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Words from the Wise
Join Words from the Wise with Gary Wise, a retired Navy Command Master Chief, for authentic leadership insights forged in real-world experience. Through engaging discussions and actionable strategies, Gary empowers you to master emotional intelligence, build resilient teams, and unlock your full potential. Tune in for practical advice on delegation, conflict management, and inspiring others, drawn from his over 28 years of service and ongoing leader mentorship headquartered now in Ocala, Florida.
Words from the Wise
When Everyone Wants Off Your Team, You're Doing It Wrong
Ever wonder why some teams excel while others flounder? This episode dives deep into what separates high-functioning collaborative environments from toxic workplaces through the lens of veteran leaders with decades of military and civilian experience.
Our panel of leadership experts breaks down the essential components of building teams people actually want to join. They share candid experiences from naval leadership roles, classroom management, and business environments that reveal universal principles about human motivation and group dynamics. With refreshing honesty, they discuss how poor leadership directly impacts team performance and how effective leaders create shared vision that aligns diverse personalities toward common goals.
The conversation takes a vulnerable turn when discussing burnout among high-performers—revealing how even the most dedicated leaders struggle with sustainability while maintaining their drive for excellence. You'll hear practical strategies for managing workload, creating strategic "battle rhythms," and establishing communication protocols that prevent team exhaustion without sacrificing results.
The most compelling insights emerge around trust—described as "the foundation of everything." The panel explores how trust gets fractured in professional relationships and provides a roadmap for rebuilding it when broken. Their straightforward approach cuts through typical leadership platitudes to offer actionable wisdom about consistency, authenticity, and the courage to have difficult conversations.
Whether you're leading a small project team or managing an entire organization, you'll walk away with battle-tested techniques for inspiring collaboration, communicating effectively, and building the trust necessary for any team to thrive. Subscribe now and join the conversation about creating teams where people genuinely want to contribute their best.
And I know I was born for this. I know I was born for this. Don't care for the critics, my words and my physics. Before I said they can't stop. They just don't get it. I think they forget.
Music :I'm not done till I'm on top. I know I was born for this. I know I was born for this.
Gary Wise :I believe. I believe we can write a story. Here we go everybody. How you doing, gary Wise here, words for the Wise. I'm going to bring on my buddies, I got Mr Jeremy Moore here with me and Mr Chris Cahill and we are live. We are currently live streaming on YouTube and on our LinkedIn the Words for the Wise LinkedIn page. Of course, if anyone is interested, this will be available in all places you can find a podcast. It'll be available on anywhere you're looking for an audible podcast to listen in. Let's go ahead and get that out of there. I'm trying to make sure I can see the comments, in case somebody comments uh guys, how you doing, man doing, doing good brother, how you doing yeah oh, man, I'm doing good I got, but I got.
Gary Wise :I got more sun today than I need, so you know I'm slathered in cocoa butter, trying to stay okay. Hey, so the, the reason we got together today to talk about, uh, the, the things we want to talk about, which is leadership, development, working with people and helping give people ideas to help themselves in their world. Right, the first topic for today's live event, as we get just right into the meat and potatoes of this thing, is collaboration. Before we get into collaboration, there's two different kinds of teams. You can be on the kind that everybody wants to be on the team and the kind that they don't want to be on the team. Have you guys ever had an experience like that?
Chris Cahill :Of course, absolutely, absolutely.
Gary Wise :Okay, so how do you find? I'm curious to know if one of you might might explain how did you find yourself on the team that people didn't want to be on.
Chris Cahill :So poor leadership, I, really creates a poor team. Um, you gotta have a shared goal, a shared vision. You know the Bible says, without a vision people perish. And like you, have to have a shared vision and you need you need a good leader that can keep everybody on point with a common, common goal and vision. We talked a little bit about this, I think, two weeks ago too, and and then you need somebody. You need a little bit of cheerleading and that doesn't. It doesn't need to be fluffing, but you need somebody who, legitimately, you know the progress and the success and the contributions of everybody on the team, and some people are good at finding ways to elevate others and turning a negative into a learning experience, whereas others are, are more harsh, more negative, or just don't have that esprit de corps and positive leadership or in a common vision. I think without those two things, you're on a team where you don't, you don't want it, you're not energized, you don't want to be there and you're looking for the next door off.
Gary Wise :OK, so for Chris, your experience was you got on a team for whatever the reason was, and the leadership is what eventually caused people to not want to be on the team. Yeah, got it All right. So, jeremy, for you, can you give me an example of a time you were on a team that everybody wanted to be on the team?
Jeremy Moore :Yes. So there's really two ways I guess you can look at it. One is being on a team where everybody wants to be on that team because of the job itself. You've got that really slick, cool job that everybody wants to be on, and then you've got those scenes that attract attention around you because everybody's cohesive and everybody's kind of jiving, and those are the, those are the winning teams. Right there, you know, where everybody's sitting on all cylinders and really the difference is is just taking time, I think, to um, get everybody to really understand and know each other.
Gary Wise :Yeah, well, and for me, as I was thinking about today's topic, you know I will tell you, as a leader, I approach collaboration differently, dependent upon the team dynamics, right? So most of the teams I feel like I've ever led, people typically don't want to be in the room. They've all got other things they want to do. They've all got other ideas, what they want to have, and I've got to bring them to the table to get them to buy into something, right, right, and I will tell you whether it's me working with these kids now and all I have to offer them is a grade and or leadership. Or in the Navy, I'd have a room full of senior enlisted leaders that were like, brother, we could all be other places right now, we don't got to be here. Or I'd have a bunch of junior people that were like we hate the military, dude, we don't want to be here right now. So, so what? And having to learn how to get them to collaborate is complicated.
Gary Wise :On the reverse, I've been on those teams, like you said, jeremy everybody was like we're going to get awards for this job.
Gary Wise :We all want to be the birth person that gets the top, the name or people all see like the benefit to them in the long run and I can only imagine what it's like to be in the civilian world and have everybody's getting really paid good money to be there, and we all want to really contribute, because I've never had that experience, right, I've never been there. Now I will tell you, in the teaching world, most of those teachers are there because they love doing what they're doing, but they're not doing it for the money. Don't threaten them with a good time, because they'll let you know they really feel real quick because the money is worth it bud. So I guess, when it comes to collaboration, how would you encourage people, inspire people to want to openly collaborate? Why do we need them to collaborate? Let's be honest, why do we need people on a team to collaborate, do we? Why can't I just say do it, and they're going to freaking get it done so.
Chris Cahill :So well, here's my thought. Let's think about that from a church world, for example, and one of the problems that you get is we hit it happens anywhere, but I'll use a church, because everybody, I think, can relate to this. You get a couple of people in the in church, church leadership, whatever it is. It could be a small business, but what ends up happening is that those few people you know, they always say if you want to get something done, give it to the busiest person. They're busy because they're doers. And the problem is, for example, in a church or in a business, what ends up happening is you end up with a few alpha players and they're good, so you give them work, and then you give them more work.
Chris Cahill :And then the next thing you know I can tell you from my experience you're, you're, you're, you're at church three times. On Sunday, You're teaching a Bible study, you're teaching a men's group on Thursday, you're doing outreach on Saturday. Next thing you know, you're at church seven times a week, um, and on top of your the rest of your life, and you just get burned out. And if you talk to anybody who's been active in church, eventually they'll tell you yes, they get used and used, and used and used until they get burned out. And so I think that same thing happens in teams is you want to leverage individual abilities but at the same time you have to find a way to not end up putting the weight on everybody. You've got to learn to develop people underneath of that so you don't don't burn the same people out. And that's the biggest problem. That that I find in any organization is the same people end up carrying all the weight oh, that sounds familiar, huh, jeremy very, very.
Gary Wise :If you're the best guy at your job, you're doing everybody else's work yeah, you know, and I will tell you that, coming up throughout my career, I always wanted to be that guy. I'm not even going to lie. I always wanted to out Right. And so my way to encourage everyone to openly collaborate, right, because, yeah, that guy wants to, wants to do it, because they either are a true believer, they really want it that's filling their cup, or they want the, they want the recognition or whatever. It is Right. So that guy's great, but I gotta manage that person because they might shut other people down.
Gary Wise :For me, one of my first things is I want to re-baseline, reframe. Why are we all here in this room right now, right? What is the reason, however, we all got here? Doesn't matter to me. We're here right, and I've been known to fire people real quick. They didn't want to be in the room. If you told me you didn't want to be there, brother, you.
Gary Wise :I used to run a thing in the navy called the dcpo shop and what would happen is I would get all essentially the worst people people could afford to get rid of. They sent them to work for me and I would tell them look man, and I don't know why you guys sent to me. I even don't even care. If you don't do the job for me, I will fire you and send you back to where you came from and and it's going to be a problem, but if you can work with me, I promise you there's going to be a lot of good things that can come from it and get them to buy in on whatever it is we're doing there. Yeah, and that's for the people that that don't want to be there, right?
Chris Cahill :Well, you know that old adage, slow to hire, quick to fire, or slow to yeah, and I tend to not do that because I love people and I see the best in them and I usually drag them along months, sometimes years, past their prime. But the reality is bad apples ruin the cart. And I read a book once called Clergy Killers about churches and it was the same thing. You end up with some negative person in some sort of middle management level at a church and it can destroy everything from the inside out, the whole culture of the church. And the same thing about a collaborative team If you're working towards a common goal and one person is negative here, plants a seed there, drops the ball here. That that you know. If you're, if you drag them too long, you're dragging everybody else down and as much as you might want to support that person and love that person, you have to look at the mission and the collective team's well-being and troop welfare as well. You, you know. Yeah, you do.
Gary Wise :Uh, Jeremy, do you have anything to add?
Jeremy Moore :on that. Well, I mean you just, you know I'm kind of the same way, chris, I I very much am. Uh, uh, you know I hire and employ people. I don't employ numbers Right, and everybody's got a life and everybody's got a child or responsibility, or dogs, cats, you know, whatever it is it's going to distract them from work and getting them to hone back in on work is is, you know, the key. And bringing people along, you know, as long as they're not hitting past that prime is great. But also it can be looked at kind of in a bad light too from the team. You know, why are we still know? Why are we still? Why are we still pulling this, this anchor behind us? That's, you know, kind of holding us back a little bit, so just recognizing when sometimes you just need to cut a few lines and let a few people go and and it's. You know, that's the struggle that only a leader can really deal with. You know, if you're a caring person.
Chris Cahill :it's tough because you see them as the people that they are, not the number that they are on paper, and sometimes that's detrimental. That's a hard act to balance.
Gary Wise :Yeah, it is. It is and I agree Like the best team you will ever have is the one you already have. I don't believe you're always going to find next guy. I remember. So again, I'm on the ship, I had gotten down to the point where I had fired about 15 out of the 20 guys that I had and the xo came down and he was doing a spot check and he was like dc2, how many people work for you?
Gary Wise :And I said five. And he said you're doing all the maintenance for the whole ship. You're supposed to have 20 people and you only got five. Why is that? I said I fired the rest, sir, because they didn't want to work. They were confrontational. These five guys right here are awesome. They're doing the work. They're kicking butt, taking names.
Gary Wise :He says to me he says DC2, I'm an E5. I'm essentially a sergeant. He says what do you need to fix this problem? I said, sir, I need to revise this whole program where every first class petty officer, lpo on the ship works for me and I delegate the work to them and they get it done. However they want to get it done. He said write the instruction and make it so. Revise those instructions. Made it so Because they didn't want to give me quality people that wanted to contribute. So I got the opportunity.
Gary Wise :But you know what I didn't do? I didn't go cry about it. I eventually just got caught Because what they would tell me was well, you fired my guy, I'm not giving you another guy. And I would just say roger, that check, I'm going to get to work Now. As I got older in the Navy and I started to learn how to better manage my people, I learned that I mean to your guys' point I used to send people mess cranking so long I'd forget their last name. Mess cranking is working down there on the washing dishes. I would tell the guys like you are hired and paid to do maintenance on board this warship. If you don't want to do that, you want to be an obstructionist and be a cancer in my division, I will send you to work in the scullery. So long I will forget your last freaking name. And that guy down there, that master chief, is my boy and he ain't going to worry about you, bro.
Gary Wise :He going to forget your last name too yeah and and I'm not gonna have to pay that tax and what I've learned is that by being direct with people, they'll typically remember why they want that opportunity. Right, you don't want to go back and not no longer get the paycheck or not have the opportunity. And I think the other thing is professionals need to remember, if you're put in a professional environment to collaborate, your obligation is to collaborate and if you think it's optional, then maybe we've got a problem on the reverse side. I do think it's the leader's job to open up the space where everybody feels like they can collaborate, and I think by focusing them on why they're there, what's the purpose and where are we all trying to get to. I think that's, and I think by focusing them on why they're there, what's the purpose and where are we all trying to get to. I think that's huge.
Gary Wise :I think another thing is do you guys, have you guys ever heard the whole non-attributional frame of work or being non-attributional?
Gary Wise :I have not Go. So non-attributional essentially means that you can say whatever you want to say and we're not going to hold it against you, right, and I like to open that up Like I'd have meetings like my chief's mess or my sailors or even my cadets will. I'll say look, today we're going to have a conversation and, honestly, as long as it's not illegal, unethical or immoral, I we feel free to say it. Let's call each other out, let's have free conversations, because once we can clear the air now, we can actually start talking about why we're all here together. So if you think this guy's taking too long to lunch every day, throw it out there. If you think this person's not doing a good job of answering the mail, throw it out there. But then they get the chance to speak and what you get to do is cut through a bunch of the churn, hopefully, and highlight whether or not there's really a problem or is it just a bunch of just you know emotions right.
Jeremy Moore :Well, I mean, emotions are going to drive so much of what you do as a team. But I think you know you were saying there's no better team than the team you've got right now. And I would challenge you, especially on this side now of the wave of post-Navy. You know you get to build your teams now and, man, you can have, like I'm going to tell you right now, I've never been with a team where every member of the team cared about their job, until I got to this job right now. Like you know, garrett, like, and Chris I'm sure you've seen it so you just got a handful of guys that are pulling the work. Then you've got people that don't want to be there, people that have already checked out for Friday and it's Tuesday and they're just posting. You know.
Jeremy Moore :There's a lot of those in the civilian sector?
Jeremy Moore :Yeah, there are.
Jeremy Moore :And right now, like, I looked around the room and I was like each person here out of a team of 12 just wants to be here for the job itself.
Jeremy Moore :And because of that, now that's our foundation that we're going to build on, and we started building teams and then when I started interviewing new people, we would just bring everybody in after the initial interview. They're like we give them a tour, they come around and then they walk back in the room and the whole team's there and it's kind of like a fishbowl effect where everybody's like, hey, let's, let's see if this person has the, the want and the drive to be here, because you got those people like I hired one person and they give you the best show and they're like, oh, you know, this person's going to be great. And then they walk in the door and this girl worked five days and had already called out another five days and I was like, look, she gave us the best view of her, but that was not it. But now we're building those teams of people that you know. That's exciting either.
Gary Wise :Yeah, that's got to be exciting. I will tell you that I yeah, that's got to be huge. And I would like to think in the civilian sector, it is an advantage getting to hire and screen vice. You just get what you get, you don't throw a fit, um. And then I think to chris's point about going back to church. I see so many similarities to the challenges churches have.
Gary Wise :Back to my military time, because there's only so many people to do so many things and you really are dependent upon collateral duties or people that are willing to be volunteers, right. And it's got to be frustrating when it's almost like time is valuable and for me to give up my time to contribute to something. I mean, look, remember that we did that men's group for like a year, and when I look back on that, like I love doing what I do, but you were getting me in a premium Maybe, like I was every week doing this and I do like to contribute, but I think that time is valuable, okay, so we talked about having that shared purpose, having that focus of where we're going. How do you leverage or how do you get people to? I love being leveraged.
Gary Wise :Let me just say this I, if you're authentically working with me. Your, your cards are face up and I tell my students all the time leverage me. As long as you don't use me, don't play me. But I appreciate when someone's like. I recognize what is happening and I'll smile, cause I'm like man, I appreciate you letting me help you out here, but you're going to owe me one, but, but yeah.
Chris Cahill :Well, the thing is, and, I would argue, probably the three people on this call and the same people that are watching this video or this call or this Zoom, those people are all people that love being leveraged. They wouldn't even be watching something about leadership if they didn't genuinely want to be good leaders, want to be better leaders and learn about it. The reality is, though, 90% of the world doesn't, and that comes back to the challenge that I talked about earlier is that you got to be careful not to burn out those that want to be leveraged, and I will tell you and if I'm being fully frank, I have run 110 miles per hour, if you will Some people don't like that content but run a hundred miles per hour for the last probably two years straight, and I, if you've ever looked at my schedule, I am going from sun up till one or two in the morning, every day of the week, including Saturdays and Sundays. It doesn't stop, and I haven't stopped for about two years.
Chris Cahill :I'm tired, and because I'm tired, I don't have gas in my own gas tank and everything that's extracurricular. It just seems so taxing to me, and it also means that I have, even though I'm giving and giving and giving. I feel like a mama bird giving worms to babies everywhere in every part of my life and I start to actually feel me personally as somebody who, like you, is always I want to be leveraged, I want to serve, but my in my own being the guy who over leverages himself, I start getting jaded, then I start getting frustrated, then I start having short tempers, then I start, then I start getting just frustrated with regular people being average, because that's average, and then I'm like well well, why am I giving a hundred percent when you're giving 80?
Chris Cahill :and you're checking out on Friday? I'm not working. I'm working until 2 AM on Friday and Saturday and you're checked out, and then I start getting mad at them for being average, instead of recognizing average. People are average and it's my own fault for being so leveraged that I'm now being jaded. And so I'm just speaking to your question as the person who over leverages himself and I'm real. I really struggle with boundaries, because when I see a need and I have the capability to fix it, I do. And sometimes I need to say say you know what?
Gary Wise :that's my pride and ego, because if I don't do it, someone else will and that's okay hey, that's why we're ending tonight at 7 30, because because my my wife says 7 30, cut it off, bro, because you got other things to do and and you're not wrong. I think both both Jeremy and I can relate, man.
Jeremy Moore :Jeremy? Do you have any feedback for that? Chris? I think that's I mean seriously, man, that's amazing that you're able to do that, because I've done that too a lot. And then I find that burnout and then it's harder to go back to it. So I you know that burnout and you know obviously you have to have that good partnership with your spouse and and that kind of stuff and keeping yourself centered to do that, man.
Jeremy Moore :Um, that's hard for me to get back into now because you know I did that job for so long with like, constantly like after I retired, like looking at my cell phone waiting for it to ring and it doesn't ring anymore, you know, and you get that loss and that feeling. So I said, hey, I'm, I'm going to change a couple of things when I retire. And, uh, my wife begged me to take that year off after I got out. So I was able to separate and kind of center myself and I lost myself for a while. Coming back, um, I had to wait until I got energized again and ready to lead and jump back into something that I was going to put my heart into. So, um, just, I had to develop those boundaries that you know I had for so long.
Gary Wise :Just let people run over yeah, I get it so I would say, chris, for me, um, again, 100, I relate right and and the and the unfortunate thing is or the fortunate thing, let's be honest, it's a blessing to be as driven as we are, as you are. I believe that's a blessing, and I think it's a blessing that's been put into you for whatever reason, and you have got to just remember that. It's like the force, right? You don't want to go down the dark side, you don't. You have to. You have to learn to, to not be frustrated when you give your time to people that were not worthy of your time because you failed to vet it out.
Gary Wise :Right, that's a frustration you already said it earlier that it's like I I recognize that unfortunately they're not going to be the most effective use of my time and it could be for me. I recognize that that's one of my contributions to how I could try to make the world a better place is when I try my best to meet people where they're at and to do the best that I can do, knowing full well that it's not the best use personally or of my time. But I'm trying to recognize like, okay, what value can I get from this? But then I also can be very quick to recognize okay, this conversation is done, like I gotta move forward, I gotta go do something else and I choose.
Gary Wise :I'm very selective with who I actually like really really devote to my mind, to right, because I just I don't want to burn myself out. When I can keep myself entertained because I'm thinking of all the things in my own head, I don't need anybody else's help. Thank god grok is on the factory now like it's great, um, and I think the other thing is taking strategic pauses. Are 100 a part of a battle?
Gary Wise :attack right whenever I teach my cadets anything, I teach it from the war fighting perspective, because it's who I am. I can't help it. When I'm on the school, I'm talking about it like it's a freaking installation, like I'm calling the freaking mastex the cafeteria is the mastex, right, and it's just how I think. And I will tell. Today they were doing a workout, they're doing a crossfit workout and I would tell them take a strategic pause, get your breath refocus and get after it again, because you're not going to finish the the set if you just burn out and die. You've got to take a pause, get a breath, get someone that's what I love about that kind of a workout right, because it's an endurance workout, it's a relentless workout and it's going to make you dig so freaking deep that you're going to learn you could go farther than you ever thought you could, because it's one step after the other right. And then another thing for me would be just, I'm a big fan of just assessing where I'm at, what I've got going on, and especially when I'm feeling like really almost burnt out, I will load, shed things purposefully, I will shelf things that are not really cause, that are not really filling my cup, and I will say I know where they're at, I know how far they are. I will get back to them later, but for my own personal mental health now they do not get to be the priority. A trick be told.
Gary Wise :I also take some medicine because the navy was like bro, you shouldn't be shaking all the time and I'm like I can't do it. All right, and I had to. That was a hard pill to swallow. You know, when the doctor I thought I was going to I thought I had heart problems. They did an angiogram on me, all kinds of crap and everything's like. They're like Mass Chief, you're solid as a rock, I'm like. But like, have you ever thought about mental health? It's like you're freaking crazy, bro. Have you met me Like?
Jeremy Moore :I'm awesome.
Gary Wise :That's the thing that nobody wants to talk about, man. It was a huge eye-opener. And when you run hard and fast for as many years as I have ran, and even to this day, and then drink like 12 cups of coffee a day on top of it and don't and don't eat right, then eventually you cause changes in your body. Plus, we're getting older, right, and that's another thing I mean you are.
Jeremy Moore :You are.
Gary Wise :Tell me, brother, I'm telling you, well, y'all got those big old gray, bushy beards. Hey, let's get back to this again. But just so you know, man, I think it's 100% fine to feel the way that you're feeling, and I think it's valid, and I think that all of us feel that way, and I also would tell you I mean previous conversation we talked about this, but I'll say it again I think work-life balance is a myth, because people that are seriously committed to things, they're going to go.
Chris Cahill :You can't turn it off if you're wired to love what your mission is and I love it and if I'm awake, my brain is working on it.
Gary Wise :I love hiking up the mountain. I hate walking down the mountain, and so I believe I agree with Jordan Peterson when he says that men are designed to want to push rocks up hills. It's just knowing when to take that pause. Throw that freaking stick underneath the rock, let it help you. Hold the rock off you a minute.
Chris Cahill :Yeah, and then attack right. Generally speaking of men. It's funny because I actually noticed this Whenever you hear people talk about work-life balance, they usually fall into a couple of categories. It's often women and they are wired different because family is they're wired to be more maternal, you know, so they're. They're wired for that, where we're wired to go out and push the rock up a hill. So it's part of of your wiring.
Chris Cahill :But when you hear people say, man, you need more work-life balance, I find that people that tell me that are either essentially retired or basically one foot already retired, or or they're, or they're women or they don't like their job. But I don't ever hear an entrepreneur that I'm consulting with go, man, I need some work-life balance. Whenever I'm working with them they're like man, I couldn't sleep last night. I was working on the website, or I was posting this, or I was coming a new product, or I was working with vendors, whatever like, because they they're wired to love their job.
Chris Cahill :And I feel like, if you, if you, if you hear too many people say you need more work life balance, be careful who's saying it, because to your point, I don't know of such a thing truly exists, and that doesn't mean bury your head and work and be a workaholic. That is problematic. But I think you also like, like you said, I think it is a myth, because if you actually love what you're doing, you can't not want to keep pushing that rock up the hill. That's just my observation. Those I've noticed that over the years. When I hear people say it, I kind of look at them. I'm like, oh, you fit one of those three buckets. Of course you would say well.
Jeremy Moore :So I think it's like this, really I think it is. So I'm 46. If 46 year old jeremy would go back and talk to 23-year-old Jeremy, he'd say no amount of money. Like Howard Stark says, like no amount of money ever bought you a minute of time. I am able to enjoy things now in life that I had when I was 23 that I wasn't able to enjoy then, and part of that was because I had to deploy here, I had to go here for training and I had to do this. But I had kids that were neglected not like neglected, neglected, but neglected of my time, because I was focused on other things. So I think maybe some of that, chris, is also perspective. Like you were saying, like people are telling you hey, work-life balance, because at the end of the day, your family is important too, and and building that around you. Now that doesn't mean I'm going to go out and party it up, because that's not a, that's not you know.
Gary Wise :So here's what I'll say. You know work-life balance is I'll take for me.
Gary Wise :I typically, when I hear that from somebody, especially when they come to me hey, gary man, I need some work, I'm there I usually think they're going through something yeah, right there's typically problem at home, there's probably communication problems, there's probably life problems, right, and they're going through it, because typically, when people are communicating well with all the important people in their life, they're not typically out of balance, right? And I taught the kids this week about the five love languages. Well, that was last week, but I made them get up and speak about it this week and I told them I said change the word love to communication languages, so the five communication languages. Because I told them I said look, all love is is two people that have chosen to communicate with each other for a long time and they want to do it. Well, that's really all.
Gary Wise :It is Right. And I say communication is going to be king. And so if you're going to be a person that's a high performer, or a person who's going to live a purpose driven life, or if you're going to be a perfect person who's going to have things that you allow to inspire you so much that you want to feel energized, then you're going to have to communicate with the people in your world that need to understand what's making you move. And you know, here's the other fun fact and it's okay if it's not what energizes them, right.
Jeremy Moore :Oh yeah.
Gary Wise :That's, that's fine, cause that's that, in my mind, will be that yin and that yang is. That's that counterbalance, and I do think you need to plan your time to the best of your ability to ensure the people that you value feel valued, because through communication you could figure all that stuff out right? Yeah, I mean, that's huge right. And then I think, uh, to your other point, jeremy, because you know I spent a lot of time away from my family as well. Uh, that's guilt, bro, and we have it because of what we did. And the other guilty part is how much fun we had. We weren't at home, right?
Gary Wise :It's like I was talking to my kids at the day of school and I was like I used to feel guilty for being excited to deploy, because I was getting to go do the things that I'm trained to do with the people I like to do them with, and we have good times together, we joke, we laugh and we go out, we get it done and it would feel very productive. And then I'd come home and go home and just hit the wall Like this is kind of boring and I'm going all the wrong places, I'm doing the wrong thing to the kid, and you know, and I it's it's the same, no matter where you go, you know. I just I think that everybody has the same challenges, and so whenever I hear work-life balance, and yet communicating with yourself is the priority as well, right, because just communicating with your spouse or your team or whatever, what's the story you're telling to you? How are you feeling about what you're doing? How are you loving on yourself to make? Are you giving yourself that word of affirmation? Are you giving yourself those gifts? Are you giving yourself that opportunity to be in the? You giving yourself those gifts? Are you giving yourself that opportunity to be in the space where you can get the length you know? And that that all comes with emotional intelligence, maturity, right?
Gary Wise :Um, hopefully you're in a financially better place where the monkey's not on your back and you don't feel like you can't, because that's another huge stressor, right? Yeah, the bills, the bills, the bills, the bills, and I think that that's one that hopefully by people, by time folks get to our age, hopefully they're to a point where they're like okay, I'm not bitten off more than I can chew and, as a matter of fact, I'm working the plan right, because that's very helpful. Let's get back to collaboration, and all of this is a part of it, right, because what we're doing right now is having a great conversation about communication, which is what collaborating is, and what are tools that you've seen you can use to collaborate with Any ideas.
Jeremy Moore :I love the whole brainstorming method, Like we've got a that problem and it doesn't matter whose problem it is.
Jeremy Moore :It can be, hey, we're going to talk about gary's problem today and gary comes in and he's like, okay, I need to paint 24 parking spaces blue and seven red. How best to do that? And just bring people in and kind of form those ideas and you'd be amazed at one like who picks up on the nuances of how important things are and who those emotional leaders are for the problem. And that is a great way to get everybody on the same team and bought in is just talking about little things that are maybe not so important, but it brings people together.
Chris Cahill :So it's you know, yeah, from a brainstorming perspective. Intentionally, every office that I have has a big whiteboard on one wall and I'm like I don't care what I'm talking about, who I'm talking about, I almost always, inevitably, like my knee jerk. Answer is Hmm. I stand up and walk over to the whiteboard and I'm like let's think that through. So much so that I laugh three, four times a day. Somebody I'm meeting with will say can I take a picture of that? And I laugh because by the time I'm done writing on it, it looks like Einstein equations.
Chris Cahill :And I really didn't know for an hour what this meant. It was the process we used to get there. But I love brainstorming. Now if I could give you what I don't love, and this might be a generational thing. So this is not a knock on the up-and-coming generation, as much as maybe it's a knock on me and people older than me.
Chris Cahill :But in my world, if there's a problem, if somebody says, chris, fire, fire, fire, fire, I'm like, cool, pick up the phone, let's call them and work it out now, whereas they'll be like, well, let's, let's send them an email and and see what they if they get back to, I'm like, just pick up the phone, hey. So I'm like, don't, don't send an email when you could have just picked up the phone and don't text when you could have sent an email. And they're like, well, the email won't work, so just send a text. And I'm like you're looking for the shortest, quickest way to get the ball out of your side of the court and I'm looking to get the problem solved. And so a lot of times, all these Asana and Slack and all these other tools that people use to communicate, it's like you're over communicating and now I have to spend my day, responding to 13 different Slacks and 25 emails.
Chris Cahill :One person could have called me and we could have moved on.
Gary Wise :Yeah, and to that point, right, I am never a fan of a new app. I'm just not. No, I'm never a fan. I used to leave. I used to have a radio. I was on the George Washington, we all carried radios. I would get in trouble because I would literally leave my radio on my desk, because I would tell them when they would catch me.
Gary Wise :Senior chief, why don't you have a radio? Because I cannot work when you keep calling me with whatever your new problem is. I am working Like. I have sailors, I've got wrenches, I've got things to fix. I cannot be called because somebody didn't go to the freaking working party. I don't care, like we'll figure it out later. I don't care Like we'll figure it out later. And so I agree, I think, collaboration, collaboration.
Gary Wise :I'm not a fan of apps, I'm only. I'm really not a fan of meetings either. I'd be lying if I said I was and so the meeting needs to really have a format right, or there needs to be a plan. If I go to a meeting and it's not well received I mean, I've been, I've been I'll look to my boss and be like let's just go, man, like let's walk out of here because they're not ready for us. This is ridiculous, and so, and when I host meetings, right, I have. I propose the agenda, I let them know why it's going to work, I facilitate everything that's going on, and if there's a dead horse, I shoot it. Bam, you're dead, and we're moving on.
Gary Wise :Now back to brainstorming, right, because brainstorming is one of my favorites too, especially at the beginning of a team. The first thing I do once I reframe what we're going to be working on and why we're all there is everybody's typically professional in their area, right, so we just say whatever you think your concern is right, and we just all that goes on the board, right. Then what I have them do is we then rack and stack them from the most lowest priority to the highest priority, right, so what's the lowest priority like? What's the lowest concern? What's the highest? The lowest concern, what's the highest concern? And then the next list. I do we take the same list and what can be done the fastest versus what will take the longest amount of time, and what I do is I look for correlations in the list, right, I look for things that we can get after. That will not only give us some momentum, that will give us some quick wins, but we can also start to build the framework of our plan right. So because we'll decide real quick which ones like the highest priority is get the thing done. Highest priority meet the mission bottom right. So that's the end of the line right, and the fastest thing to do is have today's planning meeting. That's the left line and we've met.
Gary Wise :We call it a fishbone in the Navy. We make a fishbone which essentially plans out everything. And then we the other thing we do is I'm a I am a fan of battle rhythm or what that means is we have a plan of events every day. Or what that means is we have a plan of events every day and our collaboration points. We'll have like a morning stand up meeting. We'll have a 1500 check in and we'll only have like meeting meetings like once or twice a week. But there's there's multiple points throughout the day that we could touch paces with each other.
Gary Wise :And the other thing I think that works very effectively is partnering people up to work with other people on that team right. So if you are big into freaking painting and you're big into managing security for those parking spaces, I want you two guys to work that problem together right and give them that ball to go figure it out, because typically I'm used to running lots of things simultaneously, not just one project right. And typically at the meetings that I'm thinking about, most of the people are usually department heads of their own and they've each got 50 to 60 people behind them that they can use and they've all got priorities. So what we're doing is we're figuring out how do we sprinkle into their job jar this new addition. The other thing I'd like to just remember is I'm protective of what I ask people to take on, because I'm protective of what I will take on Right, because I'm protective of what I will take on right.
Gary Wise :And so whenever I take on, like whenever my cadets that's the team I got now whenever they want to take on a new task, like a community service event, or they want to go do something on a weekend, I will almost always ask what's the impact, what's the result if we do it, and why would we do this? Because I've got time, that things that I want to do on my weekend. Why should I not do what I want to do? Because you guys want to do this? Make me understand and I want them to understand. Think it through it, because typically we're the leaders that are the ones making the choices as a yes or no.
Gary Wise :Now, if you're in the position where it's just come down from on top and you have no way, you have no saying no, okay, then be honest, be an honest broker about the time that's required to get the job done. Don't lie to give a false narrative that we can meet a timeline. That's going to be unfair to your people and make them push back as to why it requires you to possibly be unsafe or press people outside of a box of what their, what their rules are supposed to be. And I saw that a lot in COVID. You know, in COVID we would get pressed all kinds of ways and the civilians God bless them. They would be like we're out of here, we don't get paid for that. And the military was like well, y'all have fun, we got to get it done because we don't get to go home. And what I learned from that was it's okay to say what you need to say. I think that's important because good leaders will hear that and they'll do their best to shape the timeline, to give you the time you need to be effective.
Gary Wise :Okay, let's go ahead and cut out of this one. Let's move into how can we best talk to people, how can we best communicate? Right, we got those love languages. We got those communication languages right. We got those love languages. We got those communication languages. I was dude, my I'll start in the service, or at least in my experience, because everything I'm all my experiences of the damn service right. I'll be honest, um done this since I was 18 years old and now I still use it to this day.
Gary Wise :Every op starts off with communications. It's like our number one thing how are we talking to each other? It is C2, command and control. How are we communicating? It is the beginning of every brief. This is how we're talking, this is the radios we're using, this is the network we're going to be on, this is our primary, this is our secondary, this is our tertiary right, like we are going to, and every boss I've ever had is wanting to know that. That's a laid out fact, as well as what are the call signs or what are the communication signals that everyone's going to be using?
Gary Wise :Because when you got multiple ships communicating, you got aircraft overhead, submarines below the waterline, it could get real spicy, real quick, and you, everyone needs to know who's who in the zoo, right? And so, for me, the first thing is going to be know what the channels of communication are, what they're expected to be and how we're going to use them, and that's whether it's using communication devices or people, right, because a lot of people don't have all those extra bells and whistles. But it's. If I have a problem, how do I report it to you? If I have a concern, how do I elevate it? When I'm done with what you said to do and our next meeting is not for three days, do I just sit on that and wait, or do you want that email, right? Do you want it to say in the subject line done right, like cause that to me?
Chris Cahill :I love subject lines when they say it true, and I love done. That makes my head feel so much better. Then it's ambiguous and I'm thinking 30 things I'm not sure where they're at. I love that, even if you just hit reply back done. I'm like thank the Lord.
Jeremy Moore :I love very much that same thing, but the bluff that bottom line up front, Huge. If you give me that at the very beginning of a four-foot-long email, then I'm in.
Gary Wise :I use it all the time. I still use it to this day. I taught it to the cadets because tell them up front before they even get it. Here's what you really need to know. If you're so busy you don't have the the time you'll come back to read it all late, because that's what I do, guys. I get emails in my inbox. I'll scan through them, I'll mark them as unread if I want to come back to them later, and I'll keep on pushing and then later on, when I have time, I'll go back through and I'll check them again, right? Yeah, and I use my inbox, okay, what about?
Gary Wise :Uh, when you're in these moments with people, how do you best listen and ensure you know what they were trying to tell you? And how do you? We do repeat backs a lot, right, we do repeat backs. Say what I said. Right, I mean, I'll get that deliberate. Say what I said. Say what I said I taught. I'll get that deliberate. Say what I said. Say what I said I taught the kids this week. Paraphrase what I just said in your own words, because I wanted to hear that you comprehended what I was trying to get across to you. Don't just parrot what I said say what, like tell me why I said what I said, so that way I can trust you understood how much stuff happens in the world. People don't really understand and they just keep it on their head like yep, yep, we get out of the beauty. You know what we're doing? Hell no, why does that happen?
Jeremy Moore :I mean, everybody's got something right, so everybody's got something going on. And the moment you see somebody pull this out and start, yeah, or they're checking out, or you see them like, look at their their watch, you know we can all cheat. Now. That's why I got an apple watch when I'm teaching, so I could see, like you know, anything wrong with the baby, what's going on in my life. I checked out people do that all the time so you got to get that buy-in. And if you don't have that buy-in, like, why am I here at this meeting? Oh, because I have to be here, okay.
Gary Wise :The other thing is the presenter has a requirement they got to be able to present.
Jeremy Moore :Right.
Gary Wise :God, help me. If I go to something and the person says I wasn't supposed to be here today, I will probably I can't do it, I can't do it, I can't do it.
Chris Cahill :I'm like, if somebody opens up a PowerPoint, I'm a, I'm done.
Gary Wise :Like.
Chris Cahill :I'm immediately going working in my head on something else.
Gary Wise :I'm like I don't look. I don't mind a good PowerPoint If they're just leveraging it for them.
Chris Cahill :right, that's a trigger for me. I read the book Leaders Don't Use PowerPoint, like 15 years ago and now when I see anybody, and as a public speaker and a preacher, if I see somebody pull up a PowerPoint, like girl, you literally just went from wherever you thought you were on my radar.
Jeremy Moore :Down to zero, we're done yeah.
Chris Cahill :I don't know.
Jeremy Moore :Unless it has like a picture, if it's a picture and you leave it up as a backdrop to talk to that's fine, if you pull up something with a bunch of words and bullet points. You might as well just say remove me from your circle of info that's such a Navy Marine Corps online. So once upon a time you get through a class kind of thing.
Gary Wise :Oh, 100%. Once upon a time I worked for a guy he was kind of somebody and every week we'd sit on these briefs, right, where we'd be briefing an admiral in Hawaii, we'd be in Japan, and you'd have people San Diego, pac, northwest Hawaii, and they'd all have a slide, one slide, and on that slide was stoplights and it was red, yellow, green and every one of those was a ship, right. And so if it was green, that ship was full FMC, full mission capable, right. If it's yellow, there's a thing. And then there was up arrows and down arrows. Up arrow meant something went up down arrow, something went down right, and all we would talk about are the red and the yellows and not the greens.
Gary Wise :And the amount of man hours that went into that slide was freaking painful. Right, because I mean you got super good people leaders. They just were in charge of whole ships yesterday and today there are some staff hand-jamming a freaking slide for this four-star that's going to scrape their face off with a bloody knife. I don't mind slides if that's a communication tool the organization has designed to make be a way to communicate, as long as everyone is trained to know what they're for. The presenter is ready to brief it right, and we're only going to talk about what matters, right? We're not going to be telling me how great you are because I, I just I don't. That for me is not value. Now I went to a thing last year for my job in the school district. I had to go get training on being nice to people, and so I went to this training and I swear to you the presenter, the first thing she said was I'm sorry everybody.
Gary Wise :And I was like, oh my God, this happens here too. What the heck you know? So just words for people that are out there. I don't care if you woke up today and you were surprised to be the guy they don't need to know that. It doesn't make it any easier for you. It doesn't matter. You're awesome, you got the opportunity. Rock it.
Jeremy Moore :Please add more than five extra words to a slide, if you're going to read it. Right, don't read it. Yeah, don't read it.
Gary Wise :You heard me talk about battle rhythm earlier and I talked about how there were strategic points of checking in right. How important is it to tell your people to have regular points of contact with you?
Chris Cahill :Okay, for me that's a biggie.
Chris Cahill :Sops are a biggie and time blocking is a biggie, as busy as I am and my teams are yeah, yeah, I I time block my entire life um, including when I'm going to ride my motorcycle at night if I need a breather, like everything is time block um, almost, almost to the point of, like you would say it's an ocd life 24, 7 time block um. But for my teams, as it relates to teams, we do have our, like, the monday mornings and we do have our, our stand-up meetings and we do have our, our touch standup meetings and we do have our, our, our touch bases and our and our debriefs and stuff, and I actually make make all of everyone on the teams has to put those on the same time block. So we all have the same exact time blocks. And I know, hey, from eight o'clock until eight 15, you're doing this with that meeting at eight 15, you're meeting those.
Chris Cahill :Cause my life is all meetings, meeting after meeting. I can't afford to not know what's going on, but I also can't afford to stop and babysit, so I need to be able to look at the calendar and be like, oh, it's Tuesday, it's 1215. I know these three people are working on this. I can stop in on that and see what's going on or whatever. And I think it's important because communication and collaboration are the two most important parts of this whole thing, and if you don't have to me, if you don't have that time block, you're winging it and things fall through the cracks.
Jeremy Moore :Yeah, what about you, jerry? Well, I mean, yeah, definitely having those you know set times that we're going to check in, but also the level of necessity. Is this a face-to-face, like Chris was saying earlier? Is this a phone call or is this an email or is this a text? Kind of thing, like having those check-ins and making sure everybody understands what level check-in this is, so that we can you know, so we can get there, and then even having those you know set times of just one-on-one, where it's outside of the project but very much a part of the job, are you doing like, have you, you know?
Jeremy Moore :what you got, on what hours you got in the fire and how is this going to affect you, kind of thing. And then at the very end, I think one of the biggest for the team that always gets missed is having that after action rap. What did we do here? How did that go? What could we have done better? What did we suck at? And everybody's afraid to say that, oh well, these are opportunities and, you know, throw that HR spin on it, but what did we suck at? You know why did we suck? How did how can we? You know, how can we make that better?
Jeremy Moore :Not everybody's going to see that. Oh, that was a problem because you know Tommy didn't show up with the water at this time, or you know people aren't going to see those kinds of things. But you know, you know that your team missed a cylinder somewhere. You know you didn't fire and and how are we going to fix it? So that after action is like to me if I were going to pick one that I would not ever miss for anything, even if I had to crawl out of bed and jump on somebody's phone is I got to be there for that after action?
Gary Wise :you know. So one thing about that, right, because I agree, after action reports are critical, because that's how you you could bring it up and dust it off for the future, right? So for me, because we do a hot wash typically and then we do after action, and I stopped hot wash meetings when I was on board the carrier, because I'm like getting free. My training team was a hundred people on a 5,000 people ship and we already had a two hour long drill. Everyone's exhausted, we're tired, we all want to take showers, go to bed. Having a fricking hour long debrief is not what they need. So what I learned to do and I still do this to this day is I touch bases with all my key leaders and they give me their wave tops and I just get it from them and then I coordinate the after action meeting. But I've already got all the big rocks, like the big ones, because I already kind of knew it all anyway. And then I prepare that format for that after action meeting and I do it when everyone's rested, they're no longer emotional, right, and they're able to actually hear what really happened. Because unfortunately, typically there's like other things you didn't know that contributed to the problem and and I'll tell you, especially god, when we have like, well, somebody got hurt or we got somebody went sideways or we broke something that costs a lot of money right, like we've really.
Gary Wise :One thing I learned about when I got to the cmc game was to be slow, and it goes against my methodology from being a damage control man because as a dc man I would run there real fast and then I'd get to the fire, get to the casualty, get to the flood and if nobody was dying I'd lock it down and then I'd make it real slow, right, but if somebody was dying we had to save them. We gotta go, go, go. But as a cmc I learned let it develop a little bit longer, let's let's, let's let it, let's let it go a little bit longer and let it come out a little bit and see what's going on before we just jump right in there, because there may be something that has not yet come to light and we need to better understand the problem, because typically me or my boss, we can't afford to make a mistake by jumping the gun right. There's no take backs on that right, and I've learned that with the same thing with the kids right at my school. I've learned to. I'll hear the word, I'll hear the rumors, I'll hear the mess that I struggle but, and I'll wait till they get there. I'm like, hey, man, how are you doing what's going on? And get that other perspective. And then remind myself there's always three sides to every story yeah and to and don't, because.
Gary Wise :But my, even though my instinct is to want to just go get the information right away, um, okay, so I think back on this and just kind of wrapping this one up uh, how important is it to simplify your expectations for communication? Now to your other point. If you recognize they need to talk, they're giving you non-verbals, there's trust, or they're like jeremy man, can we talk for a minute? I need something. I mean I, whenever the kids come tell me, mash, we talk outside, I'm always like that's my favorite kind of conversation. Yeah, because that means you came to get me and you need me to help you with something that's private. So we got to go outside and my whole day can change like that, because I will do everything in my power to focus on them. How do you inspire that to happen? But also provide for simple day to day comms so it's not going to kill your inbox right or not going to kill their productivity because they got to do a million reports to somebody, so I got it. So here's.
Chris Cahill :I have a rule If it's not on one page, it's too much. It can't be two pages, it can't be three pages, it can't be four pages. And the same thing is with an email. If you email me something and I have to scroll, you're wrong. And now so the way to get around? That is, and this is kind of like when you put the important stuff at the top, but to me I want anything you have to tell me to somehow fit into one page. But then, like, if I'm sending you something and I'm working with you as a team member for a project we're working on, let's say, a public speaking event you and I are collaborating to build, I'm going to put a lot of work into creating all the content and everything you need and make it very clear and not miss nuances, which can be problematic when you oversimplify. And what will happen is, though, I'll save it as a Word doc and then I'll send you an email, but then in the email, the email is going to be three sentences of exactly what matters, and then the attachment, kind of like we were talking about before with the email, and then you could scroll through later.
Chris Cahill :I do the exact same thing because I have so many meetings every single day. If I really tried to absorb everything from every meeting, my eyes would glaze over by lunch every day of my life. Everything from every meeting. My eyes would glaze over by lunch every day of my life. So I have to only know what really matters and then, if I really have trouble later I'll dig into the emails and find the attachment and do the homework. But to go from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, eight, nine, 10 times a day every day of my life, I can't afford to know everything about everything.
Chris Cahill :So for me, you need to simplify the message. You need to be clear, you need to break it down into like an outline format. Here's what you need to know. Here's a subcontext. Here's what you need to know. Here's a subcontext. And if you need to know more of the attachments on the email, have a good day, like it needs to be that simple.
Chris Cahill :And even as a salesperson which is part of my job but I'm going to send you a front page that really quickly says here's where you are, here's where you could go. If you want to do it, it takes this step to move forward See attached and that way, most people are like oh, I like where I should go and all I got to do is click here, got it. Most people aren't going to read all um. So to me, simplifying is everything. And if you send me a business plan to review and it's 50 pages, I'm like you're not even going to read that business plan. You're going to put in a drawer and never look at it till next year when you write it again. Put that business plan down to one page that says here's my five priorities and I'm going to do this to get there. That's it.
Jeremy Moore :Yeah, I'm very much a a bullet guy too. Like you know, my manager walks in the office and he's like hey, boss, we got a problem. Like what's the problem? Where are we at with you know? Who can we leverage to? You know, find out more about this and how are we going to fix it, kind of thing. Don't walk in and give me my. My middle child was terrible with this long drawn out story with like how people were you know what they were wearing and what they were doing. I was like I just need tell me the problem, let me know if you need help fixing it or if you, if I'm fixing it or if I'm just letting you. You know de-stress, and so yeah, give me bullet points and then if I need to dig in, I'm ready I'll tell you for me when they start giving me too much information, that's not really important.
Gary Wise :I'm like why are you trying to? What are you camouflaging, bro? Like? I will cut straight to the chase on you because, but here's the thing, how do they know what I want? I train them, I tell them my expectations and I show them by my delivery to them Right. I hold myself to the same rules, to the same standards, and I hold the same line, even though typically I am theoretically the senior Right and I say theoretically, cause they probably outrank me Right but I'm still the one they're looking to for like master chief. How would you do X, y or Z and I and I and I? I have to teach. I teach them to understand. Like people's time is valuable.
Gary Wise :If you're a professional at a certain level, your words matter. Use them wisely, but say what you need to say and don't be worried about saying it wrong, because as long as you're I mean as long as your heart's in the right place, people are going to overlook you making a mistake. Now you send me a long, 15 page email that you typed all these freaking words, brother, I I to all of your points. I mean I've literally. First of all, I hate reply to alls as well, but I've literally seen a reply to all that said if you think anyone is reading this, you're the problem, and it was just. I mean, that was the point, though.
Gary Wise :Right, you had to get publicly smacked down because you sent an email to a bunch of senior key leaders that all just want to none of us, we don't number one, we don't all need to know the information. That's number one and number two. You just kind of just trying to either stroke your ego or show what you know, but either way, none of us are going to read that, right? Okay, I think, last but not least, people need to communicate their preferences as to how they want to communicate. I think that everyone has a responsibility for. For me, for example, I do not mind virtual communications. I do not mind them, right? I covid taught us anything. It taught us how easy it was to jump on a call and have the same level of communication as face-to-face. As long as I can see your eyes.
Chris Cahill :I was going to say that's the key. I do not like anything important on the phone, but if I can see, you.
Gary Wise :We're good, exactly right. And most computers nowadays give me this capability, right. So, whether it's a cell phone, whether it's a computer, that's one of my favorite ways to communicate, because I don't like to drive somewhere and drive back, if I can help it. You're killing my productivity in other areas, right. And so I love virtual meetings. I don't mind in-person meetings, but let's be ready to have the meeting, right. Let's be ready because we both come from somewhere, come somewhere and we're going back somewhere else, because we're not all living in the same house right Now.
Gary Wise :If we all worked in the same building, which is why if I had a building full of employees, I would want them in the building, because it's just like being on the ship, everybody's where I could touch them. Now, those were great, right, but I're everyone should have preferences to communication. I think the other thing is that people are uncomfortable communicating. They owe that information in the hiring process, right, and I believe we should ask that question, because nothing is more frustrating when somebody needs to be a communicator and all of a sudden, now they've got a, they've got a complication with it, or it's a challenge, and it's a big challenge, right, like they can handle, like they might have severe anxiety so they can't give a presentation, or they might have severe depression and they're going like I don't mind mental health challenges. I get it, bro, but if communication is it going to cause you to be in a space where you can't do it, maybe certain positions aren't for you and if you want to work through it, get the help you need. So you can.
Gary Wise :But it's not fair to people that have to pinch hit for you all the time because you're tapping out, because you don't want to be the one that does it. Right, I just, for me, that's. That's a tough one. Yeah, and I know it's kind of a taboo thing, but I would tell you the amount of the amount of people that I see in today's society that neurological nuance and then unfortunately put and they leverage it when it puts them in uncomfortable situations. It's like we need you to work past that or you're not gonna. You're gonna be limited, you're gonna be limited, and I'm not gonna lie to somebody that's on my team. Matter of fact, for my students get in front of the class and you're gonna speak. Bro, right now I need you to learn how to speak in front of people, because what bothers you is all those eyes looking back at you.
Jeremy Moore :Yeah, but then you remember that everybody else is in the same boat regardless. You know everybody started somewhere. You just got to get used to it.
Gary Wise :That's what they have to learn.
Chris Cahill :I always laugh, gary, because as a Christian, I don't fear death and as a preacher and public speaker, I don't fear public speaking. And they always say, the two biggest things people fear are death and public speaking. And I'm like, when you're a preacher, you're not afraid of anything.
Gary Wise :I guess People really do fear it, man, and it's not. Just. Remember the whole collaboration thing, right? People will not collaborate openly because they're afraid to get embarrassed or humiliated or made fun of. And then what's frustrating is they? I will literally look right at them and say you have not said a word. Give me something now, please, Because you might be the one that has the information that I need to hear. And you just haven't said it because you're waiting on an invitation to speak, and that's typically it, and then I'll tell them in the future. Please don't wait for an invitation to speak in my meetings, because I want you to be an act. Suit up, baby. We're playing the game. This is the game. This is a chance for us to make the sausage that we're all going to eat later.
Chris Cahill :So I I actually struggled because I fail to comprehend how people would not want to engage, because it's so. It's such a big part of my DNA. So when people you have to pull content out of people like I don't even I go home and I'm like what is wrong with that person? I don't get it.
Jeremy Moore :I mean, I work with people right now that have all kinds of speech impediments and they're still up there briefing, because that is Part of their job and I'm not here To, you know, judge someone on what they've got going on, because really what I'm trying to do is take in what they're doing and I'm trying to Prepare myself to spit out what I need to spit out. You know, and I'll tell you guys, to me I'm trying to prepare myself to spit out what I need to spit out you know, and you just got to find that time To me.
Gary Wise :I look at all my people as my responsibility. Right, it's just how I've been trained. And so if it's my responsibility to help get you to grow and I recognize you have a challenge with communicating I'm going to make you communicate because I want you to become better, so we can become better, and I'm not afraid, if you leave me, to go somewhere else. And as I look at all these people in the world, especially young people that have these challenges, that in high school they get all these advantages at things, I tell them I don't care, because guess what's not going to matter. When you graduate high school, you're not going to get those advantages anymore. And so in ninth grade I'll work with you. In 10th grade I will start to wean you off of that. But by 11th grade I need you to stop using your little freaking, get out of jail I like card on me and start giving me some results. Because once you graduate high school, no one in college, nobody in tech school, nobody in the job that hires you is going to care that you can't perform. They're just going to fire you because you can't perform and you took the job and so don't wait. And so now, as a person because, like you guys, I do care about people. I've seen him in the Navy all the time. I see him all the time in my classroom when I recognize they have communication problems, even as a dad right, even as a dad raising kids trying hey, I'm not perfect, I've got my communication challenges. So I try to tell them how I learned how to better communicate, because I believe still, like with anything in this life, sharing our experiences is always a powerful way to get them to see how they can better improve. But I do think training communication is critical in every organization. Train them about how to communicate within your organization.
Gary Wise :Okay, let's get into it. Okay, our last topic. This is for me, chris, you said earlier, earlier you know it's about about collaboration, about communication, but for me, man, it's always about trust. Everything's about trust, everything. Trust is the foundation. And look, I'm okay if your trust for me is purely professional, yeah right, I'm good, that's what I give.
Gary Wise :I was raised by my parents to give people a certain amount of trust out the gate. Look a man in his eyes when he shake his hand and trust that he's not going to stab you in the back they look you back in the eyes and that you're going to have a fair exchange, right? So now I'll trust you until you show me I can't trust you anymore. And that's I'm not saying trust them with your firstborn son. But hey, sir, shake hands. What can I do for you? Right, how can I help? Where can we be involved? But let's start off first with how, unfortunately in this world today, are people fracturing trust with the people in the world around them Are people fracturing trust with the people in the world around them.
Chris Cahill :Well, all right, this, if I actually you know how they say at the beginning of the year, pick a word and this is your word for the year, or whatever it may be. So I actually picked one. It was my work of things that I try to figure out everything that I don't like in the world and summarize it in one word, and I came up with one word, and the one word that embodies everything I don't like is incompetence. Okay, and I bring that back, though, to the concept that you're talking about here with trust, and I expect the best out of everybody and am constantly let down, particularly even in the small business community here in Ocala. If you've ever done anything, I'll give you an example that anybody in Ocala can relate to.
Chris Cahill :My dad is in a wheelchair now and doesn't have very long to live Because of that. We had to get a bathroom put in the house 18 months ago. They came and they ripped down the wall and put up some plastic. The plastic is still there and no one has come back. We called to get somebody else. Someone else came and tried to fix it at another company and drove a truck over the septic tank and broke the septic tank and they didn't come back. And now there's a bunch of lawsuits happening. My dad is going to be gone gone home to see the Lord before there's ever going to be a bathroom that he can use. So right now we still have to pick them up and carry them into the bathroom every day.
Chris Cahill :And if you've ever tried to get a project done here in Ocala unfortunately that happens all the time People say, yeah, I can help you. Here's the quote. It gets halfway done or half done at a D level or a C minus level, and over and over and over again. And that same thing happens when I try to work because I consult businesses as my clients. Well, those same types of people that treat their own clients like that when they're my client. If they're treating others like that, how do you think they're treating themselves the same?
Chris Cahill :And so I'll say, hey, I need you to get this done over the next 30 days because we got a tax deadline, whatever. It is. 45 days later I days because we got a tax deadline, whatever it is. 45 days later I'm calling them saying, dude, you missed the deadlines, You're going to get penalty to, whatever it's, one thing after another and even if I partner with somebody, or a marketing agency, for example are always letting me down. I'll work with a marketing agency to help one of my clients and they'll over-promise and under-deliver time after time after time, again to where I feel like the MO of Ocala is. I will promise you the moon and give you a C minus every time. And if you just put that on your business card and then I know you're from Ocala and unfortunately that's how it really truly is, and I see it so many times, so often, that I basically just feel like I live in a world of incompetence.
Gary Wise :I worked with a buddy of mine once upon a time.
Chris Cahill :He used to say low expectations man, no disappointments and unfortunately, he's right and I hate that because I look at everybody and I see their potential, I see their best and I want to trust them at face value. If you shake my hand, but then when you let me down once, shame on me. But when you've let me down 12 times, I have to look around and be like why is this so consistent everywhere?
Gary Wise :Look, man, I think it's broken promises will take away trust. Right, and your word is your bond and you've got to be consistent and unfortunately, the experience that you're having is not uncommon right, especially in the service industries. Uncommon right, especially in the service industries. And this is where you get handyman that get bad names or you get small businesses that don't have strong insurance or whatever People are like. How did you just pick that person? And yet I tend to just go out on a limb and trust people. And you know, don't be terrified, gary. Well, I don't know a million people like.
Gary Wise :When I got my floors done in my house, I was in guam. I'd never even been in this house before, but I knew I wanted these floors done in my house before I got here, and so I asked my realtor to give me a recommendation of somebody she thought was going to be good. I got a ahold of the guy. I talked to him on the phone dude, gentlemen's conversation. I dude said, roger, that I'll do what I got. I'll do what I can do. I'm talking like 20 something, 30 something, thousand dollars of work getting done on my house before I even got here, and I'll never forget.
Gary Wise :I pulled to the house and our whole deal was, once I got here we had to go have a beer. And I was like we got to go have a beer. Our whole deal was, once I got here we had to go have a beer. Right, and I was like we got to go have a beer. So he told me, and so we went and had a beer. And I remember just thinking like that this really worked out, man, because I kind of got really screwed. I would have trusted the wrong person, and so I think that's this is where people always are burnt, a little bit about trusting Cause you don't know what experiences somebody had in the in the previous time. Right, and here come you, here you come, trust me.
Chris Cahill :and they're like oh, I've heard that before I will say this because of that gary I had, I started this spreadsheet called I've got a guy and it's everything from handyman to fence repair to what. Anytime I work with somebody or a client or a friend works with somebody that truly follows through. You can trust them. They they're, they give you the price. They say they're transparent, that's something we can talk about and they actually follow through with their promises and they do as good a job or better than they said they said they would and they're on time or sooner.
Chris Cahill :When I find that guy or girl, I put them on this spreadsheet and I still have a lot of gaps in there. So maybe some of your listeners, if they think they're that person, maybe they can reach out to you online and say, hey, I'm that person. I want to be on the I've got a guy list Because if they are, I'd love to meet them and vet them, because I've got this whole board at my office of business cards that are only of people that I know personally or have been vetted by people like I trust that. So if you come into my office you're like hey, man, I'm moving, I need a realtor and I need somebody to take pictures of the house and I need this. I'm like I got the guy and I trust them and I know them and I'm trying to build that and I've got gaps. So tell your viewers if they think you're that, chime in. I think the other thing is.
Gary Wise :I think we lose sight of how big the world is because we have these bad experiences and we do start to think that it is a representation of something.
Gary Wise :And then I'll go somewhere. It'll be full of people that I have no idea who anybody is in the room and I'll be like this place is still pretty big. I'll be on LinkedIn, I'll be looking. I'm thinking I'm pretty much connected, everybody in the world, to Nocala and all of a sudden, the whole new fricking group people. I'm like this place is a lot bigger than I think it is and that's the world right, because of technology. Jeremy. Okay, jeremy, I want to go ahead and come to you. If someone loses the trust of their people, or of their family, or of themselves, how, how can they get that trust back?
Jeremy Moore :Well, I mean, first and foremost, they got to want to get it back and and I guess that step, you know, decides which way you're going you got to got to put in the work, you've got to get back there in the trenches and you know it's like credit You're not born with an 800 score. You know you've got to kind of build up to it once you get there. And it's one of those things that you're not going to walk in with all the trust in the world. You might walk into a room with a certain amount of trust just because of where you've been, what you've done or who you are or whatever, but you've got to have that trust with someone and a lot of it, you know, is, you know, know, shaking hands and talking and and having that face-to-face conversation with someone and looking at what they're doing while you're talking to them, so they're not like you know, or looking down at their phone or you know you gotta, you gotta build those relationships and that level of trust.
Jeremy Moore :Like chris was saying, that you know I've got a guy, kind of thing like that's awesome, because that's what I do too.
Jeremy Moore :You know I've got, you know I I probably have most every doctor's business card in the whole county and but I've got a separate binder for the ones that I know like I can pick up the phone or I can text them and they're going to be like hey, jeremy, what you know, what's going on? Versus the oh man, I I must've missed your call, I didn't see you know, or or whatever. The people that are in tune and connected to what's important. And then you know it's that focus. You got the people that are just focused on dollar signs and they're not putting out the product like they should, like you were saying earlier, chris, like. And then you've got the people that are trying to build those relationships and that trust and those, um, you know those relationships across the board so that you can connect with other people and be like hey, I need this and and doing all that footwork and legwork, and that is that trust building. You know you got to get there.
Chris Cahill :And relationships are important and unfortunately it's also just become a buzzword like think outside the box or whatever, because everybody's like, well, I'm different, I really focus on building relationships and I'm like, well, that's what now everybody says and nobody. I won't say nobody, very few actually do. And you know, if you go to like a BNI or a chamber of commerce, it's they always just talk about relationships, relationships, relationships. And the reality is, even within those groups, yeah, there are circles that are really good with relationships, and then there's a lot of other people that they put it on their, on their website, because they don't really have a real value proposition. So the only thing they could say is well, we value relationships, and that's that's not true either. So, unfortunately, when I hear people say relationships inside, I'm usually rolling my eyes because I just hear it as a buzzword anymore.
Jeremy Moore :Yeah, well, you got to have that network and that's what that relationship is, and well, you got to have that network, and that's what that relationship is. And you know, that was the biggest thing I learned, obviously as a chief was just networking. And you know people, instead of like looking on google and like, oh, who are the plumbers?
Chris Cahill :it's like talk to my friend down the road.
Jeremy Moore :Who you know does yeah, you know renovations and stuff. Who do you know what's you know?
Gary Wise :you know, I, for me, you know, I feel like since I was a teenager, I've had a reputation that was bigger than who I really was. You know, it was like people would meet me and they wouldn't believe I was me. You know, they would just be like because they all expected me to be taller, they all expected me to be brought bigger, they all they always had these things that they I would.
Gary Wise :I would never meet their expectations for who I was going to be you know. That's great, though, and for me, my networking, my relationship, my whatever is if someone says they know me, all those things are implied, in my opinion, right. If you could say you know me, those are all implied right, because typically, if you know me and you reach out to me, I'm probably going to want to do whatever I can to work with you, serve with you, or whatever it's going to be. Otherwise, you might just be using my name in vain and dropping my name, but I don't really know you like that, right, and I've learned, when you're in leadership positions that happens a lot. That kind of comes with the territory, right, and then my trust will be bent before I even walk in the room because someone's like well, you said this, I did not Right, but somebody used my name in vain and now I've got to come answer for it.
Gary Wise :You know a couple of things for me, to your point, jeremy, in order for someone to get back trust, you have got to be sorry for however you lost the trust. You have got to be sorry for however you lost the trust, even if it's a miscommunication that you had no part in. I will empathize that you're frustrated by it, even though I'm not sympathetic to it, because that wasn't me. But I'll empathize with you. Next up is I love a comeback. I love a comeback story. I'm in it for a comeback story.
Gary Wise :I love giving people second chances because, god knows, I get I need them Right. But my second chances typically have rules. And oh, by the way, if you think you lost trust in me, typically it's because you're having an overreaction is something that you didn't want me to do. That's not trust. You don't like the consequences to your decisions. You don't like the consequences Because what you're going to get from me is consistent, bro, I'm going to be the same person always. I don't care if I'm at home with my wife and kids or if I'm at school with the people I'm on the phone with you guys or with a bunch of chiefs in the mess.
Gary Wise :You said the thing that, gary. I will say what needs to be said, right, and you can bet on that, and you don't have to like it. We don't have to be mad at each other. We don't have to be best friends. We don't have to watch cable tv together afterwards. I'm okay, right, yeah, but don't say you don't trust me, right? That's not fair. That's just you using words trying to hurt people. Don't just bother, but you can't trust them. And I've had to deal with that too, right? People will say, oh, they're just going to say whatever the boss wants them to say. No, I agree with the boss, he's the boss Next, right, like that's just how it is.
Jeremy Moore :You've got different trust spectrum. So have you ever seen like the special operations, uh trust spectrum where they talk about like the guy I would want to be in a firefight with, versus the guy I want to leave my spouse in the room with? You know that thing, and kind of how people can skew that because there are people right now that I haven't talked to in 20 years that I can call and be like, hey man, I need some help. I just need you to talk to me or whatever. We'll pick right back up where we're at, because we trusted each other on this level for this. At the same time, I'm not going to be like, hey man, I haven't seen you in 20 years. Come on in and spend a night at my house with my kids and my family and everything, just because I don't, you know, I didn't, I don't know you now kind of thing, and it's, it's finding that that level too.
Gary Wise :So we had a cadet this week get busted with some stuff that he's not supposed to have, and he wants to come back to my program next year and I'm pretty solid about my rules. Like, at the end of the day, I don't entertain certain things right, it's just not a thing for me. And rules Like, at the end of the day, I don't entertain certain things right, it's just not a thing for me. And so I'm not always the decision maker, but I'm not going to be quiet about it. I think my eject button is going to work today and you're going to be gone, bro.
Gary Wise :And we were doing the open talking where everyone could ask questions, and I was in the front and the students wanted to ask me questions and I said, sure, I'll take them. And he asked me in front of the whole group of kids how come you don't want me to come back to the program? He says because you don't trust me. I said it's not that I don't trust you. I never trusted you to the level that you could have broken my trust. Bro, that's just not going to happen. Just, you're a kid, I'm going to trust you to be a kid. To be a kid, I'm going to trust you to be a cadet.
Gary Wise :What I don't like is the consequence you brought on all of us because of your actions, which made us all look the way that I don't want us to look, and so, based off of your actions, you made those choices. My recommendation is you don't need to be in the room. Does that mean I hate you? No, got nothing but love for you, bro. I want to do great things somewhere else, but if you want to hear that, if you're going to ask me from all these people the truth, um, and then the next kid said is that, why me too?
Gary Wise :I said well, dad, because I don't like the way you treat your girlfriend. I think that's not good. Look for us either. Treat you know we don't treat people like that right, and she's not welcome back either. And I, hey, I got no problem saying it out loud because I'm consistent and I learned that the hard way. I learned that even if I have a conversation in the mess or behind a closed door, I got to be ready to stand 10 toes down for that conversation that fast and not flinch. Not flinch and not even be upset that somebody else knows, because people are going to talk and you're going to trust that I'm going to be consistent and I'm not going to be here to sugarcoat everything for you and I want to see the best for everybody. But brother, sister, here it comes. It's coming in hot. All right, guys, this was a great conversation. Once again, I appreciate you guys so much for doing this. Any safe rounds? No, chris, you got anything closed out?
Chris Cahill :No, brother, I loved it, nothing else.
Gary Wise :Yeah, jeremy, you good to go.
Jeremy Moore :Yeah, I'm good.
Gary Wise :Awesome, all right. So a couple of weeks from now, I'll send you guys an email Let you know what the next topic is going to be. If you get any things on your mind between now and then and you want to talk or chop it up, shoot me a message I'm always working on stuff, just like you guys and let me know. But until next time, I will see you guys later.
Chris Cahill :All right brother, God bless.
