Episode 1: ADDRESSING VIRGINIA'S DENTAL WORKFORCE CHALLENGES

Summary: In the inaugural episode of The Fulcrum podcast, hosted by Ryan Dunn and Paul Logan from the Virginia Dental Association (VDA), the focus is on the critical issue of workforce shortages in the dental sector in Virginia. They talk about how we got here and the VDA's workforce initiatives to open more educational pathways to become licensed as dental hygienists, address licensure bottlenecks, and support the expansion of academic programs. The hosts highlight various initiatives, including partnerships with community colleges and private institutions like Fortis College and innovative models in Southwest Virginia. They also stress the importance of member involvement in advisory boards and other support roles. The episode aims to inform VDA members and other stakeholders about ongoing strides and opportunities to address the dental workforce crisis and empower them to help address it.

Host: Ryan Dunn is the CEO of the Virginia Dental Association. Ryan has played major roles with four national and statewide Associations while also spending time working on Capitol Hill. When he’s not talking all things dental, he’s talking about his family and baseball–and sometimes both at the same time.

Guest: Paul Logan of the Virginia Dental Association. Paul focuses on member advocacy, developing resources for dental students and early career dentists, and working with a broad array of stakeholders to elevate and address Virginia’s dental workforce needs. Paul currently serves on the executive committee of the Coalition for Modernizing Dental Licensure and the College Board of J. Sargeant Reynolds Community College. Outside of work, he’s trying to keep up with his three- and six-year-old daughters.

Learn more about what the Virginia Dental Association is doing to address workforce issues at vadental.org/workforce

Credits:

• Host: Ryan Dunn
• Guest/Producer: Paul Logan
• Post-Production/Editor: Shannon Jacobs

Subscribe, share, and send your feedback and topic ideas to thefulcrumpodcast@vadental.org.

The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional, medical, or legal advice.

Music in this episode from Epidemic Sound

Transcript

Paul Logan: 0:00

26, 900 Virginians work in dental offices. We are one of the top destinations for early career dentists, and have far more dentists per population than the national average. But many Virginians face long waits for routine, preventative care in a dental office, and it's directly tied to the availability of our allied dental workforce, and the narrow paths that currently exist for many Virginians interested in those essential roles. It's a national challenge, and not unique to dentistry, but one we must address to allow dentists to practice a preventative model of dentistry. Today, we'll talk about the efforts underway to address workforce challenges, a new dental hygiene program starting in Richmond, and how VDA member dentists can get involved in supporting the expansion of these needed education programs and pathways. Welcome to The Fulcrum, a VDA podcast.

Ryan Dunn: 0:57

Welcome to the first VDA podcast. We are calling this The Fulcrum. I am Ryan Dunn, the CEO here at the Virginia Dental Association. And joining us today is, Paul Logan, also with the VDA. Hi, Paul.

Paul Logan: 1:12

Hey Ryan glad to be here.

Ryan Dunn: 1:14

So we are trying something different. This is something we have talked about doing for quite a while. But in doing a podcast, we think it'll be an opportunity for us to be able to better communicate some of the things that just quite frankly are too difficult to put into an article or to put into an email. And this is better way for us to get conversation going. But Paul, why are we calling it The Fulcrum?

Paul Logan: 1:38

Well, I wish I could take credit for it. It was actually Karen Wood in our office came up with this idea. Karen oversees the VDA Member Perks. She suggested a fulcrum because it really, it's that support point that anchors the hand and instrument to the patient. And in the context of a podcast, we wanted to say just whatever topic we're going to take on, that's going to be the theme that is going to be anchored in that touch point between the provider and the patient

Ryan Dunn: 2:05

Absolutely. And that's the idea. this won't always look the same. This won't have the same content every week.

Paul Logan: 2:12

Before you tune out, I am not going to be in all of these.

Ryan Dunn: 2:15

Neither will I. That's the plan at least. Right. We want to give some unique perspectives on some human interest stories from our members. We'd want to be able to talk about the legislative session and in a conversation about it. Specifically when it comes to something like legislation or a bill and how it came to be and what's the story behind it. Those are just things that quite honestly you cannot capture in, a word document that someone's typing up at their desk. We're excited for this to be the first and I think it's an important one though for us to really bring to our membership. something that we hear all the time, and everybody is very concerned about his workforce. And so that's what our focus is today is going to be revolving workforce. Big topic. It has been one of the most focused on issues for the VDA for the past two plus years now. Dr. Cindy Southern, when she was president, took on the VDA workforce council. That brought together industry leaders brought together workforce folks from the Virginia Community College System from the governor's office to bring all those people together to get a grasp on just what we knew was already bad but also to bring a lot of the same voices around the same table. So that that is two plus years ago that that has happened um, we have been working pretty tirelessly at this every day and Paul you wake up every day taking on the workforce issues while everybody here at the VDA is marching to that drum, Paul is the one really spearheading it. So thank you very much for all of your work on this, but I want to just talk a little bit about it. we're going to focus on workforce in this episode. But as we look at the allied dental workforce, just how far off, from where we need to be. Are we where do we stand Paul?

Paul Logan: 4:02

Sure. So stepping back a little bit, I'd like to say just. Workforce is a big topic and just want to set the expectation for this conversation. We're not going to be able to cover everything in the 30 minutes that we're going to be talking today. Workforce as you mentioned Dr. Cindy Southern and the effort that she led, presented to the VDA House of Delegates last year. We really have four main buckets of activity. The first is research and data. That's part of what she presented. We have to have a foundation of accurate and compelling data to have a conversation about the challenges that we know all of our members are feeling every day and what we can do about them. Hand in hand with the research and data is actually getting it out there to members of the public and decision-makers in state and local government. Number two is supporting programs that are starting up, expanding, or at risk of contracting. These are not easy programs to run and administer, and different programs are facing different challenges, but we need to be there to support them, understand what they need, and be able to help provide that. Number three is policy and regulations at the state level. As well as with accreditors, making sure that where we can, we're eliminating any unnecessary barriers to licensure and entering the dental workforce while preserving standards that protect patient safety. And number four is direct support to connect member dentists who are hiring with potential job seekers, think career fairs, the VDA's career center, outreach to high schoolers, middle schoolers, and counselors on the opportunities that exist within dental careers. Now going back to your question, how far off are we from where we need to be? There are different ways to measure just how far we are. And we have new state level data coming out in March, so I'm not going to go too far into the numbers, because they're about to change. But suffice to say, Virginia has one of the highest concentrations of dentists in the country, one of the lowest concentrations of dental hygienists. That statement has limited meaning because it's really a regional workforce issue, and different parts of the state are experiencing that differently. We have a really high concentration of dentists in Northern Virginia and more broadly in the urban crescent from Richmond down through, Tidewater. And the concentration of hygienists is also different in different parts of the state. Northern Virginia and Richmond really are feeling crisis levels of needing hygienists. Tidewater, while they still have some challenges, it's, not exactly the same in part because you have ODU, our largest dental hygiene program there, But what that workforce challenge means from patient perspective is there, there are a lot of long waits for service that's typically covered by, it's the only service that's fully covered by their dental insurance. And from early career dentist perspective, Dr. Dani Howell and I were speaking at an ASDA meeting, last month, they're dental students who are worried that they're going to be graduating and not able to practice at the top of their license because they can't hire or the practice they're working in can't find the team members to do those things and they have three, four hundred thousand in debt or more as they're starting their careers. It's a scary thing to be a dental student and be facing that. And so that's why we've been taking on this issue and I think today we can focus just on what is actually going on at some of these programs around the state.

Ryan Dunn: 7:37

Yeah, you know you hit on this earlier, there's really no silver bullet to impact workforce like we want it to be That's what it boils down to at the end of the day, when you say the word workforce, it becomes kind of one of those buzzwords that a lot of people know what that means to be like, uh, the workforce is short. Well, why is it short? Where is it coming from? Is there a bottleneck? Is there demand but nowhere for them to go? There a lot of different reasons that workforce has problems. I would say, something that's probably unique to our, profession, at the dental association is that, specifically, when it comes to dental hygienist, There's no shortage of demand, so in a lot of profession or job there is a shortage of people willing to do it, and, that's not the case here. We have more than enough interest from high school and recent graduates, even in folks in, college, there simply aren't enough seats in programs, around the Commonwealth. And that's not unique to us. that is a big problem all across country. But if you went to the doctor and there were more, doctors at the hospital than there were nurses, I think it would get people's attention more. So we've spent a lot of our time, trying to get the word out there that we have a problem. And it's an institutional problem, right? It's a problem with the community college system. Not that we don't have a great working relationship with them, but that those programs have been shrinking, or other avenues, whether it's CODA, being an impediment to growth or name those list of long things, whether they be on the federal level, state level, and to some degree on the private level. Take me through kind of where we are and what the problems really are around the programs in Virginia.

Paul Logan: 9:24

Sure, and just to put some numbers on what you just described in terms, you're absolutely right. There's a bottleneck and there's demand on the student side, demand on the employer side. Demand on the patient side for the services that are provided by hygienists. But VCU, for example, has 130 to 140 students applying each year for 20 slots in their program. Germana Community College, that's the newest hygiene program that started in Virginia. 71 students applying for five spots in that program. And what that means is you're turning away a lot of people who are dental assistants working in dental offices; want to advance their careers, but don't have a path to do that at least through an educational program in Virginia So what you see is a lot of those dental assistants who they like the practice practice likes them practice wants to support them in that next stage. They just don't have an option and some of them are leaving going to nursing school or going into another health profession or career and that's It's just a disservice to them. It's disruptive to the practice and it means that patients aren't able to get in for that timely preventative dental appointment.

Ryan Dunn: 10:41

I think one of the unique points we've been talking about, Paul, it is harder to get accepted into a dental hygiene program in Virginia. That it is to get accepted into the University of Virginia. That, is alarming. When you start to think about just how many applicants are applying and the percentage of which are able to actually enroll.

Paul Logan: 11:04

Well, and I should say the median hygienist is also earning more than the median graduate of UVA.

Ryan Dunn: 11:09

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Logan: 11:11

But as far as what's going on in programs around Virginia. I think one place we could start looking at Northern Virginia. NOVA has the largest community college program in Virginia today. They accept 32 students a year, and we've had a good relationship with NOVA. We had a big meeting with them, early last year talking about, what can they do to expand and going through some of their barriers. Something that's really exciting is they are actually building a new facility at their medical education campus at NOVA. right now their chief constraint is just space. And so as they build out that new campus, the plan is to allow their nursing program to move into that new facility, and that will free up space where they can then expand their hygiene program. Now, the bad news is that's not going to happen overnight. We're talking about. Several years until you get to a point where they're able to move into the new facility. Hygiene program is allowed to apply to CODA to expand their class, but that at least is a trajectory. So they recognize there's a demand. We have another meeting with the leadership coming up in, early April and they've been willing to engage with us. They, certainly recognize that there's a need and they're taking steps to help address that.

Ryan Dunn: 12:35

And they're not the only one in this. I mean, there, is a genuine acknowledgement of this and, willingness in some parts, to expand and grow. And you have some examples at UVA and in the, community college up that way, looking at, coming up with some kind of program there. That's fantastic. There is no one answer to this we can't fix this problem just at the community college level Because we have programs who are looking to expand those are gonna take a long time as we just said while at the same time We have contraction happening and a hygiene school closing at the Peninsula Community C ollege. So, you know, we got very much involved in that process. There are a lot of unique challenges when it comes to just talking about the community college system as a whole. And then the independence that each, community college has in and of itself. They have their own boards. They have their own ability to make decisions for their community, so to speak. But there's also a overarching their money comes from the state. So it is it's a challenge. We're not saying we're not gonna we're not playing there. We're making great strides there, but we've got to focus on more than that, right?

Paul Logan: 13:50

We do. And while we're still on that topic, I do want to say Chancellor David Doré, he's come in a few years ago. He has met with us several times. I've also been encouraged by hearing him talk about dental hygiene in rooms that I haven't been in. So he's not just saying it to us. That's right.

Ryan Dunn: 14:05

And has a track record in Arizona where he came from.

Paul Logan: 14:08

That's right. So I, am.

Ryan Dunn: 14:11

Hopeful.

Paul Logan: 14:11

Hopeful that we can address those programs, allow them to expand, create some pathways. I think what they have with the model at Virginia Western is something that they are hopeful to be able to build off of where you can have targeted growth. Through clinical that is remote from your didactic education there.

Ryan Dunn: 14:36

Right.

Paul Logan: 14:37

And that's I think a model that hopefully will allow Virginia Peninsula other programs to grow and expand. But then when we talk about other programs, we do have just an immediate need and one of the chief impediments is that it's an expensive program to run just, and it's not unique among health sciences programs at the community college level. But something that we have done is been working with Fortis College in Richmond, where this actually all started from when we called up Fortis. And we're going to a career exploration event in Richmond. It's called Mission Tomorrow sponsored by Chamber RVA. This was one of the directives of that group that Dr. Cindy Southern put together that today in Virginia, we do have demand for these programs. That may not always be the case. We need to be promoting dental careers to high schoolers, even as young as middle schoolers. So this program is something, there are 12, 000 middle schoolers in the greater Richmond area. Essentially every eighth grader in the greater Richmond area goes through the Raceway over three days. You have over a hundred employers, but up until a few years ago, there weren't any dental employers there. And so we partnered with Fortis College, did some, hands on age appropriate activities with them. But it was incredible. Just over the course of three days, you are not alone. You have this constant wave of middle schoolers coming through

Ryan Dunn: 16:06

With a million questions.

Paul Logan: 16:07

A lot of them have recently had or anticipating an experience with braces and want to talk about it. But through that, we were talking to Tamika Atkins, who at that time was the director of their dental assisting program is now Fortis's, Dean of Academic Education and just talking about the need for hygienists. And to her credit, she took that to their leadership and they have been going through the process where they've now formed a program advisory committee, and they are anticipating submitting an application to CODA within the next couple months to be able to start a program. One of the nice things about Fortis is this isn't their first hygiene program. They have four nationally. The closest of which is in Landover, Maryland. They have a track record, a curriculum.

Ryan Dunn: 16:59

Plug and play.

Paul Logan: 17:00

Exactly. And so that's something very exciting. I know our members in the Richmond area are very excited. And they've done the employer surveys. So for all the members in the Richmond area who filled one out, thank you. It's been a great collaborative partnership that we hope to see bear fruit very soon.

Ryan Dunn: 17:16

Absolutely. And no one action or one route is going to bring relief to the problem. So. Fortis stepping up has been a huge help. They're projecting a every six month enrollment of 15. So by 2028, I guess it is, or seven. We may be having the first class graduate and then every six months you're gonna have another 15 graduating is the goal I mean, obviously there may be attrition and things like that that happen everywhere. But that's amazing that has the ability to impact a market like Richmond in the very near future, and you know, none of those things, whether it be Northern Virginia's commitment to expand at their community college, or whether it is, the conversations happening in Charlottesville in that region between UVA and their community college system, or if it's Fortis actually opening new program, in the very near future, none of those would be taking place without the work that the VDA is doing through the Virginia Workforce Council that we set up because, you know, I know it, gets frustrating for our members who are struggling every day and we, feel for him because none of this moves the needle, instantly, right? I mean, none of it happens tomorrow, even as exciting as it is to have Fortis to say, we're going to do this. We're going to start this. We're going to have 15 graduating every six months. They still got to go through the CODA application. They still got to graduate the first class and then they got to fill it and graduate, every six months. Right? And so we know that the demand's there and we we're gonna Certainly stand by them and help them point. I'm saying is the education and bringing the awareness of the problem And reaching out to everyone whether it's dore in the community colleges or the the individual community colleges The staff and the faculty in the community colleges and the hygiene and the da programs have been a huge help Right, and they know the impediments better than anyone Anyone, right? And or whether it's Fortis and working with Tamika and their team, it has been fantastic. And there's still more to do, right? But we do want to at least acknowledge wins when we get them, though that win may not be felt tomorrow. That's a very good point. And, none of these. Programs happen by accident, they happen because dentists in the area have been closely involved, demanded them, helped to go through the process because these are not simple programs to establish or sustain and have supported them. Not to hit everybody with numbers, but I think the numbers tell a story, right? And if we know that market currently, as it says today, could handle 900 more hygienists. The market could absorb 900 hygienists if they came online tomorrow. and we are graduating currently 135 a year? Okay. yeah, we're never going to get out of that whole without a few more fortresses and a few more community colleges committing to saying, We're starting new programs. And that's a hard sell when we're not bringing the checkbook, to pay for that program. but we know that the demands there, so we, making people aware of it makes them easier to get into.

Paul Logan: 20:40

Right.

Ryan Dunn: 20:40

We are so grateful for Fortis' interest in this and they're gonna need help along the way from us, right? They're gonna need help with equipment, oversight application processes for those looking to join the program all of those type of things, so lots of opportunities for our members stay engaged and to also lend a hand.

Paul Logan: 21:00

That's right. And while we're on the Richmond area another new development that I'd love to highlight is no large part because of the advocacy of one of our members, Dr. Bill Munn. we're starting a new dental assisting program for adult education at the Henrico County Adult Education Center and their, campus at Regency Mall.

Ryan Dunn: 21:23

Another huge win.

Paul Logan: 21:24

If you're in the area and haven't been to Regency recently, it's an incredible campus is where. Their students themselves have renovated this entire wing for adult education and careers.

Ryan Dunn: 21:34

Does not look like the same mall that I grew up going to. It's very impressive. They, did an unbelievable job.

Paul Logan: 21:41

It is incredible when dentists and an institution like Henrico County Public Schools can work hand in hand, how quickly that can come together. We were having initial conversations about this maybe three months ago and like this week, I actually got to join them for their orientation of their new class that's starting class on Monday and just hearing their stories and their excitement about getting the foot in the door to this career.

Ryan Dunn: 22:12

Our members have been, very responsive, right? I mean, they need to be doing the externship as part of this program. And so our members, they jumped at the idea to say, sign me up. I want that person coming into my office and doing that externship there with the hope and understanding that they may have first opportunity to maybe give them a job, when they're done with the program. These are real world wins. sometimes at the VDA, it's hard to, quantify the wins when you're talking, in the General Assembly, legislature, killing a bill, that just would have made life worse for you is never usually a great space to be in of showing somebody, value or direct return on said investment. This is where the rubber is meeting the road. There are things really getting done, and are making a difference in the impact of it. Is there more to be done? Of course. Are there legislative things still to come? Possibly. We'll save that for another, podcast, because we're gonna deep dive into some of the things that are going on in other parts of the country that, the rules and the descriptions of, the scope of work for hygienists or, other avenues and just what's going on across the country is good for us to be aware of.

Paul Logan: 23:26

That's right. Going back to your point, these are things we are doing that can help influence the environment in which people are trying to get into these programs, people are graduating for these programs. For our members, where rubber really meets the road is I put out a listing and I can hire some of my team and if they can't do that, right, it's going to be frustrating and they, because they want to operate a practice. They know the importance of preventative dental care and that they want this as an element of their practice. They want to be able to practice at the top of their license until they can do that, they're going to be feeling pain.

Ryan Dunn: 24:03

Yeah. And the workforce issue. Sometimes it's so broad when you say workforce, it means a lot, but it's also a great advantage for us because almost everyone in the dental space, from our members to every profession and industry surrounding dentistry, knows that we've got to fix the workforce problem in order to get things to where they need to be and having dentists practicing at the top of their license, which then flows down and we know that offices are then efficient and then more people are being seen and, the ball keeps rolling down the hill, but we've really, got this major, funnel problem where the funnel is wide open, but it's really, really thin at the bottom.

Paul Logan: 24:49

That's right. If I could call out one area where I have seen, we can't do things the same way and expect, this problem to be fixed. One part of the state where we really have seen some innovation and people thinking differently is in Southwest Virginia. One of our members, Dr. Scottie Miller at the Appalachian Highlands Community Dental Center, they've started this residency program that now has, I think nearly a hundred applicants a year from all over the country. They have folks coming from Harvard Dental School to practice in this residency clinic in Abingdon, Virginia. That's now. quickly in a few years become the largest Medicaid provider in the region. And they are being very creative thinking about, well, How do we engage high school students with a lab tech program? They're in the process of standing up their own dental lab and exploring ways that they can incorporate different elements of education along with residency program to better serve patients in the area, and they've had success in retaining those residents after they graduate in an area where they really need more dentists. Also in Southwest Virginia, the dental assisting program at Mountain Empire Community College run by another one of our members, Dr. Emily Bowen, in just a few years, they've started dental assisting during the pandemic. They have, now, the second, expanded functions, dental assisting program in the state where they have a partnership with Germanna to provide, education and share educational resources between their programs. And they're now in the process of looking for a partner, to do the same with dental hygiene, as they see the same need in that area that we're seeing in other parts of the state. So whether that's with Wytheville Community College or another college that currently has a program, it's really exciting that things are moving quickly in that area and that you have some just forward thinking leaders who are pushing this forward.

Ryan Dunn: 26:47

Now, absolutely. We're very blessed and fortunate in Virginia. We have many things to overcome. But I will, say that our members are some of the most resourceful and, invest their time and their willingness to see this through. And like you talked about,, the clinic in Southwest Virginia is one that should be looked at and should be reviewed for every part of the Commonwealth. It is a model that is working, and is filling a void Everybody who's gone down there and knows anything about it or has been involved in it, clearly understands that this is an avenue that's moving the ball and is one that could be stood up in many different parts of the Commonwealth. You can get caught up in being negative and can get caught up in the struggle because it is a struggle. It's a fight. That is taking, time to win it. But along the way, we've got to acknowledge our successes. We've got to celebrate those, give credit to those, whether it be Dr. Munn or Scottie Miller or those type of folks that have gone above and beyond to do this and, remind people of what the VDA is doing every single day. We want to empower our members to be able to answer a non member or somebody who's debating not being a member saying, Well, I don't know what the VDA does for me. Well, it's a lot. and it's not an easy answer to give someone. so we hope that this podcast will give you an opportunity to just hear it in our words. And then be able to take this discussion and hopefully some of the things stick and you can relay them. And if not, we're happy to have that discussion with anybody as well.

Paul Logan: 28:28

Something that, has been just so rewarding to me is just how many dentists over the course of the past few years have raised their hands and say, how can I help?

Ryan Dunn: 28:39

Exactly.

Paul Logan: 28:40

And when we are focused on this issue, when we have regular conversations with all of the different players at the local community college state level. It gives us the ability to answer and say, well, actually there's a focus group meeting at Laurel Ridge and they are applying for fast forward funding. If you could take an hour out of your day to help them with that focus group and tell them what you need, they might be able to expand their program

Ryan Dunn: 29:09

It really does. It brings out the best people are stepping up left and right. If you are looking to help make a difference, what would you tell them if you want to engage in your local community?

Paul Logan: 29:20

I would say any time I'm happy to have a conversation on workforce. My email is logan@vadental.org. I would also say. Get to know your local community college program, whether there's an opportunity to serve on the advisory board,

Ryan Dunn: 29:33

That's what I was going to say, serve on that board.

Paul Logan: 29:36

Whether it's just, you have used equipment or other things that you could donate. Different education programs are always taking those and, and can find if you have even expired materials that can't be used on a patient, they might be able to use them as part of their education. But get to know them and so that they know you and can reach out when they need help.

Ryan Dunn: 29:59

Exactly, and it is very important and our incoming president Dr. Marlon Goad. He's still on the Wytheville Community College's board there. So. And having someone who, is in the community running that business, running that practice, knowing what the market is extremely valuable. So that may be an extreme for some to go that far, but I would say. Get on that board, And if you have an interest in that, we can help you for sure. Put you in touch with that, but even if it's just being a sounding board or offering insight, they are always looking for advisory councils, support councils, people for feedback. Cause quite frankly, they don't understand that industry as much as someone of our members caliber.

Paul Logan: 30:45

We can only scratch the surface in 30 minutes, talking about workforce issues, there's a lot we didn't get to today. We're going to be having ongoing conversations. As I mentioned earlier, we have new data coming out on workforce that we'll dig through but if you have topics that you'd like to hear about, if you have feedback, you'd like to please share it with us. We are experimenting with format. Want to make sure it's something that is useful for our members. And, that we're all learning something, but also getting to know each other better.

Ryan Dunn: 31:12

And so we want to bring in experts. We want to bring in interesting people. But we really want to reach out to our members to say, what do you want to hear? Who do you want to hear from? I'm sure they don't want to hear from you and I every single week. nor do I think that would be the best idea or use of this time. But there are times when they're important things for us to be able to share. I do plan on trying to use this, podcast to be able to share, some of the summaries of things we're doing here at the VDA. It will be brief. We want to empower our members to go talk to other non members, but also to other members who may not be, in the know. But to spread the word to your peers as to exactly what it is that the VDA does for them on a daily basis. And I assure you it is a lot. So, we'll probably be calling a few of you in the next few months. Feel free to shoot things and ideas our way. Well, with that, I would say this wraps up our very first. The Fulcrum.

Paul Logan: 32:10

We made it.

Ryan Dunn: 32:12

We did it. I hope that everyone found this useful. We will have, an opportunity to bring Tripp Perrin our head lobbyist. on into the next episode to talk to us about the General Assembly. I'm sure folks will find that interesting. I always say that there's only one organization that wakes up every single day going to bat for dentistry in Virginia, and that's the VDA. So with that, thank you all for your time, and we will see you again on The Fulcrum.

Paul Logan: 32:48

That's a wrap for this episode. If you enjoyed it and found it useful, please subscribe and share. We'll be covering a wide range of topics in the weeks ahead to help VDA members understand our current practice landscape in Virginia and how they can engage in improving it. This podcast is for you, so please send your feedback and ideas to fulcrumpodcast at vadental. org. Thank you.