Curing Visionary-Integrator Dysfunction (Stop Setting Your Team Up For FAILURE) | Chris Castillo

Are you setting up your top performers to fail by making them a manager? Or worse, is your lack of trust destroying the crucial Visionary-Integrator dynamic at the top of your business?

In this episode, Matt Haney sits down with Chris Castillo, a Certified EOS implementer who transformed his own struggling service businesses into scalable, self-managing successes. In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why promoting your best sales rep to manager is setting your team up to fail
• The root of Visionary-Integrator dysfunction and how the "Same Page" meeting fixes it
• Why the Accountability Chart is the best tool for exposing cancer in your business
• How to stop talking in circles and start making decisions
• Why you must never give a rock to an employee who can't swim
• Leading imperfect humans with the "one-word barometer" check-in

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Welcome
07:53 Pivot to EOS Implementer
10:32 Hardest Part About Managing People
16:43 Recurring Issues with Visionaries
21:25 EOS Tools
24:52 Visual Accountability
32:17 Words of Wisdom

Feeling stuck in your business?

It’s ok. We’ve all been there… You simply don’t have time for vision and growth. You feel frustrated, anxious, and stuck because goals aren’t being met, processes aren’t followed, and your team isn’t on the same page. Time after time, you’re putting out fires only fast enough for the next one to pop up.

Get OUT of the Sh*t Show 

Let’s build your team and guide them to the next level.

Transcript

Chris Castillo 0:00

They hired somebody that promised the world, and they got screwed over, and they're like, "Never mind, I'll do it myself." And that's their mantra from there, there on, and no one's gonna tell them any different because it's fine or it's working. but then they say, "I wish my business was here."

Speaker 0:16

Welcome to The Scalability Code, the podcast that helps you get out of the sh*t show and start growing your business. And now for your host, Matt Haney.

Matt Haney 0:25

Here we are again, folks. Welcome to another episode of The Scalability Code. Today, I'm joined by Chris Castillo up in the Dallas area. Chris, thanks for joining us, sir.

Chris Castillo 0:36

Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me on. It's always, uh, it's always fun to talk about business and hopefully helping people that listen to your show.

Matt Haney 0:42

There's no shortage of opportunities to talk about. Like, y- we-- you and I see 100 things we could spend hours on, so, we'll pick a few topics and, and jump in. So I like to start, it's a two-part question. First part question is, you know, think back in your journey as an entrepreneur, back when you had hair. Think about the days when you, when you were, uh, starting your early journey, or you, you were impressioned by some sort of a, an entrepreneur that said to you, "Wow," or, or that you read, "Hey, this, this is a really cool journey." and then the second part is more of like a narrative. Give us your story and, and where you got-- how you got to where you are today and a little bit about your backstory.

Chris Castillo 1:22

I really have to say my ex-wife, just from the standpoint of pushing me to start a service business and really understanding how to run a business, I didn't... I thought I knew, but I didn't know. You know, you don't know until you, you jump in and you realize you're doing all the things. You have to manage your time. You do, you do it poorly, you get the wrong clients, all the fun things about that. And then we worked together and had a great business, but working for yourself is, is one level, right? That's, you know, the first level of the game. But then w- having people that report to you and that you have influence on their lives is level 100, right? So there's so many things that you should learn before you have people, but most of the time it doesn't happen that way. It didn't for us, and we got, you know, EOS saved us from, really not doing well in the business. But it was, it's always a learning experience. You're buil- you're basically building the plane while you're flying it, right? Tho- tho- those kind of things. And really she, one of the, uh, mantras she had in our business was, uh, seeing what's possible. And being an entrepreneur, you're constantly doing that because it isn't always, "Yeah, let's just do this. It's fine." Like, "No, no, let's think about something different," or, "Let's not do it at all 'cause I think we can bypass this and be fine." And, you know, there's no, not necessarily any rules a lot of the time. You sort of make it up as you go along. you can learn it in business school, at the same time everything changes when you walk in the room with your, with your, your people or your clients and everything's not working well

Matt Haney 2:56

tell me about your path. Like, how did you get to entrepreneurship in the EOS implementer phase? But, like, let's go back and, and the second part of the question is kind of that narrative about where, where you started in your career and kind of how you are today and, and then that aha moment that, that told you, "Hey, being an implementer is kind of cool."

Chris Castillo 3:13

Yeah. Well, I mean, back in the day, I worked with my dad who was a butcher, and I learned the work ethic of showing up on time, doing great work, taking care of your client. And, you know, he set the bar of you get a job, you buy a house, you get married. That like, that's what you should be doing. And had a job at Hewlett-Packard for a long time, and I thought that was it. Everybody said you have the job for a lifetime right there, and that sort of changed in the late n-90s and 2000s. And really, as I mentioned before, the opportunity came up to start a service business, and I worked with customers before, and, but I was working for somebody. First chance for me to actually work for myself. So very exciting doing all the things, uh, and then you realize you need to get up every single day, rain or shine, and get this work done 'cause your clients depend on you. And worked really well. I sold it, and then, like I said, working with my ex-wife, uh, in our business, our coaching

Matt Haney 4:12

of business was it? You mentioned service, but tell us about

Chris Castillo 4:14

The service business was a, uh, service and repair business in Sacramento doing pools.

Matt Haney 4:19

Oh,

Chris Castillo 4:20

pool company because when we moved there, we looked on the street, all you saw was landscape trucks and pool trucks, and we're thinking, what a great way to learn how to run a business as an entrepreneur, to run a pool company 'cause you're doing all the things. Dealing with learning how to balance a pool and doing all the things to fix pool equipment, but also dealing with clients and setting the expectations. Give you an example. I went-- I realized over time that billing every month was just every month, a couple nights at the end of the month, I'm doing invoices and stuff. And I'm like, "Hey, I'm just gonna do it quarterly and save my life," because I had two small boys, so I get home, play with them. We have dinner. I have to go to the office and work for a few more hours, and I have to get up at 5:00 a.m. So it starts wearing on you. And so things like that, like taking time to think, "Hey, I could do this a little bit better." And I tell the clients, and they're like, "Fine. Just do it. It's perfect." And so with that experience, worked with, um, starting the, the, uh, life coach school, and with that it was fine because it was just the two of us. So we're working off each other. I realized she was a visionary. I realized I was the integrator. And it was fine till it got to the point that we needed to scale. Then we needed to have people. We couldn't do it in California. It was too hard to run a business there, too hard to get people, good people. Uh, moved to, to Dallas to scale the business, and then we were hiring people, and we realized we had no idea how to run a business with people, right? It's fine when it's- Two people going back and forth and figuring it out. Then it gets to the point of the scale where you're like, I need five more people to do the work that I've been doing the entire time. Hired people, realized we had no framework, no system, found traction, found EOS, and it allowed us to say, okay, let's just simplify the business and do this, this, and this. And then I replaced myself throughout the business and then sold my interest in 2019. And from that experience, during that time, I was working until 2 a.m., really struggling. You know, the business was just overtaking our lives. It got better with EOS.

Matt Haney 6:25

business, right?

Chris Castillo 6:26

Yeah, the coaching business. Yeah. Because, again, I learned from previous managers, and a lot of it was management by walking around, not really teaching them what to do, making sure they have everything they need to be successful, and then getting out of their way. I mostly got out of their way, and they weren't being successful. EOS helped clean all that up, and we realized that everybody was being autonomous, doing what they should be doing. And the people that weren't didn't stick around much because they realized what the culture and what the standards were. And then from that, I realized there was a lot of businesses that I worked with that were terrible. Like they wouldn't call back, wouldn't pay on time. You call somebody and they have no idea what's going on in the business. And I'm like, I think I can help people do a better job in their business, learn what I learned. And Tony Robbins said, he goes, my experience allows you to learn in days what it took me years. So I took that philosophy. I'm like, hey, let's take what I learned in EOS. I realized EOS has a training program to become an implementer. Hey, let's do that. It's easy. Transition over to that and help people get out of their way and become a great business owner and get what they want and not carry the burden of like, I need to work Saturdays because we're so busy or I'm not making money. I don't know what's going on or I'm losing money. I don't know what's going on. Things like that.

Matt Haney 7:53

So you started your EOS implementer journey in, did you say in 2019 or-ish? You--

Chris Castillo 7:58

2020, right? Yeah, I decided in February and then got trained in May. So in Texas, May, it was fine. But, you know, getting contact with people, trying to build a network was a challenge because when I moved here, I didn't have a network. And by that, when I started this, it was only three years in. So I really had to go build a network and start finding people that either knew people or needed help and using EOS to help them.

Matt Haney 8:23

so you mentioned, obviously I understand your business. You had a service-based business in California and, and then a service-based business in coaching, and now you're a service-based business owner delivering a service as an EOS implementer. do you see yourself or customers, clients attracted to you because of that service-based business background? And, and is there any overlap in some of the clients you see, on a regular basis? And the answer is EOS fits everyone, I know that, but there are people that end up having their own sort of track, if you will.

Chris Castillo 8:52

Yeah, there's, um... I have some manufacturing clients, 'cause I have manufacturing experience, and they s- and they link what you did in the past as being credible for what we need to work in the future. And the reality, like you mentioned, we can work with any company that has people, and I don't need to know your business, I just need to know EOS. And I'm there to teach you EOS, make you self-manage, and get, get out of your way. So people will get attracted or feel comfortable like, "Oh, you know, you ran a motorcycle distributorship. Okay, I know what you-- We can talk the same language." But my question always is, do you want somebody to commiserate with or consult on your business or to teach you EOS? Two different things.

Matt Haney 9:32

You can find those people to commiserate any day. Just go find a business owner. They'll tell you how bad it is.

Chris Castillo 9:37

Well, and some people don't know the difference between what implementers do and what consultants do. Um, and we tell them, we teach them the system of tools that makes them independent. We're not there to dig into their business. We're not there to be there forever. My job is to teach you a system and kick you out of the nest and help you fly, and ideally you'll get to beginning what you want by that point. And it's awesome for us 'cause we, we get to work with new clients all the time, and we get to see that trans- the transition from where they were to where they want to be, and sometimes it's less or more than that. They just don't know until they actually get there. But they can say, "You know, I was at five, we're at 20. I'm good. I'm good now. We're good. We're self-managed. We're running, we're running well. We're good. We got it covered." Then they can graduate. I can feel comfortable they know what they're doing. They will teach the next person up, and they will keep this going and keep their business simplified.

Matt Haney 10:32

I manage people for a living as a fractional integrator, surprise. I get to come in when there is a vacancy in the integrator seat, or a visionary is not quite determined what the next steps are, or an implementer says, "Hey, you should meet a fractional," because they're a great, you know, midpoint to, to getting to that next step. And through that, I, I haven't counted how many people I've managed in my career, but I've managed a lot of people. and they're-- You know, asking this next question, is always fascinating because everyone finds management of humans challenging But I do think that a lot of people see it differently. Some people have, "Oh, this is the hardest part," or, "That's the hardest part," or, "This is the hardest part." What, what do you see, like if-- a-a-again, your opinion, no wrong answer here. What's the hardest part you deal with or that you see, you know, recurring themes when it comes to managing people?

Chris Castillo 11:22

A lot of managers or leaders learn from their predecessors, which might not be the best way to learn. Uh, and they nev-

Matt Haney 11:30

conditions. They

Chris Castillo 11:31

Yes. They b-

Matt Haney 11:32

conditions.

Chris Castillo 11:33

They also don't have time to learn how to become a great manager. They are either elevated because they're a great individual contributor, and like, "Hey, you should manage people." Well, that sounds great 'cause it makes more money, but the responsibility is overwhelming, and you're taking them out of their sweet spot. They were great selling like crazy, now you're making them manage people that sell. That just seems, you know, counterintuitive. But, um, when we talk to teams all

Matt Haney 11:59

joke, I'm like, "We don't wanna take Tom Brady off the field and put him on the defensive line." That's so silly. It's like you're the best salesperson. Well, let's promote you out of being in sales. What?

Chris Castillo 12:09

Yes. And, um, and we talked before, almost every time that person gets elevated in, in the director or, uh, sales leader, they hate it. They have to leave after a year because they're not good at it. They inherited a mess. You took the best player off the team and put them in management, and the other pe- players are sort of struggling or they're jealous. That person has to leave the company now because they can't go backwards. They c- you know, because the s- the, um, the, you know, the people, what people think, all that. So are they, are you really putting them in the best position? But like we mentioned before, to get a great sales leader, they want a p- person that has great sales track record, things like that. There is a huge difference between a individual contributor and, um, people that love to lead. It's, you know, you just, you can see it, you can feel it. Um, and again, most times management or ownership brings somebody in and the, the seat isn't very clear on the roles. They're probably doing too much, having too many people to manage. They are too busy trying to be in the business that they can never take time out to look at working on the business. That's what a good leader does.

Matt Haney 13:22

Chris, if I, I use that reference, oh my gosh, 10 times a, 10 times a month. You're in it too much. You're in it, you're in it. You can't step up to work on it, and if you can't do that, you're just constantly going to be task-focused and not... You know, the, the task and delivery, you've gotta do both.

Chris Castillo 13:38

the philosophy is that you can't be, you can't be a great player and a great coach. It's one or the other. Different views, different preparation. And a coach prepares differently for a big game than a player does, and that's for a reason. So what is your... And there's a, a balance here The leader has to have his time off to regenerate, to be healthy, to, you know, make this a healthy, sustainable growth. But the time to actually learn and not say, "Well, just stay busy and keep everybody working, and it'll all work out," right? There's no, there's no framework, no measurables,

Matt Haney 14:15

a client this week, uh, or we've been talking for a couple weeks, and, he runs a small business. He does have a team. they're in real estate investing. They, they buy strip centers, they lease them up, and then they, they resell them at a profit once they're leased up. But it, it's very lean team, and their, their revenue is lumpy, right? If they don't have properties under management, they don't make a management fee. But when they sell those properties, they've got a big upside because they get the appreciation. And the whole reason I'm telling you this is because it's like o- one of the things that I kept struggling with the guy is like he just wants to shove tasks down to a certain set of people, but there's nobody... It's a very flat organization. You have the visionary at the top and a bunch of doers. And we're talking about the need to have an integrator because the business is out scaling his ability to manage these people, and he will clearly tell you that his best skill is on the deal. Get the deal, lease it up, do the deal. He's like, "All that other stuff, I don't really do it." And I'm saying, "Well, then you are..." Obviously, he's actively thinking about an integrator or he wouldn't be having a conversation with me. But changing that mindset from you need someone to manage the people versus an individual contributor, and yeah, there's a little bit of it, but I will tell you, I am not best as an individual contributor. I think I'm exceptional at managing a team and, and keeping everyone together and f- and removing roadblocks and helping get to the next level. I think that's my gift. If someone said to me, "Hey, I need you to sit down and, and focus on a 26-page paper that's your own thoughts, and you've got to start with a blank page," I'd be like, "Ooh, that's the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. What do I do?" But if I could get a group of people together, w- I could get that 26-page paper done with, with thought leadership in a, in a mere period of time. It's interesting you say that because, um, I, I have thought of a lot of good players who became coaches, but there are a lot of coaches that have never played the game

Chris Castillo 16:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Haney 16:04

because they know how to keep the team together, and they've got individual subject matter experts that can teach a specialty, but they need that cohesive unit to, to run. That's really, really cool. so recurring issues I always touch on, uh, uh, because you as an implementer, are always seeing visionaries and leadership teams.

matt-haney_2_02-06-2025_192447 16:23

You are listening to the Scalability Code. I'm your host, Matt Haney, founder of Sinclair Ventures, and we help visionary entrepreneurs like you get out of the shit show and focus on growing your business. We offer fractional COO and leadership coaching services that free up that brain of yours to focus on what's next. Learn more about us at SinclairVentures. com. Now back to it.

Matt Haney 16:43

any recurring issues that you come across with visionary founders, and I say any, I know the answer. There are recurring issues, but any of them that you think you coach more frequently than not, or ones that you just like to solve?

Chris Castillo 16:57

what comes up more times than not is the visionary integrator not being on the same page. They don't have same-page meetings Or if they do, they're not really getting to the root issue of what's going on, and they just sort of become... They, they are like, they get to a consensus, and it just kinda keeps building because the visionary integrator relationship is the key to the leadership team being successful. Because they are, as they go, so goes the leadership team. As the leadership team goes, so goes the company. So if your visionary integrator aren't seen as being on the same page and united, then you're gonna get division with your leadership team and everybody below that. And there's gotta be a balance. As a, you know, f- experience being with a visionary, you have to work out h- what works for you. What I heard when I started, for every four visionaries, there was only one capable integrator. I don't know if that's still true today, but I've heard a lot of v- visionaries still not finding their integrator, whatever, whoever that is. But the idea is...

Matt Haney 18:01

do you think has to do with the visionary's lack of interest in being held accountable?

Chris Castillo 18:07

that and a lack of trust. There's a trust issue. There's trauma in the past. They hired somebody that promised the world, and they got screwed over, and they're like, "Never mind, I'll do it myself." And that's their mantra from there, there on, and no one's gonna tell them any different because it's fine or it's working. Uh, but then they say, "I wish my business was here." But they can't get there until they get that person in place, so they have to be able to let go of the vine, open up, learn how to trust again because we have processes to help you get the right integrator in place. Um, but there's no guarantees about anybody in your business. You think they're 100% perfect. I've seen numerous people said their resume is amazing, they were great in the interview, and they just failed. Like, yeah, but you weren't looking in the right place or asking the right questions. But we, we see trust as being the foundation of dys- lack of trust, foundation of dysfunction in leadership team.

Matt Haney 19:06

100%. I've stepped into 15 different businesses as a fractional integrator, and establishing that trust early on is very, very, very instrumental. And I'll tell you my experience there is most of these visionary owners want someone that's gonna talk straight to them. They are so used to having yes ma'am and yes man in the business that it's a, "Oh, yes, yes, yes. We'll, we'll do that. We'll do that." Well, that's

Chris Castillo 19:30

get right on that. Yeah.

Matt Haney 19:32

The business needs someone to say, "Great point, Mr. or Ms. Visionary. All of your ideas are fabulous," till they're not. "Let's go, let's go flush them out and come back to you with a plan." And then to your point, Chris, come back with a plan. Like, deliver what you say you're gonna deliver on and encourage the team to do so And you'd be amazed at how much trust and credibility you get when you're simply closing the loop with somebody. Because I, I always say with my visionaries, they roll over at 2:00 AM and think about something. They are gonna think about it. We just need to have a place for them to insert their thoughts, and then we owe them a response just they-- as they owe us in a response as if we're working together.

Chris Castillo 20:11

Yeah, and that's just having a conversation, and you mentioned plan. If we have a pl- Wouldn't it be great if we had a plan for the year and for the quarter, and we can measure our success?

Matt Haney 20:22

Yep.

Chris Castillo 20:23

if we had that, then anything else could be a distraction or maybe an improvement. So with my ex-wife, what I, what the deal was that we had, she had lots of ideas all the time. So I said, "Here's the deal. You have an idea, we will match it against the plan. If it makes the plan simpler and better, then it makes sense. If it's a distraction or we can wait till next quarter, then I'll say not right now." Because our job as leaders to help our people execute, to make it simple and easier. If we're trying to complicate it, then we're doing it the wrong way. You know, we're going in the wrong direction. So very simple. Does it make it easier and simpler to do their job, yes or no? If it doesn't, why are we even thinking about it? Why... And is it part of the plan, yes or no? So those are great questions that integrator can come back with because, as you know, a visionary thinks of things in five seconds, but it takes five weeks to fix, right?

Matt Haney 21:18

Oh, yes. Yes. Or six weeks or seven weeks to undo the damage they did by acting so quickly. you tried to segue to it, but I'm gonna segue to it for you. Um, EOS tools, everyone has, favorites, as much as we're not supposed to, but I, I do think that there are implementers and there are integrators that are better at some tools than others. I guess everyone would be to a certain extent. my personal favorite, is rollout and getting the, the tool down to the bottom. I love seeing that aha moment, uh, at the, you know, at the ground level instead of the mid-management level. but what do you think, you know, and that's just an example of something, but obviously there's a bunch of others. What, what do you think you either enjoy teaching or you're best at teaching?

Chris Castillo 22:01

as we work with clients, the first day is the, you know, foundational tools. if that is not clear and a- a- ability for them to learn it and learn how to master those tools, rollout is ineffective. Um, or they piecemeal it and they're like, "Yeah, we're gonna roll out level tens." I'm like, "What about rocks? What about scorecard?" You know, you're missing, you're still in second gear of this Corvette. You need to think of all these things. So we realize we have to introduce the tool, teach them the tool, and come back to it over and over again. Accountability chart is probably the hardest. Scorecard's hard But, you know, it's about re- it's about, you know, actions and, and results. Accountability charts talks about people in, you know, seats, and getting them to, A, look in the future, forget the past, think about the structure first, people second, and be able to make a decision when they know so and so is not a good fit culturally, and they may have... Maybe they're killing it and hitting their numbers, but they're just a cancer in the company, or they're not doing their work and, and somebody's making up for it, which is a, a travesty, because now two people are doing one job and doing it poorly. So being able to put it out on the board and visualize, it's amazing when the team thinks they have every- they know what's going on in the business, and they all are not even close. "Well, that person should be doing this." "No, that's over here." "Well, why isn't it over..." You know. That's why we do it, to get everybody on the same page and into agreement. But accountability chart sets the structure for the organization. Everything revolves off that. Who does what, who reports to who, what process needs to be documented, and who needs to own it. Everything comes from the structure, and then from there we can level 10, scorecard, rocks. 'Cause if somebody doesn't know their seat and what they do, need to do to be successful, they're not doing it very well, you don't give them a rock. Because they're not... They have to be able to have f- free up their time to do their job really well and be able to take time during the week and work on their rock, right? Uh, we s- we... One of the things we say, we don't give a rock to somebody that can't swim, because people need time to work on a rock, and you can't just force it down somebody's throat if the team isn't ready. but again, accountability chart, talking about level 10 meetings, scorecard, all the things on the first day so that we can get them, these are the things you focus on. These are the things that matter. And when change happens, somebody leaves or somebody needs to be hired, we always go back to the accountability chart, and that is the first thing we look at because that, that are... Those are the people that will help ex- help us cr- execute our vision, along with the plan. If we don't have the right people here, nothing down the stream's gonna happen.

Matt Haney 24:52

That's exactly right. one of the things, I don't know what just made me think about this. Well, it was the accountability chart that, that, that triggered this for me. I think there's so many things with, EOS that I love, but I, I use the term visual accountability. I, I feel like, you know, using the framework and particularly using the framework and the many softwares that are out there, it puts this visualization behind accountability. And if I'm having a level 10 meeting with you, Chris, and I'm behind on my rock, and if I'm honest to myself and I select that it's off track Because I know someone's gonna ask me, "Oh, you're on track with it. What's that mean? When's it, you know, ooh." So I always encourage leaders and, and, and team members to be honest with themselves and open about whether something is on track or off track, and use that visual accountability during the meetings to ask for help. Uh, and to just say, "Look, I, I'm not perfect. I'm not-- I'm busy doing these 18 other things. That's why I can't get to this one." And, um, anyway, it's, it's fantastic to, to, uh, to use that term, I think, visual accountability because it's not, it's not meant to just bang you on the head when you're not doing it. Um, it's just, uh, meant to be a way for you to be vulnerable and honest that you're not on track.

Chris Castillo 26:02

Well, uh, and even, even more so, it gives a chance for that person and the team to help them. Your level 10 meeting as a leadership team is the most important meeting of your week. It gets everyone on the same page, and if I'm off track... "Oh, last week I was sick. I'll get back on this." It's not an issue. I'm off track because this, this, and this. Then as a team, you can help, so you can say, "How can we help you get back on track?" Or start looking at, as the integrator, what's really going on here?

Matt Haney 26:36

Right. What's

Chris Castillo 26:36

What's going on? Maybe it's a separate discussion. Maybe something's going on at home. I've... Shocked is not a word. I've been amazed by how many leaders jump to conclusions before they have a conversation, and they're like, "This person

Matt Haney 26:50

in their mind something that's a narrative and not, not, not based in anything.

Chris Castillo 26:54

Yeah. They, they saw something, felt so... It, it actually happened. I talked to somebody, they're like, "My, uh, sales leader..." No, ops leader. "Ops leader was not performing very well." I'm like, "When's the last time you talked to them?" "Well, during the level 10 meeting." I go, "No, personally. When's the last time you took a walk with them and asked how they're doing, what's going on?" Um, "I haven't." I'm like, "I think you need to do, you need to do that before you make a decision because you're building up all this evidence that they're not doing their job because of whatever, when their spouse could be sick, their kid could be sick, something. It doesn't matter. Whatever it is outside of work," 'cause I found a lot of the issues holding a, a person back being exceptional, a lot of times it's outside of work. Sometimes it's other people at work or maybe they're in the wrong seat, whatever, but I, I see a lot of it being external and they put on game face and they do their best and sometimes they just, you know, come up short and the team needs to be open and honest and say, "How can we help you? And also stop hiding this from us because we're a team and, you know, we, we win together and we struggle together. So now is the time to help you in the sixth week of the quarter, not the 13th."

Matt Haney 28:06

I feel like, some of the best leaders that I've ever worked with alongside for, beneath, above, whatever, had a human component to their management style. and they chose to engage further than just, "Here you are on your objective list of things that you need to do to be a, a good doer," instead of, understanding what's happening outside of work or... You know, we have a segue for a meeting, change up my segues very regularly 'cause I lead several L10s a week and love to come up with something unique and, I, I go back to favorite travel memories as a child. I go back to music that you loved when you listened to with your parents or things that humanize the element of, of, of conversation around leadership. And that those things come back full circle when you're having an L10 or a, or a same page with someone or your quarterly conversation. Just a way to disarm the conversation and have it be understanding, you know, what you may or may not be going through that affect th- who you show up, uh, uh, who, who the person that shows up at work.

Chris Castillo 29:09

Yeah. And you can see that if a leader or manager is so busy in the business, they don't have that conversation. It's more like, "Let's check the box and talk about facts and let's move on because I got stuff to do." Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Um, one thing I like to ask a team before I start a session, I'm like, "Give me your one-word barometer. Tell me the kind of person I'm getting today. Like, where are you at?" Um, and I'm trying to get them to think inwardly rather than just show up and like, "I'm good." I'm like, "No, no, I need something more specific like I'm stressed." Huh. I'm gonna mark that down because that's gonna be useful later. It's gonna probably lead your, lead your tone the rest of the time together. But if I can get there, give me-- you know, what version of you am I gonna get today? What, what's in the room today? And it's a lot of times, obviously the first time can be a little awkward, but it gets better, and they start being able to say, "You know what? Um, I'm exhausted." And you can tell.

Matt Haney 30:08

a client that I've worked with twice, um, a family jewelry business based in Peoria, Illinois. Shout out to Jones Bros Jewelers and my friend Bob Woolsey. Bob, uh, worked on EOS for years, turned into an EOS implementer, is still a, a friend and colleague, and he started every one of his meetings with, um, an energy, focus, and gratitude rating. And you would have to rate yourself based on your energy, your focus, and your gratitude. And I thought it was such a great way of creating vulnerability, but also honesty. If I had a shitty d- night last night and I was up with a dog who was sick or a baby that was crying, my energy, focus, and gratitude today probably aren't going to be At a 10 out of 10. But if I can share that with you during that meeting, it doesn't give me permission to slack off, but it is gonna give you and the others in the leadership team meeting an understanding of the fact that I'm not firing on all cylinders today. Give me a little bit of grace, just as I would if you showed up with a less than 10 out of 10 rating.

Chris Castillo 31:11

Yeah. Yep. And you've had it before, right? I just had this with a, a team that came in. Um, one of the team members was late, and you can tell he was visibly exhausted. So either something happened the night before, and it took him half the day to get back into the groove of things. Once he did, it was fine. but as a, as an implementer, we start looking d- beyond that. I'm like, "Why didn't they hold this time sacred? They're paying for us to get together again. It's, you know, what's going on with it?" And, or what else is going on, and do I have a relationship with them to ask that, or will the visionary find out later, right? Because we're not just talking about results and scorecard. We're like, what's going on underneath that keeps people showing up? Why they, why it matters to them? that's what's going on. You're managing imperfect humans, and we have to ask those questions. Be able, as a leader, be able to know a little bit about our people without obviously getting too close. But just know enough of them so we can, help them when they need somebody to talk to or just, be gr- give them grace when they need grace.

Matt Haney 32:16

That's awesome. All right. Last, I want to wrap up with this, uh, and this is a bit of a, a tough one, so if you need a minute to think about it, please do. But, there's times, uh, in life you get a solid piece of advice, and it sticks with you. Hopefully, it sticks with you. Sometimes they don't always stick with me. I need to write them down or tattoo them on my arm. But think back and see if there's any, uh, any po- positive or, or sound words of wisdom you've received and, or maybe someone that had a, a solid impact on you, personal or

Chris Castillo 32:45

when I am con- when I am, uh, conflicted about something and I am overthinking it, uh, making up stories, I realize, I ask the question, "What's a simple solution here? What's the simple solve?" And usually that is the right one we'll make up stories, we'll think of things that aren't necessarily true or might not happen, rather than say, "You know what? I'm just gonna do this and it's gonna be good, and we'll move on. It's gonna be good enough for right now." because we can get stuck overthinking. And as a high fact finder, if I'm really emotional about something, I might spend that time doing it, when it's like, okay, take a walk and think about, you know what? This is not as bad as I thought it is. Let's just keep it simple, make a decision, either do something or don't do something, and then move on from there. And some- most of the time, um, sometimes it, it, you know, it needs more attention, but most of the time it wasn't as big as you thought and it just gets solved and you can move on. My favorite is overthinking what my client would be doing coming into the session, and none of that ever happened. 'Cause I was guessing. I'm like, no, no, just keep it simple, follow the f-follow the, uh, the format that we, we designed, follow the things we do every single time, and then read the room. And then the opposite actually happened. They did a great time. They all worked well together. There was no drama, and I was worried about drama. But it... That's the kind of stuff of like, no, no, let's clear all that out. What's a simple solver? Let's just do

Matt Haney 34:14

there's an

Chris Castillo 34:15

be fine.

Matt Haney 34:15

and it's KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.

Chris Castillo 34:20

Yeah.

Matt Haney 34:22

It's like don't over-index, don't over-- don't make this harder. It's such a s-- It's, it's so funny you say that. I get... It's like, m- I find myself there all the time, which is why are we creating this? It's such an easier solve, and I think that's where outside perspective from implementers and, and fractional integrators helps.

Chris Castillo 34:39

as an integrator, you probably see the answer before everybody else, and sometimes you're hoping that they will talk themselves to that solution and not just talk around the issue over and over again, and you're like, "No, no, no. It's over here. It's been here the whole time." Like, you know, j- you start seeing how you can help them decide more quickly and not talk just to talk, right?

Matt Haney 35:00

it's a fine line of letting them come to the conclusion versus giving them the answer, and sometimes you gotta give them the answer, and sometimes you gotta let the conversation happen and let them come to the conclusion.

Chris Castillo 35:10

Yeah. I find it easy to write. If I f- see that they're talking in circles or talking to talk, I'll write down what they're saying, and you'll see they're saying a lot of things over and over again, not even close to the solution, and then they're like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "This is what you're

Matt Haney 35:24

I'm writing all the garbage you're spitting out. That's

Chris Castillo 35:27

Because people f- they throw it out there and forget it, but if you're just like, "Hold on." My... That's my favorite. Everybody stops, I'm like, "What are you doing? You said that 16 times. What are you trying to... Why is this important when the solution's way over here, isn't it?" And they're like, "Oh, yeah." Right? What's going on there?

Matt Haney 35:43

Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoy our chat. As always, it's great to get to know you. I look forward to seeing you more when I'm up in Dallas, uh, at either one of the We Run on EOS days, or maybe we can have lunch when I'm visiting one of the clients. But it's my pleasure to host you today on The Scalability Code. Thank you for your time, Chris.

Chris Castillo 36:00

Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. It's always fun to, uh, talk and just, um, learn from each other

36:05

Thank you for listening to The Scalability Code. If you made it this far, please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get out of the sh*t show together. We'll see you next time on The Scalability Code.