BJ McCaslin - Exiting to Vita Coco, the Functional Future

On this episode, we’re joined by BJ McCaslin, the Co-Founder & CEO of Holy! Water, the beverage brand pushing the boundaries of function, combining ketones, nootropics, functional mushrooms, and in some SKUs, THC. 

A 20-year beverage veteran who previously built and exited Coco Café to Vita Coco, BJ brings a rare blend of street-level intuition, scientific curiosity, and battle-tested entrepreneurial grit.

We dive deep into commercialization realities, the brutal economics of beverage, and how BJ approaches brand-building like an anthropologist.

We explore the fast-changing C-store landscape and where functional beverages fit in, and what it actually takes to build strong distributor and broker relationships.

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Episode Highlights:

💧 The 15-year journey behind Holy! Water
⚗️ Building a functional beverage with real “feelings”
🧪 Ketones, mushrooms & nootropics
🛠️ The harsh realities of beverage commercialization
🧭 Why brand-building starts with anthropology
🌿 THC vs non-THC SKUs
🚨 How BJ is responding to the potential hemp ban
💊 Vitamins vs painkillers
🏪 Why C-stores are the next frontier for functional drinks
📈 Broker & distributor strategies that actually work
🔭 Trends and brands BJ is watching closely

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Table of Contents:

00:00 - Intro
00:47 - Holy! Water origin story, product evolution
07:17 - Commercialization journey
10:09 - Anthropological approach to brand building
13:41 - Learning on the fly
17:43 - THC vs non-THC SKUs
22:07 - How BJ is reacting to the hemp ban
24:07 - Vitamins vs painkillers
27:41 - The C-store channel
30:51 - The evolution of functional beverages in C-stores
32:38 - Building strong distributor and broker relationships
37:42 - Brand and trends BJ is watching

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Links:

Holy! Water – https://enjoyholywater.com/ 
Follow BJ on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjmccaslin/  
Follow Adam on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/

For help with CPG production design - packaging and label design, product renders, POS assets, retail media assets, quick-turn sales and marketing assets and all the other work that bogs down creative teams - check out KitPrint.

Transcript

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welcome to shelf help today we're speaking with BJ Mccaslin co founder of Holy Water functional beverage brand that integrates ketones functional mushrooms Neutopic neutropics adaptogens and in some skews THC as well BJ is a serial entrepreneur longtime beverage operator prior to Holy Water started Coco Cafe which he sold pretty quickly to Vita Coco which is one of the leading coconut water brands among other ventures which we'll probably dive into at some point so a lot of great experience really excited to get into it um yeah first off BJ's just for the listeners that aren't that familiar with holy water love to kind of get just quick lay of the land in terms of kind of origin story why behind the brand core products in the lineup and maybe just few places people get their hands on them and then we'll go from there really appreciate you having me today it was great to get your background a few minutes ago and we're just talking about welcome to your first winter yep I'll see how it goes so holy water is a concept that I I worked on with a PhD biochemist partner of mine Jeremy and we got into we had a project before this where they raised um you know eighteen to go attack an FDA clinical uh regiment for psilocybin microdosing it for traumatic brain injury as well as PTSD and it was with some athlete friends of ours and I was exiting my can wine projects when I exit invited Coco I had a a runway with them and I I moved to India and I brought back an esoteric spirit that that project ran its course from essentially 17 to 23 for me and when we were getting out of the the siliceon piece my thought process for the Can Wine Company which I was just a consultant on at the time it was a joint venture but they didn't want me around too long so I said this is where we need to go right we lived in the the space that was a 4 foot canned wine set but it it it bookended to the the non alcoholic set and and the mixers traditionally but now the non ALC set and I saw that evolution so when you look at my background you know just really quickly I played sports as a youth as I told you my nephew's the top quarterback recruit in Norcal right now Drew Cumbie uh 16 years old Saint Francis and and for me it was like I've always identified trends and innovated and brought them to market in a very bootstrap fashion and one of my my idols is Jeff Rubenstein right the old CMO at Vita Coco and and um Poppy the president and now at cloud where my wife lives off of cloud popcorn I said make yourself look bigger than you are that is is something I'm really good at right and so I'm I'm I'm happy to have taken that advice and I think about it every day and I told the team over at Coastal Spritz now say less spritz and we were doing a lot of alternative venue activation right NASCAR Wrigley Field concerts with Live nation and and Legends LLC I said we gotta make something that compliments you know I was in the boneyard at forecast so we were sponsoring it and Louisville and we're crushing our can wine sales it's really really cool and I'm making a joke like I'm 40 selling wine coolers right but at least I was seeing Rufus do Sol that day and I'm just thinking in my mind what can compliment Liquid Death right and that's why we came up with this name Holy Water which in turn is a terrible name and I'm changing it because nobody likes it you know the retailers don't like it and I I feel like I've said this before I feel like I've talked that that rhetoric before I'm actually saying it out loud this is the first time I'm saying it out loud where you're gonna be able to disseminate that information um yeah it's just not well received and the concept was to be a positive affirmation to liquid death because we compliment each other and I was really I was sitting you know in the boneyard seeing liquid death and then I went to a really good friend's bachelor party or no his his birthday his bachelor party but he's fifty and it was a grateful dead show and it was like my 12th tall boy of the day and we had taken some microdoses or doses of psilocybin and I'm just like listen like I don't need any more of anything right now my mind's telling me I don't need more of anything but like what do I want and I wanted like I still wanted things I'm I'm very like if you look at me right now like I got this I've got this I've got I just took an energy gummy I just took this right I'm at a client's office right now I'll tell you more about them later but I wanted I wanted something like this and this is my favorite thing ever so we're we're gonna evolve the label we're gonna evolve the concept of it but it's still it's still based in the same realm it it's a it's a non alcoholic opportunity that you can drink on premises and then it's a it's a mood boosting energy drink from ketones and not caffeine right and and what is a ketone a ketone is a molecule it is the best molecule in the world and it's a gut microbiome that allows your body to start burning fat instead of glucose for energy but not only that you know I just left this week with the the guy who holds a holds a IP on beta Hydroxybutyrate Rob Rogers he's an amazing entrepreneur an amazing individual just I look up to him so much and blessed to have the opportunity to work with them we use R1 3 butane dial I'm going all to B H b um there's just so much positive white paper on B H B and and the whole concept there is it's cognitive it's metabolic and it is it's something that's gonna help you be less tired right and so that's our concept it's like what is everybody what's what what's the solution that we're looking for and what's the problem it's like it's energy is the solution but what's the problem is we're all tired and that's what this does and so when you look at layering the mushrooms it's great for the neuroplasticity the nootropics right relaxation anti stress and then we have amino acids like I made this formula I'm actually drinking the old formula here it's got bee pollen in it milk thistle um it's really cool stuff and then I I really I really caution of it and I wanted to come out with this being one for a function of this one for a function of that one for a function of this but then I went and met with the sprouts buyer um Brady and he's a dope dude and he's like that's confusing he's like and I've seen that on the shelf and he's like that doesn't work too well and so I was like alright I'm gonna listen to you Brady you know you know what you're talking about so ended up just simplifying the formula making it you know uh natural it was always natural but then even like as I started right it was sorbate and then sorbate you can't use it so I wasn't used to that so I took it out I pasteurized it anyways I didn't need that but then I reformulated this sweetener flavor right and then I put erythritol in it and you can't use erythritol anymore so it's like now I moved it to date syrup and monk fruit because people hate stevia so it's always just this really conceptual evolution and so that's what I wanted to do and that's what I said when I'm looking at the shelf this is what I want to do with the can wine those guys told me to kick rocks so I started this with the guys I'm from the Silicon Project and it's been difficult man it's been extremely difficult because of the name because of you know the time frame we raised a million two definitely not enough um we're 14 months old and and the execution has really been it's been a blessing to do a lot of b to B through online sales but through retail it's been extremely difficult and I think that is because of the name because of the newness of the concept of ketones the THC thing people think because we use a functional mushroom that it's it's THC infused and then I sell THC right but we're actually removing that concept as well so just steadily evolving left and right yep got it from I was gonna ask about the commercialization process and was it hard to find a co man manufacturing partner that would go through R&D with all these kind of unique ingredients and yeah what that commercialization process was to actually get the first cans off the line it really did so we started this project and we started with an Amanita Muscaria mushroom and then I told the team really quickly that I don't think that was a super viable ingredient and in commercialization so we we moved on quickly from that and I started making this with another friend I brought on Matt Hughes the old vice president of new revenue from Coca Cola my biochemist and I do all the formulation I really dig it I I love it I Learned how to do it making the Vita Coco Cafe in in 0 9 and and I really take a lot of pride and it took me a year so I started it in in like October of 22 working on it and I launched it in July of 24 so it took me a significant amount of time because the ketone the molecule tastes like shit right it tastes like aluminum and like gas the functional mushrooms taste like dirt you know and then the nootropics taste like metal so and people want low sugar and I love juice right I love added sugar from juice so I was able to have that blessing so I always take my formalization I work with a really dope lab in Louisville called Clarendon they're amazing um Brad and and Courtney and Richard they're just amazing amazing people they did my liquor for me they did another thing for me they did another thing for me and so formulated it and then I went and knocked on my neighbor's door next door a pilot project and Dan Able is my neighbor he's cool guy I think he beat me in fantasy football which is annoying I never play it and I'm getting crushed my second time and I just was texting Dan Dan's an amazing guy at Pilot Project and you should look at that you should get him on this you would love that dude oh yeah for sure yeah and so he made it and you know did a great job and like they came out with a 16 ounce can cause we wanted to sell it on premises and we sold like four pallets to the Coliseum and and it was cool and then it's like oh we don't need a 16 ounce can so just all that evolution but yeah the the formulation process was super gnarly now I'm really comfortable using these flavors but like I said the Reese's tall pulled it out and I just spoke at Supply Side West so I found some really dope date syrup that I never really thought of and it's low on the glycemic chart and it's super super dense too so I'm really high on the date syrup right now and and that's kind of where we're at I'd love to use sucralose but I can't you know so it's it's kind of where I live and I love where we're at but we're still like a couple years behind of people understanding what a ketone is you see kin parts Desoy recess Ohio those are my complimenting brands like those are my family right and then I have my competitive set which is Ketone IQ but I love that guy I love Michael Brand Kinetics and another amazing brand and so those are like the people I compete with Per Se but I really love because there's only three or four people in the world using the ketone molecule yeah totally yeah I love the Ketone IQ guys Ketone IQ guys too they're all great people he's super dope man he's so cool yeah super cool um doing the research it seems like you kind of approach brand building from kind of an anthropological standpoint I mean you like really like to immerse yourself hit the streets go door to door really try to catch a vibe to a certain extent from your point of view like and what do you miss by just doing a bunch of research and market analysis online and saying okay cool this seems like a good hole in the market let's try something yeah look I hate AI I like it to correct my emails right because I I don't spell well and I played football in college my grammar's poor but like it with I like I've been looking for a new name I don't even have one yet so I'm working with Paula from Sweet 9 c and and it's like I I put it in AI and it gives me the most generic bullshit I've ever seen and so when you think about like what I did here with the mushroom cloud I actually this idea is from another investor we have Ryan Perry he just did the wild AF brand um with Charlie Sheen he's from a place called Silent Studio my wife's the CMO traditionally from the real estate side CMO Subway CMO of Berkshire Hathaway has her own company now um and CEO CMO of another company crashes it in Chicago and for me it's like that's what I love and I'm a street guy right so I'm always in the streets like this last summer I took on this aspect of me that's new as a consulting aspect like I'm a president of this really cool company making the brand right now called herb and Highlandia and I'm a street guy right I'm a distributor minded retail really when I land somewhere like my friends are secondary to my accounts'cause they're really the people that are the lifeline of me so you want a liquor store David in Venice Beach Rose that was my best friend man you know you talk about Ricardo at Star Liquor in LA like these are the people that I look at on the set like where how do we live how do we differentiate and it's funny because I don't I built differently when I was with Rob this last week he showed me a deck of some really cool brand so that brand's dope I was like what's the ingredient stack he's like they don't have one I was like what do you mean they don't have one and he's like I'm like I built differently I build the product and then I go to my I go like you said I hit the streets I see what's what's the what's the flow and then get with the team I'm not creative at all and so I let them really just run wild with it like I love this vertical I love this I love like we're gonna change this logo up a little bit you can see on this evolution of this can obviously it's hard to see with the label the film but like we changed all this stuff up enhance ketone hydration we took all that off and it's funny cause you look at the go look at the guys from Vital Proteins their their brand called love who came out like I've seen it yep I'm very similar to ours and you tell me how different their branding is than ours yeah even and my lawyer god bless his soul he passed two months ago and he's like we can't sue them for that either there's nothing we can do it's just called trade dress so it's it's not interesting that's good to know yeah yeah so I mean how much that dude raised like a hundred million right out of the gate for that thing and like I'm watching mr Beast on his his it's blogathon and what's in the back b love and people see b love at freaking these concerts and like oh man this guy's drinking holy water I'm like no he's not he's drinking a b love man yeah it's gotta be frustrating here and there you know but that's that's the reality that's just how we saw we saw the design they saw our design they loved it they copied it but that's that's love man literally imitation the best form of flattery right doesn't it yeah but like that's what we saw on the shelf making it a little bit of a different and we love the white too you know we love the white popping and we tried a ton of different things inverted cans different color ways but I love the gradient and and it was just cool and and like you said I I got that vibe from being in the festivals being in the streets seeing what would differentiate myself from the marketplace and getting with my team and and we came up with it you know in a year so it wasn't like it was quick right totally yeah man that are just in the early stages of building their first CPG brand they need to learn really fast what's kind of the best way to do so what have you found the best way to kind of yeah look I I was blessed to have this opportunity in in IN13 to partner with Vita Coco like you said I sold that thing in 90 days I opened it in November and I sold it in January of this of that next calendar year and it was because I loved Vita Coco and I was on a beach in LA met my partner Alon and on Craigslist you know that November that December we had the Bevnet forum and I we were blessed to win Best Innovator of the year there and Kirban was the man of the year there so I went and sat behind him and Sidowski Ken and I had like my six pack and we put organic on the first bottle and you can't cause my buddy told me you could and you can't so we stickered all 200,000 185,000 Tetra packs and I sat behind Mike and gave them this coffee coconut water which they easily could have done on their own and Mike's like that's cool and then he got up and left to go to his flight and I followed him out there and I was like listen man like I'm like you send me these cease and desist I hired that dude and I'm not gonna hire anybody but can I hire that person and he's like no you can't hire that person and so I was like perfect like following up on that I'm like I'm broke I was like I don't know what I'm doing can you help me out here and he's like I'm like I'm like would you buy this from me or I was like even secondarily if you don't buy it like I'm broke I need a job like would you give me a job and he's like let me get your number he's like I kind of like what you're talking about and so then from there we just started texting you know a segue into specifically what you asked was like I just became a sponge like I slept in the Vita Coco office like I literally would be there every day um I moved to New York before the deal was done and when I got my money I remember I went to the store and changed and took off the clothes I had cause they're so beat up and put the new clothes on and left that store and I really just we had Jeff Popkin as our leader we had amazing you had Tim Duire you had Brian Arkus you had some of these amazing leaders right Tim's at this incubator now he did flow water you have Arcus who's running lemon perfect and then you had Jane Pryor who's like the best CMO in the game still and at Vita Coco and then you had all these amazing people JB and and Goldie then you had like a lower level at that team like John Van Steenberg and Jeff Stall Brian Johnson like Chris Borgononi like those guys were street level guys like and that's who I went and rode with the whole time I bought a Coco for three years I did a new market every week and I just I literally was a sponge to understanding distributors and that's like when you go talk to what does a new person need to know in CPG it's how to manage their distribution right it's how to manage not only like the theatrics of it but it's like the personalities of it and I Learned that really well from managing the emotions at my restaurant when I was 21 to 24 so I was a terrible manager for the first year super emotional super reactive and then some of the sorority girls that I'd fired would come back like you're such a dick and then I was like dude I am a dick what am I doing and so I really Learned how to be a better leader and then when I got with them like I had no understanding of the business at all so I really was just a sponge man and and it really taught me about distribution so like that's what I love and when I talk to a lot of people it's like the demographics of the nation and how your distributors are it's so different you're in Miami versus Boston and Boston versus Austin and Austin versus LA and Vegas it's so different and that's really what I I you know you gotta go deep is what they say but then you gotta make money like you can't go you know it's like not everyone can make a million dollars in Chicago selling a drink up and down the street it's just hard so it's managing the distribution it's understanding you know and getting the liquid to lips and and figuring out you know that consumer and identifying that consumer for the distribution to get to them but now it's tech right so like this thing I just gave you don't even listen to that right right now it's figure out your DDC route and that's the way to go yeah that's ever seems to be the trend is launch DDC you know you can then bring those numbers to retail and show hey put us on the shelf Adam then write that in a book and sell it man that's it right I can't I still can't sell DTC for shit I don't know how to I've hired numerous firms they don't know how to I don't know some of your skews have THC some of them don't from the beginning was the plan to have both THC and non THC skews or did that vision evolve over time always yeah no always when I was at the wine company I I saw THC coming up and like I did a deal in 22 21 I told them no cause it's a shit deal and it proved to be a shit deal and then 22 I um uh did the deal and I said this is the future right these THC drinks are crushing and and I wanted to make a Coco Cafe a coffee coconut water with THC and then I wanted to make a shot with the new Tropic so I did it backwards and and I flipped it when I got over here because I then I had the sessionable drink at the venues versus the lightweight high margin um really psychoactive shot like that shot I got like 80% margin I just shipped the shit out of it I'm like in 2,000 stores with that shot the velocity is low because I picked the wrong color bottle I picked the blue bottle and it looks just like feel free kratom so I really f myself there but the the product is amazing man my my formulator partner Jeremy that's where he really came into play cause he's a mycologist and he's got a lab in Colorado we use this THC pop P molecule and then we we emulsify it with some CBD and then we put in the Nutri Pops and the the ketones and the BHB and the functional mushrooms and it is amazing high like my buddy who runs the Monster Brewing he's like dude I took that shot on Friday at Wrigley to see Pearl Jam and I was high till Monday ha ha that's not a great experience but yeah now that shots I take it and I go ride the bike because it gives you that instant high and we got a really cool guy on social media and it shows you how low my social media following is but he uses these these THC drinks to go work out and that's like what I do too like I've I've used cannabis I've been an athlete got scholarship I I use cannabis since 15 years old every day in a very incremental process and I still do right like I microdose cannabis per se and you know it's not a thing but that that to me was what I wanted I always wanted something that was actually psychoactive and and not just mood boosting and metabolic but that's why you see the rise of of big hemp right that's why you see they just got screwed I mean because they were just taking over that that psychoactive place like my buddy not my buddy a guy that they he sold some packages this kid's a wrestler at Wisconsin he came in this kid's 18 or 19 and in Wisconsin you can drink with your parents at that age and he's like let's go have a beer we don't do that here at the university of Wisconsin we don't do that here but if we get I'll take a THC drink so yeah I always saw that as an avenue and I love it and that's why like I said my current client is a hemp company for like 10 years and they're amazing like they are the diamond standard of what's going on in hemp and THC and it's really cool to see I'm making their drink from right now and we're launching it next month here in Wisconsin oh that's awesome that's great have you found with the cause you have versus the consumers that purchase the non thc skews are they fairly distinct or is there is a a fair amount of crossover and everyone's buying both well look there there is a a fair amount of crossover but that's specific to my route to market because I I invested a lot of time in in the counter culture and the gray market and the smoke shops cause that's where I saw the velocity with the THC early on I came out with the THC shot first and that was where I I started getting the instant revenue right we've 500,000 in our first year so still really really small um you know what that's where I've got my I got a big pop of like 200,000 in my first three four five months from the THC so I put the holy water you know cognitive drink next to it and it's still the same customer but really that's not it's not gonna be the same customer over time like I want the the the the metabolic drink for holy water is for endurance athletes and biohackers but I'm trying to make it more sessionable where I I gotta send it I'm remissed I apologize I didn't send it to you so you're good no worries well I didn't even think about it man I've I've been on a literally five trade shows in five weeks it's just non stop yeah P L m a supply side knacks champs and then an another one it was just crazy so it's a blessing to have all these people in front of you but yeah this should the the the metabolic should evolve more into the endurance athlete but also I need it to get more we're finally getting like it's a non ALC right so I want it to be conceptually used as a non ALC not a mixer but not psychoactive either so it's like the recess it's like the pause will it give you some feeling yeah but will it give you a truly visceral feeling like no it won't you know you're not gonna drink it feel it you know you you might feel something hopefully better totally how are you how are you strategizing around this hemp band thing and you know have whatever 350 ish days left before this whole thing caps processing and strategizing around it look these guys that I'm surrounded by are super smart and educated in that way so I don't wanna say anything that I I don't know about like what I do know is there's five sessions of Congress I ran for office twice in Illinois I got on the ballot and the party I ran with kicked me off the ballot you know for no reason other than they don't want me to that's politics yeah the Windy City so they didn't want me to run against their incumbent so it's an uphill battle is what it looks like to me you know when you talk about big distributors big beer big cannabis I don't know how it changes me I was always borderline you know does THC fit my model and this clearly showed me that no it doesn't sure just for the reasons that is it gonna be there I don't know and and do I need to build a brand based on that no I don't so yeah we're done with THC we're making shots and then we're making stick packs with ketones yeah and there's already someone else did it you know Aubrey Marcus did it but like my concept's cool and so if you see anyone else do it just know they copied me anyone makes ketones and creatine ketones and collagen ketones and colostrum ketones and hyaluronic acid they copied baby Jesus but that's what we're coming out with now so hopefully we'll get to market first with that and then a two ounce shot like just like I told Michael Brandt Ketones IQ like that's where our consumers based at so we've got to get him get him that yeah but now the THC to me it's it's tough because I love the the health benefits of CBD and that plant and it's it's really sad to see that politics can especially these old fools man like Mitch McConnell like can that guy even talk like he's the one that brings it in it like what are we doing with that so it's crazy it's so wild it's so wild um another question I had for you and I was like um pretty sure I've heard you talk about how with true microdosing I think I've heard you talk about things like shilajit as an example like I love shilajit those are the things where you don't but that doesn't mean the product isn't working yeah I guess I the general like consensus you know thought leaders say is that a company should our brain should focus more on offering you know things that have a noticeable fairly immediate acute effect versus which are like that are subtle what's your take here look I think you hit it on the head I I agree with what you're saying I think it's always function over flavor and function over whatever you're taking you know in a couple different stories I saw a guy yesterday post on LinkedIn cause I'm always active on LinkedIn it's funny my friends in in real life I R L they're like who are you on LinkedIn I'm like that's me and they're like no it's not I'm like yeah it is um I just found it as a great tool when I you know was in opening our our wind energy company and it's clearly been proven to be a great tool that's how you and I met right it's like and it's authentic and it's real versus like a DM on Instagram or an email that now you get so many freaking spam emails it's like come on man so yeah like I I saw someone post it's like hey we're getting function washed and we really are when you go talk about you know some of the people that are putting these neutropics and functional things in their brand I'm at 13,000 milligrams thirteen thousand so 13 grams right thousand grams milligrams in a gram I didn't know that for until like last year but other people are at like 350 milligrams and they're saying the same thing I'm saying so like and you're gonna sell it you're gonna buy it for the same price and then I saw someone who makes an RTD liquor drink and they're like why are non alcohol so expensive my formula cost me like 70 cents your vodka cost you 3 cents so let's do the math there you know and in his last line was come at me like easily like then no I'm not cause you're that person so we're using really really top of the line you know functional you know futuristic metabolic cognitive really really cool stuff and so you get that function but then a lot of people say this tastes like shit man like when I put it online and I sold it on Amazon I'd get like horrible reviews and so we literally put it a disclaimer like this does not taste good and so now as I'm formulating like I'm really my cans are gonna move down in ketone execution because it just I need the flavor and so that guy was right online like it is flavor over function yeah you know like and and do you feel it so going to your specific microdose thing like you know I have a ton of experience in silosivan and using microdose you don't feel microdose you feel like a spark of joy you feel happier like whatever your ailment is it kind of alleviates itself yeah if you're feeling your microdose then you're just tripping you know right that's not a microdose no I'm with my I'm with my buddy Kyle Cook the DJ right and from Lover Boy in San Francisco one night my wife you know she's she's taking her microdose Nutella that like her person gave her and she's like dude the room's spinning and I was like what did you do and she's like I took this Nutella like how much is in it and she told me I'm like dude you're just high like you're tripping man like it's like under the cappers so yeah microdose you shouldn't feel it yeah there that's why even if you take five microdoses you shouldn't feel it right take like a dose you'll feel it and so that's why when you take my stuff and holy water and someone's it's not an energy drink like you're not gonna feel that taurine guarana caffeine kick you're just not gonna feel it you're gonna feel better you're gonna feel less tired you're gonna feel healthier but yeah it's a weird it's a trade off because like am I gonna feel better but this actually tastes like shit and I'm drinking something I want to to like satiate taste right good right now but that's why I think the THC drinks crushed it because those guys at Pilot Project and vertoza and not not Pilot Project but perfectly dosed like they've done such a good job at their emulsification I remember when we started emulsifying THC in like early 21 like it tasted terrible yeah it tasted like bar and now it's like it's beautiful yeah yeah there's definitely been a lot of improvements on that front that's for sure but it definitely seems like the C store channel has been a pretty big focus for you throughout your various kind of beverage adventures what's what's unique about this channel compared to I guess more tradition other traditional retail channels and the kind of what's the key to winning in C stores versus others I mean shit you talk about these retailers I was so blessed to be with white a Coco and not see the bills they had to pay to get my brand on shelf some of these guys they want me to go into their stores and give them thousands of dollars I'll never make and then and I won't have the velocity at that store now not only do I owe you money which I don't have because I didn't make it in your store but that is gonna be so low that you're gonna kick me out I'll never get to go back in there so when you talk about like that's again going back to who I am it's like my my route to market strategy innovating make myself look bigger and the Jeff Rubenstein strategy it's like you've gotta play where you can where you can go and not pay and that's really you know it's knowing like I've lived in numerous cities you know LA Vegas New Orleans Atlanta Boston Miami Chicago New York it's like I know what the people think in those markets I know where they shop I know where my consumer shops so and I know the hybrid from like a really nice health and wellness or a bottle shop you know where both these things fit down to like what's the grimiest little C store I can fit into in a dirty little neighborhood that can actually have the right consumer there and so that's that's where it's like you lay it's the lay of the land it's like seeing the matrix I always say like when you walk into a bar it's like super dark and by like your third Corona you're like man this is awesome it's so clear I love this bar you know but you were you're a little trepidacious when you walked in there so I I accumulate or I attribute my my understanding of each market that same way it's like what's my lay of the land where do I go what's the demographic here and it's typically like the C Store is where I'm finding that neighborhood right like in LA it's that whole strip up and down Santa Monica then it was that one strip up in West Hollywood then it was that strip in Echo Park then it was that strip in Hermosa Beach then it was that strip in Orange County and then that strip and then it was that strip up in Malibu and then it was that strip in the Palisades strip in the valley so it's literally one strip turns it now to a parallel then it turns into this and now you're like okay you go to Rainbow Acres you go to mother's markets I was doing demos at Air One when it was still like an ethnic grocery store in LA right now Air One won't even take my brands so shout out to Air One but it's like to me it's like that's that's it it's really understand your route to market understand your lay of the land and there's a really cool young lady up in San Fran she's got a brand called drippy and she's always out there hustling and I sat next to her a CPG event from startup CPG and Daniel that guy's amazing too by the way like that he's great that community is insane that dude's amazing his energy is insane and but his community I'm in that Slack channel and I think there's like 50,000 people in there at this point it's bro I used to live on that Slack channel until I got too busy I was in that thing man I was soaking up everything screenshot it you go through my phone and I love like the LinkedIn culture too it's because everybody posts like who did what for them what buyer did this what distributor did this my phone is full of thousands of screenshots of everybody who's done everything for everybody and the same thing with that startup CPG Slack it's like what a what a use what a what a resource yeah it's great it's really great in the C store channel like so like I have to I love heinens I love sunset food I love Peet's Market I'll die like the Peet's Market buyer is amazing so when you look at your regional groceries chain in the C store that's kind of what they've grown into is that regional grocer is kind of your C store play now but when you look at like C stores in Chicago they're all liquor stores in LA it's the same thing but LA is different because LA is is super motivated for health and wellness they really cater to their neighborhood you know like Tupac always said in LA there's a liquor store on every corner you know that Oakland but I mean they're they're different they're more affluent they're more progressive the C stores here in Chicago are all liquor stores and so we have like the Fox trots and we have the go grocery which are amazing but I still kind of conceptualize those as C stores super competitive like I can't get in foxy trot either can't get in go grocery because they're just so competitive so I'll go to the liquor stores and then in that set it's just so unorganized like where does it go it goes in the energy set so I'm next to Celsius I'm next to monster but that's not my consumer so I'm not getting that pull so where do I gotta go I gotta go off shelf and so that's always been my methodology and it's same thing like you get into your one regional chain we got into Jewel Osco and it's like what do I do I go to every jewel we're in and I make sure that I'm tight with the manager and get in not my mod but the open air cooler the produce set another set you know so you have to get four or five points of sale and that's what you have to do with these C stores too is is figure out the food service channel you look at like what wild wonders doing you look at like this young lady here in Chicago space time tea uh we just got brought into all the the Discover um campuses through Pod Foods like that is really where you want to build your brand in that food service channel in the functional space uh we sold a pallet to meta so it's really really cool yeah partner with their distributor to really maximize success and really try to build a true partnership with them yeah I mean you touched on the broker piece too like I love key account sales like I Learned it from my father he's a project guy I love key account relationships like that's how we got into jewel but we got into jewel through the key account rep right so when you look at like again you're out to market Kaye's an amazing place to sell your brand and they're super super progressive I actually gotta make an ad for Kaye I gotta write that in my hand because I'm gonna forget but and I'll use AI for that my designers off but like that aspect of harnessing that distributor relationship is they need anchor accounts they need key accounts they don't want to go sell your brand up and down the street because they're too busy right they're not making money on it but the KH reps are amazing so that's obviously why in the natural world you started a KH you started a Unafive and then you don't I think you know overshoot really what your goal is you really have to create realistic goals and these goals suck right like that's why I'm at where I'm at I'm 500 k LTM but I'm break even like you know I didn't I didn't raise any money this year you know so I'm not I'm not blowing dough and I'm not getting paid but I'm not making any money I'm not spending money where I'm 500 but I spent a million or two million like I'm not doing that so it's really having a very narrow focus and I've utilized some brokers and I went way too big with them and I said you know let's let's attack these seven regions but it was like well we sell through UNFI here or we sell through this distributor here and I was like I only have K he I only have this this DSD and so it didn't align with their broker strategy and then you know even the food service is tough like you wanna get in Canteen Vistar etcetera but need anchor accounts and and you know unless you can hammer that and I had a broker for that too and you know we had with some conversations they had the same conversation for three months and you know it's just because it's not because it's their fault it's because it's my brand's fault right my brand doesn't have the messaging that really allows these food service accounts until I get in front of them with other data like you mentioned to make really relevant sense so that's why I love layering DSD in with the broadline and I didn't know what broadline was either for some reason but broadline is like K Heat right there they they essentially call it direct cause it's lower margin it's easier to get in their warehouse and then they hit those stores all the time where DSD is your Anheuser Busch your your wine and spirits distributors or your your Normans and your Romano's like locally here in Chicago that crush so that's what you gotta find that's why I got really lucky and I partnered originally with Tony Harlambos and his team in LA and then they did so well for me back in 2,012 and 13 like they build brands back then like and I still would yell at them you know build brands I remember yelling at Ron from great state like he sold like 2,000 cases his first month but I was with Vita Coco and I only had a a specific run rate with Vita Coco before they were gonna buy me out so I was super aggressive and um it's just like they were doing really really good shit back then and so now it's like you know now now these distributors collect brands get you into a contract play with your life like Pitbull says but it's like it's at the end of the day you know you gotta know what you're getting into and and you gotta know the market you know to get in there too and I have an amazing broker J&W sales it's this dad and his two kids and they are freaking the best like you talk to Nate Cooper who is my neighbor also but he's always busy and um they built OLIPOP right when when that stuff wasn't even relevant right and now you look at like what is apple cider vinegar everybody consumes it and it's the same thing with me like this this broker J&W they've gotten me in peats they've gotten me in this other chain they got me in this other chain because they have these these sales reps that are truly still getting in the doors with the buyers face to face and like BJ come meet me here have this meeting with me face to face we don't get that a lot you know that's also going back to start up CPG World that's cool that they do that because we don't get that a lot especially covid removed that from everybody's really you know details what's the best way for newer brands to diligence and to understand if they really have those deep relationships that really are gonna be able to help you make some inroads oh my gosh man it is it's tough it's hard you know because you want help and you wanna trust that what that person saying is gonna be delivered and and and a lot of times it's it's management right it goes down to expectations and it's got to be realistic like Jade Street Consulting that lady crushes critical mass that dude crushes like you talk about greenspoon they do great job PMI like my buddy's brand Bill Wyland is a good friend of mine just sold a platform like they crush but those people are all massive like they're massive and like I'm not ready for that yet so right I have to figure out you know what is my real route to market like we had a girl in LA she got deported um so we moved our our focus to Austin right it was like Austin made a lot of sense for us and I was down there a lot I had a rep down there I couldn't afford him anymore so I just kept trying to go down there and then it was like I can't touch this brand every day so that now that I can touch it in Chicago it's really really helpful for me to be able to touch it so I think that's the first thing is like that you are an arms reach or somebody on your team is an arms reach from where that broker is actually executing and if you're not then it's just not it's really not for you and don't think it is just cause Wegmans is the top place you wanna be or H E B is the top place you wanna be like if you don't have someone touching those stores or have base makers then just don't do it you know yeah totally yeah that makes a lot of sense I got one one more question for you or just kind of trends in general in the CPG space overall definitely particularly got excited about lately or kind of things you're tracking closely yeah I mean look I love Wild Wonder I love DV's popsicles my son's addicted to them I love I love Little Spoon cause I think it really relates to like what your your life is I love cloud popcorn I'm I'm really obviously a beverage geek I I love my Coke I made a Cola it's I think it's the best I'll send it all to you shoot me your your address and you tell me obviously but I love what like Vital Coco's still doing and I'm not trying to like toot their horn but like they're a group that they had supply chain issues and they just blew everybody off the map like their group projects what they're doing then they created treats then they created milk then they created all these different you know um the creamer I like the the non dairy creamers my wife has our whole fridge full of these non dairy creamers from minor figures and califia who else do I love I mean like anything Ken Sadowski touches I love right like that thing he has a his hands in a lot of different things what was he talking about I love the little shots that give you a feel I'm even you know I'm more into the the gummies and stuff and with this client here with herb like they're doing really really cool stuff in the nootropics space and people are really pushing the envelope you talk about like supplements like I don't the grunts thing kind of is like amazing to me right like so is the athletic greens thing totally but it's obviously for that boomer person right who like wouldn't be able to get into it so I wish I would have looked in this question cause I have so many fun brands that I love I don't know you got you named a bunch of them that was great yeah yeah now I mean I'm a geek right like my my wife's only allowed to drink certain drinks cause I have I have rules but yeah man I'm pretty pretty I I love the beverage space right now for sure it's it's exciting well yeah it's been great BJ definitely got a lot of great insights here what's the best place for people to follow along with you and all your expertise and then what's the best place these days for people to follow along with holy water as well yeah I mean LinkedIn is big you know for me obviously I'm there easily accessible I love to to reach out I I was teaching entrepreneurialism in a university setting for the last year until I started you know evolving more into the the consulting space but where we're at online with Enjoy Holy water.com um you know we've gotten some really good we get really low traffic it's crazy we'll get like 30 people a day but we'll get 10 sales so that's like really where and Amazon is where you can buy holy water right now and try the Cola look if you love Cola use the code ALWAYS50 it's half off so yeah it's an amazing call it'll change your life that's been great BJ I really appreciate the time I think that's it I appreciate you man thank you yeah for sure that's the pod I mean you just kind of touched on it a little bit I'm just kind of curious from a brand identity and a brand design standpoint how important is it to really dig into the culture for maybe some other entrepreneurs immerse yourself and learn something quickly like get break even that way also proves the numbers I don't know what is going on have you found that the consumer groups that purchase your THC skews how are you kind of thinking about this you don't necessarily really feel anything what you hear from people or hear build over time which I get why you kind of talked about it a bit the functional beverage category landscape look like in and how has it evolved over the past few years from your perspective how can a brand truly actually really validate a broker's retail relationships that you've been kind of