, it's sometimes arbitrary if it was something that was hit years ago or, uh, or months, quarters ago, but it's one thing if it's like, okay, well, that number we have to get to to get to profitability. Okay, then that's, that's a different deal, right? Because now you have a reason to get there, not just this arbitrary or what may seem as an arbitrary number. Awesome. All right. A couple more. One more question or two. And I'm gonna let you go. Um, I get asked a lot of times early on in conversations with prospects, potential clients. How long are your engagements? And what I plan in my mind, me in this case, as the visionary hiring the integrator, how long should I plan to have you? And how do I know you're going to stay in that long or not six months past that or six months ahead of that?

Jen Hamilton:

So I'm going to give you two answers. One, I'm going to give you the, um, the, what I think is a more of an ideal Engagement. And then my second answer is, is like every other doctor or lawyer. It depends. Right? So.

Matt Haney:

Let me be vague. Yeah,

Jen Hamilton:

But let me, so let me say what I, I think is the ideal amount of time with someone coming in and really as your fractional COO or integrator, what you're doing is you're putting in a new operating approach. As whether it's a system, whether it's new tools, new team, et cetera. And I really think just stepping back, ideally you want to be there a little over a year. Maybe it could go faster, and that's where the depends comes. Like, like, let's see if it could go faster, but what I like to do as an outside operator who's causing the team and the processes to happen is get through an entire cycle, and then a little bit more. You know, just like to kind of really get complete, because when you first start, you're just trying to get an understanding of what's going on, and there's usually chaos that you're trying to, like, simmer down some of the heat. So Do I have perfect things that are like a little bit more than a year? No, like it almost never, but which is the second answer. But I think it's a good goal to see, like, what can we do to get a full operating cycle with better processes, better team, better approach to communicating, to working together, to problem solving. Um, and then I will say, you know, I have had. Clients that only made it 10 months because the budget was such that we, you know, it wasn't going to work anymore for me. And in that example, it was a client who we got, we did all the right things. We got the wrong people off the bus, but they were there. The revenue generators, so all of the admin people were the right people and the revenue generators weren't so now the ratio wasn't right and I was like, you guys now have a good enough leadership team. I didn't finish. Let me give you a plan of what I would do to finish out the year. Your team can take it from there, finish it out, but don't, don't spend money on me right now because your admin numbers percentage is too high.

Matt Haney:

Yeah. Come back

Jen Hamilton:

never know.

Matt Haney:

So my answer has been, it takes me 30 to 60 days to understand the business, the people, because remember we're only in there fractionally. If I was in there five days a week for, for, you know, 50 hours a week, then sure five days a week. Yeah. I'd be great. Different story, but I'm learning personalities, you know, six to 12 hours at a time. So that takes a minute. Right. And then, uh, to make your suggestions on any changes that you see from a people perspective or accountability chart or changes, you know, it takes time to understand that. And then I would say you need 90 days to hire anyone because you're going to start your search. Once you have your accountability chart defined, once you have roles and responsibilities, once you have the job description, if you're using a talent recruiter, then obviously you've got someone to go help prospect, but it's going to take you 30 days to get a pool of qualified candidates to have a conversation. Okay, great. That's going to take another two weeks to onboard hire. To hire a person, then it's gonna take them two weeks, all of a sudden, it's 90 days right there. Just hiring one person for one seat, either at the leadership team level or a key player, you know, one step down. I mean, that just eats up, eats up three months, and then you're gonna want to be able to see them be successful and make sure that you're setting expectations around what holding them accountable looks like, which just has to be different than what the last person that was hired was. So, I think you're spot on with a year. I've, I've seen, I've had one engagement that lasted 11 months or 10 months. Um, and, but all of them, other ones are, are 12 months. And I still have some sort of minimal engagement with a two and a half year old, two and a half year client. So, um, short answer plan on a year. It's just have that in your mind. And if, if something drives, you know, that forward or back, then you have the conversation around it.

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah. The thing that I think is, is really important to also see though, is that what is the commitment and the caliber of your team that already exists? Cause that's part of what can make things go faster or slower.

Matt Haney:

If you've got a young leadership team, either young as in young in the business or young as a leader, then you are, you are sort of, you need to account, you need to account for that. Um, and their leadership abilities and such it's, um, but it's, it's a ton of fun, a ton of fun. Um, what else can you need? Words of wisdom before we sign off thoughts, suggestions for early stage visionary owners that are kind of stuck in the show, as I say.

Jen Hamilton:

I think, so one of the things I've been looking at is like, what are some of the symptoms, right? And then it's time to talk to someone like us. And there are two that keep coming up. And so if this is you, then it might be time to talk to someone, right? You know, it's like kind of like, is this time to talk to a doctor? You know, I've had this fever for many days kind of thing. The two things are, if you are complaining to your buddies or maybe you have a coach or something, if you're complaining to somebody else who would get it that my people are not accountable and they don't do what they promised, that's one. Or two, they don't take initiative. then it's, then it's time to call Matt. It's time,

Matt Haney:

so great.

Jen Hamilton:

that's really a

Matt Haney:

day.

Jen Hamilton:

It's really a symptom of a much bigger, um, operating thing. So it, but it's super simple, right? You can, you can know, is this happening or is this not? And I'm not saying everybody, but if

Matt Haney:

but again, if you're hearing that or you're saying that, or you hear someone else saying that, I mean, yeah, exactly. You wouldn't, you equate that to your doctor references. Like how many times do you complain about that knee pain and deal with the limp before you go see the orthopedic and figure out you've got a torn meniscus. I mean, like you're just going to say it and see it so many times that finally you're going to take action. Uh, so that's a really, a really solid point. Well, Jen, you're the best. I adore you. I appreciate you. And I'm so glad to call you a colleague. So. Thank you for, uh, for taking some time to chat.

Jen Hamilton:

Like, uh, like the golden girl, thank you for being a friend.

Matt Haney:

Thank you for being a friend. I love it.

Thank you for listening to The Scalability Code. If you made it this far, please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get out of the sh*t show together. We'll see you next time on The Scalability Code.