Ep. 15 Creating Real Value: Corporate Sustainability Beyond Compliance w/ Joy Phi

In this eye-opening episode of The Conscious Cut, host Hoiki Liu sits down with Joy Phi, a former global marketing leader at powerhouse brands like Kimberly-Clark, Fossil, Four Seasons, and LVMH, who transformed her high-flying corporate career by pursuing a Master's in Sustainability at Harvard. Joy shares her personal journey—from initially underestimating circular economy concepts like recycling as the ultimate fix, to discovering its profound depth through rigorous, live-interactive studies—and how that revelation inspired her to launch Crimson Impact Collective in Hong Kong. Together, they explore shifting sustainability from a compliance burden to a true value-driver for businesses, the power of supplier partnerships, innovative models like Patagonia's capital investment funds for decarbonization, and upcoming initiatives like webinars on circularity and sustainable finance, plus a value-driven ESG executive masterclass with Harvard professors starting in March 2026. This conversation is an empowering reminder that real change begins with senior leaders rethinking strategy, building resilience against climate risks, and creating win-win impact across fashion and beyond.

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Joy Phi is a Corporate Sustainability & Strategic Business Leader and Founder and CEO of Crimson Impact Collective (CIC)

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Joy Phi’s Journey

Hoiki Liu 0:03

Welcome back to another episode of the Conscious Cut. Today we have with us Joy Phi. I'm just gonna go on a little bit with your very impressive background. So first of your corporate background, you started at Goldgate, Colgate, and then you moved on to Global Marketing Director at Kimberley and Clark, where you were overlooking 175 countries for brands such as Kleenect, Huggies, Coltex, Scott, Andrix. And then you were the VP Asia-Pacific Market A of Fossils, taking care of brands such as Burberry, Amarney, Michael Kors, Tori Verge, Mark Jacobs, Diesel, DK and RI, and Carl Eigerfell. And then after that, four seasons, LVMH, Lee and Phone, and then finally you kind of took a pause and went back to your education, where you already have an MBA from Northwestern College, School of Management. And then you got your certificates from Stanford for senior leadership. And then Masters and Sustainability at Harvard and Harvard Business School, where you took additional certificates also for sustainable business strategy, corporate sustainability, and innovation. And finally at HKU, the most recent one, where you'd have a certificate for women dictatorship. Now, after that when we met was when you just finished your courses at Harvard, and I was bombarding you with questions about what that is like at Harvard. Um, fast forward to today, can you tell me? Well, first of all, can you tell me a little bit about Harvard? Let's let our audience hear what you had to tell.

Why Harvard: Live Learning And Rigor

Joy Phi 2:07

Okay. Um thanks, Waike, and it's great to be here. Yeah, I started my Harvard program in 2022. That was in the first term was in January. And before the year before that, I was like searching for a sustainability course. Um you know, Cambridge was a popular choice, and there's so many options, and I was like, yeah, and that's like a certificate program that's short. Um, Harvard at that time, I was doing a lot of search online. It's it probably wasn't doing a lot of marketing. It didn't really show up. But then there was one time after days and days of just figuring out which one to go for, suddenly I saw something like Harvard. And I thought, can this be real? And they had this info session. So I participated and I thought, wow, this seems to be um better in terms of what I'm looking for because all classes are live online. Uh, whereas for the other options, usually it's like pre-recorded, uh, that kind of approach. And I feel like I want something more personal because sustainability, I feel, is such a complex field. And it's great to have that interaction with the professor and the classmates. So I jumped in. I started in January, kind of like, okay, let's see if I can still do it because it's been a while since I was back to school. And finally, the way Harvard and the program works is the only requirement for them is like, oh yeah, there's an essay that you need to write, um, like an English comprehension test. So once you pass that, then they would need you to complete two courses at a certain grade before you can be fully admitted to the master's program. And these two happen to be the most demanding. So one is um kind of like extensive like foundational knowledge on environmental plus writing, research, writing, you know, all that academic writing. And then the other course is about the science part of it, like ecological statistics. I thought I wanted to be efficient. So I say, okay, I'm just gonna take these two together so that I'm done with it and I can formally be admitted. Then on the first day of our class, our professor from one of the classes said, as I've been telling you, you are not encouraged to do these two together because they are so demanding. And I was like, Oh boy, what have I done? And I'm just starting. And and then, of course, there's chat, we're all like live online, and and suddenly people are chatting, oh my God, I signed up for two, and who else? And it turns out there were like eight of us who were so brave or ignorant to have done those, and sign up for the two together. So we kind of like, what do we do? Okay, let's form a group so we can like support each other. And and so all throughout the term, we became like a very close study group, but it was very demanding, I have to say.

Hoiki Liu 5:13

So and you had to physically be there for a number of months, is that correct?

Joy Phi 5:18

Um, the what they require is if you're an international student, you have to be there for the last summer to do your capstone.

Hoiki Liu 5:24

Okay.

Joy Phi 5:25

Yeah. And they actually allow you flexibility in terms of like up to five years to complete your master's. It depends on the pace. So I finished mine in two and a half years. I graduated this year. Uh, some people actually do faster, they take like double the course load, so they can finish in like one and a half or two years. And some would like to just pace it, like just so probably they max it out to four to five years. Yeah. But I would say it was rigorous and in a good way, because I I thought, like, you know, this is all Zoom and all that, that you can just, you know, just go easy. But actually the the course requirements can be quite tactic. Um, usually for most courses, they would require you to either write something on the blog, do some research every um every week or so. And there's usually paper associated with it where you go deep in certain subject matters. But it's good because then it's it's really set a very high level. And the professors are both strong. They're like practicing scholars.

Hoiki Liu 6:36

Right.

Joy Phi 6:36

They either have their own consulting firms, um and also they teach. So teaching is like a passion for them to share. So there's so much to learn, not just the theories, but the practice aspect. And the classmates are a wide group. I would say still majority are from US, um, probably around 60, 70%. And then you get probably around 20% from Europe and then 10% Asia. And then it's a mix. A lot are very senior, and some of them actually work in sustainability, and some are relatively new, just wanting to pivot. So it's always a good mix of very lively discussions. I I do want to add something. What's I find special about it is it forms this lifelong support system and network. So even I graduated this year. I'm closely in touch with my professors and my classmates, and we actually kind of form a collective where we can comment each other to complement whatever projects we're doing, like some in the US, some in Europe.

Hoiki Liu 7:33

Yeah, and I guess this the students are from all over the world, the different sectors that everyone will have a common goal of how can they actually make a difference with sustainability. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Um now, this is this that'd be an interesting question. I think a lot, because earlier you were saying you can you can take the course as five as quickly as one and a half years, maybe if you're quickly trying to pivot and learn something new. Or it can be taken as slow as over five-year duration, which I guess a lot of executives who might be working and doing this part-time would prefer that. Um, but this comes to my point where a lot of executives, a lot of people in general, they might learn something from school, they might take these extra courses, master's or social care, or whatever. They take it and then it's just something to have in the back of the pocket. And then they go back to work and it's business as normal. So they go back to their corporates, to their offices. But with you, you actually took time off, went to school, and then when you came back, you didn't just jump back into the corporate boat. You started your own company called the Crimson Impact Collective this year. So can you tell us a little bit about why? Like what why did you choose to do that?

Admissions, Core Courses, And Study Groups

Joy Phi 8:50

So um I feel I've been quite lucky having worked with different industries, so and and great companies. So I I definitely enjoy working for a corporate. Um, like I had consumer goods, that's how I started with with Kimberly Clark being a company I worked for like over 10 years. And yeah, moving up from a country in Hong Kong to China to international to global marketing. Amazing experience. And then I got fossil, which is into fashion lifestyle, uh, for the watches, and then four seasons is of course uh luxury hospitality, and then LBMH for luxury retail. And I feel like this is quite unique that I have this exposure to various sectors and where I was able to contribute to their growth at the same time, assimilate a lot of knowledge from that. So when I completed my Harvard program, I feel how can I leverage that? How can I leverage my background with corporations and understanding how it works? Like, you know, there's always this PL. At the end of the day, you cannot ignore that, right? Whether if they want to do good, that's great, but you know, what's the ROI that still matters? And then my knowledge and sustainability and the area, the good thing with Harvard program too, it allows you to select your area of focus. So there's like a buffet of courses, literally, and you design your own. So I focus on corporate sustainability and sustainable fashion.

Hoiki Liu 10:18

Right.

Joy Phi 10:19

And so I feel like I can combine these two. And if I look at the landscape here in Hong Kong, most of the um sustainability, it's either like in terms of when it comes to education, it's mostly very technical.

Hoiki Liu 10:33

Yes.

Joy Phi 10:33

Like how do you write ESG report? And these are important, these are foundational, but it seems that there's a gap when it comes to educating the senior leaders. And so I feel that the experience I had with Harvard, the power of that is it's very eye-opening. Um, we in general, we don't know what we don't know. Like even me, when I signed up, that was like five years through three to four years ago. I thought, circular economy, that's recycling. What's why do I need to sign up for like a one-term course, like four months and stay up to to 4 a.m. twice a week for four months just to learn how you recycle, right? But then I realized, oh my God, how wrong could I be? Recycling is the least preferred option. It took me a while to really grapple that. Like all the things we're hearing around the brands, like you can return your old clothes, we'll recycle it. Oh great. Yeah.

Hoiki Liu 11:31

Yeah.

Joy Phi 11:31

But that's that's really not the solution. That's kind of like a band-aid to the problem, right? So you really have to think about it, design and all that. So I feel like, oh wow, that how can I enable this kind of like eye-opening kind of information experience, um, bring it over here and let senior leaders experience that too. Because I feel either if you don't discover it for yourself, it's hard to drive the change.

Hoiki Liu 11:58

Yeah.

Joy Phi 11:59

And that's the power of taking this program for me, that I discover things for myself that I feel like, oh my God, now I realized there's so many things that we need to really educate everyone. And so I feel if I go back to working, great, it's one company, but if I start my consulting, then perhaps I can create impact to more companies or even broadly with the education aspect, right? I can also kind of at least open the eyes for more people.

Hoiki Liu 12:31

So let's jump, dig a little deeper to tell our audience about what exactly does CIC do. It does a lot of, I know you do so different consulting works, but like who, what kind of companies would be able to come to you and say, I need some work for sustainability? How does that work?

Joy Phi 12:49

Right. So the reason I call it Crimson Impact Collective. So it's really inspired by my experience in Harvard. Impact is in general, we don't want to say this is just sustainability because at the end of the day, sustainability is an enabler for business results. So that's how we want to reframe it that this is all about business impact, environmental impact. But it should be, at the end of the day, a win-win proposition. And collective, because sustainability is just such a broad topic that not one person can have all the answers. So again, back to the network I built in Harvard, I can tap on all these professors, all the classmates, my peers, and really help companies solve problems. Yeah. Um, depends on the expertise that's needed. So I feel in general, I've been approached by a couple of companies, and it's it's across uh the spectrum as well. Some are they really want to formalize their environmental program uh with an eye on it has to deliver business value.

Hoiki Liu 13:54

Yes.

Joy Phi 13:55

Some are more like, hey, I I worked with this company, I'm the head for Asia. I want to drive awareness for plastic. Because I think people are not really understanding the harmful impact. So they also want to partner with uh with us and see how we can help them with education for their company as well as probably the chamber of commerce that he's part of. So there are different aspects. It could be um yeah, business consulting or the uh education aspect.

Hoiki Liu 14:26

Because it really is a very broad area.

Network, Faculty, And Lifelong Support

Joy Phi 14:29

It's very broad. And there's one company that approached me as well, like, hey, exactly what you're mentioning earlier. Um how do we make sure the vendors can drive decarbonization? Because there's always this barrier about the investment aspect. Yeah. Yeah.

Hoiki Liu 14:46

Which actually brings us directly to, I mean, I got a taste of all of that last night. You guys had a webinar and you had a panel that came together. I guess in the panel were some of them your classmates from Harvard or oh professor, the moderator.

Joy Phi 15:06

The moderator is my professor for circular economy at Harvard. Right. Right. Yes.

Hoiki Liu 15:11

Yeah. So I mean that was a very interesting panel. I mean, you've got people from different sectors there. Yeah. Daniel talking about plastics and glasses.

Joy Phi 15:20

Yeah.

Hoiki Liu 15:21

Uh Hop Long talking about their recycled down. Yeah. Um, how they deal with down. And I mean, overall, the general consensus I got from the panel was everyone was in agreement that they must build supplier relationships that drive sustainability through the whole supply chain, through the whole, not just supply chain, through the whole chain of business. Um, and I mean, of course, hearing that very positive. We we all agree we all have to build better relationships where along the line everyone really understands sustainability from from top down, from business to business, you know. Um this got me reflecting on the round table we were at last week at the design center, where we had delegates from Hong Kong and um Dutch delegates that flew in from the Netherlands. And we were pretty much discussing these, you know, similar topics around sustainability. And again, like everybody agreed that at the end of the day, who is paying for the sustainable costs, right? The sustainability cost. And the brutality is while we're all chasing the big vision, yet with very limited corporate budgets. And I say this because we never think of corporate budgets as limited, but okay, limited corporate budgets, because really, like you said earlier, we have to look at the PL. They are gonna be looking at the KPI on growth over the KPI on sustainability. That's just the reality, right? And also with consumers totally wired by decades of fast fashion shopping mentality that things should only be, you know, we should have more for less. And then at the end of the day, the sustainability premium inevitably is dumped onto the suppliers and the factories, you know. Um and brands are always, you know, threatening to look for cheaper options if the supplier can't give them that, shoppers don't want to foot the bill, suppliers need to shoulder it all. Everyone agrees, it's just how it's always been. We all agree that it's not right, but it's all been that way. So with your leadership guiding the teams across this ecosystem to rethink it all, how do you think from what you've learned at Harvard and you know, with all the experience that you've had now, how do you think we can help I don't want to say shift this responsibility, but share. Let's say share this responsibility.

Joy Phi 17:46

I think share is a key word, that's fair enough. Um just taking a step back, I think the key word for me is value. And I feel that that's that's kind of like always the the missing link. At the same time, that's a holy grail. Yeah. So if we can prove, like even for the panel yesterday, I did I did come up with this rhetorical question saying, I'm sure everyone's thinking, really, sustainability can deliver value because a lot of people think they're dichotomous. You do this, then you forfeit that kind of thing.

Hoiki Liu 18:19

To what you were saying in the beginning, like when you first look in a course, you thought of circularity as just recycling, right? So a lot of us are still stuck at your responsibility. And you know, we think of this as a cost, but like you said, how can we use it to drive value? That's not all. Exactly, right?

From Corporate Leader To Founder

Joy Phi 18:36

Yeah. So I think, yeah, first if we have to focus on that. And in fairness, if you're a sustainability practitioner, you need to understand that. And if you're a business practitioner, you also need to understand that value can come in many different forms. It may not be necessarily monetary in the short term, it could be brand, it could be loyalty. Like last yesterday's panel, Alex of um typing carpets. Yeah, I'm I'm impressed. The first time I met him just a couple of months ago in the conference, and he was talking about, you know, our carpets, we don't use any synthetic material. And that for me was like, wow, because I do know if you buy carpets, you know, there's acrylic, there's polyester, very common. Um but they primarily 70% are New Zealand wool, and they have very small portion of nylon, that like 7% that they want to eventually walk away from.

Hoiki Liu 19:31

Right.

Joy Phi 19:31

And even they're looking into the glue, they want to look for like more the nature-based. Yes, yes. Yeah. So so that begs the question, then will it affect their sales? That's gonna put their pricing high. Of course, their their clients are all premium, but still, and for them, it's really about you know being true to what your brand stands for. It's really about not just beautiful carpets that can last like heirloom, like for years and years, but also that it's good for you. It won't create you any harm. You use it at a farmer in the office or or hotels and all that. So, and it can build customer loyalty. It can build brand credibility. Yes and all. So I think this question, the approach to that, there's no cookie cutter. I was also at a conference called Cascale. They do conference every year. It's an organization with a lot of members that are brands and vendors. So this year they had the global conference in Hong Kong, and that is a common question from the vendors as well. Who's gonna pay for investment? So I think there could be a few approaches. Um number one, it could be more like if you do it now, you do have this cost. If you don't do it now, there's also risk. How would you compare this too, given, you know, in reality there's regulations coming in, um, and China also has their own regulations. So in action versus action, what does it mean? And will that help kind of justify the financial model? That could be one approach. The other approach, I actually heard this from Patagonian during the Caskell conference. Um, because they're always concerned, even if brands are willing to put money in it, it also increases their costs. Yes. Right? It reflects in their PL. So what they do is actually is they carve out a capital investment fund and they work with suppliers. If you can demonstrate that you have reduced your carbon emissions by this much, then we will subsidize your investment. And that money will then come from that capital investment fund. Yes. So it will not be reflected as part of the cost. Right. So that's that's I find that a brilliant model because then it's win-win. Then it's like show me the decarbonization first. Yeah. Then I give you the money. And then on the other, on the other hand, it won't impact, it won't affect the product costs. So it won't be like, oh, my products costs are going high because of all these things we're supporting. The benefits.

Hoiki Liu 22:03

And I guess at the end of the day, it doesn't come back to um you really owning what you do, right? Owning up to what you do. Because remember how last week I was bringing up how at at the round table I mentioned how um well the brand of three stripes. Um how they were sued in Germany. Oh, okay. And then they lost their their lawsuit back in April for greenwashing. Because all they they were they made all these claims about how they were decarbonizing and bringing down their carbon footprint, but really they'd made no changes to any of their systems in their existing business model.

Joy Phi 22:40

Okay.

Crimson Impact’s Mission And Offerings

Hoiki Liu 22:41

They were only um buying carbon credits, yeah. Um, which is you know quite controversial because it can be bought multiple times, even though it's on blockchain. Yeah, you know, we still haven't quite figured that out. So they were banned from um greenwashing and talking about decarbonization process because they haven't actually done anything in their own supply chain management, but they've just been buying it out. Um, but I don't know if you recognize at that moment, nobody from Hong Kong heard of that story because you know, we're very we're very much a place where brands owns you know the shopping experience, and we're very careful about that. Like I just asked if they mentioned this, but um all the uh Dutch delegates all knew about it. They're all like, yes, this is you know, new news. And I was quite surprised in that difference. And also, as you said, like in the fashion industry, because you study for fashion too, you know, like we're probably the only industry where you have physical products where those products have not increased in price and has not gone up in inflation over the years, but has actually decreased in price. True. If you look at how people are um shopping nowadays, you know, first of all, like I said, fast fashion, they think more, they want more for less. Um and just, you know, it's it's not an healthy space versus whereas there was a lady who was working for something like Kimberly and Clark. They did more household products, like your motions and your two-faces. And I remember her saying, like, the difference in their industry was that they would work with their suppliers and and the initial stage where they are coming up with new ideas on sustainability, they realize that there's gonna be an extra development cost there. So they're paying them more for the initial production, and then they have a contract with them for the next three years, they're gonna keep the product the same supplier. Yes, it's so unheard of in fashion. Like I was still saying, brands will you know bolts if there's a cheaper option.

Joy Phi 24:45

So or even I think I raised this example as well during that conference we were at, the workshop about this company where when they develop this tube that's made of fully recycled material, one of the challenges for innovation is you need scale to achieve cost efficiency. At the beginning, it's similar to the example you raised, it's gonna be more expensive. But they instead of like owning the patent and restricting it, they actually open it up to their competitors.

Hoiki Liu 25:13

Yes, yes.

Joy Phi 25:14

So then with that, everyone can start adopting it and it can drive the scale. So that's also yeah.

Hoiki Liu 25:20

I love that, but at the same time, that's also what like you know, as as people, yeah, no, nothing to compromise here. Like we love that, you know, but it's a business where it's like you're offering your bread and butter to others for free.

Joy Phi 25:33

Right.

Hoiki Liu 25:34

I see where a lot of business will will be worried about that.

Joy Phi 25:39

Yeah. You can say that's packaging, so maybe that's like that's not the core of the product. Yeah, it's a toothpaste packaging, so it's right. So that that would be less sensitive, but it's also yeah, a pragmatic approach. I would say because I actually started as an engineer. I work as an industrial engineer, so I was doing a lot of operational efficiencies at that time. I was doing a lot of like capital feasibility analysis, and and somehow those things stayed on with me. Like even when I was with LVMH, we were doing a lot of like retail expansion. Um, for I was with Moet Hennessey. So we were doing some retail expansion and we would do a lot of capital investment. Right. But it's always long-term, right? When you say capital, it's like, hey, what is the payback? Um, maybe three years, maybe five years. And I would say sustainability is the same thing. It's like an innovation where you cannot just say, I spend this much this year, I should recover it within the same year because it's a capital investment. So it's gonna be a three-year, ideally, maybe three-year thing. And then within that, I think to your point when you said sharing, the brand and the vendor, they should work together because the tide is changing.

Hoiki Liu 26:49

Yeah.

Joy Phi 26:50

You can choose not to do anything. Then the brands would go with someone who has been doing something to protect their brands and their business, right? As the regulations start ramping up. So I think it's a move forward that we can no longer ignore. Right. In fact, I've just read that HM and Intertex are also trying to reposition their portfolio. They want to try to aim for like selling less for more, so more quality.

Hoiki Liu 27:18

Which is, I think this is where what the value needs to drive. Right. Exactly. We we all know overproduction is a major issue. Now, the reason for overproduction actually, it's it's it's the chicken and egg thing that we don't we we don't want an answer. We just want to break the cycle, yeah. Right. Because it's if there's scale, we can get it for cheaper, we can move it forward. If there's no scale, we can't even get the ball to roll. But you know, at the same time, it's because we've always I don't want to use scale, I don't want to say excuse, but we've always said it's just necessary in order to do something we need scale. And that's one of the reasons why overproduction is such a big issue nowadays. But at the same time, now it's kind of flipping that script around where you're still looking at scale, but not so much of scale of making more, but scale of just making things more is it efficiency is the word? No, but just more sustainable, I guess. But it it's it's hard, right? Even when I'm the one like leading this conversation, sustainability and efficiency, like you know, we we want it all.

Circularity Beyond Recycling

Joy Phi 28:27

But but even for those brands, right? They try to aim for scale, but how many percent gets unsold at the end of the season as well? Yes, and so I think that's and they just say okay, they build that in their costs because they built in markups in their environmental costs.

Hoiki Liu 28:43

True, yeah. Yeah, they built in the cost for their PL. So this comes in or just write off. Yeah, I think this is where policies just have to come in because now the policies that brands can't just destroy their unsold goods, really forces them to think about what you're gonna do with your unsold goods because you can't just throw it away. It's not just a you know, a trash cost now. You actually have to that's where the EPR comes in, you know. Yes. Um, I mean, I'm just gonna throw this in there also. So uh in one of the during fashion fest, I was at another uh talk one day, and there was a student on the as one of the listeners, and he very bravely asked a question that no one in the industry dared to ask, which is, you know, why are we always talking about luxury in these panels? Like, you know, but where are the other players such as HM or Unicle or Zara? You know, like and I was like, it's it's not even what about these brands and it's it's what about all brands actually. Look at Fashion Fest uh in the last three weeks, there was no brand name that was here voicing out what they're trying to do in sustainability. There's a lot of industry players, but there wasn't anybody that was here representing a single brand. And I think brands are very careful about the messages that they bring out. So between greenwashing and green hushing now, they're just not ready to be so vocal about it. But I also told him that, you know, at the same time, it's not that these brands aren't present. Um it's that as much as we like to say they're not in the right, when they just do one percent, when they just change one percent of their business, that makes a much bigger impact than a hundred SMEs at a time. Oh, that's true. Yeah, right. So we do need them to do something, and that's why I guess we have these webinars, we have these courses, and so true. We need these high-level executives to come in here and to start facing the issues and dealing with these problems, right? Right. Yeah. Um building on that, I know you have another webinar next month coming up in January. Can you tell me a little bit more about that webinar and how are these sessions tailored to is it tailored to Hong Kong or the overall ESG landscape?

Joy Phi 31:09

So let me talk about the webinar we had yesterday first. So that's the first one that uh my company organized together with Hong Kong U. And the focus is that was on circularity. So we call it designing for circularity, value creating business models from Asia to the world, because my panelists are companies that are headquartered in Hong Kong but or in and Taiwan, but they do have global presence. And the purpose for that is to start raising awareness on circular economy, because I believe for Hong Kong the awareness is still developing. And I guess a lot of them still see circular economy as recycling, and and that's it. Yeah. And so, like putting the focus on design um was by itself an aha for a lot of participants. So I did receive some comments like, oh my God, you really have to start there. So that's the heart of the matter. Um, and then the next one I'm organizing mid of January is on sustainable finance. So it's another very important um endeavor. Hong Kong aims to be the leader for that. Um for Asia. Right now it is, it's around over 40% of the green investing is actually from Hong Kong.

Hoiki Liu 32:21

Oh.

Joy Phi 32:22

Right. So the moderator for the panel will be a professor as well from Harvard.

Hoiki Liu 32:26

Right.

Joy Phi 32:27

Um, and he has written seven books. The seventh book is called Modern China, published in 2020, where he actually talked about the sustainability initiatives in China and what the world can learn from that.

Supplier Relationships And Shared Responsibility

Hoiki Liu 32:39

It's funny, I've done a uh a quick um kind of like a research research about what it was for. Some students talk that I was showing them. Um because when we look at China, yeah, um, we don't we do think of it as something as as a country that's going quite green. Um, because we I mean you can see it from space, right? Like China 20 years ago was more yellow and also green, but now when you look at it from space, it's actually one of the greener parts on the earth. Um, because of what they've been very doing very actively with you know, planting more trees and and plantation in general. But you know, looking at the policy side, China's actually probably at probably one of the bottoms compared to so many, even compared to so many Asian countries that's around us, even Japan, Korea, uh Taiwan, we're quite behind. And it's not that our government's not doing something, it's that everything is voluntary. So I do I'm looking forward for more policies to start taking place and less voluntary action because I feel like while the country is not doing too bad, it's not recognized worldwide. Whereas there's other countries in the world that are just really leading in policies and it seems like they're doing so much better. But at the end of the day, uh I'm sorry to say, but a lot of those policies are still targeted back at Asia where the supply supply chain begins and stems, right? Yeah. So I mean, I hope there's that shift there. Right. But I I am also very excited about the next webinar because I think green finance is something that I'm personally I don't understand. I've been working in a very um SME kind of area where we're very focused in the nitty-gritty of practical with sustainability. But how can we diversify? True. And add value and things with things like green finance. I'm really looking forward to that.

Joy Phi 34:46

Yeah. So actually, the panel that we had yesterday on circularity, it was quite amazing because we had over 400 people sign up. So, and there were actually like close to 200 people showed up. I didn't even know I was there. I know, I couldn't make it up. Like, I know. I was trying to check, but it's like because we have the slideshow, right? So it's like you have to click so many times. Yeah, picture. So you have Facebook, yeah. So it was great, and people just stayed on until the end. So when we're doing a picture, I think we still have like yeah, 160 something by that time. So amazing. Um, and I got very good feedback about yeah, the how passionate and authentic the panelists are. They really believe in what they're doing and they really implement circularity. So that's amazing. Um, so we our audiences were, of course, there's Hong Kong, largely also Asia. Now we got because there's a panelist from Taiwan, there's Taiwan, China, and we were able to get some of the manufacturers, the vendors in other countries too. And then there were even some Europeans as well. So that's great. Even actually, my US peers, classmates, they were like, oh, I want to join, but it's it's like 4 a.m. their time, but they're asking for recording. So we'll see. Now, for the one in sustainable finance, we want to target Hong Kong um and China. So the panelists, there'll be four panelists. Um, one is from DBS, Hong Kong, one is from Deloitte, Hong Kong, and one is a lecturer at Yale and also a lecturer at university in Shanghai. So he's uh he's kind of like based in Shanghai and in the US. Right. Um and then the fourth one is the managing director for Bloomberg Green and China.

Hoiki Liu 36:32

Okay.

Joy Phi 36:32

Right. Because um, there's a lot of activities happening in China as well. And I think sometimes when people talk about sustainable finance, they always think of like financial institutions. It actually is something that can impact everyone because a lot of corporations as well, some are aware, some may not be aware that when they drive green initiatives, they can get preferential uh loan structures. So like there are certain associations and entities that can provide some support for some green initiatives. So that's something that can be helpful for the vendors too. Like I know Walmart and Puma, they actually utilize this to help support their vendor partners in terms of financing.

Hoiki Liu 37:14

Yeah, because it's it comes back to a lot of times is who's gonna do the initial investing and that's exactly where you need to find your funding. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So how I want to know, is is those webinars, are they gonna be regular post programs for the Crimson Impact?

Joy Phi 37:33

Right. We feel like um, so because I just established my company like a couple of months ago. So we're kind of in a pilot stage understanding where the opportunities for raising the awareness are. And and with the partnership with Hong Kong Yu, we feel like, yeah, it's it it does. We were pleasantly surprised with the level of interest for the circularity. And then we feel this is something that we can offer on a regular basis. Okay.

Hoiki Liu 38:02

So I know you guys, you and HKU are also going to have a program, um, an executive master class, and that's gonna open, oh not open, start at March 2026. Right. Uh focus on value-driven ESG, which I absolutely love because, like I said, so many of us are still stuck on um responsibility-driven ESG. And that doesn't help people see the value. That reminds people of the cost factor only. So I love that we're talking about how it actually brings value. Um, you know, because at the end of the day, we keep, and I'm sure you've heard this throughout, we keep saying, you know, where does the change need to come from? We've been talking about how financially we expect suppliers and manufacturers to foot the bill. But we always always keep saying that change needs to come from design. It needs to begin with the designer. Right. We keep saying that, which I totally agree, but at the same time, we can't I feel like we can't put this environmentally responsibly solely on the designer when so many of them that's already in the industry have zero knowledge of how to make something sustainable. Like they don't have the knowledge or know-how yet to know how to, you know, what is wrong? Like, what why do we keep talking about sustainability? Like when we talk about it, a lot of people are still thinking about recycling, but there's also a big part of people that hasn't even really got their foot in there yet, you know. They they're just starting to think about it. So, how can we put this responsibility on the people who's just just starting to tap in or just becoming aware, right? I love that we have you have you're gonna have this course where it's gonna, you know, really bring the top levels executives, pull them in and realize, you know, when you drive value, we're not just talking about reducing your PL, like taking away from your PL or you know, re reducing your KPI. Like that's that's Not the goal here, right? The goal is actually create a better future, like honestly, just a better future, right? Um, so tell us a little bit more about this masterclass. I mean, I already told you that I want to join and I'm excited, but you should tell our own audience why.

Proving Value: Brand, Loyalty, And Risk

Joy Phi 40:17

Yeah. So, well, I think you articulated a lot of the key points for that. Um, I realized as even within my own network of the senior executives, that in general within a company, they have a sustainability team, a couple of people, they do the EST record, and that's it. So I think companies see sustainability generally as a compliance exercise. Um, nothing more because it's an expense, it's a burden, it's a distraction. Yes. And then the other comes just business as usual. And I feel that's kind of unfortunate because sustainability can create value or it can protect value from risk mitigation. Yeah. But how do you change that? You can't expect the people writing the yeast to report to really elevate that because it's a really more strategic mindset. It has to start from senior leaders. So it goes back to like, how can I have them experience what I experienced at Harvard? And so they understand that we're doing sustainability, not just for the planet, but it's really for your company. Look at the extreme weather we experienced this year, how many black rainstorms we had, how many like storm signal number eight or nine or ten we had.

Hoiki Liu 41:34

And how hot it is now.

Joy Phi 41:36

Exactly, right.

Hoiki Liu 41:37

And exactly.

Joy Phi 41:39

Yeah. So these are disruptions, the supply chain, to so many to buildings, right? So actually for the property, I was talking to some of my friends in that sector, like, yeah, for properties, if you enforce the resilience of your property, your payment for the insurance premium will decrease. So that's already ROI. Right. So there's that equation right away. But it's the same thing for businesses. If you strengthen your resilience, then your supply chain will be more stable. You can secure um the necessary materials and all that. So it's it's in that lens where it's going back to can I, with my experience with corporation, bridge that gap? Yeah. I don't want this to be another like academic, um, just like it's for the planet. It is for the planet because ultimately, if the planet really, you know, something happened, then we all get affected. But at the same time, it's really good for the business to start thinking how do you integrate sustainability into your core strategies. Actually, there's recently, just this year, there's been a lot of surveys and reports from different, you know, consulting firms, even one I saw from HSBC recently, where they actually validate the fact that sustainability is a value creation initiative and it's becoming a strategic imperative for companies to thrive. And it's based on surveys with corporations. There's actually an article as well, released in Harvard Business Review, where it's written by my capstan advisor and my peer. Um, they surveyed companies, SP 500 globally, and the finding is that um 80, like over 80% are still staying the course with sustainability despite what's happening.

Hoiki Liu 43:33

Right.

Joy Phi 43:34

Um, and for those, a key common themes is that number one, they have integrated sustainability to their core business, so they really see the value. So there's no point like stopping it just because of certain external factors. And second, there's also leadership, uh, continuity, stability. They really believe in it. They see that it's something that's important for future-proofing their organizations. So they're continuing. So there's some there's a lot of like good signs, um, fact-based that it delivers value. So it's it's a matter of, I think, starting with senior leaders.

Hoiki Liu 44:11

Yes.

Joy Phi 44:12

Um, and that's why Hong Kong Yu and I were very, very excited about this program.

Hoiki Liu 44:17

I'm very excited too. I think it'd be a great way to start seeing how, because right now it feels very almost segmented into two parts, like people that do more practical sustainability business and people who are crunching out the data. Right. But how do you actually make those two come back together? Because that's when you actually see the impact.

Joy Phi 44:35

Exactly. And this is quite a unique program because we have the combination of a Harvard professor. There'll be three of them. Um, Professor Kerry Krasinski is an expert in sustainable finance, so he'll be moderating the panel in the mid of January.

Hoiki Liu 44:49

Right.

Joy Phi 44:49

Um, and he teaches at Harvard, Yale, and NYU currently. And then there's Professor Makeda, who is my professor in circular economy. He moderated the panel yesterday. Um, and then there is Ahmad Antar, professor for harnessing AI for sustainability. So that's a that's a very that's definitely a very present um hot topic.

Hoiki Liu 45:12

And the course is not too long. I I mean, you I will finish the course in March.

Joy Phi 45:18

It's a six half day sessions, Ali. So we did it like Friday afternoon and Saturday morning and all through live Zoom. So it's flexible wherever you are, yeah. But we get the chance to interact with professors and the peers. So yeah, six half-day sessions over March, starting mid of March.

Hoiki Liu 45:35

Right. And what can the applicants expect to take away from this course? Is there gonna be exams or are they gonna have to write papers?

Joy Phi 45:43

No, we I think what we want is uh to form them into groups right at the start of the class, and then based on what they learn from each session, then during the last class, it will be like, how do you then synthesize everything? And understanding that each company are at a different stage of the journey.

Hoiki Liu 46:03

Yeah.

Who Pays: Capital Models And Incentives

Joy Phi 46:03

We kind of see the journey as you start from compliance, yes, and then you start, and then you move up to like stakeholders alignment because stakeholders need to be educated as well, right? And then after that, you move into integrating to your core strategies, and then with that, then you start realizing the value, and then finally you start transforming your business model.

Hoiki Liu 46:24

Right.

Joy Phi 46:25

Right. And companies are at different stages, so it's fine. How do we then progress them from wherever they are to the next level with all these cutting-edge concepts? And then the one thing I like about Zoom as well is you have the assurance that all the materials are really the latest. Right? That the professors will constantly update this based on yesterday's news, for instance. So that can easily be brought into the topic.

Hoiki Liu 46:49

Right, that's great. I think it'll be it'll make a big difference because right now, between greenwashing and green hushing, a lot of executives are still at the ground of where do I see how do I walk through this path in a very careful way. So this will give them a lot more clarity, myself included. Yeah. Right. Um finally, I think, is there anything else we'll like to add to this?

Joy Phi 47:18

I think it it's really just being open-minded about how executives should see sustainability. Again, if I if I think back about my career path, unconsciously I've been driving sustainability. Yeah. That's been a common thread. And the beauty of it, the companies that I work with that embrace it, they kind of embed it already into their strategy, like Kimberly Clark. Right. We've been talking about planting trees all along. Um, there's always this FSC logo for a stewardship council. So that was like many years ago, like two at least two decades ago. But it's always been at the heart of what Kimberly Clark stands for because of the nature of the business. And then when I was with four seasons, you go to Maldives. They do a lot for coral reefs. Yes. Yeah, they already put in like 3,000 at leaves of this coral reef nets to protect them. And they do a lot of like rescue for tortoise. Or even in Thailand, this elephant and golden triangle four seasons, where they actually rescue the elephants.

Hoiki Liu 48:27

So, but they don't talk about it as like And these these are all um value added to the brand.

Joy Phi 48:33

Yes, right? Yeah. So when you go there and they have this, like in Maldives, they have this huge place for all the tortoise and all that, and and it creates a special like um brand acquisite, right, to parents, to kids.

Hoiki Liu 48:47

We're coming we come to this resort because of your ethos, right?

Joy Phi 48:51

Right, exactly.

Hoiki Liu 48:52

I feel like that's the thing that we need to bring back into fashion. It's like people, customers need to relate with your brand because of what you're doing. True. Actually, Patagonia has been but even they have been coming out to say, you know, we're we're not a sustainable brand. We're not green. We're we're just doing business in in the way that we do business, wouldn't you know? I agree because actually I I don't look at them and think, wow, they're such a green brand. I still think they're very much um like Israel overproduction there. I'm I'm sure there is, actually. Yeah, 100% sure there is. But at the same time, in comparison to the players around them, they are extremely green if you look at it in that sense, right? I mean, I guess I say that just because, you know, this is why I'm doing this, because I don't want to be part of the problem. But fashion is very much part of the problem and it shouldn't be. We should be allowed to enjoy fashion and not have it be part of the problem.

Joy Phi 49:50

But I think the Patagonia is interesting because like I also read something about Stella McCartney where the brand ethos is about sustainability. But when you sell a product, it should be stylish, it should be desirable. Yes, yes. So it can be a lot of gray area. Right. So there should be a good balance of the approach as well. Where at the end of the day, when consumers buy something, maybe they buy it for function because they need a nice down jacket from Patagonia. Or maybe they buy it for the style from Stella McCartney. So all these things have to come into like a holistic approach.

Hoiki Liu 50:24

Yeah.

Joy Phi 50:25

Right.

Hoiki Liu 50:25

And I think, I mean, well, Stella McCartney, she's created sustainable value very because her customers will understand I'm like, That's a brand new post, right? That's a brand new post. But I don't think many people have done it quite as good as these two, bro. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is something that I think either we need to do a better job or we need to do a better job in education to get people to recognize where the value where they should be finding value in fashion. True. Yes. Thank you very much for the lecture.

Joy Phi 50:58

Such a nice conversation. Thank you.

Hoiki Liu 51:00

And I look forward to your next webinar. Yes. Finally, I do have one last thing to ask you. How do we sign up for these webinars and how do the audience sign up to or find out more about the core masterclass at HKU?

Joy Phi 51:14

The masterclass that's actually on the HKU Business School Executive Education website.

Hoiki Liu 51:20

So I will have links to that. Right.

Joy Phi 51:23

Thank you. The webinar I will be, I can send you the link. So we're, yeah, we should have it ready by this week because we don't we want to wait until yesterday with that webinar before we start sending out.

Hoiki Liu 51:35

Well, by the time I post this episode, I'm gonna have both links for you and we'll be sharing that with our audience. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.