Steven Kessler - Building Steaz, Selling to Novamex, the Fractional Sales Model

On this episode, we're joined by Steven Kessler, Chief Sales Officer at Beyond Brands, the natural products consulting collective that acts as an outsourced management team for emerging CPG brands. 

Steven co-founded Steaz, the organic green tea brand behind the first USDA Organic certified soda, and scaled it across the natural channel and into Costco and Target before a 2016 exit to Novamex.

We dig into the Steaz journey, from spotting that carbonated soft drinks were sliding and deciding to carbonate green tea, to landing early yes's from UNFI and Whole Foods because nobody had done it before. We walk through the pivot to cans after a Whole Foods buyer told him to get rid of the bubbles, and the freight and sustainability math that made the switch obvious.

Steven gets candid about the "top line, baby" years, when he and co-founder Eric Schnell chased quarterly numbers and handed out discounts to push purchase orders until their investors finally cut them off. We talk about the turn toward a path to profitability, why margin and EBITDA decided the exit, and what acquirers like Novamex actually look for: trajectory and profit, not just a great product.

On the Beyond Brands side, Steven breaks down the fractional sales model, the channel, geography, and money framework he uses to slow founders down, and how to think like a retailer who treats every inch of shelf as real estate. He also shares the brands and categories he's watching right now.

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Episode Highlights:

🍵 Carbonating green tea to build a healthier soda
🏪 Why UNFI and Whole Foods said yes fast
🥫 Ditching glass bottles for cans (freight and sustainability)
📈 The "top line, baby" growth-at-all-costs trap
💸 When investors finally cut off the money
🧮 Turning toward margin, EBITDA, and profitability
🤝 Selling Steaz to Novamex in 2016
🎯 What acquirers really look for (trajectory and profit)
🧑‍🏫 Coming back to advise their own brand
🧭 The channel, geography, and money framework
🪑 Fractional sales vs hiring a $200K VP
🛒 Retail as a real estate game
👀 The brands and categories Steven is watching

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Table of Contents:

00:00 – Intro
01:14 – What Beyond Brands does
03:38 – The Steaz origin story
05:17 – Creating a healthy green tea soda
08:19 – The pivot to cans with Whole Foods
10:27 – Top line obsession and when investors pulled back
14:24 – Turning toward a path to profitability
15:46 – Deciding to sell, and why Novamex
17:58 – Preparing for an exit and what acquirers look for
19:36 – Coming back to advise their own brand
22:55 – The Beyond Brands fractional model
24:59 – Channel, geography, and money
27:32 – Fractional sales vs hiring a broker
30:55 – Questions to ask a fractional partner
32:41 – Being a good distributor partner
34:23 – How retail buyers really decide
37:29 – Cracking an off-cycle category review
39:02 – Brands, trends, and where to follow

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Links:

Beyond Brands – https://beyondbrands.org/
Follow Steven on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-kessler-aa9b445/
Beyond Brands on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/beyondbrands/
Follow me on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-martin-steinberg/

For help with CPG production design - packaging and label design, product renders, POS assets, retail media assets, quick-turn sales and marketing assets and all the other work that bogs down creative teams - check out https://www.kitprint.co/.

Shout out to my friends over at Glimpse, the go-to partner for automating retail-related back-office operations and unlocking margin trapped in invalid fees and manual processes.

Are you in the market for a new flexible packaging partner? Check out HD Packaging. Third-generation, family-owned and built for the needs of category leaders like Newman’s Own and A Dozen Cousins. Faster launches, lower costs, and no artwork fees. 

Transcript

0:02

speaking with Steven Kessler chief sales officer at Beyond Brands the natural products consulting collective behind I think some of the most iconic emerging CPG brands in the better for you space today Steven brings a whole host of experience uh over 30 years in in CPG co founded Stees back in January 2003 which we're gonna dive into scaled into the Costco Target natural channel eventually before being acquired by novamax in in 2016 and then even before Stees Steven was a VP Sales at Movado Country Life Vitamins and then ran Iceland Springs Natural division eventually all all the US so also launched a a mood 33 which was a THC sparkling beverage brand in California which market I know very well so bottom line definitely knows the space very well especially beverages so super excited to uh to dive into things yeah Steven just first off the listeners maybe that that aren't that familiar with beyond brands maybe just let's start just getting a quick lay of the land just in terms of kind of the origin story why I'm behind launching Beyond Brands roughly a decade ago and then you know what the firm kind of does for emerging CVG brands today and then we'll go from there great well thank you very much for inviting me to be on your podcast looking forward to it you know it it beyond brands that was started actually we're now in our 11th into our 11th year and we started out with five or six people and we're now up to a collective of 25 team members covering out we're an outsourced management organization providing entrepreneurs with conscious leadership and guidance in a responsible smarter safer faster way and the word responsible is probably the most important because most entrepreneurs like myself and you as well we run fast so we teach entrepreneurs to slow down because we have that entrepreneur's perspective and after starting uh Steve's back in technically 2002 but launching it in January 2003 Eric Chanel and I over the over the 14 year run made every mistake in the entrepreneurial book whether it be sales operations finance mostly finance and I think most entrepreneurs can say that but over the time we then realized once we sold Stees that you know what we've amassed all this knowledge as entrepreneurs within our collective do we start another brand or do we provide even the greater value even greater value by working with entrepreneurs especially in the natural food and beverage space and supplements etcetera which is still robust in a very big way that you know we realized let's share this knowledge so that these entrepreneurs don't make all the mistakes we did fortunately we created such a great brand that in all reality the consumer kept us in business while we were making all those mistakes but over time and surrounding ourselves with the right people both on the consultant end and on the investor end we started listening and with that it then transferred into creating this collective that we yet now have called Beyond Brands to again provide entrepreneurs with hopefully helping them realize their dreams in a smarter safer faster way talking about the the steez journey love to just get know walk me through that journey where you were in your career what the original product thesis was and look like in the early days before things really start to take off and then how things played out until until that ultimate exit and then that's a lot to unpack but gosh uh my co founder Eric Chanel and I um we were both at Country Life Vitamins and I was the VP Sales at Country Life Vitamins and Eric started on the vitamin side and then was promoted to run the tea division that we had that we owned and then what happened was over some time I left when we was recruited by Iceland Spring to run there bottled water importing group and eventually Eric reached out to me one day and said wanted to I'd like to sell water with you so to speak and so Eric came over to Iceland spring with me and the reason why that's important towards the Steve's journey is that was also the same time when carbonated soft drinks were sliding down alright sales were terrible which what which is what then prompted Coke to spend 4.2 billion buying Vitamin Water they knew that CSD wasn't gonna continue to accelerate at the rate they needed to so what was the next billion dollar category within beverage non carbonated well since Eric and I you know are geniuses we thought that's crazy let's create a healthy beverage a healthy soda and fortunately for us in the entrepreneurial journey timing is everything so we thought how do we create a healthy soda based on the ingredients without using the so yeah excuse me all of the artificial sweeteners that were out there at the time sodium benzoate and so on so that's also when the organic policy was just initiated in 2002 right and we thought you know what we've got something here the new organic policy like I said was just initiated green tea was on the media radar at the time it was all over the media with respect to slowing down the onset of cancerous tumors etcetera a great metabolizer and so on so we thought wow why not carbonate tea and obviously use all the um natural ingredients within that etcetera so sweetener wise and so on so that's when we thought hmm let's use green tea as the hook and carbonate it fast forward green tea soda we have something different nobody's done it because within the entrepreneurial world it's all about what is your why why do you exist why does the brand exist what as a brand are you bringing to a retailer for the retailer to say that's different right because if we brought another soda to the shelf it's just replacing another brand and therefore there's no incremental volume or value financially to the retailer sure so we thought OK great and Stees the name came from sparkling teas OK so we went to all of our retailer friends because we were in the natural food space already with Country Life Vitamins that we knew all the people at UNFI and Whole Foods that Adam legitimately everybody was saying yes and the reason why is you know what green tea soda never heard nobody's ever done it let's give it a shot and so that was a catalyst for us to if you will hit the green light and move forward and like I had mentioned the retailers were approving it giving it a shot and those glass bottles of raspberry orange all traditional flavors so we were giving the consumer what they wanted at the time but with a very very clean ingredient deck and nutrition facts panel and of course with the logos of organic fair trade certified the social responsibility was just coming into play at the time from an awareness standpoint so it was a we be Corp certified so we checked all the boxes and again timing and we made a great tasting beverage and moving even moving forward it wasn't until one of our friends from Whole Foods came up to me at a trade show we launched in 2000 January 2003 Expo West 2007 came up to me at a trade show and said get rid of the bubbles and we thought okay the the green tea sodas were doing the sparkling green teas we we went up changing it from um soda because that wasn't a good word anymore to sparkling green tea and they were doing well they were doing well enough to get on shelves how well was it turning it was doing okay but by then we had built a relationship with all of our customers because we had something different and at the same time we realized with Whole Foods as our number one account and them asking for non carbonated which we always wanted to get into you know what now's the time and so Whole Foods gave us a national approval in 16 ounce cans and the reason why we went to cans is because there was a better environmental story to it right use less fuel to manufacture can than a glass bottle you let use less fuel excuse me to melt down recycle a a a metal can versus a glass bottle you can with with respect to freight we were only able to get around 16 cases of glass bottle pallets of glass bottles on a full truck whereas cans we were able to get 30 200 cases on our truck so there are so many environmental efficiencies within the can and oh by the way Whole Foods asked for the can not the glass bottle and that's what got us into the non carbonated form of steez and from there that's when the trajectory of growth happened even faster leading to a successful exit so that's what got us started and uh it was other than next to having kids it was the most exciting and rewarding experience I've ever had in my life that I feel like was helpful would be helpful to call out for some other up and coming founders where he basically told me the story about you were calling your friends at Unifi saying hey I'll give you another 10% off invoice just so we can hit our numbers for the quarter as you guys were scaling up the brand and he kind of summed up this whole mindset as you know top line baby top line walk me through some of those kind of related learning lessons when investors basically started telling you hey like you had quoted papa Bear's not giving you more allowance anymore like what you and Eric did in those I don't know 48 hours after that meeting with that investors to yeah yeah Eric and I were superstar sales guys right when we worked for other people our goal is was to hit our quarterly numbers because when we hit our quarterly revenue numbers we made our bonuses and in full candor we did whatever we could do to drive that number totally right and after getting the approval from the company owners and financial wizards that ran that department if they were to approve the extra discount which in turn accelerated purchase orders we'd make our number totally and so we took that same mentality into running steez initially because we felt we were going to be the next Vitamin Water so we had to make we had to make things happen fast and we did that and we would call when when we knew that our the quarterly call with our investors we had to make sure we made our numbers because in hindsight now if you're not as as a brand and you brought in money and you don't hit your numbers that you presented to the investors right for them to give you the money they're no longer friendly meetings they're ugly meetings they're not fun and for those listening please listen to me all right be responsible in how you manage um the plan of of growth and then executing that plan so but what we did was after time of driving top line and like I said earlier the the consumer kept us in business while we were making all of these silly stupid mistakes right of calling Unifi back to your question and all of our friends at unify saying you know hey do me a favor alright I know we're on a 15% Oi right now alright but I need one more truck to make my number here can I'll give you another 10% at the time we thought we were being smart to drive that top line number and oh boy did we but think about what suffered the bottom line number so over the years and it's like I said earlier when surrounding ourselves with these smarter people who were admittedly knocking us on the head stop doing that at the early on come on we're great we're great sales guys and finally after a while and you alluded to it before when these smart business people all right throwing bricks at our head I always like as I always say said to us we're done all right no more no more money figure it out on your own and that's when it was a true dose of reality that we need to slow down and re evaluate how we're managing this business and like I had reference earlier Adam fortunately the consumer kept us in business because we made such a great product that still exists that they kept on buying it which obviously enabled us to go back to production because the purchase orders were coming in from the distributor so there was that cash flow and we needed to learn how to manage that cash flow in a much more responsible way and we did yeah over time what did that transition actually look like Tim get off that that treadmill of just growth at all costs we were we we we got smart enough in listening to the people that we surrounded ourselves with to start managing a path to profitability versus top line revenue right and that in in in the end was Paramount when it came to the exit because be it investors when it comes to investing and or acquisition it's all about that margin line alright and how well is it turning yeah it was turning extremely well we needed to improve the margin line alright and then the EBIT a line even more importantly actually so that we had enough cash to continue to run our business responsibly so it's tremendous it was a tremendous learning lesson for Eric and myself which in turn created two very responsible business people versus hot shit sales guys haha because we Learned which which one is more sustainable totally well yeah you guys obviously turned you know turned things around eventually sold to Nova Max in in 2016 thinking back you know 10 years this time about 10 years ago what was that conversation like between you and Eric when you decided okay you know it's time to sell this makes sense versus hey we're gonna go try to raise another round and and keep this train moving yeah it was a it was a big decision and again we had you know there were we had people on the cap table that we also had to be mindful of and also listening to these smart people our brand was accelerating at a rapid rate all right therefore valuation was high so we then had to evaluate the timing of then versus future and we were out of path to profitability which was therefore was a great turnaround for us so in listening to these smart people and then internalizing what the future looks like for Eric and myself we felt that it was the right time for Steve to exit to a strategic so at least we're putting our baby in the right hands within the beverage community to continue to grow the brand as effectively as we were on that topic of putting it in the right hands what what did you guys like or what did you see in Nova Max specifically that that got you excited well number one they're they're a beverage house novamex is the owner of the number one Mexican soda brand called Jarritos it's a very strong nine figure brand they produce everything on their own so they were a it's a vertically integrated operation well at the same time they had just started the the natural division called excuse me Nova Naturals and in 2,015 they purchased C2O Coconut water which was one of the fastest growing coconut waters at the time and it's still doing extremely well and they were looking to continue to expand and grow that division and so with that being said we were introduced to to them and we felt that strategically it would make the most sense because the depth the depth of the team they had within the Nova Naturals group which really was taking these founders of C2O who grew who were growing a brand very responsibly and then immersing Stees within that division we felt the brand would be in very good hands moving forward and then we would uh have a successful exit as well that makes sense for founders that are you know thinking about their starting having conversations about an exit it's looking like something you know the strong possibility if you know something is on the horizon and let's just say 12 to 18 months out what's I don't know something that they should for that outcome that's coming almost from the beginning they first have to be able to look in the mirror so to speak and truly determine what they have created and the and is it a value to number one the retail community and the consumer because if you can't say yes to either of those then it's not there's your the likelihood of a successful exit right um is not as great okay so with that being said the next components to determining whether or not you're going to have a successful exit are probably the two most important factors that an acquirer looks for is what's the trajectory of that of your brand and also what is the profitability that you are bringing to the acquirer now a group like Coke and some of the others Pepsis doesn't matter how profitable your brand is they're gonna improve the operational efficiencies and economic efficiencies of your production and operation because of how saw the size that they're bringing into the overall acquisition uh huh but initially they do wanna know the growth of the brand the category the brand is in and is there still room for even more growth once the purchase happens right totally exited the brand you came back as consulting partners at Nova Max yeah a bit curious about how that comeback it came about and what's it been what has it been like advising a brand that you built from scratch when hey it's a it's a fun story we were at Expo West actually I guess it was at this point 24 and we it's it's I'll make it quick but it's fun walked up to the Steve's booth because I wanted a I was thirsty so I had asked for a a can of my one of our top two selling skews blueberry pomegranate and there was a demo girl at the counter at the Steve's booth and she said well we're only giving out sampling cups and I thought you know what let me give it a shot and say if I can prove to you that I'm the co founder Steve will you give me a can and she looked at me like I had six heads and she called some guy over he looks at my badge he looks at her and he says he's the co founder hahaha and uh and he uh he uh he's he's the VP sales at the of both C2O and then did the division so I don't know my Alexis acting wonky here are you gonna know where so but anyway so so we just started talking and as as well as they were doing with the brand as co founders you know those are that's our baby and we're all gonna always gonna make sure you know are you are you are you baby how you babysitting are you taking care of and there are some things that we felt weren't happening the way we were doing it and that's okay that's always going to happen but within our you know everybody has an ego and so we started I started talking to them his name is Adam and we just started chatting and you know he said well you know we this is going really well and in that area I think we may need some help and and then I then shared with him this is what we do now this is what Eric and I do right so and to be able to come back as the co founders right and share with your team that like you just asked Adam what was the day one like what was the the the the green light or the catalyst right to initiate let's do this that may be of help yeah and so two or three months later we all agreed let's get together and make this happen and to answer your the other the second part of your question we're pinching ourselves right to now be able to work with a brand that is now all grown up think about it January 2003 right so we're now in May 26th how many brands last one two three four years yeah so we're super proud of that and at the same time it's been an amazing experience working with the Nova Naturals team and helping them fix things and also allowing us Eric and I to be immersed within their culture to work with them side by side as team members I love that yeah my my agency we work with Mike and Marissa and then the team at Nova Naturals they're they're awesome they're such a great team to work with yeah great people well yes shifting gears a little bit talking about beyond beyond brand side of things I definitely want to dive into the the fractional sales model a bit for some of those brands are feeling like they you know they could they're starting to feel like they're getting a place they could use some help like this walk me through I don't know to start just kind of like what week one you know week four and you know month three in looks like when a brand on boards with with beyond brands and what the kind of what the playbook looks like for the first yeah to say 90 days or so yeah I guess the first thing I the my first response is it's not a static playbook fair because depending on the brand you know we work we work with brands from I have an idea what do I do next to a brand that's doing five million and they just can't get over the hump right so incubating a lot of incubating but we also work with accelerating brands that need to get to the next level either leading to an exit or they just want to continue growing so like I said there is no static playbook within the incubating world a lot of the time it like I had reference earlier it's slowing down the entrepreneur okay because and even with an accelerator it it all balls down to money and how well you manage the money we as entrepreneurs are sarcastic and say we're drug addicts right every time there's a new idea we think we should do that right because we've got the best product the best new line of bottled water it deserves to be in every channel right away and oh nationally too right yeah of course I'm gonna I everybody target and CVS and Whole Foods and C store and food service but they forget how much it cost to drive down each of those roads because each of those roads there's one road in front of you which is called the channel right and then the distance is called the geography and how much money do you have yeah to put that gas in the car to get from your point a to point B and then if you start to stretch the channels now you're going horizontal so my first question is how much money do you have and that's not to scare you because like I said to you from the beginning for perspective entrepreneur right I've been there and I'm not saying I'm smarter than you this is probably out of the most important thing that we say we sell honesty at Beyond Brands because we've been there right it's not cocky yeah but please trust me that it's better to build a story of success within what you can afford remember how you when you were being raised live within your means you get your $5 a week allowance $10 whatever and then you when you blew it on gum and candy and all that and you go back and say mom dad I need more money and they said no we got mad same thing if you think about it yeah right so we're all about maintaining the two most important pillars at the beginning let's talk about your geographic goals and let's talk about your channel goals and then based on those two answers the next question is how much money do you have to effectively navigate those respective responsibilities geographic and channel yeah and it's an eye opener for entrepreneurs and like I said earlier in our conversation it was to us too totally is becoming more and more of a a uh pivotal part of the CPG space I think there's a definitely an economic component to it because within beyond brands we provide outsourced management services for four key management pillars if you will operations marketing sales and finance on the sales side which the chief sales officer beyond brands fancy title and I have four key team members that do everything exactly what I do but at the same time what we do say is that right now you can't afford a 200,000 dollar year VP sales plus benefits etcetera etcetera right including taxes and all that so you're going to get me at a fraction of the cost but I'm not a broker right I am going to provide you for a fraction of the cost everything within the job description of a sales manager you just pay me a monthly retainer right and then I will help guide you and the value that I bring is my 30+ years of experience and fortunately I do have a resume that provides the success that you would ask so prove to me how successful you were so that I can trust you and it's a very valid question or those are valid questions right but now that we get over that hurdle allow me to guide you in a very responsible and as we say in beyond branch conscious way right with um purpose and passion driven to deliver the results that you're looking for none of it's guaranteed because in the very end the consumers going to and they have to validate whether or not they like your product I as the head of your sales building out your go to market strategies hiring the broker groups around the country going to as much as I just shared with you early going to the trade shows right wearing your shirt using your email address so outward facing wise I am not Steven at Beyond Brands right I am Steven at naturalcatch dot com et cetera so that I build that model that you're looking for and hopefully the consumer pulls off the shelf so that eventually over time could be year two or three if we build this model successfully and you get the turn you're looking for right once we get on the shelves and implement the the most effective promotional programming etcetera and even on the marketing side when we bring on one of our marketing team members to then implement out of store marketing to build brand awareness you'll then be able to go back out there with the data that you need turn wise VPO Volume Pro Outlet to raise enough money to hire your own VPO sales three or four years from now if not sooner but in the meantime you are going to learn so much from me and my respective team members to help you understand the most effective way to manage the sales process of a CPG brand they've made that decision we are we feel like a fractional you know VP what's a a question or two or a series of questions that they should maybe they should be asking yeah at first I would certainly say even though we referenced it already what's your background what's your experience yes I saw it on LinkedIn and so on but tell me about it Steven share with me right I would say probably you know that's of of utmost importance and the other question is one that we ask brokers how many brands are you managing how much time are you gonna going to be able to give me remember with what I do as an outsourced VP hits of sales regional sales manager head of sales whatever you want to call me and being very objective I can only carry so many brands so that my time is not diluted per brand that you're not getting from me what you're expecting right and I too Learned that my on my own when I first started out doing this and which has been an incredibly rewarding experience similar to the what Eric and I did at the very beginning you know we were hot shot sales guys we could do anything we're better than everybody you know and I basically adopted the same mentality on I can carry as many brands as right good and after a while I realized that's it doesn't work that way and actually in in in full candor probably the brands didn't even realize it because they were getting you know nice guy Kessler who's out there hustling and doing trade shows with them but mentally I wasn't able to you know just parcel my brain out to carry almost up to a you know dozen different brands yeah totally so that number has been trimmed down dramatically so the value that they're they're getting from what they're paying me is definitely realized yeah totally you talked about hold their distributor accountable but then the other side I I think you know effective communication which applies to all facets of the business model and also understanding what you as a brand can afford to do just because a distributor asked you in certain cases may require you to participate in Program a B C or d it doesn't mean you have to say yes that also raises the question maybe that distributor isn't right for you at this particular time based on remember earlier on your geographic strategy and your channel strategy right eventually depending on the channel there are certain distributors that we all you will all you will definitely want to do business with but understanding what you have in the bank and what you can afford at the time will also help you determine which distributors are the most logical to work with at that time so that's number one and number two and I reference it at the beginning of answering your question communication speak to your be it if it's unify you unify SRM right whether they say yes or no if you don't ask you're not going to get if you don't even with a retailer I can't afford that but can we do this yeah things like that yeah totally yeah and any of these guys you don't have to go national with any of these larger distributors right away work it regionally which also then helps you manage your money more effectively yeah often get wrong or misunderstand when it comes to how retail buyers make decisions I I can get myself into trouble OK now similar to the way I I answered your distributor question communication with the buyers and so on but in the end a retailer number one and most importantly wants to know what's the why of your brand and many times we as entrepreneurs have such egos about our brand and the packaging is fantastic and it tastes wonderful it and the functional ingredients but number one within the category that you're looking to launch your brand in what's the CAGR like in that particular category is it growing it is is the category of value to the retailer entrepreneurs out there please do your homework I'm looking at the camera right now please do your homework before you get in front of a retailer okay and number two if you can mentally position yourselves as a retailer so that when you are pitching if you could think like a retailer think about how you would respond to what you're pitching right because again the retail has so many decisions they need to make so many brands are being pitched to them within the same category you're in what is the value that you are bringing them remove the ego but what is the value that your brand is bringing that retailer because in the end everybody retail is a real estate game that's all it is and whether the retailer owns the property or leases it they they need to make a profit on every inch of that property and if your brand is not delivering that don't be offended don't be mad they're gonna boot you yeah from a business perspective appreciate the job that they have to do yeah totally before you set foot into that office or on the virtual office prepare yourself effectively to share with them the why of your brand how your brand fits a void like I reference way earlier even if it's bottled water it's okay the bottled water category is booming and what are you bringing in to them within the liquid here that provides the slightest point of difference the buyer to say you know what that's different or something that is even incremental doesn't have to be so dramatically different but if it provides incremental value to an already fast growing category you're still going to win and deliver the VPO's volume per outlet the turn that the retailer's looking for and oh by the way the distributors also want to see turn right on a bit of a similar track if a retailer tells a brand hey we're not doing category reviews for you know what's the best way for brands to convince a retailer to to do an off cycle review and potentially open things up mid cycle let's say yeah it's a tough nut to crack right the retailer either they're open to all cycles and certainly the larger the retailer like a Kroger or an Albertsons Whole Foods they're more than likely not not going to have an off cycle every once in a while right unless it's a category that is just booming and they feel that yours even though your category your respective category isn't for another three to six months but the category that you're in is booming and you they feel that you will bring incremental value then yes and with that being said if you don't ask you don't even know if they're gonna say yes okay and in the meantime if nothing if they say no what I would still ask is it okay if I send you samples and and pepper you every once in a while with the success that we are having yeah just so you stay on their radar until it is time for that category review period totally and work with so many different brands see so many different trends and things happening in categories across the CPG space any particular brands that jump out to you or just trends in general that have got you particularly excited these days or things you're tracking especially closely I mean yeah I'm working with two of two brands in a very hot categories one is blobs blobs is a the new better for you gummy but we don't like to say better for you it's candy but we satisfy today's consumer with super low calorie great ingredients super low sugar clean ingredient deck but a great tasting soft chewy gummies with a fun name blobs and the other category that's very hot right now is the premium canned fish category right and I'm working with an amazing brand called Natural Catch which is a line of canned tuna pole and line caught very sustainable fishing story a vertically integrated family operation that's been in the fishing business for the past 50 years so those are two hot brands self serving of course but at the same time high integrity and I I think like I referenced earlier the bottled water category continues to boom and there are certainly functional aspects to it but I think the the source of the bottle water canned water is really big we're working with a brand called Free Bird now which is absolutely on fire so there's a lot out there and like I had referenced earlier today's retailer is constantly looking for what's going to be of incremental value to that category and or what can be one can create what can create a new category that the retailer had never even thought of like green tea soda back during the Steve's days totally along with you and all your expertise and then best place to follow along with all the expertise and things going on at Beyond Brands as well yeah I'm LinkedIn for sure as well and my my email address is Steven at beyondbrands dot org Perfect and our website is beyondbrands.org haha and in just in in parting as a as a as an entrepreneur slow down understand that it's a very responsible journey that you're about to embark on but please uh respect the fact that the financial aspect of the diligence that you need to implement in supporting your new brand that you created remember that brand is a child and you need to nurture it as a child it may sound hokey right now but you'll realize same thing as you you're birthing a child so please understand that you need to be responsible on how you manage the money to support it and the programs that you implement to help it grow and lastly effective communication just like when you raise a child effective communication with your broker partners your distributor partners and your retailer partners all of those components will help you succeed or not based on the value that the consumer in the end will determine whether or not you have something based on pull off the shelf that is a great way to close it I think that's awesome thanks thanks Steven I appreciate it I think that's the pod love to just have you how long is this call for because yeah if there's an exit on the horizon for a brand why do you feel like this fractional model is model is the best fit for my brand right now that other person on the other side of the table what's the best way for brands actually truly be the best partner to their distributor what do founders and brands another six months or so that's just you know how our some may disagree with me but I last question for you you come across and what's the best place for people to follow