William Underwood - Inside the CPG Talent Market

On this episode, we're joined by William Underwood, Founder of Talent Brew - the CPG-focused recruiting and headhunting firm helping scaling beverage and food brands find the right talent through competitive-set focused outreach.

William breaks down what the CPG talent market looks like right now. With post-COVID reorgs, acquisitions, and layoffs, brands have historic access to exceptional talent, but many don't know how to vet or retain it. 

We get into the roles trending up, from DTC and TikTok Shop managers to channel-specific account roles, and why AI fluency is becoming a must-have even though most CPG brands don't know exactly what that hire looks like yet.

We also dig into the hiring roadmap for scaling brands - who to hire first, and the common traps like chasing logos on resumes and inflating titles too early.

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Episode Highlights:

🍳 From executive chef to CPG recruiter (the origin story)
🍺 Launching a beer-focused firm during the worst market since Prohibition
📊 Why it's a historic buyer's market for CPG talent right now
🛒 Roles trending up: DTC, TikTok Shop, channel-specific managers
🤖 AI fluency as an emerging (but undefined) hiring requirement
💸 The real cost of a bad hire (financial, emotional, mental bandwidth)
🎯 Competitive set focused recruiting (50-100 companies, 3 referrals per placement)
⚠️ The trap of chasing logos and inflating titles too early
🔥 "Fire in their belly, throwing elbows, and polish"
🏢 Culture = what your employees do that you don't talk about
🧹 How to fix a struggling culture (and when to fire fast)
👀 Brands he's watching: Recess, Trip, Go Brewing, Throne Sport Coffee

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Table of Contents:

00:00 – Intro
00:44 – William's origin story (from executive chef to recruiting)
02:55 – Expanding from craft beer to broader CPG
03:50 – The current CPG talent market (buyer's market)
05:30 – Roles trending up right now
07:00 – TikTok Shop and ecom hiring challenges
08:31 – AI fluency in CPG hiring
10:22 – The real cost of a bad hire
11:45 – Smart hiring roadmap for scaling brands
14:00 – Common founder hiring mistakes (logos and titles)
15:55 – Generalist vs. specialist (and leveraging agencies)
17:00 – Competitive set focused recruiting explained
19:55 – Red flags when evaluating a recruiting firm
22:07 – Interview questions that actually work (go past tense)
25:02 – What brands want vs. what they actually need in a hire
26:36 – Ideal candidate profiles by revenue stage
29:00 – Building and maintaining company culture
33:20 – Brands and trends William is watching
35:00 – Where to find William and Talent Brew

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Links:

Talent Brew – https://mytalentbrew.com/
Follow William on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-underwood-405677245/
Follow Talent Brew on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/mytalent-brew/
Follow me on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/

For help with CPG production design - packaging and label design, product renders, POS assets, retail media assets, quick-turn sales and marketing assets and all the other work that bogs down creative teams - check out https://www.kitprint.co/.

Shout out to my friends over at Glimpse, the go-to partner for automating retail-related back-office operations and unlocking margin trapped in invalid fees and manual processes.

Transcript

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welcome to shelf help today we're speaking with William Underwood founder of Talent Brew the recruiting and headhunter firm pretty much exclusively focused on CPG and hospitality has a really good sense of talent out there in the market what brands are looking for so super excited to chat about all all things recruiting and um yeah first off for the listeners William ones that maybe aren't as familiar with with talent brew love to just kind of start off getting the quick lay of the land just in terms of origin story why behind the business and why you initially started it and then the kind of core services you guys offer types of brands you work with and maybe kind of what's what's a bit unique about talent brew within the broader recruiting headhunting space and then we'll go from there yeah absolutely so yeah I think it's easiest to understand actually with with my background so I actually have a background as an executive chef and director of operations working in fine dining which you know long long story short my wife and I decided we're gonna start a family and so needed to pivot out of the crazy crazy lifestyle that comes along with being a chef and wound up in recruiting in the in the space kind of just fell fell backwards into it almost and and instantly loved it I think when I was a chef what I was best at was avoiding churn in in staff so I could keep a steady staff I I kind of intuitively understood how to how to hire and and hire good people that lasted with the organization and could contribute in a unique way and kind of be able to build our teams around that so kind of had a natural inclination to do that I think I tribute a lot of that to my my father who's worked for an organizational and leadership development with non profits forever so I kind of just been a sponge next to him even as a young kid listening on on his calls um turns out that's like actually a transferable skill set which when you're a chef there's not many you know nobody nobody cares how how well you can you can dice onions when you're looking for like a real world uh position and so so yeah did did well working for a couple private firms in that space um and there's a there's a few things that I picked up on kind of and and became aware of in recruiting as a whole that I knew like I like I don't that doesn't resonate with me I wanna do things a little bit differently and so um really developed a passion specifically for beverage craft beer specifically when I was working in hospitality I'm based in Charlotte North Carolina so it's a great Great Beer State launched the firm officially launched November 2023 exclusively focused on beer actually and so when I started it was exclusively craft beer focused uh you know November 2023 arguably worst time since prohibition in the United States to to open a staffing firm focused on beverage alcohol but I feel very grateful and blessed to really gained some excellent clients that first year and really just snowballed the firm within I would say mid mid late 24 I was expanding outside of just beer into all three tiers of beverage alcohol and then broad CPG so hydration energy drink companies agencies that support CPG companies and and yeah I think that that's really the origin story of the firm I think at a high level you know we tend to work with founder LED organizations on a on a passion level for me that's what I love that's what makes me excited about doing this every day is when I get to work with founders who who have a mission and in a passion and tend to work with scaling beverage brand startups scale UPS PE and VC backed organizations as well as more established small and medium sized businesses relatively strong uh commercial lean to our firm I would say about 70% of the the requisitions we receive are for sales and marketing focus positions at this point I spend most of my time focused on executive level VP CEO level searches and then kind of have the firm broken out to my amazing team which is basically broken down by beverage alcohol EPG coffee and then hospitality now which is just a new a new venture starting this year broader CPG hiring landscape just looks like right now in today's market in terms of what the current talent market looks like is it you know and is it more of a I want to call it a buyer's or a seller's market right now that's exactly the vernacular I use actually so it's it's perfect but it is it's a buyer's market for sure companies if you're in CPG and you're hiring right now you have a a like probably historic advantage in access to exceptional talent particularly if you're in a regulated category alcohol or cannabis but with so much you know turbulence post covid so many reorgs acquisitions layoffs there's just there's excellent talent out there that's available I won't get into it now but that that can create it will create actually a long term ripple effect of turnover in organizations that don't know how to hire that talent appropriately and don't know how to to vet it and make sure that they've got their heels dug in because at the executive level I mean I I know some phenomenal executives who are going on a year of unemployment within the spirits industry specific of spirits and wine specifically and you know that that frankly they're willing to take a pay cut to get back to work they have to get back to work but so many of these people who are willing to do that and have kind of been beat down by the you know by the buyer's market are also gonna spend as much time searching for their next role to bring them back kind of level set them in terms of comp and seniority level and so I think for brands that are looking to hire it's easy to have shiny object syndrome right now and like chase that that amazing the amazing logos on that candidate's resume and all of that but you have to remember like if it's too good to be true it's probably too good to be true and you have fire for your brand right now yeah totally that's a good yeah that's a that's a good level set are brands like most urgently hiring for right now and kind of what's trending up and on the flip side maybe what's kind of trending down if anything yeah there there's three things that I've I've really noticed we'll see if I can remember all three as I go along but the the first one is like a shifting route to market so beer wholesalers particularly they they have as beer has declined alcohol in general has declined they're keeping their trucks full so whether they're selling you know satanic soda water or coconut water or hydration drinks whatever it's providing opportunities for suppliers to leverage different DSD routes that maybe historically they wouldn't have um intuitively leaned into so that's the one thing is that um there's a shift in route to market so for sales people gdrink companies don't just need folks who can manage you know unify and and Cahill they need people who can are familiar with the Bud network and um can go can go uh blue or red the second thing is there's obviously uh a massive influx of brands that are primarily DTC and are leveraging social media channels as their primary really Salesforce and so whether it's media buyer positions TikTok Shop bless you TikTok shop managers bless you again or any any really any ECOM focus position that that's kind of a hot a hot topic right now and can be very challenging to fill those roles because TikTok Shop has had a marketplace for what really just a couple years and so to find somebody who has the background who's done that before and who's proven is is really challenging add on like a constantly shifting landscape of what works in paid ads and and what doesn't work and and it's it becomes messy the third thing I've noticed is brands getting really specific on their channel focus so I think actually I'm seeing it two ways brands get very specific on their channel focus and they're like we're looking for you know convenience chain managers or or natural chain managers or channel managers excuse me that's one thing so so brands will be like very much rather than having like a a generalist managing accounts they really are getting in the weeds about like okay this candidate is great at doing this and they have these relationships and that's that's the channel they're gonna focus on and I'm also seeing actually exactly the flip side of that with brands that are expanding quickly they're no longer hiring necessarily regional uh sales teams they're hiring chain account teams that focused on their local geography um I think pretty early post covid with uh businesses being built less on premise and more in in retail and in grocery or or convenience or whatever some brands I'm seeing are again they'll only hire chain account managers focus on a specific territory and then they're managing distribution and the the buyer relationships and so that's kind of a a weird split I think there's a time and place for both strategies but at a high level I think those are the most prominent roles I'm seeing actively being hired and like the maybe some of the most challenging positions to fill right now yeah I know I think CPG is side of things where your clients are starting to require some level of like AI fluency I I agree that CPG does maybe seem a bit behind but I think CPG's always been a relationship business right yeah that's where our slogan comes from the the the beverage people people soon to be the food and beverage people people but yeah I was actually talking with the founder recently who it was actually for ops role and he was looking for somebody who and the snop side of things could tie their organization together with AI tools and I'm like okay well talk to me about what does that look like what what tools are they using and he's like that's up to the candidate right that I think that that's it's not it's not like they're walking into a to a ERP system like tech forward or whatever it's like it's like architects engineers people who can like develop that and who are just like frankly nerds sorry if you're listening you're one of those people but like have that that talent and ability to kind of look at like okay what what needs to be addressed here and how am I gonna do that um I think that's that's the the lay of the land I think there's tremendous opportunities in it I think we'll see tools that are more broadly accepted arise soon that are that are AI forward and and designed for CPG operators and maybe solve multiple multiple yeah I think that's that's the biggest thing I've seen is like anybody who's hiring for that doesn't know exactly what they're hiring for because it doesn't exist yet if it does there's a couple of those candidates and I've spoken to those candidates and they're doing very well for themselves and and know exactly what they want next so yeah it's a it's a really exciting time I think any brand should be leaning into that and even if it's not a formal position with the company brands should take note of who they have in their organization that's leveraging technology and AI in innovative ways and and look at how they might be able to leverage that across their across their organization yeah brand especially one that that's growing quickly yeah I mean it's so it's so hard to put a number on it right it's so hard to know because based on seniority level like people can do a lot of damage really quickly and then like what is the cost of somebody who meets quota versus the opportunity of finding somebody and being throw in your search and finding somebody who can blow quota out of the water certainly I think really for early stage companies rather than just the the financial impact of maybe keeping somebody who wasn't working out on salary for six months you have to look at like what's the bandwidth emotionally and mentally that the founder is having to deal with having somebody on the organization that's not pulling their weight and that's not working out and also like what's what's the opportunity cost in that six months where you've had somebody mediocre in the role who if you had if you had gotten it right that first time you know where where would that portion of the organization be whether it's sales marketing whatever had they had the correct leadership six months ago yeah so again it's like it's an impossible equation to put a dollar sign on usually I know a lot of firms like to throw out you know if a bad hire will cost you double the the first year salary or or whatever and it's like OK for for for what position and every every organization is different every hire is different and and the damage or just lack of performance from any candidate is always gonna always gonna shift yeah totally um when you mention you mostly you really like to work with with founders for up and coming CBG founders that are scaling let's just say from 1 million to 10 million in revenue where they're starting to really you know beef up the team seems like one of the biggest decisions they face like who to hire and when from your perspective and what you found what does a smart hiring roadmap look like for like an early stage let's just say beverage brand who who are like the typically the first two to three critical hires that they should probably be be looking at in today's market yeah I think so much of that depends on how they retail and what their route to market is obviously um if it's an online brand generally the first hire actually tends to be more operations focused 3PL like agency fluency and and that type of thing whereas if it's if it's a brand going to market more the traditional way and like you know gonna gonna partner with a distributor and selling chain accounts they might be somebody who's more commercially focused I think the question I always ask founders at that stage because yeah sometimes I'm working with founders and they're like do I hire a CEO right now do I hire like a marketing intern like what do I even like what's the what's the right path here and I just asked them how are you spending your time right now like what are the things that are taking the most of your time what are you doing right now that you suck at cause we all have things that we're just bad at yeah and and generally the way I love to see brands hire is the that early stage like key hire say this is somebody like at a senior level maybe director plus they need to have like the same fire in their belly and and motivation as the founder and at least share a couple of key strengths simultaneously they need to have like a separate thing set of things that they're just excellent at and that's intuitive and natural for them and I I think at that early stage what you need to be asking yourself when you're hiring somebody is like can I can I work organically with this person can they can they pick up my slack and can they keep pace with me will things be able to be communicated only by being cc'd on an email and being implied that like hey you're gonna pick up the ball here um and and I think that that's that's that's the the framework kind of I like to use is just understanding hey what's weighing you down right now what are you good at and what's keeping you from spending time at what you're good at and how do we hire to support that yeah that's great and I guess kind of on the flip side what are um what are some of the more common ways that you see founders can trip themselves up when it comes to building their team in those earlier days yeah I think I think brands that look at logos instead of individuals that look at like hey where did you work and and get excited about that yeah it's it's great to pull somebody from Congo let's say prime but you're not prime you know at least at least not yet and if they joined if they joined two years ago that business sure maybe that's like not the right business to use for this analogy the more the more I think about it somebody from a brand like that that's had massive success did did they work there when it was like out of the founder's garage or you know when when it was bootstrap like pre seed whatever it is if they did like you know double click on that but also that more than likely that person is is out of range out of budget for the founders at that you know one million stage so not to be too far from the from the question here but I I think that's one of the biggest mistakes I see is what's the what's the who who's the individual how are they gonna be able to compliment my strengths and what is what is their unique genius that I'll be able to implement and glean from in my business the other thing which is like two edged sword is uh titles giving somebody a VP or C sweet title when they don't necessarily have a a team under them and they're not proven at that level I think it's it's really risky you're kind of setting yourself up for failure and turnover in part because there's nowhere for that candidate to go from there you know like if if you hire somebody in who was a director now as a as a chief sales officer there's not a lot of room for growth with that that organization all of the growth is gonna happen beneath them and they may or may not be ready for it and there's not much to be able to keep them incentivized other than the growth of the company so unless it's a co founder I think that that can be a risky move and something that I frequently see totally yeah that makes sense how do you think about um a more scrappy journalist which I think is generally the earlier you are the more that that often makes sense versus bringing in a specialist before you know the brand might think that they're ready and maybe was to really hire a specialist but they really needed a scrappy more scrappy journalist like how do you think about that trade off and in the stage with the company company is at sure I think if we're talking like first couple of hires usually a generalist is the way to go you just need somebody who can get stuff done and and free up is like what I always think about is like is this person gonna create bandwidth from you or take it if they take it just don't hire the person it's that simple also I think there's so many great agency partners and firms I think of Countermeasures Corporation CMC at you know can be the specialist that you need them to be without having to without having to expand headcount and so I think now actually a really crucial skill set is how well has this person managed brokerages before third party services and agencies that I think there's more opportunity to leverage those successfully now than ever particularly at an early stage but there's also like a right way to manage those relationships and you need somebody who can do that yup totally that makes sense when it comes to actually finding the ideal candidate I'm pretty sure when we chatted a bit ago you you I think you emphasized something called a competitive set focused outreach to more like passive talent so I say I always say we're a competitive set focused practice so what that means is and like not not to contradict myself here but we very much recruit based on the logos that are on somebody's resume we're not we're not a skill set based recruiting firm most of the time there are exceptions to that the AI analogy we talked about earlier is a good example where we might just be looking for somebody with specific tools or skill sets they're familiar with more often than not when we begin a search if a hydration client is coming to us and looking for a national account manager natural channel focus what we're going to do is compile a list usually between 50 and 100 companies that are direct competitors of them or or close to a direct competitor so might be you know this is a hydration company and we're looking at energy drink company something like that but generally we in that case we wanna we wanna have a shared fire call point and then we use our our back in technology to pull in profiles of generally 20 to 30 candidates who have worked with direct competitors or close to direct competitors of our client based generally on the stage that those brands were in when that candidate worked there cause again like somebody who's working for a hundred million dollar brand might be exciting but are they gonna have like be able to be as multifaceted as somebody who's you know in that same position for a for a ten million dollar brand they're very different profiles and so for us we call it kissing frogs right and we don't ever post the job ads we we make our list of people we do direct outreach to those candidates usually who are currently employed with our clients competitors and begin the conversations and then and then kind of figure out okay this is the best fit for you based on the fact that they have these attributes in their personality or or they've done this before they they're familiar with this operating system um and again I think you know what again we call it kissing frogs just talking to those candidates figuring out hey which which one's gonna be the prince I think when you're posting job ads which is the the anti competitive set focus thing anybody can come in like you're not just kissing frogs anymore you're kissing like jellyfish and like everything else in the ocean uh yeah that's very much with that method we've averaged three candidate referrals per placement so generally we are we are sending no more than three resumes to our client to get a candidate successfully placed most other firms I'm familiar with are 10 to 20 referrals per placement and so the amount of interview and legwork that the client has to do to find that one great hire is so much higher whenever the firm isn't specialized and doesn't know exactly what they need and what they're looking for um and so yeah that's that's to expand on that kind of competitive set focused practice that that's what that means for us yeah a um you know recruiting firm like yours and that should will give a sign that a a firm or a recruiter might not be the right fit for a brand for whatever reason yeah I think you wanna do business with good people again going back to why I wanted to to start this firm in the first place recruiters obviously have a horrible reputation I always say it's like it's like um you know blue collar workers and then salespeople and then drug dealers and then recruiters like that's just generally like the reputation how how they're ranked and I again I've experienced a lot of that first hand and the key kind of principle of my organization and and the way we run our practice is that we're just focused on on being humans right like our candidate experience is focused on did that like was that was that process transparent for them are we leading them on are we not responding to messages from them are we ghosting people like I like zero tolerance for any of that and so I think when especially when you're you're niche down like we are specifically within CBG like word gets out fast you know and I think that's what I attribute our our growth to as well is that like people have a positive experience working with us and they wanna they wanna share that the other thing to think about is I get I like why not use a specialist right like sure Robert Half or maybe some massive organization run phenomenal practices and and are known for you know delivering great talent but what's the likelihood that their Rolodex is as as niche down within CPG as a firm that's a specialist um and then I think the final thing I would look at is what's the speed what's the communication cadence how much is that firm requiring from you because it is a like generally I have a 24 hour communication rules with my clients hey whenever I send a candidate I need feedback in 24 hours otherwise like the search is gonna drag out and we're gonna waste both of our times if you don't feel like the if you feel like the firm is just taking on any work I would say that that's a that's a red flag and like you you want to work with a firm that is gonna you know get in the weeds with you and and be willing to like uh really you know hone in on exactly the profile you need and do whatever it takes to find that person to actually from a brand side perspective to actually getting the most out of their recruiter relationship as a hiring manager and making sure that they're gonna get really good candidates and and hire a really good person that's kind of on their side that they're actually need to be holding up their end of the bargain yeah so great question I think uh somebody once told me who was a very successful recruiting agency owner he's like recruiters are like they're like the the CIA like they have the I know I know generally when playoffs are gonna happen organization a couple months before it pops up on on Brewbound or whatever industry publication um because I'm I'm getting like people calling me saying like hey will some shady stuff's going on and like I I might I might need to find a new role here I think clients being willing to to have a conversation right like take it to I always want the relationship like I we can get deals closed right that that's fine whenever I want the relationship I want to work with brands that are looking for that long term and I think the ones that do that they just ask me questions hey hey what are you seeing here hey I saw this going on over at this organization any insight there's like so much that we hear that obviously we're not gonna just like throw out into the public but we're we're really close to the kind of heart and pulse of the industry and I think brands that are willing to put in time and building that relationship and partnership with our firm get so much more out of it than just like oh we got this placement they also got like oh our competitors about to lose their their spot in Kroger and you know we need we need to like put our foot on the gas trying to trying to uh grab that shelf space what questions should they be asking in the interview to figure out if someone has the skill set needed to kind of break through in in today's market yeah I think so many interview processes are based on what would you do questions how would you handle questions and that their future and they're like based on what the candidates tell tells you they they might or might not do in a in a imaginary scenario I think the the number one thing you can do to become a better interviewer um this case specifically for a marketing candidate is go past tense what did you do here like ask specific questions about where they worked what the environment was like and and when you start to get like the the gut feeling that like oh that result like we're kind of there right now or we need that to happen or we just had that happen last week and I wish we had you then like that those are the those are the questions that I think really get to the bottom of it is hey in your in your last position how did you handle this and there there can be times where you know confidential information is has to be guarded but generally anytime you ask a question about like who the person has been usually tells you the story of who they're gonna be and absolutely people can change and there's breakout opportunities for everybody and some people excel in those and some people fall flat on their face but I think always always always getting a a handle on what the candidate has actually done and contributed previously gives you and and whether or not they're even able to tell you that and track that tells you so much about how they're likely to succeed or not in the next position totally on that topic kind of a kind of say they want in a hire and what they believe they need in a hire versus maybe what what they actually need based on what you just wanting baked in relationships particularly with Boss Huge Pet the absolutely you need to understand how like you know quick trip works and what their what their reset cycle is like and whatever you need familiarity with that more importantly you need to be somebody who can identify opportunities and foster relationships from scratch because buyers rotate right distributor partners rotate we all know that hire the person that is going to represent your brand well and that resonates with you if you're a founder on the founder level if you are a you know C member on the the brand's identity level enough that no matter what changes happen they're they're the right person they like live eat breathe and and sleep your brand so huge pet peeve of mine is if we're if we're hiring a national account manager obviously we're gonna look for people who have managed those accounts before but when somebody and maybe maybe account management specifically is a poor example here but when you're only hiring somebody based on their relationships in fact I would say if a candidate is willing to be hired based on that there's a good chance that at some point a brand has done that before and their relationships their reputations probably start to get burned a little bit because not every brand is gonna be successful right totally look like for let's just say a you know a Bev ALC brand looking to get to you know next stage is like 10 million doing 100 million and they're looking to get to 500 million yeah I think I think there there's a couple things a couple phrases I I frequently use three I can think of fire in their belly right fire in their belly they gotta have passion pretty good that three million like you just gotta be passionate and like wake up and and jump out of bed every day the second one is is throwing elbows right is like can can you can you just get stuff done and and make it happen and and not require like people around you to push you forward and the third one is Polish either of those instances that my my ideal candidate profile is actually very similar um but the size of the brands they've worked for has changed and usually for that head of sales I love somebody who particularly for a beer brand I love somebody who has a a corporate foundation Anheuser Busch is my favorite and I'll catch a lot of flack for that I'm sure but I love people who started their career with Anheuser Busch because they have such a robust training uh such a robust training process and the talent they produce is so polished and well rounded and like understands the business the way it's supposed to be and then goes on to work for startup organizations and if there's a consistent track record of growth once they move to the startup world that tells you that they've got the polish from an organization like AB or Coca Cola or Heineken or any of those you know massive industry players and that they probably have the fire in the belly and and can throw elbows from working with a startup so that that like three to 10 phase I still love to see that somebody who really understands how to run a business properly from usually some sort of corporate foundation but then is is proven and has had been successful growing other startup brands and then when it's that 50 to 100 million it's looking at probably somebody who spent a little bit more time with the larger organizations and has been part of organizations that have scaled to that you know whatever not nine figure Mark companies I think I mean to name a few like long drink would be one I would look at Surfside some of those good boy I'm sorry not good boy I mean good boy too at this point but I was thinking of Happy Dad those are some of the organizations I would look at and be like okay if they've LED an executive level positions with those organizations again they have a tracker they can probably do it again but I I always love to see that corporate foundation for the for the head of or the the chief sales officer position from my experience is is a really hard thing to maintain as as a brand scales from your Vantage point like what what separates struggle to retain talent just cause the culture is not strong and you know it doesn't feel like they're part of something special or something they buy into yeah culture is all the things people do your employees do that you don't talk about right good or bad that's what culture it's all all the things that your employees do that aren't talked about that we don't say like oh we're whatever we have these these core values I'm not saying you shouldn't have those but pay attention to the things that are happening positive or negative that are not flagged not high priority that that is directly reflective of your culture how you're hiring and how you're you're leading your organization so it's really challenging I I'll always say like the the best candidate for your organization culturally is likely gonna be the best performer in the position even if even if their resume doesn't quite stack up against the the other ones to think of some of the clients I have who have the strongest culture candidates pick up on it immediately particularly if they've worked in one of those cultures before and they worked in a really positive culture they'll they'll do the first interview and be like I this is what I want yeah the the job's great the comp's great whatever but like I want to work with these people because we're cut from the same cloth so yeah it's like it if you're putting more focus on talking about what your culture is versus just living it every day then red flag major red flag you need to be intentional about setting the the parameters and the guardrails for like this is this is what makes our culture special more importantly you need to live that every single day and and people need to be able to tell you that about yourself and about your team without having to talk about it without you having to say this is who we are what we do yeah that's like it's a loaded a loaded question I could go on forever but I think I know for sure that's what jumps out to me in terms of maybe more like pointed question enough and and honest enough with themselves and know that their their culture does need some work but don't really know where to start from kind of your your point of view any things that come jump out top of mind that they can do to become build a more stronger culture and become a more attractive employer that you know when those candidates come in that first interview they leave right away and like this is the place I wanna be yeah I don't I don't wanna say go to therapy but I do think that founders have an obligation to be a great human first and foremost totally like I am positive if you can do that the the culture challenges you have will be more operational issues that that need to be addressed but when everybody knows that that the leader or organization is genuinely like a good human so much of the work is done already I would I think any founder who's really struggling with turnover just knowing like hey I've got people on this team that are like taking some liberties or or operating in ways that aren't aren't the way I want to do the first thing to do is like don't make an open conversation with your team there's a time and place to do that talk to people who you know are living that in their organization day to day other other founders mentors whatever talk to talk to a a recruiter who works with those organizations and can pinpoint and get get specific get specific like these are the things that I'm I'm I'm seeing like a negative attitude I'm seeing like emails from Friday being kicked off and not answered until Tuesday get specific on what the problems are talk to people who you know don't have those problems and hopefully did at some point previous and figure out where they're where they're rooted and once you figure out where they're rooted you address it openly with your team and you create a a yeah a humble open conversation around like hey these are some things I'm seeing that aren't good that's not how I want this brand to be represented that's not the environment I want my employees to be working in so let's let's work together in in resolving that and then fire fast you know when you have somebody who's just who's just a bad Apple Fire path don't don't hold on to them we we regularly conduct confidential searches meaning like hey we've got you know somebody on our team who is not working out and we need to find their replacement before we let them go we do that regularly and I think that's one of the most important things as as a founder you have to be willing to do because that person will eat up so much of your again emotional and mental emotional and mental bandwidth that you you you you can't lose it like you you can't spend it on on people who you know they're not gonna be any different six months from now or a year from now yeah totally agree last question for you will just cause you're in the space you see so many brands and whatnot any particular brands or just kind of trends across the the broader CBD world that I've just kind of piqued your interest lately or things that um you're particularly excited about and and tracking just cause they they seem interesting yeah I I got sober about to hit a year ago now so really into thank you I appreciate it really into the functional beverage space recess all time favorite of mine that product literally changed my life from a from a health standpoint trip I love Ohio is a favorite of mine um I love seeing these legacy brands make non alcoholic versions of their product to delirium what what is the name of that Hyuga brewery whatever but delirium tremens the beer they they released a Delirio A0 version of that I finally bought it at Whole Foods yesterday it's it's so good go brewing I love I've got a I've got a mixed pack of them in my refrigerator right now throne Sport coffee amazing product protein great great formulation love love the brand love the people behind it yeah I think I think those are I'm sure like I could rattle off forever my my refrigerator is just like constantly rotating through all these different brands but those are a few that kind of stand out to me right now it's fuzzy coffee carbonated coffee out of I haven't tried that one I've heard that one I'm gonna look that one up I'm gonna write that one down it's it's delicious it also like I think from a from a functional standpoint particularly being booze free now it's one of the few products that I drink and I'm like oh this is like a a very like well formulated kind of like uh buzz or or whatever from it it's got some functional ingredients in it and it's yeah it's just it's excellent I love it awesome love it yeah well it's been awesome really appreciate the time I think this has been super helpful I think especially for founders out there that are you know on a growth trajectory looking for hiring I think this should definitely be helpful what's the best place for for people to fall along with you and all your expertise in terms of hiring and then best place for people to fall along with everything that's going on with the firm as well yeah absolutely so LinkedIn pretty good my line of work I live on LinkedIn find me there I'm always posting probably something a little bit smart alecky but um follow me on LinkedIn and then the Talent Brew Company page as well to becoming more active particularly if you're listening to this and you're a job seeker reach out to me or somebody on my team who is attached to the vertical you live in whether that's alcohol coffee energy drinks whatever and and yeah we'd love to chat with you perfect awesome well I think that's a pod I'd love to just dig into what the roles that you're hiring for maybe especially in the marketing what is a bad hire actually cost a growing look like in practice let's say yeah exactly what should a brand look for when they're evaluating what are some like red flags that that a recruit what are the keys mismatch you see between what CPG brands in revenue versus a brand that's brands that have a really great culture from ones that