Praxis
The podcast where practice makes purpose…
Praxis
The Practice of…Ethical Non-Monogamy (with Jonah)
Jonah shares his nine-year journey with ethical non-monogamy, revealing how it's deepened his understanding of himself and transformed his approach to relationships. He explores his "Three Pillars" framework—communication, trust, and respect—that forms the foundation for healthy connections both in his primary partnership and beyond. In this episode we discuss how:
• Ethical non-monogamy began as a three-month experiment with a long-term partner after realizing he hadn't fully explored his sexuality
• The "Three Pillars" framework (communication, trust, respect) provides the foundation for navigating complex emotional territory
• Challenging inherited beliefs about relationships creates space for personal growth and self-discovery
• Setting clear boundaries ensures connections with others remain nourishing rather than threatening to primary partnerships
• The importance of vulnerability and self-reflection when navigating jealousy and other normal human emotions
• How ethical non-monogamy has changed from stigmatized to increasingly normalized, especially in queer communities.
Welcome to Praxis, the podcast where practice makes purpose. I'm Mikey and I'll be interviewing people about the practices that reveal and create purpose in their lives. Hi everyone, thank you for choosing to listen to this episode of Praxis. It's been quite a while since I've recorded an episode. I had a few weeks off work and I was quite low in energy, so I just didn't record one. But I'm back into the swing of things and this is my third interview. I was really honored to have my really really good friend, jonah, on to talk about his practice of ethical non monogamy, which was a fascinating discussion about something I don't know that much about really, and, yeah, I hope you enjoy it. Obviously, with the topic, be prepared for some mature themes, the occasional swearing, but I'm sure you'll manage. So thank you very much for listening and enjoy the episode. Jonah, thank you very much for joining me on this episode of Praxis.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. It's good to see you.
Speaker 1:No, my pleasure. So we're going to be discussing your practice of ethical non-monogamy and you said in your pre-interview questionnaire that you started this about nine years ago. That's when your interest first started, correct? What sparked that interest? Do you mind telling me?
Speaker 2:So I had been in a very long-term relationship with my lovely ex um. We got together very young I would have been, I think, around 20 at the time and, to be honest with you, I hadn't really done a lot of sort of experimentation of what I truly wanted from relationships, what I truly wanted from my own expression of sexuality, and I felt like I kind of just fell into this really wonderful loving relationship with the man. But after a good seven or so years felt, like I guess, curious about what life could be like and started to question not just for myself but also with him, I guess the art of the possible. So I remember the day quite clearly. We were sitting on our couch in our lovely house with our dog in Melbourne at the time and we saw a TV show that had a polyamorous couple on it well, throuple on it. And I said to him you know, do you think that you could ever be in a throuple with someone? And he said, oh, not really, I don't think it's for me. And I said, no, I don't think it's for me either, but I guess it'd be interesting to know what it would be like to be with other people.
Speaker 2:Bear in mind that this was so many years ago now, um, and back at a time where I don't even think I came across the term ethically non-monogamous, I didn't really know what it was.
Speaker 2:Um, but there was all of this discussion and stigma, particularly in the queer community, about open relationships and what they sort of entailed, so that that sparked, I guess, a series of other conversations about what open relationships are, what non-monogamy is and how you do it ethically.
Speaker 2:And we eventually, after a few sort of months of, you know, sitting with our feelings and working through how it could sort of be applied in practice, agreed that we would try opening it up for three months and see how we felt about it. And it's a decision I certainly don't regret, because now, living a life where I've been ethically non-monogamous for however many years through a number of different partners, I feel like it's taught me so much more about myself. It's taught me more about how I relate to others and relate to the world, and I think in in a way, it's kind of like a nice way to express my um, queer freedom and to sort of like put that love out there, literally and figuratively, um, and, I guess, challenge a lot of the status quo around what a healthy relationship is, what respectful boundaries are, and I guess how to express that in different ways.
Speaker 1:I mean, even in just your little introduction, then you've hit so many points that I want to talk about. One of the things that you mentioned is about the stigma from the queer community when you first started this nine, 10 years ago and we can talk about stigma later on, but I think, certainly amongst my group of friends, I think, ethical non-monogamy is almost the norm, as opposed to the exception now, which I think is really interesting.
Speaker 2:Um, when you first decided to explore, uh, ethical non-monogamy for those three months, what were the initial kind of this is no pun intended what were the sticky points around opening up again, there's going to be lots of puns in this, I think, but um, yeah, what were the kind of sticky, difficult areas around first exploring enm yeah, I think I mean it's a really good question, um, and honestly it's sort of testing my memory, but I know that we started all of our conversations with um with like a baseline, fundamental view that we wouldn't want to do anything that would hurt the other person or that would sort of jeopardize our future together, and so we sort of pinned it all down and I guess what we agreed would be the sort of way that we continue to relate to each other would be to sort of place ourselves on top of these three pillars of communication being probably the most important thing, the next being trust and recognizing that that's something that we've earned, we've shared with each other for many years. And then the third one was about respect, and all of those had sticky points. Like I won't lie, being someone who was in a monogamous relationship for however many years at that point and then going into something that was quite different did bring up quite a lot of things in those areas. So if I just take them one by one, I think for communication it was. I mean, it's not easy, when you love someone so much, to talk about your desires with other people because your fear is that it somehow takes something from them or makes them feel inadequate or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:But, um, we worked a lot on the communication point to begin with and started to um sort of explore ways that we could have those feelings and feel comfortable sharing those feelings, but in a way that wasn't sort of perceived as threatening to the sort of connection that we had, because jealousy is real, it's always going to be there and communication is the sort of best tool that you can use to overcome it and unpack it. And just on that communication point, I think through communication, through lots of discussions about sort of what we would be comfortable with and wouldn't be comfortable with, we learned that it's really important to understand what assures you and what makes you feel safe and secure in a relationship and to communicate that with the other person. And so that was probably the first sticking point, because, again, it's not very easy. I think that second point about trust wasn't necessarily something that we had to work on anymore because it was already there, but I guess it was just calling out that that is like such a fundamental principle to any sort of healthy adult relationship, and only by breaking down the and only by breaking down the communication and by breaking down the respect would that trust be threatened. So we sort of parked that there and, and you know, we'd had many years working on our trust with each other for that not to be an issue at all. The third point about um respect was also quite a tricky one to navigate because if you haven't been in a sort of ethically non-monogamous relationship before, I really think that a lot of it is kind of touching and feeling what you're comfortable with and what feels respectful for you and what feels respectful for you as a unit. So we had to do quite a bit of trial and error when it came to understanding people's comfort level and the level of respect that would be involved in you know, trying to, you know get with another partner in front of you, how to be respectful of each other's time, how to be respectful of each other's sexual desires with each other and keep that as the sort of like heart flame of our relationship, sort of like heart flame of our relationship.
Speaker 2:And I remember quite like I think, because we spent so long focusing on what the could-bes are, most of our sort of early hiccups weren't actually that bad and it got to a point where by the time we actually put it to practice.
Speaker 2:I remember the first time very clearly I was sitting at home on the couch and I was too scared to go out for the to be the first one to hook up with someone else, cause I hadn't, you know, shagged anyone for however many years seven, eight years, um aside from him.
Speaker 2:And he went out for a hookup first Cause I'm like you've got to be the brave one, you've got to go do it and I'll be here at the end of the night and we can unpack it and stuff like that. And I remember being really excited and nervous for him when he left. And then a few weeks later, when I finally sort of made peace with it and thought, all right, just bite the bullet and give it a go, because you know this is important to you, he was saying that he felt the exact same way and I think again, that's because we'd spent so long focusing on building those strong foundations of what any whether it's monogamous or not, not any sort of healthy relationship would be like. So all of our wobbles were quite easy to navigate in that, in that partnership that I had again.
Speaker 1:You just hit on so many things that I want to talk about. I mean, I love that you've come up with your own framework of those, those three pillars of communication, trust and respect. I find it interesting that most people would associate those inherently with monogamy. So you know, you respect your other partner by not shagging around, you trust that your partner is not going to quote unquote cheat on you. And you've actually flipped it and related them to ethical non-monogamy. I just think that's really fascinating and I love that you were both kind of not willing to be the first one to take the plunge, like, but you're both excited you know, um, I think it's called compersion, which is like the opposite of jealousy, where you derive happiness from someone else's happiness.
Speaker 1:Um, it's just, yes, find it absolutely fascinating, um, so I want to kind of take it back to just before you explored ethical non-monogamy, or you're on the cusp of it, um, and I'm really big into the, the hero's journey and that sort of cycle, and I want to go back to before you were ethically non-monogamous. What beliefs and ideas do you think you've inherited? What assumptions have you inherited about monogamy and non-monogamy, and how has that impacted your relationships? Maybe currently, maybe your previous relationship? Maybe inherited beliefs from your parents, from wider culture, from your friends? Could you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean it's so. It's so weird reflecting on it because, you know, we we touched on stigma and and sort of these, I guess like so, so what we consider socially acceptable views about relationships, and at the time I was one of the people that's like oh, an open relationship? Like why are they not satisfied where they are? Like isn't that just cheating? Blah, blah, blah. And I definitely inherited a lot of that and I feel like I feel like a lot of it was about exposure, because you don't really see other ways that relationships can work. Um, you know, and at the time I was very young, like by the time I opened up I would have been like 27 and you know that's old enough to know what a healthy relationship is like and isn't. And I think by then I realized that I mean there's parallels with your queer story, right, there's parallels with all of these intersectional bits. But you realize that the sort of narrative that we're fed and what we consider, again, socially acceptable doesn't always serve our greatest purpose.
Speaker 2:And I guess there's another part of me that's always been, not in a morbid way, but incredibly aware of my mortality, like I'm very aware of it, and I got to a mindset where I'm like why would I deny myself like an experience of joy and pleasure and fun and all of these sorts of things, um, if I know that no one's going to be harmed in the process? Um, and that's like part of my life story and I would want that for any other person and it's kind of not my place to feel. This is my view and I've got nothing against monogamy at all, but it's in my view that I don't feel like I have a place or I don't feel like you withholding all of these different experiences that you might want to have with other people is any threat to my relationship and connection with you. And I feel like, over the many years now that I've been non-monogamous, that's something that's sort of really rested within me, which is why I also get really cross when people have something negative to say about open relationships or feel like it's basically cheating or whatever, cause I'm just like it's actually got nothing to do with.
Speaker 2:It's got nothing to do with that. It's actually just about both of us recognizing that we're the steady flame. But if you want to go and have some fun, then go and do that, because it's your life and you choose to have me in it and I'm so grateful for that. You know I choose to be in your life, but I'm not going to try to limit it in any way, because it's no measure of the love that I have for you and vice versa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean I could easily critique monogamy for its many failings, and you know how many monogamous marriages end in divorce and how many monogamous relationships end because one partner's cheated on the other. So you know.
Speaker 2:And those things can still happen in non-monogamous.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:In non-monogamous like believe youmonogamous, like believe you me. Like you know, I'm not with that partner anymore for a reason. Um, lots of love there, lots of love there, but again it wasn't. Again a lot of assumptions about, um, you know, the open relationship being the beginning of the end, and all that because we were together for maybe two or three years. After it's like no, no, no, it was the foundations of any healthy relationship that fell down there, like communication and trust, and respect.
Speaker 1:If those three, if those three pillars aren't there, regardless of your um relationship framework, then it's it's bound to fail, isn't it? I suppose, um, it's really interesting to talk about the narratives that we're fed as queer people. Growing up, and when I was a teenager, um, in the 90s and 2000s, one of the messages that I received about what it's like to be a queer man, a gay man, was this idea of promiscuity, of not having a stable partner and having, like, a party lifestyle that's going to end in, you know, dying of aids. When I'm 30, like, and that was that was something I genuinely believed for a long time was going to happen to me, um, and it actually made me quite afraid of engaging in in sexual relationships with people for a long time.
Speaker 1:Um, due to those, those fears, and I think people associate multiple partners with a lack of emotional connection, whereas actually, in Ethical, non-monogamy, you are exploring your ability to hold multiple loving relationships with different people. Okay, you're not having multiple, necessarily primary partners, you're not in a thruple. You're not engaging in polyamory as such, but again, I quite like the script being flipped that, okay, you are having sex with multiple people, but there is genuine connection there. It's not. I don't want to use the word promiscuous because I think that's a loaded term, but it's not. What's it like for empty or lacking in feelings it's not without, it's not without its own meaning.
Speaker 2:I think it's and it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not flippant or ill-considered intentional and there's nothing wrong with flippant and ill-considered sexual connections, you know, go for gold but I just don't think that, um, again in the, in those pillars, it's like if I engaged in any activity like that, or if my partner's engaged in any activity like that, then to me that's a wobbling of the steady foundation and, um, that's something that's quite important to me.
Speaker 2:It's, and it's the way that open relationships work is so different because every person's different and you know part of me. I understand why we've got all this, these language binaries around polyamory, open relationships, throuples, all that sort of stuff. I get that, but in my experience, which I know is limited I've only been at it for however many years 10 years or whatever but in my experience it's so different depending on the two people that are in your core, like heart, flame, relationship, because, of course, you're all. You're going to have your different comfort levels. You're going to have your different reactions to there's very human and normal things around jealousy and desire, um, and you're also going to need to be affirmed in different ways, like you know, and that's part of the human experience and something that, yeah, has really sort of helped me reflect on what I actually want in a healthy partnership and I would like to say that's something that most people in an open relationship would have in common.
Speaker 1:Lovely, and you've used the phrase heart flame a few times. Would you mind just quickly explaining what you mean by that a few times would?
Speaker 2:you mind just quickly explaining what you mean by that. Yeah, I'm a very visual person and I um sort of I. For me it's like I use terms heart, flame and train track a lot, but if I think of um, my, so I've had I've only believe it or not had three boyfriends in my life, um. First one was my husband, um, and then I had another partner, um, and we were technically open but we never got to a point where we had enough sort of trust and good communication that we acted on it, which is its own point of reflection. But we were together for a good I don't know seven or eight months or something like that. And then I've got my current partner, who is obviously the love of my life, obsessed with. He is pretty wonderful.
Speaker 2:The feeling that, yeah, the feeling that um that he invokes in me is like a burning heart thing, and I think together we like stoke that fire to keep it burning.
Speaker 2:So we keep feeding it the positive communication acts that bring trust, um.
Speaker 2:You know, we constantly talk about what's respectful and we uphold each other and lift each other up and try to sort of amplify the best qualities of each other, and to me that's, that's the solid part of our relationship, which is why him, you know, going off and shagging someone or whatever it may be, is literally no threat to that, because we spend so much of our time stoking that, that flame of love and connection and the work that goes into that, that none of that scares me or worries me. And then I like train tracks as well, just because I think it's a another. It's a fun one that comes up in my head. But I think of me and my partner now and we're like on our own train track. But if he wants to go off on a little detour and see a scene in crude, or I want to go off on a little detour, they're like, you know, go for gold. I'm like we'll still end up on the same line. And, you know, fill your boots.
Speaker 1:And you can go at your own speed. So you know, sometimes you want to go faster.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:I love that analogy. I think that's great. Exactly, you mentioned in your kind of pre-interview questionnaire about your relationships with others other than your primary partner being nourishing, and I want to know what kind of boundaries or rules or agreements have you put in place so that those relationships are nourishing for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think this is something that, for me, has come with practice. So, I mean, we've spoken a lot about my connection with my main partner, my heart flame, and that's, you know, its own thing. But I think with other people, the most important boundary for me is for them to understand where I'm at. So I'm always 100, 100, like you know, the minute someone meets me. Everyone's got this open assumption that, because I'm in an open relationship, I just want to, like you know, jump on a D at any given opportunity, when actually the first thing that I will probably do is gush about my heart flame because I'm just so obsessed with him and he's just such a wonderful person. Um, and then the next thing that I'll make clear is that that, um, if we were to even this is even before I even think about giving them, like you know, a flirty glance or like kissing them or whatever I will always make it clear that I'm in a relationship, that that's the most important thing in my life and that if we're going to have our own connection, it needs to sort of stay, it needs to sort of be that way. So, um, some of the sort of boundaries that I've put in place around me. Again, they kind of aside from those solid pillars and what, what I've agreed with my partner about what's safe and what's not, I kind of have to feel it to like sort of go with my feelings, depending on the person. So there might be someone that I come across that I can comfortably have like a single. Like you know, just shag them once and it'll be a great fun thing. And then, like you know, again I've made it clear that I'm in a relationship and at the end of it, when we're done, I'm like that was really great, nice to get to know you, and then we don't really sort of have any connections beyond that. But I look back on it fondly and I'm like, oh, that was fun, because Lord knows my partner wouldn't be into X, y and Z. So it's nice to sort of like scratch an itch of some kind who's itch?
Speaker 2:But then there are some other people that are, and I don't necessarily have that now, but in the past I've had people that have been sort of like regular people that I would have sexual contact with and they've kind of blurred into almost like a type of friendship that's quite unique and hard to define, but sort of reaffirming and holding that space of my boundary and my relationship with my partner and not doing anything to threaten. That is the most important thing, and I would only ever do that with someone that totally gets it. And in my experience those people are quite hard to come by because it takes a lot of reflection to understand what you want, particularly when you're bombarded with messages of what relationships are like, what you look for in a partner, blah, blah, blah, blah. And usually if I connect with someone it's because we get on really well, um.
Speaker 2:But I think there's also something about me being in an open relationship of understanding that and not giving a um like playing into a fantasy or filling a boyfriend role for someone when that's not actually my place, and that's something that I take very, very, very seriously, because the last thing that I would want from what is meant to be a really fun, open, very sensual expression of you know, humanity, I don't want that to become something negative for someone, because that sort of defeats the purpose and, frankly, I'm busy, I don't have time for people's stress. I think that's very fair. Just one final point on that. I had a thought bubble. I was reflecting on this with my partner recently, but I've learned as well over the years that in a lot of ways I'm more comfortable being experimental and hooking up with people that are also in open relationships, because there is usually a baseline level of respect and self-reflection and a really good understanding of what we both want from our experience, and that makes me feel a lot safer than if I was to have some sort of irregular.
Speaker 1:But ongoing sexual connection with someone who isn't partnered but wants to be. And yeah, I suppose you know, in my experience with people who are in relationships and I'm single even subconsciously, I've got the assumption that it's going to lead to something more, whereas, yeah, the other person obviously does not expect or want that um to happen. So there's a bit of a mismatch of expectations there. So I think you're being really sensible in exploring with other ethically non-monogamous partners, because you do have that shared agreement from the get-go um. You've mentioned this idea of kind of judgment, stigma and things like that, and in the in the hero's journey cycle, the hero is met with challenges but also allies. So could you talk a little bit about people who have supported you in your exploration of non-monogamy or any kind of backlash that you've had from people around you? Obviously, you're not mentioning any names, but can you kind of explore the tension between those two?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, I think, to be honest, the best sort of like mentors and guides have been other people in relation in open relationships who have been doing it for a long time. So you know, there are plenty of couples out there, particularly in the like gay couples and, um, you know, pan couples who have been at this a long time and I think learning to their, learning from their wisdom and just sort of seeing how they relate and navigate these things is probably like has definitely helped me sort of like check my own feelings and my own behaviours and realise what's healthy and what's not and what might be tied to a fable or a myth about what a relationship should be versus what it actually is. So I think that's the sort of first thing. The second thing is there's like an emerging um, I guess, except acceptance of it, but in a way that I don't. I feel like it's really sort of ramped up in the past couple of years and with that comes more, comes more resources, right.
Speaker 2:So I think back in the like god like, definitely before 2000 I think it was, there was this book that I only came across recently Um, well, a few years ago called um the ethical slut. Um, you know, obviously it's an alluring name. I'm like, oh, that sounds like me, um, but it was. It's just this really great book that um sort of gives you uh, sort of it was nice reading it. So I was like, oh God, I'm not alone, Cause I I feel the exact same way and my experiences of relationships have been very similar to a lot of the stories within it. So I think there's more frameworks that you can sort of see yourself in.
Speaker 2:But, like I was saying earlier, my, my advice to anyone, or in my view, it's like frameworks are helpful to a point, but because each relationship is different, because each person's different, they've got their own limitations. So I think there's that um, and now you've got like whole, like it's, you know, more socially acceptable or whatever. It's more normalized to see things like throuples on some of our tv programs, to see open people in open relationships on tv programs, and I think that's really affirming because I think we can sort of. It's not that I want to take anything away from monogamy or the norm, but it's like it would be nice to enrich the landscape a bit, because I think having no points of reference when I started was really difficult because all I could rely on was the gossip and hearsay and stigma, yeah, which I don't think is helpful or fair to absolutely um, yeah, yeah, you mentioned like resource stuff there.
Speaker 1:The ethical slut is a great resource um, I think with dating apps like you know, grinder field, things like this people are really open about their relationship models. Yes, and I think that has fed into the the culture of it being more acceptable. And, as I say, I think in my yeah, network of gay friends, I can only name a handful of actually monogamous relationships, and maybe they are just socially monogamous, so they might actually be non-monogamous behind closed doors. You never know.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of heterosexual people are socially monogamous, but behind closed doors, you know. You have things like swingers in the 60s, 70s, wherever, yes, I think straight culture has its own form of doing this. I suppose queer people have the luxury and the ability to define relationships for ourselves a lot more easily, I think, than straight people traditionally have been able to, and, although I think that is changing as well, I suppose we have less baggage around monogamy, because it was never expected of us to have a monogamous relationship in the first place. You've named kind of three relational points about yourself slash body, your romantic partnership and other sexual partnerships. What are the distinct challenges within those three in keeping them healthy and affirming of yourself, your relationship and of and of others?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean that's a really sort of powerful question, um. So I think, for keeping yourself, I mean, the obvious answer is like get sti checks. I mean that's for your own health more than anything else, like you know. That's really important to do it. But I think, um, learning to explore yeah, thank god, um, but I think sort of learning to explore what is emotionally fulfilling and what is a nourishing sexual connection, um does take time. I really think it does take time, um, and I think there are plenty of people, without getting too deep, who have had some really rough experiences in their past that have impacted that how they see their body or how they approach sexuality, and I'm one of them.
Speaker 2:I've certainly been through a few rough experiences. If you're learning that sexuality is something that you give freely and it's a gift that you, that you choose to share with someone else, and that your body is your own and you are the one that makes the decisions about what to do with it, I think coming to that point of peace which is easy for some people and harder for others for lots of reasons, but I think coming to that point of peace has been probably the biggest life lesson that I've ever had. And I think if I was to be in a monogamous relationship for the rest of my life, I don't think I would have. I would have had these points of sort of self-reflection and to think about what I really want and what I really care and what makes me feel safe and what's important to me and all of all of that sort of stuff. But also get STI checks it's so important Every three months, come on.
Speaker 1:I think therapy helps as well in. Oh absolutely In a piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure, because we have so much we have. So, I mean, you know, we could talk about this for hours, but we inherit so much of our views about ourself and how we relate to the world and to other people from the super culture, whether that's the media and we won't even go there whether that's sort of pop media and movies. We inherit a lot from our parents and I think it's true to say that not all, not that's not always a good thing. There are certain things that I think we as human beings have the social responsibility to question and stop if that's not sort of helping us sort of live a truly egalitarian life where we're in harmony with each other and the planet and all of that. And I think sort of forcing yourself a bit out of the norm well, even a bit more out of the norm, I guess, in an open relationship makes you really, really, um, meditate on these things and understand what it, what it is that brings you peace and joy, and what you want to do with your time on this planet while you've got it um. And then you mentioned sort of with partners and and things like that, and I think the it's almost like I know that with my current partner, love of my life, stuck with him forever. He doesn't have a choice. Of course he does. There's always a choice. That's the joy of this, um.
Speaker 2:But I think before we got together, there was a long period of uncertainty, because I felt very sure that I didn't want a non-monogamous relationship, and I think it wasn't something that they'd necessarily given themselves headspace to explore.
Speaker 2:So I think and this isn't me being preachy or whatever, but I always knew that it would never, ever be a healthy, nourishing partnership if he wasn't 100% willing to try it and to explore these things within himself, and that's not something that I could ever bear the burden of pushing onto another person. Cause, again, it defeats the whole purpose and I would you know, you know what I'm like with guilt, um, but I think sort of watching them go through that and then, having done it for so long, kind of being able to support him through it, um it in ways that I can has, I would hope, helped it. It's been quite a learning journey for them and I don't want to speak on their behalf, but I think that would have been something that I would have loved many years ago when I sort of started on this. Oh no, you go Ben.
Speaker 1:I think you've become the mentor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really weird but kind of good, because I'm like god, don't do what I like. You know I can tell you horror stories where I felt, because I was in an open relationship, I had to have, you know, sex with this person and you know that was what was expected of me in an open relationship. So I started fulfilling another sort of stereotype or another role and I can tell that was awful and I'm like this is why, even as an open person, I don't do grinder or any of that, because I'm like there's just so much that comes with that that's triggering for me that I can't do it anymore I mean grinder.
Speaker 1:we could talk for a whole hour about the pitfalls of grinder um and the toxicity that I think is inherent in that app, although that's how we met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, and I'm grateful for the day.
Speaker 1:I can edit that out, I don't mind. So we've talked about kind of the trials. We've talked about the call to adventure that led you to ethical non-monogamy, and then the next part of the, of the hero's journey, is kind of the transformation and the wisdom that has been gained. Um, what does being vulnerable look like for you now and how do you think that's evolved over time?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a, again, a very powerful question. So I I think that being vulnerable in this context is being very, um, okay with your feelings and accepting them as they come and go, because the last thing like it's not going to be a nourishing relationship, regardless of how it last thing like it's not going to be a nourishing relationship regardless of how it behaves in practice. It's not going to be a nourishing relationship if you're not sharing how you feel, whether it seems irrational or crazy or not, and not expressing that in a way that's sort of healthy so that you can sort of unpick it. Um, you know, and there have been moments where I've felt like I'm not getting the right type of sort of assurances or, um, I mean, that's a strong word, but, um, I'm not getting the right things that make me feel assured is probably a better way to put it which are small behaviors right. And if I'm not actually saying them, then I feel like that becomes a means of sabotaging myself and sabotaging the other person.
Speaker 2:And if you create those gaps in your psyche and your worldview, I think that's where those very human and normal emotions of jealousy can go from something that you acknowledge and accept and work around to something that can really take over and make you a bit crazy. So I think learning to navigate that and being vulnerable by expressing how I feel in the moment, even when it seems wild, is a really powerful tool. That's not just in relationships, but something that I share quite often with. I mean, you know, we've known each other for years and I, like, have so many feelings, but it's something that I carry with me in my work, in my family relationships, in all sorts of dynamics that I have with the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a lot of people find it difficult to ask for what they want or what they need or both. What's that expression? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Yes, so I think the more comfortable you are in asking for what you need from a partner, then it's only going to help because you know they're not a mind reader, absolutely, and that feeds into those pillars of communication and trust.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, and I think it's important. You mentioned I just had another brain bubble about this, but it's probably I think it's quite an mentioned I just had another brain bubble about this, but it's probably I think it's quite a important thing to say. So I think in those moments where you're feeling it might be that you're feeling a bit, um, sort of unappreciated or, you know, it might be that you're not feeling as desired or whatever it may be, I think the first question that I've learned to ask myself is why do I feel like that? And the most important question that I've learned to ask myself is why do I feel like that? And the most important question that has been asked of me, of partners, is what's going on? And then if you just stop for a minute and you think, why is it that I'm feeling like I'm not as affirmed as I could be?
Speaker 2:Is it because I actually haven't seen you in a week? Is it because I have got a lot of stress at work and you haven't asked me about it, even though I haven't told you about it? Like I think sort of stopping and asking yourself that question and giving them grace to ask that question of you and making that normal is really hard to get to, but actually quite life-changing, because it stops you in your tracks and you can sort of live with your heart on your sleeve, but in a way that isn't destructive. It's a way that's like just really nice to be constantly in emotional balance with someone else.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Have you always been a reflective person, or is this a behavior that you've learned over time?
Speaker 2:I think it's both. I think I've always been. I would say that I'm a curious person always, and I think that's in my nature, because I'm always like oh, why is that? What's going on? Like, why do I feel that way? Why do that? Why are they reacting that way? But I think that by being in my like, intimate, open relationships and then exploring sexuality and what different connections look like, I've been able to refine it as a tool, um, because it's like a really powerful weapon to have in your arsenal if you um, you know, stood up. Happens to all of us, including when you're in an open relationship, when you're disappointed by your partner, when you do something that you shouldn't have and you feel terrible about it. If you don't have like, if you haven't well, if you're not on the path of trying to master self-reflection, you're just never going to get anywhere and you'll constantly be miserable, like I said, aware of my mortality.
Speaker 1:I completely agree we should just laugh and get on yeah, I massively agree, and I know it's not for everyone, but I've found journaling pretty much every day has helped me to kind of learn my own habits and learn my own biases, my own patterns. Um, I think it's the only new year's resolution I've ever stuck to in my whole life. Um, and when I was going through therapy a couple years ago, being able to look through my journal notes and analyze my beliefs about certain things, I thought was really, really helpful. Um, so we're going to wrap up shortly, but I'd to ask you, how has ethical non-monogamy changed your understanding of love, sex or just the human experience in general?
Speaker 2:Again, you hit me with big ones today.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'll ask you some lighter questions, no no, it's all good.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of them have common themes, right? So I think what it's taught me about love is that the love that I have and choose to give and graciously receive all of these sorts of things aren't something that anyone else can define. That's something that is between me and my heart flame, and we do it really really well. Um, and even if there's, you know, in the past I've been in relationships that haven't lasted forever it's always ended peacefully because we've always led with that. That love is a gift. It's such a precious thing and it's something that I want to share with you and this is my way of sharing it with you, and you know they've graciously received it. So I think it's taught me a lot about that and that you really can't define love.
Speaker 2:Um, I think with sexuality, it's taught, it's taught me that it's my own, which I know sounds crazy, but, um, I think we've mentioned that I've had sort of rough experiences in the past and I think we've also inherited a lot of roles, particularly in the gay world okay, to call it out that we sort of feel like we need to fulfill um or are placed upon us. You know, and I'm talking about topping and bottoming size, again, all of these labels which serve a purpose yep, brilliant but also can become limiting factors. I think it's taught, it's taught me, that, um, my sexuality is my own, um, and it's something that, again, I give freely and something that, yes, uh, is quite precious, which is weird because I'm in an open relationship so I can, you know, technically, go around and shag whoever I want theory, well, not really, because that's not a part of our agreed healthy, safe spaces. But you know, it's weird that I've got like, probably more taps turned on to go around and shag around than people in a monogamous relationship. But in a way, I'm like more choosy about it, um, with certain people, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:So that's quite empowering, um, and then, I think, for my relationship with the world, I think it's again just sort of stoked that fire of curiosity where I'm like, like, like. Why is it that? Um, like, why is it that we've sort of normalized this idea that, um, a couple has to behave a certain way, or should limit their opportunities, or that, um, you know, my partner having sex with someone else is somehow a threat to me? Like you know, I think it's just taught me to question a lot more about um, I guess the narrative that we're fed um and the narrative that we participate in in a lot of ways, unless we stop and we reflect and we're curious about it. So I think it's been good. I kind of have always liked questioning things from the outside while being in it, and you've known me for many years, it's not something new.
Speaker 1:So no, absolutely not. Um, I think the idea for some people who are maybe nervous, cautious, afraid of opening up their relationship, I think it comes from a place often that they're worried that their self-worth might be called into question, yes, that they're not good enough, that their partner might find someone better quote unquote yes, and that kind of fear of rejection, of being deserted, and I think that's quite a valid fear. I think that's not irrational.
Speaker 2:Um, can I play devil's advocate there? Because that's like one narrative that I just want to stop right away. And I think this whole idea that, oh, if they have sex with them, they'll fall in love with them and run away sorry, babe, if you're in a monogamous relationship, that will happen. If someone's that strongly attracted to someone, it will happen. Um, you know, my view on it all is if you know, I'm obviously so obsessed with my man now, but if he was to go on a coffee with someone and fall in love with them, or shag them and fall in love with them and then want to move on with their life, and all of that not in a self-deprecating way, but I feel like because we've been so good with our feelings, I would be able to make peace with that, because it would be again based on all of those pillars that are so important to our relationship. And if they're not there, then what's the point of pouring all of the coal onto that half flame? You know not that I'm giving them any ideas.
Speaker 1:I completely agree with you, I think. I think a lot of people assume that people like your partner leaving you is more likely in non monogamy but it's completely just as likely in monogamous relationships. I 100% agree with you with that labels in the gay community, you know, top, bottom, side verse, um, and even like the categories of men that we have, bear, twink, jock, all this other stuff. One thing I found useful is shifting the, the language, so, rather than saying he is a top as a noun, shifting that to he tops or prefers to top. So it's a verb, it's an action rather than a personality label or identity. Yes, I think if you internalize an identity of I am a top or I am a bottom, then you're less likely to explore the alternatives or come up against resistance when suddenly you desire something that you've never really done traditionally.
Speaker 2:And don't even get me started on the layers that come with all of the sort of cross that we bear from heteronormative ways of relating to each other, about tops being more masculine and bottoms being more feminine.
Speaker 1:We haven't even touched on gender and ideas of masculinity and femininity.
Speaker 2:Babe, I can tell you now, as someone that prefers bottoming I am not a bottom as a noun, but as someone that I can tell you now that is a lot more fucking brave and manly than just sticking your bits in someone. Yeah, you know, I think we need to flip that script as well. What is it top?
Speaker 1:privilege, top privilege, yeah, very that. Um, I'm gonna. So I'm gonna hit you with one last kind of deep question. Um, if you could go back and speak to your younger self at the beginning of this journey, what advice would you give to that younger self? Or what would you, what would you say to them?
Speaker 2:I would say I would say accept that things like jealousy and worry are all normal and part of the human experience and not something that you feel you need to suppress and not something that you feel you can rise above.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably the most important message I would give my younger self starting this journey, because many people well, I think there's two camps Many people worry that they won't be able to handle it and I can tell you now if you have a trusting, open relationship, you can talk through anything and you will get to a point of peace.
Speaker 2:But I think there are a lot of people who really feel like they're immune to jealousy and immune to worry, and I kind of worry about the strength of the foundation if that's their attitude, because if you're, if the most precious thing in your life is, um, if there, if there is a real or perceived threat that they're going to be taken away from you and you feel like you can just wipe that away, I'm like baby. That's to me. I just don't understand how you can be so different on the scale of emotion. You know what I mean, cause one's 100, one's zero. So I think my advice is just clock. Jealousy and worry are totally normal and totally manageable emotions, as long as you self reflect and as long as you talk.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a fantastic point to to end the the interview. Uh, before we actually end, is there anything that I haven't brought up that you would like to talk about, that you think needs to be highlighted, or anything like that?
Speaker 2:no, I don't think so. I would say be experimental, with lots of conversation, trust and all of that sort of stuff. But um and also um, yeah, I think we've all got a job to do to wipe away all of the sort of narratives that we've been fed about what healthy relationships look like, regardless of whether or not they're open or not, and I think we've kind of got a collective responsibility for calling out any behaviors that we think are sort of borderline toxic just because we think they're normal or acceptable. Toxic just because we think they're normal or acceptable. So if you're going into any relationship, monogamous or not, just make sure that you're leading with love, you're leading with respect, you're leading with communication and you're working on that trust, because without them we're never going to grow and smash the patriarchy.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, and bring down the empire Always, always. Jonah, thank you so so much for your time. That has been a fascinating conversation. Um, I really appreciate, uh, you giving up your time to speak to me this evening thanks so much, mikey.
Speaker 2:It's been so good to see you and, um, as you can probably guess, I'm off to the pub I don't blame you in this, uh, 25 degree heat.
Speaker 1:I don't blame you at all. All right, thank you very much take care.
Speaker 2:Thanks, love bye.