69. You're not procrastinating, you're doing invisible work

If you've ever called yourself lazy, or wondered what's wrong with you for not being able to just sit down and do the thing — this episode is for you.

What if "procrastination" is just the wrong word for what you're actually doing? 

Maisie Cheong and I talk about:

• Why we internalize the identity of "procrastinator"
• What invisible work is, why it matters — and what our ancestors knew about it
• Why the people who are always busy "getting things done" might be the least equipped to handle what's coming
• How to get higher quality work out of yourself by changing the way you talk to yoruself

______

Connect with Maisie

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatmaisiesaid

Website: https://www.maisiecheong.com/

Transcript

Simone 0:00

Hello everybody. You're listening to Liberatory Business, A podcast by me, Simone Seol. Thank you so much for listening. So today I'm having a conversation, with a very special guest whom I just met in Singapore. And here's how we first. Uh, bonded. I was doing a q and a with an audience in Singapore and someone asked a question about how to overcome procrastination, and I began talking about my take on pro procrastination, and after the talk, my guest that you'll meet shortly, Maisie came up to me and we started talking about how. We both used to identify as procrastinators, but don't anymore. And talking more about our respective takes on procrastination, we realized there's such an important conversation to be had about how we think about the nature of work and how we talk to ourselves and how so much of that impacts how much we get done and with the quality of the work that we gets done. And so I'm here to have that conversation with, my friend Maisie Cheong. I'm confident that by the end of this conversation you're gonna walk away with an entirely new way of thinking about how you work, and you might too become an ex procrastinator, someone who doesn't think of themselves as procrastinating. Okay. So welcome to the show, Maisie.

Maisie 1:21

Hi, welcome. I mean, not welcome, but hi. Thank you for the welcome and I'm really glad to be here. I love that introduction. That was such a delightful introduction, especially the last bit. Maybe you'll also now become an ex procrastinator.

Simone 1:36

Yes. That's, that's our invitation to everybody. Like, let's all become ex procrastinators. Um, I would love to ask you to introduce yourself, um, very briefly because I really wanted to get, get into the conversation and people are gonna just hear your brilliance.

Maisie 1:49

Yeah, sure. I am Maisie and I am a communication designer, so that basically means I design communication based on people's personality type and so that they can communicate honestly and better and just build deeper connection in their relationships.

Simone 2:04

Including your relationship with your own creative work.

Maisie 2:07

Exactly. And

Simone 2:08

and your business. Right. Okay, so I wanna ask you, do you remember the first time you picked up this idea that you were a procrastinator?

Maisie 2:18

Yeah, I think all throughout my schooling life, I would leave my assignments to the last minute and something like, you know this, this pattern just kept repeating. I remember as a university student, I would have to take a long train ride to school and I would finish my homework on that train ride. So I remember I think either my mom or my friends saying, oh, why are you always so last minute? Do you have to procrastinate? And then that label stuck. And I think that's the. That's the insidious thing about labels, Simone, like somebody just suggests it because of their view, their angle, their perspective, and you adopt it really easily. And I think I adopted that from people around me because at that time, I mean in that, in that. In that context, the best descriptor for my kind of behavior was procrastination, and there was no other word for it. And so I adopted it as my language.

Simone 3:12

Oh, so well put, I think I could tell almost the exact same story, everything, waiting until the very last moment to do anything. I think a, a really good way. A illustration of that is, you know, I was. I just came back from a trip through, um, Philippines, Singapore, and Malaysia, and I started packing my bags an hour before I was supposed to leave for the airport.

3:35

Oh

Simone 3:35

my

Maisie 3:35

God.

Simone 3:36

So that is the story of my life, and I think if we were to poll a hundred people who consider themselves procrastinators, where did you pick up this label? I think probably 99% of them will say school. Right?

Maisie 3:49

Mm-hmm.

Simone 3:49

Because I think before school, um, which operates based on really rigid schedules and deadlines, and you have to fit inside this box and check off these, um, these lists. We don't have this idea that we are late for things, that you are the kind of person who procrastinates. All these constructs are kind of imposed on us when we enter these institutions.

Maisie 4:12

Mm-hmm.

Simone 4:13

Right? So. I wanna

Maisie 4:15

ask and just, and just to add quickly to that before your next thought. Yeah. I feel like the construct also of being punctual, being early, being quick, has a lot of, has a lot of sort of adopted merits that are not necessarily always true. It's like if you're faster, if you're on time, your work is always better, you are always better. So I feel the procrastination gets that negative label also because. Punctuality and speed and efficiency gets all of these borrowed virtues as well, which isn't always the case.

Simone 4:45

Oh man. So, okay, I was gonna talk about this later, but I can't help but to think about the cultural Yeah. Baggage that comes with that. I don't know if you guys have this in Singapore, but. In Korea? Um, I think not so much anymore'cause our society has changed so much, but at least when I was little there's, there was such a thing called Korea time. And Korea time is like, oh, I'll be there at five. And they actually show up at 5 45, you know, it's like, oh, you're not late, you're just on Korea time. You know?

Maisie 5:14

Oh my God.

Simone 5:15

Do you guys have anything like this?

Maisie 5:16

I don't think we have something like that, or at least I'm not aware of it, but I do think that there is, there is that, that need to be punctual and on time such that. People would even extrapolate to the extent that if you are late then oh, you know, what kind of person are you? What does this show of your character? It becomes a, it, it becomes a characteristic when actually, moral

Simone 5:38

trait. Yeah,

Maisie 5:38

exactly. Exactly.

Simone 5:40

I think the most painful thing for me as A-A-D-H-D person who has been, you know, accused of being called a procrastinator, you know, by so many people, especially in my early life, is that it wasn't even like. The, discomfort of having to wait until the pressure at the last minute to have to get things done. Like even that was okay. The most painful thing for me personally was people thinking that I don't care, or like, or that it, when it became a morality thing, like she must not respect, for example, the teacher. If she's, you know, always late or she must care about other people less if she's always doing things at the last minute, bef when agreements have been made in, in advance. Right. And so those accusations, like you said, when it becomes a character, a trait, that almost is a pronouncement on your morality, like how much you care about and respect other people, that's when it became really personal to me because yeah, I can handle the pain of whatever, getting a bad mark on a whatever assignment,'cause it was late, that's fine. But if you say, well Simone, that means you're, you don't respect other people that if that means you don't care, that means you are, you know, a less ethical person. Like that's when it really stung, especially when I was younger, when I didn't have an alternate vocabulary. With which to understand my own experience, and if everybody around me is mirroring back this message that like, you're like a bad, uncaring, unres, disrespectful person, then you begin to internalize it and you're like, what's wrong with me?

Maisie 7:16

Oh, Simone, thank you for putting words to that. I feel that so strongly, and I do think that this, this labeling is something that we learn so quickly as a person in a society because we, you know, we are in a community, we're in, we're steeped in culture, and there are so many things that we take on that are not ours. There are so many truths, other people's truths that we adopt that are not necessarily ours. And so I think that then that becomes, so, it becomes so easy for us to just say that, oh, okay, because I procrastinated. And even then that word, that word is so violent. Like why couldn't, why can't I just say, you know, because I took time. Exactly. You know, I have to say, because I procrastinated, that's why I'm lazy.

Simone 7:59

Like I'm indicted myself,

Maisie 8:01

you know? I know. Yeah. And, and it's just such a. It's, it is a harsh way to perceive our own actions. When that's so good. When, you know, when I could have been happy procrastinating. Like when I came up to you after the talk, I told you that I, I used to call myself a procrastinator, but the tension in me was that I felt happy procrastinating. I felt happy taking that time. So I didn't know, did I count as a procrastinator, did I not? But I feel like I resound with what you said because I have. Had questions and assumptions that, okay, I don't care, or I am lazy. Lazy, that's a good point she has all of this time, but why did she do it on the day before her due date? And that that also made me question myself, is there something wrong with me? Am I really so lazy? Like do I, you know, love, pleasure, and comfort so much that I don't even feel bad putting off my assignment? And it's hard in Singapore if you do that because everybody here is so efficient.

Simone 8:57

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, in Singapore, you know what? South Korea, where I'm from and Singapore have in common, is that these two societies modernized very, very fast and sort of adopted a sort of western style capitalism on hyper fast track, um, speed. And so. I just think it's interesting, you know, going back to what I said about like Korea time, you know, I have heard analogs to this in many other non-Western parts of the world. Like I think someone told me we do the same thing. We call it Africa time, you know, India time, island time, right? Where I, I think that genuinely. People used to perceive time differently and our relationship to time differently. And I think the sort of Western supremacy, um, in modern, in modernity has come to label other ways of relating to time as the inaccurate ones. Like the western clock is always the right one. And so if you are late by Western standards, you wanna, or you are lazy and that is, uh, you know. That is an accusation that a description, pejorative description that has been made towards many parts of the world to justify, like European powers asserting supremacy, like over these people.'cause you're lazy, you know, we have to teach them how to be industrious and how to be punctual and how to be efficient. And, um, I think not only. Has that, impacted the world in so many ways. But we're just looking at this one, uh, cross section of what that's impacted and which is that so many of us are living with this, almost like this sentencing, right? Like we have sentenced ourselves to the identity of a procrastinator who to their own detriment, you know, just cannot get with the program, is just behind and lazy and doesn't care. And, and so what a burden that, that we may have. That, maybe not even from your own culture, you know? Let's, I'm gonna stay, try to stay on track. One insight that you had that we talked about in Singapore that I really wanted to ask you more about was different kinds of work and namely the difference between visible work and invisible work. Tell me about that.

Maisie 11:03

I feel so strongly for this, and I think this came up from the desire to have alternative language to describe the experience that I was having. You mentioned the phrase alternative language just now, because in the lack, with the lack of alternative language, we can only adopt the majority perspective, which in this case was procrastination and I felt that. That didn't sit with me anymore. I felt like I needed to represent my experience and I got deep and curious about why I feel at peace taking time before I do the task that is right at the last minute. And I realized that for me, I do a lot of invisible work. I do a lot of thinking and seeking clarity before I actually. Do something as an action, as a visible action. And I realized that society doesn't credit invisible work. It doesn't credit intentionality or thought or introspection or reflection, and a lot of these things was the pre-work in a way or the pre-action that I had to do so that I could do a really smooth action like one. One great example for me that I feel always demonstrates this is that I, I did my masters in UK and I needed to complete a thesis. I needed to submit this thesis and I had one year to do this thesis and I only started really writing the bulk of it the day before my submission, and that is 20,000 words, so obviously Wow. My, my family, they couldn't understand it. And my spouse was telling me, oh my God, why did you have to do that? And then, you know, you go so intense and you shut off the wall and for one day I can't contact you. And for me, I experienced it as. It was great flow in the one day before my submission, and the reason I had this great flow was because I had been doing pre-work for the rest of the one year. Obviously, I was not spending the whole year doing this pre-work. I was enjoying time in London. But mostly I had a lot of pre-work in my mind where I was thinking, how do I want to angle my paper? Who do I need to speak to? And I had done all the interviews that I needed leading up to it, but. The actual writing of the 20,000 words, I couldn't bring myself to do it before I had this clarity, and that is, I feel the value of the invisible work because you care about taking time to make it clear for yourself in your mind, instead of hiding behind actions and just performing it first so that the world can see that you're productive. But. After that, you may not feel for the piece that you're writing. You may not fully be aligned with what you're saying, and you may not have had the time to consider. So for me, this invisible work is so important because it. It covers all of the thought. It, it credits all of the thought that goes on and the, the work that goes on inside our heads internally before we put it out as actions. And these actions have consequences. So shouldn't these actions warrant the need to have that consideration, to have that time to think about what you want to do and, and that is that. That is the idea of invisible work that I, that I feel more people should understand because our modern society does not yet have, I think, the tools to interpret the invisible work that people are doing. And so there is a lot of these labels surrounding, oh, you know, what are you doing? Oh, I did nothing today, but I did a lot of invisible work. And there is that kind of idea, like what if I just sat in front of my window and I was thinking, reflecting and doing deep work that is necessary for me to be a whole person. But what the world sees is that, oh, she just sat in front of her window and she did nothing. And I felt this a lot when I took one year sabbatical of my work to take care of my health, to realign with my purpose, to understand what I wanted to do. And when I told people that I'm going to take a sabbatical. The most common response was, oh, what are you going to do?

Simone 15:06

Mm-hmm.

Maisie 15:07

And a sabbatical is literally defined as a brick.

Simone 15:10

Yeah,

Maisie 15:11

yeah, yeah. But, but they don't understand that. Me taking a break is also me doing reflection, doing thinking, doing clarity, um, being confronting about my flaws and my blind spots, and doing that work to decide how I want to to go. And so there is a lot of value put on the visible work because that is easily understandable by people. It can help people label what kind of person, what kind of a worker you are. Oh, she's diligent, she's hardworking. All of these terms, they describe visible work. But there isn't anything that really credits that invisible work.

Simone 15:48

You know, what you just said, um, gave me an insight just now, which is that I think we tend to overfocus on visible work because our entire understanding of time and productivity is based on essentially like an industrial factory model. Mm-hmm. Where the jobs that had to be done were task-based. Right. So you make this component, you make that component, you put the two components together, and then you do it like this, and then boom, you have a, the finished product, like an satisfactory assembly line, or like you're baking a pie, you put flour and you know, sugar and butter together, and you mix it like this, and then you do it like that, and then you roll it out and then blah, right? There's that, there's very finite defined task, which exactly, which if you do them in order, will yield a predictable result. Right. I think that's the kind of visible work that we are trained to think in terms of, whereas the kind of work that you are describing, Maisie and the work that I do, so much of it is not task-based. It's not factory assembly line industrial productivity model. What we do is creative and it's intellectual and it's associative and at some levels it's also spiritual. And that work. Is not task-based. Mm-hmm. Right? Because when it engages, um, more than just the most surface, um, visible actions, that you need to think, you need to imagine, you need to dream. You need ideas to sink in and ferment and catalyze and mm-hmm. Cross-fertilize each other. And for me, I always think about needing a lot of time for myself for spiritual downloads, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, that sounds so like, oh, spiritual downloads. I don't mean it like that, but just sometimes you'll just like. There are moments when you feel like, oh, an insight just landed. Yeah. Or something connect to the dots that I've been trying to connect for a long time, but I was just taking a walk and boom. Connect to the dots. Yes. I'm sure everyone can relate to that. Those cannot happen when you're busy doing tasks. They require space. A lot of times people talk about, you know, knowing something intellectually and knowing something at the body level, right?

Maisie 17:59

Mm-hmm.

Simone 18:00

A lot of times when I'm coaching people, people say, oh, I know that in my head, but somehow, you know, my body isn't following. Well, guess what? It takes time for knowledge to, or an understanding to sink in from your brain to your body, right? Yes. For me, I think I do my most brilliant work, my best work that is most, you know, recognized and celebrated and rewarded by the world when my spirit and body and brain are aligned. Right

Maisie 18:26

here, here,

Simone 18:27

and

18:27

very,

Maisie 18:27

very true.

Simone 18:28

Yeah. It takes time. Yes. For all of that to happen, the spirit needs to do its thing. My body needs to do its thing, and my intellectual brain has to do its thing and all the pieces have to be in the right place and then boom, they align. They're like, oh my god, Simone. How did you come up with this? Well. It definitely wasn't trying to by trying to follow a task-based schedule, right? Mm-hmm. So I think a lot of you-tell me what you think about this, but a lot of what we call, what you might call invisible labor, is anything other than very simple task-based factory style labor, which world is like AI is going to automate so many, uh, repeatable, uh, you know, task-based, um, types of work, that what's gonna be at a higher and higher premium is the creative work, the spiritual work, the associative work, um, that requires an imagination and kind of soulfulness that requires more than just what computer codes can crunch. That is going to require so much space and so much time, and a lot of that work will look like you're just doing nothing.

Maisie 19:35

Exactly. Oh my God, I, I I think there needs to be more advocacy for invisible work. Exactly. And thank you for going into all of that because I let's you know, I mean, I think a very big part of why this random conversation we had resounded with both of us was because that we want really deeply to have. Alternative language and alternative stories. And we have felt the brunt of the single majority narrative that didn't sit with us, that we didn't fit in. And I want to give this to everybody out there listening as well, who, who feels like there is no language to describe the thought and the work that I put into this. And I think that. It would be fine if invisible work was a concept that people just didn't know about. But it's not just that they don't know about it, but they have a lot of negative associations with it. And that is the thing that is doing the harm because you just go out, I mean, to, you know, a typical Singaporean Street and just say, oh, I spend a day reflecting. And maybe people ask, oh, you know, then what else did you do? Was that it? Yeah. And so there is the idea that you know, your invisible work. Is invisible because it's not good work or it's invisible. That's why it's not meaningful work. And what you said about the systems that sort of value, that kind of efficiency, productivity, that is all our society has learned to value ourselves and evaluate ourselves. It's almost like, you know, if you do a company audit or you do something, an evaluation, the KPIs. These, these indicators, they are always about visible work.

Simone 21:16

Yeah.

Maisie 21:17

Yeah. There is no culture or there is no practice of, of the criteria being. Being something that measures the invisible work.

Simone 21:27

Yeah.

Maisie 21:28

What is your level of thought? Like we haven't learned how to value that. And so because the system doesn't have that language, the people don't have that language,

Simone 21:35

right? Like how much creativity goes into this? How much discernment, how much originality, how

Maisie 21:40

much I know how

Simone 21:41

much relational competence. Right.

Maisie 21:45

Sounds so good

Simone 21:45

to give people alternative frames. And I think you and I talked a little bit in Singapore about, um, how. There's kind of an Asian component to this so if you imagine the kind of archetype, the prototype of these, this ancient Chinese sage, right? Like someone like Confucius or something. When you imagine the way they go about their days. You don't imagine them like dashing from place to place, getting things done mm-hmm. And doing this and doing that. Right. You imagine the kind of like moving slowly, kind of like strolling, sitting at time, you know, spending a lot of time just like sitting and contemplation and meditation. And if they say one thing, that one thing is like so rich with meaning and wisdom, right? It's like better if you say fewer things, but those fewer things mean more. And so I feel like in, in sort of classical, East Asian culture, a lot of what's valued is deliberation. And discernment. Mm-hmm. And the cultivation of your inner character, sitting with things, honoring relationships before acting, considering consequences. So I feel like before modern industrial productivity took over, I think people, it was valued. It was, um, honorable to move at a much more slower pace.'cause then you were likely to make fewer mistakes. You are likely to, um, act in ways that are more conducive to harmony for all, as opposed to just you rushing ahead to get things done according to your agenda. I think there was a kind of nobility to that,

Maisie 23:20

I love that you brought that up because I find that so interesting. You are right. Like we in, in traditional Asian culture, there is a lot of emphasis placed on deliberation. Contemplation, like you said, and that meditation, that going back to self to connect with your thoughts because then that brings you into a higher self. Yes. And that brings you whole to interact and relate with people around you. That makes you a valuable citizen because you're connected with yourself. It may, yeah. So I, oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, so, so I think that that is a lot of the self connection. There is a lot of emphasis placed on self connection as a responsible and ethical and moral behavior. But I think somewhere along the way, with the entrance of modernity, we have sort of categorized this whole school of wisdom into a drawer called rest. And that we have, we have somehow processed that as to sit in opposing forces. So good with progress and modernity and we have classified that as not our original state, but we, we have classified that as that is the state I will go to once I have finished being productive, right. And giving all my products and then, and then now that is a state that I need to dissolve.

Simone 24:41

So it's almost like there's two states. There's like visible productivity and everything else gets categorized as rest,

Maisie 24:48

right? Yes. Because it no longer seems impressive in this current age when everything can go so fast. Like, you know, in, in the past I felt, I think that, you know, it was conducive for people to take time because maybe going to the next town you need. Be on the horse, be on foot for three days, five days, but now you can just zap, you take the cap somewhere and you go really quickly. You reach your places earlier. And there is, I think that that learned behavior of, because now we can do things faster. We need to work faster as well in order to keep up. And so that that original narrative of taking time as, as your being now becomes the rest that you need to work hard enough before you deserve. And we have. Now split the two. Into these two states. One is the productive self and the other is the one that, okay, you can rest after. Maybe you have killed yourself for five years working or 10 years. Yeah. Working. Then you can go into that state.

Simone 25:44

Right, right. Speaking of looking back to our ancestors for wisdom, I wanna encourage everyone, like wherever you're from, there's gotta be something in the wisdom of your ancestors that points you to the importance of. Um, contemplation, deliberation, developing discernment, doing a lot of what modern society would call like nothing. You know, just like going on a journey just for yourself or going on a pilgrimage, not producing anything, spending a lot of time in nature. I feel like if you were to look back, um, far enough. Every culture has to have some frame of reference for how those modes of being were valued. Right? And so I wanna encourage everyone to look into what that might be for your ancestors, wherever you come from. Um, because it'll give you a more tangible way, uh, of, of being able to connect to how to make that come alive for you. Right.

Maisie 26:43

And I just wanna say what you just said, like being able to connect to your ancestral, ancestral sources of wisdom. That takes time.

Simone 26:51

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

Maisie 26:52

yeah. That takes reflection and that takes connection. Without this time that we spend with our thoughts connecting to our thoughts, we are just going to be performing, doing all the time. Yeah. And that's gonna make us half of ourselves. It makes us cut off from our resources, our natural resources, our ancestral resources, and we are just not being put out. We are not putting the best self or the best version of us out into the world. And the biggest systemic impact is that you have all of these people who are not spending time thinking and they just do and they react. And so you have a lot of the, the, the violence that we see today, a lot of the harshness that we see today, it's. It's a result I feel of people not being connected to their thoughts, not taking the time to deliberate, to find alternative measures, to find alternative solutions, to take the time to do things instead of picking the quickest way to react

Simone 27:47

and taking the time to connect to their own wisdom, to their own inner compass, because I feel like you really have choice two choices. You're either tuned into your own wisdom or you're reacting. Two, what other people are telling you to do.

Maisie 28:05

Mm-hmm.

Simone 28:05

And one is definitely faster, but you know, like you said, I can't help but wonder how many problems that we have in the world would've been, you know, prevented if people in boardrooms right in in places of government weren't under so much, they didn't put themselves under so much pressure too. Look productive, right?

Maisie 28:28

Mm-hmm.

Simone 28:28

Okay, so here's the juicy question. What's the difference between avoidance and invisible work? Right, because I get this question a lot too from people who worry that they're procrastinating. Like, how do I know if I'm doing really valuable invisible work or if I'm just avoiding.

Maisie 28:47

Like even in that question, I find it so interesting that they need to determine the worth of their invisible work so quickly. Oh, so good. Yeah. Like how do I know my invisible work is, is valuable? I feel that that question itself already comes from a deeper narrative that, okay, so my invisible work is only valuable if I have something to show for it.

Simone 29:10

Mm-hmm.

Maisie 29:11

And the thing is, if you're thinking about that. Then you are still in visible work mode and. It's not to say that you don't think when you're doing invisible work, it's just that you need to hold space for the idea that the impact may not be visible immediately, or it may not be something that you can show other people to prove. Ah, you see, that's why my one day of reflection was worth it because the next day I sent 5,000 emails. You know, you don't want to use that invisible work in that sense because then you are just going to measure invisible work by the same parameters that we create visible work on, and that isn't true to the value of invisible work. Invisible work, I feel, is where you can connect to your thoughts such that you have. Achieved a certain level of tude of certainty that you no longer need visible work to be the shield, to be the armor that says, Hey, look at me. My invisible work was valuable. I feel like that clarity that you get from doing that invisible work. Is your biggest indicator that it was meaningful? If you got something for yourself, if you felt some peace that is meaningful. Avoidance will give you a very different feeling. Avoidance may give you anxiety. It may give you the idea that, you know, I'm not thinking, I just don't want to do this right now, and that is something that I think is of a different color. And if it takes you farther away from your dreams, you feel this anxiety and that lack of peace, there is a different color. I do feel sometimes different emotions if I'm doing that invisible work.

Simone 30:46

Ah, I don't understand how you're so beautifully eloquent. Um, but. If someone were to ask me this question, let me say this. If I feel, or if I fear that I might be avoiding something or I'm not doing something and it feels like anxiety, right, or fear or something like that, and it doesn't feel good, um, I either change one of two things. I change my action, so I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna get up and do the laundry. Like I just do the thing, like I change my action or I change the way I talk to myself.

Maisie 31:21

Mm.

Simone 31:22

That's it. Like if you, if you are not doing something and it feels bad, change your action or change the way you talk to yourself, because a lot of the times. The, sometimes you genuinely feel better when you just go and do the thing.

Maisie 31:35

Mm-hmm.

Simone 31:35

And it's like, I, it's so funny. Like it's so often I will, I'm like, I have to pee and then I will just not get up and go to the bathroom because I'm like, Ugh, too lazy to get up. Oh my God. Like my bladder bursts. I'm like, just go freaking pee. Right. Sometimes taking the action,

Maisie 31:51

oh my God. I feel that. I feel that I'm guilty of that as well.

Simone 31:53

You do that too?

Maisie 31:55

I do that too.

Simone 31:55

I'm like, what is wrong with

Maisie 31:56

you? Just go, my bathroom

Simone 31:58

is 10 steps away, so I know that. Or cha if it's not like that, you can take, that's

Maisie 32:03

so helpful.

Simone 32:04

Right? It's

Maisie 32:05

so helpful.

Simone 32:05

Like, what kind of friend am I being to myself in this moment? Like telling myself, oh, you're so like,'cause I'm, I'm lucky to have, you know, a a, a best friend who always thinks the world of me and who would never, ever, ever say anything mean to me. And. Thinks the best of me under all the circumstances, and I always think to myself, what would she say about this? You know, would she be repeating my default asshole voice to myself saying, what's wrong with you? You always do this. You're, if you don't do this, so such and such bad things gonna happen and da la right? And like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Is this how I wanna be talked to my talking to myself? Is this how someone who cherishes me and treasures me and adores me and believes in me?\ Would talk to me about it and then I ask myself, well, what would I say to myself if I were coming from that place? You know? And that gives me a lot of insight. And, uh, so much of this work of reconfiguring your relationship with work is reconfiguring your relationship to yourself, which as a communication expert Maisie knows is about, is about changing the way you talk to yourself.

Maisie 33:10

So good. So good. Thank you. That was, that was so well put. I, I love how you brought in reframing, because again, reframing is another kind of invisible work. Oh,

Simone 33:22

yeah.

Maisie 33:22

Oh, so good. Yeah. And, and in this, I mean, I think we really wanted to have this conversation also just to name, name all the different kinds of invisible work that we have to do so that people who are listening. They can go like, oh, I reframe all the time. I didn't know that was work. That is work because you reframe for yourself. You resource yourself. You don't go and dump on somebody else. That makes you already a more responsible partner in any relationship.

Simone 33:46

You know, someone who is so busy. Chronically reacting to the world and mm-hmm. So caught up in, uh, in doing what externally feels productive, someone who's spending all of their energy and time doing that. I, what I observe about those people is that they don't have a lot of, um, like neuroplasticity, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it, it's hard for them to learn how to think differently. It's gonna be hard for them to access a reframe or to question their own beliefs or to, gain enough flexibility in the way that you're thinking to, change the way you talk to yourself, to get new ideas because. Thinking room requires time.

Maisie 34:33

Mm-hmm.

Simone 34:34

And they're not giving themselves that time'cause they're so busy doing, they're busy reacting.

Maisie 34:39

Yes.

Simone 34:39

So a lot of the times when I talk to people about reframes, about changing the way you talk to yourself. They have to first, the prerequisite is you have to slow down enough to notice what the hell frame you're in in the first place. You have to slow down enough to actually listen to what you're telling yourself.

Maisie 34:57

Mm-hmm.

Simone 34:57

And a lot of people who are not in the habit of slowing down are actually really unskilled at that.

Maisie 35:04

Yes.

Simone 35:04

And actually practice. And that cost a lot in the Yeah. It's just un anyone can get better at it.

Maisie 35:09

Yeah.

Simone 35:09

But they're just unpracticed. I wanna say that has big consequences in the long run. If you don't know how to slow down and examine your own mind and your own body and your own spirit, how to listen to all the different parts of you. Talk to different parts of you. Put some room in there to wiggle things around and see how, what happens if I plug this in here? Right? Like all that in your inner life, if you don't give that oxygen, it's really gonna cost you in the long run.

Maisie 35:37

It is and it's going to cause collateral damage as well.

Simone 35:41

Mm.

Maisie 35:41

Because from the relational perspective, at least where I do my work, I see that people who do not have this inner dialogue, they do not take the time to do the invisible work. They don't have self-awareness. They are less. Practice at reframing. And so then there is a lot of load that their partner has to carry. And that is the, that is the burden. And if you just take this macro and you look at all the people who do not have their self-awareness, do not do this invisible work. Everybody else in the world carries the load. Everybody else carries the burden of their actions, which is what we are witnessing today. And I think that that, that is something that. We need to be responsible for. We are not talking about some soft woo work of talking to yourself or any, we're talking about the best way to be a responsible human that then will create a community of humans who learn how to be accountable. They have to bravery to be self, self-aware, and they have the resources to reframe so that they can take responsibility for their own actions and they can put forward, considered. Actions rather than reactions, which is where a lot of, I think that harm lies.

Simone 36:52

Mic fricking drops. Maisie. So brilliant. I can't stand it. Okay, so I wanna ask you one last question. Instead of saying to myself, I'm procrastinating now, I blank. Fill in the blank.

Maisie 37:10

Take time to clarify my thoughts.

Simone 37:13

Oh, okay.

Maisie 37:14

And I really, and I really feel that like I was, I think I mentioned how that now if I have a task and I know the deadline, I actually plan to work on it one day before. And that brilliant. Is that, and that is that. Intentionality. And it's different from saying I'm only going to start on it one day before. It's more of like, I am going to take action, visible action one day before and I'm gonna start the invisible work from now.

Simone 37:44

Oh, brilliant.

Maisie 37:46

And I think that is so important. We need to use the accurate language to describe our work rather than take on the labels that people have used to evaluate just the visible work portion.

Simone 37:58

Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. I think if I were to answer the same questions

Maisie 38:01

mm-hmm.

Simone 38:02

Instead of telling myself that I procrastinate, I tell myself, I get curious about what parts of my thinking and my body and my spirit need to come into alignment.

Maisie 38:17

Mm.

Simone 38:19

And then I take time to allow that to come into alignment. Um, so. I hope that Maisie and I have offered you plenty of different ways to reclaim the language that you use for yourself. So, Maisie, before we close, um, what kind of, what are you doing right now? How can people come find you? How can they work with you?

Maisie 38:39

Oh, well I am, I am present on Instagram at what Maisie said, which I'm sure can be linked somewhere. And my website is maisie cheong.com. And basically the work that I do for either individuals, couples, or teams is that I profile people. I designed the best communication for them to speak to themselves and for them to speak to others so that they can have that deep connection, they can be seen and they can be honest in their conversations. And a lot of that starts with how you talk to yourself, which is what we talk about today. And you'd be surprised at how many labels people have about themselves.

Simone 39:13

That's so fascinating. How do you like individually like profile? Is it, is it like, do you look at their human design? Like what's your process? Just

39:20

curious.

Maisie 39:20

Yeah. Profiler that I use is the Enneagram. Oh, okay. Because the Enneagram looks at the things that you value. Like for example, maybe you value integrity, maybe you value authenticity, things like that. And that shapes the way that you express yourself. It also shapes the way you like to be connected with. And so what I do is that then I design this blueprint for each person to tell them, okay, here are the words. And the actions that you really like that make you feel really good, that you can give as directions to the people important in your lives. And then these people can, you know, have the accurate information to connect with you. And of course, the result is that you're gonna feel so good in your relationship, you're gonna be able to speak honestly, and you feel. Seen, and that is what I call emotional accuracy. It is something that I want to advocate for so that people understand that just like tailored clothes, you need to tailor your communication. You can't just take all of these communication tips online and assume that everybody wants to be appreciated the same way, and everybody needs to be apologized or repaired with the same way. It's not true based on what we value, the language that connects us different. It, it defers. And this thought that you put into connecting accurately with people, that's also invisible work. Mm. That is thought, that is authenticity. And that just creates much better relationships where there's understanding. Because I think Simone, the one problem in the world right now is that there isn't enough understanding.

Simone 40:51

Mm-hmm.

Maisie 40:53

Just, just there isn't enough empathy. I don't take the time to understand your perspective, and I don't take the time to use the language that I think you will resound with. I just wanna say my piece, be correct and move on.

Simone 41:05

Yeah. Oh my gosh, so good. Okay. I will put all the links in the show notes. Thank Macy. Thank you so much.

Maisie 41:11

Oh,

Simone 41:11

thank you Simon. The rich, rich conversation. I hope everybody who's listening feels as liberated and clarified as I do right now. Oh, and I'm sure this is not gonna be the last time we talk.

Maisie 41:23

I look forward to talking again. And, and I think you know, if you just wanna take away one thing from the talk, like everybody who's listening, just understand that you are gonna feel the sweet fruits of this invisible work that you do for yourself, because you're gonna get clarity for yourself. You're gonna get peace for yourself. And the beautiful thing is you will no longer need that kind of external validation. Because you're connected with your thoughts. You don't need to hide behind actions for other people to value you. Let's say that again for ourselves.

Simone 41:52

Boom. So good. Thank you so much, Maisie, for being here. Thank you for listening and I'll talk to you next time. Bye.