To Hum is Human

The Inner Hum and Your Creativity

• Donnabelle Casis

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This week, I’m joined by a truly visionary guest who’s transforming how we think about conflict, creativity, and intuition. Gabrielle Hartley, Esq., is a pioneer in family law and innovative dispute resolution. She’s the co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Better Parenting Plan, where she’s leading the development of Virtual Gabby—an AI-powered online mediator designed to help parents craft fair, affordable parenting plans with ease and compassion.

Driven by a bold vision for expanding access to justice, Gabrielle is harnessing technology to transform how families navigate separation and co-parenting. She’s the bestselling author of Better Apart and The Secret to Getting Along, and the creator of the Y.E.S. Method™—a transformative framework for turning conflict into cooperation, featured in her TEDx talk and national media.

In this conversation, we explore how tuning into your inner hum — even amid legal or emotional turmoil — can unlock clarity, compassion, and radical creativity. Gabrielle shares how she’s integrated her intuitive wisdom into a tech-driven platform, and how you can apply the same inner guidance to your own personal or professional crossroads.

Follow me on Instagram @ToHumisHuman and @sonorous.light555

Website: www.sonorouslight.com



SPEAKER_01:

Hello, friends. It's me, Donna Bell, your host of another episode of To Hum is Human, the podcast where we explore the transformative power of tuning into our intuition to express our passionate purpose. I'm so happy you're taking the time to listen today. This episode is all about the inner hum and your creativity. And I have a truly inspiring guest who embodies the intersection of innovation, intuition, and impact. Whether you're navigating through tough transitions or simply trying to tune in more deeply to your own inner wisdom, today's episode is a beautiful reminder that our intuition, when honored, can guide us toward solutions that serve not just ourselves but the people we love. It's such an honor for me to introduce my next guest. Gabrielle Hartley Esquire is a trailblazer in family law and dispute resolution. She's the co-founder and chief product officer of Better Parenting Plan, where she's building Virtual Gabby, an AI online mediator that helps parents create fair and affordable parenting plans. With a bold vision for access to justice, Gabrielle is using technology to break down and bring compassion-driven conflict resolution to families everywhere. She's also the best-selling author of Better Apart, also The Secret to Getting Along, and the creator of the YES Method, Y-E-S, a powerful framework that turns conflict into cooperation and has been featured in her TEDx talk and national media. Gabrielle's work is deeply rooted in creativity, purpose, and a belief and accessible solutions, making her the perfect guest to explore today's themes. Welcome Gabrielle. Oh

SPEAKER_00:

my gosh, Donabelle, that was quite an introduction. I've been on a lot of podcasts and that was really, I have a lot to live up to.

SPEAKER_01:

It's all you. It's all you. Well, you know, we know each other personally and I've always admired the way you trust your instincts and act on them. And I wonder if your experience and love of theater growing up impacted how you live in this flow.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, it may or it may be the other way around. It may be that the theater was a great place for me to express inner emotions that maybe weren't safe maybe to express in other a home environment or in other places. So yeah, I had a lot of refuge on the stage. I was always a double thread. I could kind of act and kind of sing, but dancing, everybody's going right and I'm going left. So I stuck to the books.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, growing up and with all kinds of issues that we do grow up with in parenting and also being a child of parents, obviously, what's one belief that about parenting or conflict or even justice that you once held, but had to release in order to hear your inner truth more clearly?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a really interesting question, Donabelle. I have to think about that for a minute. I think either by design or as I am intuitively have a natural, I don't know if it's a benefit or a burden, but I see other people's points of view very easily, which is why mediation was appropriate for me rather than litigation. But I have really had to learn to listen to my instincts also and learn to say no. And I've become really good at saying no. And it's like, if you take one thing away from me, like learn the power of no and learn the power of let me think about that. I'll get back to you later. Because if you don't say anything, people hear a yes, and then you wind up in all kinds of trouble.

SPEAKER_01:

I think the power of no is actually an underused power. If you ever want to

SPEAKER_00:

practice with me.

SPEAKER_01:

No. So you've spent years in the legal system, a space that's deeply rooted in logic, structure, and precedent. How did you begin to recognize and trust the quieter, intuitive voice that told you a more compassionate path was possible?

SPEAKER_00:

So when I was practicing law, it was more... Although I love to be an advocate and I'm a very natural advocate, I was really working hard to suppress my creative side. I had studied design environmental analysis at Cornell as an undergrad and I was raised by two artists. And so for me, it was just more leaning into who I already knew I was, you know, and it's a harder path, the creative path, because it's not always so clear how you're going to find your way forward. career-wise, right? I have been lucky. I've been very fortunate to have a strong skill in divorce mediation, which is one thing, but I do a lot of other things. I'm creating this legal tech and it's not even legal tech. It's actually more like mediation, human tech. And I've written books and I just think it's a lot about bravery. I really... didn't step away from litigation until I had Gwyneth Paltrow's endorsement on Better Apart. And that gave me, I know that sounds totally silly, but that was like a stamp of approval that really fed my confidence to say, okay, like Gwynny says it's good. And once, you know, when Better Apart hit the shelves and was featured pretty widely, that really is what gave me the confidence to step out of the box that I had put myself in. When I was younger, I had a goal, which was to be mainstream. I used to say that, you know, I wanted to be like regular. And, um, once my, my eldest son told me I was so, I think he called me like generic or something like that. Like as an insult. And I was like, like, I wasn't, it wasn't basic. It was something even worse than this. But, um, Yeah, I really, you know, my parents had joint custody when nobody had that. We were like kind of weird family. You know, my parents were two different religions. I went to two different houses of worship. The adults were always like, isn't this confusing for you? And I was like, not so much for me, but maybe for you. You know, like even as a kid, I thought like, not really, this is not confusing. But yeah. I just, I really craved belongingness and normalcy. And so I think I built a fortress almost around myself to create like a safety net so that I could feel more supported in the world. But as I got older and more confident and more comfortable, In my own skin, as we all do, you know, like our skin maybe isn't as good anymore, but our confidence is better. So I guess I'll take it. But yeah, I feel like it took me a long time to really lean into myself.

SPEAKER_01:

It's interesting that you had wanted to be so normal as your goal. when I'm just thinking you are so far from normal and that's why I love you. Like, that's really why I love you.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I just wanted to be normal. Like, I just was like, you know, like I had friends who I'm still, I have a really rich group of friends from college and law school. And like, many of them will say like, oh, you're so weird. And like, there was a time in my, I guess, early forties where I like put out an announcement, like nobody called me weird. Like if you call me weird, we're not friends.

SPEAKER_01:

That's really funny. Well, can you take us back to the moment in your legal or mediation career when the right decision on paper didn't feel right in your body and how you navigated that?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So it's kind of embarrassing to say, but the right decision on paper never felt right in my body. Like it never felt right. I was a design major in college. That was like, right. I was really good at it. I was really, I mean, as a other things and, you know, all the things that had, it's kind of mediation. You know, we used to do a lot of projects about getting architects, engineers, and community to build together How to do that. And you couldn't really travel if you had a nursery school. Anyways, you know, your 20s, you're not really thinking things through so much necessarily. And so I worked for a judge and I did love that. You know, I had a taste of settling cases and I loved settling these like high conflict, crazy cases, which of course takes a degree of creativity. But then I moved away and I got married and I didn't work for the judge anymore. And I opened my own practice and I went to court for years. I don't know, like 15 more years. And I just couldn't stand the fighting. It was so stupid. It was such a waste of people's money and time. And there's no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. There's just not. I mean, of course, if you're in a particular situation, you may need court. But for most people, you don't need to spend$50,000 or$100,000. You can spend... between five and 20 and get a great outcome and still a lot of money, but it's like calm. And so the thing that lit the change was, I'm going to bring back Gwyneth, but when she got divorced from Chris Martin, I think it was 2014, there was a lot of media around the conscious uncoupling. And at the time I said to my husband, I'm going to write the book that she's going to endorse and I'm going to be a big... conversation starter in divorce. I'm going to start the positive divorce movement because I felt like my parents' divorce was actually very positive. And he was like, oh, go to bed. He was basically like, you don't write. What are you talking about? And I was like, those are fighting words. And so I Wow. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

So powerful. So powerful. And I love that you're like, those are fighting words. I'm going to actually prove you wrong. I'm going to do this. And that's a motivator too, right? Like I'm not going to buck under the whatever box, the box you're putting me in. But you know, it's interesting because most of our listeners think creativity as, you know, what I do, painting or writing or creating music, but you're innovating in how families resolve conflict. So how do you personally define creativity in your work? I don't know if I've thought about that.

SPEAKER_00:

I'd say it's like looking at the edges of an issue. I was at a Chanel exhibit and there were these suits from the sixties that had frayed edges. And I And this went through my mind, like I could write an essay about this suit, right? My brain just kind of works like that, like looking at things from different angles, considering creating space for possibility. You know, it's not necessarily this or that. It could be a different thing. Like I can remember in my later 20s shopping for shoes and I was trying to decide. And I think I was also maybe deciding between two boyfriends.

SPEAKER_01:

Choices.

SPEAKER_00:

Choices. And I was like, okay, this shoe, I'll stay with this person. And this shoe, I'll date them. This is so over-describing. But anyway, neither shoe fit. And I was like, they're out. If only if it was that easy, right? Yeah, I mean, in that moment... I'm very blessed with moments of clarity. It can take me a long time to get there, but when I make decisions thus far, and I'm pretty far along, my moments of clarity stick. So I feel like very lucky about that.

SPEAKER_01:

And I feel like that's something that's been cultivated and validated so that you then trust what you're choosing, right?

SPEAKER_00:

It was interesting growing up with parents who are artists, especially my mom, who's like really, really talented artist. My dad sold more because he was very charming. But my mom, my mom is very skilled. And my brother was like a super genius. And I was just like gets along with others. Right. I like, you know, and. I always wished that I would be more creative. Like, you know, I did theater and I was fine. I was good. I got good parts, but I wasn't like amazing. You know, I was solid. And it really wasn't until my later 40s where I realized that I had... sort of found what motivates me and, you know, I've found a path, but it's still, I mean, it's new, right? It's not that far into this new creative path. And I wish that I had found it sooner.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I would argue that the path wouldn't have been possible had you not had the other experiences to kind of make it,

SPEAKER_00:

right?

SPEAKER_01:

So if we could go to the impetus behind your first book, because for someone who's never written a book before. That's kind of a daunting task, but you're just like, I'm going to write a

SPEAKER_00:

book. How did that happen? It's kind of funny too. When I went to college, I was literally in the remedial writing. I was at an Ivy League school and I feel like I got in because I did a ton of extracurriculars and reasonable grades and classes and that, but my essays were really funny. We'll never know. Well, you are. You're brilliant and you're really funny. That's I really wanted to, it sounds so green, but like in my mind, I wanted to offer almost like a solve for people going through divorce who didn't have a therapist or had a lawyer who wasn't that compassionate, or maybe they were trying to go it on their own. And I practiced a lot of yoga and I wanted to incorporate yoga, meditation, and like nuts and bolts around your divorce. And so I built a whole methodology to think about your divorce in terms of yourself around peace, patience, clarity, and forgiveness and respect, right? And it's like, how do you respect yourself when these things happen? How do you forgive? And it's literally all about leaning into self-compassion. And in my mind, you know, this book was going to like do all this, you know, like change litigators. I don't know what I was thinking, but like what wound up happening is, you know, loads of mediators gave the book to their clients and loads of people who were getting divorced and yoga, you know, people, people who already were in the choir were interested in hearing more from the choir. But I... I gave the book to my mom to read. And even though their divorce was pretty good, I always felt like she was still holding on to anger. Lo, these many years later. And she read the book. And I remember she called me. She said, are you trying to tell me something? Hint, hint.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. I used to sit at this long table and I would sit in the seat on the far end. And then I would have like person after person sitting directly across from me, coming in from the world with a smile on their face on the outside world and crying. I had boxes of tissues. I say had because now it's all internet, right? So I'm handing virtual tissues to people. And it just like, I just felt like I wish I could make a group of all my clients, or I wish I could shout out to the world, you don't need to wear that mask all the time. But of course, you do need to wear a mask to survive in life. But I wanted the book to be accessible. You could open any page at any time. You don't have to read it from beginning to end. It's organized very specifically. The first section talks about these concepts of patience, peace, respect, clarity, and forgiveness. and what they mean. And there's yoga and meditation brought into them. And then the second section really takes a look at what you need to think about for custody. What do you need to think about for finances? What are the key elements? And there's meditations in there throughout and some worksheets and just things to consider. I hope, I've been told it's a really healing companion. Elena Brower contributed all the yoga exercises and the meditations. And she also includes some personal stories. And she's a pretty well-known yogini.

SPEAKER_01:

I love how the approach is more holistic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because you're saying, yeah, there's this mask that we carry when we have to survive. It can only work for so long when the inside part isn't really addressed. You're still going to have to carry that as well. And through breath work or through meditation. It's really bringing care and focus on that part of yourself that also has to heal during this whole process.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's also about like curating friends who are supportive during the stage and not getting so angry at friends who can't be there because, you know, people show up as they can at different parts of your life. Really easy to get angry. So we sort of explore. I sort of go into a lot of that, that whole idea of like bring yourself into a place where you can smile more, at least once a day, even if it's just a moment, even if the rest of your day feels like chaotic and a maelstrom. And rebuilding yourself from the inside out, like what's not working for you anymore?

SPEAKER_01:

Now, you created the YES method as a transformative tool. What

SPEAKER_00:

is

SPEAKER_01:

it?

SPEAKER_00:

So YES stands for Your Role in the Conflict, What's the Emotional Story, and Shelving an Argument. But really the way it works, when you think about conflict, there's always a fear or an anxiety or something that's driving your emotions. Not the person who did something, that we're blaming somebody else for doing something, but there's something inside of us. And so the whole goal is to figure out what's going on for you. And the way to do that is by taking a pause, creating space, which creates the pathway for energy to start helping you figure out what your emotion is, right? Because we get locked in our positions. We fight over what we want. We resolve around why we need the thing we want, right? So you need to know your story. The way to figure out your story, your emotional story is by shelving, right? And so I called it YES. Because I was thinking of it more like a circle when I wrote The Secrets of Getting Along. But those three elements, it's really all about the E, right? Because if you can unpack why you want what you want, what is your motivation, or what If you can understand what the motivation of the other person is, you can resolve in a way where you're not being positional anymore. And the thing I love so much about doing divorce mediation, I always say like, bring it on. Like other than somebody who really can't stick to an agreement, I find it very satisfying to solve the unsolvable because everything's solvable. Because we agree so much more than we disagree. I agree. Well, we think we disagree with, right? Like you and I, we know we are of similar minds, but there's a whole world of people who you think, you know, you don't understand. But if you were forced to probe a little bit more and forced to make an understanding, you could. Yeah. And you wouldn't. It would actually be very satisfying. Would you call that empathy? Yeah, that is empathy. I wouldn't use that word because those labels bother people or they're like, oh, he's not empathic at all. I just invite people to think about their motivation. Okay, so say I'm in a divorce and all he cares about is money. Well, that's actually not the core motivation. The core motivation is probably financial insecurity, a scarcity mindset. So So when you can look at it that way, yes, you are being empathic. But if I label, let's be empathic, that person may feel like an enemy in the moment. And so you're not looking for empathy. But if you're looking for solutions, understanding why they need the thing they want, we can get there.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, when you created the YES method, was there a moment when it arrived as an insight rather than something constructed intellectually. Like what was happening in your own life or perhaps in your own inner world when that concept emerged?

SPEAKER_00:

So the concept, it's funny because during COVID, when everybody was making sourdough, including myself, my agent called and she said, Gabrielle, I want you to write a book like Better Apart, but more global and more generic for other people. And at the same time, Before she called me, I had applied to do some TED Talks and I was just thinking about conflict and resolution and how do we move from the what to the why, right? And I knew like in structuring a TED Talk, you really have to be very focused on what key core concepts you're trying to share. And so I really had to think about What is going on in conflict? And what's going on is almost like a chain of escalation, more escalation, more escalation, and the kaboom. How do we dial back the kaboom? And yeah, I can't really say how it came to me, but I knew you had to stop. I always talk about shelving. My grandfather talked about shelving. Shelving means pausing. What he used to say to me is like, never throw anyone away. Just put them on a shelf. The same thing goes- arguments, right? So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I imagine that the idea of it became clearer or more clear as you started really focusing specifically on that method.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right. Because when it started, it was actually a whole different thing. It was a whole different methodology, but it wasn't crystallized enough. So actually after I did my TED talk, I restructured my whole book because it made so much more sense. So the publisher who had purchased The Secret to Getting Along happened to be located in Chicago and this TED was in Chicago and I invited her to come listen. And when she heard the TED, I think she and I had the same thought while I was delivering. When I saw her, she was like, that was really great. And we kind of looked at each other and I was like, I think I'm going to restructure the book And she was like, I was thinking the same thing.

SPEAKER_01:

didn't necessarily support at first, but you knew there had to be a way of honoring, you know, this collaboration across

SPEAKER_00:

disciplines. So I am very excited about the potential to offer co-parenting plans to people affordably. You know, so Virtual Gabby was actually in April, birthed at Stanford. We presented at CodeX as a research and development project, and we are actively building right now. It is designed to deescalate, to educate, and to drive the parties toward a parenting agreement that's very linearly created. And maybe that's like your question is like, how do I as a mediator deal with that? It is very interesting. Using AI is not as flexible today, right? as using a human, but it's better than just winging it. And it's much less expensive than having an attorney or mediator work with you from scratch. So Virtual Gaby in its present form, the capabilities are designed to take a co-parents, I won't even say a couple, just co-parents from a 15 to 20% agreement and they both want to mediate to an 80 to 100% agreement. And it is designed to... Just because the tech isn't quite there and we're not just releasing something into the wild that impacts children. So it is designed for it to be, before it's converted into an agreement that's to be filed, to be reviewed by a mediator, a lawyer, or court personnel. But it very clearly takes the parties into the room and figures out where they agree, where they disagree, what needs to to be completely mediated. It narrows the issues and it gives an agreement and it is very complicated. It's like, it's so much more work than I think I anticipated when I first got into this. And my co-founder, Olga Mack, is a multiple CEO, co-founder, and double Berkeley, MIT, Stanford. She's unbelievable, and I'm creating the product. And it is really rich and really exciting. And we're always looking, if any of your listeners happen to be involved with legal aids or are interested in early tech startups, anything like that, definitely reach out because we're always looking to learn and to grow and create the best products tech possible to help as many people as possible.

SPEAKER_01:

What a beautiful project and combining the two skill sets that you have together with this team to really create something that that most people would find so challenging and overwhelming. And you've worked with countless people during one of the most vulnerable transitions of their lives, divorce and separation. What patterns have you seen around how people disconnect from their own inner compass during crisis? And how do you help them reconnect with

SPEAKER_00:

it? So during crisis... Okay, so basically people do five things. I feel like you must have done some research, but there are five things we do in conflict, right? And they usually go together with each other. We... We bury our head in the sand, right? Like the ostrich. We steamroller. So they go hand in hand. So the steamroller is like the controlling person. The person burying the head in the sand is the avoided person, right? But the controlling person isn't really controlling and the avoided person isn't really avoided. Well, this is how we act to quell the anxiety, right? But I just name it. I name it for people. If somebody says, he's so controlling, I say, he seems anxious or she seems anxious. Oh, yeah, they're so anxious. Okay. Hmm. Well, let's start addressing things. You know, we sort of like dial it back. So then there's people who stir the pot. They deflect, right? I have this great PowerPoint picture with a witch around the pot, like, right, stirring it, making it worse. And those people tend to couple with any of the other people. of the five sort of topologies of arguments. And by the way, we all do all these things. Don't judge yourself if you do them because you do them. There are no exceptions. Everybody does these things. And depending who you're communicating with, you do different things. So the last two are minimizing and catastrophizing, right? So they go hand in hand, right? So often a minimizer is coupled with a catastrophizer and they only make it worse because they invalidate each other. So as a mediator and also as a virtual mediator, there's a lot of validating that has to go on because You can't hear when you're still talking and you can't stop talking until you've been heard.

SPEAKER_01:

So valuable right there, that statement, because I think a lot of it is feeling seen. Exactly. And being heard.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Is that a fair thing to say about why conflicts arise if you think about it?

SPEAKER_00:

I would say fear and insecurity is really at the root of all conflict. Sadness, but it's fear and insecurity. So you might have a fundamental loss when you're really young that's never been healed at a deep level. Go to Donabelle if you want some deep level healing. I'm just a lawyer. I'm just talking. I mean, I don't have a certification in therapy or anything like that. I've been doing this for my whole life. I worked for a judge and resolved like nearly 800 cases when I was 30 years old. So 30, 31. So you've seen a lot of cases. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've definitely seen thousands of cases. I won't say tens of thousands, but thousands. One theme is like people... can feel like their whole life has been a lie. And when I was really young and I was first doing this, I would say it sometimes. So the way it works in New York City is before trial, You and your lawyers would go into this back room beside the judge's chambers and meet with me or whoever has that job. And so it's two lawyers, two litigants. Everybody's much older than I am at the time. Right. And you didn't really get too much training, but I had a good mind for this. But I don't know if it's indelicate, but I would say things like, you know, you'd hear somebody hear somebody's story. And these people were just about to go to trial. They're about to spend like their life savings for two weeks of arguing. And then I would say something like, it sounds like you feel like your whole life is basically a lie. And so then the person would cry. And as soon as they would cry, we'd resolve the whole case. And it was like, I know you almost get desensitized to it, right? At the time, I'm like, well, you know, the judgment was like, you're great at resolving this. I was like, oh, I made 10 people cry today. My work is done here. Right. But the reality of it is, I think I was just hearing their pain and I was letting them, you know, and I was probably a good 20 years younger than a lot of the people who I was seeing, right? But I was able to see and just hold what they were saying and not in this therapy kind of way, but just in a person way.

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_00:

it kind of shut down. Some of the older lawyers would just be quiet. You know, when you're doing a settlement conference, which is a bit different from a mediation to settlement conference is when there's two lawyers also. And it's a little bit less gentle because you need to get it done. Everybody's being paid a lot, but you have people's feelings. I would be careful to say something like, it sounds like you feel like your whole life is a lie. And I'm not saying that it was a lie. You always have to balance the room, which can be tricky sometimes. But it's kind of like a dance. I mean, I think of conflict as a dance, right? It's like leaning in and leaning out and knowing when to do what. And it's much easier to do if you're not part of the conflict.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? I think there is something to that. Also, being the youngest person in the room, that had to be a little vulnerable for you to kind of actually go in and say that. But no? I mean,

SPEAKER_00:

So when I grew up, my parents had these family meetings with us. I used to call them like referendums against Gabrielle. It would be like my dad and his girlfriend at the time and my mom and her husband. And they would sort of like be working together to make sure I wasn't spoiled, right? And they would just like, you know, tell me all the things I was doing wrong or whatever. It was very calm. But I kind of learned to keep my mouth quiet in those meetings because I wanted them to get done as quickly as possible. But I think When I first was clerking for the judge, I think it was amazing because I had my voice. I had all those years of sitting quietly. And now I was just able to say, this is what I think is happening, right? And I... Loved my job. I mean, when people call me today and they say, have you ever worked with blah, blah, blah? I'm like, no case too big or too small. Like I'm so bad at so many things, but I am so good at this. It's a real niche skill, Donabelle.

SPEAKER_01:

I can only imagine. And I know you do it well. That's the reason why I created this podcast is speaking to people who found their purpose, found their zone and help others in that capacity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I love this. This

SPEAKER_01:

title is amazing. Gabrielle, what advice would you give to someone who is sort of stuck between doing what's expected maybe by the legal system or family and sort of what their intuition is quietly urging them towards, especially in regards to conflict resolution.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So you just asked a layered question that I have to answer in two parts. When it comes to the legal system, I don't care how you feel, you cannot break the law. So like you have to do things the right way. That's

SPEAKER_01:

straight. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, let's just be clear. Like if the judge says do something, you can't not do it. No good to you. Just do what the judge says. Okay. When it comes to your personal relationships, I mean, I do think there's a balance between listening to yourself because at the end of the day, this is your life and weighing the wants, needs, desires of the people who are near and dear to you and making sure things are always in balance, right? So like by nature, this might be a surprise to you, Donable, but I'm rather conflict avoidant, right? That is surprising. I really... have a tendency to remain silent and to minimize because I do not like conflict and I'm very happy in my own mind and my own space. And I'm very good at, I have very good boundaries, which is I think what lets me minimize, but that has gotten me in trouble sometimes. So like I am learning to speak up more, right? Like I'm very good at owning myself and I'm very good at saying no, but I think that it's just all a balance and we all have to find our own balance sometimes. If you're in a career or a job or something that just feels like it's not the right fit for you, I would encourage you to listen to that sooner rather than later. Because while what you said is absolutely correct that I could not do what I do today had I not spent time litigating, but I could have spent 10 years and not 18 and I would have been just fine. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, look, I was raising children, right? Like there's only so much one can do with one's time. And the best thing to do really is one baby step in front of another and have trust in the path. And I am like crazy about the vision boards, whether it's words or a journal or, you know, as you can see, if anybody's watching this instead of listening, you can see Donna Bell's beautiful artwork. You can, you know, make art or vision boards that are more visual. I happen to connect more with words than pictures, but yeah, I, I just say, listen to that voice in your head because you can do really cool things. You just have to have the confidence to know that you can. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And the power of yes, as well as the power of no. Right. Well, I, I have one more question. That really speaks about all of this, especially with virtual Gabby. How has motherhood shaped your relationship to intuition and ways that you've carried into your work with co-parents and families?

SPEAKER_00:

So I am much wiser and more forgiving than I was when I was younger. And for me, I think having a family of my own has definitely made me... made me that way. I have more compassion for other parents. I have more understanding. I have three kids. They all come with their own features as do everybody else's kids. So yeah, I mean, there is the beauty of time that will help you be wiser. But I would say if you're young and listening to this, like there's no time like today. But to start being more empathetic and more compassionate to yourself too. Don't be so hard on yourself. You're stronger than you think. You're better than you think. You can do so many cool, cool things more than you think you can. And Donna Bell is right. Power of yes and the power of no. Oh my gosh. So many things

SPEAKER_01:

to do. Good one. Anyway, Gabrielle Hartley, I so appreciate what you're doing to help keep mediation and co-parenting plans accessible. Your work reminds us that even in the moments of conflict, there's room for clarity, compassion, and creativity. If you felt inspired by this episode, I invite you to share it with someone who might need a little encouragement or a new way of looking at conflict. And as always, I'm so thankful for you being here today, Gabrielle, and being part of this community and speaking about your story and sharing your vision because it's such a powerful way to show how we're all connected and the ways in which we can all help each other. I

SPEAKER_00:

just want to say one thing that I forgot to say before. Always remember that a step back is very often the best way forward.

SPEAKER_01:

Wise, wise words. Thank you so much, Gabrielle Hartley, for being on the show. Thanks for having me, Donna Bell. It's a pleasure. You can also find more episodes and updates at sonorouslight.com. or on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep humming.