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Words from the Wise
Join Words from the Wise with Gary Wise, a retired Navy Command Master Chief, for authentic leadership insights forged in real-world experience. Through engaging discussions and actionable strategies, Gary empowers you to master emotional intelligence, build resilient teams, and unlock your full potential. Tune in for practical advice on delegation, conflict management, and inspiring others, drawn from his over 28 years of service and ongoing leader mentorship headquartered now in Ocala, Florida.
Words from the Wise
Row Baby Row: Military Veterans Tackle Today's Workplace Culture
What happens when three military veterans with over 75 years of combined experience tackle one of today's most polarizing topics? In this explosive conversation, Gary Wise, Chris Cahill, and Enrique flip the script on DEI, reframing it as an IED—Inclusion, Equity, Diversity—examining how these concepts can become landmines when mishandled.
These battle-tested leaders cut through the noise with practical wisdom that transcends political divides. "If you summarize everything we've said, it goes back to where we started—it's merit-based," says Chris, capturing the essence of their straight-shooting approach. The veterans share raw, unfiltered perspectives from decades of leadership in environments where excellence wasn't optional and lives depended on performance.
Rather than dwelling on divisive aspects, they offer a powerful alternative framework: replace Inclusion, Equity, and Diversity with Opportunity, Ability, and Unity. As Gary explains, "I want everybody on my team to know they have a fair opportunity based on their abilities to accomplish whatever is being asked of them." This shift in perspective puts accountability back in focus while acknowledging genuine leadership responsibilities.
Whether you're leading a military unit, a corporate team, or a community organization, you'll find actionable insights on creating high-performing teams where standards remain high while everyone gets what they need to succeed. Discover why these veterans believe that with clear communication, proper support, and unwavering standards, we can move beyond divisive rhetoric toward genuine team excellence.
And I know I was born for this. I know I was born for this. Don't care for the critics. My world and life is except for us that they can't stop. They just don't get it. I think they forget I'm not done till I'm on top. I know I was born for this. I know I was born for this. I believe.
Gary Wise :I believe we can write a story. All right, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, how you doing? It's Gary Wise here. Wise Leadership Solutions Words from the wise. Tonight we are streaming live on multiple channels we're on LinkedIn, we're on YouTube and, of course, we'll share all that later as well. We got a big topic tonight. A lot of people are interested in this. Before I get to all that, let me introduce the co-host that I brought tonight because I got guests. I got, as usual, my buddy, Chris Cahill, United States Marine Corps veteran and running his own financial firm right now. Chris, how you doing, brother Doing?
Chris Cahill :well brother. How you doing.
Gary Wise :I am doing great man. And then let me introduce a member of my advisory board. Enrique is currently. He runs the Developing the Leader Within podcast. He's got Triad Leadership Solutions down in Central Florida. Mr Enrique, how are you, brother?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Outstanding Hoorah, hoorah.
Gary Wise :All right, all right, so, and Jeremy is running a little bit late, but if he jumps on board we will dial him in, but green means go and it is go time. Gentlemen, happy to be here, all right, so, uh, you know, we talked. I talked about this a little bit with enrique before, and chris and I've spoken about this before as well, and and that is this topic, and for anybody that's out there, if you jump online, please send us comments. I'll see those pop in the little box on the right hand side, especially if you have any questions for this topic. I remember when Chris first brought this up, he said hey, gary man, what do you think if we talk about DEI? And my immediate reaction was like trauma. No, ah right, because look, as a person who did 25 years in the United States Navy, trust me, there is a lot we could talk about, from what I've seen on the ships to what I've seen in other countries when I went around the world, to what I've seen just in my own family coming up to, and then, of course to now on the other side of my career, seeing what I've seen just my own family coming up to, and then, of course to now on the other side of my career, seeing what I'm seeing in the school system, right, and working with the kids. So I got a lot of conversation for it.
Gary Wise :But it kind of feels like in our society today it's a grenade that people are just looking to blow up on you Right, and and I think this is where leaders have got to step into that gap, right, they've got to step into the gap and say, look, dude, not everything's going to be, uh, an out of control thing. We can, we can all have a good conversation. And so I he brought this up about what was it? Two months ago, chris? He brought this up so I'm thinking about it. And I'm thinking about it because that's what I do, man. I think about it all and I'm like, how can I reverse this conversation to where we can have it but not have people all of a sudden just think we're going to just blow up and I reverse the order and then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, shoot, that stands for IED. I'm like, well, that makes a lot of sense.
Chris Cahill :Now you're starting to make sense.
Gary Wise :That makes a lot of sense, because what the heck was an IED? An IED is a man-made device that's meant to bring harm right, and it was not meant to be something that was going to be good. And I was like, okay, well for a leader. Unfortunately, this conversation can feel like it's something that's going to cut you. I remember telling my captain, right and I've been watching the news with that former CEO from the Reagan who just lost a major opportunity at the three-star level because of some stuff that goes into this conversation right and I remember telling my captain, like, boss, I don't know that we can get behind this thing and we might get into some of those conversations tonight, because I'm trying to protect him from getting into hot water, right, like just being honest, it can get out of the box. And now what are we going to do? And so, as I'm watching the news play out, I'm thinking, ok, it's a relevant conversation to have, we'll change it around and we'll look at it from the ied perspective and away. We go.
Gary Wise :Sound good to you guys I'll say, yeah, sounds, sounds, sounds, perfect brother awesome man and I said a couple prayers, I did a few hard krishnas. I'm just because, look, I'm off of the conversation, but I'm a straight shooter, just like I know y'all are, and I think that's what the listeners at least I know, the people that I'm connected with If I don't stand for my business, they can be like Gary, what the hell we know different bro, like you got to stand on that. So, okay, let's open it up first with inclusiveness right, or inclusion right. Why is inclusion or inclusiveness, or this whole idea about having somebody be included first of all? Why is this, even in this conversation, right? And secondly, is it a hot button topic?
Chris Cahill :who wants to go first?
Chris Cahill :I, I definitely want to take it first, and and I think I even told you I think I told you two months ago that um think I mentioned the IED concept too back then and I got to.
Chris Cahill :Let me just start by saying this I'm very opinionated on this topic, but I want to say that I have listened to a lot of good arguments from all perspectives and I think, when you get past the apologetic and the debate side of it, we're all actually saying and looking for the same thing, and I think that the pendulum can swing too far to the left or right and it feels like an argument.
Chris Cahill :But underneath, maybe when you actually get back to defining what we're trying to accomplish, I think we're all seeking for a better world and that comes back, I think, to your inclusiveness, which is unity, and it really is and I know we'll get into this a merit-based concept, and inclusiveness should include anybody, regardless of skin color, regardless of social economic status, regardless, but it should be able to bring unity to differences. And if I'm building a team in my business, I'd rather have 10 different perspectives one that's good at sales, one that's good at leadership, one that's good at operations and have inclusiveness of all differences, regardless of skin color, but based on the fact that we all have different strengths and I think, at the end of this, we just want a place where everything is fair and equitable, which is where we're leading to, and when you start, maybe, with inclusiveness, I think maybe you're starting down a better path than starting with diversity, because immediately with that, you're creating division rather than unity.
Gary Wise :Okay, so I hear you and I'm tracking and I agree with where you're going and I think how we talk about it is how we're going to get there. What do you got to say, enrique?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Yeah, so when you talk about inclusiveness, which one of us asked to be here on earth, right, none of us. But we're included, right? Well, once you're born, you're in it, and so there are elements of life that you don't have to ask to be included to be included, but we know that as you develop these different places, right, and I'm kind of remembering the skiff I was a senior enlisted leader. Yeah, I wasn't getting in the skiff. Yeah, I wasn't getting in the skiff. So there are things in life that, although you may be in proximity by in terms of how we feel as humans, there are elements of life that are not inclusive for a reason. Right, and we have to keep that in mind when we are pursuing inclusion. But I agree that if we start this way first, it will cut through a lot of the rhetoric and a lot of the feelings that come when you try to address this from a diversity standpoint.
Gary Wise :So for me, when I hear both of you talking look, I've got a lot of feelings about this Feelings matter. Feelings are the problem, right? Because, unfortunately, when you try to remove the word feeling from this conversation as leaders, in my mind it sounds good, but the best leaders actually care and they're going to feel some type of way. Care and they're going to feel some type of way. Now, that's one of my major leadership challenges is my. I'm a more of an empathy person than a sympathy person, so I don't always feel bad for you, right, like. So I think.
Gary Wise :For me, the context of the situation is going to matter, right? What is the team? What are we doing? And I'm going to have different levels of grace, probably for different kinds of people, causing possible challenges when it comes to feeling included or not feeling included, if that makes sense, right? If I've got a bunch of kids at the playground playing with my 10-year-old, my 11-year-old and one of the kids is at the party and they're not feeling like they're included, I'm going to do what I can to help get him roped in, because I went out of my way to invite that parent to have their child come over and spend time. I don't want that child to feel like they're not a part of something. Does that make sense? So at that level, I'm going to do something On the reverse.
Gary Wise :If I'm in a meeting of senior leaders, right, and we're all asked to be here, we all got hired, we all got screened, we all applied for the program and we are all in the dang room. Brother, I should not have to freaking beg you to get involved in health Row, baby row, row dog. If you got some feelings that you don't want to communicate, then that's a professional problem. You got to be able to communicate, because if you can't communicate that, for me that's a problem, because we're professionals and we're all here to communicate and I've, I've, I've had to see all of those, and so it just depends upon, for me, the context, and for today's conversation I would like to try to keep it on the context of.
Gary Wise :I'm a leader with a team of people that have all asked to be on my team for whatever their reason, whether it was because they asked to serve their country, whether it was because they asked to come work at my firm and get advice from me and my organization, or to do business, or whether it was they want to contribute in my society by being a part of my group or my school activity group, whatever it is, either way, as a leader in this leadership conversation, the people are in the room for a reason. Right, let's just start there, because I think, if we get into the whole world of, how do we invite everyone to want to come out and play? Well, there's a whole lot of reasons why people are not inspired and unfortunately, I feel like they might be taking some of these letters and making it be a lame duck or like an excuse instead of being the real reason. What's going on? Does that make sense?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Absolutely.
Gary Wise :And I don't want to chase our tail absolutely and I don't want to chase our tail. So if you're a leader and you've got a, a group of people on your team and you got from the left being novice, right and from the right being experienced and there are, they are all in the room. They all have and that's what you said access. I agree. Look, I'm five foot six bro. Some stuff I don't have access to. If I was six foot two, I'd have access. It'd be different, right? So Gary Wise has to go get a ladder and bring a ladder with me to be able to get my butt up there. And I've got to know that and come prepared to make sure I'm going to cross that gap.
Chris Cahill :Go ahead, chris, prepared to make sure I'm going to cross that gap. Go ahead, chris. Well, perfect, perfect analogy. The problem when this gets taken too far is now you're expecting me to carry your ladder for you, to help you get up there, and if that's your challenge and you're expected to take the hill, then you need to learn how to overcome your challenge.
Chris Cahill :Some people have OCD or ADHD or can't read or they're blind. Well then get glasses. But if you come to work and you say, well, listen, the reason I missed the enemy 10 shots and I'm out of bullets, it's because I can't see something. Something's wrong here. So then you need to learn how to zero your weapon, you need to get your eyes checked, something. But I can't have people dying on my left and right because you never got your eyes checked, like you got to figure out how to get yourself up.
Chris Cahill :And that's where I think this goes too far sometimes is it starts to be hey, we're all included. And so therefore, you know, participation trophy, everybody wins, and that's not the case. There are different levels of merit and that doesn't mean, as leaders, we don't pick everybody up, but each person that has their own challenge has to overcome that challenge, you know, and we can get into that with the different test scores and all the things, but the reality is you, if you need a ladder, then you bring a ladder, but don't make it my responsibility to carry your ladder.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Yeah, there's. There's a level of self-awareness that you have to have in this whole scenario, right? You acknowledging that, hey, I'm five foot something. That's a fact. It's not going to change unless I get those three inch sneakers. Right, it's not going to change At that point. If I want to continue to be included and bring some benefit to this group that I'm part of, then I will consider the elements that I need in order to not be a drag on the team but be an asset, right, and that's one of those areas that are not often addressed on a personal level. But now you're talking about a leader's in charge of this. As a leader, I have to be aware also that you may not be aware, and so now I've got to bring you to the point where you are okay with embracing the fact that there are some limitations that you have to overcome.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :And here I am doing my leadership.
Gary Wise :I'm with you, bro. And what did they call that back in the day? Intrusive leadership. Remember that. Remember how much trouble everybody gave us. Oh, I don't want you to know that business about me. That's my personal life. No, bro, if you're not paying your bills, if you're not taking care of your family, if you're not taking care of your responsibilities, then everything that Chris just said might also come to fruition, because you're not able to function and fight because you're not good. Right? Hold on. What's our comment say? We also can't show favor regarding merit and put the wrong people in key positions. We also can't show favor regarding merit and put the wrong people in key positions. I appreciate that comment, mr Whiteside. I'm going to hit that here.
Chris Cahill :We're going to talk about that there's a lot to say there. That's a good point. That's a good point.
Gary Wise :I just think that, as a leader, you have a response Again. I've got the left and the right parameters. I've got the novice to the experience. I've got to do my best to meet them where they're at, understanding what I need from them to do their play, their position. How can I best support them to get where they're going to go?
Gary Wise :But a couple of basic things for me, and it always is the same be on time, be in the correct uniform to do the job and have a positive mental attitude that wants you to be a contributor. And if at any point you've got a problem where you don't want to be on this team anymore, you don't want to contribute, you feel like you're not being included, then I believe, at least for adults right Now I could have a different conversation. For children I could. For children I could have a different conversation and they'll get a pass from me.
Gary Wise :But for adults, especially professionals, you got to communicate, bro, you got to use your words right, and then in the chief's mess, we have this saying uh, don't ever be afraid to ask for help. We expect you to ask for help, but, on the inverse, we expect you to have done everything in your power first to get the job done, because we all got jobs to do, we're all busy. You can't be calling everybody asking for help all the time and you're not really trying. You're dang this to do the job right, okay, so let's unpack mr whiteside's comment here. We also can't show favor regarding merit and put the people wrong, people in key positions. I guess my first question is what do you think he means by show favor regarding merit?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :yeah, I think he's talking about unmerited favor. Okay, yeah, something that what's an?
Gary Wise :example of somebody who's getting unmerited favor. What do you think? Just you think it's a connection like. So I'm hanging out with the guy?
Chris Cahill :No, I'll give you an example. If you look, if you look at the Princeton study that they did on the schools Right, and while they didn't officially put it on paper, princeton was able to do some studies on that and they actually had what they called the SAT advantage and if you were white you were at a baseline. If you were Asian, they actually deducted 50 points off of your scores when they were figuring out who would get accepted and who would get different scholarship.
Gary Wise :Just hating on Asians, huh, just hating on them.
Chris Cahill :And if you were Hispanic, they gave you like 200 points, and if you were Black, they gave you 250 points. Well, the argument was well, if you came from different socioeconomic backgrounds, you had more access to tutors and stuff like that. But that's back to me carrying your ladder. I'm not going to say that certain people that grew up in different societies or different cities or groups or whatever don't necessarily have more advantage. But now you're penalizing me just because I had good parents or a good situation. No, I'm sorry.
Chris Cahill :Meritorious says if I scored this and the cutoff was here and you didn't, then I got the scholarship and you didn't, and that's just there. But the same thing happened. It happened at Google and it's happened at corporations. Well, we're going to promote people and say, well, we need to have 15 Hispanic people or 14 women, and it's like well, if 14 women have the scores over the men, then they should absolutely be there, but if they don't have the score, I don't even think this is a conversation, it's simple. Meritorious says whoever has the right score, whatever the parameters are the same thing for meritorious promotion. You go up against two people and they say well, gary, you're only five, six, so we're going to subtract a hundred points. You're not going to get promoted. What Whoever's got the merit gets it. That's pretty simple, and I don't even know how it turns into an argument. I don't even know what there is to argue here.
Gary Wise :I'm going to tell you before I go to Enrique. I'm going to tell you it's because people have agendas and they're trying to funnel people into their agenda because they want to get a movement, and that's my thing. So, for example, short people maybe we got a dog in the fight. We're trying to, we're trying to make a point, but when you lose the, you lose sight of the company or the organization that's trying to be the best. You know who never loses sight of that? Football team, basketball teams, the best person gets the position right.
Gary Wise :Um, yeah, and so mr whiteside's follow-on comments not fully qualified. All right, right, enrique, what you think, man.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Yeah, so you mentioned football and that was the first thing that I got in my mind. Right, you got this linebacker. He's huge, but that joker can probably outrun me, right, it's just one of these things and I can't fit a linebacker position, even if I could outrun him, that's just not going to happen. Right, I'll be plowed and so, as he said, not truly qualified. I might have the heart for it, I might get the work ethic behind it, I just don't have the full qualifications to stand that line. I'm going to get hurt, you know, regardless of my heart. So there are just some things that have a requirement, have qualifications, that they, they must be met. And, and I think what Dwayne is talking about is hey, they put Enrique on the line because you know he might look a certain way, or you know he might dress, you know, snazzy, but ain't going to cut it when the ball is snapped, right?
Chris Cahill :I was going to say, gary, in the military, I was doing some research beforehand and I saw that in the Army Times back in 2021, I think it was, you could look it up but 82nd Airborne they actually did not promote. They had a war-decorated company commander and then they had someone that was from a minority race and they said you know what, we have to have this person to fill this DEI spot. And they've since then actually removed that person and they've done away with that. And they've since then actually removed that person and they've done away with that. But for a period of time you had a war decorated company commander and then someone with no experience leading the 82nd Airborne. And I'm just thinking, especially in the military, when lives are directly on the line, we're paid to win, not to play politics.
Gary Wise :And one thing I want to say about that, because I'm with you, but I think that we as human, at least in this, in this iteration of humans right, because I got my own little theories about humanity right, but I think that we have covered so much ground in our society from 1940 to 2025, right, I mean I, just when I joined the military in 1997, there was no email, there was no internet, at least not to my knowledge. There might have been something in the world, but I never even had cable TV in my house yet at that point, right, like I never had access to that privilege, right, if you will. So when I look at how far and how fast we've come technologically, humanity hasn't kept up, at least not in the United States of America, right. So we're still trying to unwind a bunch of things. And then, unfortunately, like I said earlier, I don't trust everybody always has the right intentions for things, right, and I feel like people will leverage certain agendas to take advantage of things on all different kinds of angles. I tell my students all the time, every one of them got a cell phone, you got a library in your hand, you have access to the world to educate yourself, you don't even need to come to school, to be honest with you. You can learn a whole bunch of stuff just watching YouTube channels all day. What you do with that education now is a different conversation, and our great, great grandparents, our great grandparents, our grandparents, they're not going to understand that conversation because they didn't have that. And oh, by the way, we're going even faster and faster and faster into the future. We're not going backwards, and so I agree with everything that you just said, and we've got to recognize that because the younger generations, they're not having these conversations.
Gary Wise :Just being honest with you, man, I am surrounded by these kids you want to see the most. In my opinion, it's not like how it was when we were in high school anymore. When I was in high school, you had the jocks and the hair rocker dudes with long hair and the skateboard dudes. You had the dudes that were Asian, pacific, islander. You had all these different cliques. If you would, are you going to walk around the cafeteria? Now it is, everybody is everywhere. And it's more about what anime do you like, what kind of music do you like, what kind of whatever, and so these kids are connected on so many different levels. On the inverse. I know that when they come to like the fleet, or when they leave mom and dad's home and go to college, they isolate themselves because they feel like they're alone and all of a sudden, all of the stuff they have for inclusion is on their cell phone and their identity is in their cell phone, and I think that's going to be a problem that they have to work through. And again, us as leaders. I believe we have an obligation to address these things. Hold on, dr Lisa Tisdale's on the line. Let's see what Dr Lisa got to say. I love it, I love this. All right, dr Lisa says.
Gary Wise :I think in the past, things like this, meritoriously, didn't seem to be done that way or done fairly. Don't disagree. For me, lisa, that's the crux of the issue. If it's not fair, no one can trust the process right, no matter what it was, no matter if it was a recognition for an event, no matter if it was a promotion or an evaluation or an opportunity at a contract. If there was something unfair about the process, everyone's going to question the credibility of it, right? And then, like Lisa says so, when the initiative hit, everyone went fully to the other side to try to correct the issue. Just her opinion is what she says. She says we just need people to be fair, but I don't think it will ever truly be fair. So this is how we end up where we are now. And then Mr Whiteside says let's be honest, check our history. We've denied some Americans awards that they earn. Sure, I mean sure. I don't disagree that I'm thinking that there's always going to be somebody, man we could have, should have, would have, we missed an opportunity? Okay, so I do think that, for leaders in particular because this is what I really want to focus on we can have all the other theological conversations or philosophical conversations, or even political conversations, if we will. We got to do all that.
Gary Wise :But as a leader, my job, I believe, is look at the people that are in my box. You're in my box, right? My job is to let you know you're included. How do I do that? Number one, I believe onboarding right, whether it's indoctrination, whether it's welcome to the team, nice to meet you, we're standing up a new thing. Part of that onboarding is and let you know my expectations. I expect you to contribute, I expect you to do your job. I expect you to learn what you're supposed to do you ever? You ever see, you know, I had this. I had this conversation with Jeremy last time.
Gary Wise :We would hire people to come to the job and then they would fail to maintain the qualifications or meet our, our expectations on on glide slope, right? Well, guess what? We as leaders have got to do a good job of documenting that, unfortunately, and telling them hey, you're not meeting our expectations. If you don't keep up, you might have a problem. Okay, and then my experience has been somebody will say, well, so-and-so didn't teach me, or so-and-so didn't show me. What is that person's obligation if they're going to leverage that as a reason as to why they're not performing? What do you think?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Any ideas? Well, that may be a thing, right. That may be a thing right. We all get these immediate supervisors. Everybody gets them. Whether you're in retail, whether you're in the military, you get an immediate supervisor. That's kind of like the person is there, you know, if your immediate supervisor is not doing and fulfilling their role, it is a thing, but it can't be all the thing, right, there's a obligation on my end to say hey, my immediate supervisor was supposed to teach me this here, and this is last week, but the Joker didn't. So what am I going to do to ensure that this week because I'm expected to be at a level that this week I get that? You know, you got to raise the flag sometimes.
Chris Cahill :I think. And Gary, you were in my office a week or two ago and you know where I stand on on standards. I have a very high standard. You let me down twice and you're dead to me. I remove you from my phone and I don't talk to you. You know I am. I'm like that Um and and and.
Chris Cahill :People need to take ownership and if without ownership, at least I feel like I'm babysitting and I don't want you handle kids. You said you give them a free pass. I'm handling adults and if you're working for me, my job is to win, my job is to take the hill and if I'm having to grab you and carry you up the hill and carry your rug, I'll do it once and I'll try to help you. If you do it. A just working and taking ownership on whatever the responsibility was. I'm not going to give you responsibilities that you don't know how to do, but once I give you responsibilities and I've set those clear expectations. If you don't understand them, let me know, we'll work that out. But if you understand them, I'm now going to hold you to that standard and you need to accomplish that. And I just think it still comes back down to yeah, if you have challenges, carry your own ladder. You've got to figure out what they are and there's just no reason to soften the system.
Chris Cahill :For a grown adult and I'll conclude this thought with this I've been in sales and entrepreneurship for almost 30 years and so I've only ever got paid what I hunt. I've never got a paycheck, so I just get paid what I hunt, and so that's completely meritorious. If I fall down one week and I don't hunt, I starve and my family pays. And so when I work with other people that are like well, I got a paycheck on Friday and I was kind of lazy and I kind of came in late that doesn't even compute in my world, like you're dead to me. And when I, when I was, when I was training in Baltimore, we would hire 25 to 50 people every three months and we would give them extremely high standards, and then every two weeks, roughly the bottom five we would turn off their computer. And if you came in and your computer didn't turn on, you knew you went home. There wasn't even a conversation.
Chris Cahill :That's called running man, and that's the culture I come from. You sink or swim, and then we would do that until it was down to the cream of the crop. And then we'd hire another group of 25 to 50. And we would turn their computers off.
Gary Wise :Well, that meant we only had winners. So, look, I agree that organizational culture some will allow for more of this churn than others. Right, I mean, look, in the military, unfortunately, you don't get to pick your team. You play the hand that you're dealt. And my chiefs? They used to come to my office and they'd be looking at the ground. I'm like, what are you looking for? They'd be like the plastic, gary. The plastic, because they didn't know if I was going to get them or not. Right, because look, just like you, I'm going to shoot them straight. But you don't get to not come to work tomorrow. You just got to do a different job tomorrow, baby, you don't get to go do that job, no more. I need a new maintenance chief, I need a new mess next monitor, I need something else, and I've got to give you a place that you're going to be able to succeed, because, unfortunately, you're not meeting our expectations over here.
Gary Wise :And talent management was a big part of my role, and part of that talent management is protecting you from yourself, because we again, if we just fired everybody, we'd have nobody on the dang ship, right? But some of those organizations, unfortunately bureaucratic government organizations allow for a lot of people that possibly aren't fully qualified to that other point. If you give someone the position that's not fully qualified, this is the result, right, and their insecurities will will cause them to have a freaking, an obstruction to being fully included because they're afraid of being found out or they're afraid of being freaking, made to look bad in a bad way. I used to tell new chiefs in the like in the navy where they'd be going through this initiation process and I would tell them look now's when we're going to find out if you really know how to do your job or not, because once you become the chief or the gunny or the staff sergeant, there's no covering it up, bro, you either know how to do your MOS or you don't. Right, lisa coming in here and I see Dr Mr Whiteside said you know back to intrusive leadership and possessing the moral courage to be transparent and have honor all day, all day concur, and you've got to be willing to hear that feedback. And you know what else I can deal with someone who needs some help, who even doesn't have all of it there, as long as they're willing to put the work in to get there Right, I can work with that. And then Lisa says they should have a responsibility to do something. We have to hold them accountable for their job. But we've got to hold them accountable for their job. But we got to hold ourselves accountable as leaders to make sure they know how to do that job. And again, we don't back to the hiring process, back to the selection process, and I also think back to the when you first welcome them to the organization what your expectations are, telling them quickly if they're not meeting expectations, so they can either get a get right plan or they can let you know that this is the opportunity for them. And y'all can just break bread and go different ways.
Gary Wise :You know, for me I would prefer to remove the term inclusion Check this out. I would change it with opportunity. If I could change the narrative of these three buzzwords, I would say remove inclusion and put opportunity. And I want everybody in my team to know they have a fair opportunity based on their abilities to accomplish whatever the thing is that's being asked of them Now. Can you rise to that opportunity? I don't know, that's on you. I can only give you opportunities and I can give you resources, but at some point you got to go.
Gary Wise :Like you said, chris, you got to hunt baby, right? Oh, I remember old boy said once upon a time throw me out in the jungle, I'll come back wearing chinchilla. Right, you throw me out. You know, if you can make it in New York City, you can make it anywhere. Remember that energy city. You can make it anywhere. Remember that energy. Absolutely, that's that energy. Right, quit making reasons why you can't win and let me know. And then, if you've got some legit beef, let's cook it up and eat it. Bro, let's have that conversation, because professionals, adults, should be able to use the words. All right, uh.
Gary Wise :Okay, moving on to the next one, here, here we go. Oh, equity, oh, I love equity. Okay, hold on. Before I launch this one, I'm going to read to you what the textbook definition of equity, because I believe people really get it misconstrued right, and I think it matters. Or the book says equity providing fair treatment and opportunities to address inequalities, often through tailored support. That's the textbook definition of equity.
Gary Wise :What do y'all think about that definition? And is equity required in the leadership conversation? And, if so, through what lens are you approaching it? Because we just had this whole conversation about why these professionals or these adults should feel included. Now, again, if I'm working with children, which I do, I will have a lot of grace. If I'm dealing with people that have, unfortunately, like addiction problems, I'll give them some grace. There's some mental health problems there. If I'm dealing with people that have got some serious trauma, because there's probably a lot of things causing them to have deficits, right, I can deal with all those. But I'm thinking about fully functional, fully qualified. You got the job, baby, we're on the team and somebody feels like it's not equitable. What could that mean?
Chris Cahill :So, if I could so, first off, I do think to change the narrative. The word equitable should be changed to just excellence period. However, you need to get there. If you need a ladder to get there, then use a ladder. And so, to be fair, we have the same standard of excellence, but you might need different things to get there. I might need glasses, you might need a ladder, and, as a leader, I should recognize your strengths, your SWOT and your challenges, and then I should work to remove obstacles, to give you the best platform and opportunity to succeed and reach that excellence. That's my job as a leader. It's your job, then, to take those tools and learn them, practice them, study them, homework them, whatever you got to do to hit the standard. But the standard doesn't lower. You have to rise to it, and then, as a leader, I just have to understand what they are, know you well enough, care enough to remove the obstacles so you can succeed.
Gary Wise :Well, and I'm going to back that up with saying one other thing as a leader, and I need to light a fire in you to get you to want to go do that right, because I do absolutely a piece of leadership is to bring in that energy, bring them centered on a why?
Chris Cahill :but if you can create a definition that you're all fighting for a commonality, a common, why then we should have the fire? If you don't have the fire once you know the why again, then you're, then you're off the team but you know, when you focus on those things, you lose sight of the whole equity conversation it doesn't matter right because it's excellent invalid right.
Gary Wise :It becomes like it's all right. What do you think, enrique? Throw the ball to you, bro yeah, equity.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :I see more of a leadership mandate than a personal mandate, right? So equity is that. Hey, I, I got all of you guys to come to watch a baseball game. All right, we're back in the bleachers. It's a seven foot fence and you and I, gary, ain't gonna see nothing because we're five, something right and so vertically challenged so, as a leader, I say, okay, I invited these jokers over here to watch this game.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Do I have something that they can step on so they can enjoy the game with the rest of the seven footers? Right? So that is how I see equity and how I see it as a leadership mandate. If I'm bringing you in and I'm saying everybody's getting a fair shake at this ball game, but I forgot, as a leader, to have some type of vehicle, something to help you get to a point where we all watch this game, then I fail, right. So that's how I see equity is more like a leadership mandate than a personal one. Equity is more like a leadership mandate than a personal one Because I yeah, if I go, and I know there's a nine foot or seven foot fence, I already know going in, I ain't going to watch nothing.
Gary Wise :So you know.
Gary Wise :So, yeah, that's how I see it. You know, for me, I think back on, when I'm trying to get a divisional picture taken, right, I got all my people together and I want to get a photo for the Vine right, for the gram, for the Facebook. We're going to send this out to mommy and daddy. I got all my high school kids ready, we're going to do a picture and then I recognize, well, all these tall kids are in the front because they want to be the front row center, and you got these shorties in the back that are a little more timid or a little more mild. I'm like no, no, no, no, no. If the person in front of you is taller than you, you get around them right now. That's how it's going to go. If I can't see your face, you can't see my camera. You got an obligation to show your, because what happens if later they come around? Hey, mass Chief, I saw that picture you posted, but I didn't get a picture of me because I said, say, cheese, bro, and you weren't listening, dog, what you want me to tell you At some point. I'm trying to maneuver all these things, but one, two, three, cheese click picture over. You had a responsibility and an obligation if you wanted that recognition and you missed the cues and you missed the opportunities. Now you can either get mad, take your ball, want to go home and complain about mass chief, or you can learn from that and the next time you see the camera come out, make sure you get your face seen in that camera. Because and I tell this to my people all the time, I tell this to my sons, I tell this to myself in the mirror Gary, closed mouths don't get fed bro. You got to open your mouth to communicate. If you feel like you're not getting something, that you need to get you across the finish line. And oh, by the way, if for me, if I'm asking for that, it's because, brother, I've done everything I could do. I really have a boss. I need just a little bit of your help and I will get. I will finish this thing for you, and that's value added. I will finish this thing for you, and that's value added.
Gary Wise :What frustrates me is when you got the people who don't want to put the work in, or they expect an engraved invitation for everything and they want people to make them feel like they should come do the work. Get a fair opportunity doesn't mean we all get the same result. They get the result because they put that work in dog. The kids would come ask me, hey, master Chief, how come so-and-so promoted? How come so-and-so promoted? I said because they did the work, they studied for the promotion board. You know what you get. You come ask me, hey, master Chief, can I promote? Yep, let's go.
Gary Wise :All you had to do was ask, because a lot of times people will put these boundaries in front of themselves as their own unfortunate challenges, that their own programming. And again, I will give grace for layers of people. I will. I will give grace. If you've been institutionalized for a long time. You got to deprogram all that. I can work with that right, tell me that up front. But if you're supposed to be a fully functional member on the team, you took the job, you're getting paid. I expect you to put that belt on every day and go to work, bro. And if you're not doing that, we're going to have problems.
Gary Wise :All right, Mr Whiteside said oh my God, I love this one. Know yourself and seek self-improvement. Where we heard that one from. I love that one. Memorized behind their eyelids part of that. They know this and we talk about it and again.
Gary Wise :But here's the other thing. Well, let's just real quick. Inclusion and equity. I think too many people want this, have this false expectation that someone's going to give them a free pass on something if they leverage one of these two things and that's unfortunately where some of these have gotten a bad taste in people's mouths and the reality of it is, you might get the hookup someday. That's true. I mean, look, I love calling their favors for people. I tell my people all the time leverage me, call me up, mass chief. I tell my people all the time leverage me, Call me up, mass Chief. I had a person call me up the other day. Son wants to join the military as an officer. I made a few phone calls, got the officer recruiter on the phone call, made a call in, hooked him up. Yeah, networking helps Knowing people helps.
Chris Cahill :Well, Gary, I've got a guy. I have a guy for everything. So if somebody calls me and says I need a house, I need my HVAC fixed, I need my car fixed, I need insurance, I'm like I got the guy, the thing is.
Gary Wise :you built that network, you put that time in to learn who to call. Or you know, hey, mr Enrique, I don't really know what to do about this situation. Could you help me out with that? That's mentorship, right? If you're feeling like you're in a situation where you're struggling with feeling included, or like you got an equal equity, equitable opportunity, talk to somebody, get a different perspective before you just start having a sourpuss attitude and losing opportunities that could change your life, right? I mean, you know the other thing real quick. I want to backtrack on both of these. I was thinking about Prince David and Bathsheba, right? Because he brings back old boy from the war and is like, hey, why don't you go home and see your wife and old?
Gary Wise :boy's like no why would I do that, bro? My men are not there, that's not fair, right. And he's like but you should just go do that. You could do that, I got you. He's like no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to do that. And so then he sends him back to the war and tells everybody step back on him out there, because that's what happens to people when they don't know that the rest of the team is getting ready to bail on them because something unfair if.
Gary Wise :If you receive an opportunity and you know you're not prepared for it like when I look, I got sent to the george washington once upon a time and I had never had self-contained breathing apparatuses on my ship before. These are firefighter packs. I always had oxygen breathing apparatuses, which are the front loaders. Right, I had done inspections on the SCBAs. I had read books about the SCBAs, but I'd never owned them. Now I owned over a thousand of them.
Gary Wise :Guess what? You know who taught me how to do that maintenance? My sailors. I went to them and, like, y'all got to teach me how to do this, bro. And I built my career of relentlessly trying to just learn how to do it and get in the book and letting them teach me. I could have definitely just like well, I never did SCBAs before. I'm an old school guy and I don't know what to do. Guess what? I would have got fired. Period, right, period, that's an aircraft carrier. You can't do that. And so I think, leaders how important is it that leaders are leading the charge on these initiatives through their own actions? It's everything.
Chris Cahill :Yeah.
Gary Wise :You ever seen a?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :leader come down and complain that it's not fair to their people. Well, you know and that word was what I was just about to say If there's any fair in any of this, it's because it's leader-led. The leaders have to lead this whole thing in a way where it's ensured that it's fair. Then they can actually quantify the reasons why it's fair. Yeah, and then they could actually quantify the reason why it is fair.
Gary Wise :You know why do you think leaders and we've all had this experience why do you believe that there are leaders, people in leadership positions? They got the job to be the leader. Why are they struggling with inclusion or equity? You think?
Chris Cahill :because? Because when it becomes a forced mandate, when you actually have an executive order from the top that says you have to have X Y Z diversity, x Y Z percentage, now you've done away with all fairness, because you now have a forced executive order to hit a certain quota Well, there is nothing fair about quota at all and you've done away with everything we've talked about for the last 45 minutes.
Gary Wise :OK, got it. What do you think, Enrique?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Yeah, I mean sure I back that quota based thing. Is it killed me?
Gary Wise :When I was a recruiter, we were be like did you eat a Taco Bell yesterday? Are you Hispanic? We were doing that when I was a recruiter in 2000, 2001, 2002, because you would get credit if you put in diversity. We're getting to diversity, we're getting there. It was the bone for us to do the wrong thing. Then, as young sailors, our leaders were teaching us to do it because thing. And then, as young sailors, our leaders were teaching us to do it because I was a third class, I was an E4. Somebody taught me to do that right, somebody taught me to do that. And the other thing, though, is I've seen leaders get outgunned at their level right, and, instead of wanting to admit their failure, they come up with some blame, something that is not fair. Like no, bro, you were not prepared for that person's energy in that conversation, and I again, I love watching two of my top tier leaders have a passionate conversation because that means they both care, care yeah right, I throw red meat to the dogs.
Gary Wise :Yeah Right, somebody somebody and they are freaking throwing forks at each other, probably why.
Chris Cahill :That's great.
Gary Wise :I think they're right, they care. We're still going to hug each other later, but we want to be successful and we're all doing our best to advocate. And I've seen I've seen people who unfortunately got to top-tier management positions I think back to Mr Whiteside point where they got promoted and they probably possibly weren't ready for that level of conversation, that level of interaction, that level of I mean conflict, right, to use a buzzword. I like conflict. I ain't afraid of a good conversation. Let's have it. No one's getting shot today, right? I'm not. At least I hope not. Right, like whatever, you never know, it's 2025. But at the end of the day, we're all trying to do the right thing. Okay, so for me, my reframe, chris, yours was excellence, mine is, if I could change equity to being ability. If you've got the ability to do the job, you're physically capable, you're mentally capable, you're emotionally capable, you're technically capable. If you've got all of those abilities, then it's on you. If you don't got those abilities, you need to get there if you want the paycheck.
Chris Cahill :If you summarize everything that we've, you want the paycheck. I think. If you summarize everything that we've said over the last 45 minutes, it goes back to where we started with it's merit-based that's.
Gary Wise :That's it well and putting in the work right, the own internal fortitude to put the work in, to get to where you got to, because none of us on this phone call got to where we are today by everyone just laying out a yellow brick road for us to walk down. We all did something drastic like join the service, went on that journey and then we just kept generating future opportunities. And then here's what I tell the students and then you capitalize on them. I hate nothing worse than when I see people with an opportunity right in front of them and I'll tell them bro, are you going to eat that? Are you going to eat that? Because if you don't eat that, I might eat that.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :You don't want your cornbread.
Gary Wise :Bro, I used to tell people when I was younger I'm a big dog eating all the little dogs food. Right, if you don't want to get where we're going, get out my way, because I got people dependent upon me to bring this energy every day and I don't need you to get me fired up. I'm self-made like that, but I need help to make sure I get a fair playing field, and that's always where I have the most problems is having the fairness equation, people that are taking advantage of one side or the other. All right, here we go. Oh, what do I want to say, mr Weiss? I said I apologize for the Marine Corps lexicon. I served for 41 years, four months and 15 days. Brother, we've all. Hey, 25 years, enrique got a good 25, 26 years, chris is a Marine, we get it.
Gary Wise :And I would tell you, those foundational principles that are the principles of leadership are relevant in every situation and, no matter how much as we've changed as a humanity and society with technology, those principles were as relevant in 1943 as they are today. Those are just human nature principles, right? I used to tell the sailors on the ship bro, I don't care about technology, we go boom tonight and the lights go out, the power goes off, baby, it's 1945. We fighting this thing a lot right, and I'm going home and that's all there is. I'm fighting the ship right. Rule number one don't give up the ship Right. Rule number two read number one again, like don't give up the ship All right and learn how to use iron sights.
Chris Cahill :You don't always have a red dot.
Gary Wise :Yeah, yeah, and learn how to set boundaries. Set boundaries, bro. Okay, next up, here we go. Last one for this topic the D word baby. You know, once upon a time I was on an aircraft carrier, me and this AOC buddy of mine. We were a float training group and we were on aircraft carriers doing assessments, and he was from Oakland.
Gary Wise :I grew up in Utah and we stayed up way too late one night debating diversity in the Chiefs mess and this was back. I think probably it was during the obama election years, so I was like 2008, correct. So just put that in reference, right, it was obama versus romney, as a matter of fact. So that was the context, right. And he was telling me all his perspectives on diversity and and why it matters. And I hear all that. But I'm like bro, but I'm a chief and you a chief Like we both got to the same point. What'd you talk about, dog? Like we're. But it was harder for me. You're taller than I am Like everything he had. I had a counter for him, right, because I'm like we're in the same mess arguing about something that we should be focused, that it's not real for you and I. The reality is what's the mission, how do we work it together? And we had some rules in the chief's message. We don't talk about politics, religion and things that are going to be just constantly divisive, because it's not good for the team, right?
Gary Wise :But I remember having that conversation with him and this is, of course, back. This is back when we still put flash drives in government computers, right? So how much has changed since 2008 until 2025? Right, and technology a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And so I could appreciate where, coming out of the 90s or coming out of the 2000s or the 70s and the 60s and the whatever that there was this perception that there needed to be extra care to ensure everybody got access, no matter what your unfortunately your stereotype was going to be right. If you were a freckle-faced kid, you might not get the same opportunity as the guy with the beach blonde hair and the cinnamon skin, right, just how it go, right. And so I get that. But then, man, with these cell phones nowadays, people can just pop off and be like here's what I think and here's what I know.
Gary Wise :And what happened was we just kept figuring out ways to divide ourselves up, right, and it got so far out of the box that I remember on Ashland not for nothing, not to get into politics, but when they canceled all those dang months, all those different months that you had to do cakes for bro, I cheered at home because I was exhausted, trying to always party plan all the different parties for all the different groups, because it was like we just kept figuring out a new way to divide it. Right, we're going to divide it here and divide it there, and I would tell my chief's mess. Like I'm a leader, bro, I want to focus on what unites us. And if you want to focus on what divides us, you better make it quick. Tell me now what the problem is. Tell me now what the evil is. Tell me now how it's unfair to you. Let me counter and then we're going to let it go, because otherwise there's this term called conscientious objector. Right, if you're going to be a conscientious objector, then don't take this position on my team, because that may not work right.
Gary Wise :On the reverse, I believe that I like to have a whole room full of opinions when I have time, if there's not a crisis, if I don't got a man dying in the sea on the ship we got this thing called the collection holding and transfer tank. It's sewage, okay. So if I have a rupture in my sewage pump room that's going to kill somebody, okay. So I got to get down there very quickly to make sure no one's dying. As soon as I verify no one's dying, I'm going to back out, close all the doors, take all our gear off. I'm going to say what are we going to do about it? Right, because ain't nobody dying? And that's what I would train my guys.
Chris Cahill :In the business world. I do a thing once a month where I do a and you've seen my war room but where I've got the whiteboards and everything. And once a month I've got my team in there and we do vision casting. And I spent a lot of work preparing to how to create an open table for good, constructive dialogue. They don't realize it. They think I'm just standing there asking open-ended questions, but I spent 20 hours figuring out what open-ended questions to ask that hour or whatever. But anyway, leaders do a lot more work than people know that we do. It's like ducks with their feet swimming under the water but on top they look calm, like that's leadership. But anyway, we do these open, these vision casting sessions because you know, what makes you great is the diversity. You know, I think the United States is great because we're a melting pot of diversity. I think Rome was great as a diversity, as they would bring in all these different cultures and when they tried to assimilate everything into one they fell. And I think that could be our weakness as a nation If we forget that diversity is part of what made us so strong and continues to be, I think, a strength as a nation.
Chris Cahill :But at the same point. There's that time, too, where I snap and it's like no, no, no, this isn't Vision Casting Friday, this is client has issue needs to be dealt with right now. There's a deadline, they're not going to close in their house, whatever the situation may be, and that money needs to be wired within 20 minutes, or else, or in that scenario, there is no. Well, you think we should ach it or wire it? Do you think that we should use an edf? No, no, no, I said get it there. Now it's. So. I think there's a time and a place for vision casting, for diversity, for listening to opinions, like you said. And then there's. But there's also a time, like you said, where no, there's, there's a life on the line or a critical you know initiative, and it needs to be dealt with asap. So I think that a good leader can do both, and if all you do is dictate, I I think you're you're losing the strength of the team and the strength of diversity. To bring it back to the point, Before I go to Enrique.
Gary Wise :The one thing that matters for both of those scenarios is there's got to be trust. The people have got to trust. I tell my senators all the time you've got to trust that if I had the time to hear all your opinions I would let that happen. But I don't Go Go now. Trust me and then when you come back, we'll debrief it right. Hey, real quick.
Gary Wise :Mr Whiteside said we have to lead with love, truth and accountability. We ask people to be willing to give their lives, and that's true at least for the armed forces. He said his uncle served 22 and a half years in the Navy. He can only serve as a steward or a cook. That's a fact, right, that's a fact. Carl Brashear looked back it wasn't that long ago that there were some serious problems in our Navy. But we also know and I've taught this a lot of times in the Navy, so I'm proud of this statement they would throw at us some of the most challenging people. Problems first, and let us be the test cases for a result. Which is why, when the Vietnam vets came back, they were so confused with society because they had gone from being, like you know, really good buddies willing to die for each other to all of a sudden. Why are you hanging out with that guy, bro, like what are you doing? And that's just. But unfortunately there was other narratives happening in the country Right, and that was was we were out of that box. The other thing he said his dad was a bosom mate and he cried. And his dad cried when he was told that he could have served in any mos in the navy. And that stain and pain still lingers in society. And I get that man because you know, I think the great depression still kills. A lot of people still struggle with that memory.
Gary Wise :The older generation, a friend of mine, her grandmother, has dementia so she can't talk and she watches a lot of these old TV shows like Westerns, like Gunsmoke or whatever it is. And I was like she really watched all those old shows like that. I wouldn't think that that'd be what she'd be into. She's like Gary, you got to understand where she was a kid. That was all it was on TV. So she grew up. Those were her heroes as a young girl.
Gary Wise :Now, as an old lady who's just stuck in the house all day, can't go nowhere. She, she wants to watch the shows that make her feel almost like that was back in the day and we're not too many generations removed from riding horses. I mean, I was watching Sinners the other night, right, and I was talking to my buddy Clover on one of these podcasts and I was like, bro, when you tell me you live in Georgia and it's like this small town, I think of Sinners. He was like, yeah, gary, just like that, except for this, this and that. But that's two generations ago. That's how it was. So technology is going so fast and you can watch a YouTube video now of a kid in freaking Sudan making a rap song and have completely different perspectives, but our American perspective in particular. We do got some of these things. What do you think, enrique? We're talking about diversity. How do you bring us home?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Yeah, so diversity is one of the pain points in this acronym. It's because it's feeling centric. It's feeling centric. Do you feel like you have a diverse environment? Well, all you got to do is look around and say, yeah, for the most part. Look at this panel right now. Right, it's, it's diverse and and we're all sharing on on this uh item. But when you so, diversity in the military is different from diversity in the common world. It really is. We are one team, one fight. Right, you threw us on a on a boat and the Marines got the gun.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :You know, he's got his stuff and the weather guy, he's telling you if you could go or not. Right, so we got our job. We focus on jobs. We focus on your talents. What do you bring to the fight? All right, let's bring that in there, ok, ok and that's it.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :But when you bring it out into the mainstream, it's a whole lot more tied to history, tied to generational challenges, is tied to current climate, is tied to politics, is tied to all kinds of stuff. So this is a very emotionally tied word and it's hard to overcome sometimes. But my take, and especially from the leader's standpoint diversity of thought is what we should be focusing on. That is where I don't care where you come from. Tell me what you think. All right, okay, I see that. All right, hey, board, put that on there because that one holy smoke, right. And then you go through the team. You don't even look at any of the little intricacies that the world is trying to throw in there. But as a leader, are you willing to give that opportunity for everyone to share their thought? And it's on the leader? You know we can't I can't fight the big world type of dynamic on this, but I sure can control my setting and ensure that that type of diversity is the one that prevails, amen.
Chris Cahill :I watched some of Charlie Kirk's arguments you may have watched some of him. He did some debates on different liberal campuses and stuff like that and I think back to where we started. Everyone on this panel, at least I think, and the people that were chiming in and, I think, most intelligent people I don't know that might be subjective seem to, though, still be on the same page. And that outer narrative that comes from cultural divide, social media, echo chambers and all of those harmful harmful things. They do exist, but as leaders, like you said, it's our job to not care, and it's our job to the best idea goes on the board, you know, or gets voted in, or whatever it is, and it shouldn't. It shouldn't matter all those things, and the only thing that strikes me is odd, gary and this goes back to conversations we've had before You're talking to three people that are in leadership within their life.
Chris Cahill :That's how God made us, but that's not everybody. That might be 10 or 15 or 20 percent of the population. Everyone else is not, and that doesn't mean they're less or more as people. We're all made in God's image, but we have different strengths, and some people were called to be in leadership positions, and that's just how their DNA is made. But my question then is if you had this same panel, or you had a panel of 20 people that were not leaders but were rank and file, and you ask these same questions for an hour, how much different would the answers be? And that's where I'd be curious to see, because, as a leader, I'd like to know well, gee, what is the general population, the populace, the rank and file, really think? Because everything you all said I couldn't disagree with. But if I had 20 people that weren't, would I be sitting here shaking my head, going what is happening?
Gary Wise :So I will tell you, I get the opportunity to work with 180 plus of some of the most diversity. These kids are just so diverse, and I mean height, weight, perspective, music, skin tone, hair, kind, you name it right, there's a billion freaking. I mean I could go down the list right and guess what?
Gary Wise :They never argue about that, they don't, they will argue about you not putting the work in, you're not pulling your weight, you're not doing to hear they'll call each other out left and right and they don't pull punches, bro. And they because because through to be told they're competitive or if you're going to be emotional about everything, you shouldn't be like I'm telling you, don't just straight, handle it. It's a. It's people primarily, unfortunately, adults or people that are pretending to be adults that have fun. My mind, I had this brainwave hit me, bro. They've got funnels and they're trying to focus everybody to go into their funnel and then upsell them on all the things to pay so it goes in their pockets. Because everything in my world is marketing. Now it's going crazy. Right, I don't want to be a marketing guy, but now it's like the matrix I'm seeing the code everywhere.
Chris Cahill :I told you I got into marketing because I hated it and I spent years studying it, just to realize I still hate it.
Gary Wise :And so, as I'm listening to somebody, I'm like what's the dog in the fight for that person? Right, this is where I like I love influential people that are disruptors yeah, me too, because they know they have the ability to purposefully disrupt your programming, to question whether or not you're authentic about what you're doing. Or you're just trying to get the good parking spot, or you're just trying to get access to the good information so you can make some good money for your family. And then they start protecting the little silos. Right, they start protecting the little areas. And look, when I was on the ship, I told my captain I'm not just Tyrion Lannister, I'm also the silo crusher. I will go break those department silos all the way down, because in the chief's mask we don't play those games. Horizontal leadership I do pastoral counseling and I was just going to pray about it and call him the next day but I had to write him a message and I said, bro, that's beautiful.
Chris Cahill :And I said the fact that you're questioning your faith means it matters to you. Back to like what you were saying before, and I said it's the people that are afraid to ask the questions who I would actually be more fearful of because they don't have, maybe, a solid, real faith relationship. They might have religion, but if you have a solid faith relationship, God's not afraid of your questions. But when you're, when you have to put him in a box, and then if somebody says, oh, but I believe this way and it threatens you, then that's not faith, that's just fear and religion. And I said I love the fact that you're questioning brother. I said, keep going. And then this morning he sent me all kinds of great stuff that he was wrestling with all night and it was beautiful. But I guess the point is authenticity matters. Leadership is about giving people the space, though, to be authentic and being authentic yourself, not protecting your funnels, your bubbles, your silos, your parking spaces or anything like that. And I don't know, I might have gone off. No, no, I'm with you.
Gary Wise :So I think for me, as we land this plane on this one, because you know I struggle when I see people that all claim to have similar faith-based precepts, struggle to get aligned over things that seem so silly. Right, like it. Just it bothers me. Like we all can, I can go sit in things that seem so silly, it just bothers me. I could go sit in 90% of the churches in the world and probably be okay, unless you're preaching some serious devil worshiping, I'm not going to be good there, anything else, as long as it's holistically healthy and do good, love one another, take care of people, I could probably get through that. Love God, love one another, it one another, take care of people, I could probably get through that Love God, love one another.
Chris Cahill :It's Jesus. Everything else is nuanced.
Gary Wise :Mr Whiteside says you earn trust with your ears, you lose it with your mouth. We've got to be today's change. Do we all feel accepted? Unity of effort, all good things. Row baby row Right, take the hill Row baby row right Take the hill.
Gary Wise :You're on the team, and that's where I think leaders have got to always come back to the people that are on your team.
Gary Wise :Make them feel included to the best of your ability, but make sure they understand they've got to work their butts off to earn the respect of their peers and to learn what they're doing on the job.
Gary Wise :Can't no one learn that for them? They've got to learn it they're doing on the job. Can't no one learn that for them? They've got to learn it themselves. Right, when it comes to having the ability to have fair treatment or equitable treatment, the leaders are going to say that's my job, I will make that happen, but you have got to let me know if you feel like there's something that you're not getting that you need. If you don't do that for me, then we're not having a fair exchange of information and that's unfair for me and I feel like I'm getting set up as the freaking leader. Bro, and I've been there as a leader. I've had people go. I remember I called in the command climate specialist office one time on the carrier and he was like Gary, you know how, I know you're doing your job. I was like how's that, rory? He's like because people keep complaining about you, bro, and I just had him on the podcast but he was like that's how I know you're doing your job, cause now you're never going to like you when you're a leader. You're going to have and that's the last thing for me People need excuses as to why they're struggling and, unfortunately, an immature person doesn't want to look in the mirror and take accountability always for what they could have done differently. Right, and I believe, especially if you're struggling with with any one of these three things, you probably got some areas you should have done better in your own space. Before you start throwing flags on the play at everybody else and I got so tired of catching everyone's flags, I started throwing the flags back at the person, like, ah, take that, bro, like no. Now, my reframe for diversity is unity, right, I believe opportunity, ability and unity are the three words I would use as a leader, and unity in that I can appreciate we're not all the same gender, the same height, the same weight, have the same interests of the same hobbies, have the same ideas. I got all these things. I could come up with a list of things that divide us as long as my body, but we're all here because we wanted to make a month, to make money, to get a job, to do a thing. Let's work on that, let's work on that. And if you can't do that, then maybe this is not the place for you. Well, you can't say that I just did, bro.
Gary Wise :I tell the people all the time. I tell them maybe you shouldn't come back to my ROTC program next year. We're not the organization for you, but I like it here. Why you don't do nothing? What do you like? You don't want to be on the team, you don't want to get ranked, you don't want to do better. So why? But I want the paycheck. Okay, bro, your pay is going to start getting. I tell the students if you're making A's, you're making money. You're making B's, you barely got gas money. You're making C's, bro, you're paying me to come to work. D's and F's, you're homeless. Like I'm sorry, that's bad. Figure that out, because that's a bad learned behavior. All right, guys, let's wrap it up here.
Gary Wise :I think we nailed it pretty strong. It does, political climate aside, because I do believe a lot of people have unfortunately taken these ideas captive and made them be freaking mantras. That has an agenda that's made them so toxic that they are gone like they're. They're gone. They've weaponized diversity, yeah, yeah, there's no getting them back, at least not the united states of america, and if you're a person who is dead set on holding onto them, my opinion is you're missing the bus.
Gary Wise :Leaders have got to be innovative. They've got to be collaborative and look towards the future, because our job is to lead forward. You can't lead backwards. That's a facade. You're delusional, right, and so I think we have got to figure out a way to lead out of the fog. And that that's my thoughts and I, and I think that the other thing is remembering that we're all. Everybody has their own story. Every human being on this earth has their things that make them unique, that make them special and that make them loved by God, make them loved by their family and make them worthy of getting to know. Right, maybe not always at the right time and place for people, because a lot of people got different things going on, but don't make those be reasons why you can't find success. Make those be the reasons why you have to find that success. Right, all right, what'd you guys? You guys got any alibis, dave Browns.
Chris Cahill :All I know is in my, in my world, this is more of an art, uh, an argument to debate than a reality. I don't live by any of this. I just surround myself with good people and I eliminate weakness from my circle. It's that simple and I could care less where, where you came from, how you were raised. I don't even care what your religion is, although I have a preference and I'd love to talk to you about it. But the reality is, at the end of the day, my mantra is always the same thing. I say it at the end of every email Take the hill.
Gary Wise :Well, and that's to be honest with you, brother healthy boundaries, and that's also why a lot of people like entrepreneurship. Right, because they can really choose who they surround themselves with. And you know this, enrique when you come through an organization, when you don't get to pick the people you're sleeping around, you don't get to pick who you're in the shower next to or brushing your teeth next to. They can be mentally exhausting, emotionally exhausting, and we bring all kinds of baggage right. What you got, enrique.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Yeah, you know, dei has been a thing that I. That's funny because I sent you a thing that I got in the mail.
Gary Wise :I saw that, but I'm not to hustle, bro. I'm not to hustle, I know what you're doing and I respect you for doing it, you're a grinder.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :That's why you're on my advisory board but but the thing is so those awards, dei awards and things like that is because I focus on educating people on the reality of what that is, and so all of us served in one way or capacity in the military. That never came up. There's not one of the 26 years that I served that this was an issue for anything. It wasn't right. So you was either qualified and in the seat or you weren't qualified and out of the seat, and there was no pain. There was no.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :I mean, I'm sure there was some hurt feelings, right, I did go in my command and be like hey, you're an E6. Yeah, you owe, but you ain't doing nothing. You're out right, and I know that hurt. Right, I know that hurt, but I had to do, as a leader, what needed to be done in order to get the most efficient team doing the right thing so that my command can thrive. And that's what I did and so it. You know, it may be a thing outside and I understand that. Uh, but the reframe of tonight was a good way of understanding that a little better.
Gary Wise :I will tell you. And Lisa, I know you're watching this, I know you can chime in because I've called her. She was my immediate superior in command, cmc right. So I called Lisa up and I was like freaking out because, look, what year did you retire, enrique?
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :2015.
Gary Wise :2015. Bro, I'm going to tell you what I became. A CMC 2016 was my first ship, um, but I, I, I could tell you guys horror stories of dei and I, and I will tell you there's a lot of reasons why it got a lot of bad press and it's very and it's made. I've seen people go through hell defending their name, defending, and on both sides, I've seen it be real and I've seen it be unreal. Right, I've seen both. I've been a victim of claims and I've had to be the investigator of claims, right, I've seen it all, and I know Lisa has, and unfortunately, it's because humans can be mean, they can be evil, they can be selfish. They have a narrative and for me, I've always been this way. I've always just called it out. I'd get in a cheese mess, I'd close the doors and the most challenging conversations I would have is supplies got saved over the quarter this month. Give me a freaking body, bro, because engineering can't have it every quarter, because engineering can't have it every quarter, or air can't have it every quarter, and that was the challenge. So, gary, you can't do it like that, but I'd have to. I had to share the wealth, right, and so it's a leadership challenge when you lead large, diverse organizations. I promise y'all it's out there and least it says oh yeah, I can get ugly, but I'd still believe that the core warriors, the ones that were there for the right reasons, they will get past it. They will get past it. When I see people getting excited or getting fired up about a talking point or about a funnel entry point or whatever it is, I just want to be like look man, breathe, breathe, breathe, breathe. It's going to be okay. And what matters to me more is, if it's unfair, here's how you call a flag on the plate. But just make sure, if you're going to throw a flag, that you know what you're doing, because if you're just going to start throwing out random flags in society today, you are going to get called out quickly. That whole, I'm gonna cancel you. It's going. They don't know how to handle the fact that. That's gone right, because it's like remember that, uh, I'm gonna tell on you. I'm gonna tell on you for telling on me, I'm gonna tell on you for telling on me, telling on you and everything. What do I do now? I do now, and leaders have got to slow it down.
Gary Wise :No one's dying. Let's set the boundaries, let's figure out the plan and let's come through it, and then, when it's all said and done, what could we have done better? How could we learn from what's going on? Oh, thank you, lisa. Oh, thank you, lisa. I appreciate it. I love you too, girl. That's what I'm talking about. I don't know, I'm still 5'6 baby all day. I don't change, alright, y'all. I appreciate y'all for joining the conversation. It was a scary one, but I think we did it. I hope that somebody picks up this conversation and they run with it. Whether you turn it into the, I think we just defused the IED. Nobody died today on our watch, right.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :No purple hearts today, buddy.
Gary Wise :Nah, nah. But you know, I just again. For me, a lot of the people that watch my content is my students, and this is exactly the kind of conversation I would have with them in real life, because I want them to be able to be a team that doesn't allow these things to separate them. I tell you, if you want to see America go to a Friday night high school football game and you go to those stands, you ain't going to see nobody worried about no one. None of that, none of that.
Gary Wise :They cheering for the home team, for the high school that they all went to, and they may not hang out every day together, but when're on those stands, they're a community, bro. It's the same way in the church and it's the same way in the schools. I just think we got to figure out a way to stop all these people that are out there trying to pump up their, their crowds, to try to push their narrative, and let them figure out how to make it be about the bigger collective, not all these pocket groups. You know. Bigger conversation for the other side.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Thank you.
Gary Wise :All right guys, I'm gonna wrap it up here Y'all like. Subscribe If you like the channel. Check out Enrique's. What is Enrique? The podcast is developing the leader within right.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Developing the leader within podcast.
Gary Wise :Yeah, check out his podcast. He's doing big things. Just crossed a,000 subscribers. I'm chasing you, bro. I'm on you, I'm coming for you.
Enrique Acosta Gonzalez :Come on, plenty of room, babe.
Gary Wise :Oh, I know we all win. There's plenty of food on the table, right. Plenty of food to eat. All right, Chris man, I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1:Appreciate Godspeed. All right, buddy, believe we can write a story.
