The Scalability Code

Leading with Vulnerability: Lessons from Expert EOS Implementer Benjamin Berman

• Matt Haney • Season 1 • Episode 3

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In this episode, Matt introduces Ben Berman, a seasoned EOS implementer with over 15 years of experience. They discuss the importance of visionary-integrator alignment, handling cultural challenges, and onboarding strategies for new employees. 

Discover the critical elements of effective leadership, coaching, and employee engagement that can help elevate your business to new heights. Tune in to learn actionable insights and real-world examples that can transform your approach to business growth and development.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

  • Common themes from Ben’s experience as an EOS implementer 
  • Onboarding tips to set new hires up for success
  • How to maintain consistency with accountability charts
  • Why it’s so important to lead with vulnerability
  • Why those from humble beginnings make for good entrepreneurs

Connect with Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/createaselfmanagingbusiness/

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Welcome to The Scalability Code, the podcast that helps you get out of the sh*t show and start growing your business. A few times each month, you'll hear stories and commentary from visionary entrepreneurs, EOS implementers, and fractional COOs about how they've taken businesses to Level 10. And now for your host, Matt Haney.

Matt Haney:

Okay, so guys, this is a friend of mine, newer friend of mine, known Ben Berman for the last two years or less. Um, he and I have been in workshops together. We've been in, uh, sessions together, and I can tell you there's no other person I'd rather be in a workshop with. Am am I in a room with someone where I feel like I. The, the magic is there, right? He and I just for whatever reason, are able to click. and there's something incredibly special about being in a room with them to bring perspective and nuance personality, to the, to the meeting. So I am very grateful to have been in sessions with you and, and consider you a mentor and a friend. A colleague. So, thank you for, for the help you've given me over the last couple years and I look forward to getting to know you

Benjamin Berman:

Amen. Amen. I so appreciate that. Now let me bestow amazing praise on you. So let me tell you about Matt. There are many people who tout themselves as integrators out there who don't have the real grit and understanding systems knowledge and deep strategic thinking that Matt brings to the table. He is the rare combination. Of being able to do it really, really well himself, but not doing it himself, helping others, explaining himself clearly, elevating others, and the directness that you need in an integrator, the doggedness that you need in integrator, but also the care around messaging, the humility and the respect that he brings so that when he brings a tough message to the table that your team needs to hear, they're gonna thank him for doing it as opposed to putting up their dukes.

Matt Haney:

it. um, how gimme like your e os background, how long you've been here, how.

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah. So, um, I've been in the world of EOS in one way or another for over 15 years. About half of that was being mentored by some of the greatest implementers, Jonathan Smith, Mark O'Donnell, some legendary names. Um, and then after about seven, eight years, one time I was implementing it in a company, rocket Ship Growth. Literally dozens of people by the week because it was commission only sales. So the more people we can get on board, trained up rock and and rolling, the better. Um, that was in Rocketship that helped us get our arms around the craziness. And then, uh, I got brought in to run a company, a company had been around for 19 years. On my third day of work, one of my sales guys who at the time was more than twice my age. Uh, tried to punch out another sales guy. Now I grew up boxing, so that wasn't, the violence wasn't the issue, but

Matt Haney:

culture

Benjamin Berman:

was the culture. That's right. The culture was a bit, uh, suboptimal and I'm proud to say over the course of the next few years, um. We turned it around, we broke revenue records, profit records, and it continues on that well beyond me. It's not about me. Um, and then in the process, I, uh, gained in a brother who's adopted kid grew up in the hood, is rough. An upbringing as you can imagine, was homeless for a while, gangs the whole nine. Um, and he went from a warehouse clerk to being the integrator in that company.

Matt Haney:

amazing.

Benjamin Berman:

uh, is running a company of his own and is the adopted middle brother in, in my family.

Matt Haney:

That's

Benjamin Berman:

So

Matt Haney:

And

Benjamin Berman:

long term.

Matt Haney:

you've done? Um,

Benjamin Berman:

Oh, like some here, somewhere between 750, 800 sessions, something like that. Yeah.

Matt Haney:

me, um, if you can, and think about this, tell me, um, give, give me the top recurring theme you see. Session session.

Benjamin Berman:

It's not one theme, but it's a a few, so I would say if you think about EOS as a system. And it's a really great diagnostic system in that it, it's like going to the doctor, your general practitioner, it's gonna get you healthy on the basic level, and it's gonna diagnose any areas that need deeper focus. Right? And almost always, there's a people issue behind the problem. There's often a process issue. Um, and then like it tends to bounce backwards between those two, uh, on, on most cases. That being said, to go deeper on each. Visionary integrator alignment becomes sort of the thing that unlocks. You get that now you've got the first unlock, then you get your processes dot locked in and, and then now you can start to automate them and, and layer on top and you've got your data and your systems layer on top. It's like people begin to start to see the matrix and the theme is those who, who are. Uh, otherwise coachable tend to outperform. I've got clients who would admit they're not, you know, the smartest people on the planet. Let me rephrase that. All my clients are brilliant, but they would call themselves not the smartest people, um, but they're just really good at running the play. And those people outperform, you know, Harvard Business, Wharton, all that, that, that are like trying to make it complicated for no reason. It doesn't need to be complex. It's about execution.

Matt Haney:

You hit

Benjamin Berman:

Do the,

Matt Haney:

that triggered me. Uh, that's a great

Benjamin Berman:

yeah.

Matt Haney:

And, and I don't say it enough because. don't, but you said coachable. Um, and that's something that is, um, I've seen in my practice and I know you've seen it. Um, I try to be coachable and I think I have to go outta my way'cause we all do Right. To be and, and vulnerable and ex and, and out there.

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah.

Matt Haney:

how you, you've dealt with just some uncoachable people that. You're willing, you're willing to invest in them, and they, they sort of came across the line and, and all that transformational opportunity where turns out Ben Berman's not an idiot.

Benjamin Berman:

Well, I would never lie on camera. So Ben, I can't say that Ben Berman's not an idiot. I'm certainly idiot in a lot of ways. Um, so I've had the great privilege of seeing you. Uh, unlock people and I'll share kind of a common theme between the two. So, so whether it came from me or came from you, the consistent theme has been leading with vulnerability. That's one. And sort of like, Hey, look, I'm gonna level with you and say I might get this message wrong, but I'm gonna do my absolute best. Soon as you lower your level, other people are willing to step up in my experience.

Matt Haney:

So good.

Benjamin Berman:

And number two. Number two, I've seen you do like a lot of time. It's not the thing, it's never really about the thing. It's usually about the thing behind the thing. So, um. You know, it's not about the stapler or whatever. It, it, it's, it's about the years of abuse that Milton suffered in office space. Right. So, so what ultimately lets people, or causes people to set things on fire and become uncoachable is the experience they've had at the company, the experience they've had in their lives where they've been hurt before. I mean, this is not profound stuff necessarily, even though I see you've got the DSM behind you, like it's all that,

Matt Haney:

you're the

Benjamin Berman:

right?

Matt Haney:

that's ever noticed it. You're the first person. And I've had it there for, uh, I've had it there been, my wife's a social worker, so I've had it there for, for 15 years. I.

Benjamin Berman:

But I think it's appropriate, right? Like we, they, we notice things for a reason, and I think that I. Recognizing that there's a human being who, whether it, if that's a dictionary behind you, whether it's intelligence, right, like IQ or eq, there's always something that could be unlocked that's getting in the way. Uh, and usually it's the, it's the emotional piece behind the, the intelligence piece.

Matt Haney:

well said, so well said. Um, I give an example of something that came up today to sort of, uh, our, this week I'm interviewing a new client. They asked me for referral, come in and I, I meet them and,

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Haney:

we have a great lunch. Someone locally, a great lunch, and the guy's, I'm asking about his L 10. He's been on us for a year, been through a professional implementation with another. He said to me, uh, you know, I don't, I don't attend the all 10 in person. My team does, and I do it virtually. I said, oh, that's

Benjamin Berman:

Hmm.

Matt Haney:

you travel a lot, you must be on the road. He goes, no, no, I, my house is five minutes from the office. And I

Benjamin Berman:

Hmm.

Matt Haney:

oh, that's interesting. Tell me more. tell me more. Well. It's eight o'clock on Thursdays and I just, I, I'm not myself at best at 8:00 AM on Thursdays, and, and I don't, and I said, well, wait, is it 8:00 AM on Thursday? Well, it's always been 8:00 AM on Thursday. I said, well wait a. We, we gotta, we, I, I'm not even working with you and I can tell you like, that sends a signal to your team that either you're better than or, or you're not interested or something. He goes, well, I just, and I'm like, you know, the emotional, and, and he just, he wasn't trying to be a jerk, I don't think. I think he just thought he was best if his team was sitting in a conference room and he was on the screen and it was

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah.

Matt Haney:

I don't know what that says about culture.

Benjamin Berman:

You know, it's, it's funny you should say that. That makes me think of two things. First, I was thinking from a positive note, like, you know, I'm gonna let my team run more of the meeting. I'm gonna purposely physically step back so they can't look to me for the answers. I was like, oh, that's the good. That's not what that is.

Matt Haney:

Um, okay. Another topic that it's fresh and hot on my mind that I wanted, I, I spend a lot of time hiring people and I love it. It's one of my favorite

Benjamin Berman:

Mm.

Matt Haney:

do. Hiring people is a passion and I enjoy it. and I love the opportunity to, impact people's lives positively, specifically if we're not, refilling a seat. We have a hole on the, on the accountability chart that hasn't been filled by anyone yet. It's great. We don't have

Benjamin Berman:

Hmm.

Matt Haney:

pre-existing conditions. We've got an opening. This is great. No pre-existing conditions. We get to onboard this person the right way. We get to set the roles and responsibilities we get to establish

Benjamin Berman:

Hmm.

Matt Haney:

means. It's like this really shining moment for me as an integrator to, to get in and bring somebody in. Um, I'd love to get just your thoughts on, on ways that you've seen people welcomed into culture or you've had a leader or you, yourself have welcomed someone in that, you know, that never get a second chance to make a first impression. Like, tell me. there's anything that pops into your mind about, you know, onboarding a new client or onboarding a new employee or some person that shows up from one session to the next session and you're like, wow, I got a new body. Gimme, gimme something there.

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah. Um, so one of my great passions in life is the power of magic moments for customers, for employees, for friends. Like I just love it. I love doing those things where people are like, oh my God, that's freaking amazing. When it comes to new employee, I think I've seen not, I think I've seen a whole bunch of great stuff. The first is something as simple. As like walking over as the owner of the company, shaking their hand, welcoming, saying You have a place here. I appreciate you coming in. I cannot wait to serve you. Just set the tone from the first moment they walk in and before they walk in on the onboarding. What are their favorite snacks? What do they like? What like, have all that stuff have theme music on their first day. I mean, you can go whatever's culturally appropriate, but just to do the little things that are inefficient that show that you are taking the time to care purposely and efficient. Elevating the moment goes a long way.

Matt Haney:

You're right. And it, you know, you said it inefficient, but, but inefficient means intentional. And you went outta your way to make sure that you knew they were part of the, the, the solution and part of the culture.

matt-haney_2_02-06-2025_192447:

You are listening to the Scalability Code. I'm your host, Matt Haney, founder of Sinclair Ventures, and we help visionary entrepreneurs like you get out of the shit show and focus on growing your business. We offer fractional COO and leadership coaching services that free up that brain of yours to focus on what's next. Learn more about us at SinclairVentures. com. Now back to it.

Matt Haney:

Um, onboarding. Tell me,

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah.

Matt Haney:

I've, I've onboarded a hundred people. I'm sure you have too. Some of them not

Benjamin Berman:

Mm-hmm.

Matt Haney:

some of them Well, um, tell me any, any tips there, any thoughts, any, anything that's come up around, you know, it's like, oh, we're gonna build this 30, 60, 90 day plan, we're gonna, it's like, you know, but the reality is you and I work with a lot of small to mid-sized businesses that are sub hundred 50 million in revenue, sub 50 employees, and there's not always a baked out onboarding plan. Wisdom there. Any thoughts around what you've.

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah, so, so, uh, couple things. First conceptual, then practical. Conceptually, it's very important that businesses understand that when it comes to their employees in this day and age, where people are literally not showing up for the first day of work or are taking another offer, or just quiet, quitting and all this nonsense that they must be. Perpetually marketing to their own team and selling to their own team. It's called employer branding.

Matt Haney:

employer.

Benjamin Berman:

doesn't only happen externally. Employer branding. Yeah. So I have a, um, I the best marketer, one of the best marketers I've ever met. Um, and if anyone wants to know who that is, you can hit me up after the show. But the idea is, um. Uh, guy named Brandon Lin and he, he did, he, he's massively successful at external marketing and internal marketing and I would argue like he actually did research that showed, it was fascinating for his masters back in the day that people take the 30, 60, 90 plan. And that's typical. But the time that a, an employee is gonna lose faith in a company is from 90 to 180 days if you don't nail that second quarter.'cause everyone's sexy on their honeymoon period. If you don't start to settle into the doldrums of regular business and continue to support and uplift that person, you've lost'em forever. So I think there's a sales job on culture. There's a sales job on vision, and when it comes to onboarding, it's a, it's, it's a start and never stop mentality as opposed to it's a journey, not an event.

Matt Haney:

Right, right. I don't wanna switch gears, but sort of, uh, sort of, but similar on I, an issue I'm dealing with that I'd love your feedback with or feedback on is, um, companies changing the accountability chart and, you know. I sort of, I, I try to say, let's, let's keep it, you know, in 90 day increments. It's like, no, no, we need to hire this seat. Now we've, we've already built out the vision. We've worked with

Benjamin Berman:

Mm-hmm.

Matt Haney:

we have the seats we need, but you know. It's like visionaries and me sometimes even as more of a visionary than not, like, struggle with like, what the best, you know, how, how do we stand firm on our plan to hire against the accountability chart that we have because all these seats are priority in some capacity or they wouldn't have made it to the board. But, um, any wisdom there or direction on, on maintaining that consistency within the accountability chart.,

Benjamin Berman:

So Eisenhower Matrix, many people are familiar with urgent and important. I would, I would add one more, which is significant and it's sort of an evolution of that. I think the most urgent hire is the one that is gonna be most significant in that unlocks all the others. If you make this higher today relative to the rest, what is gonna free up the most executive time? Free up the most cash flow, generate the most return in the business. And you really are investing like a portfolio manager. You've only got certain amounts of bets to place. You're not gonna necessarily put it all in one place, but you wanna prioritize, so you know, an integrator, for instance, over, over an hr, manager, for instance, right? Because the leverage there is so much higher.

Matt Haney:

Right. Interesting. The Eisenhower matrix, I have, I heard I need to put it on my, my shorter list of things to continue to reference back and use that tool. It's a great, a great tool I've used several times, let's see. in that same vein, uh, unfortunately about a big part of my job as an integrator is we do have to, uh, help people understand and, and help the company understand that we may not have right people in the right seat. Um, it's an unfortunate part of what we do sometimes, but, uh, the good, the, you know, and also a good. Some of my biggest successes have been moving people out of a seat that they were in previously and

Benjamin Berman:

Mm-hmm.

Matt Haney:

part of the culture of the company and, and, and continuing to remain and allow them to know the significance they have in the business. Um, coach a lot of visionaries, you coach a lot of companies. Tell me about, um, know, how you get to the point where you realize someone's not the best person for that seat. Because they're a good human, right. They're a good person at the company, but they're just not as effective as they could be in another seat.

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah, I, I, it's a gut check and it's like, if I gave this person all the time in the world, would they be able to be absolutely stellar in this seat? And, and if the answer is not, it's yes, but, or if it's part of it or whatever,

Matt Haney:

yeah.

Benjamin Berman:

then we need to find a different seat for them.

Matt Haney:

Right, right, right. Well said. Well said. Um, what else can I pick your brain on these nuggets of wisdom? red metrics on the scorecard. Tolerating red

Benjamin Berman:

it.

Matt Haney:

and, and I have a company, a client right now that I'm, you know, they've got a, a myriad of scorecards and, and the metrics that are read have been consistently read, not drastic. And I'm trying to either convince them to, focusing on the wrong metrics or we're not committed to correcting the ones. And if it's been read this long and we're so successful, is it really a metric that's read

Benjamin Berman:

Bing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look either. Either the goal is off, the number is unattainable, and that's unrealistic. That's off track. You change that at least quarterly, if not more. Or I heard someone speaking yesterday saying like, if you can't tie it to a business outcome, why we're giving this data, then you're just putting crap up in the air to like fill space.

Matt Haney:

So

Benjamin Berman:

So.

Matt Haney:

metrics should, if we've got a metric that's off quarter by quarter and it's not affecting the business, again, business is healthy, cash flow is good,

Benjamin Berman:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Matt Haney:

something that's not worth measuring?

Benjamin Berman:

I'm saying that I think the goal for a metric needs to be updated at least quarterly. I think if any metric at any point is not, is deemed to not give you a good, don't just get rid of it and, and, and, and not replace it. But certainly, like, let's take a good hard look at what a better metric that would give us impactful information would be.

Matt Haney:

Fantastic. I'm gonna tag onto that for a second. Same client. I saw our prospect, I saw yesterday, big boom in in Covid. They're actually, um, they sell height adjustable desks and had a crazy covid boom. And since then

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah.

Matt Haney:

but it's slightly falling a little bit and not

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah.

Matt Haney:

They're still making good money. They're big company, big employees. But they're, they're watching that metric slide and they're doing everything that they can, everything, including, I mean, they've got a 12 to 15 million marketing budget, big business. They just

Benjamin Berman:

Nice. Yeah.

Matt Haney:

get back to where it was.

Benjamin Berman:

Mm-hmm.

Matt Haney:

It's like, do, do we readjust that metric to where it's is currently and try to stay there because you just see that red and it's demoralizing. And, and what are your, what are your thoughts?

Benjamin Berman:

Yeah. One of the first things we talk about in EOS on the first day is hitting the ceiling and the five leadership abilities. One of those abilities is predict if you are predicting incorrectly, you're just gonna have useless data. So to answer that question more directly and tie it together, IBM once had a goal for a division to lose less than$5 million that quarter. You deal with the reality and you obsess about getting it to a number that's gonna make you feel like you have progress in the right direction. Lemme rephrase that, not make you feel. That will be genuine progress in the right direction in brutal hard times. That might be a number that we're not excited about in its own right, but it certainly beats the alternative.

Matt Haney:

man, I, I am not adjusting my scorecard goals on a more, on a frequent enough basis. I, I'm not

Benjamin Berman:

Hmm.

Matt Haney:

feel like I'm, you know, all of a sudden doing a disservice by not, but now I've got an opportunity where it's like I, We, we all struggle with ways to make improvements and changes. At some point, we're supposed to have all the answers, but in reality we don't. Now this is giving me the opportunity to say, okay, great. We need to go back in and readdress these and, um, and not look at them as, shortcomings per se, but let's just get reasonable and realistic at what the actual goal is and how we're gonna measure against it.

Benjamin Berman:

So I was talking about my brother and I wanted to close the loop. Which is the, the long, and I think you know this, but the long term medium term goal, he now runs his own company. He's running his own turnaround of a business. And we believe that kids and people like him who come from more challenging beginnings are far better entrepreneurial employees. Um, and, and, and what, what my growth. In my businesses and in his business and beyond is in service of is to replicate that model. Give other kids like him, other young adults like him who just need a chance to those entrepreneurs who need someone with some street smarts and get shit done attitude. So that's where we're driving this whole thing.

Matt Haney:

love that. I love, love, love that. And I love the connection between hardship and entrepreneurship and, and understanding that because people came from a rough, a rough place in life and have gotten somewhere, their ability to influence people based on their successes and the mentorship they can provide to others is, infinite. truly incredible. Incredible.

Benjamin Berman:

Indeed. And I was just text, I was just telling my wife that I'm not gonna be any quieter for the next four minutes'cause we're on this.

Matt Haney:

Sorry, honey. I love you. I'll be there in a minute.

Thank you for listening to The Scalability Code. If you made it this far, please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get out of the sh*t show together. We'll see you next time on The Scalability Code.