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Words from the Wise
Join Words from the Wise with Gary Wise, a retired Navy Command Master Chief, for authentic leadership insights forged in real-world experience. Through engaging discussions and actionable strategies, Gary empowers you to master emotional intelligence, build resilient teams, and unlock your full potential. Tune in for practical advice on delegation, conflict management, and inspiring others, drawn from his over 28 years of service and ongoing leader mentorship headquartered now in Ocala, Florida.
Words from the Wise
Is "Burnout" Just a Trendy Excuse or a Real Crisis?
The moment I thought I was having a heart attack in the ER, everything changed. That's when I realized my "burnout" was actually something much deeper.
In this raw and unfiltered conversation, host Gary Wise and guest Chris Cahill tackle burnout head-on, asking the uncomfortable question: is it really just a trendy excuse or a legitimate crisis? As two high-performing leaders who've faced their own mental health battles, they offer a perspective you rarely hear—honest, vulnerable, and without the sugarcoating.
Together they explore the crucial difference between temporary exhaustion and genuine burnout, revealing how burnout often functions as an early warning system for deeper issues. "When you're doing the thing you were made to do," Chris explains, "you don't typically feel burnout." This insight sets the stage for a profound discussion about alignment, purpose, and the warning signs we typically ignore until it's too late.
The conversation takes a practical turn as they share their personal strategies for overcoming burnout: Gary's methodical approach of identifying stressors, having crucial conversations, and focusing on physical restoration contrasts with Chris's more radical "ghosting" technique—intentionally withdrawing from all non-essential relationships and commitments for extended periods. Both emphasize how boundaries, spiritual practices, and authentic relationships have been life-saving tools in their journeys.
For leaders, this episode offers invaluable wisdom on recognizing burnout in team members before it becomes debilitating, while for anyone struggling with mental health challenges, it provides both solidarity and actionable steps toward healing. As we navigate Mental Health Awareness Month, this timely conversation reminds us that behind the burnout label often lies a deeper story—one that deserves our compassion, attention, and intentional care.
If something in this episode resonates with your experience, we'd love to hear from you. And remember, help is always available—the 988 crisis line is just a call or text away.
And I know I was born for this. I know I was born for this. Don't care for the critics. My words and my physics are for us, that they can't stop. They just don't get it. I think they forget. I'm not done till I'm on top. I know.
Chris Cahill :I was born for this. I know I was born for this.
Gary Wise:I believe. I believe we can write a story. All right, good evening, good afternoon, good morning. Everybody out there in the world. I'm not sure what time you're listening to this, watching this video, but I just want to remind you. I'm Gary Wise. This is Wise Leadership Solutions, aka Words from the Wise. This is a podcast where we talk about pretty much all things leadership, while we also get into things that are intriguing, that make us want to actually think about it and hopefully have some high-level conversations that are going to make you want to be a part of the journey with us. My name is Gary Wise, I am the host, and tonight I am joined with my co-host, my compadre, mr Chris Cahill. Chris, what's up, bro?
Chris Cahill :Hey brother, Good to see you, man Getting towards the end of the week. Man, Hope you're having a great week.
Gary Wise:I'm having a great week. It is the end of the week at this point in time. Yeah, looking forward to the weekend, looking forward, hopefully, to some pool time, enjoying the summer.
Chris Cahill :Amen.
Gary Wise:Yeah, hey. So you know I was thinking about items for the podcast. I was talking with Chris about some different things, because, you know, one of the things that I don't want to do is I don't want to get repetitive or I don't want to get to the space where it feels like, you know, all we're saying are the glossy things that hopefully everybody hears and they recognize and they value, but they also hear the perspective that they're also carrying, which is what we want to embody, because both Chris and I we're authentic to a fault. I guess you could say that's right, but it's also been part of our success. I would argue that being consistent Consistency is hard if you're not being authentic, Right, yeah, so the goal for tonight is we're going to discuss this thing called burnout, right, and is it even really a thing?
Gary Wise:Right? And I say that from the perspective of we got this hustle culture. It feels like you always have to be busy. If you're not, you ever been around people where it's like comparing all the things you're doing versus what they're doing, and if you're not doing enough, like someone's keeping track, okay, um, my question, or my, I guess my premise, is uh, can somebody be burned out? Is that really a thing? Or is it really just like they're going through another thing and they're using burnout like as a term to classify it? Right, like, for example, maybe I'm tired of doing something but I don't want to admit it, right? So I just say I'm burned out. Or maybe I'm depressed, right, maybe I'm depressed, maybe I'm no kidding, legit sad, but I use the term burnout. Uh, what do you think, chris?
Chris Cahill :Yeah. So this is actually a huge topic for me and it's something that I'm personally actually working through and kind of working on my own mental health and some stuff, and I would say burnout absolutely is a real thing. But I would say that some of those kind of symptoms that you talked about or what have you maybe causes antecedents are also appropriate, you know, because when you're doing the thing that you were made to do, you don't typically feel burnout, or at least you can go much further. You know you can. When I'm doing the job exactly the way I want working with the clients that I want, doing the things that I want I don't sleep and I am a workaholic and I used to think that was a problem.
Chris Cahill :People would talk about work-life balance and I found out, you know I'm just wired to be passionate about things that I do and you know I'll be up working at six and I'll be working at midnight every day, six days a week, and so I found when I'm doing the things that I like, I don't get burned out, but when I start adding what I call spostas, you're supposed to do this, you're supposed to do that, you're supposed to check this box, you're supposed to check that box. All of a sudden I do get burned out, and so the burnout really comes from a lack of alignment, not necessarily from the amount of effort.
Gary Wise:Okay. So I agree, you know, lack I think lack of alignment is a good way to put it, because for me, as I thought about this topic and again like you, high-performing individual, for a long time, and when I first got to my I would say notification that I had a mental health problem, it was legit. The doctor was like, master Chief, you might want to go talk to the other doctor, because it's not the other things we've ruled out. I didn't believe them that it could be mental health and I never, ever, ever was allowed to burn out, right, but I was burnt, I was cooked. I was cooked. I had no idea.
Gary Wise:I was just drinking more coffee and working harder and then wondering why I'm shaking all the time, or why am I always thinking about the worst possible scenario? Or why am I not feeling like I'm getting enough sleep, or why can't I? There was all these different things and I will tell you that I mean for me, burnout. If there is such a thing as burnout because that was the kind of the question that I was pondering today is, if it is burnout, how do I distinguish burnout from other deeper things? Because for me, burnout's an indicator, it's almost like an early warning system of like all right, gary, you're starting to burn out because you're not taking care of other things. And then you said it you're adding on additional things to areas of responsibility that you're already focusing a lot of your energy on. And then you start to.
Gary Wise:I remember when I was younger, I used to literally just stop everything, right, and like stop it all, list it all out, reprioritize it and then start again, because I would be balancing so much crap, so much on my plate and I would feel alone, like I would feel like nobody else is managing all these problems but me, right? And so I think, when it comes to burnout, one of the areas that for me are a hard part is how do you tell somebody that you're going through that? And then and here's my reason for not telling somebody I feel either judged like they're going to be like well, I told you you're doing too much, or I told you to try you're working too hard, or I told you so I don't want to hear that. Right, that's one, and the other thing is um, I think that's probably my only one. To be honest with you, I just don't want someone to tell me I'm doing too much, because typically, I like to work, I like to feel fulfilled, I like to be busy, right.
Chris Cahill :Yeah, so there's a, there's a. There's a pastor out in New York which, in my opinion, is the most authentic preacher pastor I've ever seen and his whole thing is about mental health and he's been. He's gone through PTSD, he's gone through trauma, he's gone through physical and sexual abuse as a child. He's gone through life things and he was preaching at churches and essentially he was told to step down. And the reality was if I'm summarizing his life, he was told to step down because he was too authentic and they were like well, as a pastor, you got to be careful, you got to be above reproach and he's not like that. He's one of those. Look, I'm struggling and I'm going to tell you how about it.
Chris Cahill :And not in a way that that that that detracts from from from Jesus Christ, but in a true way. And the weird thing is and I'm very much the same way and what I find is I attract people that are, can be authentic with themselves and aren't afraid to be vocal about hey, I need help, or I just need you to listen. And when you get the people that want to look perfect on Facebook and life is good and use all the church, use all the Christian ease, praise the Lord, god is good all the time. All the time God is good and all this is like brother, let's be real. You just lost a child in a car tragic car accident and you're you're trying to smile and I appreciate the upness in your, in your, in your spirit, but you're hurting and we can tell. Or in your spirit, but you're hurting and we can tell. But my point is, I just recently watched one of his sermons this week and it was exactly on this topic and he was talking and one of the things that he said and repeated was it's not your job to make other people understand the pain you're in, and when you're going through burnout, it really is, because there is some other pain that you're going through and when you associate it and recognize it for the trauma that it really is. And it could be trauma from depression, it could be trauma from a loss of a child, it could be trauma from being out of alignment in so many places that you have no gas left to give to the things you're really called to do, or you're not giving of yourself the mental health, the space you need to be to heal.
Chris Cahill :At the end of a week and and and the reality is, you start feeling almost like a victim, if I'm honest, kind of like they don't get it.
Chris Cahill :They don't know how hard I'm working I work three jobs, I do and you start feeling almost like you want to brag about how hard you work and compare I work harder than you.
Chris Cahill :But that's just a victim mentality, which is a sign of not healing. And there's a deeper, underlying problem and for me I find it typically is comes back to that alignment. You could have a lot of bad things going on in your life, but those things pull you out of alignment Again a divorce, a loss focusing on the wrong things at work, or financial problems. Now you're focused so much on that and that does start to have a pain that it creates and again your focus then starts going towards like white blood cells, start going towards those things, and that does create that PTSD kind of thing. And when you recognize that this isn't just I worked really hard this week and I'm tired there's a difference in that and the depression and stuff that comes with true burnout, as I would say, do you know, for me one of the biggest problems, especially when it came to mental health, was in my last few years in the Navy.
Gary Wise:I was a command master chief, right, so I would get to deal with the most challenging people most of the time, right I would. I would get all the people that are essentially manipulating the healthcare system, the mental health system, in my Navy, and they would be. I remember I was at Naval Base Guam. I'm the base master chief. Part of our job is the force protection of the installation, both on the harbor and on the land side. Right, the majority of our sailors are the master at arms, who are supposed to be the security force, the law enforcement of the navy. Well, guess what they do? They carry freaking guns, right.
Gary Wise:So as soon as you're a sailor who goes to see the doctor for a mental health issue, what's the first thing that doctor's gonna do? You're red tagged, your gun's gone, yeah, right. And you got sailors who are getting red tagged but going to the gym like three times a day, right. And, like I remember I had to say I was telling a guy today at work actually a story, because there's a programmer that was in the Navy where you could get out early to go do an internship. And this guy was getting out of the Navy and was running a request to get out of the Navy early because he wanted to get out and go become a law enforcement officer in the civilian world. I'm like, hey, dude, you haven't carried a gun for us in like a year. How the hell are you going to get out of the Navy and go become a law enforcement officer and want to get out of the Navy six months early? No, I do not recommend this. I do not support this.
Gary Wise:And so when I looked at, when I heard about mental health and all that, those were the people that came to my mind. Right, because I never missed a deployment, I never missed an underway, I never missed any of those things. But the challenging part is understanding the people that are really struggling and the people that are manipulating the system or using those buzzwords in 2025 to get either. So, for example, if one of my students tells me that they're having that they're burnt out, right, my question is OK, are you just are you? Are you really burnt out, or are you just not prioritizing everything right and you want to take care of your business?
Gary Wise:And what's the difference, and I think that's something we've got to synthesize through as people, because, like I told you, I was cooked, like I was cooked, but I never really even allowed myself to even confront it until I thought I was going to die right. Until I thought I was going to die, right, I thought I was having heart attacks. I was going to the emergency room and I thought I was having a heart attack. And then it was through that whole process that I found out that no, it wasn't a heart. And that's when I decided to retire from the military, cause I'm like you know what it's too much, yeah, right.
Chris Cahill :Yeah, well, mental health.
Chris Cahill :And, by the way, it's mental health awareness month, so yeah, so shout out to all my brothers and sisters at arms and everybody who's struggling with with mental health and I'll put myself in that camp, so I know it's a real thing and I'm a licensed Christian counselor as well, so I'm very aware of of of the realities of mental health. So for all those that struggle with that, or people we've lost due to that, Just a true shout out and God bless and hope to see you on the other side of the turn.
Gary Wise:For sure, for sure, no, no, and that's you know, and that's what I'm saying. Like the conversation is so hard to have because you never know if a person is like really going through. When I was really going through it, like, and I was thinking some jacked up stuff, like I remember thinking like I'm gonna have to hurt myself because I am so pissed off at everything, and who do I tell? I can't tell anybody, I'm the freaking master chief, yeah, right, who do I tell then?
Gary Wise:Oh, by the way, I remember we had a cmc when I was in norfolk who took his life and everybody was rocked because he was a, he's a senior leader, right, but with the it's almost like the higher you go, the less support you have, because where do you go? And then it's like, okay, now I'm a civilian, now I'm a retired veteran, now I'm a husband, a father. If I'm struggling, do I tell my wife, but if I don't want her to know that I'm going through something, whether she's got her own thing going on, and these are the complications that we've all got. And I think that I know, as a man who also, you know, I take medication every day, right, I always tell people like this is me on drugs, right See me without the medication.
Gary Wise:Yeah, you don't want to, it's just you medication. I now know that it's not a game, it's not a joke, and I don't need to determine if somebody's authentic or not authentic. I'll just take them at their word and I'll do my very level best. But then I also got to be a leader and call a spade a spade. So if you're not going to meet a timeline and you're going to blame mental something or another on it, then I'm going to let you know that you need to improve that, because in the world that may not always like, you get five hours to take a test because you've got some specialized conditions that your data plan says you get extra time. I'll tell them. There'll be seniors leveraging this time. I'll tell them.
Gary Wise:You know, in college you don't get that extra time bud In life. You need to learn how to work through this before you become an adult. Who, who has to find success in life, because we've all got to bear our cross right, we've all got to work through it. And if you need help, get help, talk to somebody. But also don't just uh, don't, just, don't, just uh, don't, just, don't just. Woe is me and what am I gonna do? You know, um yeah, the, the.
Chris Cahill :The thing is and you mentioned this a few minutes at the beginning of your your talk just now is when you start getting irritable and angry. Oh well, so irritability and anger is a sure sign that there's an inward pain somewhere, that you're, that you're not, that you're ignoring the check engine light is on and you're running and ignoring it. And just cause you put tape over the check engine light doesn't mean it's better. And when you find yourself every day irritable or angry with a certain person, certain group of people, certain whatever, if there's a topic on Facebook and you can't stop arguing about it and I'm guilty myself and I find myself sometimes, and I'll be like for a month I've been mad at every time that guy talks online, I want it, and then I'm like wait a minute, wait a minute.
Gary Wise:Yeah.
Chris Cahill :We're all just stupid ants running around drunk, trying to do the best we can until until we, until we see Jesus. And so when you're mad at somebody else is just a stupid and you're a stupid ant Like. It's like, bro, the fact that you're being mad at them and again I'm talking to myself too it's like there's something unresolved that in your check engine like, and you need to work on yourself. And if you don't work on yourself, you're not able to get. And think about it.
Chris Cahill :I'm a pastor, a counselor and a consultant, so all three of my jobs are me giving and helping other people through situations. And it starts to feel very one-sided because I have four or 500 people a month that I help and who's helping me? And I give, give, give every day. And I come home and sometimes I start getting mad, like why is life feel so one-sided? But then that's what that means is I'm not putting, I'm not taking care of my own mental health. And you know, maybe I need to go spend two hours in the gym every night for a while and put the radio in my ears, lift some weights and just deal with myself, because if you don't deal with yourself, you can't help the world. And, like you said, now, all of a sudden, you can't carry a gun when you're in the military. Bro, you need to go do the work on yourself.
Gary Wise:Yeah, you know, for me and that's very valid for me, one of the biggest problems was people would lie or not be honest, right, especially senior people. That would really just tick me off, because my job is to make sure that it's a fair playing field for everybody, and when I felt like people were being dishonest or misrepresenting positions, I would struggle with that. After dealing with therapy, after going through all my own, my own journey, after learning that I got to balance it all back out my brain chemistry, and then, like you said, relax, let it all go, it's not that serious I've learned, uh, you know, one thing that helped me out a lot is the whole three sides to every story right, this side, that side, and then the truth, and then it's, uh, not to let. This is ultimately one of the main reasons I've retired was to no longer be in a position where I couldn't just walk away from people that were not helping at all.
Gary Wise:My life out right and having the freedom to have boundaries that say you're not helping because you're manipulating or whatever it is, and that's that's. That's very, very crucial. Right, and I teach this to the kids is like you have got to protect your sanity and if you recognize that somebody in your circle is being dishonest or not telling you the truth, it is okay for you to put boundaries. You don't have to have a conflict right. You don't got to be like me and just call them out for it. But you could just start to distance from that person and say I don't want to hang out with you anymore or whatever, because for me that's a trigger. It is especially if you're somebody who I really trust. You know and unfortunately go ahead.
Chris Cahill :Okay, so well from a boundaries perspective. Uh, dude, and I love this topic because I am right now working on all of this and and, for example, on Facebook. I went on Facebook and I said a lot of these people, their comments, irritate me. And then I was like so why do I keep looking at them? And so I went onto Facebook, I think Monday, and I went through and I'd had like 700 friends on my personal. And then I have some other Facebook pages, but anyway, on my personal. I went through and I said you know what? I pulled up everybody from A to Z, about 700. And I said anybody on here that isn't somebody I genuinely care about, I'm deleting. And I only have 140 now, or 150 people on my Facebook as of Monday, and the only people that are on there.
Chris Cahill :It's so funny when I post a post now, instead of hearing comments that I don't really want to hear, then they just irritate me. I'm thinking, wait, there's no boundaries there. I open the door for people to comment and then I get mad about their comments, but I already know that same person is always going to say a comment that irritates me, so why do I keep letting them into my boundary, so I got rid of them and it's funny. So now the few people that are on there, when they do comment they're supportive it's my sister, it's brothers in arms from, almost, I would say, 100 out of 150 are Marines and so it's like wait, these people, these are people I care about. If they call me and said I need help, I drop what I'm doing and drive to go help them. And I got rid of everybody else. So boundaries make a difference and we've talked about this before.
Chris Cahill :There's four questions that I ask everybody, right, and I'm. There's only two that make sense to this topic and you, they're. They're top two. You have to ask yourself, before you do anything or when you're getting burned out or getting stressed, who matters most and what matters most, period in that order. And you know, when I was lifting last night, I'm I'm thinking to myself. I got Pantera in the headphones, I'm lifting some weights, but I'm, you know, I'm thinking to myself. I got Pantera in the headphones, I'm lifting some weights, but I'm doing my two minutes in between sets and I'm just pacing. And I started to think about some of the things that I've been worrying about recently and I said to myself. You know, I'm getting old.
Gary Wise:Yeah.
Chris Cahill :Is it worth spending any of my time that I have left on this earth worrying about any of these things that don't matter? And I said, chris, what matters? And I said let's think about it. And I said Jesus matters first, then my family and then my inner circle, everything outside of that. If it's taking a priority over any one of those three things, it's becoming a distraction from what matters. And I started looking at my life even just last night and I'm looking at all these things that I'm doing and people I'm helping and places I'm going and churches I'm working with and I'm like bro, I feel like I'm maybe.
Chris Cahill :I'm doing that out of ego. I want to be able to say look how busy I am. And at whose detriment? At my own mental health and at my family's detriment, because they don't get a father and a husband. That's not irritable. And I'm like, wait a minute, Like, like I said, these are things I'm working through right now and I was like I need to get rid of all of the things that are keeping me from focusing on Jesus, my mental health and my family and my inner circle. And if you didn't make that cut, like I said earlier, it's not my job to help you understand.
Gary Wise:I just need to move on. Well, and you know what else is I've? Because you know, just like you, I've recognized those, this kinds of cycle. It kind of comes in waves. Right, I will do the exact same thing I will. I will cut down my social media, in particular, because I we leverage it a lot for what we do in our, in our business lives, right, and then, like, I'll load shed a bunch of people because I, like you know, I think I need a break, I don't need all that extra energy. And then I got to go back and build it again because I get all fired up.
Chris Cahill :It's a business. I need my network to be big.
Gary Wise:Yeah, and then you reconnect. Did I let you go or did you let me go?
Gary Wise:We got to figure that out, you know Right right, right, hey, by the way, you still made I'm like I'm in there, I'm in there, but that's just because we're kindred spirits in this regard, right, and I think that, again, a lot of people like us are this way, right, and it's not easy. I was talking to a gentleman earlier today and we were talking about his role in community service and he's talking about how hard of work it is, and I said, well, that's the thing, right, people always say they want to go out and do certain things, like be involved with the community, until you tell them how much work they got to do, right, right, because you can't just stroke a check to make yourself feel better, not. If you want to do certain certain things, you got to get out there and get it done. Right, but I'm out. Took all those kids to bush gardens, right, for a field trip, for an end of year activity.
Gary Wise:What I was at bush gardens, walking out by myself most of the time, because they were having fun. But I did this for them, right, and it's it's because, guess what, it's freaking fun to go somewhere like Busch Gardens with your friends, a lot more fun to go with your family, and so I gave them that opportunity, but on days like that it's exhausting for me because I've got to take the time to go do other things Right. I found that, when it comes to burnout in particular, I found a number. It says 82% of workers in the workforce are at risk of burning out or becoming burnt out. So if I'm an employer that hires people or that manages people, the potential for burnout to affect my workforce should be a concern. Right. Force is probably should be a concern, right? Um, what are some of the best ways you would advise to a leader of human beings to to be be wary, be aware of burnout, potential burnout, and or what to do about it if they start to recognize it in their people yeah.
Chris Cahill :So the key word here is alignment again. But to answer your two-part question, to be aware of it is pretty simple. I mean you just watch somebody's demeanor, if they're irritable, if they're short, if all of a sudden they used to work at this level and now they're working consistently at this level. I mean we all have bad days or weeks. But if it's consistent, at a different level than they're normally able to perform at and this is a relative to yourself, it's not a competition against anybody else but if that person is not operating at the same level, the same speed, the same proficiency as normal, consistently, then there's a problem. And as a leader, you need to take them aside and not do it in a way that makes them feel like you're saying, man, you're not doing good. You need to do it in a way that, man, I care about you and I just want to let you know that. You know I've noticed that it looks like maybe you've got a lot going on in your life. Is there anything I can do? Would it help if you took some time off? What? Where are you at? What can I do? And just be honest behind closed doors about it.
Chris Cahill :And talk is when people start getting burned out. A lot of times there's I say there's four types of people in the workforce. You have finder you've heard me say this, I think finders, binders, grinders and binders. If you're in the wrong lane for too long or too much of your activities are in the wrong lane, you're going to start to burn out because it's not your natural giftedness. So I'm a finder binder because I like to hunt, I like to network.
Chris Cahill :I'm a sales guy, I'm out there, I'm a consultant, but I'm always looking for new people to help. It's part of my job. But if you have me as a grinder, where I'm sitting behind the scenes doing paperwork all day for the clients, it won't be long before I'm miserable. And vice versa. If you take my guys that love to do paperwork and you tell them, hey, you're going to go start networking every day, they're going to be miserable within like two weeks and they're not going to want to come to work. And it's like if you put somebody in their long lane for too long, they're going to be burned out. And so, as a leader, you have to look at that. Am I matching their giftedness with their assignment?
Gary Wise:No, no, I agree. So part of my roles in my past life and even now with the students, is talent management. Right, my job is to best give you opportunities to flourish in the areas you're strong, work on the areas that you're weak and hopefully help you recognize the difference between the two so you can better handle challenges in the future. Right, and I learned from getting burnt, and as I look back on my career, I've gotten burnt out. When I look back on my career, how it happened was my bosses would let me run until I almost couldn't make it anymore and nobody would ever help me.
Gary Wise:So when I became the master chief, I was purposefully holding the reins back on certain guys.
Gary Wise:It's like riding a horse right, you want to let them get their head so they can run, and a jockey's like no, no, no, hold them back, because if you let them just run, they're going to run themselves out. You got to save something for the end of the race, right, and that's that's an experience thing, that's a wisdom thing. That's again talent management learning how to, how to read your people, how to best give opportunities. And my goal was to always share the wealth, distribute the load so that not just one person would feel burnt out, because when they would get burnt out was when they would realize they'd wake up one day that they were doing a lot and everybody else wasn't doing as much, and they would feel like there would be a connection to burnt out and value. Yeah Right, they would feel like what they're doing, what either by themselves or by others, was not being valued, and that lack of value is going to directly correlate to feeling burnt out and feeling like they're frustrated.
Chris Cahill :That's. That's. That was a powerful point. It's funny. You could work the same amount of pace and if you've got somebody encouraging you or giving you an attaboy or patting you on the back, you could do it for so much longer. And if you're being ignored, all of a sudden you start feeling the pain and sometimes just being recognized for the effort from as a leader to to a subordinate is all it takes sometimes just to keep them going Super clutch Right and I would tell people like they would get mad at me when I wouldn't give them opportunities.
Gary Wise:I would say, look, you're doing so great. I do not want you to burn yourself out because and here's what I tell them Trust me, trust the team. You're not losing your position because you know we're always worried about the hierarchy and where am I going to fall out in the overall evaluations or the rankings or your perception of me. But you need to trust. And then what this shows is you trust the organization more because you're letting some of it go, because some of us want to have it all on our back, right, we just can't help it. You know. We just feel like we have to be the one, and as you get older and as you get a little more maturity, you're going to learn to distribute that load so that way you can just help other people by. You're always the one carrying that weight. The other thing I will tell you is now I'm very open with my people when it comes to having good days and bad days, and I started that pie my last I don't know my last few years in the Navy. I really was a lot more open with people. I didn't really recognize it was mental health, but I was thinking like I'm tired or whatnot. But what I learned is, if it's not complaining per se, but when it's legitimate, like a concern, the more that I'm willing to share about my challenges, the more they're willing to share with me about their challenges. If they're struggling or going through it, they'll let me know. And for the kids at my school, they'll just walk in and start bawling right. They'll just tell me like bad day, bad ride in with a parent, whatever it is, and I recognize immediately, like, okay, like you said earlier, what really matters and what's really important, and I will help them to get rid of all the things that are not really required for clarity so that we could focus on the real problems. Right, because you know it's just we get so worried about all the extra things in life that we forget that. You know our life is to be here, to hopefully serve people, to have a good relationship with God, to have a great experience. And what it's not supposed to be is about obsessing, about trying to equal or add up to what society tells us we're supposed to be or like have the best looking uniform or have the best haircut or have the best date to the prom or whatever it is right. And I guess for me I'm really sensitive to the kids because these children nowadays when I was a teenager I don't remember talking about mental health, but these kids nowadays they're commonly talking about mental health, like I've got kids that will miss days of school and say they're taking mental health days, yeah Right, and they're not kidding, yeah, it's not a game. And so as they get older and get into the workforce, my concern for them is that they've got to learn that if you miss too many days for mental health days, you might lose your job, bud, because guess what they're hiring you to do your job. Part of your job is you've got to be a functioning team player, right? How can you? Is there a way to differentiate?
Gary Wise:Again, for me, burnout for me is like an indicator, right? I don't know that. Burnout for me equals like that deep hole where somebody just does not want to get out of bed. And I'll I've asked my kids that before in school. I've said has anyone ever had somebody in their family that was so sad that they did not want to get out of bed? They were just crying and and the amount of hands that went up in the air was sobering. Right, like just no, it's true. Yeah, because you know mom, dad, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, somebody passes away, somebody gets hurt, somebody gets broken up with, whatever, and it's. I asked them what do you do for those people when they're in those moments, to help them, when they're that sad, and because for me that's different than being burnt out, right.
Chris Cahill :Yeah, that's really almost a different topic in a way. I mean, yeah, there's overlap, right, so those mental health and depression and so forth can definitely make all the other things seem that much heavier. And when you're carrying what feels like more weight, obviously it can feel like burnout.
Gary Wise:But really those are almost two different things, you know they really are, and the reason why I bring it up is because burnout, for me, is what's the beginning stages of somebody possibly going down a road that, if they don't recognize it, address it. Like you said earlier, look at what's caused them to feel burnt out. What's their why? Why are they doing the thing? What is it that got them upset? Why are they frustrated the thing? What is it that got them upset? Why are they frustrated?
Gary Wise:If they don't, it might cascade into other things, and then you got to start to peel them off a layer at a time, right, and and I think it's important that parents understand that, if your kid uses the words like burnt out, that's an opportunity for a conversation in my mind, right? Oh yeah, if my student says says but I'm burnt out, master Chief, I'd be like okay, what does that mean, though? Like what's going on? Because if you're going to tell me you're burnt out, then you're going to give me more information, because I care, I care about you, I care that you're okay, and I'm worried now because I don't want you to be burnt out. I want you to be lit up, want you to be lit up, right, I want you to be a cause. Burnt out means you're burnt candles on both ends is burnt out, right? I want you to be a light in the dark. I want you to be excited about tomorrow. So what can? What's going on? And then you got to get that. You got that's a. That's a thing you got to listen for and let it give you more information, right.
Chris Cahill :Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely and and and and and in full transparency. For example and this is probably how he ended up as a licensed counselor Um, I had a parent commit suicide. Um, I had two Marines that I was roommates with uh commit suicide. Um, somebody I served with as soon as we got out committed suicide. And then my college roommate committed suicide every one of them by gun, and I was present for some of it not at the moment, but saw it and so now I also carry that, which is a weight in itself, and my family, at least my mom's side of the family struggles with pretty severe bipolar.
Chris Cahill :I inherited, so I'm bipolar, which means I can be manic for three months and be on top of the world and not sleep and do everything, and then I can have three months where I completely feel what we're saying would be burned out. But it's a mental health thing. It's much deeper than just exhaustion, right? Oh yeah, and you know I've been in dark, dark places, like you were referring to earlier, myself and my. My daughter inherited the same gene and has had one of the toughest, toughest lives she's been through. She was, she had been through more by the time she was a freshman in high school than many adults at 50 and 60 that I counseled and went through a lot of dark times and, by the grace of God, was able to come out so much stronger for it and learned how to manage not get rid of, but manage the mental health struggles that she inherited. And I think that's you know, when you, when you struggle with mental health, you become a counselor because you spend so much time working on it that you get good at it and you learn it and then you spot it in other people. But yeah, like you said, you'd be surprised how many people raise their hand and they're like yeah, it's real.
Chris Cahill :And like COVID, for example, I actually had a few months where I had to check out of everything and actually told my wife. I said, if this goes any further, I need you to baker, act me because my, I can't. I mentally can't handle this because I am a networker. So I'm energized by being around people. That's how I get juice. And so by having to spend so many days laying on the couch watching uh, what was the? The wyoming Show, everybody, yellowstone, binge watching Yellowstone on for months on end, it's like it started to be like Groundhog Day. I wake up, I go to the couch and I put on Yellowstone until I go to bed at midnight and I start over.
Chris Cahill :But that mental health would just. It just started deteriorating because I wasn't getting, I wasn't in my lane, where I need to be out socializing, where I get energy and juice, and my mental health got so bad that I was just pacing around. I was talking to myself and I told my wife I'm like in a day or two and I seriously want you to bake her at me because I can't, I can't do this. And so COVID and my daughter was with me during that same time and struggling just the same way, and and so it's real, it's a very real thing, and that had nothing to do with working too hard, but you could call it burnout. I mean, I felt like the weight of the world was too much and all I was doing was watching Yellowstone on repeat.
Gary Wise:No, no, I get it, I do. And you were not the only. A lot of people, especially during that period of time, really reawakened or reopened certain thoughts that were problematic for them, and I think throughout the world, especially in the United States of America, that was definitely brought back to conversation, right. So now let's move it a step forward. What can a person do for themselves if they're starting to feel like you know what I'm struggling, I'm burnt out? I'll go first. Right, here's what I do, gary Wise.
Gary Wise:Number one I try to relax. I try to, like you said, put it under perspective. I try to remember rebalance as to why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. What is it about the things that I'm doing that make me happy and bring me value? And I try to.
Gary Wise:I try to isolate things that are frustrating me or causing me to feel burnt out, and either either I'll get rid of them or I'll talk about them. And I will go to my wife and talk about those things, right, even though it scares me, because I don't want to be made to feel like I'm not, like I'm doing too much. But she knows me better than I know myself. But she's going to be honest, right, she's not going to lie to me. But I will prepare for that conversation by saying these are the things that I'm almost requesting permission to not do anymore, and can you grant me that permission please? And she'll say, yes, because I love you, you can't do those things anymore. And there you go, and then I will sleep. I'll get some good sleep, then I'll move my body, I'll get some energy, I'll get some dopamine flowing and I'll just here's my other thing I get back on that horse and I ride, right, you cannot.
Gary Wise:It's like running. Before I start to run, I don't want to run, right, I don't. I never wake up wanting to run. I'm five foot six. I don't want to run, but when I start running, I enjoy running, I don't mind running, and so you have to make yourself, discipline yourself a little bit to go and to to get out of there.
Gary Wise:So that's my process, right? I'll recognize that I'm going through something. I'm struggling. I will. I will refocus my priorities. I'll balance out the things that I know really matter. I will isolate the things that I think are really causing me the most problems. I'll talk about them with my wife or the people that I need to resolve them with, if it's a person or if it's a relationship, if it's a business thing. I'll have that tough conversation, I'll get it done, and then I'll get some good rest, I'll get some good food, I'll get some good workout, some PT, and I'll one day at a time Because you know, I know what was that song? Time Doesn't Kenny G? Or what was that Michael Bolton song? What was that song? I don't listen to Michael.
Chris Cahill :Bolton brother.
Gary Wise:Time, love and Tenderness or something like that right, and it's about time heals everything Right, like sometimes you just got to not be so worried about it and kind of get past it. And one of the things that my pastor talked about was, when you're going through something, name that, name the emotion, recognize the emotion Is it valid, is it not valid? And then parcel it and then and then, but deal with it right. So that's what I do. Do you have a process in your life when you start to recognize that you're starting to get underwater or under in a space where you're sluggish, that you'll activate and you'll do something to best defend yourself?
Chris Cahill :absolutely, absolutely. And it takes you guys, it takes years of being with yourself to learn what works for yourself. Right, I'm a lot better at it now that I would have been 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and and it sure helps to have a good spouse that that knows you well, it knows you're up and you're down and can call you on it, and I love what you said. I'm going to use that. Actually, I, I, you know, I want permission to you know, that's a really good thing and that kind of goes in line with what I guess my answer to your question. So let me start with with I don't want to say they're not important, but I'm going to call them, for lack of better word, more superficial, and then I'm going to tell you something that's, I think, more significant, but but they're both, they're both a part of the ingredients.
Chris Cahill :So, in a more superficial level, and it's probably not the right word, but you know, obviously, prayer, I mean, I'm a prayerful person, anyway, I pray a lot, but having that real kind of prayer where you just it's be still and know that he is God, rather than hey, lord, here's me again. Thank you for salvation. Here's my, my, my, my requests. Here's my thoughts, here's my thanks. But I mean real, just be still. Yeah, just sit, still and pray, or don't talk, just listen, or just be, just be. And so those are the short-term things that I do, that are a little bit more superficial, the prayer-type things.
Gary Wise:Not superficial, bro spiritual.
Chris Cahill :Well, yeah, like I said, superficial is not the right word because they're they're very essential powerful man. Those are powerful, they are. And I remember before I was like I, I sold out love christ christian and I was kind of just a check the box church goer kind of christian and you know, when people would talk about spiritual I kind of chalked it up like yeah, I, I get it spiritual, but when you really get it.
Chris Cahill :I mean, like I said, that was my first answer that's where it starts. That's where it starts Now, from beyond that, I have a spiritual mentor, combat Ranger. He's maybe five, ten years older than I am, but God brought us together and he rides motorcycles and we ride together. So there's another one. God brought us together and he rides motorcycles and we ride together. So there's another one.
Chris Cahill :One of my favorite things to do at midnight is put the headphones in, put on music that really kind of gets to me. Sometimes it's worship music, sometimes it's metal, depending on where I'm at and I will just ride. I will ride through the national forest for two hours and I'll end up at Daytona, sit on the beach and just be still with God and drive home at 4 am and I had three or four hours of wind therapy, just talking to God, just being still with my thoughts, ended up with some time at the beach, because water has some kind of weird soothing effect, and then so that's if the, if the simple prayer wasn't still not kind of doing it. That's what I'll do and that's the next thing. But now here's the. Here's the third one, and this is part of what I'm working on right now. He finally said to me. He said, chris, he said and he's right. He said it's your ego that keeps you going. You think if you're not there to help somebody, they can't figure it out. And he said I hate to tell you this, if you died tomorrow, they'd still find a way to keep going. So stop thinking that you have to be there to solve everybody's problems. And he said now, when you take that weight off of your back and you realize the only thing that matters again is Jesus and your family, you don't have to give so much. And he said so here's what I'm going to tell you to do, and I'm not doing a great job at it, but I'm trying. He said ghost everybody for a year. That's not part of that inner circle, meaning God, family, inner circle. Ghost them and work on yourself. And he said to work on yourself, you've got to have your.
Chris Cahill :Your mental health is encompassing your spiritual health, your physical health, your relational health with the people in that inner circle and your financial health. And if any one of those four things is wrong, your mental health is going to start to kick in the check engine light. One of those four things is wrong. Your mental health is going to start to kick in the check engine light. And he said so. He said to me how good is your spiritual life? I said well, I'm right now annoyed with a lot of things at church. He says, okay, so let's put that down. How good is your physical health? I said I quit going for a while. He said okay, tell me about your relational health? Well, I'm irrit good, he said okay.
Chris Cahill :So three out of four things. You need to have good mental health. Especially as somebody with bipolar, you know better. You're not doing three out of the four things, so you're getting a 25% grade out of 100. So how well are you doing?
Chris Cahill :And he said I need you to ghost yourself. And I tried, of course. Then I went, turned around and wrote a book and he's like no, no, no, stop, stop writing, stop publishing, stop starting creating new workshops to lead, stop doing networking. That's unessential. And that doesn't mean be lazy, be irresponsible, don't go to work, don't talk to people and be cold. It just means build those boundaries and then hold, make yourself accountable to not break those boundaries to the best of your ability. And that's what he meant by ghost. And again, I wrote a book, I went and started a workshop, but I'm working, I'm working on it, but he's right, and so right now I am in month two of a one year ghost and so that's why I got rid of everybody on social media, my phone.
Chris Cahill :I'm in the process of deleting anybody again that doesn't make that inner circle or have work relations that I need um, spiritually. I'm trying to force myself to make sure I don't skip any of my daily parts of my prayer, and I had different ones throughout the day and sometimes I'll, like I'll get distracted and work through it and it's like no, no, no, no, no, no, you got no and so and so then. So then now my, my wife's in the position of no, she's not my, she's not my accountability partner as much Like. She's not like cracking a whip and saying do it, but she's encouraging me. You know, when I do, when I do part of it right, She'll say to me hey, I saw that you did this, or good job on that, or I'm happy you did that, and so it's not so much as negative reinforcement as much as it is positive reinforcement. Um, so I would say I would say prayer.
Chris Cahill :Personal hobby for me it's motorcycle and that includes other things. And then if you're really are at that point where you need, you need to read, readjust ghost goes for 30 days, ghost for 90 days. I'm doing a one-year ghost, so, um, and a lot of people all of a sudden that I used to call on the way to work, on the way home to work, or I'd answer every text that they had. No, I've got all these texts that are unanswered and I'm, I'm, I was like, if there's a text I better answer, like in five minutes, or I feel like a jerk. And now I've got texts all over my phone and guess what? Life didn't end.
Gary Wise:Yeah, well, you know, and I think the other thing is just, I think everything you said I agree with and I understand. I'm just grateful that you're in a place where you can do those things and still be able to take care of your family and not be able and not have to affect other things. And then I'm just grateful that you're answering my text right, because I want to bring value. You know I want to bring value and hopefully these kinds of things help me as well. Right, the opportunity to talk with somebody that understands, that can relate, that lets me know that there's connection out there and I know that if I was to legit call you up like I need some help, you'd come help me and I hope you know I would do the same for you. Right, absolutely. But I also respect that we've got families and we've got lives and all that other stuff, and so I same thing with Jeremy. Right, we've all got wives and kids and the older you get, that's the heart it's. It becomes something else you got to think about. You know, as we close up today a big conversation, I believe the number is 988. If somebody ever needed help, you could call it, you can text it. You could just hit 988 and somebody will pick up the phone or text you back and they'll come talk to you. And that's if you don't, if you really feel like you don't have anyone else to reach out to, I've had.
Gary Wise:You know, I've dealt with so many things throughout my career as to somebody hurting themselves, people unfortunately making bad choices.
Gary Wise:I know how fast it can take a turn for people and I just want to make sure that we advertise that resource, because I know that sometimes even hearing conversations like this can trigger people.
Gary Wise:I don't want them to be triggered, but I also want them to be strong, right and to recognize that they've got wherever they are in this life through strength and through perseverance and through toughness, and that life is never going to be just perfect.
Gary Wise:But nor should you want it to be right, like you should want life to be something that you feel pride in having accomplished certain things. Um, I I was telling somebody earlier today I love when I get to relax, like on the couch my wife will watch a movie, knowing that I had a great day and we've got a lot of stuff done and tomorrow's going to be a good day too, but for now we going to just chill and watch a cool movie and relax, and that's okay, right, because there's there's plenty of time to do the things, and so I think people should look forward to doing things, but also look for time to decompress with your people and find the space in your life to find that balance and be a be be at peace, right, yeah you've got to be, you've got to learn it.
Chris Cahill :it For workaholics or people that love to pour into other people. A hard one to learn is being present, being in the now. And you've got to be present If you're watching that movie, thinking about the 10 emails you have to do, or the podcast you have to prepare for, or the chapter you have to write, or the sales pitch you have to rehearse, or whatever.
Chris Cahill :If you're not being present, you lost the rejuvenation of that whole period, that two-hour period or whatever, and part of the relational connection that just comes from just relaxing with your spouse or whatever. And so then, when you do move on to the next thing, you never really got the rest.
Gary Wise:You were already in the next thing, and so when you get to it, yeah, of course you're going to start getting burned out because you never gave yourself that reprieve. Yeah, you know, for me, when it comes to that space in particular, I will purposely put my phone in another room, that's right, like, like, I'm going to play fortnight right, because fortnight's one of my favorite secret fun things. Right, I'll play fortnight with my kids, or I'll play fort by myself. I will be a nobody running around this whole world shooting at rabbits and hot dogs or whatever. Right, and it's, I will put the phone in the other room and I won't worry about it. Right, I will check LinkedIn later. I will check Facebook later. I will check the YouTube channel later, whatever it is, and I'll decompressress. Or, if my wife and I I'll be, if we've got something we both enjoy watching together, right, that's always a fun thing, because that's one of I mean, that's one of our favorite things to do is to be in the same room enjoying something like television show, because our generation television was a thing, but there's very few things nowadays that we watch, that we watch together, right, and so it's. It's like a movie comes out and we watched the king of kings the other night. That was a family movie night, right, and that was pretty cool, right. And I tell my kids, like it's mandatory fun, bro, get out here, come hang out.
Gary Wise:All right, man, I think we're going to wrap up tonight's podcast. It was a little heavier than I thought it was going to be, but you know what it's because we're both heavy dudes, man. We can bring the energy, but we can also get deep and we're both always dealing with you know, the cadets asked me one time because I can turn on the energy real quick. They're like Mass Chief, are you mad at everybody? So I'm not mad at nobody. Why would you guys think that? Cause you're like, oh, you're yelling at everything. I'm like the incredible Hulk dude. I'm always angry, like what? But but no, we, just we. We have that energy and I really appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing tonight with the people and I I really hope that anybody that watches this uh, get some value from a brother.
Chris Cahill :Yeah, absolutely. And being mental health. Uh, you know, awareness month. Hopefully, when you post this, you know you mentioned that or hashtag that or whatever it works, cause I would hope you know there are other men or leaders out there that maybe don't have an outlet or a place where they can talk to people.
Chris Cahill :I think we've been pretty transparent, pretty vulnerable tonight. We you know, we didn't sugarcoat it and some not everybody has a platform where they can maybe share that or a relationship or a friend or something where they can be like that. My hope would be, if anybody watches this and they have and they're like man, I am burned out or I am stressed or I am in a dark place or mental health, I'm struggling, any of these things my hope would be that you know they'd message you, they would DM you or me, but I know it's your, it's your channel, so they got a direct line of access to you. I hope they do. And even if one person does and that builds a new relationship and it pours into their life, that's awesome, right, and and hopefully that hopefully you can have that impact you know, 100, and I do think the other piece of it all is, uh, you know, having that faith that you're, none of us are in it alone.
Gary Wise:You know, I got that third man in the fire. I got that hand coming through the water to grab me up out of there. Right, you, just you have. We're. Unfortunately, the devil wants us to feel alone and isolated, and that's part of the strategy. Right, I'm going to cut you off of the rest of the herd so you feel like you're not the one. But here's the thing we both know that we've got a Lord and Savior who's going to leave the 99 to come get me right, and that's something that I think gives all of us power. And so if they do reach out, happy to help, right, happy to help.
Chris Cahill :You know, adam and God walked in the garden right and then Adam's like where are you, lord? And the thing is God wasn't anywhere. But sometimes we take our eyes off of him and you know, when you're going through the struggles, when you're going through the wilderness, when you're going through the jungle, man, god's there and I think he's working through people like you, hopefully through me, and hopefully people that see this maybe could come through you. But I hope everybody knows that God loves them and God's there for you.
Gary Wise:And I hope that they whoever watches this leads their people with similar energy. Right leads their people with similar energy.
Gary Wise:Right, give them the grace, but also hold them accountable and hold them to the standard, because I think that everybody we don't want to be lied to, right, but also be there for me when I really need you, so I can be there for you. All right, man, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap this thing up, we're gonna call it a night and then we're gonna get out of here. Okay, awesome, I appreciate you, bro. I'll. I was born for this.
Chris Cahill :I believe, I believe we can write a story.
